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Mmm... but I think that the photo caption talking about "the next fifteen streamlined locomotives" is potentially (and perhaps unnecessarily) misleading, since it might be taken to imply that this was a batch or run of fifteen. There was a first batch of five blue-with-silver-stripes streamlined locos (6220-6224), which were designed to run with the matching blue-with-silver-striped Coronation Scot carriages, so those are obviously relevant ... the next order for ten locos in the Class were half-and-half, with five more streamliners (6225-6229) and five unstreamlined (6230-6234), but these streamliners were in red with gold striping to match the new planned second-generation version of the train, with more luxurious and prestigious carriages designed to compete with the Pullmans, in LMS-based colours.
That run of five red streamliners is relevant to the Coronation Scot, because the last of them, 6229, was sent over to the USA with the new prototype red-and-gold Coronation Scot carriages on a promotional tour. However, it got marooned over there with them when the war broke out in late 1939, and those carriages didn't get shipped back over here until after the war ('46?), by which time the train was extinct. So I don't think that any of the "red" locos other than 6229 ever had the chance to haul the "red" set of Coronation Scot carriages, as the Coronation Scot. They were on the wrong side of the Atlantic.
Unless LMS ran red locos with the blue carriages, or ran a nominal "Coronation Scot" service using the red locos with other carriages (which I haven't yet checked), I'm not sure how relevant locos subsequent to 6229 are to an article about the train.
As you say, locos 6235-6244 were also ordered as streamliners, but only three of them are listed as having been in service before the war broke out (and we're talking July/August, with Poland invaded on September 1st, so they'd have had a narrow window of opportunity). I don't have the exact date as to when the Coronation Scot stopped running - the sources I have to hand say "the outbreak of the War". I also don't yet know the exact dates at which they started painting/repainting the locos black - the ones that hit the tracks before the war (e.g. City of Birmingham 625) would have been initially crimson, but sources seem to be a bit vague about the initial paint-jobs of the rest of this batch - the people maintaining the "Livery" section of the Wikipedia page on the Coronation Class seem to have chickened out and skipped 6235-6244 altogether, which perhaps suggests some potential uncertainty or disagreement. Sources say that the locos were repainted black "quickly" or "rapidly" after the start of the war, I don't yet know whether this means that any were repainted so quickly that they were already black by the time they went into service ... or not.
My suggestion would be that since this is an article about the train rather than the associated loco class (which has its own, much more detailed and better-sourced page), we initially restrict ourselves to only including information about the first two batches of locos, five blue and five red, 6220-6229, and treat all the locos after 6229 as being assumed to be mostly out of the scope of the article ... unless and until anyone can offer up any info suggesting that any of those post-6229 locos ever ran as part of the train (in which case we look at it again).
I'm going to try to get hold of the LMS book, if any post-6229 locos were involved, hopefully the book might document it. ErkDemon ( talk) 01:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
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cite book}}
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help){{
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help)The article gives the scheduled journey time as 6hrs 30mins, which strikes me as implausibly fast for the 1930s (with an average speed of about 61.5 mph). I note that a source is given, but even reliable sources can be wrong. A scheduled time of about 7hrs 30mins seems more likely. Norvo ( talk) 13:59, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Mmm... but I think that the photo caption talking about "the next fifteen streamlined locomotives" is potentially (and perhaps unnecessarily) misleading, since it might be taken to imply that this was a batch or run of fifteen. There was a first batch of five blue-with-silver-stripes streamlined locos (6220-6224), which were designed to run with the matching blue-with-silver-striped Coronation Scot carriages, so those are obviously relevant ... the next order for ten locos in the Class were half-and-half, with five more streamliners (6225-6229) and five unstreamlined (6230-6234), but these streamliners were in red with gold striping to match the new planned second-generation version of the train, with more luxurious and prestigious carriages designed to compete with the Pullmans, in LMS-based colours.
That run of five red streamliners is relevant to the Coronation Scot, because the last of them, 6229, was sent over to the USA with the new prototype red-and-gold Coronation Scot carriages on a promotional tour. However, it got marooned over there with them when the war broke out in late 1939, and those carriages didn't get shipped back over here until after the war ('46?), by which time the train was extinct. So I don't think that any of the "red" locos other than 6229 ever had the chance to haul the "red" set of Coronation Scot carriages, as the Coronation Scot. They were on the wrong side of the Atlantic.
Unless LMS ran red locos with the blue carriages, or ran a nominal "Coronation Scot" service using the red locos with other carriages (which I haven't yet checked), I'm not sure how relevant locos subsequent to 6229 are to an article about the train.
As you say, locos 6235-6244 were also ordered as streamliners, but only three of them are listed as having been in service before the war broke out (and we're talking July/August, with Poland invaded on September 1st, so they'd have had a narrow window of opportunity). I don't have the exact date as to when the Coronation Scot stopped running - the sources I have to hand say "the outbreak of the War". I also don't yet know the exact dates at which they started painting/repainting the locos black - the ones that hit the tracks before the war (e.g. City of Birmingham 625) would have been initially crimson, but sources seem to be a bit vague about the initial paint-jobs of the rest of this batch - the people maintaining the "Livery" section of the Wikipedia page on the Coronation Class seem to have chickened out and skipped 6235-6244 altogether, which perhaps suggests some potential uncertainty or disagreement. Sources say that the locos were repainted black "quickly" or "rapidly" after the start of the war, I don't yet know whether this means that any were repainted so quickly that they were already black by the time they went into service ... or not.
My suggestion would be that since this is an article about the train rather than the associated loco class (which has its own, much more detailed and better-sourced page), we initially restrict ourselves to only including information about the first two batches of locos, five blue and five red, 6220-6229, and treat all the locos after 6229 as being assumed to be mostly out of the scope of the article ... unless and until anyone can offer up any info suggesting that any of those post-6229 locos ever ran as part of the train (in which case we look at it again).
I'm going to try to get hold of the LMS book, if any post-6229 locos were involved, hopefully the book might document it. ErkDemon ( talk) 01:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help){{
cite book}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help)The article gives the scheduled journey time as 6hrs 30mins, which strikes me as implausibly fast for the 1930s (with an average speed of about 61.5 mph). I note that a source is given, but even reliable sources can be wrong. A scheduled time of about 7hrs 30mins seems more likely. Norvo ( talk) 13:59, 11 August 2015 (UTC)