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This section, added on November 25, 2017, is without citations, is incoherent, incomplete (what are examples of such gifts?) and the last sentence makes no sense. [1] -- Hugh7 ( talk) 08:46, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone know what the ceremony is called (if any) where a monarch proclaims his/her heir to the throne? The heir is not officially crowned or anything (unless to receive a "prince" or "princess" crown); they are only named as the heir. I know it is probably not practiced now, but was during the Middle and Post-Mideval period...? — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:30, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
There are plenty of monarchies missing, denmark included. Can anyone find this information? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.63.34.250 ( talk) 21:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
"In France, the new monarch ascended the throne when the coffin of the previous monarch descended into the vault at Saint Denis Basilica, and the Duke of Uzes proclaimed 'Le Roi est mort, vive le Roi' (French: 'The [old] king is dead; long live the [new] King!')" I thought that French monarchs often forgoed coronation completly, or if they did have one they waited until several years into their reign. Ahassan05 17:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)ahassan05
Curious if anyone thinks it would be beneficial to include in this entry the text from the British Monarchy's current ceremony? Since Britain is the most well-known in the "western world", it would be interesting, I think, to know exactly what the monarch says at the time of his/her coronation.
Especially curious, I guess, since the Wikipedia entry for "Monarchy in Canada" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_in_Canada#Legal_role ) says that the Queen has obligations to her subjects based on the coronation ceremony. (The Monarch's acceptance of her responsibilities to her subjects is symbolised by the Coronation Oath.)
Can anyone help out here? (I'm not very experienced with how Wikipedia contents are written/organized).
What evidence is there the the Russian peasants prayed to the tsar?
I think my edit summaries need clarification. Historically many bishops have been styled "dei gratia episcopus" &c (though I'm not sure about the Pope himself). The formula is often used in the preambles of Papal Bulls too, so it may not be wholly accurate to say that it's never been applied to a Pope. Admittedly it's at least uncommon.
However I don't think that was the point of the paragraph. If you read the whole thing, it's clear that what is being said is not that the by-the-grace-of-God formula was used as an argument for absolutism on its own, but also that a belief that "monarchs were chosen by God" and that "the crown was bestowed by God" was used as an argument for absolutism. Now, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, 'supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls'" [1] and most Catholics believe that Apostolic Succession and the office of Pope were established by Jesus Christ Himself. So even if the Pope isn't actually said to rule "by the grace of God", he is still an example of an absolute head of state whose power is said to derive from God.
Even if you disagree with all of that, I don't see why my edit was reverted, except to try to pick holes in the example used in the edit summary. It's obviously not possible to say that the fact "has ceased to be used as an argument for absolutism" since only one person anywhere in the world need repeat the argument in order to contradict the assertion. My edit was a minor improvement. It's much better to state that the argument "was used" without any pointless and unverifiable claims that it's now never used. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 03:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've hugely expanded and edited this article, but I was unable to find anything definitive about coronations (or lack thereof) for the kings of modern Italy or the emperors of China. While some sources mentioned coronations in Italy, I wasn't able to find anything that I could reference, nor any details on the ceremonies (if any). Also, although I referenced info from more than one source saying that Emperors of Austria weren't crowned as such, I have seen some drawings of earlier Austrian rulers (Maria Teresa, etc.) being crowned, so I'm not sure what to make of that. If anyone has any info on these subjects, or any other part of this article, please feel free to add it! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 17:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I am going to have to fail this article's GA nomination, due mainly to referencing issues, but also to other MOS and style concerns. Below is a list of some issues that I found in a check of the article:
These are the main issues that I saw on a quick run through of the article. When these concerns have been taken care of, please re-nominate this article for GA. If you have any questions, please let me know on my talk page. Dana boomer ( talk) 21:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Part of the GA review for this article questioned a lack of references in the section entitled "The ceremony". Much of the information therein was redundant, being mentined earlier in the lead section, or in later parts devoted to specific countries. Hence, in the interests of length as well as of article quality, I felt it best to simply delete most of it, keeping only the portion dealing with the legal issues involved. However, if any other editors disagree with this decision, please feel free to reinsert and/or edit it. - Ecjmartin ( talk) 17:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have concerns about this entire section. All links are to YouTube, and all footage is presumably copyrighted, therefore subject to immediate removal from YT. Should we perhaps remove this section, as it's impossible to predict whether or not it will be useful (i.e. dead links) on a day to day basis? Prince of Canada t | c 04:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
We moved most of the images in the article to the right side, per MOS requirements regarding placement of images in sections. My question is: since we have consolidated the formerly separate country sections into continental sections, would it be MOS-okay to move some of the images to the left within each "continental" section, to create a more "balanced" look to the article? It's not really a big deal, either way; just an ascetical issue, really. - Ecjmartin ( talk) 14:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Ecjmartin has asked me to look over the article again in light of my comments on problems that resulted in the GA-fail of the article last time. The article is much improved since the last time I looked at the article, but I still have a few concerns on its readiness for GA. These include:
Anyways, these are my comments. Let me know if you have any other questions. Dana boomer ( talk) 17:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd be interested in soliciting opinions from contributing editors to this article as to whether any of you think it is ready for a crack at "FA" or even just "A" class status. If you don't think so, what do you think it needs to make that jump? Thanks for your replies! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 16:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Why should we have seperate sections for the United Kingdom and Scotland, with no section for England? It now looks like England and the UK are the same, while Scotland is something completely unrelated. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:53, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
The article is too long and I am not sure what's the criteria for inclusion. The article discusses customs of states that have never had coronations, which is pointless. Why should it say anything about Japan, Luxembourg, Monaco, Bavaria, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Greece, Bhutan, and other countries which have never had coronations? The information about enthronements should be moved to the article about enthronement. This article should only state that those countries never had coronations and that's it. While it discusses customs of countries which have never had coronations, the article ignores former states that had coronations (Kingdom of Croatia, Kingdom of Naples, Kingdom of Sicily, Kingdom of Montenegro, etc). Surtsicna ( talk) 22:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Roux. Much of the public tends to believe that kings--whatever countries they may still remain in--are still crowned upon their assuming the throne; hence the inclusion of all monarchies, past and present, including those who don't crown their rulers anymore (such as Spain and Portugal), those who offer some other kind of ascension ceremony (such as Holland, Norway, and Sweden), and those who never crowned their rulers to begin with (such as Bulgaria, Belgium, and Greece). As Roux (who deserves a lot of credit for the work he did on this article!) has indicated, this article is very clear about describing different types of ascension ceremonies, whether they involve an actual crowning or not. While I can see the point you make, Surtsicna, about moving some of these entries to the Enthronement page, I really believe they should all remain here, as I think most readers will come here first to look for information on any particular country. Since (as Roux pointed out) the entries distinguish clearly between different types of ceremonies (crowning and non-crowning), I think it would be better to leave them all here than to have people going back and forth between two different articles. That, at least, is my opinion. BTW, Surtsicna, thanks very much for the contributions you've made to this article! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 18:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Where can I mention that Maria of Hungary, Hedwig of Poland and Maria Theresa of Hungary & Bohemia were crowned kings of their respective kingdoms? In my opinion, the fact that women were sometimes crowned kings instead of being crowned queens is notable. Surtsicna ( talk) 15:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I also plan to write something about coronations being used to ensure smooth successiona nd to legitimaze the heir's right to rule ( Henry the Young King, French kings, etc). I'd appreciate help with referencing. Thanks! Surtsicna ( talk) 16:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
The section is unclear. In the first paragraph it says that he was enthroned, while the second paragraph says that he was crowned. Surtsicna ( talk) 10:53, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
"Four centuries after the coronation of Henry the Young King, Anne Boleyn was crowned Queen of England with St. Edward's crown (which had previously been used to crown only a reigning monarch) because Anne's pregnancy was visible by then and she was carrying the heir who was presumed to be male. Thus, Anne's coronation did not only legitimaze her right to enjoy the title and prerogatives of Queen of England, but also her unborn child's right to be crowned as monarch with St. Edward's Crown one day. <ref name="Hunt">{{cite book |last=Hunt |first=Alice |title=The Drama of Coronation: Medieval Ceremony in Early Modern England |publisher=Cambridge University Press |location=UK |date=2008 |edition= |isbn=0226791459 |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=z5eZBJ6UXiAC&dq=The+Drama+of+Coronation&lr=&source=gbs_navlinks_s |accessdate=2009-06-24}}</ref>"
This is a paragraph I wanted to insert in "Coronation of heir apparent" section, but is it notable enough to be included in this article? Surtsicna ( talk) 18:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
← Oh boy, this should be fun, explaining preecisely why everything you just wrote is a) wrong, and b) proof of what I have been saying to you.
Of course, there's a common thread running through all of that: other editors who actually par attention to what is said and address it, as opposed to stubbornly repeating their same point over and over without anything to back it up, while simultaneously inserting poorly-written and awfully-referenced material into the article, not to mention removing chunks of work by other people due to impatience with edit conflicts. It would also be rather more believable that you were here to work collaboratively if you didn't passive-aggressively try to make 'fresh starts' only to dive right into the insults and snide comments immediately. Your behaviour here has been remarkably poor, and while you may try to make the same comment about me, it would behoove you to notice that I have only become short with you after your poor behaviour, and not before.
Finally, to return to your outlandish personal attack--saying I only inserted the information out of spite--no, I did not, not that defending myself to you is necessary. I inserted the information because it's interesting due to the fact that Queens Consort are generally only crowned in a simple ceremony, and most certainly never with St Edwards' Crown. That Anne Boleyn was is a historical curiosity, and while it is indeed related to the coronation of heirs apparent, it does not belong in that section because that section is explicitly only about coronation of heirs apparent. And unlike the title of this article, there is not another meaning for 'coronation of heirs apparent' in common usage; there is one meaning and one meaning only. So no, there is actually no inconsistency in my position, despite your attacks to the contrary.
If indeed you do wish a fresh start, I'm happy to grant you one. It is incumbent upon you, however, to modify your behaviour accordingly. Again, you'll notice that when I am given respect and conversation from someone who actually engages in conversation, I return that respect. It is when you make attacks, snide comments, and stubbornly repeat the same thing over and over without any argument bolstering your position that you will be treated precisely as you deserve. I bear you no animosity, but I abhor your technique here on this page and others. // roux 02:04, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I did not remove the image of Peter of Serbia after his coronation because it did not depict his coronation. I removed it because very little is written about Serbian coronations. As there is no enough text, the image of Peter pushes the image beneath it, which makes that part of the article crowded with images. I tried placing one of the images on the left, but it still doesn't look nice. Though I won't insist on removing the image if you think it looks fine. Surtsicna ( talk) 11:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Despite being the person who removed a bunch of the headings months ago, over the past few days it's become apparent that the sections as they were had far too much text in them, making editing them unwieldy.
Accordingly, I have changed each country to a level 4 (====) heading to give each subsection its own edit link, and have added a custom TOC, suppressing the MediaWiki-generated table of contents (using __NOTOC__). Unfortunately, this had to be hand-coded, as the nearest template available ({{ CompactTOC8}}) allows for only 16 custom fields, and we needed more--I didn't think that an alphabetical listing would be of much use to readers. Comments? // roux 06:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I hate bringing this up, but it needs to be dealt with, immediately. In this diff, Surtsicna inserted the following text:
Before Sweden became hereditary monarchy, the coronation did not center on the body of the new monarch, but on transforming an elected king into a legitimate monarch.
She cited this book as the source, ( link to the specific page) which states:
In Sweden, on the other hand, where hereditary monarchy was introduced only in 1534, the coronation did not centre on the sacred body of the monarch, but on transforming an elected man into a legitimate ruler.
I have bolded the identical text. This is a really serious problem. We cannot plagiarise sources ever. Surtsicna, I am not sure if this is a language barrier issue or if you are unfamiliar with how we must attribute statements to sources. Given how much text you have added in the last week, how much of it follows the source text this closely? We need to ensure that everything written here is either a direct quote with attribution, or our own words with attribution. This sort of minor rephrasing cannot be used, and is in violation of our copyright policies.
I have already rewritten the passage and attributed it more properly.
In addition, I am concerned about your writing re: Boleyn. Do you own the book in question? I have been unable to find in the Google Books version any mention that the coronation of Boleyn had anything to do with her unborn child. In fact, everything I have found in the book has been arguing the contention that her coronation was about demonstrating Henry's independence of the Papacy after the break from Rome. Perhaps I am searching wrong, and if so, could you please provide a direct link to the text which supports what you wrote, or a quotation from the text if it is in your possession? // roux 19:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
The current monarch of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand was crowned as such on 2 June 1953. Where should we mention this? Creating several sections just to say the same thing in each of them is out of the question (and so is ignoring this fact). Elizabeth II's coronation oath included those realms. This is the link I was given on Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom#Coronation as reference.
Would simply mentioning these countries in the United Kingdom section be a violation of NPOV?
Surtsicna ( talk) 20:54, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
There are, it turns out, quite a few published sources on the coronation ceremony there: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11]. It will just require a little work transcribing and citing them. - Biruitorul Talk 18:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
This article, although very informative, is way too big and large. I would propose removing the largest part of sections that have their own articles, instead of repeating information that is already there. Gryffindor ( talk) 20:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
To me, the article - whilst very informative - is still extremely long & unwieldy. I'd suggest drastic action, such as removing the following to their own articles:
The remainder would be IMHO a manageable length for an article. What do others think? Trafford09 ( talk) 22:16, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
See below section, on "Major-league reorganization". - Ecjmartin ( talk) 01:18, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi to Ecjmartin. The above splitting as you describe is just what I was thinking. With links to each 'sub'-article, and of course links from those back to the 'master' article. That way, none of the good information is lost at all, and the master article is a convenient focal point for info. of a general nature. May I thank you for all your efforts to date on this article (& no doubt others). I'll keep out of doing edits here myself, as I'm sure your aims are spot-on. But I'll follow developments with interest. Thanks, Trafford09 ( talk) 11:00, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh - sorry - I see you've been super-quick-off-the-mark & made the sub-articles. Bravo. I'll take a perusal at them. The main article now is IMHO an ideal size. Trafford09 ( talk) 11:05, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I removed the image from the Portugal section because (a) it purports to describe an event that is itself only legendary, unsubstantiated as to its authenticity (see article on Peter I of Portugal), and (b) its inclusion leaves a large "blank space" in the article. I liked the image--liked it a lot, actually, as the story is quite interesting, but due to its unsubstantiated nature (and the big blank space), I felt it would be better to remove it. If anyone disagrees, please feel free to revert my edit; no offense taken. I'm going to put that image into the article on Peter I (where the incident is clearly shown as legendary). - Ecjmartin ( talk) 17:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I authored a huge chunk of this article, originally, and I wholeheartedly agree with the previous writer and those others who have weighed in on this subject: it's just too long. Hence, I did as the previous writer suggested, and broke down the specific nations' coronation ceremonies into smaller articles arranged by continent (or region, in the case of Oceania). However, in the process of creating a couple of the new sub-articles, I jacked up some of the references, and since I know nothing about that kind of referencing, I'd like to ask if someone who does can go in behind me and fix those, if you would. Any other editors or readers are welcome to weigh in with their comments, observations, or suggestions. - Ecjmartin ( talk) 01:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
AWESOME work!!! I just took care of "dressing up" the new articles, staggering the images as needed, ensuring that there's at least one image (two, in the European article) at the top of each article, etc. I did italicize and make a single word change to your notes at the top of each new article; I think it will look better this way, but if you think otherwise, feel free to un-italicize them if you wish. Thanks again for all of your hard work--I think this new setup will work much better now, and I agree it's been needed for a long time!! Cheers! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 00:11, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
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Would this be an appropriate place to discuss the role of oaths of office in republics which essentially replaced coronations? In the US the President can't take office until he takes the oath. Emperor001 ( talk) 18:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
This is incorrect. The investiture of the Prince of Wales is not a case of the coronation of an heir during the lifetime of their parent. The investiture is just that, an investiture. It is properly an example of the investiture which formerly (until the early seventeenth century) was used for all peers of the realm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.211.76.127 ( talk) 06:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA from 2008. There's quite a lot of uncited material in the article. Onegreatjoke ( talk) 18:23, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Coronation was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||
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This section, added on November 25, 2017, is without citations, is incoherent, incomplete (what are examples of such gifts?) and the last sentence makes no sense. [1] -- Hugh7 ( talk) 08:46, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone know what the ceremony is called (if any) where a monarch proclaims his/her heir to the throne? The heir is not officially crowned or anything (unless to receive a "prince" or "princess" crown); they are only named as the heir. I know it is probably not practiced now, but was during the Middle and Post-Mideval period...? — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:30, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
There are plenty of monarchies missing, denmark included. Can anyone find this information? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.63.34.250 ( talk) 21:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC).
"In France, the new monarch ascended the throne when the coffin of the previous monarch descended into the vault at Saint Denis Basilica, and the Duke of Uzes proclaimed 'Le Roi est mort, vive le Roi' (French: 'The [old] king is dead; long live the [new] King!')" I thought that French monarchs often forgoed coronation completly, or if they did have one they waited until several years into their reign. Ahassan05 17:00, 16 February 2006 (UTC)ahassan05
Curious if anyone thinks it would be beneficial to include in this entry the text from the British Monarchy's current ceremony? Since Britain is the most well-known in the "western world", it would be interesting, I think, to know exactly what the monarch says at the time of his/her coronation.
Especially curious, I guess, since the Wikipedia entry for "Monarchy in Canada" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarchy_in_Canada#Legal_role ) says that the Queen has obligations to her subjects based on the coronation ceremony. (The Monarch's acceptance of her responsibilities to her subjects is symbolised by the Coronation Oath.)
Can anyone help out here? (I'm not very experienced with how Wikipedia contents are written/organized).
What evidence is there the the Russian peasants prayed to the tsar?
I think my edit summaries need clarification. Historically many bishops have been styled "dei gratia episcopus" &c (though I'm not sure about the Pope himself). The formula is often used in the preambles of Papal Bulls too, so it may not be wholly accurate to say that it's never been applied to a Pope. Admittedly it's at least uncommon.
However I don't think that was the point of the paragraph. If you read the whole thing, it's clear that what is being said is not that the by-the-grace-of-God formula was used as an argument for absolutism on its own, but also that a belief that "monarchs were chosen by God" and that "the crown was bestowed by God" was used as an argument for absolutism. Now, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, 'supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls'" [1] and most Catholics believe that Apostolic Succession and the office of Pope were established by Jesus Christ Himself. So even if the Pope isn't actually said to rule "by the grace of God", he is still an example of an absolute head of state whose power is said to derive from God.
Even if you disagree with all of that, I don't see why my edit was reverted, except to try to pick holes in the example used in the edit summary. It's obviously not possible to say that the fact "has ceased to be used as an argument for absolutism" since only one person anywhere in the world need repeat the argument in order to contradict the assertion. My edit was a minor improvement. It's much better to state that the argument "was used" without any pointless and unverifiable claims that it's now never used. -- Lo2u ( T • C) 03:06, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I've hugely expanded and edited this article, but I was unable to find anything definitive about coronations (or lack thereof) for the kings of modern Italy or the emperors of China. While some sources mentioned coronations in Italy, I wasn't able to find anything that I could reference, nor any details on the ceremonies (if any). Also, although I referenced info from more than one source saying that Emperors of Austria weren't crowned as such, I have seen some drawings of earlier Austrian rulers (Maria Teresa, etc.) being crowned, so I'm not sure what to make of that. If anyone has any info on these subjects, or any other part of this article, please feel free to add it! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 17:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I am going to have to fail this article's GA nomination, due mainly to referencing issues, but also to other MOS and style concerns. Below is a list of some issues that I found in a check of the article:
These are the main issues that I saw on a quick run through of the article. When these concerns have been taken care of, please re-nominate this article for GA. If you have any questions, please let me know on my talk page. Dana boomer ( talk) 21:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Part of the GA review for this article questioned a lack of references in the section entitled "The ceremony". Much of the information therein was redundant, being mentined earlier in the lead section, or in later parts devoted to specific countries. Hence, in the interests of length as well as of article quality, I felt it best to simply delete most of it, keeping only the portion dealing with the legal issues involved. However, if any other editors disagree with this decision, please feel free to reinsert and/or edit it. - Ecjmartin ( talk) 17:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have concerns about this entire section. All links are to YouTube, and all footage is presumably copyrighted, therefore subject to immediate removal from YT. Should we perhaps remove this section, as it's impossible to predict whether or not it will be useful (i.e. dead links) on a day to day basis? Prince of Canada t | c 04:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
We moved most of the images in the article to the right side, per MOS requirements regarding placement of images in sections. My question is: since we have consolidated the formerly separate country sections into continental sections, would it be MOS-okay to move some of the images to the left within each "continental" section, to create a more "balanced" look to the article? It's not really a big deal, either way; just an ascetical issue, really. - Ecjmartin ( talk) 14:10, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Ecjmartin has asked me to look over the article again in light of my comments on problems that resulted in the GA-fail of the article last time. The article is much improved since the last time I looked at the article, but I still have a few concerns on its readiness for GA. These include:
Anyways, these are my comments. Let me know if you have any other questions. Dana boomer ( talk) 17:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd be interested in soliciting opinions from contributing editors to this article as to whether any of you think it is ready for a crack at "FA" or even just "A" class status. If you don't think so, what do you think it needs to make that jump? Thanks for your replies! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 16:14, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Why should we have seperate sections for the United Kingdom and Scotland, with no section for England? It now looks like England and the UK are the same, while Scotland is something completely unrelated. Surtsicna ( talk) 18:53, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
The article is too long and I am not sure what's the criteria for inclusion. The article discusses customs of states that have never had coronations, which is pointless. Why should it say anything about Japan, Luxembourg, Monaco, Bavaria, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Greece, Bhutan, and other countries which have never had coronations? The information about enthronements should be moved to the article about enthronement. This article should only state that those countries never had coronations and that's it. While it discusses customs of countries which have never had coronations, the article ignores former states that had coronations (Kingdom of Croatia, Kingdom of Naples, Kingdom of Sicily, Kingdom of Montenegro, etc). Surtsicna ( talk) 22:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Roux. Much of the public tends to believe that kings--whatever countries they may still remain in--are still crowned upon their assuming the throne; hence the inclusion of all monarchies, past and present, including those who don't crown their rulers anymore (such as Spain and Portugal), those who offer some other kind of ascension ceremony (such as Holland, Norway, and Sweden), and those who never crowned their rulers to begin with (such as Bulgaria, Belgium, and Greece). As Roux (who deserves a lot of credit for the work he did on this article!) has indicated, this article is very clear about describing different types of ascension ceremonies, whether they involve an actual crowning or not. While I can see the point you make, Surtsicna, about moving some of these entries to the Enthronement page, I really believe they should all remain here, as I think most readers will come here first to look for information on any particular country. Since (as Roux pointed out) the entries distinguish clearly between different types of ceremonies (crowning and non-crowning), I think it would be better to leave them all here than to have people going back and forth between two different articles. That, at least, is my opinion. BTW, Surtsicna, thanks very much for the contributions you've made to this article! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 18:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Where can I mention that Maria of Hungary, Hedwig of Poland and Maria Theresa of Hungary & Bohemia were crowned kings of their respective kingdoms? In my opinion, the fact that women were sometimes crowned kings instead of being crowned queens is notable. Surtsicna ( talk) 15:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I also plan to write something about coronations being used to ensure smooth successiona nd to legitimaze the heir's right to rule ( Henry the Young King, French kings, etc). I'd appreciate help with referencing. Thanks! Surtsicna ( talk) 16:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
The section is unclear. In the first paragraph it says that he was enthroned, while the second paragraph says that he was crowned. Surtsicna ( talk) 10:53, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
"Four centuries after the coronation of Henry the Young King, Anne Boleyn was crowned Queen of England with St. Edward's crown (which had previously been used to crown only a reigning monarch) because Anne's pregnancy was visible by then and she was carrying the heir who was presumed to be male. Thus, Anne's coronation did not only legitimaze her right to enjoy the title and prerogatives of Queen of England, but also her unborn child's right to be crowned as monarch with St. Edward's Crown one day. <ref name="Hunt">{{cite book |last=Hunt |first=Alice |title=The Drama of Coronation: Medieval Ceremony in Early Modern England |publisher=Cambridge University Press |location=UK |date=2008 |edition= |isbn=0226791459 |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=z5eZBJ6UXiAC&dq=The+Drama+of+Coronation&lr=&source=gbs_navlinks_s |accessdate=2009-06-24}}</ref>"
This is a paragraph I wanted to insert in "Coronation of heir apparent" section, but is it notable enough to be included in this article? Surtsicna ( talk) 18:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
← Oh boy, this should be fun, explaining preecisely why everything you just wrote is a) wrong, and b) proof of what I have been saying to you.
Of course, there's a common thread running through all of that: other editors who actually par attention to what is said and address it, as opposed to stubbornly repeating their same point over and over without anything to back it up, while simultaneously inserting poorly-written and awfully-referenced material into the article, not to mention removing chunks of work by other people due to impatience with edit conflicts. It would also be rather more believable that you were here to work collaboratively if you didn't passive-aggressively try to make 'fresh starts' only to dive right into the insults and snide comments immediately. Your behaviour here has been remarkably poor, and while you may try to make the same comment about me, it would behoove you to notice that I have only become short with you after your poor behaviour, and not before.
Finally, to return to your outlandish personal attack--saying I only inserted the information out of spite--no, I did not, not that defending myself to you is necessary. I inserted the information because it's interesting due to the fact that Queens Consort are generally only crowned in a simple ceremony, and most certainly never with St Edwards' Crown. That Anne Boleyn was is a historical curiosity, and while it is indeed related to the coronation of heirs apparent, it does not belong in that section because that section is explicitly only about coronation of heirs apparent. And unlike the title of this article, there is not another meaning for 'coronation of heirs apparent' in common usage; there is one meaning and one meaning only. So no, there is actually no inconsistency in my position, despite your attacks to the contrary.
If indeed you do wish a fresh start, I'm happy to grant you one. It is incumbent upon you, however, to modify your behaviour accordingly. Again, you'll notice that when I am given respect and conversation from someone who actually engages in conversation, I return that respect. It is when you make attacks, snide comments, and stubbornly repeat the same thing over and over without any argument bolstering your position that you will be treated precisely as you deserve. I bear you no animosity, but I abhor your technique here on this page and others. // roux 02:04, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I did not remove the image of Peter of Serbia after his coronation because it did not depict his coronation. I removed it because very little is written about Serbian coronations. As there is no enough text, the image of Peter pushes the image beneath it, which makes that part of the article crowded with images. I tried placing one of the images on the left, but it still doesn't look nice. Though I won't insist on removing the image if you think it looks fine. Surtsicna ( talk) 11:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
Despite being the person who removed a bunch of the headings months ago, over the past few days it's become apparent that the sections as they were had far too much text in them, making editing them unwieldy.
Accordingly, I have changed each country to a level 4 (====) heading to give each subsection its own edit link, and have added a custom TOC, suppressing the MediaWiki-generated table of contents (using __NOTOC__). Unfortunately, this had to be hand-coded, as the nearest template available ({{ CompactTOC8}}) allows for only 16 custom fields, and we needed more--I didn't think that an alphabetical listing would be of much use to readers. Comments? // roux 06:13, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I hate bringing this up, but it needs to be dealt with, immediately. In this diff, Surtsicna inserted the following text:
Before Sweden became hereditary monarchy, the coronation did not center on the body of the new monarch, but on transforming an elected king into a legitimate monarch.
She cited this book as the source, ( link to the specific page) which states:
In Sweden, on the other hand, where hereditary monarchy was introduced only in 1534, the coronation did not centre on the sacred body of the monarch, but on transforming an elected man into a legitimate ruler.
I have bolded the identical text. This is a really serious problem. We cannot plagiarise sources ever. Surtsicna, I am not sure if this is a language barrier issue or if you are unfamiliar with how we must attribute statements to sources. Given how much text you have added in the last week, how much of it follows the source text this closely? We need to ensure that everything written here is either a direct quote with attribution, or our own words with attribution. This sort of minor rephrasing cannot be used, and is in violation of our copyright policies.
I have already rewritten the passage and attributed it more properly.
In addition, I am concerned about your writing re: Boleyn. Do you own the book in question? I have been unable to find in the Google Books version any mention that the coronation of Boleyn had anything to do with her unborn child. In fact, everything I have found in the book has been arguing the contention that her coronation was about demonstrating Henry's independence of the Papacy after the break from Rome. Perhaps I am searching wrong, and if so, could you please provide a direct link to the text which supports what you wrote, or a quotation from the text if it is in your possession? // roux 19:06, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
The current monarch of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand was crowned as such on 2 June 1953. Where should we mention this? Creating several sections just to say the same thing in each of them is out of the question (and so is ignoring this fact). Elizabeth II's coronation oath included those realms. This is the link I was given on Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom#Coronation as reference.
Would simply mentioning these countries in the United Kingdom section be a violation of NPOV?
Surtsicna ( talk) 20:54, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
There are, it turns out, quite a few published sources on the coronation ceremony there: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11]. It will just require a little work transcribing and citing them. - Biruitorul Talk 18:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
This article, although very informative, is way too big and large. I would propose removing the largest part of sections that have their own articles, instead of repeating information that is already there. Gryffindor ( talk) 20:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
To me, the article - whilst very informative - is still extremely long & unwieldy. I'd suggest drastic action, such as removing the following to their own articles:
The remainder would be IMHO a manageable length for an article. What do others think? Trafford09 ( talk) 22:16, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
See below section, on "Major-league reorganization". - Ecjmartin ( talk) 01:18, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi to Ecjmartin. The above splitting as you describe is just what I was thinking. With links to each 'sub'-article, and of course links from those back to the 'master' article. That way, none of the good information is lost at all, and the master article is a convenient focal point for info. of a general nature. May I thank you for all your efforts to date on this article (& no doubt others). I'll keep out of doing edits here myself, as I'm sure your aims are spot-on. But I'll follow developments with interest. Thanks, Trafford09 ( talk) 11:00, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh - sorry - I see you've been super-quick-off-the-mark & made the sub-articles. Bravo. I'll take a perusal at them. The main article now is IMHO an ideal size. Trafford09 ( talk) 11:05, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
I removed the image from the Portugal section because (a) it purports to describe an event that is itself only legendary, unsubstantiated as to its authenticity (see article on Peter I of Portugal), and (b) its inclusion leaves a large "blank space" in the article. I liked the image--liked it a lot, actually, as the story is quite interesting, but due to its unsubstantiated nature (and the big blank space), I felt it would be better to remove it. If anyone disagrees, please feel free to revert my edit; no offense taken. I'm going to put that image into the article on Peter I (where the incident is clearly shown as legendary). - Ecjmartin ( talk) 17:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I authored a huge chunk of this article, originally, and I wholeheartedly agree with the previous writer and those others who have weighed in on this subject: it's just too long. Hence, I did as the previous writer suggested, and broke down the specific nations' coronation ceremonies into smaller articles arranged by continent (or region, in the case of Oceania). However, in the process of creating a couple of the new sub-articles, I jacked up some of the references, and since I know nothing about that kind of referencing, I'd like to ask if someone who does can go in behind me and fix those, if you would. Any other editors or readers are welcome to weigh in with their comments, observations, or suggestions. - Ecjmartin ( talk) 01:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
AWESOME work!!! I just took care of "dressing up" the new articles, staggering the images as needed, ensuring that there's at least one image (two, in the European article) at the top of each article, etc. I did italicize and make a single word change to your notes at the top of each new article; I think it will look better this way, but if you think otherwise, feel free to un-italicize them if you wish. Thanks again for all of your hard work--I think this new setup will work much better now, and I agree it's been needed for a long time!! Cheers! - Ecjmartin ( talk) 00:11, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
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Would this be an appropriate place to discuss the role of oaths of office in republics which essentially replaced coronations? In the US the President can't take office until he takes the oath. Emperor001 ( talk) 18:58, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
This is incorrect. The investiture of the Prince of Wales is not a case of the coronation of an heir during the lifetime of their parent. The investiture is just that, an investiture. It is properly an example of the investiture which formerly (until the early seventeenth century) was used for all peers of the realm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.211.76.127 ( talk) 06:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA from 2008. There's quite a lot of uncited material in the article. Onegreatjoke ( talk) 18:23, 6 May 2023 (UTC)