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In top right of main page there are two conflicting lists of populaton, density and admin pop. - which list is correct?
The links at 8, 9 and 10 in the "References" do not work - does anyone have correct links?
DuncanHill
20:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Is the difference not the difference in population between the traditional county (which includes the Scillies) and the administrative county (which doesn't)? Esquimo 10:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello Everyone, I have been thinking long and hard about this UK / England business. I think when we present information in wikipedia we have a big responsibility because many internet users use this as a source for information. Firstly I agree there is strong feeling in Cornwall about its unique status and seperation from England - I feel it, support it and am actively involved in campaigning to sort it out. However we need to also consider political fact, at the moment Cornwall is subject to English and Welsh Law on a day to day basis and the control of UK government, natural Cornish Law (stannary etc) although never repealed is actively ignored by the UK authorities. Essentially we are in a big constitutional and poltical mess made worse by centuries of bumbling and self interest all we can do is examine the hard facts
My proposal would be that a common description should be something like this
[Town Name], Cornwall, England (disputed), UK.
The 'disputed' would then link to the 'constitutional status of cornwall page' with a mature debate about history, current position etc. I don't like it any more than Pediac does to be truthfull !! If I was presenting my own work only I would say that Cornwall alone was sufficient but I am not and we need to be balanced however personally distasteful we find another position user:reedgunner
Hi,
Could we please have some help over in Penwith regarding the Cornwall/England/United Kingdom issue? I'm sure that this must have been discussed to death here somewhere. Essentially there is some debate ( Talk:Carbis Bay, St Just in Penwith, User Talk:Steinsky, User Talk:Pediac) over how settlements in Cornwall should be described. To summarise, one side believes that only England should be used in the description (e.g. Exampleville, Cornwall, England) whilst the other thinks that Exampleville, Cornwall, United Kingdom is a more complete designation. The first side argues that using England alone makes these articles consistent with other pages on English towns. Whilst it is true that towns in England generally use the England tag rather than Uk, in contrast, pages written for Cornish towns more often use the Uk designation, and Wikipedia is supposed to be about consensus. I suppose that there are two issue here 1) Constitutional status of Cornwall and a soapbox for Cornish/English nationalist sentiment 2)Using Uk is technically more concise, as it contains more information, and that actually the Uk is the sovereign state (signs treaties, passes laws etc) not England, which is not an independent country (yet!). I have suggested a compromise between the two designations (e.g.Exampleville, Cornwall, England; a constituent of the United Kingdom) which I personally think is a bit longwinded but at least addresses both points of view. It would be really great if we could have some fresh heads look at this, especially as it is likley already to have been discussed on this page. If we come up with a policy on this, then it will save time as we can refer people to it in future when the inevitable England/UK revert pingpong kicks off again! Mammal4 21:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC) (t)
Hi, I must admit that it is certainly debatable that Cornwall is part of England... Personally I think the debate stems from either people just being ignorant or probably for most of the people here it depends on your definition 'is part of.' I think the people who say it isn't mean it wasn't historicaly, it is culturally/ identity wise seperate, it is technically constitutionally seperate. Whereas the people who think its part of england mean 'it is treated as such now by most modern institutions.'
However the trend is towards increased recognition (by this I mean compared to 10 years ago rather than 'historically.' Its not something that is well known outside of cornwall and I think even though probably most cornish people would say it isn't i think most would be hard pressed to state actual documents (though they exist.)
Therefore I would agree with using the 'disputed' label, perhaps doubling up. I don't know about 'flags' at the bottom but putting a cornish one linking to somewhere is not the same as actually giving a side whereas putting an english one would be.
I think the 'disputed' idea is good. The only thing i would thought to be wary of is the constitutional status page which last thing i looked at was a bit thin, should be checked occasionaly for vandalism or whatever, also if it still is thin it should be bulked out with some more references. 131.111.8.99
Have to disagree. Although Cornwall is administered as a county, it has never been formally made a part of England, so cannot be considered as such. Using the word disputed is important to make this clear.
It should also be made clear from the beginning, that is an historic nation of Britain, although its political status is disputed. [[ Tashtastic]]
Cornwall has been a region of England since it was conquered by King Athelstan. The dukedom of Cornwall was first conferred on Edward the Black Prince by his father Edward III in 1343. "We will and firmly command for us and our heirs the said Duke may have and hold to him and the eldest sons of the said Dukes, of the same place hereditary to succeed in the Kingdom of England" (the appointment of) "the Sheriff of Cornwall"(and to have)"manors tc., and, "the stannaries of Cornwall". The text also stipulates "to remain to the same for ever...........in no wise separated........nor to any other or others."
I think the telling phrase there is "hereditary to succeed in the Kingdom of England"
Some Facts about The Duchy
There is an obvious contradiction between what is officially presented, and publicly perceived, as "the Duchy of Cornwall" and what the Officers of the Duchy of Cornwall submitted as conclusive evidence to support the Duke's right to the ownership of the foreshore, around Cornwall, between high and low water mark back in 1856-57. This was in a case of private arbitration between the Crown and the Duchy where the Duchy successfully showed title to 'the soil of Cornwall'.
Some of these 'official' views are given in the 650th Anniversary publication "The Duchy of Cornwall"(1987) where we see such incredible statements as :
"To confuse matters even more, the Duke owns more land outside Cornwall than he owns in the county. His Duchy is not the county and the county is not the Duchy....... the largest part of the Duchy that the visitor is ever likely to see is the beach upon which he disports himself. The Duchy owns less than three per cent of Cornish land, only twelve per cent of its total land holding."
Crispin Gill, Editor, Introduction p.14
and :
" Many people confuse the Duchy with county, but the two had, and have, different identities; only about seventeen per cent of the land surface of the county has ever belonged to the Duchy."
Graham Haslam, Archivist 1987 Chapter 1, p.24
who also says on page 21 :
" On a spring day in 1337 Edward III created the first English duchy. It was accomplished with all the solemnity and dignity which could be mustered; the King proclaimed the charter before the nobility and commonality assembled in open Parliament making his son and heir, Edward of Woodstock, Duke of Cornwall. The origins of the Duchy are not, as are so many other important English institutions, obscured by the mists of time. It did not grow, develop or evolve from modest arcane features. On 16th March 1337 it did not exist; on 17th March it did."
The Royal Duchy of Cornwall did evolve, in fact, by augmenting the existing Cornish Earldom and this was at a date prior to the 16th March 1337. The First Duchy Charter, inappropriately called 'the Charter of Creation', dated 17th March 1337, does, in fact, refer to the Duchy as having already been created - as does a Patent creating the new Earl of Salisbury dated 16th March 1337 - and even states when :
"..being in our present Parliament, convened at Westminster, on Monday next after the feast of St. Matthias the Apostle last past, ...."
The Officers of the Duchy, during the arbitration over the foreshore, estimated this to be:
"The particular time of this investiture, that is to say, that it preceded the 1st Duchy Charter, and was on some day between the 24th of February, the Feast of St. Mathias, and the 16th of March, is demonstrated by the patent of creation of the Earl of Salisbury, who, with others, was at that time created Earl in honour of the Prince, as stated by Lord Coke."
The original Act of creation is no longer in existence but has been referred to extensively in later Acts of Parliament. The following extract, from these references, is very significant,
"...that the County of Cornwall should always remain as a Duchy to the eldest sons of the Kings of England... without being given elsewhere".
The Officers of the Duchy reinforced this point with the following item -
"Now in a Charter granted to the first Duke by the King who created the Duchy, we find part of the preamble as follows :-
"Considerantes itaque qualiter Comitatus Cornubiæ jam Ducatus Cornubiæ nuncupatus magnam a jam diu suorum jurium sustinuit sectionem et desiderantes ipsum Ducatum redintegrare et ejus jura recolligere sic dispersa."
There are two conclusions to be drawn from these words, strongly confirmatory of what has been previously stated ; first, that the Comitatus Cornubiæ had a different meaning from the expression County of Cornwall, taken as a division of the kingdom for the purposes of civil government ; the latter portion of the sentence quoted, as well as the subject-matter of the Grant, is entirely inconsistent with such a construction, but entirely consistent with the view that the comitatus was a great Honor or Lordship, from which properties and rights (not in Cornwall) previously appertaining to it had been severed. And, secondly, which is the main point in this part of the case, that the Ducatus Cornubiæ entirely corresponded with what had been the Comitatus Cornubiæ in every respect except in name."
The First Charter was only intended as an enumeration as to what comprised the Duchy in terms of possessions and rights for the reason it states:
".. lest hereafter in any wise it should be turned into doubt, what or how much the same Duke, .... ought to have in the name of the Duchy aforesaid, we have caused all things in kind, which we will to pertain to the same Duchy, to be inserted in this our charter...."
The enumeration was deemed to be necessary because some earlier grants of certain rights and possessions away from the whole could be construed as a severance from the former Earldom and thus the simple phrase of :
"Earldom now a Duchy"
was not considered sufficient in itself to prevent the existence of any 'doubt'. Hence the purpose of the enumeration was to reaffirm and bring all things back together again under the honor of the Duchy.
It should be noted that the first item to be enumerated in the first Duchy Charter was, in fact, the "vicecomitatus" of Cornwall "with the appurtenances" and the right, according to custom, of appointing the Sheriff of Cornwall. This can only be construed as confirming the grant of both the territory and Government of Cornwall to the Duke. In both the Duchy and the former Earldom the Sheriff was the officer of the Earl or Duke and not the officer of the King as is the case elsewhere. The next enumerations identified the rights, revenues and possessions within Cornwall followed by those things which were located outside Cornwall and yet still part of this territorial honor.
All things enumerated were inextricably linked to the honor known as the Duchy of Cornwall with the words:
"...we do by this our present charter, for us and our heirs, annex and unite to the aforesaid Duchy, to remain to the same for ever, So that from the same Duchy they may at no time be in anywise separated..."
The reason for this limiting clause was in order to protect the Duchy from future predatory monarchs. How about predatory parliaments? There are those who have argued that because items 'were enumerated' that only those items specifically mentioned actually passed to the Dukes. This was more than adequately shown, by the Officers of the Duchy not to be the case! The Duchy Rights to the Foreshore being a clear example of the fallacy of such a superficial view and one which - together with the first item enumerated - is also immediately at odds with the bizarre views expressed in 'the anniversary' publication regarding how much land was ever a part of the Duchy! How can the British (alias English) Government, and others, say that the Duchy is only a landed estate and has nothing to do with what they, and their puppets, ignominiously refer to as 'the county'? Perhaps the Duchy, and the Crown, Establishments could be invited to make a public statement about this and other matters within this site?
The 2nd and 3rd Duchy Charters had the effect of transferring away from the Crown all Crown rights and fees in Cornwall which, for what ever reason, had not been parcel of the former Earldom, except those classified under Royal Jurisdiction (treason, ecclesiastical patronage etc.), and which clearly illustrates the full extent, and intent, of the Honor known as 'The Duchy of Cornwall'. The Officers of the Duchy, in 1856, had no hesitation in stating that the Duke was "quasi-sovereign within his Duchy". A Duchy which they so adequately revealed was the whole territory of Cornwall. Contrary to the official propaganda, and high level lies from those who still dominate us, the Duchy is 'Cornwall' as shown and not merely the private estates of the Duke.
The reasons for the creation of the Honor of Duchy of Cornwall were given, inter alia, as:
"the restoration of old ones",
viz. the Honor (of Cornwall)
"over which a while ago Dukes for a long time successively presided as chief rulers" .....
and
"desiring that places of note of the same kingdom should be adorned with their pristine honors".
Another reason given being that
"... lands subjected to our dominion, may be more securely and fitly defended against the attempts of enemies and adversaries......"
It must be noted that the king was not referring to the time when Cornwall had its most powerful Earls, Richard and Edmund, but referred to the time prior to the subjugation of Cornwall by Athelstan. The Officers of the Duchy were able to bring to the arguments many extant documents which clearly indicate that the focus of the grant was not merely a collection of estates but was a territorial grant as is obvious from the following extract from their evidence:
"About 60 years after the creation of the Duchy, we find in the Charter of 1st Henry IV. to Prince Henry, the eldest Son of that King, as follows : "We have made and created Henry our most dear first-begotten Son, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall and Earl of Chester, and have given and granted, and by our Charter have confirmed to him the said Principality, Duchy, and Earldom, that he may preside there, and by presiding, may direct and defend the said parts. We have invested him with the said Principality, Duchy, and Earldom, per sertum in capite et annulum in digito aureum ac virgam auream juxta morem."
A further point of constitutional interest and importance, already mentioned under 'Cornish Milestones' is the legal fact that Cornwall was considered as distinct from England and the Crown. It is sad indeed that a Cornish historical perspective is wilfully denied by Anglocentric retrospective superficiality. Likewise, to call the creation of the Duchy of Cornwall an "English institution" based, as it was, on contemporary continental lines, or alternatively to reflect Cornwall's status prior to subjugation, is arrogant and dismissive.
The Duke of Cornwall within his Duchy was a vassal of the English king. This corresponded with the period when Norman kings of England - as Dukes of Aquitaine - were vassals of the king of France. This did not imply that Aquitaine was anything other than Aquitaine. Are we to assume, also, that the Principality of Wales is an "English institution". It is an overwhelming fact of history that Cornwall, as a non-English 'British Province', whether as the Earldom of Cornwall or the Dukedom of Cornwall, never merged in the Crown in the absence of an Earl or Duke but was, and is, held 'ut de honor' [Comitatus or Ducatus] 'in manu regis existente'.
Another point worthy of mention and discussion - and there are many! - is the statement, in the aforesaid 'anniversary' publication, that:
" Richard's son, Edmund,succeeded to the Earldom in 1272, but he died eight years later and the estates according to law reverted to the Crown.."
Graham Haslam, Archivist 1987 Chapter 1, p.23.
This is incorrect on three important points!
1 - Edmund actually died in the 28th year of the reign of Edward the First (1272 - 1307) - "on the morrow of St Michael, in the 28th year ending". This makes Edmund's death circa AD 1300 and, in truth, twenty eight years as Earl of Cornwall.
2 - it was the 'Earldom of Cornwall' - NOT "the estates" - which passed to Edward the First.
3 - that whilst the territorial possession did pass to the King "according to law" this should not be construed as simply "reverted to the Crown" like some homeless escheat. It passed to the King as a true inheritance because the King was Edmund's next heir (his cousin) - a line of succession which prevailed up to the creation of the Duchy. The whole of the archivist's statement gives a clear indication of the subjectivity and questionable treatment given to the subject!
The following extracts from 'the Arbitration' show the preamble to, and the conclusions drawn from, an analysis of the Duchy Charters and other relevant material by the Officers of the Duchy of Cornwall as part of their Preliminary Statement.
"But the full and real effect of the Duchy Charters themselves will be more satisfactorily and conclusively shown by considering the construction put upon them in early times, not only in grants and legal proceedings in which they are recited or noticed, but also by the Courts of Judicature and the Legislature of the Country."
The analysis proceeds......
"In conclusion, it is submitted that the facts and authorities before referred to are sufficient to establish,- 1st. That Cornwall, like Wales, was at the time of the Conquest, and was subsequently treated in many respects, as distinct from England. 2nd. That it was held by the Earls of Cornwall with the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded the Seignory or territorial dominion. 3rd. That the Dukes of Cornwall have from the creation of the Duchy enjoyed the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded seignory or territorial dominion, and that to a greater extent than had been enjoyed by the Earls. And lastly. That the Duchy Charters have always been construed and treated, not merely by the Courts of Judicature, but also by the Legislature of the Country, as having vested in the Dukes of Cornwall the whole territorial interest and dominion of the Crown in and over the entire County of Cornwall. Duchy of Cornwall, Somerset House, May, 1855."
As these extracts are taken from the 'Preliminary Statement' of the Duchy - an arbitration that spanned some three years! - the following extract from the Duchy should serve to show that subsequent argument strengthened, rather than weakened, the claim on behalf of the Dukes of Cornwall.
"Since this subject was under the consideration of the Law Officers and Counsel of the Duchy in the spring of last year, further searches have been made amongst the ancient records of the Country, which have resulted in the production of some additional evidence, which seems materially to support the conclusions previously arrived at, and has enabled the Duchy Officers to present the Case of His Royal Highness the Duke of Cornwall in a more precise and definite form than was done in the Preliminary Statement prepared in the spring of 1855.
Duchy of Cornwall, Somerset House, 12th February, 1857."
In a spate of letters to the Editor of the West Briton newspaper, September 2000, to which reference was made to this particular case of Arbitration, there was a letter from a particular gentleman whose quality of life seems to be totally dependent upon trivialising the Cornish Debate. He is the pioneer of fallacious argument and ludicrous statement and offers nothing but the opportunity to maintain an ongoing dialogue. On this occasion he makes the comment:
"The actual judgement as to the precise grounds of the Duchy's success" namely, in the arbitration over foreshore rights - "is never quoted." and poses the mischievous question: "I wonder why?" My offer to be allowed to enlighten him by quoting from the actual award of Sir John Patteson's arbitration on 10th June 1857 was not printed but is included here for the benefit of others:
"...I have carefully considered all the Statutes, Charters, documents and cases which have been produced or referred to by the Counsel for the Crown and for the Duchy ; and also all the arguments which they have adduced... ...I am of the opinion and so decide that as between the Crown and the Duke of Cornwall the right to the Minerals between High and Low Water marks has passed to and is vested in the Duke of Cornwall as part of the Soil and territorial possessions of the Duchy... "
The lucrative nature of the ownership of the property had caused the Crown to make a predatory claim of prima facie right of ownership of the property. The main thrust of the Duchy argument was - and I quote :
"...It is contended, on the part of the Duchy, that this general prima facie right of the Crown has not application, as against the Duke of Cornwall, within his Duchy or County of Cornwall, and, consequently, not to the particular property forming the subject of the present question..."
The Duke of Cornwall in his Foreword to the 650th Anniversary publication "The Duchy of Cornwall (1987)" states that "The Duchy is above all else a landed estate and will continue to be so". In my opinion the Rights of the Cornish to be seen to be Cornish - not English! - are implicit in the creation of the institution which gives him his title and it is a sad day indeed, for democracy, when a future king shows such little respect for the Rights of his subjects. The constitutional chicanery which has hidden from view the true status of the Duchy of Cornwall has also wilfully removed the institution which enshrines our Cornish Rights, without affording any form of compensatory political accommodation.
This is a situation which cannot be allowed to continue and some measure of redress and accountability must be demanded.
Another independent glimpse of the Duchy as it 'do belong to be' is given to us by Richard Pearse within an essay on "The Ancient Duchy of Cornwall" contained within his book "The Land beside the Celtic Sea - Aspects of Cornwall's Past" (1983) [
ISBN
0 907566 48 0 or 0 907566 49 9]. The observation is concerning the establishment of the Prince's Council in 1343 and is as follows - my square brackets:
"In 1343 the council quickly became a centralised system of government on similar lines to the King's Council. It welded the widely spread lands into a closely-knit whole. It was staffed by civil servants of high rank who were often trained in and drafted from the King's Exchequer and Chancery, the highest departments of state. The functions of the prince's council were advisory and to a lesser extent legislative and executive. Its ordinances had the effect of law within its territories. The council was flexible, and adapted itself to rule in the name of the prince the three distinct, separate and virtually independent territories: the earldom of Chester, the duchy of Cornwall and the principality of Wales, and eventually the fourth - the principality of Aquitaine. Each was governed as a separate entity according to its ancient traditions and customs, each under the supervision and control of experienced civil servants. Prince Edward thus became the direct ruler of large parts of England [sic], Wales and France. His territories constituted individual states within the state. ...This measure of autonomy has never been as great as it was during the first duke's lifetime. It has disappeared, but a desire for a limited measure of autonomy has persisted ever since, backed by a strong tradition of an ancient Celtic cultural background. This cultural background has tended to isolate Cornwall from the rest of England[sic]. Yet there has been no isolation from the outside world."
Another aspect worthy of further consideration, given the dubious nature of the Crown's chicanery over Duchy Rights, is a claim made by the Duchy at the end of the 18th-century to appoint an Admiral for Cornwall. The Crown offered 'an opinion' on the claim but, for some reason, the matter was not pursued further by the Duchy nor developed within the above arbitration because "...the fact can have little or no bearing upon the present question.". The relevance here is that the Duchy felt that they had a claim of right over the seas around Cornwall but not, presumeably, worth the effort of proving it.
Considering that there was a principal focus during the 19th Century to diminish the integrity and impact of the Duchy of Cornwall, it does not require much of an imagination to appreciate that the last thing that the Crown, or Paliament, wanted was an in-depth legal debate into what comprised the honor known as the Duchy of Cornwall. It is my opinion that the case of arbitration, referred to above, was contrived by the Crown in order to ensure a compromise which whilst giving - because it was known to be incontestable! - the award between high and low water marks to the Duchy, awarded the most beneficial portion - that of mining beyond the low water mark - to the Crown. Had the whole matter been decided simply upon 'legal ownership' then it is most probable that both properties would have been found in favour of the Dukes of Cornwall in right of the Duchy. The value, however, to the Cornish people was in the form and depth of the Duchy argument.
Given that the 'official' view of the Duchy of Cornwall seems to be built upon rather dubious foundations and that this can be shown to have consequences which are sinister and repugnant to the rights of the Cornish people within their own territory, then there is an urgent need for an external agency to intercede on behalf of the Cornish people!
With the inexorable tendency towards a form of British Republican State, it is imperative, therefore, that the real truth about the marginalisation - to use a euphemism! - of the Cornish people is subjected to the deepest possible academic and judicial analysis before Cornish Rights are irrevocably swept aside by 'English' political and constitutional change. It is indeed ironic that the so-called 'Mother of Parliaments' should have learnt the art of democratic debate through the existence of the Duchy of Cornwall!!
When did Cornwall join the English/UK parliament?
What special provisions were made for Cornwall as distinct entity?
Was not the joining of the government confirmation that Cornwall was to be ruled as, and remained as, a part of England?
Bretagne 44 16:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
There is a LOT that could be included regarding the history of Cornwall from the sub-Roman period until it's Saxon subjugation and the medieval period. Should this information be contained on this page "cornwall" or on a seperate "kingdom of cerniw" page? Also, there still seems to be a lot of confusion as to the origin of the world "cornwall". There is a debate as to whether there was a Cornovii tribal group who were subordinate to the dumnonii or if the Kern prefix is a geographical name only referring to the peninsular's shape (like a "horn"). I notice that one of these theories has precedence at the moment without any discussion of the other theory, nor with any evidence to support it (there is one piece of evidence supporting the Cornovii theory which is a settlement name recorded in one Roman charter) James Frankcom 11:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
The etmology is of the Saxon word Cornwall is meaning South Weahlas - South Forigeners.-- Rhydd Meddwl 17:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Extracted from a commission of the first Duke of Cornwall, 25 Edw. III to "John Dabernoun, our Steward and Sheriff of Cornwall greeting. On account of certain escheats we command you that you inquire by all the means in your power how much land and rents, goods and chattels, whom and in whom, and of what value they which those persons of Cornwall and England have, whose names we send in a schedule enclosed......!
Bretagne 44 13:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This was just the common politness of the day. The Duke would address the people gathered there (as vested in the Sheriff of Cornwall), and then the greater mass (ie. England). It in no way indicates that Cornwall was a distinct place.
Also the fact that Cornwall was then, as you so rightly point out, under the control of an English Duke, only adds to its being a part of England.
1. Is there any need for the coat of arms of Cornwall County Council (1940's) to be displayed in the info box ? Wouldn't the St Piran's Flag suffice ? or perhaps with the plain Cornish 15 bezants shield ? http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=13148
2. Ethnicity -" 99.0% White, of which 6.8% Cornish" should be amended - everyone knows the true figure is nearer 45 - 50%. see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3527673.stm The Cornish are one of 79 UK Census 2001 ethnic group categories but the last Census did not include a tick box for the Cornish to register !!! (see code 06 - Census 2001 Ethnic Codes)
For the first time in a UK Census, those wishing to describe their ethnicity as Cornish were given their own code number (06) on the 2001 UK Census form, alongside those for people wishing to describe themselves as English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish. Although happy with this development there were reservations about the overwhelming lack of publicity surrounding the issue, the lack of a clear tick-box for the Cornish option on the census and the need to deny being British in order to write "Cornish" in the field provided..... Bwizz 17:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
"Using the council coat of arms is standard practice" -- then why is there no sign of it on the " Devon", Tyne, South Yorks, Notts and Hereford pages ???... Bwizz 20:13 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The duchy and county are seperate. We have argued about this before. Using duchy symbols is POV the council coat of arms is the only official symbol.
josh (
talk)
18:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
"99.0% White, of which 6.8% Cornish"
I doubt the Cornish constitute only 7% of the population! -- MacRusgail 16:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I notice this dispute is ongoing. Perhaps it might help achieve consensus if the article about the county council area were moved to Cornwall County Council (currently a redirect to Cornwall), which, after all, is what it's about. Then it could be made clear what arms/statistics/etc. pertain to the county council, and what doesn't, but still pertains to cornwall as a non-local-government-administrative entity, and cornwall's history, etc. on the main namespace. What do people think about this? I think it would greatly simplify creating articles acceptable to both parties. Stringops 17:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
1) Why do the duchy Charters that are still law today talk about the whole of Cornwall being augmented into a Duchy?
2) Why was the county of Cornwall successfully described as a Duchy in the Cornish Foreshore Case of 1856?
On behalf of the Duchy in its successful action against the Crown, which resulted in the Cornwall Submarine Mines Act of 1858, Sir George Harrison (Attorney General for Cornwall) makes this submission.
a That Cornwall, like Wales, was at the time of the Conquest, and was subsequently treated in many respects as distinct from England.
b That it was held by the Earls of Cornwall with the rights and prerogative of a County Palatine, as far as regarded the Seignory or territorial dominion.
c That the Dukes of Cornwall have from the creation of the Duchy enjoyed the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded seignory or territorial dominion, and that to a great extent by Earls.
d That when the Earldom was augmented into a Duchy, the circumstances attending to it's creation, as well as the language of the Duchy Charter, not only support and confirm natural presumption, that the new and higher title was to be accompanied with at least as great dignity, power, and prerogative as the Earls enjoyed, but also afforded evidence that the Duchy was to be invested with still more extensive rights and privileges.
e The Duchy Charters have always been construed and treated, not merely by the Courts of Judicature, but also by the Legislature of the Country, as having vested in the Dukes of Cornwall the whole territorial interest and dominion of the Crown in and over the entire County of Cornwall.
3) Why did the Duchy of Cornwall Management Act confirm that the Duke possesses seignory and territorial rights befitting a king in 1863 if the Duchy is just a landed estate?
4) Why did the Kilbrandon Report into the British constitution in 1969-71 recommend that Cornwall (the territory of) should be referred to as a Duchy in light of its constitutional position?
5) Why does the Duke of Cornwall have rights of governance and honours over the whole territory of Cornwall but not Duchy lands outside Cornwall? For instance the right of wreck on all Cornish shores, the right of Bona Vicantia / treasure trove for the county of Cornwall, the right to Swans and Sturgeon caught in Cornwall, the duty to appoint the Sheriff of Cornwall and preside over the Stannary Parliaments.
6) Why does the Duchy have its own exchequer and other arms of governance and indeed why is the duchy described in law as a body of governance if it is just a landed estate?
7) Why did this definition of county in the Complete Oxford English Dictionary (2nd Ed 1989 p. 1044.) describe Cornwall as a Duchy?
Whence county was gradually adopted in English (scarcely before the 15th century) as an alternative name for the shire, and in due course applied to similar divisions made in Wales and in Ireland, as well as the shires of Scotland, and also extended to those separate parts of the realm which never were shires, as The Duchy of Cornwall, Orkney and Shetland. Part definition of the term County.
8) Why did the 1998 Tamar Bridge act confirm the power of the Duke and border of Cornwall (the Duchy) if the Duchy of Cornwall is just a landed estate?
Aztecy 19:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
1) At what point do the charters describe the county as being a duchy. In fact their are several points where it refers to the county and duchy seperately and at one point states that 'lands in and outside the county of cornwall are annexed to the duchy'. Why would they haveto be annexed if the whole county is the possesion of the prince.
2) Ah the foreshore case. All the points that you give were arguments by the attorney for the duchy and have no significance in English law. The arbritration was a comprimise in the end with the duchy getting mining right 'between the high and low water mark'.
3) 5) and 6) I've grouped these together because they are all part of the same misconception. Yes the duchy has rights beyond normal land ownership. This is not unique. The City of Bristol and City of London museums both have right of salvage in their own cities.
This is a classic logical fallacy. Just because the prince has rights otherwise reserved for the monach doesn't make him the same as. He doesn't appoint the Lord-Lieutenant, can't raise taxes, can't raise an army etc etc.
4) As I've already pointed out its just a report. The government has loads of these and ignore most of them. You see a news report every week about a report recommending that we pay 50% tax or work until we're 90. No of them come to anything unless the government wants it to. In short, they mean nothing.
7) A dictionary defines words. Why the hell would it have a place in it? They don't dictate political divisions in the UK so like the report it has no relivence.
8) I presume this is what your refering to. Note it also includes crown estates and government owned land. So it does refer to the Landed estate. The act also refers to a seperate definition of the 'county of cornwall'.
All these arguments are irrelvent anyway. The county council are the controlling power of the county as established in the 1889 and 1974 acts. These clearly supercede any rights that the prince may have had. josh ( talk) 21:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
In the 38th year of the reign of Henry VI. we find a bill introduced into Parliament which, after reciting at length the three Duchy Charters, proceeds as follows :
“By force of which Grants, Ordinances, Annexions, and Confirmations, the said Edward, then Duke of Cornwall, as Duke of Cornwall, was seized of all the said Duchie and Countie, Castell, Maners, Honoures, Parkes, Boroughs, Baillywyks, Bcddarics, Fyshings, Touncs, Mills, Prises, and Customes of Wynes, Proffitts of Portes and Havenes, Wreyks, Proffitts of Shires, Hundreds and Courtes, Stannarie with Cunage of the same, Percquisitcs of the Myncre and Stannar, with Water, with Franchises, Liberties, and all maner Proffitts and Possessions comprised in the said Letters Patent and Tenures of the same.
And the said Edward sometyme Duke of Cornwall and the said victorious Prince your fader, in the lyfe of your said Noble Aiell as Duke of Cornwall, used to have and had (amongst other) as parcel of the said Duchie, Fynes for alienation of all Lands, Tenementes, and Possessions holden of them in chief within the said Countie, and the first seizine of all Lands and Tenements of every tenant that held of them in chief within the said Countie, after their decesse and the issuez thereof taken to their owen use unto the time that they that right had to the same Landes and Tenementes sued and had lyvere thereof out of the said Duke's hands, as they should have doone oute of the King´s hands iff thay had holden them of the King in chief, an in like forme as your true liegemen doone and own to do within Counte Palatyne, notwithstandyng that thoo tenantez held in other places of the King in chief.”
After further mention, the Parliament Roll then proceeds :
“Which Petition and Schedules were brought and deliberated upon by the Commons of the Kingdom of England in the same Parliament, to which the same Commons gave their assent in this form – ‘To this Bill, and to the Schedules to this Bill annexed, the Commons have assented.´ ”
“Which Petition, Schedules, and Assent having been read, heard, and fully understood. in the aforesaid Parliament, by the advice and consent of the Lords spiritual and temporal in the same Parliament, assembled by the authority of the same Parliament, an answer was given thereto in form following – Let it be done as prayed, saving to the King certain things, in manner and form following - Soit fait come il est desire, saufes au Roy certyns choses, en manere & forme ensuantz – Alway forseyn that all avoidances of Bishopriks, Dignities, and grete officers pertaynyng to the said Principalte and Duchie, be and stande at our will, nominatione, gift, and grante, this act notwithstanding.”
It will be observed, that there are two very remarkable features about this Act, which it is conceived must place beyond all doubt the title of the Duke to the County of Cornwall, and to all those prerogative and seignorial rights which would naturally accompany the grant. In the first place, there is in effect an express declaration by the whole Parliament that, by virtue of the three recited charters, the Duke did become entitled to the whole County of Cornwall ; and, secondly, the fact of its having been considered necessary to except the appointment of Bishops from the operation of the Act, shows clearly the extensive and almost unlimited prerogative rights which at that time were considered to be attached to the Duchy.
So from this we can clearly see that Cornwall was a county and a Duchy; a county palatine. Bretagne 44 10:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Talskiddy 09:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes but that's the point; Cornwall (all of) can still be legally defined as a Duchy, see the Cornish foreshore case of the 19th century. Also a distinction needs to be drawn between lands the Duchy owns (inside and outside Cornwall) and the Duchy itself. The Crown of the UK could own lands inside and outside the UK but this would not stop the King/Queen being the head of state for all of the UK and the whole UK being the Kingdom. Bretagne 44 10:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC) 12:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The foreshore case, as has been shown above, can be dismissed as argument. In any case, arguing that the duchy is a special case is rather specious in todays terms, no one outside of a minority of Cornish Nationalists, believe that this case holds any water whatsoever. The fact is, that since time immemorial, Cornwall has opperated, been controlled, and has been believed to be a county in England by those within and without it. Until a majority of those who dwell in Cornwall desire it to be changed, the point is moot.
updated link * The Cornish Assembly - Senedh Kernow
Look at 1333 - Cornwall gains independence from England. What event is it referring to?
Dydh da, I have proposed the creation of a Portal for Cornwall. Please support this if you would. Link: [2] -- Joowwww 22:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I support the creation of a Cornish portal. Bretagne 44 15:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Aroberts, what do you think you are doing? Please address my following concerns:
If you fail to co-operate, I'll be requesting assistance from your good friend User:VampWillow ;-) Telex 12:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Please read archives 1 & 2 - this has already been discussed at great depth.
Blaid 21:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The proposal to create a Portal:Cornwall has been accepted. To create the portal, please see Wikipedia:Portal/Instructions.-- cj | talk 07:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
As Cornwall is recognised as one of six Celtic nations and the Cornish were recognised as being ethnically distinct on the last 2001 ONS UK Census ( Cornish ethnic coding = 06) see Census 2001 Ethnic Codes I think it should at least have it's national flag in the Wikipedia info box - the same as Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man, England and Northern Ireland !! Pretending that Cornwall is exactly the same as every other county in England as some would like us to believe is non NPOV.
Here are some facts to consider.
1. Cornwall is legally a Duchy and not an administrative county which it has illegally been for nearly 400 years . Cornwall is a Duchy no matter what the current government says.
2. Although our own Parliament was suspended in the 18th Century, we still have Independent Sovereign Rights that are fixed in law, namely the Stannary Parliaments.
3. Henry VIII listed England and Cornwall separately, in the list of his realms given in his Coronation address.
4. Cornwall's right to its own sovereign Parliament, and the powers it possesses under the Charter of Pardon were confirmed as valid in British law by the Lord Chancellor in 1977.
5. No record exists of any formal annexation of Cornwall to England.
6. Cornwall is a member of the Federal Union of European Nationalities which has special participatory status at the council of Europe in Strasbourg and consultative status to the United Nations.
7. There is no mention in the " Anglo-Saxon Chronicles " that Cornwall was ever conquered by the English .
8. The Cornish language gained official UK Government recognition in 2002 and funding in 2005.
9. Cornwall, like Wales, was not party to the Act of Union in 1707.
10. Before the 1960's, there was little difference between Cornwall and Wales in constitutional terms.
11. Many treaty's and documents up until the 18th century made reference to there being a distinction between England and Cornubia ( Cornwall ) .
12. The 1969-71 Killbrandon Report into the British constitution states that, " when referring to Cornwall, official sources should cite the Duchy". This was in recognition of it's constitutional position.
13. You now have the right on some official forms to be able to record your Nationality as Cornish. Eg :NHS Registration Forms; if the Police ask you your Nationality, it is acceptable to them to record it as Cornish. On the next UK census you will be able to write Cornish for your identity.
14. Maps of the British Isles produced up until the 17th century showed Cornwall as a distinct entity and on a par with the nation of Wales.
15. Cornwall is an older nation than England and one of the oldest Duchies in Europe.
16. 90% of Cornish place names are of Celtic origin and derived from the Cornish language.
17. The Duchy includes the entire territory known as Cornwall, including the bed and waters of the River Tamar.
18. The Cornish are a Celtic people who once inhabited the entire region covered by present-day Cornwall, Devon and West-Somerset.
19. The Duke of Cornwall is our head of state; Not the UK monarch.
20. The Duke's powers are further confirmed in the Tamar Bridge Act as recently as 1998.
21. Cornwall has two unique Celtic sports, Cornish Hurling and Cornish Wrestling, both chronically ignored and under funded.
22. Many of our festivals and events, like the Obby Oss have their origins in the Celtic Britons and predate the arrival of the English in the British Isles.
Is this anti English? No we have plenty of English friends, but is the English establishment anti Cornish? Perhaps. Why did our schools never teach us about our own history and why does the government seem determined to ignore our calls for a Cornish assembly?
Blaid 21:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
After having looked here and elsewhere on Wikipedia it would seem to me that there is a faction within the Uk geography project to rob the United Kingdom of its legitimacy as a political entity (See discussion at Uk). This seems to take the form of reverting mentions of the Uk to use of the home nation on lots of English/Welsh pages with no good reason, and in the case of Cornwall by POV pushing the England label and Flag on Cornish pages. Yes Blaid makes some good points - I don't agree with all of them, and many can be argued to be misinterpretation of minimal historical documents that are available from the period (BTW, the Queen is actually the head of state for Cornwall as she is the Queen of England, Wales, Scotland and Cornwall, the Duchy being a title given to her eldest like the Prince of Wales, to provide income). Regardless of the legality of it, or the previous history, Cornwall is administered as a county of England. Personally, the time to kick up a stink about this would be in 1888 when the local governement act meant that what was previously treated as a separate component of the Uk, was given county status (illegally or not, there is now 120 years of precedent, which counts for a lot in Uk law). These are the facts and should be reflected in the entry (the place for discussion of the constitutional status of Cornwall being Constitutional status of Cornwall). However, to pretend that Cornwall isn't different, doesn't have a separate identity within the Uk, language, flag, culture etc is wrong and POV pushing in the extreme. This obsession with consistency between county articles is ridiculous - Yes it is good that they all have a simmilar layout and style, with simmilar sectioning, but the Uk is not, like some other countries, a homogenous entity, and these regional differences should be respected and commented upon in the articles, not steamrollered out because they don't conform to the article template. A lot of English counties have a motto, but I don't see people questioning the legigimacy these as they do on the Cornwall page - this sort of petty undermining of Cornish identity should have no place on Wikipedia! I've said my piece Grrrr sometimes these people get me so cross! :) Mammal4 08:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist replying to Blaid:
So, Blaid, back to my point. You have a lot of good arguments supporting the claim that Cornwall ought to have self government (on the basis that it's distinct), however, you don't have much to support the allegation that it is legally entitled to it. You need a court ruling to challenge the government's claims. They administer the place, anything else is a POV without a court ruling (or the government acknowledging something or a new Act of Parliament granting autonomy) -- Telex 19:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Telex, Cornwall is one of 6 Celtic nations - Bretagne, Cornwall, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales who all display their flag at the top of the Wikipedia page. Are you saying that Cornwall is not recognised as a Celtic nation ? Your obsession with removing the Cornish flag from the top of the Cornwall article and the way the "county" infobox is presented is ridiculous. This petty undermining of Cornish identity should have no place on Wikipedia ! Blaid 27 May 2006
As Mammal4 mentions there appears to be a clear case of POV pushing of the England label and flag on most Cornish pages. The fact is Cornwall is administered as a county of England. There is also as mentioned an obsession by a few on here for consistency between county articles and in particular "county" info boxes. Some genuine Cornish contributions are termed as "vandalism" and are reverted immediately whilst other types of POV pushing remain untouched. Should not the Wikipedia "Cornwall page administrator" have a more neutral point of view ?
"Regional differences should be respected and commented upon in the articles, not steamrollered out because they don't conform to the article template. A lot of English counties have a motto, but I don't see people questioning the legitimacy of these as they do on the Cornwall page - this sort of petty undermining of Cornish identity should have no place on Wikipedia !"
1. With regards to the flag issue, please take a look at the pages for the US states - each one has the state flag at the top of the infobox. The Council of Europe in Strasbourg is considering the Cornish case this year under the " Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities" and states that Cornish identity should be recognised and respected, not undermined or disregarded. The information I gave to Telex earlier provides evidence that Cornwall's identity is slightly different to other English "counties" -
2. With regards to the Cornish external link deletions below by Joshurtree - these appear to have been selected at random but the reason given is that "WP is not a Wikipedia:External_links Web directory". Of course he is correct with this explanation, but a casual look at other Wikipedia pages shows long lists of external links - for example take a look at the pages for Bath, Nottingham, Leeds, Bradford, Devon or even New York ! Perhaps he should delete some of these ?
Being that Cornwall is a Duchy, surely the flag that its people chose to use on its national day should be placed at the top of the page. The following pages are allowed a flag at the top and none of them are classed as Countries.
Erm - Ok - Luxembourg, Monaco and Andorra are independent countries like any other and obviously have flags. Jersey and Guernsey are independent. Wales and NI (which doesn't even have a flag) are nations of the UK officially recognised as such. How does that relate to Cornwall?
Having said all that, Cornish people, whether they live in a county or a duchy fly the St Piran's Cross all the time and are very proud of it as an identifier of their people and their homeland - it seems only appropriate that it appears at the top of the page - just as anyother area or people that has a popularly-used flag. Cornwall's status is really not relevant. Esquimo 10:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Will the flags be deleted from any of the above? (I think not) Talskiddy 23:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Telex this is simple not true. the
constitutional status of Cornwall as a duchy was proved in law in the 19th century, see the Cornish foreshore case.
Bretagne 44 16:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC
I'm really quite disappointed with the discussion on this page - its unbalanced and doesn't actually go anywhere. When I first heard about Wikipedia, I thought that it sounded like a great idea - the idea of articles being written through consensus and discussion by a sucession of writers, each with their own slant, but leading to an "averaged" article that cover all sides is a great concept, and I'm surely not the only person who contributes here that thinks so. That there is no hierachy and that no editor is deemed "better" than anyone else also appealed to me. The policies laid down by Wikipedia are also a useful set of guidlines with which to ensure civil and constructive contributions. Additionally, The discussion page where ideas can be hammered out before adding them to the main article is a really useful concept.
The reality of my experience with editing, especially on Cornwall geography pages has been somewhat different. I don't direct this to any one individual editor, it is more a general feeling about what I think is lacking on Cornwall related discussion, not just on this page. I apologise if I inadvertently offend anybody, that is not my intention here, I just want to get some of this stuff out in the open, hopefully improve how the discussion process works here and gently remind people of the Rules and Etiquette that we are supposed to contribute under.
Bah whats the use - I've had enough of this - I'm sure nobody will take any notice of this post anyway and just carry on as before, but at least I feel better for having ranted it off of my chest! Mammal4 13:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC) á
As i have said before this and other articles are targetted by English/British nationalists plus others. Bretagne 44 16:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As to the debate on the Cornwall page county V country. Why not go for segregation, leave the wikipedia Cornwall county of England page and create the Celtic nation of Cornwall page. You could take the constitutional status of Cornwall [ [6]] page as a starter and turn it into the Celtic nation of Cornwall page. There is already a Celtic Nations page so you would be just building on that.
The Cornwall EC and Cornwall CN page would then link to each other and other Cornish pages. This would achieve consensus provide an accurate description of Cornwall from the tow perspectives and solve this tiresome feud. Bretagne 44 16:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Please feel free to update the Cornwall portal, or to change it in any way - new information etc. I'm finding myself without much time to do it. -- Joowwww 16:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
There was a request for references to support the international recognition of the Cornish flag in the main article. I'm pretty sure that the flag is recognised outside Cornwall/UK but its not easy to find references to support this. I googled "Flags of the World" and looked at the first couple of hits (I didn't have time to go deeper). Both were American hosted sites I think. Both had the Cornish flag on their site, so I added them as refs to the article. Some of the lower hits didn't have the flag, but then only had flags of sovereign nations anyway (CIA factbook etc). Does that answer the query? I'm happy to discuss this. Mammal4 17:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Steinsky - please can you provide more descriptive edit summaries when you are reverting edits that you disagree with. As I'm sure you know this is generally considered to be good Wikipedia practice. I'm sure many regulars on this page will know why you've reverted it but newer editors will not. I realise it must be irritating to have to keep repeating yourself. It generally helps to reduce antagonism if you at least explain what you are doing.
Tashtastic - Whilst I sympathise with what you are saying, it doesn't matter whether Cornwall was formally annexed or not, it is administered now as a county of England (legally or ilegally it makes no difference). Cornwall County Council is not a front for the Cornish government. This debate has being going back and forth for at least 3 years - it might help if you were to look in the achives at the top of this page to see what has been discussed previously before making any changes. It has been suggested that an Historic Kingdom of Cornwall page be set up to distinguish some of these issues from the Cornwall main page, which is a description of the current English administered (legally or ilegally) region. This would build on the infomration at Duchy of Cornwall and constitutional status of Cornwall. Something simmilar has been done with Brittany to distinguish it from the French administered region of Bretagne. This is a more effective way of getting your point across that reverting this page over and over again.
I hope this is useful, take care Mammal4 13:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
"Cornwall +(capital+city)" pulls up many more relevant hits on google (>100,000) than either "Cornwall +(administrative+headquarters)" or "Cornwall +(administrative+HQ)" (<1000). This isn't unique to Cornwall, as I've tried it with other counties. Does anybody know why the geography pages have been set up in this way? Mammal4 14:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Should there be a Cornwall related stub ? ok, we have a {{ Cornwall-geo-stub}} for locations within Cornwall but what about Cornwall non-geo stubs, such as " List of Celts", for articles which relate to Cornwall or Cornish people ? Please leave a comment here..
Proposal for a Cornwall-related article Stub
Pediac 17:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC) {{ Scotland-stub}} {{ Ireland-stub}} {{ Wales-stub}} {{ France-stub}}
Shouldn't the map be revised so that Cornwall is not dark green? Anyone else agree ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:England#The_Duchy_of_Cornwall_is_not_really_in_England http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:England/Cornwall
Blaid 21:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason why we have two pages that talk about the duchy of Cornwall here and here? Although the name suggests that they cover different faces of the Duchy of Cornwall (as a property holding of Prince Charles, and as a once semi autonomous block of the UK) in reality they cover mostly the same information - wouldn't it be better for readers unfamiliar with this information to merge the two articles? At the moment it just looks like a potential POV fork waiting to happen Mammal4 15:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I see this is NOT in fact being currently discussed at Talk:Cornish emigration., it has hardly been discussed at all and it appears that a consensus of three people have decided to change the name to Cornish emigration, start deleting links and redirecting pages. The committee of three has decided that the Cornish diaspora of some 6-10 million people does not exist. May I refer you to Professor Philip Payton's books "Cornwall" and "The Cornish Overseas". The Cornish diaspora refers to Cornish emigrants and their descendants in countries such as the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Mexico. The diaspora was caused by a number of factors, but due mainly to economic reasons and the lack of jobs in the 18th and 19th centuries when many Cornish people or “Cousin Jacks” as they were known migrated to various parts of the world in search of a better life. Should this be deleted also ?
This is being currently being discussed at Talk:Cornish emigration unless I imagined all those posts. Please keep the discussion on that page and not here. Nothing has been deleted, just the name of the page changed. This was proposed back at the end of June, and nobody bothered to comment until the after the page was renamed. As I have already said, I am happy to reopen the discussion and change it back if that is what the consensus is. This is a discussion over the terminology used, nobody is denying that this movement of people happened. Mammal4 18:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the movement of text In the 20th century there has been an attempt to revive the Cornish language and as one of the six Celtic nations there has been some debate over the constitutional status of Cornwall (Some Cornish people refer to Cornwall as a Duchy and consider it separate from England). back to the first paragraph. This was put in as a compromise a year or so back so that people can link to the constitutional status of Cornwall page if they want to read more on the topic, but don't have to wade through a load of stuff about Cornish independence if they don't want to. If you look in the archives at the top of the page there was quite a lot of discussion about it at the time and it was deemed necessary to prevent further loading of the opening paragraph with Cornish nationalist sentiment, whilst maintaining a balance Mammal4 08:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't disagree with having the sentence there. However more people reading this article are going to want to know about its towns, county seat, population etc. than some rather doubtful stuff about its constitutional status. Let's put the things people are most likely to want to know at the top, and the rest after it. DJ Clayworth 13:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that you can say what other people will and will not want to read about - have you done a poll? As to the doubtful constitutional status comment, the actual sentance reads "there has been some debate over the constitutional status of Cornwall" Are you doubting that there has been debate or do you have doubts about the constitutional status? The sentance is worded very neutrally is doesn't make any claim as to the constitutional status itself, only that it is a topic which crops in Cornish politics that you wouldn't have in, say, Derbyshire or Hampshire. This is true. As tothe constitutional status itself, well that is a complicated topic, and you are quite right, that sort of thing shouldn't be in the header. The point is that this leader paragraph is supposed to summarise the whole article and give a flavour of what is to come - The meat of it is supposed to come in the later sections. All of the things that say people want to read about (towns, county seat, population etc) are actually either at the start of the opening paragraph or in the infobox or in both; i don't think anyone is going to have trouble finding them. Take care Mammal4 13:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd agree with Mammal4 about this - the constitutional debate in Cornwall does exist, and is likely to be of interest to anyone who wants to find out about Cornwall, having a mention of it near the beginning of the article, with a link to the relevant article seems a sensible option. Surely one of the points of an encyclopedia is that it contains 'things you didn't know before reading it'? DuncanHill 14:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
As already stated, a large number of Cornish people do not identify as English or see themselves as from Cornwall, 'England' for reasons relating to the ongoing debate about the past, present and future constitutional status of Cornwall, together with many people's sense of a distinct Cornish cultural identity - see Constitutional status of Cornwall and Revert warring over England/English vs United Kingdom/British. Since 2001 the Cornish have had their own unique ethnic UK Census code '06' similar to the Irish, Scots, Welsh and English, 2001 Ethnic Codes,and on many official forms it is now possible to register as Cornish as opposed to English. 217.134.75.62 09:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph which was added today. IMHO, it is mostly unsubstantiated nonsense.
-- Portnadler 14:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a pretty accurate description of the geology of the region and the "sunken/flooded land" legend is common to the European celtic cultures - academics do make the link between the facts and the stories, as they do elsewhere in the world - I would argue for including the text in the article - it is based on fact, represents the opinions of at least a large part of academia and is interesting and adds to the reader's appreciation of the Cornish culture and landscape. Esquimo 10:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Twice edits about the revival of the Cornish language have been reverted. The last was anon by
172.206.31.187
talk.
Which of the below would seem more correct?
If there was an attempt: is it fair to say it failed?, succeeded? or that the revival is an ongoing project?
I also have a problem with the use of "In the 20th century, there has been an attempt"
I am sure that the revival started earlier?
any thoughts on this? Talskiddy 15:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted an anonymous edit which changed the intro to "The Cornish language gradually died out as a spoken language during the 19th century, however a slowly increasing minority of the population continue to speak a form of cornish similar to that which was spoken before." Apart from the fact that it's ungrammatical, is there any evidence for the claim that the number of Cornish speakers continues to increase slowly? -- Portnadler 12:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I happy with the reference, and it gladdens my Cornish heart to see how many people can effectively speak the language. However, I was still a bit unhappy with the form of words you put in the intro, so I've had another bash at rewriting it. -- Portnadler 17:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I have rewritten the Physical Geography section. I felt that it had become a bit of a mess with all the recent edits. Some were unencyclopedic hyperbole and there was one anonymous editor who kept referring to features in Cornwall that were (allegedly) analogous to those in Wales, Brittany and Ireland. I suspect this was the work of someone with a nationalist political agenda, disguised as a geographer/geologist.
I have also made the section briefer, in the hope that we will eventually develop a whole new article on the Geology of Cornwall. I have therefore included a main article template to encourage us to do this.
Portnadler 17:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
We are asked to populate the List of Villages. Most of the placenames in the List of places are redlinks. Can the two lists be drawn tgether, please? Would it be an inducement to add stubs or full articles on all the places to have them listed by District Council area? Vernon White 23:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with the location map on the Truro page, part of the map is hidden, can anyone fix it? Many thanks...-- 81.156.77.41 22:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone add to the list at " List of twin towns in the United Kingdom", arranged by County.
List is currently:
--Vernon White 21:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I have proposed the creation of a Cornwall stub at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2006/October for Cornwall related stub-class articles which do not fit the Cornwall geo-stub. DuncanHill 10:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else object to the new Cornwall town/village info boxes with the English flag which have appeared recently ? (see Redruth, Camborne etc. Personally I think I prefer the Penwith style - see Hayle / Penzance. After all Redruth and Camborne and other towns are also Cornish parishes, or I suppose we could add a Cornish flag ! Gulval 22:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Whilst its interesting to read different opinions over what constitutes nationality, and how different people in Cornwall view themselves, might I suggest that you two continue this discussion on your relative talk pages (and leave a link here to it if you feel the need)as this discussion a) seems to have degenerated in a series of circular arguments restatement of respective original positions and oblique sniping comments and b) is clogging up this discussion page which is already difficult to navigate. With that in mind I will probably archive most of this stuff this week to make room for fresh comment. Take care
Mammal4
13:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone damaged the heading "History" and added to:
"The site of ancient Belerion, Cornwall, was the principal source of tin for the civilisations of the ancient Mediterranean and evidence has been found of trade with cultures as far off as Phoenicia, located in present day Lebanon. At one time the Cornish were one of the world's foremost experts at mining, "
with:
"the history of Polgooth as a main trade centre for Tin is in evidence with tin ingnots stamped with the phoenician mark found in the "White river" at Pentewan proving increasing evidence for cornwalls importance in mining history."
I have restored the heading "History and added the "Fact" template before the statement about "tin ignots". I would like to know what the source of the Phoenician ingot story is, (if there is one). There is a WP stub article on Polgooth to which I have added a reliable looking external link about its mining history.
---Vernon White 21:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
---Vernon White 23:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
---
William Camden does not appear to believe the "Phoenicians in Cornwall" legend, if this is a correct translation:
Neither let any man surmize that in the daies of Constantius the Poeni [Phoenicians] had their abode here grounding upon these words of Eumenius the Rhetorician, Except perhaps no greater ruine had fallen upon Britaine, and borne it downe, than if it had been drenched thorout, and overwhelmed with the over-flowing of the Ocean: which being delivered from the most deepe gulfe [Poenorum], began to appeare and shew it selfe at the view and sight of the Romanes. For in the old Copie belonging sometime to Humfrey Duke of Glocester, and afterwards to the right honourable Baron Burghly, Lord high Treasurere of England, we read poenarum gurgitibus, that is, The gulfes of punishments, and not Poenorum gurgitibus. For he seemeth to speake of the calamites and miseries wherewith Britaine was afflicted under Carausius." Source: William Camden,Britannia (1607) with an English translation by Philemon Holland
=== Vernon White (talk) 20:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following paragraph because it struck me as largely inaccurate:
Although Cornwall is not thought of as a "Viking Country", during the latter stages of the Anglo-Celtic wars, when Wessex was threatening "West Wales" (then Cornwall and Devon), the Britons allied with Danish Vikings in order to hold Wessex from expanding westward. In 722 King Ine of Wessex Saxon army was comprehensibly destroyed by an alliance of Cornish Celts and Vikings somewhere around the Camel estuary. This battle, as well as the Vikings continually attacking, pillaging and burning Wessex, enabled Cornwall to stay reasonably separate from Wessex. To this day, there is a strong feeling of pride and comradeship from the Cornish towards the Vikings citation needed, who have always been seen in Cornwall as allies - just as in the other Celtic nations such as Wales, Scotland and Ireland. It is highly likely the likes of Bude, Falmouth and Mount's Bay had small Viking settlements (Bude is just outside Lundy Island, which has a Norse name and settlement).
These are my reasons:
Since the first Viking raids on Britain took place from around 787, it is inconceivable that Vikings were in alliance with the Cornish against King Ine in 722 (I don't know where this information comes from, but even if the Cornish were assisted by Norse traders, there's no reason to call them Vikings).
The victory against Ine may have been crucial in keeping Cornwall proper out of Wessex, but that war overall was a defeat because West Wales lost over half its territory to Wessex.
I'm Cornish, and this is the first I've heard of a strong feeling of pride and comradeship towards the Vikings, though I can't speak for the people of Falmouth et al.
The following is one of the worst pieces of geographical description I've ever come across: Bude is just outside Lundy Island.
(It's possible that the alliance with the Vikings referred to is the attempt to throw the Saxons out of Cornwall in 838, which is a different matter. Since it was unsuccessful and the Vikings fled after being defeated, the incident doesn't merit pride and comradeship, anyway, I'd say.)
qp10qp 13:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
1. " Viking" was a term invented in the 18th C, according to the WP article. Its definition is not clear. The correct WP link is Ine of Wessex not Ine.
2. According to Philip Payton [1], the Allies of the West Welsh in AD 722 were "Danish".
3. According to Philip Payton, the Camel Estuary can only "probably" be identified with the Battlesite - Hehil[2]
4. At the Battle of Hingston Down in AD 838, the allies were "Vikings", according to Payton [3].
5. The subsequent "ethnic cleansing" of what is now Devonshire and the establishment of terms for a workable peace by Athelstan of England, with a boundary at the River Tamar, should be included in this article [4].
6. In my experience, Falmouth folk are very friendly and welcoming to strangers. The WP Falmouth page makes no such claim as "the Viking Paragraph" of long-standing Viking links, although the WP Viking page does. It would be good to know where this idea came from, as Falmouth (formerly Peny-cwm-cuic) was very tiny until Henry VIII's Pendennis Castle was built.
7. The place-name element "-y", may be Old Norse for an Island. However the WP article on Lundy does not mention Viking settlement.
___ Hope this helps +++ Vernon White (talk) 22:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
OK; how about:
In
705 the Saxons under
Ine of Wessex advanced on
Dumnonia, ruled at the time by
Geraint, and by
710 had overrun its eastern territories, including Taunton and Exeter.
[1] They were eventually defeated in
722 by a Cornish army at a place recorded as Hehil.
[2] A century passed before the West Saxons again turned their attention to Cornwall, this time under
King Egbert, who in
814 laid waste to the land and exacted homage from the local leaders.
[3] From this time, the Cornish lost their independence, though unsuccessful revolts followed in
825 and, finally, in
838, when the Cornish and their Viking allies were defeated by Egbert at
Hingston Down, near Gunnislake.
[4]
Vernon, the Hehil footnote needs to be filled with a short quote from Payton, instead of my gloss of what you said above. Please alter or change my words as suitable and add or subtract references, if necessary. It would be nice to have something precise about the battle of Galford/Gafulford (Camelford?) in 825; Halliday doesn't say much about that, but perhaps Payton or your other chap does.
May I ask about the revised reference to 721 and Danes and king Ine? What is the primary source for Danes and Ine? The Annales Cambriae (AC) says simply that in 721 the Britons were victors in battle at Hehil among the Cornish (“apud Cornuenses”). It mentions two other battles in the same sentence and year in which the Britons (“Brittones”) were the victors, Garthmailauc and Cat Pencon, which are not relevant here. The wording apud Cornuenses and the mention of other battles and the victors being Britons leaves open whether the Britons fighting at Hehil were only the Cornish, more generally Dumnonians, or included Britons from what we now call Wales. In the AC there is no reference to Vikings in 721, no reference to king Ine, no reference to whom the Cornish fought though that can be reasonably deduced. Hehil or Heil, as the texts say in Latin, has not been indisputably identified but the present Camel estuary is more likely than the present Hayle estuary which is very much father westward and probably beyond the West Saxon reach at this date. There is no reference to any of the 721 events in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (ASC).
Is there another early source than AC and ASC for the 721 data?
The ASC is explicit that the Vikings did not appear until much later in the eighth century. An appearance in 721 in battle would probably have been noted. Crococolana 16:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Another query if I may. Your draft paragraph cites Halliday as saying that in 815 king Egbert "exacted homage from the local leaders." Where does Halliday get this from? The ASC says only that 'West Wales' was devasted from east to west, nothing about homage.
I wonder whether it would be better to put the 838 battle site as Hengesdune, as in the ASC, and gloss that as most probably Hingston Down.
I think the ASC and AC should be referred to as early sources in the list of references. Crococolana 23:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
HINGSTON DOWN. Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio. I was trying to compress two ideas into an overloaded single comment. (First) No, I don't know of anyone who has suggested that the battle did not happen at modern Hingston Down but I am cautious.Is there any evidence, apart from linguistic similarity which can be misleading, that leads us directly from Hengesdune (one of the ASC words)to modern Hingston Down? Perhaps I am being over-cautious and I am happy to yield to your view.
(Second)There are two places called Hingston Down today: (a) near Moretonhampstead, Devon and (b) near Callington, Cornwall. Both are around the Devon/Cornwall border. The ASC does not locate the battlesite and I think it is impossible to say which it is without material findings or possibly a history of the naming of the places.
I think my compression misleads and we should explicitly point out there are two possibilities. I have added to the excellent paragraph of qp10qp. I have left my probably in but do remove it if you think it unnecessary. Crococolana 14:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Why was this town removed? It is not important if it is major or not, just that it is a place of interest.-- User:Filll 16:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Mammal4 has created WikiProject Cornwall to improve and extend the coverage of Cornwall-related articles. Please visit, and sign up if you want to contribute. Thanks! DuncanHill 13:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
the article says, in its first sentence, that Cornwall is
I know what this is getting at, but its clumsily put. It seems to be a combination of two things that would make sense
and
however, there's nothing west of the Tamar that isn't Cornwall (more or less), so saying it is "on the peninsula west of " is a bit odd, and implies other non-Cornwall things share the peninsula. I'd also be hesistant to call Cornwall a peninsula in its own right, given the geography involved. How does
sounds a replacement? Morwen - Talk 14:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I have again removed what I consider to be superfluous information at the foot of the page, namely, the boxes which contain a list of the counties and districts of England. This information is irrelevant dross and can be reached (if needed) by appropriate links elsewhere in the page -- TGG 16:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Celtic nations and their languages | |||
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This has nothing to do with superfluous information or "green computing". If it was then the same argument should be applied to the cornish flag that features prominatly in the infobox and twice in the navigation box at the bottom (just in case you didn't get it first time). The fact is you have a problem with the legal status of Cornwall you should be either arguing for the removal of all flags otherwise its just a POV pushing campain. josh ( talk) 18:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph in the History section on saints is troubling and it carries no references. I do not think comments like "St Ia...sailed from Ireland to what is now St Ives on an ivy leaf" and "St Piran arrived from Ireland at what is now Perranporth with a millstone around his neck" should appear in an encyclopedia without being marked as nonsense. I think we should make some attempt to try to distinguish pious romance from hard fact or likelihood. I have replaced the paragraph with a minimal one, more suited for a general history introduction section. Perhaps any referenced additions can be made in the specialist history of Cornwall section. Crococolana 13:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help)However, what I am saying is that an encyclopedia should distinguish between (a) statements which are nonsense such as the three aforesaid and (b) statements that are science-based evidential facts or theories such as king Richard died at the battle of Bosworth and the world is spheroid-shaped. An encyclopedia can usefully distinguish them from interpretations and judgements too.
(Incidentally, the statement "St Ia sailed from Ireland on an ivy leaf" has three problematic elements: "St Ia," "from Ireland," and "sailed on an ivy leaf.") Crococolana 10:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I have added to the saints entry. I now wonder whether a specialist history section is needed; I wonder whether an introductory history and more detailed one is too confusing. Crococolana 20:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Both this talk page and the article appear to be getting a bit long. I suggest that some of the material in the article be farmed out to other linked articles. I also suggest some of this talk page be archived.-- Filll 23:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
In top right of main page there are two conflicting lists of populaton, density and admin pop. - which list is correct?
The links at 8, 9 and 10 in the "References" do not work - does anyone have correct links?
DuncanHill
20:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Is the difference not the difference in population between the traditional county (which includes the Scillies) and the administrative county (which doesn't)? Esquimo 10:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello Everyone, I have been thinking long and hard about this UK / England business. I think when we present information in wikipedia we have a big responsibility because many internet users use this as a source for information. Firstly I agree there is strong feeling in Cornwall about its unique status and seperation from England - I feel it, support it and am actively involved in campaigning to sort it out. However we need to also consider political fact, at the moment Cornwall is subject to English and Welsh Law on a day to day basis and the control of UK government, natural Cornish Law (stannary etc) although never repealed is actively ignored by the UK authorities. Essentially we are in a big constitutional and poltical mess made worse by centuries of bumbling and self interest all we can do is examine the hard facts
My proposal would be that a common description should be something like this
[Town Name], Cornwall, England (disputed), UK.
The 'disputed' would then link to the 'constitutional status of cornwall page' with a mature debate about history, current position etc. I don't like it any more than Pediac does to be truthfull !! If I was presenting my own work only I would say that Cornwall alone was sufficient but I am not and we need to be balanced however personally distasteful we find another position user:reedgunner
Hi,
Could we please have some help over in Penwith regarding the Cornwall/England/United Kingdom issue? I'm sure that this must have been discussed to death here somewhere. Essentially there is some debate ( Talk:Carbis Bay, St Just in Penwith, User Talk:Steinsky, User Talk:Pediac) over how settlements in Cornwall should be described. To summarise, one side believes that only England should be used in the description (e.g. Exampleville, Cornwall, England) whilst the other thinks that Exampleville, Cornwall, United Kingdom is a more complete designation. The first side argues that using England alone makes these articles consistent with other pages on English towns. Whilst it is true that towns in England generally use the England tag rather than Uk, in contrast, pages written for Cornish towns more often use the Uk designation, and Wikipedia is supposed to be about consensus. I suppose that there are two issue here 1) Constitutional status of Cornwall and a soapbox for Cornish/English nationalist sentiment 2)Using Uk is technically more concise, as it contains more information, and that actually the Uk is the sovereign state (signs treaties, passes laws etc) not England, which is not an independent country (yet!). I have suggested a compromise between the two designations (e.g.Exampleville, Cornwall, England; a constituent of the United Kingdom) which I personally think is a bit longwinded but at least addresses both points of view. It would be really great if we could have some fresh heads look at this, especially as it is likley already to have been discussed on this page. If we come up with a policy on this, then it will save time as we can refer people to it in future when the inevitable England/UK revert pingpong kicks off again! Mammal4 21:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC) (t)
Hi, I must admit that it is certainly debatable that Cornwall is part of England... Personally I think the debate stems from either people just being ignorant or probably for most of the people here it depends on your definition 'is part of.' I think the people who say it isn't mean it wasn't historicaly, it is culturally/ identity wise seperate, it is technically constitutionally seperate. Whereas the people who think its part of england mean 'it is treated as such now by most modern institutions.'
However the trend is towards increased recognition (by this I mean compared to 10 years ago rather than 'historically.' Its not something that is well known outside of cornwall and I think even though probably most cornish people would say it isn't i think most would be hard pressed to state actual documents (though they exist.)
Therefore I would agree with using the 'disputed' label, perhaps doubling up. I don't know about 'flags' at the bottom but putting a cornish one linking to somewhere is not the same as actually giving a side whereas putting an english one would be.
I think the 'disputed' idea is good. The only thing i would thought to be wary of is the constitutional status page which last thing i looked at was a bit thin, should be checked occasionaly for vandalism or whatever, also if it still is thin it should be bulked out with some more references. 131.111.8.99
Have to disagree. Although Cornwall is administered as a county, it has never been formally made a part of England, so cannot be considered as such. Using the word disputed is important to make this clear.
It should also be made clear from the beginning, that is an historic nation of Britain, although its political status is disputed. [[ Tashtastic]]
Cornwall has been a region of England since it was conquered by King Athelstan. The dukedom of Cornwall was first conferred on Edward the Black Prince by his father Edward III in 1343. "We will and firmly command for us and our heirs the said Duke may have and hold to him and the eldest sons of the said Dukes, of the same place hereditary to succeed in the Kingdom of England" (the appointment of) "the Sheriff of Cornwall"(and to have)"manors tc., and, "the stannaries of Cornwall". The text also stipulates "to remain to the same for ever...........in no wise separated........nor to any other or others."
I think the telling phrase there is "hereditary to succeed in the Kingdom of England"
Some Facts about The Duchy
There is an obvious contradiction between what is officially presented, and publicly perceived, as "the Duchy of Cornwall" and what the Officers of the Duchy of Cornwall submitted as conclusive evidence to support the Duke's right to the ownership of the foreshore, around Cornwall, between high and low water mark back in 1856-57. This was in a case of private arbitration between the Crown and the Duchy where the Duchy successfully showed title to 'the soil of Cornwall'.
Some of these 'official' views are given in the 650th Anniversary publication "The Duchy of Cornwall"(1987) where we see such incredible statements as :
"To confuse matters even more, the Duke owns more land outside Cornwall than he owns in the county. His Duchy is not the county and the county is not the Duchy....... the largest part of the Duchy that the visitor is ever likely to see is the beach upon which he disports himself. The Duchy owns less than three per cent of Cornish land, only twelve per cent of its total land holding."
Crispin Gill, Editor, Introduction p.14
and :
" Many people confuse the Duchy with county, but the two had, and have, different identities; only about seventeen per cent of the land surface of the county has ever belonged to the Duchy."
Graham Haslam, Archivist 1987 Chapter 1, p.24
who also says on page 21 :
" On a spring day in 1337 Edward III created the first English duchy. It was accomplished with all the solemnity and dignity which could be mustered; the King proclaimed the charter before the nobility and commonality assembled in open Parliament making his son and heir, Edward of Woodstock, Duke of Cornwall. The origins of the Duchy are not, as are so many other important English institutions, obscured by the mists of time. It did not grow, develop or evolve from modest arcane features. On 16th March 1337 it did not exist; on 17th March it did."
The Royal Duchy of Cornwall did evolve, in fact, by augmenting the existing Cornish Earldom and this was at a date prior to the 16th March 1337. The First Duchy Charter, inappropriately called 'the Charter of Creation', dated 17th March 1337, does, in fact, refer to the Duchy as having already been created - as does a Patent creating the new Earl of Salisbury dated 16th March 1337 - and even states when :
"..being in our present Parliament, convened at Westminster, on Monday next after the feast of St. Matthias the Apostle last past, ...."
The Officers of the Duchy, during the arbitration over the foreshore, estimated this to be:
"The particular time of this investiture, that is to say, that it preceded the 1st Duchy Charter, and was on some day between the 24th of February, the Feast of St. Mathias, and the 16th of March, is demonstrated by the patent of creation of the Earl of Salisbury, who, with others, was at that time created Earl in honour of the Prince, as stated by Lord Coke."
The original Act of creation is no longer in existence but has been referred to extensively in later Acts of Parliament. The following extract, from these references, is very significant,
"...that the County of Cornwall should always remain as a Duchy to the eldest sons of the Kings of England... without being given elsewhere".
The Officers of the Duchy reinforced this point with the following item -
"Now in a Charter granted to the first Duke by the King who created the Duchy, we find part of the preamble as follows :-
"Considerantes itaque qualiter Comitatus Cornubiæ jam Ducatus Cornubiæ nuncupatus magnam a jam diu suorum jurium sustinuit sectionem et desiderantes ipsum Ducatum redintegrare et ejus jura recolligere sic dispersa."
There are two conclusions to be drawn from these words, strongly confirmatory of what has been previously stated ; first, that the Comitatus Cornubiæ had a different meaning from the expression County of Cornwall, taken as a division of the kingdom for the purposes of civil government ; the latter portion of the sentence quoted, as well as the subject-matter of the Grant, is entirely inconsistent with such a construction, but entirely consistent with the view that the comitatus was a great Honor or Lordship, from which properties and rights (not in Cornwall) previously appertaining to it had been severed. And, secondly, which is the main point in this part of the case, that the Ducatus Cornubiæ entirely corresponded with what had been the Comitatus Cornubiæ in every respect except in name."
The First Charter was only intended as an enumeration as to what comprised the Duchy in terms of possessions and rights for the reason it states:
".. lest hereafter in any wise it should be turned into doubt, what or how much the same Duke, .... ought to have in the name of the Duchy aforesaid, we have caused all things in kind, which we will to pertain to the same Duchy, to be inserted in this our charter...."
The enumeration was deemed to be necessary because some earlier grants of certain rights and possessions away from the whole could be construed as a severance from the former Earldom and thus the simple phrase of :
"Earldom now a Duchy"
was not considered sufficient in itself to prevent the existence of any 'doubt'. Hence the purpose of the enumeration was to reaffirm and bring all things back together again under the honor of the Duchy.
It should be noted that the first item to be enumerated in the first Duchy Charter was, in fact, the "vicecomitatus" of Cornwall "with the appurtenances" and the right, according to custom, of appointing the Sheriff of Cornwall. This can only be construed as confirming the grant of both the territory and Government of Cornwall to the Duke. In both the Duchy and the former Earldom the Sheriff was the officer of the Earl or Duke and not the officer of the King as is the case elsewhere. The next enumerations identified the rights, revenues and possessions within Cornwall followed by those things which were located outside Cornwall and yet still part of this territorial honor.
All things enumerated were inextricably linked to the honor known as the Duchy of Cornwall with the words:
"...we do by this our present charter, for us and our heirs, annex and unite to the aforesaid Duchy, to remain to the same for ever, So that from the same Duchy they may at no time be in anywise separated..."
The reason for this limiting clause was in order to protect the Duchy from future predatory monarchs. How about predatory parliaments? There are those who have argued that because items 'were enumerated' that only those items specifically mentioned actually passed to the Dukes. This was more than adequately shown, by the Officers of the Duchy not to be the case! The Duchy Rights to the Foreshore being a clear example of the fallacy of such a superficial view and one which - together with the first item enumerated - is also immediately at odds with the bizarre views expressed in 'the anniversary' publication regarding how much land was ever a part of the Duchy! How can the British (alias English) Government, and others, say that the Duchy is only a landed estate and has nothing to do with what they, and their puppets, ignominiously refer to as 'the county'? Perhaps the Duchy, and the Crown, Establishments could be invited to make a public statement about this and other matters within this site?
The 2nd and 3rd Duchy Charters had the effect of transferring away from the Crown all Crown rights and fees in Cornwall which, for what ever reason, had not been parcel of the former Earldom, except those classified under Royal Jurisdiction (treason, ecclesiastical patronage etc.), and which clearly illustrates the full extent, and intent, of the Honor known as 'The Duchy of Cornwall'. The Officers of the Duchy, in 1856, had no hesitation in stating that the Duke was "quasi-sovereign within his Duchy". A Duchy which they so adequately revealed was the whole territory of Cornwall. Contrary to the official propaganda, and high level lies from those who still dominate us, the Duchy is 'Cornwall' as shown and not merely the private estates of the Duke.
The reasons for the creation of the Honor of Duchy of Cornwall were given, inter alia, as:
"the restoration of old ones",
viz. the Honor (of Cornwall)
"over which a while ago Dukes for a long time successively presided as chief rulers" .....
and
"desiring that places of note of the same kingdom should be adorned with their pristine honors".
Another reason given being that
"... lands subjected to our dominion, may be more securely and fitly defended against the attempts of enemies and adversaries......"
It must be noted that the king was not referring to the time when Cornwall had its most powerful Earls, Richard and Edmund, but referred to the time prior to the subjugation of Cornwall by Athelstan. The Officers of the Duchy were able to bring to the arguments many extant documents which clearly indicate that the focus of the grant was not merely a collection of estates but was a territorial grant as is obvious from the following extract from their evidence:
"About 60 years after the creation of the Duchy, we find in the Charter of 1st Henry IV. to Prince Henry, the eldest Son of that King, as follows : "We have made and created Henry our most dear first-begotten Son, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall and Earl of Chester, and have given and granted, and by our Charter have confirmed to him the said Principality, Duchy, and Earldom, that he may preside there, and by presiding, may direct and defend the said parts. We have invested him with the said Principality, Duchy, and Earldom, per sertum in capite et annulum in digito aureum ac virgam auream juxta morem."
A further point of constitutional interest and importance, already mentioned under 'Cornish Milestones' is the legal fact that Cornwall was considered as distinct from England and the Crown. It is sad indeed that a Cornish historical perspective is wilfully denied by Anglocentric retrospective superficiality. Likewise, to call the creation of the Duchy of Cornwall an "English institution" based, as it was, on contemporary continental lines, or alternatively to reflect Cornwall's status prior to subjugation, is arrogant and dismissive.
The Duke of Cornwall within his Duchy was a vassal of the English king. This corresponded with the period when Norman kings of England - as Dukes of Aquitaine - were vassals of the king of France. This did not imply that Aquitaine was anything other than Aquitaine. Are we to assume, also, that the Principality of Wales is an "English institution". It is an overwhelming fact of history that Cornwall, as a non-English 'British Province', whether as the Earldom of Cornwall or the Dukedom of Cornwall, never merged in the Crown in the absence of an Earl or Duke but was, and is, held 'ut de honor' [Comitatus or Ducatus] 'in manu regis existente'.
Another point worthy of mention and discussion - and there are many! - is the statement, in the aforesaid 'anniversary' publication, that:
" Richard's son, Edmund,succeeded to the Earldom in 1272, but he died eight years later and the estates according to law reverted to the Crown.."
Graham Haslam, Archivist 1987 Chapter 1, p.23.
This is incorrect on three important points!
1 - Edmund actually died in the 28th year of the reign of Edward the First (1272 - 1307) - "on the morrow of St Michael, in the 28th year ending". This makes Edmund's death circa AD 1300 and, in truth, twenty eight years as Earl of Cornwall.
2 - it was the 'Earldom of Cornwall' - NOT "the estates" - which passed to Edward the First.
3 - that whilst the territorial possession did pass to the King "according to law" this should not be construed as simply "reverted to the Crown" like some homeless escheat. It passed to the King as a true inheritance because the King was Edmund's next heir (his cousin) - a line of succession which prevailed up to the creation of the Duchy. The whole of the archivist's statement gives a clear indication of the subjectivity and questionable treatment given to the subject!
The following extracts from 'the Arbitration' show the preamble to, and the conclusions drawn from, an analysis of the Duchy Charters and other relevant material by the Officers of the Duchy of Cornwall as part of their Preliminary Statement.
"But the full and real effect of the Duchy Charters themselves will be more satisfactorily and conclusively shown by considering the construction put upon them in early times, not only in grants and legal proceedings in which they are recited or noticed, but also by the Courts of Judicature and the Legislature of the Country."
The analysis proceeds......
"In conclusion, it is submitted that the facts and authorities before referred to are sufficient to establish,- 1st. That Cornwall, like Wales, was at the time of the Conquest, and was subsequently treated in many respects, as distinct from England. 2nd. That it was held by the Earls of Cornwall with the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded the Seignory or territorial dominion. 3rd. That the Dukes of Cornwall have from the creation of the Duchy enjoyed the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded seignory or territorial dominion, and that to a greater extent than had been enjoyed by the Earls. And lastly. That the Duchy Charters have always been construed and treated, not merely by the Courts of Judicature, but also by the Legislature of the Country, as having vested in the Dukes of Cornwall the whole territorial interest and dominion of the Crown in and over the entire County of Cornwall. Duchy of Cornwall, Somerset House, May, 1855."
As these extracts are taken from the 'Preliminary Statement' of the Duchy - an arbitration that spanned some three years! - the following extract from the Duchy should serve to show that subsequent argument strengthened, rather than weakened, the claim on behalf of the Dukes of Cornwall.
"Since this subject was under the consideration of the Law Officers and Counsel of the Duchy in the spring of last year, further searches have been made amongst the ancient records of the Country, which have resulted in the production of some additional evidence, which seems materially to support the conclusions previously arrived at, and has enabled the Duchy Officers to present the Case of His Royal Highness the Duke of Cornwall in a more precise and definite form than was done in the Preliminary Statement prepared in the spring of 1855.
Duchy of Cornwall, Somerset House, 12th February, 1857."
In a spate of letters to the Editor of the West Briton newspaper, September 2000, to which reference was made to this particular case of Arbitration, there was a letter from a particular gentleman whose quality of life seems to be totally dependent upon trivialising the Cornish Debate. He is the pioneer of fallacious argument and ludicrous statement and offers nothing but the opportunity to maintain an ongoing dialogue. On this occasion he makes the comment:
"The actual judgement as to the precise grounds of the Duchy's success" namely, in the arbitration over foreshore rights - "is never quoted." and poses the mischievous question: "I wonder why?" My offer to be allowed to enlighten him by quoting from the actual award of Sir John Patteson's arbitration on 10th June 1857 was not printed but is included here for the benefit of others:
"...I have carefully considered all the Statutes, Charters, documents and cases which have been produced or referred to by the Counsel for the Crown and for the Duchy ; and also all the arguments which they have adduced... ...I am of the opinion and so decide that as between the Crown and the Duke of Cornwall the right to the Minerals between High and Low Water marks has passed to and is vested in the Duke of Cornwall as part of the Soil and territorial possessions of the Duchy... "
The lucrative nature of the ownership of the property had caused the Crown to make a predatory claim of prima facie right of ownership of the property. The main thrust of the Duchy argument was - and I quote :
"...It is contended, on the part of the Duchy, that this general prima facie right of the Crown has not application, as against the Duke of Cornwall, within his Duchy or County of Cornwall, and, consequently, not to the particular property forming the subject of the present question..."
The Duke of Cornwall in his Foreword to the 650th Anniversary publication "The Duchy of Cornwall (1987)" states that "The Duchy is above all else a landed estate and will continue to be so". In my opinion the Rights of the Cornish to be seen to be Cornish - not English! - are implicit in the creation of the institution which gives him his title and it is a sad day indeed, for democracy, when a future king shows such little respect for the Rights of his subjects. The constitutional chicanery which has hidden from view the true status of the Duchy of Cornwall has also wilfully removed the institution which enshrines our Cornish Rights, without affording any form of compensatory political accommodation.
This is a situation which cannot be allowed to continue and some measure of redress and accountability must be demanded.
Another independent glimpse of the Duchy as it 'do belong to be' is given to us by Richard Pearse within an essay on "The Ancient Duchy of Cornwall" contained within his book "The Land beside the Celtic Sea - Aspects of Cornwall's Past" (1983) [
ISBN
0 907566 48 0 or 0 907566 49 9]. The observation is concerning the establishment of the Prince's Council in 1343 and is as follows - my square brackets:
"In 1343 the council quickly became a centralised system of government on similar lines to the King's Council. It welded the widely spread lands into a closely-knit whole. It was staffed by civil servants of high rank who were often trained in and drafted from the King's Exchequer and Chancery, the highest departments of state. The functions of the prince's council were advisory and to a lesser extent legislative and executive. Its ordinances had the effect of law within its territories. The council was flexible, and adapted itself to rule in the name of the prince the three distinct, separate and virtually independent territories: the earldom of Chester, the duchy of Cornwall and the principality of Wales, and eventually the fourth - the principality of Aquitaine. Each was governed as a separate entity according to its ancient traditions and customs, each under the supervision and control of experienced civil servants. Prince Edward thus became the direct ruler of large parts of England [sic], Wales and France. His territories constituted individual states within the state. ...This measure of autonomy has never been as great as it was during the first duke's lifetime. It has disappeared, but a desire for a limited measure of autonomy has persisted ever since, backed by a strong tradition of an ancient Celtic cultural background. This cultural background has tended to isolate Cornwall from the rest of England[sic]. Yet there has been no isolation from the outside world."
Another aspect worthy of further consideration, given the dubious nature of the Crown's chicanery over Duchy Rights, is a claim made by the Duchy at the end of the 18th-century to appoint an Admiral for Cornwall. The Crown offered 'an opinion' on the claim but, for some reason, the matter was not pursued further by the Duchy nor developed within the above arbitration because "...the fact can have little or no bearing upon the present question.". The relevance here is that the Duchy felt that they had a claim of right over the seas around Cornwall but not, presumeably, worth the effort of proving it.
Considering that there was a principal focus during the 19th Century to diminish the integrity and impact of the Duchy of Cornwall, it does not require much of an imagination to appreciate that the last thing that the Crown, or Paliament, wanted was an in-depth legal debate into what comprised the honor known as the Duchy of Cornwall. It is my opinion that the case of arbitration, referred to above, was contrived by the Crown in order to ensure a compromise which whilst giving - because it was known to be incontestable! - the award between high and low water marks to the Duchy, awarded the most beneficial portion - that of mining beyond the low water mark - to the Crown. Had the whole matter been decided simply upon 'legal ownership' then it is most probable that both properties would have been found in favour of the Dukes of Cornwall in right of the Duchy. The value, however, to the Cornish people was in the form and depth of the Duchy argument.
Given that the 'official' view of the Duchy of Cornwall seems to be built upon rather dubious foundations and that this can be shown to have consequences which are sinister and repugnant to the rights of the Cornish people within their own territory, then there is an urgent need for an external agency to intercede on behalf of the Cornish people!
With the inexorable tendency towards a form of British Republican State, it is imperative, therefore, that the real truth about the marginalisation - to use a euphemism! - of the Cornish people is subjected to the deepest possible academic and judicial analysis before Cornish Rights are irrevocably swept aside by 'English' political and constitutional change. It is indeed ironic that the so-called 'Mother of Parliaments' should have learnt the art of democratic debate through the existence of the Duchy of Cornwall!!
When did Cornwall join the English/UK parliament?
What special provisions were made for Cornwall as distinct entity?
Was not the joining of the government confirmation that Cornwall was to be ruled as, and remained as, a part of England?
Bretagne 44 16:08, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
There is a LOT that could be included regarding the history of Cornwall from the sub-Roman period until it's Saxon subjugation and the medieval period. Should this information be contained on this page "cornwall" or on a seperate "kingdom of cerniw" page? Also, there still seems to be a lot of confusion as to the origin of the world "cornwall". There is a debate as to whether there was a Cornovii tribal group who were subordinate to the dumnonii or if the Kern prefix is a geographical name only referring to the peninsular's shape (like a "horn"). I notice that one of these theories has precedence at the moment without any discussion of the other theory, nor with any evidence to support it (there is one piece of evidence supporting the Cornovii theory which is a settlement name recorded in one Roman charter) James Frankcom 11:35, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
The etmology is of the Saxon word Cornwall is meaning South Weahlas - South Forigeners.-- Rhydd Meddwl 17:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Extracted from a commission of the first Duke of Cornwall, 25 Edw. III to "John Dabernoun, our Steward and Sheriff of Cornwall greeting. On account of certain escheats we command you that you inquire by all the means in your power how much land and rents, goods and chattels, whom and in whom, and of what value they which those persons of Cornwall and England have, whose names we send in a schedule enclosed......!
Bretagne 44 13:26, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
This was just the common politness of the day. The Duke would address the people gathered there (as vested in the Sheriff of Cornwall), and then the greater mass (ie. England). It in no way indicates that Cornwall was a distinct place.
Also the fact that Cornwall was then, as you so rightly point out, under the control of an English Duke, only adds to its being a part of England.
1. Is there any need for the coat of arms of Cornwall County Council (1940's) to be displayed in the info box ? Wouldn't the St Piran's Flag suffice ? or perhaps with the plain Cornish 15 bezants shield ? http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=13148
2. Ethnicity -" 99.0% White, of which 6.8% Cornish" should be amended - everyone knows the true figure is nearer 45 - 50%. see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3527673.stm The Cornish are one of 79 UK Census 2001 ethnic group categories but the last Census did not include a tick box for the Cornish to register !!! (see code 06 - Census 2001 Ethnic Codes)
For the first time in a UK Census, those wishing to describe their ethnicity as Cornish were given their own code number (06) on the 2001 UK Census form, alongside those for people wishing to describe themselves as English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish. Although happy with this development there were reservations about the overwhelming lack of publicity surrounding the issue, the lack of a clear tick-box for the Cornish option on the census and the need to deny being British in order to write "Cornish" in the field provided..... Bwizz 17:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
"Using the council coat of arms is standard practice" -- then why is there no sign of it on the " Devon", Tyne, South Yorks, Notts and Hereford pages ???... Bwizz 20:13 10 April 2006 (UTC)
The duchy and county are seperate. We have argued about this before. Using duchy symbols is POV the council coat of arms is the only official symbol.
josh (
talk)
18:20, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
"99.0% White, of which 6.8% Cornish"
I doubt the Cornish constitute only 7% of the population! -- MacRusgail 16:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I notice this dispute is ongoing. Perhaps it might help achieve consensus if the article about the county council area were moved to Cornwall County Council (currently a redirect to Cornwall), which, after all, is what it's about. Then it could be made clear what arms/statistics/etc. pertain to the county council, and what doesn't, but still pertains to cornwall as a non-local-government-administrative entity, and cornwall's history, etc. on the main namespace. What do people think about this? I think it would greatly simplify creating articles acceptable to both parties. Stringops 17:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
1) Why do the duchy Charters that are still law today talk about the whole of Cornwall being augmented into a Duchy?
2) Why was the county of Cornwall successfully described as a Duchy in the Cornish Foreshore Case of 1856?
On behalf of the Duchy in its successful action against the Crown, which resulted in the Cornwall Submarine Mines Act of 1858, Sir George Harrison (Attorney General for Cornwall) makes this submission.
a That Cornwall, like Wales, was at the time of the Conquest, and was subsequently treated in many respects as distinct from England.
b That it was held by the Earls of Cornwall with the rights and prerogative of a County Palatine, as far as regarded the Seignory or territorial dominion.
c That the Dukes of Cornwall have from the creation of the Duchy enjoyed the rights and prerogatives of a County Palatine, as far as regarded seignory or territorial dominion, and that to a great extent by Earls.
d That when the Earldom was augmented into a Duchy, the circumstances attending to it's creation, as well as the language of the Duchy Charter, not only support and confirm natural presumption, that the new and higher title was to be accompanied with at least as great dignity, power, and prerogative as the Earls enjoyed, but also afforded evidence that the Duchy was to be invested with still more extensive rights and privileges.
e The Duchy Charters have always been construed and treated, not merely by the Courts of Judicature, but also by the Legislature of the Country, as having vested in the Dukes of Cornwall the whole territorial interest and dominion of the Crown in and over the entire County of Cornwall.
3) Why did the Duchy of Cornwall Management Act confirm that the Duke possesses seignory and territorial rights befitting a king in 1863 if the Duchy is just a landed estate?
4) Why did the Kilbrandon Report into the British constitution in 1969-71 recommend that Cornwall (the territory of) should be referred to as a Duchy in light of its constitutional position?
5) Why does the Duke of Cornwall have rights of governance and honours over the whole territory of Cornwall but not Duchy lands outside Cornwall? For instance the right of wreck on all Cornish shores, the right of Bona Vicantia / treasure trove for the county of Cornwall, the right to Swans and Sturgeon caught in Cornwall, the duty to appoint the Sheriff of Cornwall and preside over the Stannary Parliaments.
6) Why does the Duchy have its own exchequer and other arms of governance and indeed why is the duchy described in law as a body of governance if it is just a landed estate?
7) Why did this definition of county in the Complete Oxford English Dictionary (2nd Ed 1989 p. 1044.) describe Cornwall as a Duchy?
Whence county was gradually adopted in English (scarcely before the 15th century) as an alternative name for the shire, and in due course applied to similar divisions made in Wales and in Ireland, as well as the shires of Scotland, and also extended to those separate parts of the realm which never were shires, as The Duchy of Cornwall, Orkney and Shetland. Part definition of the term County.
8) Why did the 1998 Tamar Bridge act confirm the power of the Duke and border of Cornwall (the Duchy) if the Duchy of Cornwall is just a landed estate?
Aztecy 19:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
1) At what point do the charters describe the county as being a duchy. In fact their are several points where it refers to the county and duchy seperately and at one point states that 'lands in and outside the county of cornwall are annexed to the duchy'. Why would they haveto be annexed if the whole county is the possesion of the prince.
2) Ah the foreshore case. All the points that you give were arguments by the attorney for the duchy and have no significance in English law. The arbritration was a comprimise in the end with the duchy getting mining right 'between the high and low water mark'.
3) 5) and 6) I've grouped these together because they are all part of the same misconception. Yes the duchy has rights beyond normal land ownership. This is not unique. The City of Bristol and City of London museums both have right of salvage in their own cities.
This is a classic logical fallacy. Just because the prince has rights otherwise reserved for the monach doesn't make him the same as. He doesn't appoint the Lord-Lieutenant, can't raise taxes, can't raise an army etc etc.
4) As I've already pointed out its just a report. The government has loads of these and ignore most of them. You see a news report every week about a report recommending that we pay 50% tax or work until we're 90. No of them come to anything unless the government wants it to. In short, they mean nothing.
7) A dictionary defines words. Why the hell would it have a place in it? They don't dictate political divisions in the UK so like the report it has no relivence.
8) I presume this is what your refering to. Note it also includes crown estates and government owned land. So it does refer to the Landed estate. The act also refers to a seperate definition of the 'county of cornwall'.
All these arguments are irrelvent anyway. The county council are the controlling power of the county as established in the 1889 and 1974 acts. These clearly supercede any rights that the prince may have had. josh ( talk) 21:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
In the 38th year of the reign of Henry VI. we find a bill introduced into Parliament which, after reciting at length the three Duchy Charters, proceeds as follows :
“By force of which Grants, Ordinances, Annexions, and Confirmations, the said Edward, then Duke of Cornwall, as Duke of Cornwall, was seized of all the said Duchie and Countie, Castell, Maners, Honoures, Parkes, Boroughs, Baillywyks, Bcddarics, Fyshings, Touncs, Mills, Prises, and Customes of Wynes, Proffitts of Portes and Havenes, Wreyks, Proffitts of Shires, Hundreds and Courtes, Stannarie with Cunage of the same, Percquisitcs of the Myncre and Stannar, with Water, with Franchises, Liberties, and all maner Proffitts and Possessions comprised in the said Letters Patent and Tenures of the same.
And the said Edward sometyme Duke of Cornwall and the said victorious Prince your fader, in the lyfe of your said Noble Aiell as Duke of Cornwall, used to have and had (amongst other) as parcel of the said Duchie, Fynes for alienation of all Lands, Tenementes, and Possessions holden of them in chief within the said Countie, and the first seizine of all Lands and Tenements of every tenant that held of them in chief within the said Countie, after their decesse and the issuez thereof taken to their owen use unto the time that they that right had to the same Landes and Tenementes sued and had lyvere thereof out of the said Duke's hands, as they should have doone oute of the King´s hands iff thay had holden them of the King in chief, an in like forme as your true liegemen doone and own to do within Counte Palatyne, notwithstandyng that thoo tenantez held in other places of the King in chief.”
After further mention, the Parliament Roll then proceeds :
“Which Petition and Schedules were brought and deliberated upon by the Commons of the Kingdom of England in the same Parliament, to which the same Commons gave their assent in this form – ‘To this Bill, and to the Schedules to this Bill annexed, the Commons have assented.´ ”
“Which Petition, Schedules, and Assent having been read, heard, and fully understood. in the aforesaid Parliament, by the advice and consent of the Lords spiritual and temporal in the same Parliament, assembled by the authority of the same Parliament, an answer was given thereto in form following – Let it be done as prayed, saving to the King certain things, in manner and form following - Soit fait come il est desire, saufes au Roy certyns choses, en manere & forme ensuantz – Alway forseyn that all avoidances of Bishopriks, Dignities, and grete officers pertaynyng to the said Principalte and Duchie, be and stande at our will, nominatione, gift, and grante, this act notwithstanding.”
It will be observed, that there are two very remarkable features about this Act, which it is conceived must place beyond all doubt the title of the Duke to the County of Cornwall, and to all those prerogative and seignorial rights which would naturally accompany the grant. In the first place, there is in effect an express declaration by the whole Parliament that, by virtue of the three recited charters, the Duke did become entitled to the whole County of Cornwall ; and, secondly, the fact of its having been considered necessary to except the appointment of Bishops from the operation of the Act, shows clearly the extensive and almost unlimited prerogative rights which at that time were considered to be attached to the Duchy.
So from this we can clearly see that Cornwall was a county and a Duchy; a county palatine. Bretagne 44 10:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Talskiddy 09:36, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes but that's the point; Cornwall (all of) can still be legally defined as a Duchy, see the Cornish foreshore case of the 19th century. Also a distinction needs to be drawn between lands the Duchy owns (inside and outside Cornwall) and the Duchy itself. The Crown of the UK could own lands inside and outside the UK but this would not stop the King/Queen being the head of state for all of the UK and the whole UK being the Kingdom. Bretagne 44 10:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC) 12:01, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The foreshore case, as has been shown above, can be dismissed as argument. In any case, arguing that the duchy is a special case is rather specious in todays terms, no one outside of a minority of Cornish Nationalists, believe that this case holds any water whatsoever. The fact is, that since time immemorial, Cornwall has opperated, been controlled, and has been believed to be a county in England by those within and without it. Until a majority of those who dwell in Cornwall desire it to be changed, the point is moot.
updated link * The Cornish Assembly - Senedh Kernow
Look at 1333 - Cornwall gains independence from England. What event is it referring to?
Dydh da, I have proposed the creation of a Portal for Cornwall. Please support this if you would. Link: [2] -- Joowwww 22:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I support the creation of a Cornish portal. Bretagne 44 15:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Aroberts, what do you think you are doing? Please address my following concerns:
If you fail to co-operate, I'll be requesting assistance from your good friend User:VampWillow ;-) Telex 12:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Please read archives 1 & 2 - this has already been discussed at great depth.
Blaid 21:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The proposal to create a Portal:Cornwall has been accepted. To create the portal, please see Wikipedia:Portal/Instructions.-- cj | talk 07:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
As Cornwall is recognised as one of six Celtic nations and the Cornish were recognised as being ethnically distinct on the last 2001 ONS UK Census ( Cornish ethnic coding = 06) see Census 2001 Ethnic Codes I think it should at least have it's national flag in the Wikipedia info box - the same as Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man, England and Northern Ireland !! Pretending that Cornwall is exactly the same as every other county in England as some would like us to believe is non NPOV.
Here are some facts to consider.
1. Cornwall is legally a Duchy and not an administrative county which it has illegally been for nearly 400 years . Cornwall is a Duchy no matter what the current government says.
2. Although our own Parliament was suspended in the 18th Century, we still have Independent Sovereign Rights that are fixed in law, namely the Stannary Parliaments.
3. Henry VIII listed England and Cornwall separately, in the list of his realms given in his Coronation address.
4. Cornwall's right to its own sovereign Parliament, and the powers it possesses under the Charter of Pardon were confirmed as valid in British law by the Lord Chancellor in 1977.
5. No record exists of any formal annexation of Cornwall to England.
6. Cornwall is a member of the Federal Union of European Nationalities which has special participatory status at the council of Europe in Strasbourg and consultative status to the United Nations.
7. There is no mention in the " Anglo-Saxon Chronicles " that Cornwall was ever conquered by the English .
8. The Cornish language gained official UK Government recognition in 2002 and funding in 2005.
9. Cornwall, like Wales, was not party to the Act of Union in 1707.
10. Before the 1960's, there was little difference between Cornwall and Wales in constitutional terms.
11. Many treaty's and documents up until the 18th century made reference to there being a distinction between England and Cornubia ( Cornwall ) .
12. The 1969-71 Killbrandon Report into the British constitution states that, " when referring to Cornwall, official sources should cite the Duchy". This was in recognition of it's constitutional position.
13. You now have the right on some official forms to be able to record your Nationality as Cornish. Eg :NHS Registration Forms; if the Police ask you your Nationality, it is acceptable to them to record it as Cornish. On the next UK census you will be able to write Cornish for your identity.
14. Maps of the British Isles produced up until the 17th century showed Cornwall as a distinct entity and on a par with the nation of Wales.
15. Cornwall is an older nation than England and one of the oldest Duchies in Europe.
16. 90% of Cornish place names are of Celtic origin and derived from the Cornish language.
17. The Duchy includes the entire territory known as Cornwall, including the bed and waters of the River Tamar.
18. The Cornish are a Celtic people who once inhabited the entire region covered by present-day Cornwall, Devon and West-Somerset.
19. The Duke of Cornwall is our head of state; Not the UK monarch.
20. The Duke's powers are further confirmed in the Tamar Bridge Act as recently as 1998.
21. Cornwall has two unique Celtic sports, Cornish Hurling and Cornish Wrestling, both chronically ignored and under funded.
22. Many of our festivals and events, like the Obby Oss have their origins in the Celtic Britons and predate the arrival of the English in the British Isles.
Is this anti English? No we have plenty of English friends, but is the English establishment anti Cornish? Perhaps. Why did our schools never teach us about our own history and why does the government seem determined to ignore our calls for a Cornish assembly?
Blaid 21:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
After having looked here and elsewhere on Wikipedia it would seem to me that there is a faction within the Uk geography project to rob the United Kingdom of its legitimacy as a political entity (See discussion at Uk). This seems to take the form of reverting mentions of the Uk to use of the home nation on lots of English/Welsh pages with no good reason, and in the case of Cornwall by POV pushing the England label and Flag on Cornish pages. Yes Blaid makes some good points - I don't agree with all of them, and many can be argued to be misinterpretation of minimal historical documents that are available from the period (BTW, the Queen is actually the head of state for Cornwall as she is the Queen of England, Wales, Scotland and Cornwall, the Duchy being a title given to her eldest like the Prince of Wales, to provide income). Regardless of the legality of it, or the previous history, Cornwall is administered as a county of England. Personally, the time to kick up a stink about this would be in 1888 when the local governement act meant that what was previously treated as a separate component of the Uk, was given county status (illegally or not, there is now 120 years of precedent, which counts for a lot in Uk law). These are the facts and should be reflected in the entry (the place for discussion of the constitutional status of Cornwall being Constitutional status of Cornwall). However, to pretend that Cornwall isn't different, doesn't have a separate identity within the Uk, language, flag, culture etc is wrong and POV pushing in the extreme. This obsession with consistency between county articles is ridiculous - Yes it is good that they all have a simmilar layout and style, with simmilar sectioning, but the Uk is not, like some other countries, a homogenous entity, and these regional differences should be respected and commented upon in the articles, not steamrollered out because they don't conform to the article template. A lot of English counties have a motto, but I don't see people questioning the legigimacy these as they do on the Cornwall page - this sort of petty undermining of Cornish identity should have no place on Wikipedia! I've said my piece Grrrr sometimes these people get me so cross! :) Mammal4 08:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist replying to Blaid:
So, Blaid, back to my point. You have a lot of good arguments supporting the claim that Cornwall ought to have self government (on the basis that it's distinct), however, you don't have much to support the allegation that it is legally entitled to it. You need a court ruling to challenge the government's claims. They administer the place, anything else is a POV without a court ruling (or the government acknowledging something or a new Act of Parliament granting autonomy) -- Telex 19:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Telex, Cornwall is one of 6 Celtic nations - Bretagne, Cornwall, Ireland, Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales who all display their flag at the top of the Wikipedia page. Are you saying that Cornwall is not recognised as a Celtic nation ? Your obsession with removing the Cornish flag from the top of the Cornwall article and the way the "county" infobox is presented is ridiculous. This petty undermining of Cornish identity should have no place on Wikipedia ! Blaid 27 May 2006
As Mammal4 mentions there appears to be a clear case of POV pushing of the England label and flag on most Cornish pages. The fact is Cornwall is administered as a county of England. There is also as mentioned an obsession by a few on here for consistency between county articles and in particular "county" info boxes. Some genuine Cornish contributions are termed as "vandalism" and are reverted immediately whilst other types of POV pushing remain untouched. Should not the Wikipedia "Cornwall page administrator" have a more neutral point of view ?
"Regional differences should be respected and commented upon in the articles, not steamrollered out because they don't conform to the article template. A lot of English counties have a motto, but I don't see people questioning the legitimacy of these as they do on the Cornwall page - this sort of petty undermining of Cornish identity should have no place on Wikipedia !"
1. With regards to the flag issue, please take a look at the pages for the US states - each one has the state flag at the top of the infobox. The Council of Europe in Strasbourg is considering the Cornish case this year under the " Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities" and states that Cornish identity should be recognised and respected, not undermined or disregarded. The information I gave to Telex earlier provides evidence that Cornwall's identity is slightly different to other English "counties" -
2. With regards to the Cornish external link deletions below by Joshurtree - these appear to have been selected at random but the reason given is that "WP is not a Wikipedia:External_links Web directory". Of course he is correct with this explanation, but a casual look at other Wikipedia pages shows long lists of external links - for example take a look at the pages for Bath, Nottingham, Leeds, Bradford, Devon or even New York ! Perhaps he should delete some of these ?
Being that Cornwall is a Duchy, surely the flag that its people chose to use on its national day should be placed at the top of the page. The following pages are allowed a flag at the top and none of them are classed as Countries.
Erm - Ok - Luxembourg, Monaco and Andorra are independent countries like any other and obviously have flags. Jersey and Guernsey are independent. Wales and NI (which doesn't even have a flag) are nations of the UK officially recognised as such. How does that relate to Cornwall?
Having said all that, Cornish people, whether they live in a county or a duchy fly the St Piran's Cross all the time and are very proud of it as an identifier of their people and their homeland - it seems only appropriate that it appears at the top of the page - just as anyother area or people that has a popularly-used flag. Cornwall's status is really not relevant. Esquimo 10:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Will the flags be deleted from any of the above? (I think not) Talskiddy 23:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Telex this is simple not true. the
constitutional status of Cornwall as a duchy was proved in law in the 19th century, see the Cornish foreshore case.
Bretagne 44 16:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC
I'm really quite disappointed with the discussion on this page - its unbalanced and doesn't actually go anywhere. When I first heard about Wikipedia, I thought that it sounded like a great idea - the idea of articles being written through consensus and discussion by a sucession of writers, each with their own slant, but leading to an "averaged" article that cover all sides is a great concept, and I'm surely not the only person who contributes here that thinks so. That there is no hierachy and that no editor is deemed "better" than anyone else also appealed to me. The policies laid down by Wikipedia are also a useful set of guidlines with which to ensure civil and constructive contributions. Additionally, The discussion page where ideas can be hammered out before adding them to the main article is a really useful concept.
The reality of my experience with editing, especially on Cornwall geography pages has been somewhat different. I don't direct this to any one individual editor, it is more a general feeling about what I think is lacking on Cornwall related discussion, not just on this page. I apologise if I inadvertently offend anybody, that is not my intention here, I just want to get some of this stuff out in the open, hopefully improve how the discussion process works here and gently remind people of the Rules and Etiquette that we are supposed to contribute under.
Bah whats the use - I've had enough of this - I'm sure nobody will take any notice of this post anyway and just carry on as before, but at least I feel better for having ranted it off of my chest! Mammal4 13:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC) á
As i have said before this and other articles are targetted by English/British nationalists plus others. Bretagne 44 16:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As to the debate on the Cornwall page county V country. Why not go for segregation, leave the wikipedia Cornwall county of England page and create the Celtic nation of Cornwall page. You could take the constitutional status of Cornwall [ [6]] page as a starter and turn it into the Celtic nation of Cornwall page. There is already a Celtic Nations page so you would be just building on that.
The Cornwall EC and Cornwall CN page would then link to each other and other Cornish pages. This would achieve consensus provide an accurate description of Cornwall from the tow perspectives and solve this tiresome feud. Bretagne 44 16:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Please feel free to update the Cornwall portal, or to change it in any way - new information etc. I'm finding myself without much time to do it. -- Joowwww 16:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
There was a request for references to support the international recognition of the Cornish flag in the main article. I'm pretty sure that the flag is recognised outside Cornwall/UK but its not easy to find references to support this. I googled "Flags of the World" and looked at the first couple of hits (I didn't have time to go deeper). Both were American hosted sites I think. Both had the Cornish flag on their site, so I added them as refs to the article. Some of the lower hits didn't have the flag, but then only had flags of sovereign nations anyway (CIA factbook etc). Does that answer the query? I'm happy to discuss this. Mammal4 17:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Steinsky - please can you provide more descriptive edit summaries when you are reverting edits that you disagree with. As I'm sure you know this is generally considered to be good Wikipedia practice. I'm sure many regulars on this page will know why you've reverted it but newer editors will not. I realise it must be irritating to have to keep repeating yourself. It generally helps to reduce antagonism if you at least explain what you are doing.
Tashtastic - Whilst I sympathise with what you are saying, it doesn't matter whether Cornwall was formally annexed or not, it is administered now as a county of England (legally or ilegally it makes no difference). Cornwall County Council is not a front for the Cornish government. This debate has being going back and forth for at least 3 years - it might help if you were to look in the achives at the top of this page to see what has been discussed previously before making any changes. It has been suggested that an Historic Kingdom of Cornwall page be set up to distinguish some of these issues from the Cornwall main page, which is a description of the current English administered (legally or ilegally) region. This would build on the infomration at Duchy of Cornwall and constitutional status of Cornwall. Something simmilar has been done with Brittany to distinguish it from the French administered region of Bretagne. This is a more effective way of getting your point across that reverting this page over and over again.
I hope this is useful, take care Mammal4 13:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
"Cornwall +(capital+city)" pulls up many more relevant hits on google (>100,000) than either "Cornwall +(administrative+headquarters)" or "Cornwall +(administrative+HQ)" (<1000). This isn't unique to Cornwall, as I've tried it with other counties. Does anybody know why the geography pages have been set up in this way? Mammal4 14:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Should there be a Cornwall related stub ? ok, we have a {{ Cornwall-geo-stub}} for locations within Cornwall but what about Cornwall non-geo stubs, such as " List of Celts", for articles which relate to Cornwall or Cornish people ? Please leave a comment here..
Proposal for a Cornwall-related article Stub
Pediac 17:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC) {{ Scotland-stub}} {{ Ireland-stub}} {{ Wales-stub}} {{ France-stub}}
Shouldn't the map be revised so that Cornwall is not dark green? Anyone else agree ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:England#The_Duchy_of_Cornwall_is_not_really_in_England http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:England/Cornwall
Blaid 21:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason why we have two pages that talk about the duchy of Cornwall here and here? Although the name suggests that they cover different faces of the Duchy of Cornwall (as a property holding of Prince Charles, and as a once semi autonomous block of the UK) in reality they cover mostly the same information - wouldn't it be better for readers unfamiliar with this information to merge the two articles? At the moment it just looks like a potential POV fork waiting to happen Mammal4 15:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I see this is NOT in fact being currently discussed at Talk:Cornish emigration., it has hardly been discussed at all and it appears that a consensus of three people have decided to change the name to Cornish emigration, start deleting links and redirecting pages. The committee of three has decided that the Cornish diaspora of some 6-10 million people does not exist. May I refer you to Professor Philip Payton's books "Cornwall" and "The Cornish Overseas". The Cornish diaspora refers to Cornish emigrants and their descendants in countries such as the United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Mexico. The diaspora was caused by a number of factors, but due mainly to economic reasons and the lack of jobs in the 18th and 19th centuries when many Cornish people or “Cousin Jacks” as they were known migrated to various parts of the world in search of a better life. Should this be deleted also ?
This is being currently being discussed at Talk:Cornish emigration unless I imagined all those posts. Please keep the discussion on that page and not here. Nothing has been deleted, just the name of the page changed. This was proposed back at the end of June, and nobody bothered to comment until the after the page was renamed. As I have already said, I am happy to reopen the discussion and change it back if that is what the consensus is. This is a discussion over the terminology used, nobody is denying that this movement of people happened. Mammal4 18:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the movement of text In the 20th century there has been an attempt to revive the Cornish language and as one of the six Celtic nations there has been some debate over the constitutional status of Cornwall (Some Cornish people refer to Cornwall as a Duchy and consider it separate from England). back to the first paragraph. This was put in as a compromise a year or so back so that people can link to the constitutional status of Cornwall page if they want to read more on the topic, but don't have to wade through a load of stuff about Cornish independence if they don't want to. If you look in the archives at the top of the page there was quite a lot of discussion about it at the time and it was deemed necessary to prevent further loading of the opening paragraph with Cornish nationalist sentiment, whilst maintaining a balance Mammal4 08:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't disagree with having the sentence there. However more people reading this article are going to want to know about its towns, county seat, population etc. than some rather doubtful stuff about its constitutional status. Let's put the things people are most likely to want to know at the top, and the rest after it. DJ Clayworth 13:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that you can say what other people will and will not want to read about - have you done a poll? As to the doubtful constitutional status comment, the actual sentance reads "there has been some debate over the constitutional status of Cornwall" Are you doubting that there has been debate or do you have doubts about the constitutional status? The sentance is worded very neutrally is doesn't make any claim as to the constitutional status itself, only that it is a topic which crops in Cornish politics that you wouldn't have in, say, Derbyshire or Hampshire. This is true. As tothe constitutional status itself, well that is a complicated topic, and you are quite right, that sort of thing shouldn't be in the header. The point is that this leader paragraph is supposed to summarise the whole article and give a flavour of what is to come - The meat of it is supposed to come in the later sections. All of the things that say people want to read about (towns, county seat, population etc) are actually either at the start of the opening paragraph or in the infobox or in both; i don't think anyone is going to have trouble finding them. Take care Mammal4 13:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd agree with Mammal4 about this - the constitutional debate in Cornwall does exist, and is likely to be of interest to anyone who wants to find out about Cornwall, having a mention of it near the beginning of the article, with a link to the relevant article seems a sensible option. Surely one of the points of an encyclopedia is that it contains 'things you didn't know before reading it'? DuncanHill 14:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
As already stated, a large number of Cornish people do not identify as English or see themselves as from Cornwall, 'England' for reasons relating to the ongoing debate about the past, present and future constitutional status of Cornwall, together with many people's sense of a distinct Cornish cultural identity - see Constitutional status of Cornwall and Revert warring over England/English vs United Kingdom/British. Since 2001 the Cornish have had their own unique ethnic UK Census code '06' similar to the Irish, Scots, Welsh and English, 2001 Ethnic Codes,and on many official forms it is now possible to register as Cornish as opposed to English. 217.134.75.62 09:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph which was added today. IMHO, it is mostly unsubstantiated nonsense.
-- Portnadler 14:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
This is a pretty accurate description of the geology of the region and the "sunken/flooded land" legend is common to the European celtic cultures - academics do make the link between the facts and the stories, as they do elsewhere in the world - I would argue for including the text in the article - it is based on fact, represents the opinions of at least a large part of academia and is interesting and adds to the reader's appreciation of the Cornish culture and landscape. Esquimo 10:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Twice edits about the revival of the Cornish language have been reverted. The last was anon by
172.206.31.187
talk.
Which of the below would seem more correct?
If there was an attempt: is it fair to say it failed?, succeeded? or that the revival is an ongoing project?
I also have a problem with the use of "In the 20th century, there has been an attempt"
I am sure that the revival started earlier?
any thoughts on this? Talskiddy 15:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted an anonymous edit which changed the intro to "The Cornish language gradually died out as a spoken language during the 19th century, however a slowly increasing minority of the population continue to speak a form of cornish similar to that which was spoken before." Apart from the fact that it's ungrammatical, is there any evidence for the claim that the number of Cornish speakers continues to increase slowly? -- Portnadler 12:52, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I happy with the reference, and it gladdens my Cornish heart to see how many people can effectively speak the language. However, I was still a bit unhappy with the form of words you put in the intro, so I've had another bash at rewriting it. -- Portnadler 17:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I have rewritten the Physical Geography section. I felt that it had become a bit of a mess with all the recent edits. Some were unencyclopedic hyperbole and there was one anonymous editor who kept referring to features in Cornwall that were (allegedly) analogous to those in Wales, Brittany and Ireland. I suspect this was the work of someone with a nationalist political agenda, disguised as a geographer/geologist.
I have also made the section briefer, in the hope that we will eventually develop a whole new article on the Geology of Cornwall. I have therefore included a main article template to encourage us to do this.
Portnadler 17:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
We are asked to populate the List of Villages. Most of the placenames in the List of places are redlinks. Can the two lists be drawn tgether, please? Would it be an inducement to add stubs or full articles on all the places to have them listed by District Council area? Vernon White 23:33, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with the location map on the Truro page, part of the map is hidden, can anyone fix it? Many thanks...-- 81.156.77.41 22:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone add to the list at " List of twin towns in the United Kingdom", arranged by County.
List is currently:
--Vernon White 21:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I have proposed the creation of a Cornwall stub at Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2006/October for Cornwall related stub-class articles which do not fit the Cornwall geo-stub. DuncanHill 10:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone else object to the new Cornwall town/village info boxes with the English flag which have appeared recently ? (see Redruth, Camborne etc. Personally I think I prefer the Penwith style - see Hayle / Penzance. After all Redruth and Camborne and other towns are also Cornish parishes, or I suppose we could add a Cornish flag ! Gulval 22:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Whilst its interesting to read different opinions over what constitutes nationality, and how different people in Cornwall view themselves, might I suggest that you two continue this discussion on your relative talk pages (and leave a link here to it if you feel the need)as this discussion a) seems to have degenerated in a series of circular arguments restatement of respective original positions and oblique sniping comments and b) is clogging up this discussion page which is already difficult to navigate. With that in mind I will probably archive most of this stuff this week to make room for fresh comment. Take care
Mammal4
13:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone damaged the heading "History" and added to:
"The site of ancient Belerion, Cornwall, was the principal source of tin for the civilisations of the ancient Mediterranean and evidence has been found of trade with cultures as far off as Phoenicia, located in present day Lebanon. At one time the Cornish were one of the world's foremost experts at mining, "
with:
"the history of Polgooth as a main trade centre for Tin is in evidence with tin ingnots stamped with the phoenician mark found in the "White river" at Pentewan proving increasing evidence for cornwalls importance in mining history."
I have restored the heading "History and added the "Fact" template before the statement about "tin ignots". I would like to know what the source of the Phoenician ingot story is, (if there is one). There is a WP stub article on Polgooth to which I have added a reliable looking external link about its mining history.
---Vernon White 21:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
---Vernon White 23:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
---
William Camden does not appear to believe the "Phoenicians in Cornwall" legend, if this is a correct translation:
Neither let any man surmize that in the daies of Constantius the Poeni [Phoenicians] had their abode here grounding upon these words of Eumenius the Rhetorician, Except perhaps no greater ruine had fallen upon Britaine, and borne it downe, than if it had been drenched thorout, and overwhelmed with the over-flowing of the Ocean: which being delivered from the most deepe gulfe [Poenorum], began to appeare and shew it selfe at the view and sight of the Romanes. For in the old Copie belonging sometime to Humfrey Duke of Glocester, and afterwards to the right honourable Baron Burghly, Lord high Treasurere of England, we read poenarum gurgitibus, that is, The gulfes of punishments, and not Poenorum gurgitibus. For he seemeth to speake of the calamites and miseries wherewith Britaine was afflicted under Carausius." Source: William Camden,Britannia (1607) with an English translation by Philemon Holland
=== Vernon White (talk) 20:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following paragraph because it struck me as largely inaccurate:
Although Cornwall is not thought of as a "Viking Country", during the latter stages of the Anglo-Celtic wars, when Wessex was threatening "West Wales" (then Cornwall and Devon), the Britons allied with Danish Vikings in order to hold Wessex from expanding westward. In 722 King Ine of Wessex Saxon army was comprehensibly destroyed by an alliance of Cornish Celts and Vikings somewhere around the Camel estuary. This battle, as well as the Vikings continually attacking, pillaging and burning Wessex, enabled Cornwall to stay reasonably separate from Wessex. To this day, there is a strong feeling of pride and comradeship from the Cornish towards the Vikings citation needed, who have always been seen in Cornwall as allies - just as in the other Celtic nations such as Wales, Scotland and Ireland. It is highly likely the likes of Bude, Falmouth and Mount's Bay had small Viking settlements (Bude is just outside Lundy Island, which has a Norse name and settlement).
These are my reasons:
Since the first Viking raids on Britain took place from around 787, it is inconceivable that Vikings were in alliance with the Cornish against King Ine in 722 (I don't know where this information comes from, but even if the Cornish were assisted by Norse traders, there's no reason to call them Vikings).
The victory against Ine may have been crucial in keeping Cornwall proper out of Wessex, but that war overall was a defeat because West Wales lost over half its territory to Wessex.
I'm Cornish, and this is the first I've heard of a strong feeling of pride and comradeship towards the Vikings, though I can't speak for the people of Falmouth et al.
The following is one of the worst pieces of geographical description I've ever come across: Bude is just outside Lundy Island.
(It's possible that the alliance with the Vikings referred to is the attempt to throw the Saxons out of Cornwall in 838, which is a different matter. Since it was unsuccessful and the Vikings fled after being defeated, the incident doesn't merit pride and comradeship, anyway, I'd say.)
qp10qp 13:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
1. " Viking" was a term invented in the 18th C, according to the WP article. Its definition is not clear. The correct WP link is Ine of Wessex not Ine.
2. According to Philip Payton [1], the Allies of the West Welsh in AD 722 were "Danish".
3. According to Philip Payton, the Camel Estuary can only "probably" be identified with the Battlesite - Hehil[2]
4. At the Battle of Hingston Down in AD 838, the allies were "Vikings", according to Payton [3].
5. The subsequent "ethnic cleansing" of what is now Devonshire and the establishment of terms for a workable peace by Athelstan of England, with a boundary at the River Tamar, should be included in this article [4].
6. In my experience, Falmouth folk are very friendly and welcoming to strangers. The WP Falmouth page makes no such claim as "the Viking Paragraph" of long-standing Viking links, although the WP Viking page does. It would be good to know where this idea came from, as Falmouth (formerly Peny-cwm-cuic) was very tiny until Henry VIII's Pendennis Castle was built.
7. The place-name element "-y", may be Old Norse for an Island. However the WP article on Lundy does not mention Viking settlement.
___ Hope this helps +++ Vernon White (talk) 22:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
OK; how about:
In
705 the Saxons under
Ine of Wessex advanced on
Dumnonia, ruled at the time by
Geraint, and by
710 had overrun its eastern territories, including Taunton and Exeter.
[1] They were eventually defeated in
722 by a Cornish army at a place recorded as Hehil.
[2] A century passed before the West Saxons again turned their attention to Cornwall, this time under
King Egbert, who in
814 laid waste to the land and exacted homage from the local leaders.
[3] From this time, the Cornish lost their independence, though unsuccessful revolts followed in
825 and, finally, in
838, when the Cornish and their Viking allies were defeated by Egbert at
Hingston Down, near Gunnislake.
[4]
Vernon, the Hehil footnote needs to be filled with a short quote from Payton, instead of my gloss of what you said above. Please alter or change my words as suitable and add or subtract references, if necessary. It would be nice to have something precise about the battle of Galford/Gafulford (Camelford?) in 825; Halliday doesn't say much about that, but perhaps Payton or your other chap does.
May I ask about the revised reference to 721 and Danes and king Ine? What is the primary source for Danes and Ine? The Annales Cambriae (AC) says simply that in 721 the Britons were victors in battle at Hehil among the Cornish (“apud Cornuenses”). It mentions two other battles in the same sentence and year in which the Britons (“Brittones”) were the victors, Garthmailauc and Cat Pencon, which are not relevant here. The wording apud Cornuenses and the mention of other battles and the victors being Britons leaves open whether the Britons fighting at Hehil were only the Cornish, more generally Dumnonians, or included Britons from what we now call Wales. In the AC there is no reference to Vikings in 721, no reference to king Ine, no reference to whom the Cornish fought though that can be reasonably deduced. Hehil or Heil, as the texts say in Latin, has not been indisputably identified but the present Camel estuary is more likely than the present Hayle estuary which is very much father westward and probably beyond the West Saxon reach at this date. There is no reference to any of the 721 events in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (ASC).
Is there another early source than AC and ASC for the 721 data?
The ASC is explicit that the Vikings did not appear until much later in the eighth century. An appearance in 721 in battle would probably have been noted. Crococolana 16:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Another query if I may. Your draft paragraph cites Halliday as saying that in 815 king Egbert "exacted homage from the local leaders." Where does Halliday get this from? The ASC says only that 'West Wales' was devasted from east to west, nothing about homage.
I wonder whether it would be better to put the 838 battle site as Hengesdune, as in the ASC, and gloss that as most probably Hingston Down.
I think the ASC and AC should be referred to as early sources in the list of references. Crococolana 23:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
HINGSTON DOWN. Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio. I was trying to compress two ideas into an overloaded single comment. (First) No, I don't know of anyone who has suggested that the battle did not happen at modern Hingston Down but I am cautious.Is there any evidence, apart from linguistic similarity which can be misleading, that leads us directly from Hengesdune (one of the ASC words)to modern Hingston Down? Perhaps I am being over-cautious and I am happy to yield to your view.
(Second)There are two places called Hingston Down today: (a) near Moretonhampstead, Devon and (b) near Callington, Cornwall. Both are around the Devon/Cornwall border. The ASC does not locate the battlesite and I think it is impossible to say which it is without material findings or possibly a history of the naming of the places.
I think my compression misleads and we should explicitly point out there are two possibilities. I have added to the excellent paragraph of qp10qp. I have left my probably in but do remove it if you think it unnecessary. Crococolana 14:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Why was this town removed? It is not important if it is major or not, just that it is a place of interest.-- User:Filll 16:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Mammal4 has created WikiProject Cornwall to improve and extend the coverage of Cornwall-related articles. Please visit, and sign up if you want to contribute. Thanks! DuncanHill 13:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
the article says, in its first sentence, that Cornwall is
I know what this is getting at, but its clumsily put. It seems to be a combination of two things that would make sense
and
however, there's nothing west of the Tamar that isn't Cornwall (more or less), so saying it is "on the peninsula west of " is a bit odd, and implies other non-Cornwall things share the peninsula. I'd also be hesistant to call Cornwall a peninsula in its own right, given the geography involved. How does
sounds a replacement? Morwen - Talk 14:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I have again removed what I consider to be superfluous information at the foot of the page, namely, the boxes which contain a list of the counties and districts of England. This information is irrelevant dross and can be reached (if needed) by appropriate links elsewhere in the page -- TGG 16:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Celtic nations and their languages | |||
![]() |
This has nothing to do with superfluous information or "green computing". If it was then the same argument should be applied to the cornish flag that features prominatly in the infobox and twice in the navigation box at the bottom (just in case you didn't get it first time). The fact is you have a problem with the legal status of Cornwall you should be either arguing for the removal of all flags otherwise its just a POV pushing campain. josh ( talk) 18:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The paragraph in the History section on saints is troubling and it carries no references. I do not think comments like "St Ia...sailed from Ireland to what is now St Ives on an ivy leaf" and "St Piran arrived from Ireland at what is now Perranporth with a millstone around his neck" should appear in an encyclopedia without being marked as nonsense. I think we should make some attempt to try to distinguish pious romance from hard fact or likelihood. I have replaced the paragraph with a minimal one, more suited for a general history introduction section. Perhaps any referenced additions can be made in the specialist history of Cornwall section. Crococolana 13:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
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(
help)However, what I am saying is that an encyclopedia should distinguish between (a) statements which are nonsense such as the three aforesaid and (b) statements that are science-based evidential facts or theories such as king Richard died at the battle of Bosworth and the world is spheroid-shaped. An encyclopedia can usefully distinguish them from interpretations and judgements too.
(Incidentally, the statement "St Ia sailed from Ireland on an ivy leaf" has three problematic elements: "St Ia," "from Ireland," and "sailed on an ivy leaf.") Crococolana 10:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I have added to the saints entry. I now wonder whether a specialist history section is needed; I wonder whether an introductory history and more detailed one is too confusing. Crococolana 20:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Both this talk page and the article appear to be getting a bit long. I suggest that some of the material in the article be farmed out to other linked articles. I also suggest some of this talk page be archived.-- Filll 23:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)