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Refactored: Various commentators have made comments about the status of Cornwall. In summary, some see Cornwall as an integral part of England / United Kingdom; others don't. sjc
Peninsula(r) - sorry about that, English is rapidly becoming my third language. sjc
Are we sure about the ancient tin? I've seen claims that the ancient tin mines were actually in the Scilly Islands. Vicki Rosenzweig
Vicki, there is no real proof one way or the other, but certainly it would have been easier for the traders to have found Cornwall than the Scillies, given the uncertainties of navigation in those times... sjc
GrahamN, Cornwall is NOT in England; we have brokered (after much debate) a coherent form of words which is acceptable to most of the players in this debate. This IS not negotiable and I do not propose to waste time going over this ground again. Changes to this page will be reverted with extreme prejudice. user:sjc
Hi, sjc.
I'm sorry if I trod on your toes.
You are absolutely right. Cornwall is not in England. And I never said it was. To say that Cornwall is "a county of England" is not to say that Cornwall is in England. Corsica is a département of France, but it is clearly not in France.
As it happens, I am quarter Cornish (my maternal grandfather came from the Lizard), and I have a good deal of sympathy with ambitions of the Cornish to gain independence from England. But in the interests of producing a good encyclopaedia article, I think we should amend the sentence Cornwall … is a duchy and (administratively speaking) the southernmost county of Great Britain, for two reasons.
Firstly, the Channel Islands are further south than Cornwall, and are arguably part of Great Britain.
Secondly, the phrase "County of Great Britain" is meaningless. The United Kingdom is a union of a variety of countries, principalities, bailiwicks, provinces and such, some within Great Britain and some outside it. Some of these territories are divided into counties. England has counties, Scotland has counties, Wales has counties, Northern Ireland has counties, but "Great Britain" does not have counties.
Please go to the site www.cornwall.gov.uk It is the web-site of Cornwall County Council. I believe this to be a real institution. It is not merely a front for a Cornish Government, designed to fool the English. You may wish that Cornwall was not administered as "a county of England" (and I would agree with you), but saying that it is not so doesn't change the fact that it is so. In fact it is likely to be counter-productive. Pretending that an injustice doesn't exist is not a particulary sharp way to proceed if you want to see the injustice remedied.
May I respectfully suggest the following revision:
Cornwall … is a region at the extreme South-West of Great Britain. Although technically a duchy and not part of England, currently it is administered exactly as if it were an English county.
GrahamN 22:54 Sep 6, 2002 (UCT)
GrahamN:
That would do if only it were true. However, it isn't administered exactly as if it were an English county. Close, but "English" Heritage no longer uses the word "English", for example; moreover there are certain pieces of legislature which are peculiar to Cornwall; Stannary law is still (technically if not de facto, since it has never been repealed) applicable within Cornwall. Try this and see what you think:
Excuse my cynicism but I get the distinct impression (again) that we are going to go through this whole lifecycle in about 6 months with someone else. We are now back to an earlier form of words of about 8 months ago. Here is the argument (all over again):
Cornwall as a contemporary geographical entity is entirely different from Cornwall (historico-geographical entity). Cornwall once stretched as far east as Bristol, with Cornish language prevalent in parts of Devon immediately anterior to the Prayer Book Rebellion. Cornwall.
tannaries, is called the Lord Warden of the Stannaries. The Lord Warden of the Stannaries used to exercise judicial and military functions in Cornwall, and is still the official who, upon the commission of the Monarch or Duke of Cornwall for the time being, has the function of calling a Parliament or Convocation of Tinners in Cornwall. The last Stannary Parliament convened by a Lord Warden of the Stannaries sat in 1753. The first Lord Warden of the Stannaries of Cornwall (and Devon) was William de Wrotham who was appointed during the reign of King Richard I of England on 20th November 1197. During the year 1198 juries of miners were convened at Launceston in Cornwall before William de Wrotham to declare the Law and Practice of the tin mines, and the Royal Tax on the tin which was mined was known as the "coinage of tin". The Writ appointing William de Wrotham confirmed the "just and ancient customs and liberties" of miners, smelters and merchants of tin. It was from those sessions of jurymen sitting under a Royal official that the Parliaments or Convocations of Tinners of Cornwall (and Devon) originated.
This is just a sliver of the argument. It gets far more tendentious yet.
Interestingly Part VI, The Tamar Bridge Act 1998, Section 41, Crown Rights, contains the following provision for the Duke of Cornwall:
Something of an own goal from the mandarins in Whitehall. What is being inadvertently admitted here is that there are legal precedents for a discrete legislature pertaining in Cornwall. This is pre-emptive face saving legislation in the event of a later assembly in Cornwall questioning the validity of the Act.
The Cornish Stannary Royal Charter of Pardon of 1508 is also revealing. This Charter is still in force and effective according to the latest Butterworths reissue of Halsbury's Statutes, Vol.10, Constitutional Law, 1995, Royal Mines Act 1693, 5 Will & Mar, c.6, [HMSO Ed. 1978, ISBN011801661X], which made this guarantee just five years after the more generally known, Bill of Rights 1688:
Might there be some virtue in treating this in the same sort of way as the debate over the nationality of Copernicus? ie, just briefly mention that the situation is complicated on the main Cornwall page with a link to a page that discusses all these things that sjc's just posted (which are actually quite interesting, I think). I think that all the people involved in this Cornwall debate are much more reasonable than some of those who were in on that one. Bth
The Copernicus nationality thing was a mere footnote to the bloodbath edit-war that at times has characterised this one, Bth. We however managed to hammer out a form of words which was neutral, i.e. which offended no-one whilst satisfying no-one, and restored a veneer of civilised debate to the subject. Every so often someone comes along and rocks the boat, and bang goes a number of other articles more in need of urgent attention. I think that your suggestion, however, has considerable merit and maybe we need a new type of subpage e.g. in this case Cornwall (jurisdictional and nationhood debate).
We also need a mechanism for flagging up where forms of words have been agreed so that this kind of foot-in-it editing is immediately apparent: perhaps an agreed typeface or font colour which shows where a compromise has been achieved. user:sjc
SJC, how can you justify saying Cornwall is not in England:
Cambridge Encyclopedia:
County in SW England, divided in to eight districts and the Isles of Scilly...
Encylopedia.com:
County (1991 pop. 469,300), SW England. The county seat is Bodmin, although most administration eminates from Truro.
Encarta:
CORNWALL (ENGLAND), in full Cornwall and Isles of Scilly, county in southwestern England.
Brittanica:
Cornwall, administrative and historic county, southwestern England, occupying a peninsula jutting into the Atlantic Ocean. Truro is the seat of the county's administration
According to Brittanica, the duchy is a separate entity:
Cornwall, duchy of:
a private estate consisting of lands, honours, franchises, rights, profits, etc., held by the eldest living son of the British sovereign. The holdings and perquisites are found not only in the modern county of Cornwall but also in Devon, Somerset, and elsewhere in the southwest of England.
Heritage doesn't use the name because nationalist groups kept ripping up their signs, not because they believe it not to be a county. Jeremy
Or are you just another internet troll, Jeremy? user:sjc
Ok, apology accepted and not really necessary. I just get rather tired of going over the same old ground time and time again. I accept that there are big question marks which is why we brokered a half-way house which neither says that it is or isn't in England.
Your assertion that "A royal charter from 1508 is entirely irrelevant today" is entirely incorrect in law. If it is a law it is a law. It either has to be revised or it is extant. If the law is not absolute, anarchy lies around the corner.
I further think that a signed petition of more than 50,000 Cornish people asking for an independent assembly for Cornwall is kind of indicative of the way the consensus of opinion in my corner of the world is going (it would be much bigger now, btw). user:sjc
I can't remember exactly but I think there is an ancient law allowing one to kill a welshman in norfolk after sunrise (or something!) I don't think anyone would get away with it today. Again, a signed petition of less than 10 percent is not "most people Cornish people". This goes towards making a case for the independance of Cornwall, but it doesn't change its current status. Fundamentally Cornwall has a county council and MPs to the English parliament. Until that changes it will still be a county. Jeremy.
I think maybe if the opening paragraphs of the article were to read more smoothly, then random people would be less likely to burst in and disturb the carefully contrived balance.
My reason for the making edit that started off this latest unpleasantness was more aesthetic than anything else. Whether it is technically wrong or not, the phrase "County of the United Kingdom" sounds wrong, because it is such an unfamiliar formulation. "County of Great Britain" is no better.
To deter meddlers, I would like to attempt to re-write the opening three paragraphs without changing any meanings, but making the style as silky smooth as I can. I will wait a few days before attempting this. If anybody has objections I won't do it.
GrahamN 16:19 Sep 7, 2002 (UTC)
OK, that sounds sensible albeit that to accomplish it is technically impossible. I think you are seriously away with the fairies, GrahamN, but you are more than welcome to attempt to convince me. Moreover, the facts of the matter are complex and there will always be a Little Englander with an axe to grind. This will now run and run, you mark my words. user:sjc
Oops! Well, that only goes to show that I'm completely impartial on this issue -- I can't even get its location right! (relax... I do know it's not in Kent! It was a typo of sorts...). -- Tarquin
I find your points most revealing Mintguy. England has had no real existence in terms of realpolitik since the Act of Union, and is administratively a component part of the United Kingdom, ergo there should be no references to England as a distinct nation state. Nevertheless the English (whom, I might add have been around as a nation for considerably less time than the Cornish) are insistent upon their national status. I think that if you are going to wipe out the Cornish with a flick of a pen (nice try) then exactly the same thing should be done to the "parcel of rogues in a nation". They have no distinct language, no common cultural core, and in fact are a a miserable bunch of misfits no different from the Scots, Welsh, Cornish and Northern Irish.
If your arguments are taken to their logical conclusion English counties will simply have to be redefined as being counties in the United Kingdom. user:sjc
The "Cornish People" - i.e. those of Celtic Cornish extraction - most certainly do constitute a national minority, and an ethnic minority under the definition set down by Lord Fraser in the case of Mandla v. Dowell Lee 1988 which is used to define "ethnic group" for the purposes of the Race Relations Act. The Cornish are a nation with its own law (Stannary Law), based on pre-conquest Cornish common law, which has not been, and cannot be repealed or amended by the UK Government as it proceeds from a Royal Charter (The Charter of Pardon 1508). The English government would dearly love to repeal it but are plainly unable to.
The Cornish are a formerly independent nation, finally conquered by Athelstan, King of West Saxons, in 936 AD. He misappropriated all Cornish lands east of the River Tamar and established the boundary of Cornwall for all time as the East Bank of the Tamar. Until the 14th Century, all legal references were made to "Anglia et Cornubia" - England and Cornwall, as Cornwall was not incorporated in England, despite having been conquered. In 1351, the Black Prince, first Duke of Cornwall, initiated a survey of his property in "Cornwall and England". The establishment of the Duchy of Cornwall contains the words "we do by this present charter, for us and our heirs, annex and unite to the aforesaid Duchy, to remain the same for ever, so that from the same Duchy they may at no time be in any wise separated". There has been no constitutional change to the Duchy which can be construed as changing either the national identity of the Cornish people nor Cornwall's distinct segregation from England. The UK Government are obliged need to address the development of the Cornish language and culture. I am pleased to report they are beginning to do so.
To quote the Grand Bard, addressing a recent Gorsedd, "Cornwall is not England, and never will be, despite what Government Departments may say". Actually, they are now saying that it actually is a unique situation: (again) Part VI, The Tamar Bridge Act 1998, Section 41, Crown Rights, contains the following provision for the Duke of Cornwall:
- Would it not be better to be honest about the difference of opinion in the article, rather than try to maintain a form of words that suits everyone? Surely it's clearer to begin 'Cornwall is a county in the south-west of England, according to most works of reference, and it is now largely administered as such. But its constitutional position is historically very complicated and many of those who have studied it are clear that... Cornwall (jurisdictional and nationhood debate).' etc. That means we can express both points of view and the subtleties lie only in whether we say 'some' or 'many' hold them. Andy G 21:39 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- Did it (or something like). Much of the material on this talk page deserves to be in an article. Andy G 02:43, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Did that too. See Cornish independence. Wot no edit wars? Andy G 01:10, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
"The patron saint of Cornwall is St. Micheal" or is St Michael meant? -- SGBailey 23:46 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
I just did a Google search on the phrase "Patron Saint of Cornwall". Of the top ten results, eight say St P, two say St M. One says St. P is the "popular replacement for St Michael as patron saint of Cornwall", another says "St. Michael the Archangel was the Patron Saint of Helston" Personally, I'd always thought St Piran was yer man. There is "St. Michael's Mount", of course, but then there is a similar "Mont St Michel" over the channel in Normandy. All very confusing. I have put in some words to say that it is disputed. GrahamN 00:59 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)
"Cornwall was never a shire, it had shires of its own" Explanation, anyone? Andy G 20:31, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have removed St. Piran's flag from the box at the top of the page. It is already included with an explanation lower down the page. Adding it to the top of the page made it look like it was an official symbol of Cornwall, which since it is also claimed by Cornish seperatists is likely to cause offence. How about adding the Cornish Coat of Arms (the 15 besants, fisherman, miner, chough and "one and all")? fabiform | talk 22:00, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Refactored: Various commentators have made comments about the status of Cornwall. In summary, some see Cornwall as an integral part of England / United Kingdom; others don't. sjc
Peninsula(r) - sorry about that, English is rapidly becoming my third language. sjc
Are we sure about the ancient tin? I've seen claims that the ancient tin mines were actually in the Scilly Islands. Vicki Rosenzweig
Vicki, there is no real proof one way or the other, but certainly it would have been easier for the traders to have found Cornwall than the Scillies, given the uncertainties of navigation in those times... sjc
GrahamN, Cornwall is NOT in England; we have brokered (after much debate) a coherent form of words which is acceptable to most of the players in this debate. This IS not negotiable and I do not propose to waste time going over this ground again. Changes to this page will be reverted with extreme prejudice. user:sjc
Hi, sjc.
I'm sorry if I trod on your toes.
You are absolutely right. Cornwall is not in England. And I never said it was. To say that Cornwall is "a county of England" is not to say that Cornwall is in England. Corsica is a département of France, but it is clearly not in France.
As it happens, I am quarter Cornish (my maternal grandfather came from the Lizard), and I have a good deal of sympathy with ambitions of the Cornish to gain independence from England. But in the interests of producing a good encyclopaedia article, I think we should amend the sentence Cornwall … is a duchy and (administratively speaking) the southernmost county of Great Britain, for two reasons.
Firstly, the Channel Islands are further south than Cornwall, and are arguably part of Great Britain.
Secondly, the phrase "County of Great Britain" is meaningless. The United Kingdom is a union of a variety of countries, principalities, bailiwicks, provinces and such, some within Great Britain and some outside it. Some of these territories are divided into counties. England has counties, Scotland has counties, Wales has counties, Northern Ireland has counties, but "Great Britain" does not have counties.
Please go to the site www.cornwall.gov.uk It is the web-site of Cornwall County Council. I believe this to be a real institution. It is not merely a front for a Cornish Government, designed to fool the English. You may wish that Cornwall was not administered as "a county of England" (and I would agree with you), but saying that it is not so doesn't change the fact that it is so. In fact it is likely to be counter-productive. Pretending that an injustice doesn't exist is not a particulary sharp way to proceed if you want to see the injustice remedied.
May I respectfully suggest the following revision:
Cornwall … is a region at the extreme South-West of Great Britain. Although technically a duchy and not part of England, currently it is administered exactly as if it were an English county.
GrahamN 22:54 Sep 6, 2002 (UCT)
GrahamN:
That would do if only it were true. However, it isn't administered exactly as if it were an English county. Close, but "English" Heritage no longer uses the word "English", for example; moreover there are certain pieces of legislature which are peculiar to Cornwall; Stannary law is still (technically if not de facto, since it has never been repealed) applicable within Cornwall. Try this and see what you think:
Excuse my cynicism but I get the distinct impression (again) that we are going to go through this whole lifecycle in about 6 months with someone else. We are now back to an earlier form of words of about 8 months ago. Here is the argument (all over again):
Cornwall as a contemporary geographical entity is entirely different from Cornwall (historico-geographical entity). Cornwall once stretched as far east as Bristol, with Cornish language prevalent in parts of Devon immediately anterior to the Prayer Book Rebellion. Cornwall.
tannaries, is called the Lord Warden of the Stannaries. The Lord Warden of the Stannaries used to exercise judicial and military functions in Cornwall, and is still the official who, upon the commission of the Monarch or Duke of Cornwall for the time being, has the function of calling a Parliament or Convocation of Tinners in Cornwall. The last Stannary Parliament convened by a Lord Warden of the Stannaries sat in 1753. The first Lord Warden of the Stannaries of Cornwall (and Devon) was William de Wrotham who was appointed during the reign of King Richard I of England on 20th November 1197. During the year 1198 juries of miners were convened at Launceston in Cornwall before William de Wrotham to declare the Law and Practice of the tin mines, and the Royal Tax on the tin which was mined was known as the "coinage of tin". The Writ appointing William de Wrotham confirmed the "just and ancient customs and liberties" of miners, smelters and merchants of tin. It was from those sessions of jurymen sitting under a Royal official that the Parliaments or Convocations of Tinners of Cornwall (and Devon) originated.
This is just a sliver of the argument. It gets far more tendentious yet.
Interestingly Part VI, The Tamar Bridge Act 1998, Section 41, Crown Rights, contains the following provision for the Duke of Cornwall:
Something of an own goal from the mandarins in Whitehall. What is being inadvertently admitted here is that there are legal precedents for a discrete legislature pertaining in Cornwall. This is pre-emptive face saving legislation in the event of a later assembly in Cornwall questioning the validity of the Act.
The Cornish Stannary Royal Charter of Pardon of 1508 is also revealing. This Charter is still in force and effective according to the latest Butterworths reissue of Halsbury's Statutes, Vol.10, Constitutional Law, 1995, Royal Mines Act 1693, 5 Will & Mar, c.6, [HMSO Ed. 1978, ISBN011801661X], which made this guarantee just five years after the more generally known, Bill of Rights 1688:
Might there be some virtue in treating this in the same sort of way as the debate over the nationality of Copernicus? ie, just briefly mention that the situation is complicated on the main Cornwall page with a link to a page that discusses all these things that sjc's just posted (which are actually quite interesting, I think). I think that all the people involved in this Cornwall debate are much more reasonable than some of those who were in on that one. Bth
The Copernicus nationality thing was a mere footnote to the bloodbath edit-war that at times has characterised this one, Bth. We however managed to hammer out a form of words which was neutral, i.e. which offended no-one whilst satisfying no-one, and restored a veneer of civilised debate to the subject. Every so often someone comes along and rocks the boat, and bang goes a number of other articles more in need of urgent attention. I think that your suggestion, however, has considerable merit and maybe we need a new type of subpage e.g. in this case Cornwall (jurisdictional and nationhood debate).
We also need a mechanism for flagging up where forms of words have been agreed so that this kind of foot-in-it editing is immediately apparent: perhaps an agreed typeface or font colour which shows where a compromise has been achieved. user:sjc
SJC, how can you justify saying Cornwall is not in England:
Cambridge Encyclopedia:
County in SW England, divided in to eight districts and the Isles of Scilly...
Encylopedia.com:
County (1991 pop. 469,300), SW England. The county seat is Bodmin, although most administration eminates from Truro.
Encarta:
CORNWALL (ENGLAND), in full Cornwall and Isles of Scilly, county in southwestern England.
Brittanica:
Cornwall, administrative and historic county, southwestern England, occupying a peninsula jutting into the Atlantic Ocean. Truro is the seat of the county's administration
According to Brittanica, the duchy is a separate entity:
Cornwall, duchy of:
a private estate consisting of lands, honours, franchises, rights, profits, etc., held by the eldest living son of the British sovereign. The holdings and perquisites are found not only in the modern county of Cornwall but also in Devon, Somerset, and elsewhere in the southwest of England.
Heritage doesn't use the name because nationalist groups kept ripping up their signs, not because they believe it not to be a county. Jeremy
Or are you just another internet troll, Jeremy? user:sjc
Ok, apology accepted and not really necessary. I just get rather tired of going over the same old ground time and time again. I accept that there are big question marks which is why we brokered a half-way house which neither says that it is or isn't in England.
Your assertion that "A royal charter from 1508 is entirely irrelevant today" is entirely incorrect in law. If it is a law it is a law. It either has to be revised or it is extant. If the law is not absolute, anarchy lies around the corner.
I further think that a signed petition of more than 50,000 Cornish people asking for an independent assembly for Cornwall is kind of indicative of the way the consensus of opinion in my corner of the world is going (it would be much bigger now, btw). user:sjc
I can't remember exactly but I think there is an ancient law allowing one to kill a welshman in norfolk after sunrise (or something!) I don't think anyone would get away with it today. Again, a signed petition of less than 10 percent is not "most people Cornish people". This goes towards making a case for the independance of Cornwall, but it doesn't change its current status. Fundamentally Cornwall has a county council and MPs to the English parliament. Until that changes it will still be a county. Jeremy.
I think maybe if the opening paragraphs of the article were to read more smoothly, then random people would be less likely to burst in and disturb the carefully contrived balance.
My reason for the making edit that started off this latest unpleasantness was more aesthetic than anything else. Whether it is technically wrong or not, the phrase "County of the United Kingdom" sounds wrong, because it is such an unfamiliar formulation. "County of Great Britain" is no better.
To deter meddlers, I would like to attempt to re-write the opening three paragraphs without changing any meanings, but making the style as silky smooth as I can. I will wait a few days before attempting this. If anybody has objections I won't do it.
GrahamN 16:19 Sep 7, 2002 (UTC)
OK, that sounds sensible albeit that to accomplish it is technically impossible. I think you are seriously away with the fairies, GrahamN, but you are more than welcome to attempt to convince me. Moreover, the facts of the matter are complex and there will always be a Little Englander with an axe to grind. This will now run and run, you mark my words. user:sjc
Oops! Well, that only goes to show that I'm completely impartial on this issue -- I can't even get its location right! (relax... I do know it's not in Kent! It was a typo of sorts...). -- Tarquin
I find your points most revealing Mintguy. England has had no real existence in terms of realpolitik since the Act of Union, and is administratively a component part of the United Kingdom, ergo there should be no references to England as a distinct nation state. Nevertheless the English (whom, I might add have been around as a nation for considerably less time than the Cornish) are insistent upon their national status. I think that if you are going to wipe out the Cornish with a flick of a pen (nice try) then exactly the same thing should be done to the "parcel of rogues in a nation". They have no distinct language, no common cultural core, and in fact are a a miserable bunch of misfits no different from the Scots, Welsh, Cornish and Northern Irish.
If your arguments are taken to their logical conclusion English counties will simply have to be redefined as being counties in the United Kingdom. user:sjc
The "Cornish People" - i.e. those of Celtic Cornish extraction - most certainly do constitute a national minority, and an ethnic minority under the definition set down by Lord Fraser in the case of Mandla v. Dowell Lee 1988 which is used to define "ethnic group" for the purposes of the Race Relations Act. The Cornish are a nation with its own law (Stannary Law), based on pre-conquest Cornish common law, which has not been, and cannot be repealed or amended by the UK Government as it proceeds from a Royal Charter (The Charter of Pardon 1508). The English government would dearly love to repeal it but are plainly unable to.
The Cornish are a formerly independent nation, finally conquered by Athelstan, King of West Saxons, in 936 AD. He misappropriated all Cornish lands east of the River Tamar and established the boundary of Cornwall for all time as the East Bank of the Tamar. Until the 14th Century, all legal references were made to "Anglia et Cornubia" - England and Cornwall, as Cornwall was not incorporated in England, despite having been conquered. In 1351, the Black Prince, first Duke of Cornwall, initiated a survey of his property in "Cornwall and England". The establishment of the Duchy of Cornwall contains the words "we do by this present charter, for us and our heirs, annex and unite to the aforesaid Duchy, to remain the same for ever, so that from the same Duchy they may at no time be in any wise separated". There has been no constitutional change to the Duchy which can be construed as changing either the national identity of the Cornish people nor Cornwall's distinct segregation from England. The UK Government are obliged need to address the development of the Cornish language and culture. I am pleased to report they are beginning to do so.
To quote the Grand Bard, addressing a recent Gorsedd, "Cornwall is not England, and never will be, despite what Government Departments may say". Actually, they are now saying that it actually is a unique situation: (again) Part VI, The Tamar Bridge Act 1998, Section 41, Crown Rights, contains the following provision for the Duke of Cornwall:
- Would it not be better to be honest about the difference of opinion in the article, rather than try to maintain a form of words that suits everyone? Surely it's clearer to begin 'Cornwall is a county in the south-west of England, according to most works of reference, and it is now largely administered as such. But its constitutional position is historically very complicated and many of those who have studied it are clear that... Cornwall (jurisdictional and nationhood debate).' etc. That means we can express both points of view and the subtleties lie only in whether we say 'some' or 'many' hold them. Andy G 21:39 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- Did it (or something like). Much of the material on this talk page deserves to be in an article. Andy G 02:43, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Did that too. See Cornish independence. Wot no edit wars? Andy G 01:10, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)
"The patron saint of Cornwall is St. Micheal" or is St Michael meant? -- SGBailey 23:46 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
I just did a Google search on the phrase "Patron Saint of Cornwall". Of the top ten results, eight say St P, two say St M. One says St. P is the "popular replacement for St Michael as patron saint of Cornwall", another says "St. Michael the Archangel was the Patron Saint of Helston" Personally, I'd always thought St Piran was yer man. There is "St. Michael's Mount", of course, but then there is a similar "Mont St Michel" over the channel in Normandy. All very confusing. I have put in some words to say that it is disputed. GrahamN 00:59 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)
"Cornwall was never a shire, it had shires of its own" Explanation, anyone? Andy G 20:31, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I have removed St. Piran's flag from the box at the top of the page. It is already included with an explanation lower down the page. Adding it to the top of the page made it look like it was an official symbol of Cornwall, which since it is also claimed by Cornish seperatists is likely to cause offence. How about adding the Cornish Coat of Arms (the 15 besants, fisherman, miner, chough and "one and all")? fabiform | talk 22:00, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)