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Added the following:
An ancient legend, the Brutus Myth, recounted by Geoffrey of Monmouth gives explicit reference to the Cornish people in describing their decent. The legend tell how Albion was colonised by refugees from Troy under King Brutus, how Brutus reamed his new Kingdom, Britain, and how the island was subsequently divided up between his three sons - the eldest inheriting England, the other two Scotland and Wales. Additionally according to the legend; it was two groups of Trojans who originally arrived in Britain. The smaller group was led by a warrior named Corineus, to whom Brutus granted extensive estates. And just as Brutus had ‘called the island Britain…and his companions Britons’, so Corineus called ‘the region of the kingdom which had fallen to his share Cornwall, after the manner of his own name, and the people who lived there…Cornishmen’. No other region is picked out for such special treatment; it is clear that, as far as Geoffrey was concerned, Cornwall possessed a separate identity. Cornishmen and women continued to regard themselves as descendents of Corineus until well into the early modern period.
|- |align=center| 1652 || The English puritan preacher, Roger Williams complained that "we have Indians...in Cornwall, Indians in Wales, Indians in Ireland". |}
Bretagne 44
09:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Tidied it up a bit. "No other region is picked out for such special treatment; it is clear that, as far as Geoffrey was concerned, Cornwall possessed a separate identity," strikes me as rather too PoV (and if that's what the evidence shows, it shouldn't need stating); whilst "Cornishmen and women continued to regard themselves as descendents of Corineus until well into the early modern period" needs a citation. sjcollier 11:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Dr Mark Stoyle, West Britons, Cornish Indentities and the Early Modern british State; chap 1 page 13. ISBN 0 85989 688 9, University Of Exeter Press.
I have reverted your changes. Bretagne 44 14:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Stop vandalising the page in a hissy fit!
An ancient legend, the Brutus Myth, recounted by Geoffrey of Monmouth gives explicit reference to the Cornish people in describing their descent. The legend tells how Albion was colonised by refugees from Troy under King Brutus, how Brutus renamed his new Kingdom, Britain, and how the island was subsequently divided up between his three sons - the eldest inheriting England, the other two Scotland and Wales. Additionally according to the legend there were two groups of Trojans who originally arrived in Britain. The smaller group was led by a warrior named Corineus, to whom Brutus granted extensive estates. And just as Brutus had ‘called the island Britain…and his companions Britons’, so Corineus called ‘the region of the kingdom which had fallen to his share Cornwall, after the manner of his own name, and the people who lived there…Cornishmen’.
No other region is picked out for such special treatment; it is clear that, as far as Geoffrey was concerned, Cornwall possessed a separate identity. Cornishmen and women continued to regard themselves as descendents of Corineus until well into the early modern period. Bretagne 44 11:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Apart form the spelling mistakes i used the words of Mark Stoyle! 2) I did not label you an English nationalist. 3) It is an opinion yes, one more opinion to add to the list. Bretagne 44 16:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Do you have permision for that, or is it breach of copyright? 2) No, but you have done in the past when someone has disagreed with you over this article. 3) If it's an opinion then it needs to be made clear that it is an opinion, eg "The historian Dr Mark Stoyle has claimed that it is clear from this..." or something similar (with a reference). sjcollier 20:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Made the following changes:
# ^ Philip Payton, Professor of Cornish Studies at Exeter University, Cornwall – A History ISBN 1-904880-05-3
There is a wealth of other books on this subject like the Cornish Studies series and Our Future is History by John Angarrack. Should a list of books be provided for further reading? Bretagne 44 16:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
No, it's all good. Bretagne 44 13:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The link that formed the basis of the following paragraph was not working, so I removed it:
':Another survey, Quality of Life in Cornwall, offered Cornish inhabitants the choice between description as Cornish or English, but not both. 35.1% of the 15,000 people surveyed chose "Cornish", compared to 48.4% who chose English.'
Not sure if whoever knows about these things can fix the link, however. -- Robdurbar 09:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Added the following to the politics section:
The Cornish branch of the Green party also campaigns on a manifesto of devolution to Cornwall and Cornish minority issues. In the 2005 general election the Green party struck a partnership deal with Mebyon Kernow [1].
Bretagne 44 13:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Italic text== Most Britons and Western Europeans are of Iberian Origin. ==
Take your time and read well.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_amh_13_29.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Cavalli.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Y-MAP.GIF
World Haplogroups Maps (As recent as 2005)
Origins of haplogroup R1b. (Very interesting too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r1b_ydna_in_europe.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Maps.htm
HCC
Take your time and read it well. HCC.
taken them out from these two sentences:
Many in Cornwall consider themselves British and then Cornish, so use the term "British" to describe themselves.
Just check the last UK census for the number of people who ticked British.
Many others use only "Cornish" as a description of their ethnic or national identity. This is a phenomenon with a long historical precedent.
1)Over 37,000 wrote Cornish on the last census 2)Just read the historic quotes for proof of a Cornish identity. Bretagne 44 18:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Is emigration of people from Cornwall really called the Cornish Diaspora or is this someone's personal application of that term to this phenomenom? I haven't heard any emigration of people from the British isles referred to as a diaspora. The diaspora article states: The term diaspora (Ancient Greek διασπορά, "a scattering or sowing of seeds") is used (without capitalization) to refer to any people or ethnic population forced or induced to leave their traditional ethnic homelands; being dispersed throughout other parts of the world, and the ensuing developments in their dispersal and culture. Cornish people have never been forced to leave the country unless they were deported as any number of thousands of Britons were to the colonies. I think in many ways it is insulting to refer to emigration from Britain as a diaspora as that term seems more related to ethnic clensing or mass emigration due to natural events. I think this might be someone's attempt to make Cornish emigration sound dramatic or harrowsome when this isn't the case. I think that the same argument should apply to other British 'diasporas' too, such as eliminating Scottish diaspora. Does anyone agree? Should it be better kept simply to Cornish emigration or Emigration from Cornwall? Enzedbrit 03:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
There are actually more google hits for "Cornish emigration". I've commented on this at the Talk:Cornish emigration page Mammal4 10:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_diaspora#The_Scottish_diaspora
I did a general tidy up of the references. I have used the <ref> tag as per the footnotes how to. There were several instances of the punctuation (full stop or comma) comming after the reference, please remember that punctuation comes before the reference like this. [1] I included some additional references like a cite for Federal Union of European Nationalities. I have also made requests for some references to unsupported material, for example I can find no reference to the people who identified as ethnically Cornish on the 2001 census on the census page for Cornwall. I do not dispute that these people exist, but we still need a cite for it. There is also a map called 1937 Bartholomew published a Map of European Ethnicity prepared by the Edinburgh Institute of Geography, I don't doubt that this map is as it claims to be, but the source for the map is just an unatributed webpage, so we need a proper cite for the map and for it's source. Before anyone gets in a huff remember that verifiability is a policy that is non negotiable, you always have to provide it. I have also added a noncompliance tag to the article as I suspect some original research, and it is not fully verified anyway. Alun 07:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Many in Cornwall consider themselves British and then Cornish, so use the term "British" to describe themselves. This is a form of weasel words, how many? is it a significant minority? or a majority? or what? It appears to state a fact but is unattributed. There especially needs to be a citation for this as weasel words are particularly misleading. Alun 16:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
The best I can come up with on an online search for the census data is this, but it's from a blog, granted it's a letter from Bernard Moffatt, Secretary General of the Celtic League, which is good, but the letter is still only on a blog and blogs don't constitute reliable sources. Much of the content seems to be lifted from the wiki article anyway, or at least it uses almost the exact same data, which is suspicious. Alun 04:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I got the Morgan Stanley press release by emailing them asking them for it. I can forward on request. The Cornish data was I believe gotten by writing to the ONS. Morwen - Talk 16:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
If I have understood the copyright flow chart properly then the Bartholomew map (1937) copyright expires next year (2007), in which case it can be uploaded and included in the article. Alun 21:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Added the following: |- |align=center| 1769 || The Antiquarian, William Borlase wrote that "Of this time we are to understand what Edward I. says (Sheringham. p. 129.) that Britain, Wales, and Cornwall, were the portion of Belinus, elder son of Dunwallo, and that that part of the Island, afterwards called England, was divided in three shares, viz. Britain, which reached from the Tweed, Westward, as far as the river Ex; Wales inclosed by the rivers Severn, and Dee; and Cornwall from the river Ex to the Land's-End". |} Bretagne 44 15:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I have added the following:
About 34,000 people in Cornwall and 3,500 people in the rest of the UK wrote on their census forms in 2001 that they considered their ethnic group to be Cornish. This represented nearly 7% of the population of Cornwall and is therefore a significant phenomenon.
The source is from Cornish ethnicity data from the 2001 Census Malcolm Brown Cornwall County: [ [6]]
Bretagne 44 16:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
'The Cornish were recognised by the government's ONS as an ethnic group on the 2001 Census - see Census 2001 Ethnic Codes, code 06 - but they have been invisibilised in previous censuses. They are an indigenous national minority of the United Kingdom and possessors of a recognised minority language of these islands under the Council of Europe's European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. If the UK government has made legal undertakings with the Council of Europe to take "resolute" action in support of this language, how on earth is it going to measure its compliance with international legal obligations with respect both to this language and to the people associated with it, if it does not include relevant tick boxes in forthcoming censuses ? - please see - Cornish demand 2011 Census tick box. 195.92.67.74 21:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Nice to see the usual rightwing nut jobs come crawling out of the woodwork, I am going to leave your offensive remarks on the board because they serve as a good case in point. Bretagne 44 12:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The bit about the MC1R gene sounds incorrect. When one follows the link, one finds that MC1R codes all people's (and many animals) pigmentation. From the sounds of it, there is nothing about carrying MC1R, per say, that has anything to do with being any particular ethnic group. The Cornish may carry some specific mutation on MCR1 that is common amongst Celts, but that is unclear from either article. I will delete this item soon unless someone can elaborate with references. Sandwich Eater 04:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Why does the Cornish diaspora in the box mention Mexico and not Canada, which has 10 million people of British isles origins! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.154.247 ( talk) 23:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Come on folks... 24.255.11.149 ( talk) 19:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
So, was Belerion really the first place named in the British Isles? The British themselves had no names for places in their own island during the previous 8,000 years of British civilisation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.72.70.222 ( talk) 09:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Silver ball Pubsign.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 00:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
First of all, the part saying Cornish people are usually described as celtic people is very misleading. Quite a few people would say Cornish people are English people not celtic people, but either way it is certainly not backed up by the source which doesnt even mention celtic people.. just that Cornwall has a celtic background.
Im also unhappy with the way Cornish people are described as an ethnic group. This may be the case however i think better sources are required, if the only justification for this claim is the 2001 consensus, the fact it will not appear on the next consensus needs to be pointed out and explained.
We need an expert on this subject with a balanced view to shape a reasonable introduction. However if noone is able to help on this matter in the coming days i am going to remove the "usually described as Celtic people" from the introduction because i consider it misleading. It will leave the intro very short, but id rather a short introduction than a misleading intro or incorrect one. BritishWatcher ( talk) 17:40, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I feel it is important to point out that this article is about the Cornish people as national identity or ethnicity, NOT about the inhabitants of Cornwall, which the article Demographics of Cornwall would be for, if it existed, but is covered by the Demographics section of the Cornwall article. The Cornish people were given their own ethnicity code on the last census results, which I would say is evidence of the UK government's regarding the Cornish as a separate identity or ethnicity. That and the Canadian government's recognition of Cornish ethnicity on their census too.
This topic has been gone over many times in this article's history, so please read the talk page archives in full before you wish to question the legitimacy of the claim. This article was also a Collaboration of the Week by a UK Wikiproject, so I think the many issues regarding this article would have been sorted then.
Please also read the references given to gain an understanding of the subject, before using your personal opinion as a basis for any argument. -- Joowwww ( talk) 13:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
A comparison of Cornishness to the stupid (humorous) Jedi knight phenomenon is both facile and facetious. Cornishness is an identity which goes back at least a thousand years, is not an invention of a money grubbing Hollywood producer, and is something which has been shared by hundreds of thousands of people. The only people who have a problem with regarding the Cornish as an ethnicity are the English, and a few other British, maybe because of their vested interest, and the fact that their hold has been loosened on Scotland, Wales and most of Ireland. Continental minority groups have no problem in identifying them as a separate ethnicity. -- MacRusgail ( talk) 16:39, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
In response to Britishwatcher
Brythonek ( talk) 13:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
lmao, it appears that separatists and other people with a certain point of view are being encouraged to come here to influence articles on Cornwall matters, perhaps in a negatve way. A look at the "Cornwall" on their sites wiki page is a complete joke and shows their intentions. Someone thinks government spies are making edits to these cornwall pages, anyone wanna declare themselves??? lol. [12] This certainly explains why articles on Cornish matters have become so biased in recent times. BritishWatcher ( talk) 17:39, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
"it appears that separatists and other people with a certain point of view are being encouraged to come here to influence articles on Cornwall matters, perhaps in a negatve way." - Apart from the fact I've never posted on Cornwall 24, and have edited Cornish articles for years... haven't you just done something similar on the UK board, trying to encourage people of your viewpoint to come over? What we need here would be sources. Quite a few have been given by both sides, but there seems to be a concerted attempt by some people to remove them.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 18:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC) p.s. It would seem that some of the "British" (for want of a better term) editors hide behind more than one name.
This is really getting crazy. Won't you please listen to reason on this?
Read:
Wikipedia:NOTSOAPBOX.
I couldn't care less about the Cornish nationalist movement, I'm not a British nationalist (hell I'm not even British), I'm just a guy trying to fix a few pages on wikipedia so that they conform to sourced facts.
If you look at my edits clearly instead of seeing what you want to see you will find that I really am not taking a anti-Cornish side, the side that I am taking is one that attempts to make the articles conform more to NPOV and be factual.
So. Why don't we actually work at fixing this article rather than just blankly reverting and warring? (whatever dubious means are being used they can be forgotten).
So. Tell me. What is wrong with the fully sourced edit "Some Cornish people (Cornish: Kernowyon) self-identify as a distinct ethnic group or national identity originating in Cornwall."--
Him
and a
dog
11:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
The entries for 838 AD and 878 AD have been transposed: hope it can be fixed.---- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 02:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
The article says:
'' 1360 Treaty of Brétigny: "John, by the Grace of God, King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, Earl of Anjou, confirmed the aforesaid; and Richard, King of Germany and Earl of Cornwall, in like manner, confirmed the aforesaid".
I don't know where that quote comes from, but the fact is that the Treaty of Brétigny of 1360 was between King John II of France, and Edward III of England. TharkunColl 12:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
NB- original comment made in 2007 by TharkunColl yet information is still on page and leading to false edits.-
2009 (UTC)
I have unified the fragments referring to genetics in one sub-article. I don't think genetic origins should be discussed in Mythological origins to be honest. Furthermore, there was additional genetic information in descent, therefore I put them together under the title I quoted above. I have also included the following-
The genetic markes M167- SRY2627 forming the haplogroup R1b1b2a1b3 (R1b1c6) has been attributed to the Cornish people [13]. This group is calculated to have originated 2,850 BP and is predominantly found in Spain (esp. Catalonia), Western France, Cornwall, Wales, and the Basque country among Catalans, Gascons, Bretons and Cornish respectively. The so-called Italo-Celtic haplogroup R1b1b2a1b with markers P312- S116 is calculated to have originated 4,500 BP and is found in Western Europe. [2]
The Eupedia site has quire a lot of good information on DNA and European genetics from verifiable sources, so I hope this doesn't upset any apple-carts. Brythonek ( talk) 16:26, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
It is also quoted in ANGARRACK, J. (1999). Breaking the chains. Bodmin p4 Re the comment below, I don't see how it has been taken out of context honestly, the first paragraph is offensive, the second paragraph in poor taste, in my opinion at least, and the following ones just as bad. In fact, in my opinion, it's more kernophobic than I had thought before!
Brythonek ( talk) 10:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I have accessed the full article from Nexis. As you will see it is usually taken out of context.
The Times (London) August 13, 1999, Friday A Truro lass can eclipse me any day BYLINE: Giles Coren SECTION: Features LENGTH: 871 words
I hate the Cornish. I'm glad that nobody went to the eclipse, and that those who did couldn't see it. I hate their poxy language which they make such a fuss about, and their stupid morris dancing clothes. And I hate their fancy foreign food - like clotted cream - which makes the place stink, and I hate their fatuous demands to be treated as a nation.
I am delighted that little old Cornish ladies stood on their doorsteps crying, not knowing what to do with three hundredweight of rum-and-raisin flavoured fudge, specially cooked and parcelled into neat little hessian bags with commemorative badges. When I read that the Cornish pasty industry was in meltdown, I was so delighted that I felt like exhuming some Cornish corpses and impaling them on stakes.
And as for the quality of their workmanship, you couldn't make it up. A friend got me round to look at his fuse box the other day. It was a flipping disgrace. "Looks like it was put in by a bleeding Cornishman," I said.
I'll give them one thing, though: Cornish birds are in better shape than they used to be. Time was, you wouldn't climb over a nicely trimmed llama to get to a Cornish girl.
But these days they've sorted out the clothes problem, dropped all the bells and lacy bits, and lost a bit of weight. I would by no means say no to a bit of southwestern fluff every now and again. I wouldn't want one marrying my daughter, but that's another matter.
Salubrious, isn't it? But then, you see, I want to be a proper writer one day. And you can't unless you occasionally tempt people to wonder whether you are a loony racist.
The Duke of Edinburgh may have swiped the headline space reserved for toe-curling faux pas from Lord Archer of Weston-super-Mare. But that is irrelevant. I do not want to be a royal consort. I want to be a writer. A proper writer like Archer, Taki and A.A. Gill.
Gill, a writer who in other respects is greatly to be admired, is famous, I believe, for something he once said about Welsh people. I didn't read it - I was too young at the time - but I assume it was a bit rude and mentioned sheep.
Then he was rude about the Germans, and Taki (who I think has it in mainly for Puerto Ricans) wrote a rude response full of daft stereotyping. And then Gill called him a smelly dago lesbian.
It must be a generational thing. Because I just don't get it. Men over 45 seem to be obsessed with race, believe themselves to be proponents of free speech, believe their pronouncements to be humorous, and have no idea how spookily out of kilter they are with the way things now are.
Archer insists that if you look at his "answer in full", you will see that he was not denigrating black women but highlighting how far minorities have come in 30 years. I had a look. It was even worse in full than I thought.
"Your head did not turn if a black woman passed because they were badly dressed, probably overweight and probably had a lousy job. If you walk down London streets now, there are the most staggeringly beautiful girls of every nationality. That is part of getting rid of prejudice and making things equal."
It is not the allegations of fatness against a sexual-racial section that is most grim. It is the characterisation of Britain as a place where white men patrol for birds to ogle, and are pretty damned sad if a girl is a bit on the porky side or works in a shop. The suggestion that equality is achieved when Archer is prepared to cop a black bird from across the road, nudge his mate and shout "tits out for the lads" is as nefarious as making monkey noises and throwing bananas. Though I am sure he didn't mean it like that.
Men have never had trouble fancying women of races they otherwise did not respect. Slave owners raped their slaves. White settlers in America had sex with the indigenous women - passing on unfamiliar venereal diseases was a favourite genocidal tactic.
Archer's comments are more than a minor problem. The poor man believed he was saying something liberal and folksy. He thought that to say he occasionally fancied black women showed what a man of the world he was. He thought it separated him from old-fashioned Tories who wouldn't have considered interracial sex. Like so many men of his generation, it is when he tries to sound liberal, reasonable and progressive that he most finely highlights how far behind he is.
- As someone who once worked at Tatler, I think I know a thing or two about pashminas. I say a thing "or two" because anyone who knows three things about pashminas knows too much. That person may well be Sophia Swire. For she has declared September 15 National Pashmina Day.
The problem, apparently, is that these plain little cashmere blankets are supposed to cost Pounds 200 and to be available only to posh girls. But some Johnny Prole has started banging them out for Pounds 50. The result is that the elite cachet of the pashmina has been compromised. Extinction beckons.
Are we really going to stand up for an endangered garment? Why not a National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Pashminas (NSPCP)? Or a law that you can't make alterations to a Grade II listed pashmina without going through National Heritage?
LOAD-DATE: August 20, 1999
LANGUAGE: ENGLISH
Copyright 1999 Times Newspapers Limited
So it should actually be removed from the article. Jezhotwells ( talk) 09:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 11:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I have added a sub-section about the romantic and literary portrayal of Cornish people within the greater areas of West Country and Celtic identities. The subject is vast but I had tried to keep it as brief as possible and hope it doesn't read too much like an essay. Romantic views of Cornwall and Celticity have been and are still important in forming many notions and ideas about Cornwall and also Cornish people's ideas about themselves- I also think that the iclusion of this theme helps to balance out the negative portrayals of Cornish people that some have taken exception to. Brythonek ( talk) 13:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Im sorry but i have a problem with this section still, do all people articles have a mention of negative comments or portrayals of people? People say bad things about the Jews all the time, should every such mention be listed on the Jewish people article? The Jewish people article rightly mentions the Holocaust, but it doesnt mention Mel Gibson making offensive comments about a Jew.
Yet some of the things in this list are just so pathetic they are not notable enough to include in an article in this way. "
"2007: Leo Benedictus, in The Guardian in January, listed the following reasons not to move to Cornwall:- "Niche nationalism, Darkie Day, everyone's a Lib Dem, the missing generation, terrible football and cider."[89] - Thats an attack on Cornwall not "Cornish people" so it has no place there.
"2008: Students from Imperial College London were condemned for branding people from Cornwall as "inbred"" Oh my goodness a bunch of students said something offensive on an internet site??? Like that doesnt happen all the time. For god sake, im sorry but that one is just really pathetic.
If you have examples of genuine oppression of Cornish people it should be listed, but not these minor silly things. BritishWatcher ( talk) 11:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Let's hold on here. The problem Britishwatcher has is that he doesn't like the whole idea of Cornishness apart from Englishness. That's as may be and his opinion. I find the neutrality of Britishwatcher's tag debatable as he states "I have a problem with..." Let's look at the precedents :
I sorry but I am digging in on this one. Brythonek ( talk) 13:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
In response to Britishwatcher
Brythonek ( talk) 13:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
e/c I note that the request by Brythonek "I was thinking about doing some research on the portrayal of the Cornish in literature and on the media but that is much more lengthy work. Perhaps you could help?" attracted no response/was completely ignored. I literally loled when I saw it. How about Ghmyrtle compromise proposal: remove the student nonsense + remove the tag? Daicaregos ( talk) 14:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
PS I did not post the original material about the students, I just expanded it and checked to see if the source was Bona Fide or not. Brythonek ( talk) 14:15, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 13:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to add R. L. Stevenson's comments on the Cornish, which are stlightly negative.
Bodrugan (
talk)
00:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I think the article is shaping up nicely now, it's a shame the intro lets it down. Dha weles. Brythonek ( talk) 15:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Good ideas again Ghmyrtle! I will see how much I can turn into prose. I agree about the timeline, I have also found some problems with some of the facts- anyway...I am getting stuck with these images!-:( which is a bit of a problem. Brythonek ( talk) 17:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
In answer to the comments above.
Brythonek ( talk) 19:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
May I recommend that this article be restructed to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups/Template? It would broadly only mean a cosmetic restructuring. Ethnic group articles that have been peer assessed and promoted to FA and GA include Tamil people and the closely related British people. Presently the article is disjointed and not easily readable. -- Jza84 | Talk 20:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Some great changes to the article have been made over the past few days but I have the following issues, mainly about the distinction between Cornwall and Cornish people:
I would love this article to achieve GA or FA status but at the moment I think this article isn't representing enough of a worldwide view of the subject, needs to be clearly about Cornish people not the inhabitants of Cornwall, and is branching out too far into aspects of Cornish nationalism that are more suited to other articles. Also the ridiculous amount of references in the intro were there because of a recent dispute. If they are removed then expect more disputes in the future, it may be an idea to merge them all into the article. -- Joowwww ( talk) 10:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I understand the points above and agree with the restructuring, on the other hand there are a few points I would like to make.
I think we are splitting hairs hear about the definition of Cornish people and Cornwall and people who live in Cornwall etc. Ultimately, the Cornish at home and abroad will always use Cornwall and what happened/happens in Cornwall as a point of reference for their own "Cornish" identity- as long as it is clear I don't think we should over intellectualise the matter. Brythonek ( talk) 12:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 13:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm currently working on a revised image for the infobox. I have been give some suggestions in a private exchange, but I need more input.
The possible "draft" image is found here.
We need more candidates, and if possible, female ones. -- Jza84 | Talk 18:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
As requested I have translated the key points into a prose form. Obviously prose is more longwinded but I think that anything is better than that "ugly" timeline what spoiled the page before. Please feel let me know how this goes. I need to find a few refs for some of the comments, but they are coming, I'll do it directly. Seeing as the sub-article is "Key" moments I have given sub-headings to the paragraphs in order to break up the text blocks- a few images too would be nice to break the monotony of "broadsheet" text. Let me know what you think, and root out any typos!!!!!!!!! Brythonek ( talk) 11:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I have been trying to add some colour to this article with the image files available on wikipedia, inserting them next to or near paragraphs with the same theme. I have has some difficulty with text alignment. Could someone please help with tidying the image files up a bit so that they fit neatly? Please--- mar plek? I just plain don't know how to do it! To pre-empt a question, the reason for the image files is that as a former non wikiholic, the first thing that turned me off a page was a single block of text and no images. Many people scan up and down a page with their page up/down buttons and pictures catch the eye and draw it onto the text. Sometimes people click on a blue link to a page out of curiosity, "surfing" if you like and lots of image files increase the potential audience, and therefore subsequent edits and appraisal of an article. I have no evidence, references or citations to provide for these last comments!!!:)LOL!!!! Brythonek ( talk) 12:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 21:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 10:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
They ought to be checked out more thoroughly. Can't see there being a problem with Penwith District Council though as it no longer exists. Brythonek ( talk) 11:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, there's been a lot of requests for citation, but if we were to have more pride in this article, we should also be using something like Template:Citation for when we add references. Something like this is only half a job - something more like this is a proper web citation. This brings the benefits of helping find an archive of the site if it was to go dead, as well as present the material in a format that is professional and helps our readers. -- Jza84 | Talk 10:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Some of the citation calls here are getting a little over-zealous. Do we really need a citation to say that the CRFU is the governing body of Cornish rugby and includes all the rugby teams in Cornwall? Would we need a citation to say football is a very popular sport in Brazil?
There are enough blue links on this page to take the interested reader to more detailed explanations on those pages as well. Brythonek ( talk) 11:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
What is the problem with festivals in Cornwall, celebrating Cornish culture, tradition, sport and economy. Part of any ethnic group's culture is its festivals, events and passions- very often the prime means of cultural and ethnic expressionb. Imagine a Brazil page without mention of football? Brythonek ( talk) 11:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
With that last comment of yours, I suggest you continue to edit this article on your own. Brythonek ( talk) 11:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello all,
I've been looking at this page now, with some intensity, for around a week (although have watched/read this page for longer than I can recall) and feel very strongly that the article needs completely rewritting. Rationale being that the body of the article is a mixture of bad writing, synthesis, irrelvancy, weasel wording, unsourced opinion, and its at a point where it is basically too difficult separating the legitimate content from the illegitimate. Even the stuff that has a source either broadly has no page number, has gone dead (when it's been a web citation) and/or doesn't support what's being said in the article anyway. It's a sorry state of affairs.
In this capacity, I want to make a radical proposal - possibly the most radical I've ever made during my time on WP; I would like the entire article to be moved to a sandbox/subpage (say Cornish people/historical article) and a new article built at the Cornish people page from scratch. The historical article can be used to see the former content and pluck the good bits out of.
I have been developing a draft version of this possible article at User:Jza84/Sandbox5. I want to change a couple of things and make some additions, but if there's no objection, in the spirit of WP:BOLD, I seek to make this change happen as I believe it is conducive to the good of the encyclopedia and our readers.
P.S. will tag for speedy rewritting now. -- Jza84 | Talk 17:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
(<-) Just a note that I haven't forgotten about this. Infact, I'm nearing completion at User:Jza84/Sandbox5. There are some elements I'm struggling with, so advise here or on my talk page is most welcome. -- Jza84 | Talk 17:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems to only include festivals and events in Cornwall only. What about that great big one in Australia? Bodrugan ( talk) 00:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Was Emma Gifford Cornish? I believe she was Bristolian.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.119.178 ( talk) 20:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Just a nudge that I haven't forgotten about this revamp to the article, infact, having had a break, I plan to complete this asap. One major criticism of the sandbox has been the lack of explanation of Cornish culture and iconography and so any assistance in this area, supported by strong references, would be much appreciated. -- Jza84 | Talk 17:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I really need some help in verifying the following points. Some of them I've read someplace but lost the source, others are borrowed from various corners of Wikipedia and just need a reference to meet certain editorial standards:
Those are statements that need sources. I would also benefit greatly if anyone knows why or how
Methodism became so popular in Cornwall. I read somewhere it had some connection with mining communities in
South Wales, but can't seem to hit the spot. --
Jza84 |
Talk
18:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
I think the most authoritative source on Cornwall's climate would be this, which doesn't use the word "subtropical" so far as I can see, perhaps because there appears to be several alternative definitions of the term. The WP article on Subtropics states "the far Southwestern fringes of Cornwall in the United Kingdom meet both requirements [for meeting the definition of "subtropical"] —6 °C average in the coldest month and eight months with the average above 10 °C (specifically the Isles of Scilly)....And it is not surprising therefore that there are real palm trees growing in Devon and Cornwall." - but is unreferenced. This site states "Newquay has a maritime subtropical climate but don’t let this trick you; subtropical does not mean ‘almost tropical’. Newquay receives all four seasons and no extremes of temperature, but the winters are much milder than elsewhere in the UK." - but probably does not meet WP:RS. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 23:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
This is typical tourist marketing - don't believe everything you hear. The IOM, Channel Islands, Bournemouth, Poole etc all make such claims. Usually they use pictures of so called "palm trees", which are planted throughout the UK in such tourist resorts. In fact, they are nothing of the sort, but cabbage trees, a relative of the lily, which grow up mountains in NZ, and can be found as far north as 'sunny' Plockton and Rothesay in the Highlands (both of which are very damp, despite being pretty).-- MacRusgail ( talk) 15:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way, a casual look at the 'subtropical' map shows that even Galicia, the Basque Country and the vast majority of France don't make it. I don't believe that Cornwall is warmer than northern Spain.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 15:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm unsure about certain key facts about the Cornish Stannary Courts and Parliaments. I understand that they were given a charter by King John (saying what I don't know) and another by King Edward I. I know the last time the court/parliament (?) met was 1752. I know they met to discuss tin mining in Cornwall and I know that there is a Revived Cornish Stannary Parliament. Beyond that, I'm a little lost. Can anybody clear this up as the current Stannary Courts and Parliaments article is, well, not great. I also need a reference or two (if not a rewrite) for the following:
Stannary Courts administered equity for Cornwall's tin-miners and tin mining interests, with executive authority vested in the Lord Warden of the Stannaries. Established by a charter by King John of England, Cornwall's tin mines had major economic significance for England in the Middle Ages; Stannators were required to uphold and represent "just and ancient customs and liberties" through special laws and legal exemptions. As the tin mines of Cornwall lost their economic importance during the 18th and 19th centuries, so the Stannary institutions lost political power.
Can anybody help? -- Jza84 | Talk 15:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for the barrage of new headings of late, I'm hoping this is my last for some time. Just a note that a rewrite of this article is now ready as a final draft here. If you have any final concerns or suggestions before it goes live, then, well, now is the time please. I can assure readers however that the content is 100% verifiable, if nothing else. :) -- Jza84 | Talk 01:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
A few points, the England ref at the beginning is contentitious, secondly, the overseas section should include Mexico, there are a couple of towns with Cornish links there. The rugby section could be stronger, as this is one of the main focusses of Cornish identity/nationalism, with all the complications this involves - see here. There is also an academic study of Cornish rugby and identity, but I don't have the link to hand.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 15:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC) p.s. WP Ethnic Groups doesn't seem to do very much.
As stated elsewhere, MK are only the tip of the iceberg. Cornish nationalism/patriotism doesn't begin or end with them. Andrew George MP, a Lib Dem, for example qualifies well as a kind of Cornish nationalist. And I've already mentioned the rugby. The flags are another manifestation of this (although many people in English counties have started flying flags more recently - which muddies the water)
Also, the Kilbrandon Commission stated that Cornwall was in a unique position, and there are also other legal arguments for saying this. That said, the British constitutional set up is contradictory and geared towards suiting certain people are certain times. Traditionally there hasn't been a proper attempt to sort out the mess (unlike France, the USA etc), rather the various documents have all sunk to the bottom of the pile, like layers of sludge at the bottom of a river.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 16:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
"only 7% saw the need to clasify themselves as Cornish." - this is highly misleading. In actual fact, the census operated on an opt-in basis, rather than supplying a tick box, as for other groups. If one has an opt-in for Scottish, Welsh or English, rather than a tick box, you'd find the figures would be similarly much lower. This figure also masks the true number of people who would consider themselves Cornish and British, or even Cornish and English, but with a distinct identity.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 17:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Added the following:
An ancient legend, the Brutus Myth, recounted by Geoffrey of Monmouth gives explicit reference to the Cornish people in describing their decent. The legend tell how Albion was colonised by refugees from Troy under King Brutus, how Brutus reamed his new Kingdom, Britain, and how the island was subsequently divided up between his three sons - the eldest inheriting England, the other two Scotland and Wales. Additionally according to the legend; it was two groups of Trojans who originally arrived in Britain. The smaller group was led by a warrior named Corineus, to whom Brutus granted extensive estates. And just as Brutus had ‘called the island Britain…and his companions Britons’, so Corineus called ‘the region of the kingdom which had fallen to his share Cornwall, after the manner of his own name, and the people who lived there…Cornishmen’. No other region is picked out for such special treatment; it is clear that, as far as Geoffrey was concerned, Cornwall possessed a separate identity. Cornishmen and women continued to regard themselves as descendents of Corineus until well into the early modern period.
|- |align=center| 1652 || The English puritan preacher, Roger Williams complained that "we have Indians...in Cornwall, Indians in Wales, Indians in Ireland". |}
Bretagne 44
09:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Tidied it up a bit. "No other region is picked out for such special treatment; it is clear that, as far as Geoffrey was concerned, Cornwall possessed a separate identity," strikes me as rather too PoV (and if that's what the evidence shows, it shouldn't need stating); whilst "Cornishmen and women continued to regard themselves as descendents of Corineus until well into the early modern period" needs a citation. sjcollier 11:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Dr Mark Stoyle, West Britons, Cornish Indentities and the Early Modern british State; chap 1 page 13. ISBN 0 85989 688 9, University Of Exeter Press.
I have reverted your changes. Bretagne 44 14:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Stop vandalising the page in a hissy fit!
An ancient legend, the Brutus Myth, recounted by Geoffrey of Monmouth gives explicit reference to the Cornish people in describing their descent. The legend tells how Albion was colonised by refugees from Troy under King Brutus, how Brutus renamed his new Kingdom, Britain, and how the island was subsequently divided up between his three sons - the eldest inheriting England, the other two Scotland and Wales. Additionally according to the legend there were two groups of Trojans who originally arrived in Britain. The smaller group was led by a warrior named Corineus, to whom Brutus granted extensive estates. And just as Brutus had ‘called the island Britain…and his companions Britons’, so Corineus called ‘the region of the kingdom which had fallen to his share Cornwall, after the manner of his own name, and the people who lived there…Cornishmen’.
No other region is picked out for such special treatment; it is clear that, as far as Geoffrey was concerned, Cornwall possessed a separate identity. Cornishmen and women continued to regard themselves as descendents of Corineus until well into the early modern period. Bretagne 44 11:18, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Apart form the spelling mistakes i used the words of Mark Stoyle! 2) I did not label you an English nationalist. 3) It is an opinion yes, one more opinion to add to the list. Bretagne 44 16:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
1) Do you have permision for that, or is it breach of copyright? 2) No, but you have done in the past when someone has disagreed with you over this article. 3) If it's an opinion then it needs to be made clear that it is an opinion, eg "The historian Dr Mark Stoyle has claimed that it is clear from this..." or something similar (with a reference). sjcollier 20:45, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Made the following changes:
# ^ Philip Payton, Professor of Cornish Studies at Exeter University, Cornwall – A History ISBN 1-904880-05-3
There is a wealth of other books on this subject like the Cornish Studies series and Our Future is History by John Angarrack. Should a list of books be provided for further reading? Bretagne 44 16:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
No, it's all good. Bretagne 44 13:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
The link that formed the basis of the following paragraph was not working, so I removed it:
':Another survey, Quality of Life in Cornwall, offered Cornish inhabitants the choice between description as Cornish or English, but not both. 35.1% of the 15,000 people surveyed chose "Cornish", compared to 48.4% who chose English.'
Not sure if whoever knows about these things can fix the link, however. -- Robdurbar 09:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Added the following to the politics section:
The Cornish branch of the Green party also campaigns on a manifesto of devolution to Cornwall and Cornish minority issues. In the 2005 general election the Green party struck a partnership deal with Mebyon Kernow [1].
Bretagne 44 13:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Italic text== Most Britons and Western Europeans are of Iberian Origin. ==
Take your time and read well.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_r1b_amh_13_29.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Cavalli.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Y-MAP.GIF
World Haplogroups Maps (As recent as 2005)
Origins of haplogroup R1b. (Very interesting too)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29
http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r1b_ydna_in_europe.htm
http://www.geocities.com/littlednaproject/Maps.htm
HCC
Take your time and read it well. HCC.
taken them out from these two sentences:
Many in Cornwall consider themselves British and then Cornish, so use the term "British" to describe themselves.
Just check the last UK census for the number of people who ticked British.
Many others use only "Cornish" as a description of their ethnic or national identity. This is a phenomenon with a long historical precedent.
1)Over 37,000 wrote Cornish on the last census 2)Just read the historic quotes for proof of a Cornish identity. Bretagne 44 18:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Is emigration of people from Cornwall really called the Cornish Diaspora or is this someone's personal application of that term to this phenomenom? I haven't heard any emigration of people from the British isles referred to as a diaspora. The diaspora article states: The term diaspora (Ancient Greek διασπορά, "a scattering or sowing of seeds") is used (without capitalization) to refer to any people or ethnic population forced or induced to leave their traditional ethnic homelands; being dispersed throughout other parts of the world, and the ensuing developments in their dispersal and culture. Cornish people have never been forced to leave the country unless they were deported as any number of thousands of Britons were to the colonies. I think in many ways it is insulting to refer to emigration from Britain as a diaspora as that term seems more related to ethnic clensing or mass emigration due to natural events. I think this might be someone's attempt to make Cornish emigration sound dramatic or harrowsome when this isn't the case. I think that the same argument should apply to other British 'diasporas' too, such as eliminating Scottish diaspora. Does anyone agree? Should it be better kept simply to Cornish emigration or Emigration from Cornwall? Enzedbrit 03:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
There are actually more google hits for "Cornish emigration". I've commented on this at the Talk:Cornish emigration page Mammal4 10:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_diaspora#The_Scottish_diaspora
I did a general tidy up of the references. I have used the <ref> tag as per the footnotes how to. There were several instances of the punctuation (full stop or comma) comming after the reference, please remember that punctuation comes before the reference like this. [1] I included some additional references like a cite for Federal Union of European Nationalities. I have also made requests for some references to unsupported material, for example I can find no reference to the people who identified as ethnically Cornish on the 2001 census on the census page for Cornwall. I do not dispute that these people exist, but we still need a cite for it. There is also a map called 1937 Bartholomew published a Map of European Ethnicity prepared by the Edinburgh Institute of Geography, I don't doubt that this map is as it claims to be, but the source for the map is just an unatributed webpage, so we need a proper cite for the map and for it's source. Before anyone gets in a huff remember that verifiability is a policy that is non negotiable, you always have to provide it. I have also added a noncompliance tag to the article as I suspect some original research, and it is not fully verified anyway. Alun 07:47, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Many in Cornwall consider themselves British and then Cornish, so use the term "British" to describe themselves. This is a form of weasel words, how many? is it a significant minority? or a majority? or what? It appears to state a fact but is unattributed. There especially needs to be a citation for this as weasel words are particularly misleading. Alun 16:27, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
The best I can come up with on an online search for the census data is this, but it's from a blog, granted it's a letter from Bernard Moffatt, Secretary General of the Celtic League, which is good, but the letter is still only on a blog and blogs don't constitute reliable sources. Much of the content seems to be lifted from the wiki article anyway, or at least it uses almost the exact same data, which is suspicious. Alun 04:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I got the Morgan Stanley press release by emailing them asking them for it. I can forward on request. The Cornish data was I believe gotten by writing to the ONS. Morwen - Talk 16:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
If I have understood the copyright flow chart properly then the Bartholomew map (1937) copyright expires next year (2007), in which case it can be uploaded and included in the article. Alun 21:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Added the following: |- |align=center| 1769 || The Antiquarian, William Borlase wrote that "Of this time we are to understand what Edward I. says (Sheringham. p. 129.) that Britain, Wales, and Cornwall, were the portion of Belinus, elder son of Dunwallo, and that that part of the Island, afterwards called England, was divided in three shares, viz. Britain, which reached from the Tweed, Westward, as far as the river Ex; Wales inclosed by the rivers Severn, and Dee; and Cornwall from the river Ex to the Land's-End". |} Bretagne 44 15:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I have added the following:
About 34,000 people in Cornwall and 3,500 people in the rest of the UK wrote on their census forms in 2001 that they considered their ethnic group to be Cornish. This represented nearly 7% of the population of Cornwall and is therefore a significant phenomenon.
The source is from Cornish ethnicity data from the 2001 Census Malcolm Brown Cornwall County: [ [6]]
Bretagne 44 16:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
'The Cornish were recognised by the government's ONS as an ethnic group on the 2001 Census - see Census 2001 Ethnic Codes, code 06 - but they have been invisibilised in previous censuses. They are an indigenous national minority of the United Kingdom and possessors of a recognised minority language of these islands under the Council of Europe's European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. If the UK government has made legal undertakings with the Council of Europe to take "resolute" action in support of this language, how on earth is it going to measure its compliance with international legal obligations with respect both to this language and to the people associated with it, if it does not include relevant tick boxes in forthcoming censuses ? - please see - Cornish demand 2011 Census tick box. 195.92.67.74 21:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Nice to see the usual rightwing nut jobs come crawling out of the woodwork, I am going to leave your offensive remarks on the board because they serve as a good case in point. Bretagne 44 12:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The bit about the MC1R gene sounds incorrect. When one follows the link, one finds that MC1R codes all people's (and many animals) pigmentation. From the sounds of it, there is nothing about carrying MC1R, per say, that has anything to do with being any particular ethnic group. The Cornish may carry some specific mutation on MCR1 that is common amongst Celts, but that is unclear from either article. I will delete this item soon unless someone can elaborate with references. Sandwich Eater 04:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Why does the Cornish diaspora in the box mention Mexico and not Canada, which has 10 million people of British isles origins! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.154.247 ( talk) 23:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Come on folks... 24.255.11.149 ( talk) 19:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
So, was Belerion really the first place named in the British Isles? The British themselves had no names for places in their own island during the previous 8,000 years of British civilisation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.72.70.222 ( talk) 09:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The image Image:Silver ball Pubsign.JPG is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. -- 00:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
First of all, the part saying Cornish people are usually described as celtic people is very misleading. Quite a few people would say Cornish people are English people not celtic people, but either way it is certainly not backed up by the source which doesnt even mention celtic people.. just that Cornwall has a celtic background.
Im also unhappy with the way Cornish people are described as an ethnic group. This may be the case however i think better sources are required, if the only justification for this claim is the 2001 consensus, the fact it will not appear on the next consensus needs to be pointed out and explained.
We need an expert on this subject with a balanced view to shape a reasonable introduction. However if noone is able to help on this matter in the coming days i am going to remove the "usually described as Celtic people" from the introduction because i consider it misleading. It will leave the intro very short, but id rather a short introduction than a misleading intro or incorrect one. BritishWatcher ( talk) 17:40, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I feel it is important to point out that this article is about the Cornish people as national identity or ethnicity, NOT about the inhabitants of Cornwall, which the article Demographics of Cornwall would be for, if it existed, but is covered by the Demographics section of the Cornwall article. The Cornish people were given their own ethnicity code on the last census results, which I would say is evidence of the UK government's regarding the Cornish as a separate identity or ethnicity. That and the Canadian government's recognition of Cornish ethnicity on their census too.
This topic has been gone over many times in this article's history, so please read the talk page archives in full before you wish to question the legitimacy of the claim. This article was also a Collaboration of the Week by a UK Wikiproject, so I think the many issues regarding this article would have been sorted then.
Please also read the references given to gain an understanding of the subject, before using your personal opinion as a basis for any argument. -- Joowwww ( talk) 13:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
A comparison of Cornishness to the stupid (humorous) Jedi knight phenomenon is both facile and facetious. Cornishness is an identity which goes back at least a thousand years, is not an invention of a money grubbing Hollywood producer, and is something which has been shared by hundreds of thousands of people. The only people who have a problem with regarding the Cornish as an ethnicity are the English, and a few other British, maybe because of their vested interest, and the fact that their hold has been loosened on Scotland, Wales and most of Ireland. Continental minority groups have no problem in identifying them as a separate ethnicity. -- MacRusgail ( talk) 16:39, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
In response to Britishwatcher
Brythonek ( talk) 13:42, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
lmao, it appears that separatists and other people with a certain point of view are being encouraged to come here to influence articles on Cornwall matters, perhaps in a negatve way. A look at the "Cornwall" on their sites wiki page is a complete joke and shows their intentions. Someone thinks government spies are making edits to these cornwall pages, anyone wanna declare themselves??? lol. [12] This certainly explains why articles on Cornish matters have become so biased in recent times. BritishWatcher ( talk) 17:39, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
"it appears that separatists and other people with a certain point of view are being encouraged to come here to influence articles on Cornwall matters, perhaps in a negatve way." - Apart from the fact I've never posted on Cornwall 24, and have edited Cornish articles for years... haven't you just done something similar on the UK board, trying to encourage people of your viewpoint to come over? What we need here would be sources. Quite a few have been given by both sides, but there seems to be a concerted attempt by some people to remove them.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 18:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC) p.s. It would seem that some of the "British" (for want of a better term) editors hide behind more than one name.
This is really getting crazy. Won't you please listen to reason on this?
Read:
Wikipedia:NOTSOAPBOX.
I couldn't care less about the Cornish nationalist movement, I'm not a British nationalist (hell I'm not even British), I'm just a guy trying to fix a few pages on wikipedia so that they conform to sourced facts.
If you look at my edits clearly instead of seeing what you want to see you will find that I really am not taking a anti-Cornish side, the side that I am taking is one that attempts to make the articles conform more to NPOV and be factual.
So. Why don't we actually work at fixing this article rather than just blankly reverting and warring? (whatever dubious means are being used they can be forgotten).
So. Tell me. What is wrong with the fully sourced edit "Some Cornish people (Cornish: Kernowyon) self-identify as a distinct ethnic group or national identity originating in Cornwall."--
Him
and a
dog
11:16, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
The entries for 838 AD and 878 AD have been transposed: hope it can be fixed.---- Felix Folio Secundus ( talk) 02:24, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
The article says:
'' 1360 Treaty of Brétigny: "John, by the Grace of God, King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, Earl of Anjou, confirmed the aforesaid; and Richard, King of Germany and Earl of Cornwall, in like manner, confirmed the aforesaid".
I don't know where that quote comes from, but the fact is that the Treaty of Brétigny of 1360 was between King John II of France, and Edward III of England. TharkunColl 12:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
NB- original comment made in 2007 by TharkunColl yet information is still on page and leading to false edits.-
2009 (UTC)
I have unified the fragments referring to genetics in one sub-article. I don't think genetic origins should be discussed in Mythological origins to be honest. Furthermore, there was additional genetic information in descent, therefore I put them together under the title I quoted above. I have also included the following-
The genetic markes M167- SRY2627 forming the haplogroup R1b1b2a1b3 (R1b1c6) has been attributed to the Cornish people [13]. This group is calculated to have originated 2,850 BP and is predominantly found in Spain (esp. Catalonia), Western France, Cornwall, Wales, and the Basque country among Catalans, Gascons, Bretons and Cornish respectively. The so-called Italo-Celtic haplogroup R1b1b2a1b with markers P312- S116 is calculated to have originated 4,500 BP and is found in Western Europe. [2]
The Eupedia site has quire a lot of good information on DNA and European genetics from verifiable sources, so I hope this doesn't upset any apple-carts. Brythonek ( talk) 16:26, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
It is also quoted in ANGARRACK, J. (1999). Breaking the chains. Bodmin p4 Re the comment below, I don't see how it has been taken out of context honestly, the first paragraph is offensive, the second paragraph in poor taste, in my opinion at least, and the following ones just as bad. In fact, in my opinion, it's more kernophobic than I had thought before!
Brythonek ( talk) 10:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I have accessed the full article from Nexis. As you will see it is usually taken out of context.
The Times (London) August 13, 1999, Friday A Truro lass can eclipse me any day BYLINE: Giles Coren SECTION: Features LENGTH: 871 words
I hate the Cornish. I'm glad that nobody went to the eclipse, and that those who did couldn't see it. I hate their poxy language which they make such a fuss about, and their stupid morris dancing clothes. And I hate their fancy foreign food - like clotted cream - which makes the place stink, and I hate their fatuous demands to be treated as a nation.
I am delighted that little old Cornish ladies stood on their doorsteps crying, not knowing what to do with three hundredweight of rum-and-raisin flavoured fudge, specially cooked and parcelled into neat little hessian bags with commemorative badges. When I read that the Cornish pasty industry was in meltdown, I was so delighted that I felt like exhuming some Cornish corpses and impaling them on stakes.
And as for the quality of their workmanship, you couldn't make it up. A friend got me round to look at his fuse box the other day. It was a flipping disgrace. "Looks like it was put in by a bleeding Cornishman," I said.
I'll give them one thing, though: Cornish birds are in better shape than they used to be. Time was, you wouldn't climb over a nicely trimmed llama to get to a Cornish girl.
But these days they've sorted out the clothes problem, dropped all the bells and lacy bits, and lost a bit of weight. I would by no means say no to a bit of southwestern fluff every now and again. I wouldn't want one marrying my daughter, but that's another matter.
Salubrious, isn't it? But then, you see, I want to be a proper writer one day. And you can't unless you occasionally tempt people to wonder whether you are a loony racist.
The Duke of Edinburgh may have swiped the headline space reserved for toe-curling faux pas from Lord Archer of Weston-super-Mare. But that is irrelevant. I do not want to be a royal consort. I want to be a writer. A proper writer like Archer, Taki and A.A. Gill.
Gill, a writer who in other respects is greatly to be admired, is famous, I believe, for something he once said about Welsh people. I didn't read it - I was too young at the time - but I assume it was a bit rude and mentioned sheep.
Then he was rude about the Germans, and Taki (who I think has it in mainly for Puerto Ricans) wrote a rude response full of daft stereotyping. And then Gill called him a smelly dago lesbian.
It must be a generational thing. Because I just don't get it. Men over 45 seem to be obsessed with race, believe themselves to be proponents of free speech, believe their pronouncements to be humorous, and have no idea how spookily out of kilter they are with the way things now are.
Archer insists that if you look at his "answer in full", you will see that he was not denigrating black women but highlighting how far minorities have come in 30 years. I had a look. It was even worse in full than I thought.
"Your head did not turn if a black woman passed because they were badly dressed, probably overweight and probably had a lousy job. If you walk down London streets now, there are the most staggeringly beautiful girls of every nationality. That is part of getting rid of prejudice and making things equal."
It is not the allegations of fatness against a sexual-racial section that is most grim. It is the characterisation of Britain as a place where white men patrol for birds to ogle, and are pretty damned sad if a girl is a bit on the porky side or works in a shop. The suggestion that equality is achieved when Archer is prepared to cop a black bird from across the road, nudge his mate and shout "tits out for the lads" is as nefarious as making monkey noises and throwing bananas. Though I am sure he didn't mean it like that.
Men have never had trouble fancying women of races they otherwise did not respect. Slave owners raped their slaves. White settlers in America had sex with the indigenous women - passing on unfamiliar venereal diseases was a favourite genocidal tactic.
Archer's comments are more than a minor problem. The poor man believed he was saying something liberal and folksy. He thought that to say he occasionally fancied black women showed what a man of the world he was. He thought it separated him from old-fashioned Tories who wouldn't have considered interracial sex. Like so many men of his generation, it is when he tries to sound liberal, reasonable and progressive that he most finely highlights how far behind he is.
- As someone who once worked at Tatler, I think I know a thing or two about pashminas. I say a thing "or two" because anyone who knows three things about pashminas knows too much. That person may well be Sophia Swire. For she has declared September 15 National Pashmina Day.
The problem, apparently, is that these plain little cashmere blankets are supposed to cost Pounds 200 and to be available only to posh girls. But some Johnny Prole has started banging them out for Pounds 50. The result is that the elite cachet of the pashmina has been compromised. Extinction beckons.
Are we really going to stand up for an endangered garment? Why not a National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Pashminas (NSPCP)? Or a law that you can't make alterations to a Grade II listed pashmina without going through National Heritage?
LOAD-DATE: August 20, 1999
LANGUAGE: ENGLISH
Copyright 1999 Times Newspapers Limited
So it should actually be removed from the article. Jezhotwells ( talk) 09:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 11:34, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
I have added a sub-section about the romantic and literary portrayal of Cornish people within the greater areas of West Country and Celtic identities. The subject is vast but I had tried to keep it as brief as possible and hope it doesn't read too much like an essay. Romantic views of Cornwall and Celticity have been and are still important in forming many notions and ideas about Cornwall and also Cornish people's ideas about themselves- I also think that the iclusion of this theme helps to balance out the negative portrayals of Cornish people that some have taken exception to. Brythonek ( talk) 13:31, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Im sorry but i have a problem with this section still, do all people articles have a mention of negative comments or portrayals of people? People say bad things about the Jews all the time, should every such mention be listed on the Jewish people article? The Jewish people article rightly mentions the Holocaust, but it doesnt mention Mel Gibson making offensive comments about a Jew.
Yet some of the things in this list are just so pathetic they are not notable enough to include in an article in this way. "
"2007: Leo Benedictus, in The Guardian in January, listed the following reasons not to move to Cornwall:- "Niche nationalism, Darkie Day, everyone's a Lib Dem, the missing generation, terrible football and cider."[89] - Thats an attack on Cornwall not "Cornish people" so it has no place there.
"2008: Students from Imperial College London were condemned for branding people from Cornwall as "inbred"" Oh my goodness a bunch of students said something offensive on an internet site??? Like that doesnt happen all the time. For god sake, im sorry but that one is just really pathetic.
If you have examples of genuine oppression of Cornish people it should be listed, but not these minor silly things. BritishWatcher ( talk) 11:47, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Let's hold on here. The problem Britishwatcher has is that he doesn't like the whole idea of Cornishness apart from Englishness. That's as may be and his opinion. I find the neutrality of Britishwatcher's tag debatable as he states "I have a problem with..." Let's look at the precedents :
I sorry but I am digging in on this one. Brythonek ( talk) 13:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
In response to Britishwatcher
Brythonek ( talk) 13:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
e/c I note that the request by Brythonek "I was thinking about doing some research on the portrayal of the Cornish in literature and on the media but that is much more lengthy work. Perhaps you could help?" attracted no response/was completely ignored. I literally loled when I saw it. How about Ghmyrtle compromise proposal: remove the student nonsense + remove the tag? Daicaregos ( talk) 14:08, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
PS I did not post the original material about the students, I just expanded it and checked to see if the source was Bona Fide or not. Brythonek ( talk) 14:15, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 13:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to add R. L. Stevenson's comments on the Cornish, which are stlightly negative.
Bodrugan (
talk)
00:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
I think the article is shaping up nicely now, it's a shame the intro lets it down. Dha weles. Brythonek ( talk) 15:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Good ideas again Ghmyrtle! I will see how much I can turn into prose. I agree about the timeline, I have also found some problems with some of the facts- anyway...I am getting stuck with these images!-:( which is a bit of a problem. Brythonek ( talk) 17:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
In answer to the comments above.
Brythonek ( talk) 19:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
May I recommend that this article be restructed to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups/Template? It would broadly only mean a cosmetic restructuring. Ethnic group articles that have been peer assessed and promoted to FA and GA include Tamil people and the closely related British people. Presently the article is disjointed and not easily readable. -- Jza84 | Talk 20:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Some great changes to the article have been made over the past few days but I have the following issues, mainly about the distinction between Cornwall and Cornish people:
I would love this article to achieve GA or FA status but at the moment I think this article isn't representing enough of a worldwide view of the subject, needs to be clearly about Cornish people not the inhabitants of Cornwall, and is branching out too far into aspects of Cornish nationalism that are more suited to other articles. Also the ridiculous amount of references in the intro were there because of a recent dispute. If they are removed then expect more disputes in the future, it may be an idea to merge them all into the article. -- Joowwww ( talk) 10:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I understand the points above and agree with the restructuring, on the other hand there are a few points I would like to make.
I think we are splitting hairs hear about the definition of Cornish people and Cornwall and people who live in Cornwall etc. Ultimately, the Cornish at home and abroad will always use Cornwall and what happened/happens in Cornwall as a point of reference for their own "Cornish" identity- as long as it is clear I don't think we should over intellectualise the matter. Brythonek ( talk) 12:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 13:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm currently working on a revised image for the infobox. I have been give some suggestions in a private exchange, but I need more input.
The possible "draft" image is found here.
We need more candidates, and if possible, female ones. -- Jza84 | Talk 18:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
As requested I have translated the key points into a prose form. Obviously prose is more longwinded but I think that anything is better than that "ugly" timeline what spoiled the page before. Please feel let me know how this goes. I need to find a few refs for some of the comments, but they are coming, I'll do it directly. Seeing as the sub-article is "Key" moments I have given sub-headings to the paragraphs in order to break up the text blocks- a few images too would be nice to break the monotony of "broadsheet" text. Let me know what you think, and root out any typos!!!!!!!!! Brythonek ( talk) 11:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I have been trying to add some colour to this article with the image files available on wikipedia, inserting them next to or near paragraphs with the same theme. I have has some difficulty with text alignment. Could someone please help with tidying the image files up a bit so that they fit neatly? Please--- mar plek? I just plain don't know how to do it! To pre-empt a question, the reason for the image files is that as a former non wikiholic, the first thing that turned me off a page was a single block of text and no images. Many people scan up and down a page with their page up/down buttons and pictures catch the eye and draw it onto the text. Sometimes people click on a blue link to a page out of curiosity, "surfing" if you like and lots of image files increase the potential audience, and therefore subsequent edits and appraisal of an article. I have no evidence, references or citations to provide for these last comments!!!:)LOL!!!! Brythonek ( talk) 12:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 21:03, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 10:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
They ought to be checked out more thoroughly. Can't see there being a problem with Penwith District Council though as it no longer exists. Brythonek ( talk) 11:07, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, there's been a lot of requests for citation, but if we were to have more pride in this article, we should also be using something like Template:Citation for when we add references. Something like this is only half a job - something more like this is a proper web citation. This brings the benefits of helping find an archive of the site if it was to go dead, as well as present the material in a format that is professional and helps our readers. -- Jza84 | Talk 10:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Some of the citation calls here are getting a little over-zealous. Do we really need a citation to say that the CRFU is the governing body of Cornish rugby and includes all the rugby teams in Cornwall? Would we need a citation to say football is a very popular sport in Brazil?
There are enough blue links on this page to take the interested reader to more detailed explanations on those pages as well. Brythonek ( talk) 11:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
What is the problem with festivals in Cornwall, celebrating Cornish culture, tradition, sport and economy. Part of any ethnic group's culture is its festivals, events and passions- very often the prime means of cultural and ethnic expressionb. Imagine a Brazil page without mention of football? Brythonek ( talk) 11:03, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
With that last comment of yours, I suggest you continue to edit this article on your own. Brythonek ( talk) 11:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
Hello all,
I've been looking at this page now, with some intensity, for around a week (although have watched/read this page for longer than I can recall) and feel very strongly that the article needs completely rewritting. Rationale being that the body of the article is a mixture of bad writing, synthesis, irrelvancy, weasel wording, unsourced opinion, and its at a point where it is basically too difficult separating the legitimate content from the illegitimate. Even the stuff that has a source either broadly has no page number, has gone dead (when it's been a web citation) and/or doesn't support what's being said in the article anyway. It's a sorry state of affairs.
In this capacity, I want to make a radical proposal - possibly the most radical I've ever made during my time on WP; I would like the entire article to be moved to a sandbox/subpage (say Cornish people/historical article) and a new article built at the Cornish people page from scratch. The historical article can be used to see the former content and pluck the good bits out of.
I have been developing a draft version of this possible article at User:Jza84/Sandbox5. I want to change a couple of things and make some additions, but if there's no objection, in the spirit of WP:BOLD, I seek to make this change happen as I believe it is conducive to the good of the encyclopedia and our readers.
P.S. will tag for speedy rewritting now. -- Jza84 | Talk 17:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
(<-) Just a note that I haven't forgotten about this. Infact, I'm nearing completion at User:Jza84/Sandbox5. There are some elements I'm struggling with, so advise here or on my talk page is most welcome. -- Jza84 | Talk 17:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
It seems to only include festivals and events in Cornwall only. What about that great big one in Australia? Bodrugan ( talk) 00:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
Was Emma Gifford Cornish? I believe she was Bristolian.~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.8.119.178 ( talk) 20:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Just a nudge that I haven't forgotten about this revamp to the article, infact, having had a break, I plan to complete this asap. One major criticism of the sandbox has been the lack of explanation of Cornish culture and iconography and so any assistance in this area, supported by strong references, would be much appreciated. -- Jza84 | Talk 17:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I really need some help in verifying the following points. Some of them I've read someplace but lost the source, others are borrowed from various corners of Wikipedia and just need a reference to meet certain editorial standards:
Those are statements that need sources. I would also benefit greatly if anyone knows why or how
Methodism became so popular in Cornwall. I read somewhere it had some connection with mining communities in
South Wales, but can't seem to hit the spot. --
Jza84 |
Talk
18:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
I think the most authoritative source on Cornwall's climate would be this, which doesn't use the word "subtropical" so far as I can see, perhaps because there appears to be several alternative definitions of the term. The WP article on Subtropics states "the far Southwestern fringes of Cornwall in the United Kingdom meet both requirements [for meeting the definition of "subtropical"] —6 °C average in the coldest month and eight months with the average above 10 °C (specifically the Isles of Scilly)....And it is not surprising therefore that there are real palm trees growing in Devon and Cornwall." - but is unreferenced. This site states "Newquay has a maritime subtropical climate but don’t let this trick you; subtropical does not mean ‘almost tropical’. Newquay receives all four seasons and no extremes of temperature, but the winters are much milder than elsewhere in the UK." - but probably does not meet WP:RS. Ghmyrtle ( talk) 23:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
This is typical tourist marketing - don't believe everything you hear. The IOM, Channel Islands, Bournemouth, Poole etc all make such claims. Usually they use pictures of so called "palm trees", which are planted throughout the UK in such tourist resorts. In fact, they are nothing of the sort, but cabbage trees, a relative of the lily, which grow up mountains in NZ, and can be found as far north as 'sunny' Plockton and Rothesay in the Highlands (both of which are very damp, despite being pretty).-- MacRusgail ( talk) 15:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way, a casual look at the 'subtropical' map shows that even Galicia, the Basque Country and the vast majority of France don't make it. I don't believe that Cornwall is warmer than northern Spain.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 15:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm unsure about certain key facts about the Cornish Stannary Courts and Parliaments. I understand that they were given a charter by King John (saying what I don't know) and another by King Edward I. I know the last time the court/parliament (?) met was 1752. I know they met to discuss tin mining in Cornwall and I know that there is a Revived Cornish Stannary Parliament. Beyond that, I'm a little lost. Can anybody clear this up as the current Stannary Courts and Parliaments article is, well, not great. I also need a reference or two (if not a rewrite) for the following:
Stannary Courts administered equity for Cornwall's tin-miners and tin mining interests, with executive authority vested in the Lord Warden of the Stannaries. Established by a charter by King John of England, Cornwall's tin mines had major economic significance for England in the Middle Ages; Stannators were required to uphold and represent "just and ancient customs and liberties" through special laws and legal exemptions. As the tin mines of Cornwall lost their economic importance during the 18th and 19th centuries, so the Stannary institutions lost political power.
Can anybody help? -- Jza84 | Talk 15:54, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for the barrage of new headings of late, I'm hoping this is my last for some time. Just a note that a rewrite of this article is now ready as a final draft here. If you have any final concerns or suggestions before it goes live, then, well, now is the time please. I can assure readers however that the content is 100% verifiable, if nothing else. :) -- Jza84 | Talk 01:45, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
A few points, the England ref at the beginning is contentitious, secondly, the overseas section should include Mexico, there are a couple of towns with Cornish links there. The rugby section could be stronger, as this is one of the main focusses of Cornish identity/nationalism, with all the complications this involves - see here. There is also an academic study of Cornish rugby and identity, but I don't have the link to hand.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 15:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC) p.s. WP Ethnic Groups doesn't seem to do very much.
As stated elsewhere, MK are only the tip of the iceberg. Cornish nationalism/patriotism doesn't begin or end with them. Andrew George MP, a Lib Dem, for example qualifies well as a kind of Cornish nationalist. And I've already mentioned the rugby. The flags are another manifestation of this (although many people in English counties have started flying flags more recently - which muddies the water)
Also, the Kilbrandon Commission stated that Cornwall was in a unique position, and there are also other legal arguments for saying this. That said, the British constitutional set up is contradictory and geared towards suiting certain people are certain times. Traditionally there hasn't been a proper attempt to sort out the mess (unlike France, the USA etc), rather the various documents have all sunk to the bottom of the pile, like layers of sludge at the bottom of a river.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 16:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
"only 7% saw the need to clasify themselves as Cornish." - this is highly misleading. In actual fact, the census operated on an opt-in basis, rather than supplying a tick box, as for other groups. If one has an opt-in for Scottish, Welsh or English, rather than a tick box, you'd find the figures would be similarly much lower. This figure also masks the true number of people who would consider themselves Cornish and British, or even Cornish and English, but with a distinct identity.-- MacRusgail ( talk) 17:48, 8 September 2009 (UTC)