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Serious question - do you guys actually think Cornwall could make it as an independent state? It's said in several places on the Wiki that it's one of the poorest regions of the UK, so how is cutting ties to England/Britain going to help? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.38.32.84 ( talk) 13:36, 9th February 2007
Deadline to sign up by: 1st January 2011 639 people signed up, 361 more were needed, petition failed to meet target
A protest at which ten people showed up. The event went ahead as planned.
The webpage cannot be found
last updated 2008
Another dead link.
People tend to forget that before the British government started slapping extra taxes onto the tin miners, halting our china clay production and before the Duke decided he'd use all of our money externaly, we we're one of the richest places on earth. If we were given greater control of our nation then we would quickly be able to support ourselves once more. Fletch 2002 ( talk) 01:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that it is worth typing in the bit from the famous genetics book "The Blood of the Isles" on this issue. In it, the author says that the Celts may have never existed as a tribe. The Celtic language group was identified, and some people then got the idea that these people must have all been part of the same race initially. The Cornish language is actually just a version of Welsh that has altered over time.
I would put up this commentary right now if I had the book on me. As it happens, I can't even remember what the author's name is. Once I find the book, I'll find the relevant page references. Until then, just thought that I'd put it up here in case anyone has any strong objections. Epa101 21:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Bryan Sykes was the author. Epa101 21:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Welsh and Cornish (and Breton etc) are both versions of a former British Celtic language. They have diverged over time due to geographical isolation and other factors. Cornish is not "just a version of Welsh". Mrscruffy 18:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
A nation does not exist in the blood of people but rather in culture, production (artefacts), territoriality and time. It seems that Cornwall exhibits these characteristics: Cornish people have a common original language and share some specific traditions (culture), they have been living on a specific territory for a long time, and they have produced some works of art, an original architecture and some literature (artefacts). 207.134.187.165
I don't understand why everyone assumes these people are talking about "race"/genetics. Celtic identity (infact, cultural identity in general) is not about those irrelevent factors, it's about language and culture. It's almost as if people are wilfully misinterprating Celtic nationalism and related movements as being racially motivated in order to both discredit them and portray the supporters as racists. -- 86.144.101.168 ( talk) 13:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the references in the article to this curious work. With all due respect to the author of said book, any attempt to include this information would be outdated since the matter has been resolved (in 2014 - see minority status articles). Any indication to the contrary, or infact any "racial" distinctions such as this is inflammatory in its nature. It could also be considered racist by members of said minority group. A Guy into Books ( talk) 21:31, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
This talk page was becoming rather long, and many comments had not been signed. I have added {{unsigned}} to those comments which needed it, and have also archived all threads which did not shew any activity this year (2008). I have also added a "talk page header", which includes a link to the archive, and will automatically generate a link to further archives as they are added in the future. DuncanHill ( talk) 10:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
There is a problem with the Treaty of Bretigny here in relation to Conrnwall.Please see my talk page where I have pasted the original text and pointed out what is wrong- Any additions or suggestions welcome. Brythonek ( talk) 14:29, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I have some big concerns about this new section which has been added or is being expanded today.
" It is not within the scope of this sub-article to discuss the rights and wrongs of Cornwall and her history but rather to give instances of genuine anti-Cornish sentiments expressed in order to be able to approach the issues of Cornwall in a more rounded fashion. "
This is an unacceptable way of describing something on wikipedia. I would of undone the whole edits but i dont want to be accused of trying to hide something or pushing a point of view. Id like to know what others feel about this matter. Thanks BritishWatcher ( talk) 14:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 17:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
e/c I agree (twice in one year BritishWatcher, it's becoming a habit). Recent additions to this article are unsourced and some are possibly libelous (the Carrick District Council 'quote' for example). I request that the originator engage here and agree that any unsourced information will be removed to a sandbox until it can be verified. Otherwise, I suggest that we ask for admin involvement, and soon. Daicaregos ( talk) 14:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 17:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 17:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello guys- Right the Anti-Cornish issues have been resolved I am glad to say. Sorry if there was any "fiction" on my part.
I have included an official description of the Duchy of Cornwall here, taken from the Duchy of Conrwall homepage, and referenced. I am sure that this cannot possibly be disputed- and in the spirit of fairness I feel that the "official" position on the Duhcy should be included in ANY discussion of these issues. If anyone would like to edit more/add please do.
I would also like to ask, on Decairagos' advice too, if there be any case for a separate article discussing the disputed status of the Duchy. I have a lot of sourced material and I feel it would overload the page to include it all here---
Please let me know what you think, here or on my talk page. Much appreciated. Brythonek ( talk) 10:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Moved section. Daicaregos ( talk) 10:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 00:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Cornish self-government movement →
Cornish nationalism — This article should be renamed "Cornish nationalism". This is because the article's focus is not just the autonomy/devolution movement in Cornwall - it also deals with culture, identity, ethnicity, and constitutional issues in Cornwall, all of which can come under the umbrella term of "Cornish nationalism". This would also make it in line with articles for other nationalisms in Europe, e.g. Breton, Welsh, Catalan etc. --
Joowwww (
talk)
15:50, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
The beggining of this article treats Cornwall as if it is not part of England, using phrases such as 'seperate from that of England' or 'seperate from that of English people'. I tried changing this to 'seperate from that of the rest of England', which I think is perfectly reasonable and neutral. Cornwall is undeniably part of England (And I don't mean this in an offensive or nationalist way, it is simply an encyclopediac - I think thats how you spell it - fact) so can you not try to argue that it isn't. If you have any reasons for why this is unjust then please say, but stop changing it without giving reasons. 82.1.157.16 ( talk) 20:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Have changed "In the United Kingdom", to " England". I have never seen a more obvious attempt on wikipedia to appease a separatist movement. Cornwall is part of England. This Cornish nationalism has a beef with that fact. To try and gloss over it by putting "In the United Kingdom" in the first sentence is silly. BritishWatcher ( talk) 09:26, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
The map of Britain highlights the County of Cornwall. The map should highlight the Duchy of Cornwall. Doesn't the Duchy include Devon? Randall Bart Talk 03:51, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
The current map shows the Isle of Man and Channel Islands as though they are part of the UK, which they are not. Should a different map be used? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 10:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that a fairly important missing part of this issue is the number of Cornish people that actually identify with a Cornish national identity, rather than an English one. Could we include some polls on this? 80.231.172.154 ( talk) 09:42, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
One editor has been changing the wording of the lead from:
Cornish nationalism is an umbrella term that refers to a cultural, political and social movement based in Cornwall, the most southwestern part of the island of Great Britain, which has for centuries been administered as part of England, within the United Kingdom.
to:
Cornish nationalism is an umbrella term that refers to a cultural, political and social movement based in the county of Cornwall, the most southwestern part of England, which has for centuries been administered as part of England, within the United Kingdom.
The initial wording has stood since 2010, so the correct procedure is to leave it at that version until a consensus is achieved here to change it. I disagree with the proposed change. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 12:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Cornish nationalism is an umbrella term that refers to a cultural, political and social movement that views Cornwall as a entity distinct from the country of England.
There's another problem with the lead sentence as it stands. It does not give a description of what Cornish Nationalism is actually is about it simply states that it is based in Cornwall then launches into a convoluted explanation of Cornwall's location and political status. It is pretty clear that a movement about Cornwall is going to be based in Cornwall. The view of the movement is the most important fact about it and yet a concise description is lacking in the lead sentence. This can be rectified by ending the sentence with "that views Cornwall as a distinct entity within the United Kingdom". As an added bonus the location is also implied. Eckerslike ( talk) 14:03, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
That case is cited in exactly the way I'm talking about and probably given far too much prominence here on WP (and the page itself was written incredibly misleadingly until a year or so ago) – I know of no serious legal analysis that gives it the import some claim it has. As for some of the other points: Cornwall Council may not use the term county in their own title – and actually they're not alone by any means in doing that – but I don't think they deny that they administer one; the Kilbrandon commission is quite explicit in referring to Cornwall as a county in its own text, and one that has been "governed as part of England for a thousand years", and only suggested occasional use of the duchy terminology in certain contexts and on account of the royal relationship (plus, as usual with royal commissions, the recommendation was never taken up anyway); and the government seem to be quite explicit on the point in response to those questions from Andrew George. I'm not disputing the murky nature of the tax affairs of the Duchy of Cornwall, but that's a genuinely separate point, even if it has put the spotlight on the estate, and one of even less relevance of course to Cornwall per se. I've never seen the results of a formal medical examination, analysis or statement that confirms George W Bush is a human being and not a lizard. That doesn't mean it's an open question, it means no one takes the suggestion seriously in the first place. This is real Passport to Pimlico stuff – and, of course, is far from being the only or main thread or argument of any nationalist position. N-HH talk/ edits 09:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
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There is an undeniable lack of neutrality in this article. One might expect this given the emotional nature of the subject and the hawkish uber-vigilant editors associated with its promotion (Reversions made within milliseconds). However, this is an encyclopedia, not a propaganda mouthpiece, and as such due weight needs to be given in the article to opposition to Cornish nationalism within Cornwall, which polls would tend to indicate is the majority view, not least from the majority of people who consider themselves Englishmen and women living in the county of Cornwall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.78.99.222 ( talk) 15:46, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
A lot of this article is confused because it covers too many topics. Cornish Nationalism, Cornish national identity, Cornish ethnicity, and Cornish Devolution are separate topics. While they do in some way overlap, i feel that including them together is creating an overly political article. Additionally this article is not taking into account the two sides of this whole issue. A considerable amount of effort is being put into finding a neutral standpoint, but this has not been achieved. Several parts of the article are also incorrect or outdated. A Guy into Books ( talk) 13:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Totally agree. This article assumes there is some support within the general population of Cornwall for the nationalist agenda. However, time after time at the ballot box, in polls, and online, they are rejected.
Serpren (
talk)
00:16, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Cornish independence is covered here too. A Guy into Books ( talk) 21:26, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
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I propose that this page is split into several articles. so I would create some more articles to split certain aspects such as independence and social identity from the nationalist movement. A Guy into Books ( talk) 09:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
We already have Cornish People so Cornish identity is unlikely to pass muster. Cornish independence is a topic with enough history and established sources to merit a good article, it has the norman time period, then 4 separate invasions of 'England' (these were a while back) the issues in the 1700's, the issues in the and some issues in the 1970-80's. all of which could easily make an article without any of the pseudo-current nationalist idealism that this has in it.
Also an article on cornish devolution would be nice. Its currently a redirect here but could easily have its own article. Α Guy into Books™ § ( Message) - 19:17, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Cornish nationalism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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Serious question - do you guys actually think Cornwall could make it as an independent state? It's said in several places on the Wiki that it's one of the poorest regions of the UK, so how is cutting ties to England/Britain going to help? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.38.32.84 ( talk) 13:36, 9th February 2007
Deadline to sign up by: 1st January 2011 639 people signed up, 361 more were needed, petition failed to meet target
A protest at which ten people showed up. The event went ahead as planned.
The webpage cannot be found
last updated 2008
Another dead link.
People tend to forget that before the British government started slapping extra taxes onto the tin miners, halting our china clay production and before the Duke decided he'd use all of our money externaly, we we're one of the richest places on earth. If we were given greater control of our nation then we would quickly be able to support ourselves once more. Fletch 2002 ( talk) 01:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I think that it is worth typing in the bit from the famous genetics book "The Blood of the Isles" on this issue. In it, the author says that the Celts may have never existed as a tribe. The Celtic language group was identified, and some people then got the idea that these people must have all been part of the same race initially. The Cornish language is actually just a version of Welsh that has altered over time.
I would put up this commentary right now if I had the book on me. As it happens, I can't even remember what the author's name is. Once I find the book, I'll find the relevant page references. Until then, just thought that I'd put it up here in case anyone has any strong objections. Epa101 21:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Bryan Sykes was the author. Epa101 21:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Welsh and Cornish (and Breton etc) are both versions of a former British Celtic language. They have diverged over time due to geographical isolation and other factors. Cornish is not "just a version of Welsh". Mrscruffy 18:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
A nation does not exist in the blood of people but rather in culture, production (artefacts), territoriality and time. It seems that Cornwall exhibits these characteristics: Cornish people have a common original language and share some specific traditions (culture), they have been living on a specific territory for a long time, and they have produced some works of art, an original architecture and some literature (artefacts). 207.134.187.165
I don't understand why everyone assumes these people are talking about "race"/genetics. Celtic identity (infact, cultural identity in general) is not about those irrelevent factors, it's about language and culture. It's almost as if people are wilfully misinterprating Celtic nationalism and related movements as being racially motivated in order to both discredit them and portray the supporters as racists. -- 86.144.101.168 ( talk) 13:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the references in the article to this curious work. With all due respect to the author of said book, any attempt to include this information would be outdated since the matter has been resolved (in 2014 - see minority status articles). Any indication to the contrary, or infact any "racial" distinctions such as this is inflammatory in its nature. It could also be considered racist by members of said minority group. A Guy into Books ( talk) 21:31, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
This talk page was becoming rather long, and many comments had not been signed. I have added {{unsigned}} to those comments which needed it, and have also archived all threads which did not shew any activity this year (2008). I have also added a "talk page header", which includes a link to the archive, and will automatically generate a link to further archives as they are added in the future. DuncanHill ( talk) 10:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
There is a problem with the Treaty of Bretigny here in relation to Conrnwall.Please see my talk page where I have pasted the original text and pointed out what is wrong- Any additions or suggestions welcome. Brythonek ( talk) 14:29, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
I have some big concerns about this new section which has been added or is being expanded today.
" It is not within the scope of this sub-article to discuss the rights and wrongs of Cornwall and her history but rather to give instances of genuine anti-Cornish sentiments expressed in order to be able to approach the issues of Cornwall in a more rounded fashion. "
This is an unacceptable way of describing something on wikipedia. I would of undone the whole edits but i dont want to be accused of trying to hide something or pushing a point of view. Id like to know what others feel about this matter. Thanks BritishWatcher ( talk) 14:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 17:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
e/c I agree (twice in one year BritishWatcher, it's becoming a habit). Recent additions to this article are unsourced and some are possibly libelous (the Carrick District Council 'quote' for example). I request that the originator engage here and agree that any unsourced information will be removed to a sandbox until it can be verified. Otherwise, I suggest that we ask for admin involvement, and soon. Daicaregos ( talk) 14:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 17:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Brythonek ( talk) 17:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello guys- Right the Anti-Cornish issues have been resolved I am glad to say. Sorry if there was any "fiction" on my part.
I have included an official description of the Duchy of Cornwall here, taken from the Duchy of Conrwall homepage, and referenced. I am sure that this cannot possibly be disputed- and in the spirit of fairness I feel that the "official" position on the Duhcy should be included in ANY discussion of these issues. If anyone would like to edit more/add please do.
I would also like to ask, on Decairagos' advice too, if there be any case for a separate article discussing the disputed status of the Duchy. I have a lot of sourced material and I feel it would overload the page to include it all here---
Please let me know what you think, here or on my talk page. Much appreciated. Brythonek ( talk) 10:40, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Moved section. Daicaregos ( talk) 10:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
The result of the move request was page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 00:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Cornish self-government movement →
Cornish nationalism — This article should be renamed "Cornish nationalism". This is because the article's focus is not just the autonomy/devolution movement in Cornwall - it also deals with culture, identity, ethnicity, and constitutional issues in Cornwall, all of which can come under the umbrella term of "Cornish nationalism". This would also make it in line with articles for other nationalisms in Europe, e.g. Breton, Welsh, Catalan etc. --
Joowwww (
talk)
15:50, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
The beggining of this article treats Cornwall as if it is not part of England, using phrases such as 'seperate from that of England' or 'seperate from that of English people'. I tried changing this to 'seperate from that of the rest of England', which I think is perfectly reasonable and neutral. Cornwall is undeniably part of England (And I don't mean this in an offensive or nationalist way, it is simply an encyclopediac - I think thats how you spell it - fact) so can you not try to argue that it isn't. If you have any reasons for why this is unjust then please say, but stop changing it without giving reasons. 82.1.157.16 ( talk) 20:37, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
Have changed "In the United Kingdom", to " England". I have never seen a more obvious attempt on wikipedia to appease a separatist movement. Cornwall is part of England. This Cornish nationalism has a beef with that fact. To try and gloss over it by putting "In the United Kingdom" in the first sentence is silly. BritishWatcher ( talk) 09:26, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
The map of Britain highlights the County of Cornwall. The map should highlight the Duchy of Cornwall. Doesn't the Duchy include Devon? Randall Bart Talk 03:51, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
The current map shows the Isle of Man and Channel Islands as though they are part of the UK, which they are not. Should a different map be used? Ghmyrtle ( talk) 10:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me that a fairly important missing part of this issue is the number of Cornish people that actually identify with a Cornish national identity, rather than an English one. Could we include some polls on this? 80.231.172.154 ( talk) 09:42, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
One editor has been changing the wording of the lead from:
Cornish nationalism is an umbrella term that refers to a cultural, political and social movement based in Cornwall, the most southwestern part of the island of Great Britain, which has for centuries been administered as part of England, within the United Kingdom.
to:
Cornish nationalism is an umbrella term that refers to a cultural, political and social movement based in the county of Cornwall, the most southwestern part of England, which has for centuries been administered as part of England, within the United Kingdom.
The initial wording has stood since 2010, so the correct procedure is to leave it at that version until a consensus is achieved here to change it. I disagree with the proposed change. Bretonbanquet ( talk) 12:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Cornish nationalism is an umbrella term that refers to a cultural, political and social movement that views Cornwall as a entity distinct from the country of England.
There's another problem with the lead sentence as it stands. It does not give a description of what Cornish Nationalism is actually is about it simply states that it is based in Cornwall then launches into a convoluted explanation of Cornwall's location and political status. It is pretty clear that a movement about Cornwall is going to be based in Cornwall. The view of the movement is the most important fact about it and yet a concise description is lacking in the lead sentence. This can be rectified by ending the sentence with "that views Cornwall as a distinct entity within the United Kingdom". As an added bonus the location is also implied. Eckerslike ( talk) 14:03, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
That case is cited in exactly the way I'm talking about and probably given far too much prominence here on WP (and the page itself was written incredibly misleadingly until a year or so ago) – I know of no serious legal analysis that gives it the import some claim it has. As for some of the other points: Cornwall Council may not use the term county in their own title – and actually they're not alone by any means in doing that – but I don't think they deny that they administer one; the Kilbrandon commission is quite explicit in referring to Cornwall as a county in its own text, and one that has been "governed as part of England for a thousand years", and only suggested occasional use of the duchy terminology in certain contexts and on account of the royal relationship (plus, as usual with royal commissions, the recommendation was never taken up anyway); and the government seem to be quite explicit on the point in response to those questions from Andrew George. I'm not disputing the murky nature of the tax affairs of the Duchy of Cornwall, but that's a genuinely separate point, even if it has put the spotlight on the estate, and one of even less relevance of course to Cornwall per se. I've never seen the results of a formal medical examination, analysis or statement that confirms George W Bush is a human being and not a lizard. That doesn't mean it's an open question, it means no one takes the suggestion seriously in the first place. This is real Passport to Pimlico stuff – and, of course, is far from being the only or main thread or argument of any nationalist position. N-HH talk/ edits 09:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
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There is an undeniable lack of neutrality in this article. One might expect this given the emotional nature of the subject and the hawkish uber-vigilant editors associated with its promotion (Reversions made within milliseconds). However, this is an encyclopedia, not a propaganda mouthpiece, and as such due weight needs to be given in the article to opposition to Cornish nationalism within Cornwall, which polls would tend to indicate is the majority view, not least from the majority of people who consider themselves Englishmen and women living in the county of Cornwall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.78.99.222 ( talk) 15:46, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
A lot of this article is confused because it covers too many topics. Cornish Nationalism, Cornish national identity, Cornish ethnicity, and Cornish Devolution are separate topics. While they do in some way overlap, i feel that including them together is creating an overly political article. Additionally this article is not taking into account the two sides of this whole issue. A considerable amount of effort is being put into finding a neutral standpoint, but this has not been achieved. Several parts of the article are also incorrect or outdated. A Guy into Books ( talk) 13:49, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
Totally agree. This article assumes there is some support within the general population of Cornwall for the nationalist agenda. However, time after time at the ballot box, in polls, and online, they are rejected.
Serpren (
talk)
00:16, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Cornish independence is covered here too. A Guy into Books ( talk) 21:26, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 07:13, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
I propose that this page is split into several articles. so I would create some more articles to split certain aspects such as independence and social identity from the nationalist movement. A Guy into Books ( talk) 09:20, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
We already have Cornish People so Cornish identity is unlikely to pass muster. Cornish independence is a topic with enough history and established sources to merit a good article, it has the norman time period, then 4 separate invasions of 'England' (these were a while back) the issues in the 1700's, the issues in the and some issues in the 1970-80's. all of which could easily make an article without any of the pseudo-current nationalist idealism that this has in it.
Also an article on cornish devolution would be nice. Its currently a redirect here but could easily have its own article. Α Guy into Books™ § ( Message) - 19:17, 13 September 2017 (UTC)