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This page has a comprehensive history of the ILR School that should be incorporated into this article. — Eustress talk 07:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the recent change of the name of the article from Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations to ILR School. I reviewed the guidelines at WP:TITLE and I think either name could be argued for. In particular, it seems that the criteria "Common name" and "Conciseness" are generally weighted heavily. See below for my take on the two names vis a vis some of the criteria:
Criterion | Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations |
ILR School | Cornell University ILR School |
---|---|---|---|
Common name | Fair | Good | Good |
Conciseness | Poor | Very good | Good |
Recognizability | Very good | Fair | Good |
Naturalness | Good | Good | Good |
Precision | Very good | Fair | Good |
Consistency | Very good | Fair | Good |
The main thing I dislike about the long form is its poor concision, and the main thing I dislike about the short form is that it's imprecise. Particularly bad is that it is inconsistent with Cornell University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, Cornell University College of Architecture, Art, and Planning, Cornell University College of Arts and Sciences, Cornell University College of Engineering, Cornell University School of Hotel Administration, Cornell University College of Human Ecology, Cornell University Graduate School, Cornell Law School, Weill Cornell Medical College of Cornell University, Weill Cornell Graduate School of Medical Sciences, Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine, and New York State College of Forestry at Cornell, all of which include "Cornell" in their titles. Note that there is an exception in Johnson Graduate School of Management, though. I'm also not sure why eustress ( talk · contribs) removed the sourced prose clarifying that "The ILR School" is not the legal name of the school, but is rather an ad-hoc branding strategy. — Bill Price ( nyb) 01:16, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia must follow the facts, regardless of what a PR man wants. I had reservations when we first moved the article form New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations. The reason given was that the article title starting with Cornell would be easier for users to find. However, since then, the business school article has been renamed "Johnson Graduate School of Management" So, if it is permissible to have an article reflect the official name of a school (as well as its major benefactor) I would vote to move this back to "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell" Racepacket ( talk) 00:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 09:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Cornell University ILR School →
New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations — There is no agreement as to what name to use for this article, so me might as well go with the actual official name. See NYS Education Law § 5715.
Racepacket (
talk)
01:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Criterion | Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations |
ILR School | Cornell University ILR School |
New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations (per Racepacket) |
New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations (per Notyourbroom) |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Common name | Fair | Good | Good | Good | Poor |
Conciseness | Poor | Very good | Good | Fair | Poor |
Recognizability | Very good | Fair | Good | Very good | Fair |
Naturalness | Good | Good | Good | Good | Fair |
Precision | Very good | Fair | Good | Very good | Very good |
Consistency | Very good | Fair | Good | Very good | ? (Which articles is it consistent with?) |
The name also recognizes the fact that the school is a unit of both Cornell University and the State University of New York at the same time. Racepacket ( talk) 01:26, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
The article history is instructive. It started as New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations on April 1, 2004. It was moved to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations on July 21, 2006. It was moved to ILR School on December 12, 2010, and then to Cornell University ILR School on December 13. I don't think that there is any long-standing consensus for dropping the words "Industrial and Labor Relations" from the title. The ILR disamb page shows how many other meaning those letters have in the general public. Other similar schools spell out the name, for example, UIUC Institute of Labor and Industrial Relations. Other statutory college articles also spell out their subject matter, see New York State College of Ceramics and State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry. Racepacket ( talk) 01:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC) WP:TITLE says, "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed. If it has never been stable, or unstable for a long time, and no consensus can be reached on what the title should be, default to the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub." In this case, that would be New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations. Racepacket ( talk) 01:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I have still been unable to find any independent secondary sources that the "rebranding" has gained widespread acceptance. There are thousands of graduates with diplomas hanging on their walls saying "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations," so there is quite a bit of inertia on the naming front. While it is obvious that the website has been "rebranded," there is no indication that it has gained traction in everyday life, particularly since the official name of the school is unchanged. Racepacket ( talk) 13:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Please check out this new Google tool which seraches a database of many books: ILR vs Industrial and Labor Relations It shows that ILR had a widespread meaning independent of Industrial and Labor Relations long before the founding of the School. These other meanings are found on the ILR disamb. page. Thanks, Racepacket ( talk) 06:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Prior to the move to the current name, one of the reasons given was that the school's website did not even mention its own official name. We have now changed the website to use the full name at: http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/ and http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/ILRhistory.html. Racepacket ( talk) 04:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
The article states that the school "remains the only institution of higher education with a four-year undergraduate program focused on work and employment." It appears that the University of Minnesota offers both an undergraduate major and minor in Human Resources. http://www.carlsonschool.umn.edu/cms/Page5883.aspx. ( UM also offers a masters and PhD program.) Anyway, most other universities offer only master degrees in this area. E.g., http://hrlr.msu.edu/about/ and http://www.ilir.uiuc.edu/. It appears that many employers want someone with a masters degree as an entry into human resources/labor relations. It is not clear that people use their undergraduate degrees to enter this field and that a larger percentage of graduates go onto law school and then practice law in areas other than labor relations. Is the current wording of the article a bit misleading? Racepacket ( talk) 14:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Would a neutral administrator not involved in the current content dispute, please change the section to read:
The school was originally housed in quonset huts, but later it moved into buildings vacated by the New York State College of Veternary Medicine. The current campus comprises Ives Hall, and the Martin P. Catherwood Library, which is one of only two official depository libraries of the International Labour Organization (the other being the Library of Congress). It also has branches in Albany, Buffalo, New York City and Rochester. [1] The school also occupies three linked buildings along Garden Avenue, which house research, conference center and extension. The buildings were built in 1911 for the Veternary College and are on a register of historic structures. From 2001-2004, the three buildings were extensively rennovated by New York State. [2] In 2008, the Extension Building was renamed Dolgen Hall. [3] In 1998, New York State replaced the portion of Ives Hall fronting along Tower Road with a new 110,605 sq ft building. [4] Recently, the State also rennovated the faculty wing of Ives Hall at a cost of $14 million. [5]
Thanks 06:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
References
I am trying to make the infoboxes of the statutory colleges consistent by adding NYS to the name parameters. We don't need to have "Cornell" in the name parameter because it is apparent from the logo image. So I would like this name parameter to be "NYS School of Industrial and Labor Relations" to reflect the name of the school.
I would like to omit the postgraduate student parameter, because we don't want to double-count students who are included in the Graduate School enrollment figure. Who are the 180 graduate students? Racepacket ( talk) 04:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
The following sentence was in the lead paragraph: "It also has more faculty dedicated to teaching and researching work, employment, and labor issues than any other educational institution."<ref name="About"/> But the source is hedged: "ILR has more full-time faculty involved in teaching and research that spans the broad range of work and employment disciplines than any other educational institution of its kind." Wikipedia left out "full time" and "any other educational institution of its kind." I am not sure how they are counting. It appears that the ILR webmaster is counting both the regular and extension faculty to get the total. I don't know if they included extension faculty of the unnamed other institutions that they are compairing. The comparison is undated and may no longer be valid. Racepacket ( talk) 05:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
The following sentence was in the faculty section, "The school claims to be home to the world's largest concentration of scholars in employment research and education." The source said, "ILR is home to the world's largest concentration of scholars in this interdisciplinary field." There is a bit of SYN here, but I am deleting it as puffing. This is impossible to verify. How do we define "this interdisciplinary field" and do we include Cornell scholars outside the school, for example in the economics department of the Arts College, labor law professors in the law school, and organizational behavior specialists in the business school? This is meaningless and unverifiable. Racepacket ( talk) 13:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I propose that List of deans of the ILR School be merged into Cornell University ILR School. I think that the list could easily be just a table in the history section of this article, and theschool article is of a reasonable size in which the merging of list of deans will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Racepacket ( talk) 12:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
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This page has a comprehensive history of the ILR School that should be incorporated into this article. — Eustress talk 07:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the recent change of the name of the article from Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations to ILR School. I reviewed the guidelines at WP:TITLE and I think either name could be argued for. In particular, it seems that the criteria "Common name" and "Conciseness" are generally weighted heavily. See below for my take on the two names vis a vis some of the criteria:
Criterion | Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations |
ILR School | Cornell University ILR School |
---|---|---|---|
Common name | Fair | Good | Good |
Conciseness | Poor | Very good | Good |
Recognizability | Very good | Fair | Good |
Naturalness | Good | Good | Good |
Precision | Very good | Fair | Good |
Consistency | Very good | Fair | Good |
The main thing I dislike about the long form is its poor concision, and the main thing I dislike about the short form is that it's imprecise. Particularly bad is that it is inconsistent with Cornell University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, Cornell University College of Architecture, Art, and Planning, Cornell University College of Arts and Sciences, Cornell University College of Engineering, Cornell University School of Hotel Administration, Cornell University College of Human Ecology, Cornell University Graduate School, Cornell Law School, Weill Cornell Medical College of Cornell University, Weill Cornell Graduate School of Medical Sciences, Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine, and New York State College of Forestry at Cornell, all of which include "Cornell" in their titles. Note that there is an exception in Johnson Graduate School of Management, though. I'm also not sure why eustress ( talk · contribs) removed the sourced prose clarifying that "The ILR School" is not the legal name of the school, but is rather an ad-hoc branding strategy. — Bill Price ( nyb) 01:16, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia must follow the facts, regardless of what a PR man wants. I had reservations when we first moved the article form New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations. The reason given was that the article title starting with Cornell would be easier for users to find. However, since then, the business school article has been renamed "Johnson Graduate School of Management" So, if it is permissible to have an article reflect the official name of a school (as well as its major benefactor) I would vote to move this back to "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell" Racepacket ( talk) 00:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no consensus. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk) 09:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Cornell University ILR School →
New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations — There is no agreement as to what name to use for this article, so me might as well go with the actual official name. See NYS Education Law § 5715.
Racepacket (
talk)
01:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Criterion | Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations |
ILR School | Cornell University ILR School |
New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations (per Racepacket) |
New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations (per Notyourbroom) |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Common name | Fair | Good | Good | Good | Poor |
Conciseness | Poor | Very good | Good | Fair | Poor |
Recognizability | Very good | Fair | Good | Very good | Fair |
Naturalness | Good | Good | Good | Good | Fair |
Precision | Very good | Fair | Good | Very good | Very good |
Consistency | Very good | Fair | Good | Very good | ? (Which articles is it consistent with?) |
The name also recognizes the fact that the school is a unit of both Cornell University and the State University of New York at the same time. Racepacket ( talk) 01:26, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
The article history is instructive. It started as New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations on April 1, 2004. It was moved to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations on July 21, 2006. It was moved to ILR School on December 12, 2010, and then to Cornell University ILR School on December 13. I don't think that there is any long-standing consensus for dropping the words "Industrial and Labor Relations" from the title. The ILR disamb page shows how many other meaning those letters have in the general public. Other similar schools spell out the name, for example, UIUC Institute of Labor and Industrial Relations. Other statutory college articles also spell out their subject matter, see New York State College of Ceramics and State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry. Racepacket ( talk) 01:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC) WP:TITLE says, "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed. If it has never been stable, or unstable for a long time, and no consensus can be reached on what the title should be, default to the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub." In this case, that would be New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations. Racepacket ( talk) 01:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I have still been unable to find any independent secondary sources that the "rebranding" has gained widespread acceptance. There are thousands of graduates with diplomas hanging on their walls saying "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations," so there is quite a bit of inertia on the naming front. While it is obvious that the website has been "rebranded," there is no indication that it has gained traction in everyday life, particularly since the official name of the school is unchanged. Racepacket ( talk) 13:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
Please check out this new Google tool which seraches a database of many books: ILR vs Industrial and Labor Relations It shows that ILR had a widespread meaning independent of Industrial and Labor Relations long before the founding of the School. These other meanings are found on the ILR disamb. page. Thanks, Racepacket ( talk) 06:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
Prior to the move to the current name, one of the reasons given was that the school's website did not even mention its own official name. We have now changed the website to use the full name at: http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/ and http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/ILRhistory.html. Racepacket ( talk) 04:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
The article states that the school "remains the only institution of higher education with a four-year undergraduate program focused on work and employment." It appears that the University of Minnesota offers both an undergraduate major and minor in Human Resources. http://www.carlsonschool.umn.edu/cms/Page5883.aspx. ( UM also offers a masters and PhD program.) Anyway, most other universities offer only master degrees in this area. E.g., http://hrlr.msu.edu/about/ and http://www.ilir.uiuc.edu/. It appears that many employers want someone with a masters degree as an entry into human resources/labor relations. It is not clear that people use their undergraduate degrees to enter this field and that a larger percentage of graduates go onto law school and then practice law in areas other than labor relations. Is the current wording of the article a bit misleading? Racepacket ( talk) 14:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
Would a neutral administrator not involved in the current content dispute, please change the section to read:
The school was originally housed in quonset huts, but later it moved into buildings vacated by the New York State College of Veternary Medicine. The current campus comprises Ives Hall, and the Martin P. Catherwood Library, which is one of only two official depository libraries of the International Labour Organization (the other being the Library of Congress). It also has branches in Albany, Buffalo, New York City and Rochester. [1] The school also occupies three linked buildings along Garden Avenue, which house research, conference center and extension. The buildings were built in 1911 for the Veternary College and are on a register of historic structures. From 2001-2004, the three buildings were extensively rennovated by New York State. [2] In 2008, the Extension Building was renamed Dolgen Hall. [3] In 1998, New York State replaced the portion of Ives Hall fronting along Tower Road with a new 110,605 sq ft building. [4] Recently, the State also rennovated the faculty wing of Ives Hall at a cost of $14 million. [5]
Thanks 06:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
References
I am trying to make the infoboxes of the statutory colleges consistent by adding NYS to the name parameters. We don't need to have "Cornell" in the name parameter because it is apparent from the logo image. So I would like this name parameter to be "NYS School of Industrial and Labor Relations" to reflect the name of the school.
I would like to omit the postgraduate student parameter, because we don't want to double-count students who are included in the Graduate School enrollment figure. Who are the 180 graduate students? Racepacket ( talk) 04:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
The following sentence was in the lead paragraph: "It also has more faculty dedicated to teaching and researching work, employment, and labor issues than any other educational institution."<ref name="About"/> But the source is hedged: "ILR has more full-time faculty involved in teaching and research that spans the broad range of work and employment disciplines than any other educational institution of its kind." Wikipedia left out "full time" and "any other educational institution of its kind." I am not sure how they are counting. It appears that the ILR webmaster is counting both the regular and extension faculty to get the total. I don't know if they included extension faculty of the unnamed other institutions that they are compairing. The comparison is undated and may no longer be valid. Racepacket ( talk) 05:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
The following sentence was in the faculty section, "The school claims to be home to the world's largest concentration of scholars in employment research and education." The source said, "ILR is home to the world's largest concentration of scholars in this interdisciplinary field." There is a bit of SYN here, but I am deleting it as puffing. This is impossible to verify. How do we define "this interdisciplinary field" and do we include Cornell scholars outside the school, for example in the economics department of the Arts College, labor law professors in the law school, and organizational behavior specialists in the business school? This is meaningless and unverifiable. Racepacket ( talk) 13:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I propose that List of deans of the ILR School be merged into Cornell University ILR School. I think that the list could easily be just a table in the history section of this article, and theschool article is of a reasonable size in which the merging of list of deans will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Racepacket ( talk) 12:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
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