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Yasi126.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
We already have the area under the Inquisition Category category, why should it also be under the Catholic Church Category and the Spanish Jewish History Category as the Inquisition is beneath both of them? (In fact beneath the Catholic history Category in the former case).
For such a small category this seems overkill.
I wrote this part of article because I think it is important to show how widely descendants of Jewish converso spread even outside of Iberia and former Iberian colonial empires. User: Tracadero, 3.16.07
Ii is important, Pavel, that there is no so called ethnic purity n the world. You never know who your ancestors were, all mixed. User: Fernando.
What Roth did Agricolae red? Read his book once again, pp. cited in Wiki's article. Concerning Ayala see Roth's book, Appendix C "Major Converso Families: Ayala, p. 333. User: BGH.
My response simple: no serious scholar outside of Spain take seriously genealogical works written in Spain whether they from the Middle Ages or from contemporary historians. The social pressure to purify their ancestry from Jewish or Muslim forebears was enormous during the older times and crude anti-Semtism is still strong in Spain. As one astute observer of our days Iberia (he is not Jewish) points out Portuguese a notion that they has an Jewish ancestry is a widely accepted fact, but Spaniards are in denial. I can cite long list of negative opinions about Spanish works and they expressed by non-Spanish historians who are not Jews or Muslims. Your argument that Pero de Ayala was not converso because he led Old Christian party is ignorant. There is a long list of leaders of so called Old Christians who were of converso descent. Among them infamous PACHECO who led anti-Converso Old Christian party under last Castilian kings before rise of Isabella. In genealogical terms there were not truly Old Christians in Iberia, the category was social, created by Spanish society. It is also widely claimed by many scholars now that Spanish society with its obsession about the purity of the blood was the first racist society in the world. Hence all the distortion of family origins. Once mostly nobility and city middle class were considered of converso origin or admixture. Recently researchers discover that converso widely intermixed also with the peasants. Lope de Vega who was considered in his time and until now a "pure Spaniard" provides the celebraty case. Another big problem with Spanish genealogy is that Spaniards in drastic difference with the rest of Europe trace family line both by male and female lines, accordingly, a man can marry into an old family and his children can claim the name of this family, so it is difficult to trace the family trees as we accustomed to do it by the male lines. An original family can be dead in male lines but their female descendants can claim name of the family and its entire family tree including its origin. BGH.
You made good point, every Spanish authors shall be judged according to his/her own merit Unfortunately and it is not mine opinion but of the most respected international scholars who are English, WASP Americans or Germans, that Spanish writings on genealogy have little value, even including contemporary scholars. I am in part of Valencian and Basque family background myself and I studied this issue in depths. Please do not engage in demagoguery comparing a few good apples with the rotten garden: highly reliable and internationally acclaimed as a source Lope de Barrientos is not in the same league with authors of forgeries. It is said a lot of about state of contemporary Spanish scholarship that converso background of great painter Velasquez was discovered recently by foreign researchers, including Japanese, not by Spaniards who gave him old aristocratic family tree. Once again, negative opinion about the state of Spanish family research and genealogy is not mine. Even if you argue agains such opinion, read for example Spanish biographies of Isabella and Ferdinand and try to find there any mentioning of their Jewish converso ancestry. You will not. But reference to it is almost a staple in foreign works about Isabella and Ferdinand. It is very sad that a capital work on conversos was wriiten by an American scholar Roth, not by a Spaniard.BGH.
I am leaving this discussion with my advise to Agricolae: when you read books which you do not like, try do not distort what their authors said, like you did with Roth. At beginning I thought you have problem with English language so you failed to understand and misquote the book. The problem is your world view. BGH.
(Note: BGH, twice you have significantly altered your previous contributions to this discussion after I responded, without any indication that this has been done, thereby changing the apparent context of my responses. Fixing typos is one thing, but if there is material you wish you would have said and someone else has already responded, then please add the new material as a separate entry. To do otherwise is to distort the discussion.
Agricolae
05:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC))
Guzman was a Moore not Hebrew. The Conversos or more Muslim Stop making up History. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.98.106.86 ( talk) 15:35, August 20, 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest the use of a different word from "pogrom" to denote persecution of the Jews of Iberia. Pogrom is an Eastern European word. I currently live in Lisbon, Portugal and I am studying this subject. I will attempt to find out what the word used here in Portugal would be. John B.
The subject of these two articles is the same, it's simply a matter of having two terms for the same thing. Also note that in both w:pt and w:es there is only one article under the title "New Christian", and "Converso" is just a redirect to "New Christian". EuTuga msg 00:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Our articles' explanations of the boundaries between all these terms is very poor and very unclear. Conversos means "The converted", " Marranos" means "Those who now eat pork" and then we also have " New Christians" as referred to above, All these terms started out as referring to both Iberian Jews and Muslims who had converted, but in modern writings may refer only to ex-Jews whilst " Moriscos" refers to ex-Muslims. So all the terms mean the same thing. See for example:
In the three wikipedia articles, none of this is clear and is very confusing for a reader - this needs to be tidied up. So my suggestion is (1) merge the articles, and (2) provide a better comparative explanation of the names.
Oncenawhile ( talk) 07:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
The article claims that conversos continued observing Jewish traditions. This can't be true regarding all the descendants of the actual converts (who are also conversos according to this article's definition), at least those who remained in Spain and Portugal.
Netanyahu in his Origins of the Inquisition in Fifteenth Century Spain goes even further and attempts to prove that the second-generation conversos retained almost none of Jewish practices. The article should describe the eventual assimilation of conversos and the existence of different opinions on how quickly it happened. Alæxis ¿question? 06:18, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
I believe this Wikipedia page should begin to expand on specific groups of Conversos who left Spain and Portugal to live in different parts of Europe, and to further elaborate on what their lives were like in those regions. A a new section should be created called “Conversos by Country,” and I will begin to add research and information specifically about Italian Conversos. I want to elaborate on the life of Jews who converted to Roman Catholicism in Spain and Portugal, who then immigrated to respective Italian cities in search for better life. All of the following information is derived from Renee Levine Melammed's book, A Question of Identity: Iberian Conversos in Historical Perspective, published by Oxford University Press in 2004.
I want to elaborate on examples of how Conversos were looked at with suspicion and harassment both in their old and new communities. I will begin my excerpt by talking about the general scope of Jews in Italy (30,000 Jews and 5,000-8,000 Conversos), then proceed to explain the life of Conversos in the three specific Italian cities that first openly accepted Conversos.
For the history of the city of Ferrara, I will ensure to reference what the Lettres Patentes that were issued by Duke Ercole II meant (in order to provide better background knowledge), and I will further explain why the plague in this city made many conversos relocate to Venice. Following this information, I will inform readers that Venice slowly became a center for conversos, describe what they did there, and how many of them struggled with their identities between their Christian and Jewish faiths.
The second part of the Italian Conversos hader will discuss conversos in Ancona who faced difficult lives living under the pope, and eventually fled to Ferrara in 1555. Portuguese conversos in Ancona were falsely misled that they were welcome to Ancona, by openly converting back to Judaism, then being overturned by the succeeding pope, Pope Paul IV. The conversos in Ancona faed traumatic emotional damage, and caused much skepticism among them when the duke granted a charter of residence in return for the conversos building up the city’s economy in 1558.
The third part will discuss the history of conversos in Venice. Venetian leaders were convinced to openly accept conversos becoming Jews because they recognized that if conversos were not welcome in Venice, they would take their successful trades to the country’s economic rival of Turkey. I will then proceed to explain the life of the majority Portuguese conversos in Venice.
If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. Yasi126 ( talk) 04:14, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
In Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_February_24#Category:New_Christians there is a proposal for merging Category:New Christians with Category:Conversos. Feel free to join the discussion. Marcocapelle ( talk) 08:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Sorry to re-open this, as i did with the "New Christian" category. I´m bringing it up here instead of edditing because I learned that this seems to be more controversial than I expected it to be. I ping the users I saw debate on the issue about new Christians to make sure things go smooth. @ Peterkingiron: @ BrownHairedGirl: @ Oculi: @ Marcocapelle: @ IZAC: I wanted to mention that:
"The majority of Spain's Jews converted to Christianity as a result of the pogroms in 1391." That issimply not true. Those riots were extrenely localized and brieph. Mostof Spain was unaffected, and most ofthe jews in the area didn´t convert but moved to Portugal to return after the civil war fueling it was over (check Peter the Cruel of Spain). Not to mention that "the majority of jews of Spain" didn´t live anywhere close to the riots. [1]
"Conversos who did not fully or genuinely embrace Catholicism, but continued to practise Judaism in secrecy were referred to as judaizantes ("Judaizers") and pejoratively as marranos ("swine")" . This, again, isn´t exactly true. Marranos wasn´t a term used for jews that didn´t convert. The term is derogatory, probably prior to the edict of Granada, and is used for jews and for conversos of jewish origin, not for jews who didn´t convert per se. It was also used to refer to the Spanish in the rest of Europe, because they had cohabitated with the jews for so long that they were asumed to be "poluted". It is slang, so the definition is hard to pinpoint, but it certainly didn´t refer to jews who didn´t conver especifically. It mainly refers to jews, and it was used on conversos, or on anyone who was presumed to have jewish origin, as a way to remark their jew origin. It was used, with some variations, as far as in Germany, but there the meaning changed to indicate "Spaniard", or Mediterranean in general terms. It is the closest to a racial term of the entire set (judeizante, converso, Anusim, New christian, etc...). As for "ocnversos who didn´t embrace catholicism" but still attempted to live in Spain permanently, they weren´t called anything, they were expelled.
Again, if sources are needed, I give the RAE dictionary itself,, [2], [3]. [4] Regarding the use of "marrano" to refer to the Spanish, from the top of my head I remember [5] or the complains of the Papa Alejandro VI. "Conversos played an important role in the 1520–1521 Revolt of the Comuneros, a popular uprising and civil war centered in the region of Castile against the imperial pretensions of the Spanish monarchy.[2] " That is likely to be not true either. It seems to have been a myth spread by the monarchy itself to justify it´s position. The moanrchy did create a lot of those, including that the COmuneros were influenced by demons and corrupt priests.This ideas didn´t go too far in Spain itself (initially) but did so in France and the germanic states, which was a good way of keeping population there from revolting too. It is found in the same sources that say that the comuneros were guided by witches and things along those lines. You can still find this idea in some sources (like the one cited, I assume, even though I don´t think a book about the inquisition in Mexico can go too in depth regarding the comuneros revolt), but it is higly disputed. I cite, [6] but I can probably find more. This has been a hot topic in the last 20 years.
PD: @ IZAC: , I´m usually very, very, very careful with my sources, and I tend to give too many sources, more than to few. You mentioned in the past that I gave non reliable sources, or none at all. Unless you mean "not in English" by "non reliable", I´m not sure of what you mean. I´d love to go over those sources with you and talk about them a little bit more. It seems that anything regarding judaism is particularly important for you, and I´m fien with trying to find sources in English if that´s part of the problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cateyed ( talk • contribs) 20:02, August 11, 2019 (UTC)
References
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Yasi126.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
We already have the area under the Inquisition Category category, why should it also be under the Catholic Church Category and the Spanish Jewish History Category as the Inquisition is beneath both of them? (In fact beneath the Catholic history Category in the former case).
For such a small category this seems overkill.
I wrote this part of article because I think it is important to show how widely descendants of Jewish converso spread even outside of Iberia and former Iberian colonial empires. User: Tracadero, 3.16.07
Ii is important, Pavel, that there is no so called ethnic purity n the world. You never know who your ancestors were, all mixed. User: Fernando.
What Roth did Agricolae red? Read his book once again, pp. cited in Wiki's article. Concerning Ayala see Roth's book, Appendix C "Major Converso Families: Ayala, p. 333. User: BGH.
My response simple: no serious scholar outside of Spain take seriously genealogical works written in Spain whether they from the Middle Ages or from contemporary historians. The social pressure to purify their ancestry from Jewish or Muslim forebears was enormous during the older times and crude anti-Semtism is still strong in Spain. As one astute observer of our days Iberia (he is not Jewish) points out Portuguese a notion that they has an Jewish ancestry is a widely accepted fact, but Spaniards are in denial. I can cite long list of negative opinions about Spanish works and they expressed by non-Spanish historians who are not Jews or Muslims. Your argument that Pero de Ayala was not converso because he led Old Christian party is ignorant. There is a long list of leaders of so called Old Christians who were of converso descent. Among them infamous PACHECO who led anti-Converso Old Christian party under last Castilian kings before rise of Isabella. In genealogical terms there were not truly Old Christians in Iberia, the category was social, created by Spanish society. It is also widely claimed by many scholars now that Spanish society with its obsession about the purity of the blood was the first racist society in the world. Hence all the distortion of family origins. Once mostly nobility and city middle class were considered of converso origin or admixture. Recently researchers discover that converso widely intermixed also with the peasants. Lope de Vega who was considered in his time and until now a "pure Spaniard" provides the celebraty case. Another big problem with Spanish genealogy is that Spaniards in drastic difference with the rest of Europe trace family line both by male and female lines, accordingly, a man can marry into an old family and his children can claim the name of this family, so it is difficult to trace the family trees as we accustomed to do it by the male lines. An original family can be dead in male lines but their female descendants can claim name of the family and its entire family tree including its origin. BGH.
You made good point, every Spanish authors shall be judged according to his/her own merit Unfortunately and it is not mine opinion but of the most respected international scholars who are English, WASP Americans or Germans, that Spanish writings on genealogy have little value, even including contemporary scholars. I am in part of Valencian and Basque family background myself and I studied this issue in depths. Please do not engage in demagoguery comparing a few good apples with the rotten garden: highly reliable and internationally acclaimed as a source Lope de Barrientos is not in the same league with authors of forgeries. It is said a lot of about state of contemporary Spanish scholarship that converso background of great painter Velasquez was discovered recently by foreign researchers, including Japanese, not by Spaniards who gave him old aristocratic family tree. Once again, negative opinion about the state of Spanish family research and genealogy is not mine. Even if you argue agains such opinion, read for example Spanish biographies of Isabella and Ferdinand and try to find there any mentioning of their Jewish converso ancestry. You will not. But reference to it is almost a staple in foreign works about Isabella and Ferdinand. It is very sad that a capital work on conversos was wriiten by an American scholar Roth, not by a Spaniard.BGH.
I am leaving this discussion with my advise to Agricolae: when you read books which you do not like, try do not distort what their authors said, like you did with Roth. At beginning I thought you have problem with English language so you failed to understand and misquote the book. The problem is your world view. BGH.
(Note: BGH, twice you have significantly altered your previous contributions to this discussion after I responded, without any indication that this has been done, thereby changing the apparent context of my responses. Fixing typos is one thing, but if there is material you wish you would have said and someone else has already responded, then please add the new material as a separate entry. To do otherwise is to distort the discussion.
Agricolae
05:14, 8 August 2007 (UTC))
Guzman was a Moore not Hebrew. The Conversos or more Muslim Stop making up History. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.98.106.86 ( talk) 15:35, August 20, 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest the use of a different word from "pogrom" to denote persecution of the Jews of Iberia. Pogrom is an Eastern European word. I currently live in Lisbon, Portugal and I am studying this subject. I will attempt to find out what the word used here in Portugal would be. John B.
The subject of these two articles is the same, it's simply a matter of having two terms for the same thing. Also note that in both w:pt and w:es there is only one article under the title "New Christian", and "Converso" is just a redirect to "New Christian". EuTuga msg 00:08, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Our articles' explanations of the boundaries between all these terms is very poor and very unclear. Conversos means "The converted", " Marranos" means "Those who now eat pork" and then we also have " New Christians" as referred to above, All these terms started out as referring to both Iberian Jews and Muslims who had converted, but in modern writings may refer only to ex-Jews whilst " Moriscos" refers to ex-Muslims. So all the terms mean the same thing. See for example:
In the three wikipedia articles, none of this is clear and is very confusing for a reader - this needs to be tidied up. So my suggestion is (1) merge the articles, and (2) provide a better comparative explanation of the names.
Oncenawhile ( talk) 07:57, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
The article claims that conversos continued observing Jewish traditions. This can't be true regarding all the descendants of the actual converts (who are also conversos according to this article's definition), at least those who remained in Spain and Portugal.
Netanyahu in his Origins of the Inquisition in Fifteenth Century Spain goes even further and attempts to prove that the second-generation conversos retained almost none of Jewish practices. The article should describe the eventual assimilation of conversos and the existence of different opinions on how quickly it happened. Alæxis ¿question? 06:18, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
I believe this Wikipedia page should begin to expand on specific groups of Conversos who left Spain and Portugal to live in different parts of Europe, and to further elaborate on what their lives were like in those regions. A a new section should be created called “Conversos by Country,” and I will begin to add research and information specifically about Italian Conversos. I want to elaborate on the life of Jews who converted to Roman Catholicism in Spain and Portugal, who then immigrated to respective Italian cities in search for better life. All of the following information is derived from Renee Levine Melammed's book, A Question of Identity: Iberian Conversos in Historical Perspective, published by Oxford University Press in 2004.
I want to elaborate on examples of how Conversos were looked at with suspicion and harassment both in their old and new communities. I will begin my excerpt by talking about the general scope of Jews in Italy (30,000 Jews and 5,000-8,000 Conversos), then proceed to explain the life of Conversos in the three specific Italian cities that first openly accepted Conversos.
For the history of the city of Ferrara, I will ensure to reference what the Lettres Patentes that were issued by Duke Ercole II meant (in order to provide better background knowledge), and I will further explain why the plague in this city made many conversos relocate to Venice. Following this information, I will inform readers that Venice slowly became a center for conversos, describe what they did there, and how many of them struggled with their identities between their Christian and Jewish faiths.
The second part of the Italian Conversos hader will discuss conversos in Ancona who faced difficult lives living under the pope, and eventually fled to Ferrara in 1555. Portuguese conversos in Ancona were falsely misled that they were welcome to Ancona, by openly converting back to Judaism, then being overturned by the succeeding pope, Pope Paul IV. The conversos in Ancona faed traumatic emotional damage, and caused much skepticism among them when the duke granted a charter of residence in return for the conversos building up the city’s economy in 1558.
The third part will discuss the history of conversos in Venice. Venetian leaders were convinced to openly accept conversos becoming Jews because they recognized that if conversos were not welcome in Venice, they would take their successful trades to the country’s economic rival of Turkey. I will then proceed to explain the life of the majority Portuguese conversos in Venice.
If anyone wants to comment on these changes, please let me know on this Talk Page or on my Talk Page. Yasi126 ( talk) 04:14, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
In Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_February_24#Category:New_Christians there is a proposal for merging Category:New Christians with Category:Conversos. Feel free to join the discussion. Marcocapelle ( talk) 08:08, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
Sorry to re-open this, as i did with the "New Christian" category. I´m bringing it up here instead of edditing because I learned that this seems to be more controversial than I expected it to be. I ping the users I saw debate on the issue about new Christians to make sure things go smooth. @ Peterkingiron: @ BrownHairedGirl: @ Oculi: @ Marcocapelle: @ IZAC: I wanted to mention that:
"The majority of Spain's Jews converted to Christianity as a result of the pogroms in 1391." That issimply not true. Those riots were extrenely localized and brieph. Mostof Spain was unaffected, and most ofthe jews in the area didn´t convert but moved to Portugal to return after the civil war fueling it was over (check Peter the Cruel of Spain). Not to mention that "the majority of jews of Spain" didn´t live anywhere close to the riots. [1]
"Conversos who did not fully or genuinely embrace Catholicism, but continued to practise Judaism in secrecy were referred to as judaizantes ("Judaizers") and pejoratively as marranos ("swine")" . This, again, isn´t exactly true. Marranos wasn´t a term used for jews that didn´t convert. The term is derogatory, probably prior to the edict of Granada, and is used for jews and for conversos of jewish origin, not for jews who didn´t convert per se. It was also used to refer to the Spanish in the rest of Europe, because they had cohabitated with the jews for so long that they were asumed to be "poluted". It is slang, so the definition is hard to pinpoint, but it certainly didn´t refer to jews who didn´t conver especifically. It mainly refers to jews, and it was used on conversos, or on anyone who was presumed to have jewish origin, as a way to remark their jew origin. It was used, with some variations, as far as in Germany, but there the meaning changed to indicate "Spaniard", or Mediterranean in general terms. It is the closest to a racial term of the entire set (judeizante, converso, Anusim, New christian, etc...). As for "ocnversos who didn´t embrace catholicism" but still attempted to live in Spain permanently, they weren´t called anything, they were expelled.
Again, if sources are needed, I give the RAE dictionary itself,, [2], [3]. [4] Regarding the use of "marrano" to refer to the Spanish, from the top of my head I remember [5] or the complains of the Papa Alejandro VI. "Conversos played an important role in the 1520–1521 Revolt of the Comuneros, a popular uprising and civil war centered in the region of Castile against the imperial pretensions of the Spanish monarchy.[2] " That is likely to be not true either. It seems to have been a myth spread by the monarchy itself to justify it´s position. The moanrchy did create a lot of those, including that the COmuneros were influenced by demons and corrupt priests.This ideas didn´t go too far in Spain itself (initially) but did so in France and the germanic states, which was a good way of keeping population there from revolting too. It is found in the same sources that say that the comuneros were guided by witches and things along those lines. You can still find this idea in some sources (like the one cited, I assume, even though I don´t think a book about the inquisition in Mexico can go too in depth regarding the comuneros revolt), but it is higly disputed. I cite, [6] but I can probably find more. This has been a hot topic in the last 20 years.
PD: @ IZAC: , I´m usually very, very, very careful with my sources, and I tend to give too many sources, more than to few. You mentioned in the past that I gave non reliable sources, or none at all. Unless you mean "not in English" by "non reliable", I´m not sure of what you mean. I´d love to go over those sources with you and talk about them a little bit more. It seems that anything regarding judaism is particularly important for you, and I´m fien with trying to find sources in English if that´s part of the problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cateyed ( talk • contribs) 20:02, August 11, 2019 (UTC)
References