![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
There is a long list of ex-ex-gay people in this article, but a short list of ex-gay people. Most of the ex-gay people are on the ex-gay page. To be balanced, shouldn't there just be a short summary of ex-ex-gay people on this page and put the longer, more detailed list on the ex-ex-gay page, as is done for ex-gay? I also noticed that the section on scandals in ex-gay camps is duplicated both on this page and on the ex-gay page. Could there be a summary here and leave the main section on the ex-gay page? Joshuajohanson ( talk) 22:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Moved from article. It's unclear what this means and what the legal effect of this is, and an English-language source should be provided if possible. I googled this but didn't find much.
In Germany all parties of the german Bundestag are against Conversion therapy. The german executive wrote, that Conversion therapy is dangerous and that homosexuality is no reason for conversion therapy. German Bundestag: Answer of CDU/SPD against conversion therapies
Fireplace ( talk) 14:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I included a paragraph in this article about the study that was conducted in the US and the results that found that reorientation therapy does make a change in the majority of patients. 75.181.81.251 ( talk) 00:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The following was removed from the lead: "a client interested in conversion therapy has the right to seek it." Why? It follows what all major medical organizations have said:
I see no evidence anywhere where a client does not have the right to get conversion therapy. I know from personal experience that you can legally get it from licensed psychologists with full approval of the APA. All they have ever done is officially express concern. The way it is currently written is misleading and either needs to be fixed or removed from Good Article Status. Joshuajohanson ( talk) 17:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that this has had a religious focus that makes some people upset. As someone not on the "religious right" I'm concerned with people's mental health. I don't think it's prejudicial to observe that when you can't stand to be in your body, there's something wrong. I'm interested in knowing any valid, honest information on any studies in the area of medication or non-religious psychotherapy for the psychological discomfort described in transgender disorder cases.Anybody got any data, minus political posturing? 75.165.34.215 ( talk) 14:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, it sounds like you are attempting to refer to Transsexualism. I've never heard of someone using conversion therapy to cure them. Read through that page and see if that answers your questions. Kairos ( talk) 13:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The article currently reads, 'Support for conversion therapy has even been found among gay activists. Camille Paglia, a lesbian activist, wrote in her book Tramps and Vamps, "Is the gay identity so fragile that it cannot bear the thought that some people may not wish to be gay? Sexuality is highly fluid and reversals are theoretically possible."[179]'
This gives a somewhat misleading idea of Paglia's views. She was criticising the extreme reaction of some gay people to some people's decision to try to change, not necessarily advocating conversion therapy. The reference to Paglia connects to an article on NARTH's website, which includes some quotes from Vamps and Tramps, notably not including this, on page 78: 'The injustice and impracticality are in trying to "convert" totally from homosexuality to heterosexuality, an opposition I think false.' The description of Paglia as an 'activist' is also rather off. Actually she is a literary scholar. Skoojal ( talk) 23:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
If conversion therapy were a pseudoscience, then the APA wouldn't allow physicians to practice it under their licenses, have presentations at their conferences on it, and publish guidelines on how to do it. The official statement by the APA includes the quote: "APA encourages and supports research in the NIMH and the academic research community to further determine "reparative" therapy's risks versus its benefits." The APA wouldn't support research into pseudo science. The only evidence of it being a pseudoscience is a paper written back in the 1990's by gay psychologist Dr. Haldeman, who has since written a paper supporting the right of a client to seek it professionally. Yes, they discourage it, warn of potential harms including a harmful environment and have found several faults in the premises surrounding reparative therapy, but that doesn't mean it is a pseudoscience. You need to find an official source saying mainstream organizations consider it a pseudoscience or remove it from the pseudoscience category. Joshuajohanson ( talk) 20:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) No one has presented any reliable sources showing that there's a consensus that conversion therapy as practiced by certain people today is pseudoscientific -- debates about licensing, etc., seem inapt -- the standard is WP:RS. However, there are reliable sources stating that conversion therapy, as practiced throughout most of its history, is pseudoscientific. That seems sufficient to put this article in the pseudoscience category for navigational purposes. (Joshua's response to this argument above doesn't really have much meat to it.) Fireplace ( talk) 20:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
(unidented)There are a lot of points to respond to. Let's see if I can get them all:
I think this article fails to point out the fact that most therapists actually practicing conversion therapy prefer the term reparative therapy. The article currently states "The label conversion is often preferred over reparative, as the latter suggests that same-sex desire is something which can or should be repaired." This is certainly true for opponents of conversion therapy. However, advocates of conversion therapy tend to use the term reparative therapy, which the article does not currently state. If you actuatly go to the NARTH website you will see that their literature tends to use this term. Nrswanson ( talk) 02:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
This article frequently uses the expression 'sexual activity' where plain old fashioned 'sex' would be better. I propose to replace 'sexual activity' with 'sex', which means the same thing and has eleven fewer letters. If there are no objections within the next two days, I will assume that no one disagrees or can suggest a reason why I shouldn't do this, and will go ahead. Skoojal ( talk) 08:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The first sentence of this article begins, 'Conversion therapy, sometimes called sexual reorientation therapy or reparative therapy...' This is not actually wrong - conversion therapy is sometimes called reparative therapy, just as it is called a lot of other things, but it is misleading, as has been pointed out numerous times. Elsewhere, the article says, 'Sometimes reparative therapy is misleadingly used synonymously with conversion therapy, though in fact it is only one type of conversion therapy.' This is true, and that's why the article should not begin the way it does. I have taken the liberty of changing the article without waiting for a discussion because it really was just wrong the way it was. Skoojal ( talk) 22:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
As a result of a recent edit war between myself and several other people, this article now uses an inconsistent mixture of terms to describe people attracted to the same sex. Sometimes 'homosexual' is used, and sometimes 'gay' or 'lesbian', with no apparent logic to the choices. Presumably this happened because those who were undoing my edits did it so quickly that they may not have realized exactly what they were doing - several cases of my changing 'gay' to 'homosexual' seem to have escaped notice. The article ought to use consistent terminology (I would prefer it if 'homosexual' was used throughout the article except in direct quotes, but I realize that I'm not going to get my way on this). My only request to whoever edits the article to resolve this situation is to at least not use the silly acronyms - GLBT, LGBT, GLB or whatever - where it can be avoided. They're a mutilation of the English language. Skoojal ( talk) 02:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The introduction contains a sentence that reads, 'Today's conversion therapists characterize the movement as offering the possibility of a choice to gay men and lesbian women who are unhappy with their sexuality.' I've already tried to point out what is wrong with this. Conversion therapists typically do not like or use terms like 'gay men', so this sentence effectively represents them as saying something that they do not say. The 'gay men' and 'lesbian women' who are not satisfied with their sexuality also generally do not use these terms or want them applied to themselves, so that's deeply unfair to them. This part of the article could be made fair without using the word 'homosexuals' by changing it to, 'Today's conversion therapists characterize the movement as offering the possibility of a choice to people who are unhappy with their attraction to the same sex.' I can't see why anyone should object to this. Skoojal ( talk) 02:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Part of the article reads, 'The label reparative originates from 1983 when research psychologist Elizabeth Moberly coined the term reparative drive to refer to male homosexuality itself, interpreting male–male desires...' This is expressed very badly. The term 'male-male' does not make sense in English. I am going to change this to something that actually makes sense - male homosexual desire, maybe; I'm open to other suggestions - in the near future in the absence of objections. Skoojal ( talk) 03:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In 1997, the APA sent out a resolution that included these words:
"Therefore be it resolved that APA affirms the following principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation:"
I summarized it by saying by saying they "affirmed the principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation." I really tried to keep the same wording, but it was removed with the paraphrase "this phrasing misleadingly makes it sound as though the APA has established principals within which it approves of conversion therapy -- that is not what the source says." Am I missing something? I am trying to keep the same wording as the document. Are you seeing something I'm not? Joshuajohanson ( talk) 07:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In 1997, the APA stated:
I have not seen any official statement refuting that. In 2004, the Counseling Psychologist published a paper saying "the topic of sexual-identity conflicts cannot be framed as it has been - that is, a war between opposing camps, with reparative therapists on one side and gay-affirmative therapists on the other. Ultimately, the client is the one who will be caught in the crossfire."
There is a debate in the field. Simple as that. Joshuajohanson ( talk) 07:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
What context do you think is necessary to put that quote in context. After he made the quote he reiterated some of the basic principles that have already been confirmed. Would this be enough context?
If not, what context do you want? Joshuajohanson ( talk) 07:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
"Gerald Koocher, while serving a one-year term as president of the American Psychological Association, said that "the APA has no conflict with psychologists who help those distressed by unwanted homosexual attraction." Advocates of conversion therapy called this statement "an amazing turnabout" and a positive development. But Koocher clarified his comments soon after, stating that "in a full multifaceted therapeutic relationship, the therapist has every duty to respond to patient choice and to help patients achieve their goals.... BUT... [First,] therapists must determine whether patients understand that their motives may arise purely from the social pressures of a homophobic environment.... [and second,] patients must understand that [treatments to modify sexual orientation] lack a validated scientific foundation and may prove psychologically harmful."
Beside this article, there is a box indicating that the article is part of the 'LGBT and Queer studies' series. The word queer is usually used to associate homosexuality with eccentricity and insanity. Its use in an article about how homosexuality has been treated as an illness is disgusting and inappropriate. Those who wish to can protest its use here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_May_19#Category:Queer_studies. Skoojal ( talk) 05:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Recently, an editor called 66.30.20.71 has been going through articles and changing "reparative therapy" to "conversion therapy." In a few cases, this may be correct, but in most of the cases the editor has done this, it is a serious error. 66.30.20.71 has already been cautioned on his talk page about this by two editors, one of them me. 66.30.20.71 has tried to justify his editing by pointing to the article on conversion therapy, saying that it does not say that reparative therapy is only one kind of conversion therapy. The reason why the article didn't say that is because 66.30.20.71 had changed it. I have changed it back, and it is now correct. Skoojal ( talk) 04:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I gather that 66.30.20.71 had a problem with Warren Throckmorton being used as a source, but there's no question that Throckmorton is correct. His article usefully points out a common and serious error, and it would be extremely regrettable if this article is going to be edited in a way that perpetuates the mistake Throckmorton exposed. Please, before anyone decides to change this, find a source suggesting that Throckmorton is wrong. Absent such a source, there's no justification for changing the article back again. Skoojal ( talk) 04:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
66.30.20.71 wrote this in the article, ' Warren Throckmorton distinguishes what he calls "reparative therapy" from his own method, which he refers to as Sexual Identity Therapy.' The source referred to cannot justify this claim; "reparative therapy" is not Throckmorton's term, so the words 'what he calls "reparative therapy"' do not make sense here. They falsely imply that it is Throckmorton in particular who is responsible for this term, but he didn't coin the expression "reparative therapy"; as Throckmorton points out, the person chiefly responsible for it was Elizabeth Moberly. Skoojal ( talk) 04:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I urge other editors to investigate this situation and undo 66.30.20.71's changing of "reparative therapy" to "conversion therapy" when it is a mistake, which it usually is. I suggest that text visible only while editing be put into these articles to discourage other editors from making the same mistake. Skoojal ( talk) 04:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Without any prior discussion, Jokestress recently added a large amount of information about transgender issues to this article. It is unclear to me that this was the correct decision, or that this material was properly integrated with existing material. After all, the article reads, 'Today's conversion therapists characterize the movement as offering the possibility of a choice to people who are unhappy with their attraction to the same sex.' That statement is sourced to an article that defines reparative and conversion therapies as being about sexual preference only, not gender identity. If this is correct, then it doesn't make sense to say that conversion therapy is also about transgender issues, which do not necessarily involve homosexuality. Just on that basis alone, I think there is a case for reverting the edits made by Jokestress. Skoojal ( talk) 05:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Jokestress' large and inappropriate addition is an attempt to use this page for her own sociopolitical agenda. Jokestress has recently started re-accusing Kenneth Zucker and others of conducting reparative therapy. Zucker pointed out in a statement that this was untrue (he works with GID kids and not people who are trying not to be gay). It thus became of interest to Jokestress to expand the definition of "reparative/conversion therapy" to include trans-, so that those terms would to make her prior accusations about Zucker less incorrect.
You will notice that her large edit contains no reference supporting her revisionist definition of reparative/conversion therapy.
I believe this is a gross abuse of wikipedia and that Jokestress should not be permitted to edit on pages related to the issue.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
14:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
In this edit series, I changed the two sentences in the article. Previously, they read:
I found this assertion curious, as the article itself is called " Conversion therapy"; and the article itself makes no such distinction. I visited the reference for this statement, and determined that the person who presented this definition as was Warren Throckmorton. I determined that this reference (Throckmorton's self-published website) is not sufficient to claim the "facts" about this definition, particularly considering that the article used to be called "Reparative therapy", but is now called "Conversion therapy": apparently, at some point there was a consensus so clear that it allowed the title of the article to be changed. These were the circumstances under which I attributed this opinion to the person who held it. With my changes, the sentences read:
User:Skoojal's response to this was to revert immediately; stating: "undoing edit that introduced serious error into the article, and which is being used to justify errors in other articles - Throckmorton was correct".
Currently, we have three self-published sources, all from one person, making an assertion that is not supported elsewhere in this article. In the absence of material which would suggest that Throckmorton's view is widely accepted, we should attribute the opinion to the person who holds it.
Incidentally: in none of the sources (including the original) does Throckmorton state anything about "conversion therapy" being an umbrella term, with "reparative therapy" being one form of conversion therapy among many. In fact, none of the sources mention the term "conversion therapy" at all. Throckmorton does not present "reparative therapy" as a type of "conversion therapy"; he doesn't even use the latter term. Thus, the assertion that Skoojal made, above, remains unsourced. 66.30.20.71 ( talk) 11:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm 66.30.20.71. One of the problems I see with Skoojal's recent edits is that Skoojal is basing zir edits upon a self-published source. This self-published source is an essay titled " What is reparative therapy?", written by Warren Throckmorton and published by Throckmorton on his own website, www.drthrockmorton.com. As we see in this edit to Conversion therapy, Skoojal references the essay as a factual source.
The official Wikipedia policy on self-published sources clearly states:
"Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and only if it is not contentious."
Skoojal is using Throckmorton's self-published source as the basis for a large number of edits, in which ze claims that "reparative therapy" is only one kind of "conversion therapy"; apparently in accordance with Throckmorton's views.
The edit summaries of these 35 edits make it clear that Skoojal is interested to promote Throckmorton's definition of the term "reparative therapy" throughout Wikipedia: in them, Skoojal makes the following statements:
Skoojal refers to this usage of "conversion therapy" as " dangerously vague", and as " a common and serious mistake".
Since this usage of the self-published source is contentious; the self-published source must not be used to justify these types of edits.
In addition to failing to provide verifiable third-party sources for these edits, I feel that Skoojal's edits represent defiance of the consensus which led to change this article's title from Reparative therapy to Conversion therapy. Clearly, at some point, editors agreed that the term "conversion therapy" was a synonym for "reparative therapy", and that "conversion therapy" is preferable.
The American Psychological Association, in Answers to Your Questions For a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality, writes:
The American Psychiatric Association, in Position Statement on Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies), uses "conversion therapy" and "reparative therapy" as synonyms, but places the word "reparative" in quotes ((perhaps as scare quotes), whenever it is used.
To recap:
In my opinion, any rebuttal to this statement should include several reliable sources that indicate 1) that "conversion therapy" is an umbrella term containing "reparative therapy", and 2) what other forms of "conversion therapy", beyond "reparative therapy", exist. The rebuttal should also indicate why we should prefer these sources over 1) the usage preferred by the editors who came to a consensus to rename this article Conversion therapy, and 2) the usage preferred by the American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association. Whistling42 ( talk) 13:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Removed the following statement from the article: "Sometimes reparative therapy is misleadingly used synonymously with reorientation counselling." The sources given were two self-published sources on "drthrockmorton.com", and are still inappropriate for anything other than to verify their own existence (i.e. "Warren Throckmorton self-published this statement."). Until such time as JoshuaJohnson's suggestion comes to pass (that a determination is made about the various forms of therapy and what they are), we must not rely on self-published sources to prove a point; doing so violates Wikipedia policy. For this reason, I have also reverted three similar edits which seek to make the same (unsourced) distinction: one to National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, one to Joseph Nicolosi, and one to Brian Wayne Peterson. Whistling42 ( talk) 12:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Once again, I have removed the use of self-published sources per official Wikipedia policy, WP:SELFPUB, which states: "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and only if it [the material] is not contentious." This usage fails on both counts. The usage also fails per WP:SPS, which states that personal websites are largely not acceptable as sources. I have also removed the use of a Wikipedia article as a source, again per WP:SPS. Thirdly, I have removed repetetive wikilinks per WP:MOS. Whistling42 ( talk) 01:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Two editors have raised objections about expanding this article to include all forms of reparative therapy, including gender identity and expression. Here are a few salient quotations:
In other words, there are lots of sources indicating that reparative therapy is not limited to sexual orientation. I feel the article should reflect this. Please provide any reasons why you feel it shouldn't, so we can discuss the ways to proceed. Jokestress ( talk) 16:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
It is no secret that Zucker is a colleague of mine.
[5]
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
19:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and provide the complete reference to whatever you're talking about, and I'll look it up. I have a great library.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
19:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The complete (unmanipulated) quote from that page is :
That is, in that article, Zucker is talking about what other people have done, and by removing key pieces of the quote, Jokestress is trying to make it sound as if Zucker is talking about what he himself does. So, Jokestress, these research assistants of yours: Did they give you an already incomplete quote, or did these key pieces of information somehow go missing afterwards?
My own opinion is that Jokestress' gross misrepresentations about Zucker baldly violate BLP and that she should not be permitted to edit on the relevant pages.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
20:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
No. The passage in the Zucker paper was not providing a definition of reparative therapy. He was discussing a clinical case and noted that the clinical literature contained papers about trying to change sexual orientation and contained papers about trying to change gender identity.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
20:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
This is not the "therapeutic intervention" page. It is the "conversion therapy" page. The literature all defines conversion therapy as changing sexual orientation, and you have not produced any RS for otherwise.
I propose that rules be followed.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
22:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
You're asking me to repeat points what I already made. The definition of conversion therapy is extremely well-published. You want to say that the definition is something different (and which just so happens to match up with claims you make on your personal website). Remarkable claims require remarkable sourcing. To me, it looks like you do not have remarkable sourcing, you have a POV.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
23:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdenting) Then perhaps we should start a separate article first. What do you propose we call it? I suggest one of the following:
The last suggestion is probably my preferred one, after Dr. Hill's paper section titled "Reparative therapies are harmful and contravene existing treatment standards." I am open to any other suggestions. Jokestress ( talk) 00:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that in terms of organization, a good bit of what's now in this article under "Ex-gay" ought to be moved to the article Ex-gay, and the section here cut down to a summary stub because there is already a whole article about it and info that is not already in that article should be there and not here. Would anyone get mad if I started to do that?
Dybryd ( talk) 00:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The introduction to the article reads, 'Conversion therapy refers to methods aimed at changing a person with primarily homosexual attractions to heterosexual, or at eliminating or diminishing homosexual desires and behaviors. Many techniques have been tried, including behavior modification, aversion therapy, psychoanalysis, prayer, and religious counseling. Conversion therapy is closely associated with the "ex-gay" movement, which is more explicitly religious.'
This needs to be modified to make it clear that reparative therapy is a specific method that has been used to change sexual orientation, and that it is the method most associated with the ex-gay movement. I suggest that the introduction be rewritten as follows: 'Conversion therapy refers to methods aimed at changing a person with primarily homosexual attractions to heterosexual, or at eliminating or diminishing homosexual desires and behaviors. Many techniques have been tried, including behavior modification, aversion therapy, reparative therapy, psychoanalysis, prayer, and religious counseling. Reparative therapy is closely associated with the "ex-gay" movement, which is more explicitly religious.' Skoojal ( talk) 04:00, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I've just looked briefly at the sources, but it seems quite obvious that the terminology is being used in the profession in more than one way. Definition One considers reparative therapy an approximate synonym for conversion therapy, and Definition Two considers it a specialised subtype--an older subtype, referring specifically to a psychoanalytically-based method. I am not yet clear who uses it which way, but I think the APA establishment, which deprecates conversion theory in general, does not make much distinction between the various forms. The psychologists allied with groups that have some connection with conservative Christianity, which promotes conversion therapy to at least a certain extent, tends to make the differentiation--presumably in order to distinguish their newer methods which they think more sophisticated in terms of an understand of the social as well as the psychological significance of homosexuality and free from what many consider the theoretical baggage of psychoanalysis.
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
What is RT
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
There is a long list of ex-ex-gay people in this article, but a short list of ex-gay people. Most of the ex-gay people are on the ex-gay page. To be balanced, shouldn't there just be a short summary of ex-ex-gay people on this page and put the longer, more detailed list on the ex-ex-gay page, as is done for ex-gay? I also noticed that the section on scandals in ex-gay camps is duplicated both on this page and on the ex-gay page. Could there be a summary here and leave the main section on the ex-gay page? Joshuajohanson ( talk) 22:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Moved from article. It's unclear what this means and what the legal effect of this is, and an English-language source should be provided if possible. I googled this but didn't find much.
In Germany all parties of the german Bundestag are against Conversion therapy. The german executive wrote, that Conversion therapy is dangerous and that homosexuality is no reason for conversion therapy. German Bundestag: Answer of CDU/SPD against conversion therapies
Fireplace ( talk) 14:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I included a paragraph in this article about the study that was conducted in the US and the results that found that reorientation therapy does make a change in the majority of patients. 75.181.81.251 ( talk) 00:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
The following was removed from the lead: "a client interested in conversion therapy has the right to seek it." Why? It follows what all major medical organizations have said:
I see no evidence anywhere where a client does not have the right to get conversion therapy. I know from personal experience that you can legally get it from licensed psychologists with full approval of the APA. All they have ever done is officially express concern. The way it is currently written is misleading and either needs to be fixed or removed from Good Article Status. Joshuajohanson ( talk) 17:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that this has had a religious focus that makes some people upset. As someone not on the "religious right" I'm concerned with people's mental health. I don't think it's prejudicial to observe that when you can't stand to be in your body, there's something wrong. I'm interested in knowing any valid, honest information on any studies in the area of medication or non-religious psychotherapy for the psychological discomfort described in transgender disorder cases.Anybody got any data, minus political posturing? 75.165.34.215 ( talk) 14:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, it sounds like you are attempting to refer to Transsexualism. I've never heard of someone using conversion therapy to cure them. Read through that page and see if that answers your questions. Kairos ( talk) 13:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The article currently reads, 'Support for conversion therapy has even been found among gay activists. Camille Paglia, a lesbian activist, wrote in her book Tramps and Vamps, "Is the gay identity so fragile that it cannot bear the thought that some people may not wish to be gay? Sexuality is highly fluid and reversals are theoretically possible."[179]'
This gives a somewhat misleading idea of Paglia's views. She was criticising the extreme reaction of some gay people to some people's decision to try to change, not necessarily advocating conversion therapy. The reference to Paglia connects to an article on NARTH's website, which includes some quotes from Vamps and Tramps, notably not including this, on page 78: 'The injustice and impracticality are in trying to "convert" totally from homosexuality to heterosexuality, an opposition I think false.' The description of Paglia as an 'activist' is also rather off. Actually she is a literary scholar. Skoojal ( talk) 23:10, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
If conversion therapy were a pseudoscience, then the APA wouldn't allow physicians to practice it under their licenses, have presentations at their conferences on it, and publish guidelines on how to do it. The official statement by the APA includes the quote: "APA encourages and supports research in the NIMH and the academic research community to further determine "reparative" therapy's risks versus its benefits." The APA wouldn't support research into pseudo science. The only evidence of it being a pseudoscience is a paper written back in the 1990's by gay psychologist Dr. Haldeman, who has since written a paper supporting the right of a client to seek it professionally. Yes, they discourage it, warn of potential harms including a harmful environment and have found several faults in the premises surrounding reparative therapy, but that doesn't mean it is a pseudoscience. You need to find an official source saying mainstream organizations consider it a pseudoscience or remove it from the pseudoscience category. Joshuajohanson ( talk) 20:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent) No one has presented any reliable sources showing that there's a consensus that conversion therapy as practiced by certain people today is pseudoscientific -- debates about licensing, etc., seem inapt -- the standard is WP:RS. However, there are reliable sources stating that conversion therapy, as practiced throughout most of its history, is pseudoscientific. That seems sufficient to put this article in the pseudoscience category for navigational purposes. (Joshua's response to this argument above doesn't really have much meat to it.) Fireplace ( talk) 20:38, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
(unidented)There are a lot of points to respond to. Let's see if I can get them all:
I think this article fails to point out the fact that most therapists actually practicing conversion therapy prefer the term reparative therapy. The article currently states "The label conversion is often preferred over reparative, as the latter suggests that same-sex desire is something which can or should be repaired." This is certainly true for opponents of conversion therapy. However, advocates of conversion therapy tend to use the term reparative therapy, which the article does not currently state. If you actuatly go to the NARTH website you will see that their literature tends to use this term. Nrswanson ( talk) 02:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
This article frequently uses the expression 'sexual activity' where plain old fashioned 'sex' would be better. I propose to replace 'sexual activity' with 'sex', which means the same thing and has eleven fewer letters. If there are no objections within the next two days, I will assume that no one disagrees or can suggest a reason why I shouldn't do this, and will go ahead. Skoojal ( talk) 08:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The first sentence of this article begins, 'Conversion therapy, sometimes called sexual reorientation therapy or reparative therapy...' This is not actually wrong - conversion therapy is sometimes called reparative therapy, just as it is called a lot of other things, but it is misleading, as has been pointed out numerous times. Elsewhere, the article says, 'Sometimes reparative therapy is misleadingly used synonymously with conversion therapy, though in fact it is only one type of conversion therapy.' This is true, and that's why the article should not begin the way it does. I have taken the liberty of changing the article without waiting for a discussion because it really was just wrong the way it was. Skoojal ( talk) 22:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
As a result of a recent edit war between myself and several other people, this article now uses an inconsistent mixture of terms to describe people attracted to the same sex. Sometimes 'homosexual' is used, and sometimes 'gay' or 'lesbian', with no apparent logic to the choices. Presumably this happened because those who were undoing my edits did it so quickly that they may not have realized exactly what they were doing - several cases of my changing 'gay' to 'homosexual' seem to have escaped notice. The article ought to use consistent terminology (I would prefer it if 'homosexual' was used throughout the article except in direct quotes, but I realize that I'm not going to get my way on this). My only request to whoever edits the article to resolve this situation is to at least not use the silly acronyms - GLBT, LGBT, GLB or whatever - where it can be avoided. They're a mutilation of the English language. Skoojal ( talk) 02:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The introduction contains a sentence that reads, 'Today's conversion therapists characterize the movement as offering the possibility of a choice to gay men and lesbian women who are unhappy with their sexuality.' I've already tried to point out what is wrong with this. Conversion therapists typically do not like or use terms like 'gay men', so this sentence effectively represents them as saying something that they do not say. The 'gay men' and 'lesbian women' who are not satisfied with their sexuality also generally do not use these terms or want them applied to themselves, so that's deeply unfair to them. This part of the article could be made fair without using the word 'homosexuals' by changing it to, 'Today's conversion therapists characterize the movement as offering the possibility of a choice to people who are unhappy with their attraction to the same sex.' I can't see why anyone should object to this. Skoojal ( talk) 02:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Part of the article reads, 'The label reparative originates from 1983 when research psychologist Elizabeth Moberly coined the term reparative drive to refer to male homosexuality itself, interpreting male–male desires...' This is expressed very badly. The term 'male-male' does not make sense in English. I am going to change this to something that actually makes sense - male homosexual desire, maybe; I'm open to other suggestions - in the near future in the absence of objections. Skoojal ( talk) 03:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In 1997, the APA sent out a resolution that included these words:
"Therefore be it resolved that APA affirms the following principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation:"
I summarized it by saying by saying they "affirmed the principles with regard to treatments to alter sexual orientation." I really tried to keep the same wording, but it was removed with the paraphrase "this phrasing misleadingly makes it sound as though the APA has established principals within which it approves of conversion therapy -- that is not what the source says." Am I missing something? I am trying to keep the same wording as the document. Are you seeing something I'm not? Joshuajohanson ( talk) 07:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In 1997, the APA stated:
I have not seen any official statement refuting that. In 2004, the Counseling Psychologist published a paper saying "the topic of sexual-identity conflicts cannot be framed as it has been - that is, a war between opposing camps, with reparative therapists on one side and gay-affirmative therapists on the other. Ultimately, the client is the one who will be caught in the crossfire."
There is a debate in the field. Simple as that. Joshuajohanson ( talk) 07:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
What context do you think is necessary to put that quote in context. After he made the quote he reiterated some of the basic principles that have already been confirmed. Would this be enough context?
If not, what context do you want? Joshuajohanson ( talk) 07:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
"Gerald Koocher, while serving a one-year term as president of the American Psychological Association, said that "the APA has no conflict with psychologists who help those distressed by unwanted homosexual attraction." Advocates of conversion therapy called this statement "an amazing turnabout" and a positive development. But Koocher clarified his comments soon after, stating that "in a full multifaceted therapeutic relationship, the therapist has every duty to respond to patient choice and to help patients achieve their goals.... BUT... [First,] therapists must determine whether patients understand that their motives may arise purely from the social pressures of a homophobic environment.... [and second,] patients must understand that [treatments to modify sexual orientation] lack a validated scientific foundation and may prove psychologically harmful."
Beside this article, there is a box indicating that the article is part of the 'LGBT and Queer studies' series. The word queer is usually used to associate homosexuality with eccentricity and insanity. Its use in an article about how homosexuality has been treated as an illness is disgusting and inappropriate. Those who wish to can protest its use here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_May_19#Category:Queer_studies. Skoojal ( talk) 05:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Recently, an editor called 66.30.20.71 has been going through articles and changing "reparative therapy" to "conversion therapy." In a few cases, this may be correct, but in most of the cases the editor has done this, it is a serious error. 66.30.20.71 has already been cautioned on his talk page about this by two editors, one of them me. 66.30.20.71 has tried to justify his editing by pointing to the article on conversion therapy, saying that it does not say that reparative therapy is only one kind of conversion therapy. The reason why the article didn't say that is because 66.30.20.71 had changed it. I have changed it back, and it is now correct. Skoojal ( talk) 04:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I gather that 66.30.20.71 had a problem with Warren Throckmorton being used as a source, but there's no question that Throckmorton is correct. His article usefully points out a common and serious error, and it would be extremely regrettable if this article is going to be edited in a way that perpetuates the mistake Throckmorton exposed. Please, before anyone decides to change this, find a source suggesting that Throckmorton is wrong. Absent such a source, there's no justification for changing the article back again. Skoojal ( talk) 04:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
66.30.20.71 wrote this in the article, ' Warren Throckmorton distinguishes what he calls "reparative therapy" from his own method, which he refers to as Sexual Identity Therapy.' The source referred to cannot justify this claim; "reparative therapy" is not Throckmorton's term, so the words 'what he calls "reparative therapy"' do not make sense here. They falsely imply that it is Throckmorton in particular who is responsible for this term, but he didn't coin the expression "reparative therapy"; as Throckmorton points out, the person chiefly responsible for it was Elizabeth Moberly. Skoojal ( talk) 04:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I urge other editors to investigate this situation and undo 66.30.20.71's changing of "reparative therapy" to "conversion therapy" when it is a mistake, which it usually is. I suggest that text visible only while editing be put into these articles to discourage other editors from making the same mistake. Skoojal ( talk) 04:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Without any prior discussion, Jokestress recently added a large amount of information about transgender issues to this article. It is unclear to me that this was the correct decision, or that this material was properly integrated with existing material. After all, the article reads, 'Today's conversion therapists characterize the movement as offering the possibility of a choice to people who are unhappy with their attraction to the same sex.' That statement is sourced to an article that defines reparative and conversion therapies as being about sexual preference only, not gender identity. If this is correct, then it doesn't make sense to say that conversion therapy is also about transgender issues, which do not necessarily involve homosexuality. Just on that basis alone, I think there is a case for reverting the edits made by Jokestress. Skoojal ( talk) 05:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Jokestress' large and inappropriate addition is an attempt to use this page for her own sociopolitical agenda. Jokestress has recently started re-accusing Kenneth Zucker and others of conducting reparative therapy. Zucker pointed out in a statement that this was untrue (he works with GID kids and not people who are trying not to be gay). It thus became of interest to Jokestress to expand the definition of "reparative/conversion therapy" to include trans-, so that those terms would to make her prior accusations about Zucker less incorrect.
You will notice that her large edit contains no reference supporting her revisionist definition of reparative/conversion therapy.
I believe this is a gross abuse of wikipedia and that Jokestress should not be permitted to edit on pages related to the issue.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
14:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
In this edit series, I changed the two sentences in the article. Previously, they read:
I found this assertion curious, as the article itself is called " Conversion therapy"; and the article itself makes no such distinction. I visited the reference for this statement, and determined that the person who presented this definition as was Warren Throckmorton. I determined that this reference (Throckmorton's self-published website) is not sufficient to claim the "facts" about this definition, particularly considering that the article used to be called "Reparative therapy", but is now called "Conversion therapy": apparently, at some point there was a consensus so clear that it allowed the title of the article to be changed. These were the circumstances under which I attributed this opinion to the person who held it. With my changes, the sentences read:
User:Skoojal's response to this was to revert immediately; stating: "undoing edit that introduced serious error into the article, and which is being used to justify errors in other articles - Throckmorton was correct".
Currently, we have three self-published sources, all from one person, making an assertion that is not supported elsewhere in this article. In the absence of material which would suggest that Throckmorton's view is widely accepted, we should attribute the opinion to the person who holds it.
Incidentally: in none of the sources (including the original) does Throckmorton state anything about "conversion therapy" being an umbrella term, with "reparative therapy" being one form of conversion therapy among many. In fact, none of the sources mention the term "conversion therapy" at all. Throckmorton does not present "reparative therapy" as a type of "conversion therapy"; he doesn't even use the latter term. Thus, the assertion that Skoojal made, above, remains unsourced. 66.30.20.71 ( talk) 11:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I'm 66.30.20.71. One of the problems I see with Skoojal's recent edits is that Skoojal is basing zir edits upon a self-published source. This self-published source is an essay titled " What is reparative therapy?", written by Warren Throckmorton and published by Throckmorton on his own website, www.drthrockmorton.com. As we see in this edit to Conversion therapy, Skoojal references the essay as a factual source.
The official Wikipedia policy on self-published sources clearly states:
"Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and only if it is not contentious."
Skoojal is using Throckmorton's self-published source as the basis for a large number of edits, in which ze claims that "reparative therapy" is only one kind of "conversion therapy"; apparently in accordance with Throckmorton's views.
The edit summaries of these 35 edits make it clear that Skoojal is interested to promote Throckmorton's definition of the term "reparative therapy" throughout Wikipedia: in them, Skoojal makes the following statements:
Skoojal refers to this usage of "conversion therapy" as " dangerously vague", and as " a common and serious mistake".
Since this usage of the self-published source is contentious; the self-published source must not be used to justify these types of edits.
In addition to failing to provide verifiable third-party sources for these edits, I feel that Skoojal's edits represent defiance of the consensus which led to change this article's title from Reparative therapy to Conversion therapy. Clearly, at some point, editors agreed that the term "conversion therapy" was a synonym for "reparative therapy", and that "conversion therapy" is preferable.
The American Psychological Association, in Answers to Your Questions For a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality, writes:
The American Psychiatric Association, in Position Statement on Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies), uses "conversion therapy" and "reparative therapy" as synonyms, but places the word "reparative" in quotes ((perhaps as scare quotes), whenever it is used.
To recap:
In my opinion, any rebuttal to this statement should include several reliable sources that indicate 1) that "conversion therapy" is an umbrella term containing "reparative therapy", and 2) what other forms of "conversion therapy", beyond "reparative therapy", exist. The rebuttal should also indicate why we should prefer these sources over 1) the usage preferred by the editors who came to a consensus to rename this article Conversion therapy, and 2) the usage preferred by the American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association. Whistling42 ( talk) 13:12, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
Removed the following statement from the article: "Sometimes reparative therapy is misleadingly used synonymously with reorientation counselling." The sources given were two self-published sources on "drthrockmorton.com", and are still inappropriate for anything other than to verify their own existence (i.e. "Warren Throckmorton self-published this statement."). Until such time as JoshuaJohnson's suggestion comes to pass (that a determination is made about the various forms of therapy and what they are), we must not rely on self-published sources to prove a point; doing so violates Wikipedia policy. For this reason, I have also reverted three similar edits which seek to make the same (unsourced) distinction: one to National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality, one to Joseph Nicolosi, and one to Brian Wayne Peterson. Whistling42 ( talk) 12:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Once again, I have removed the use of self-published sources per official Wikipedia policy, WP:SELFPUB, which states: "Self-published and questionable sources may only be used as sources about themselves, and only if it [the material] is not contentious." This usage fails on both counts. The usage also fails per WP:SPS, which states that personal websites are largely not acceptable as sources. I have also removed the use of a Wikipedia article as a source, again per WP:SPS. Thirdly, I have removed repetetive wikilinks per WP:MOS. Whistling42 ( talk) 01:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Two editors have raised objections about expanding this article to include all forms of reparative therapy, including gender identity and expression. Here are a few salient quotations:
In other words, there are lots of sources indicating that reparative therapy is not limited to sexual orientation. I feel the article should reflect this. Please provide any reasons why you feel it shouldn't, so we can discuss the ways to proceed. Jokestress ( talk) 16:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
It is no secret that Zucker is a colleague of mine.
[5]
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
19:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and provide the complete reference to whatever you're talking about, and I'll look it up. I have a great library.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
19:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
The complete (unmanipulated) quote from that page is :
That is, in that article, Zucker is talking about what other people have done, and by removing key pieces of the quote, Jokestress is trying to make it sound as if Zucker is talking about what he himself does. So, Jokestress, these research assistants of yours: Did they give you an already incomplete quote, or did these key pieces of information somehow go missing afterwards?
My own opinion is that Jokestress' gross misrepresentations about Zucker baldly violate BLP and that she should not be permitted to edit on the relevant pages.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
20:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
No. The passage in the Zucker paper was not providing a definition of reparative therapy. He was discussing a clinical case and noted that the clinical literature contained papers about trying to change sexual orientation and contained papers about trying to change gender identity.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
20:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
This is not the "therapeutic intervention" page. It is the "conversion therapy" page. The literature all defines conversion therapy as changing sexual orientation, and you have not produced any RS for otherwise.
I propose that rules be followed.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
22:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
You're asking me to repeat points what I already made. The definition of conversion therapy is extremely well-published. You want to say that the definition is something different (and which just so happens to match up with claims you make on your personal website). Remarkable claims require remarkable sourcing. To me, it looks like you do not have remarkable sourcing, you have a POV.
—
MarionTheLibrarian (
talk)
23:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
(outdenting) Then perhaps we should start a separate article first. What do you propose we call it? I suggest one of the following:
The last suggestion is probably my preferred one, after Dr. Hill's paper section titled "Reparative therapies are harmful and contravene existing treatment standards." I am open to any other suggestions. Jokestress ( talk) 00:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I think that in terms of organization, a good bit of what's now in this article under "Ex-gay" ought to be moved to the article Ex-gay, and the section here cut down to a summary stub because there is already a whole article about it and info that is not already in that article should be there and not here. Would anyone get mad if I started to do that?
Dybryd ( talk) 00:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The introduction to the article reads, 'Conversion therapy refers to methods aimed at changing a person with primarily homosexual attractions to heterosexual, or at eliminating or diminishing homosexual desires and behaviors. Many techniques have been tried, including behavior modification, aversion therapy, psychoanalysis, prayer, and religious counseling. Conversion therapy is closely associated with the "ex-gay" movement, which is more explicitly religious.'
This needs to be modified to make it clear that reparative therapy is a specific method that has been used to change sexual orientation, and that it is the method most associated with the ex-gay movement. I suggest that the introduction be rewritten as follows: 'Conversion therapy refers to methods aimed at changing a person with primarily homosexual attractions to heterosexual, or at eliminating or diminishing homosexual desires and behaviors. Many techniques have been tried, including behavior modification, aversion therapy, reparative therapy, psychoanalysis, prayer, and religious counseling. Reparative therapy is closely associated with the "ex-gay" movement, which is more explicitly religious.' Skoojal ( talk) 04:00, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
I've just looked briefly at the sources, but it seems quite obvious that the terminology is being used in the profession in more than one way. Definition One considers reparative therapy an approximate synonym for conversion therapy, and Definition Two considers it a specialised subtype--an older subtype, referring specifically to a psychoanalytically-based method. I am not yet clear who uses it which way, but I think the APA establishment, which deprecates conversion theory in general, does not make much distinction between the various forms. The psychologists allied with groups that have some connection with conservative Christianity, which promotes conversion therapy to at least a certain extent, tends to make the differentiation--presumably in order to distinguish their newer methods which they think more sophisticated in terms of an understand of the social as well as the psychological significance of homosexuality and free from what many consider the theoretical baggage of psychoanalysis.
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
What is RT
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).