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Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic fighters take the checkpoints of al-Za’lan, al-Raii, al-Rab’an, al-Madakhen around Wadi al-Deif and al-Hamdia camps. SOHR SOHR And guys Islamic fighters it is not Islamic Front. Hanibal911 ( talk) 18:40, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Read the Arabic SOHR. They write Jabhat Islamya, which means Islamic front. Both JAN and IF have the main role in these battles, videos are being published on Islamic Front youtube channels showing their fighters. Also FSA Div13 members are participating too DuckZz ( talk) 19:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I think we should wait until they says "ISIS fighters" beacause the word islamic fighters is used for other pro-opp fighters too like islamic front etc Lindi29 ( talk) 21:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm just saying so you can understand. SOHR is a good source but translators working for them don't really care about groups in general. For example, an article from Arabic SOHR, they use the words "Jabhat Islamya" which means Islamic front or group doesn't matter, on the other hand English SOHR translates that as "Islamic batalion" which is good but .... on another article Arabic SOHR mentions again "Jabhat Islamya" , but English SOHR translates that as "Islamic fighters" WHY ? They don't care.
Here's an example on an article from today. SOHR says "JAN destroyed a tank using a TOW missile" I mean lol ? Do these guys, or these look like JAN members ? That's it. DuckZz ( talk) 23:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
They are participating in every battle there but why should they take credit for everything ? This is not about if they have taken it but who is in control now, and if that's the case we can use pro-opposition sources. Islamic front members are posting pictures of their soldiers in every checkpoint they are around Marat Numan, same goes for other groups, same for JAN members. Now I'm not saying rebels (FSA) are in control of everything but it's not possible or logical that JAN controls every checkpoint SOHR or other mentions in the past 2 days ...
You know how it goes, it's more interesting for channels to post something affiliated with "Al Qaeda", doesn't matter in what numbers they were there. They don't care about other groups because they are not well known. That was the case for every bigger place that fell under rebel control in Darra province. Every channel was mentioning Al Qaeda even thought their numbers were only in few dozens, but they are well known to the readers.
My suggestion for this case is. Wadi Daif (as it's the biggest base there) should go JAN held, every other checkpoint ( 2 of them) to green (Islamic Front held). DuckZz ( talk) 10:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes I belive this is the best thing we can do. Wadi Daif should stay grey. We'll wait for Hamydijah and decide later. DuckZz ( talk) 10:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I know, it's a total mess, JAN is mixed with rebels. Wadi Daif should stay grey, checkpoints around to Ahrar (IF) control. Open a new section for Hamdyidah, this page is too long. DuckZz ( talk) 11:34, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
al-Hamidiyah army base to green/grey per:
It seems that rebels have taken control of Hamidiyah base and the villages of Hamidiyah and Basidah. PetroLucem source gives a map that shows the SAA south of Khan Shaykun (interesting for the status of Khan Shaykun as a contested city), but not north of Basidah. Opposition Twitter reports also mention the capture of both villages and clashes near Ma'ar Hattit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 13:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
A map by Agathocles de Syracuse showing rebel advances in the past three days: http://www.agathocledesyracuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Maarat-al-numan-rebels-offensive-UPDATE-15-Dec-2014-by-@desyracuse.png
I said rebels. Because that's who they are. They may be Islamist, or secular, or foreign, they remain rebels. The Islamic Front participated, the Free Syrian Army 13th Brigade, Jund al-Aqsa, Jabhat al-Nusra. Maybe more. So :) rebels, without naming a certain group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 17:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
USNEWS - Bsida (Dar Basidah) overrun as well, SAA fell back to Maar Hattat which is now besieged Boredwhytekid ( talk) 17:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I was not "inventing facts" Hannibal. I merely stated that whilst Jabhat al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham led the offensive, others participated. Also, I meant that Jabhat and Ahrar are rebels just like the FSA. So I only tried to reason with editors who are claiming that one group is solely responsible, for the only group acting that way in Syria is IS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 18:19, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Hanibal. This offensive was clearly the work of Jabhat Al-Nusra. Not only have numerous sources been provided detailing their involvement, but the area around the bases is already controlled by JAN. It makes no sense for the "moderate rebels" to come out of nowhere and seize the camps, but JAN is already well established there and would have the most to gain by seizing these camps. XJ-0461 v2 ( talk) 20:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
BBC also says 13th Division and Fursan Al-Haqq participated. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 18:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Think, we should depict also Southern front in colours showing affiliation to the different factions - either FSA (green), Al Nusra (grey) or just recently several groups that pledged allegiance with ISIS (black) - see http://www.chamtimes.com/278242.html
Tomas 85.226.245.213 ( talk) 23:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
As long as JAN and FSA do not fight each other they stay green but if some FSA change to ISIL and we know the towns they control then yes they should be black . 81.156.225.119 ( talk) 17:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)pyphon
Al Nusra has claimed an Emirate in Syria, this means they will sooner or later, or at a given opportunity claim that also in the South like they have done recently in Idlib by attacking and taken over SRF and Al-Hazm towns, also In South they have attacked and taken some sites from FSA recently there (see link above/below and also other discussions/topics above). It is also important to see the spread out and precense of JAN, since it is actually "Al Quadia" a listed global terrorist organization - and I think not represented in FSA councils and intenational summits - and thus not 'approved' part of FSA - we should keep it visible in 'grey everywhere they are.
On the ISIS afiliated groups I think now there are three factions in the South that claim ISIS allegiance, that surely control some towns - as per the included link above - http://www.chamtimes.com/278242.html
Tomas 85.226.245.213 ( talk) 23:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Lindi29 has raised a question about the status of the southernmost red/SAA-held towns in Hasakah: Sab'a, Taban, Burj Ghrabyiah, Sabburyiah, Hamadanyiah. desyracuse shows this area as IS held, citing a report of coalition airstrikes in the area. Everything I have come across corroborates coalition strikes Washington post, 2x, BBC, the national, dpt of defense, business insider, etc, which would mean IS control. Does anyone have additional information? Boredwhytekid ( talk) 14:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Weren't you earlier this month advocating that we should use desyracuse when we lack other sources here? Well, do we have a more recent/reliable sources for these specific towns? Boredwhytekid ( talk) 17:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Pro opposition source said that the al-Qaeda-linked group of Nusra Front seized the headquarters of the rebel brigade of the “Yarmouk Martyrs” in the town of Taseel in Daraa province following clashes between the two parties. Also civil rights activist Mohammed Hassan said that members of al-Nusra stormed the town and took control of the headquarters of the Yarmouk Martyrs Brigade of the Free Syrian Army , as well as seizing a military vehicle. Clashes between both sides (Nusra and Yarmouk Brigade) spread to the town of Saham al-Jawlan, without causing casualties. ARA News Hanibal911 ( talk) 12:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
The Yarmouk Martyrs Brigade counts some 5000 fighters and is the biggest FSA faction in Daraa. It is headed by Bashar al-Zoubi himself, commander of the Southern Front. If this clash was not just some local incident, we will hear of it in the coming days. Nusra has only little power in the south. There are thousands of FSA fighters active there, highly organised (Yarmouk Army, First Corps, al-Furqlan Brigades, SRF). Nusra won't be able to take over large swaths of terretory like they did in Idlib. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 13:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Nope, they are not the spearhead of the southern offensive. The Harrah battle was 100% Southern Front. Footage from Nawa shows both Nusra and Southern Front flags, just the same as in Sheikh Maskin. The operations near Nasib crossing were Southern Front. Deir al-Abas is protected by ... the Southern Front. Estimates say there are some 3000 - 5000 Nusra fighters in southern Syria, compared to some 10,000 Islamist rebels and 15,000 - 20,000 moderates. Nusra is very good at using social media and showing its fighters in the heat of battle, but that does not say everything. Especially in Daraa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 17:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
How about a new rule for youtube videos ? In most cases they are the best if not the only source besides Twitter for showing advances and contested areas. That's only my opinion, I hate sources from so called "articles" DuckZz ( talk) 21:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Any specific mention on the status of these towns?
al Masdar says the SAA retreated all the way to Morek from Wadi Deif and Hamidiyah.
ISW says "JN, HASI, and several other Islamic Front and FSA affiliated groups seized the Wadi al-Deif and al-Hamidiyah military bases as well as all remaining regime-held checkpoints in southern Idlib Province, forcing regime soldiers to retreat south into Hama Province".
pro-op syriadirect also says SAA went all the way south to Morek.
SOHR report indicates the same.
As does al-Bawaba "pro-regime social media reported that a number of military personnel who fled the Wadi Deif base arrived safely in the town of Morek in next-door Hama province"
If the SAA is still holding/intent on holding Hish, al-Amudiyah, and Sahyan, why did 1000+ soldiers flee right past them and head south to Hama province? Seems more like they abandoned the area outright Boredwhytekid ( talk) 14:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/KeepingtheLeith/status/544884664457252864 Pro-Regime Leith believes terrorists took Hish. Combined with the withdraw is pretty obvious that the whole pocket is on IF/Nusra hands. Anyway, we use Green to towns held by IF fighters. Most of the gains we're made by IF fighters, so isn't better to make those areas to be mixed control? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.40.14.221 ( talk) 15:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
DeSyracuse also reporting that the whole pocket has withdrawn: [2]. Seems pretty unanimous. Nhauer ( talk) 16:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Liwa' Shuhada' al-Yarmuk, Abu Mohamad al Tilawi Brigde and Beit al-Maqdes in Daraa declared to Islamic State. Elijah J. Magnier Infighting ongoing between "moderate rebels" supported by JAN and IS in Daraa. And IS getting closer to borders Israel. Elijah J. Magnier Hanibal911 ( talk) 18:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I think not. There have been no reports of fighting by any other rebel group in southern Syria. ISIS seems to control some desert in Suwayda and near Bir Qassab, but that's it. I doubt there is much truth in this statement. The deputy commander of Liwa Shuhada al-Yarmuk has seemingly already denied it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 22:51, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Here interactive map showed that a villages Kabajeb and Al-Shulah which located on Highway Homs - Deir Ez Zor controlled by Syrian troops. here Hanibal911 ( talk) 20:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I have no doubt that the road to Der Ez Zor is controlled by SAA and that was confirmed by several maps in the past.Yet somebody always found some other map stating differently. On the other map it is not obvious that the author(s) of this map has any more info that we have. If it is so, the map suggest several corrections to our map in favor of SAA. Paolowalter ( talk) 21:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Whoever changed them to black provided no sources of them being captured and held. It might just by that these "towns" have just 10 or 20 buildings and whatever troop convoy rolls through that day ends up "in control". These are very small desert towns. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
169.231.151.3 (
talk)
01:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
al-Masdar "The Al-Nusra Front (Jabhat Al-Nusra) suffered a major setback on Tuesday morning, when 2 prominent field commanders in the Qalamoun Mountains were killed by the National Defense Forces (NDF) during an operation in the village of Jayroud." - the SAA is conducting combat operations against JAN IN Jayroud.
al-Monitor "There are also groups affiliated with Jabhat al-Nusra located in the eastern mountains in the town of Nasiriyah and the Jayrud Mountains and ar-Ruhaybah. However, the most significant base for the armed groups remains in Al-Batra' region, which serves as a triangle between Jayrud, Nasiriyah and ar-Ruhaybah."
So, it seems that we finally, after months of silence, have information about what cities the rebels are in in Eastern Qalamoun. Jayroud, Nasiriyah, and ar-Ruhaybah. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 20:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
How in the world do you get that out of the above direct quotations? al-Masdar talks about JAN field commanders in Jayroud. IN Jayroud. al-Monitors says "in the eastern mountains, in the town of Nasiriyah, and the Jayrud Mountains and ar-Ruhaybah". In the mountains. In the town. And ar-Ruhaybah. That seems pretty clear cut. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 21:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
No, it says "There are also groups affiliated with Jabhat al-Nusra located in the eastern mountains in the town of Nasiriyah and the Jayrud Mountains and ar-Ruhaybah. However, the most significant base for the armed groups remains in Al-Batra' region, which serves as a triangle between Jayrud, Nasiriyah and ar-Ruhaybah." - in the towns, but the wastelands between them is their stronghold. That's what it says. Verbatim. And pietervan is an amateur map - we're not in the habit of disregarding mainstream media for an amateur map. AND al-Masdar says JAN commanders IN Jayroud. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 21:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
So this would mean Jayroud to contested, Nasiriyah to green and ar-Ruhaybah to contested. It would also grearly enlargen the rebel held area, since we know that the Islamic Front is as far south as Bir Qassib, were they are fighting IS fighters coming from the Iraqi border. There also seems to be contact between Eastern Qalamoun and Lajat in northern Daraa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 22:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
The al-Monitor source says the rebels are in the region between the towns, not in the towns themselves. And the Masdar source talked of the operation in a past tense, no info that its still ongoing. While we have pro-opposition deSyracuse saying all towns in that region are SAA-held while rebels are holding the mountain wilderness. EkoGraf ( talk) 11:00, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Every news report is in past tense. That makes no sense if it's an argument for not using it. #1 - If "Ruhaybah is under a truce where only the FSA has a presence in the town itself and SAA mans checkpoints on its outskirts," then it needs to be green with either a full red concentric or the appropriate SAA-manned checkpoint identified and added. #2 - We need to find locate the hill mentioned here too: "the Syrian army took control of the Umm Ruman hillside to the northeast of Dumeir" and add it in red with the abm icon. And #3 - the quote "According to sources, the region also includes groups from the Free Syrian Army (FSA), Jabhat al-Nusra and the Islamic State (IS). The latter is seeking to attract militants who are not affiliated with any other group to strengthen its presence in the region, especially in the Palmyra mountain chain." - which indicates nomadic rebel presence in that big blank area on our map between Eastern Qalamoun and Palmyra (the blank space with al-Busayri dead center). Apparently the IS was able to drive to the Bir al-Qassab area, and now apparently they're recruiting independent rebel groups in the Palmyra mountain chain (that blank spot).. so, it would seem that that's a rebel-heavy barren/wasteland/mountain region - meaning a green "presence icon" is probably appropriate in that area.
"There are also groups affiliated with Jabhat al-Nusra located in the eastern mountains in the town of Nasiriyah and the Jayrud Mountains and ar-Ruhaybah." How can that be equivocated? "and ar-Ruhaybah" - the eastern mountains of Nasiriyah, the mountains around Jayrud, and ar-Ruhaybah. Not the mountains around ar-Ruhaybah, but, "and ar-Ruhaybah". desyracuse also shows ar-Ruhaybah green but under truce. And, ChrissCh94, Ekograf provided no sources, and the only one that Hanibal provided also shows ar-Ruhaybah in green!! though doesn't label the town. So... huh? Boredwhytekid ( talk) 19:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I provided the deSyracuse map a few days ago in the edit history. But here you go here as well [3]. As you can see, all of the towns on our map are properly marked as SAA-held as are on the deSyracuse map. EkoGraf ( talk) 22:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
See, that's what I'm talking about. That is a straight lie. Look at desyracuse - it clearly DOES show ar-Ruhaybah as rebel held/under truce and you're just flat denying it like I'm color blind lol. AND so does pietervanostaeyen, AND al-Monitor said it, AND the last facebook mention by SOHR says it. More data? ALL of the data we have says the same thing, NONE says opposite. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 13:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Luckily, for the first time in months, we have such an article, that flat out says rebels are in ar-Ruhaybah. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 13:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Sweet Jesus, the dawn is coming! lol sorry for agitating everybody. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 15:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
I realy think that a village of Hurriyah in the Hasakah near of Yarubiyah border crossing under control by Kurdish forces(YPG), This confirm pro opposition map deSyeacuse and here other source also confirmed this data and show that area where located this village under control by YPG. Hanibal911 ( talk) 12:43, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
It confirms it so change it Lindi29 ( talk) 15:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
This is not just my opinion and I want to see what other editors think about this. I belive the map has too many mistakes without being noticed by others. According to this map, Jabhat Al Nusra has an exclusive control of everything south of Marat Numan, gained in the past 3/4 days during the offensive.
I belive this is incorrect. We only have 100% source showing their control of Wadi Daif and the surrounding checkpoints. That being said I want to post my sources both neutral and pro-rebel.
First about SOHR Arabic SOHR wrote about JAN + other groups involved in some fights for whatever checkpoint/village. On some article they say "JAN and Islamic front" on other "Jund Al Aqsa, Islamic front and FSA", on some other "Islamic battalion". The only articles mentioning JAN independently is for Wadi Daif and checkpoints around. Jund Al Aqsa is part of Al Nusra, same as Ahrar Al Sham is part of the Islamic Front
We can't use pro opposition sources but I am reading official Islamic Front, Sham legion, Ahrar Al Sham twitter/youtube channels, and they are writting/talking about their fighters, their groups, not Jabhat Al Nusra, only mentioning them as those who participated too in small numbers.
I'm 100% sure about this. Step News posted a 8 minute conversation about the situation in Idlib and Alepo, mostly about Idlib. Al Nusra captured Wadi Daif and the surrounding checkpoints after Syrian army withdrew to the south. Jabhat Al Nusra captured Al Fajr checkpoint, then Al Daban, then Ayn Cari. They captured Tell Banasraf too and captured (even thought that's probably not true) 20 regime soldiers who were hidding on the hill.
Rebels attacked Hamidiyah from 3 sides and captured the east and the north. Sham legion first entered the base. Islamic front captured Dayr Gharbi after Syrian troops withdrew there. Islamic front and Sham legion pushed the Syiran army more to the south and captured Dar Basidas and a checkpoint on the highway (probably Al Nasih). They don't mention Mar Hitah but they say Islamic front pushed them more to the south and we know they left that area towards Morek.
Video showing Sham legion in Hamidiyah
Syria mubasher channel posted a video talking with an rebel reporter. JAN captured Wadi Daif while Islamic Front and Faylaq Sham captured locations around Hamidiyah. Same on Al Jazeera .
These sources below are from Islamic Front (Syria and Idlib province) and Ahrar Al Sham channels.
Islamic Front members in Hamidiyah Islamic Front flag in Hamidiyah Islamic Front in Hamidiyah IF in Mar Hitat etc etc .. dozens of pictures posted on their channel.
Tour trought the region Video showing IF members in Al Dahroj checkpoint (blown up by FSA members months ago), JAN wans't here. Jabhat Al Nusra in and arund Wadi Daif. Sham legion and Ahrar Sham in Hamidiyah.
Videos are only confirming what has been said in the conversation videos from Step News, Al Jazeera, Mubashar news
I know Hanibal doesn't agree about this, you can view the conversation on his page so I don't expect his comment here, I wan't to see other editors. DuckZz ( talk) 20:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
No, listen, here is what I want to do. You say "we don't know". Well of course we don't, but "they do". With they I mean the groups who participated. According to Islamic from reporters, internet channels. And according to Jabhat Al Nusra channels :
Wadi Daif, Al fajr checkpoint, Al Daban, Ajn Qari, Tell Banasrah and Al Zalana checkpoint to grey.
Hamidiyah, Basidah, Nasrih checkpoint, Al Dahroj checkpoint, Mar Hitat and Hish to green (Islamic Front, Ahrar Sham, Sham Legion, Fursan Al Haqq, 101.Division).
The more you go to the south, the more rebels there are (mostly Islamic Front). Al Nusra is concentrated on south Idlib. DuckZz ( talk) 20:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said Nusra - the battered country's Al-Qaeda branch - seized Hamidieh and Wadi Deif, the regime's largest outposts in Idlib. The jihadis advanced in coordination with Islamist rebel groups Ahrar al-Sham and Jund al-Aqsa, the Observatory said, adding that a string of villages in the area also fell. The Daily Star Yahoo News BBC Charles Lister of the Brookings Doha Center said the gains highlighted the rise of the jihadists in the province."The nature of the operations has served to underline the renewed prominence of more Islamically-minded forces in Idlib, with Jabhat (Front) al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham having played the dominant role in practically capturing the facilities," he said. Lister also said the advance may pave the way for "a major assault on Idlib city", which like most Syrian provincial capitals remains in regime hands. The gains give Al-Nusra firm control of much of Idlib province, limiting the chances of a challenge from potential rivals. Until September this year, Ahrar al-Sham had sought to distance itself from more hardline jihadists in Syria. But a September 9 explosion that killed its top leadership "pushed the group to align itself more openly with Al-Nusra". "Now the two are fighting side by side." On Monday, Ahrar al-Sham broke its silence on the September blast, blaming "a criminal group" with "international links". Abdel Rahman said this was an apparent reference to Western intelligence agencies. Naharnet Also reliable source cleara said that Abdel-Rahman told Al-Arabiya television that the Nusra Front and a number of Islamist militias, along with a small number of FSA groups, now controlled between 70 and 80 percent of Idlib province. The Daily Star So that the reliable source clearly shows that the number of moderate rebels in the Idlib province slightly. The main power in province it is Al Nusra and their allies. Source also said that Al Nusra Front and its allies defeated two leading FSA groups in Idlib province last month, the Hazm Movement and the Syrian Rebel Front, both of which have benefited from U.S. training and weaponry. Some jihadi accounts of the battle claimed the weaponry was used in the assault that began Sunday. The Daily Star Also as we know from reliable sources that in the clashes against troops in Darra province Al Nusra also participates but still we noted all cities and villages which was taken under the control of moderate rebels. Also SOHR said that Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic battalions have taken over new points in the village Basida. SOHR Also SOHR said that Jabht al-Nusra and Islamic battalions also took control on Tal Bansara and al-Naseh. SOHR And later other source said that Al Nusra and Anhar Al Sham take full control over village Basida. U.S News Also reliable source said that Al Nusra controls 70 to 80 percent territory of the province of Idlib but moderate rebels have a small presence in the province. The Daily Star And many other reliable sources indicate that it is a major offensive Al Nusra with the support of their allies. But not moderate rebels. Reuters The Daily Star that the only evidence which confirm participate moderate rebels from the DIvision 13 in the battle for a Hamidiaya military base it is a video which Islamic Front posted on YouTube where claimed that the fighters had captured at least two regime tanks during the battle. here Also as I earlier said that we also know from reliable sources that in the clashes against troops in Darra province Al Nusra also participates but still we noted all cities and villages which was taken under the control of moderate rebels. Because it was said that a crucial role in the capture of towns and villages play a moderate rebel groups (FSA) but Al Nusra just helps them. which had previously defeated moderate rebels and captured a large part of the province. The Daily Star Albawaba Hanibal911 ( talk) 21:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Sorry Hanibal, I don't want to remove the grey color from Idlib because that's like 60% of your post proving that they seized large teritories, what I don't denie. You are using sources claiming one thing while the sources show something else. Most of your talk is based on opinions, I gave you their opinions. Let other editors decide. DuckZz ( talk) 21:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm on board with your suggestion DuckZz to, in this specific case, use the publications/videos from the groups themselves to discern which locations they overran, as opposed to their allies. In the interest of not overstating the JAN phenomenon/emirate, we should try not to mark any towns grey other than ones where they are the predominant force and fully control governance. Where the sources/reports claim both JAN and any other group (even the ever ambiguous "Islamic battalions"), we should mark green with grey inner circle, or vice versa to show that said location is not EXCLUSIVELY JAN held - grey circles are for EXCLUSIVELY JAN-held sites. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 21:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm really tired so I'll try to respond quick to Hanibal. In your last post, you posted 4 sources. First 3 of them are the same, copy/paste text. Every one of them is quoting wrong, especially from SOHR. Read again my posts from above. You are really a weird guy because it's like you said "What do they know, those who participated, Ahrar Al Sham, Islamic Front, Sham legion and even Al Nusra channels, they have no idea what or who they are, they should read news channels" sounds pretty funny ? Don't respond because I have read your posts 10 times, you should read mine from start to here DuckZz ( talk) 21:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I know, I didn't change those areas, they are grey besides Dar Basidah. DuckZz ( talk) 21:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Hanibal911 ( talk) Last source I want to post from ORIENT NEWS, I don't even what else to do, should I call them on my mobile lol ? DuckZz ( talk) 00:05, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
So long as the SOHR posts or any source citing them also mention "Islamic battalions" or any other specific group accompanying JAN, the location should be green. That's how we've marked joint JAN-anyothergroup control for the last 3 years on our map. Grey icons are only for sites where JAN is 100% in control ie:the only group there. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 15:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
None of the sources say that though. They all say JAN "and Islamic Battalions", or "and Ahrar al-Sham". Even that dailystar article says "Abdel-Rahman told Al-Arabiya television that the Nusra Front and a number of Islamist militias, along with a small number of FSA groups, now controlled between 70 and 80 percent of Idlib province." - clearly NOT Nusra exclusively. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 16:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
According to this source SAA has captured this town. here. here Lindi29 ( talk) 21:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC) Even if I believe that PetoLucem is reliable, usually we don use pro-government source to change in favor of the government. Probably it is time to change this attitude. Paolowalter ( talk) 21:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I have further investigated the sources presented concerning the Abu Duhur events. Below is a synthesis of my findings:
1- The 7 links that were claimed reliable in a previous section are in reality a copy/paste of 3 pro-gov articles:
2- The only reliable source we have is
Elijah J. Magnier
3- There is one detailed pro-gov source from idlib:
Assad Idlib News Network (for more details about the content of the source, see
here)
4- There is one pro-rebel source:
al-Arabia
So to summarize, we have: 1 reliable source, 1 pro-rebel source, 1 detailed pro-gov source, and many “one-sentence” pro-gov sources.
The reliable source, the pro-rebel source, and the detailed pro-gov source say troops returned to airport.
The “one-sentence” pro-gov sources do not mention troops returning to airport.
At this point, I copy/paste the “rules of editing” for reminder and highlight in yellow the relevant part:
Therefore, to follow the “rules of editing”, we should use the reliable source & ignore all non-neutral sources. In addition, the only detailed pro-gov source supports the reliable source.
The picture becomes clear:
Notice that technically speaking, neither pro-gov nor pro-rebel spin is a lie… However they are both trying to mislead by omitting facts!
Therefore, we should follow the reliable source and revert back the towns around Abu Duhur to green. Tradedia talk 02:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
None of those sources disprove Tradedia's argument. He's clearly done the research and it's simple enough to open the links and see that he is right. No useable source - per the rules of editing - has been provided for keeping those towns red. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 13:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Jabhat al-Nusra and islamic battalions take over the Taftanaz Air Base. SOHR Hanibal911 ( talk) 13:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
It was taken in January 2013. lol Sohr are idiots — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.132.122.57 ( talk) 15:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
It says it is taken by JAN and islamic battalions, who are the islamic battalions? IF and ahrar? lol
To grey? Clearly the firefight was an isolated incident, as JAN-Islamic Front-the largest remaining secular groups just cooperated in the recent offensive. I suggest grey instead of green because it was JAN fighting there and it is right in the "heartland" of the mini-state they carved out of the SRF Boredwhytekid ( talk) 18:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
I know, but it's been 3 weeks and the SRF is gone. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 19:05, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 34 | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | → | Archive 40 |
Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic fighters take the checkpoints of al-Za’lan, al-Raii, al-Rab’an, al-Madakhen around Wadi al-Deif and al-Hamdia camps. SOHR SOHR And guys Islamic fighters it is not Islamic Front. Hanibal911 ( talk) 18:40, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Read the Arabic SOHR. They write Jabhat Islamya, which means Islamic front. Both JAN and IF have the main role in these battles, videos are being published on Islamic Front youtube channels showing their fighters. Also FSA Div13 members are participating too DuckZz ( talk) 19:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I think we should wait until they says "ISIS fighters" beacause the word islamic fighters is used for other pro-opp fighters too like islamic front etc Lindi29 ( talk) 21:00, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm just saying so you can understand. SOHR is a good source but translators working for them don't really care about groups in general. For example, an article from Arabic SOHR, they use the words "Jabhat Islamya" which means Islamic front or group doesn't matter, on the other hand English SOHR translates that as "Islamic batalion" which is good but .... on another article Arabic SOHR mentions again "Jabhat Islamya" , but English SOHR translates that as "Islamic fighters" WHY ? They don't care.
Here's an example on an article from today. SOHR says "JAN destroyed a tank using a TOW missile" I mean lol ? Do these guys, or these look like JAN members ? That's it. DuckZz ( talk) 23:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
They are participating in every battle there but why should they take credit for everything ? This is not about if they have taken it but who is in control now, and if that's the case we can use pro-opposition sources. Islamic front members are posting pictures of their soldiers in every checkpoint they are around Marat Numan, same goes for other groups, same for JAN members. Now I'm not saying rebels (FSA) are in control of everything but it's not possible or logical that JAN controls every checkpoint SOHR or other mentions in the past 2 days ...
You know how it goes, it's more interesting for channels to post something affiliated with "Al Qaeda", doesn't matter in what numbers they were there. They don't care about other groups because they are not well known. That was the case for every bigger place that fell under rebel control in Darra province. Every channel was mentioning Al Qaeda even thought their numbers were only in few dozens, but they are well known to the readers.
My suggestion for this case is. Wadi Daif (as it's the biggest base there) should go JAN held, every other checkpoint ( 2 of them) to green (Islamic Front held). DuckZz ( talk) 10:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes I belive this is the best thing we can do. Wadi Daif should stay grey. We'll wait for Hamydijah and decide later. DuckZz ( talk) 10:57, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I know, it's a total mess, JAN is mixed with rebels. Wadi Daif should stay grey, checkpoints around to Ahrar (IF) control. Open a new section for Hamdyidah, this page is too long. DuckZz ( talk) 11:34, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
al-Hamidiyah army base to green/grey per:
It seems that rebels have taken control of Hamidiyah base and the villages of Hamidiyah and Basidah. PetroLucem source gives a map that shows the SAA south of Khan Shaykun (interesting for the status of Khan Shaykun as a contested city), but not north of Basidah. Opposition Twitter reports also mention the capture of both villages and clashes near Ma'ar Hattit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 13:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
A map by Agathocles de Syracuse showing rebel advances in the past three days: http://www.agathocledesyracuse.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Maarat-al-numan-rebels-offensive-UPDATE-15-Dec-2014-by-@desyracuse.png
I said rebels. Because that's who they are. They may be Islamist, or secular, or foreign, they remain rebels. The Islamic Front participated, the Free Syrian Army 13th Brigade, Jund al-Aqsa, Jabhat al-Nusra. Maybe more. So :) rebels, without naming a certain group. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 17:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
USNEWS - Bsida (Dar Basidah) overrun as well, SAA fell back to Maar Hattat which is now besieged Boredwhytekid ( talk) 17:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I was not "inventing facts" Hannibal. I merely stated that whilst Jabhat al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham led the offensive, others participated. Also, I meant that Jabhat and Ahrar are rebels just like the FSA. So I only tried to reason with editors who are claiming that one group is solely responsible, for the only group acting that way in Syria is IS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 18:19, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Hanibal. This offensive was clearly the work of Jabhat Al-Nusra. Not only have numerous sources been provided detailing their involvement, but the area around the bases is already controlled by JAN. It makes no sense for the "moderate rebels" to come out of nowhere and seize the camps, but JAN is already well established there and would have the most to gain by seizing these camps. XJ-0461 v2 ( talk) 20:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
BBC also says 13th Division and Fursan Al-Haqq participated. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 18:32, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Think, we should depict also Southern front in colours showing affiliation to the different factions - either FSA (green), Al Nusra (grey) or just recently several groups that pledged allegiance with ISIS (black) - see http://www.chamtimes.com/278242.html
Tomas 85.226.245.213 ( talk) 23:29, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
As long as JAN and FSA do not fight each other they stay green but if some FSA change to ISIL and we know the towns they control then yes they should be black . 81.156.225.119 ( talk) 17:18, 16 December 2014 (UTC)pyphon
Al Nusra has claimed an Emirate in Syria, this means they will sooner or later, or at a given opportunity claim that also in the South like they have done recently in Idlib by attacking and taken over SRF and Al-Hazm towns, also In South they have attacked and taken some sites from FSA recently there (see link above/below and also other discussions/topics above). It is also important to see the spread out and precense of JAN, since it is actually "Al Quadia" a listed global terrorist organization - and I think not represented in FSA councils and intenational summits - and thus not 'approved' part of FSA - we should keep it visible in 'grey everywhere they are.
On the ISIS afiliated groups I think now there are three factions in the South that claim ISIS allegiance, that surely control some towns - as per the included link above - http://www.chamtimes.com/278242.html
Tomas 85.226.245.213 ( talk) 23:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Lindi29 has raised a question about the status of the southernmost red/SAA-held towns in Hasakah: Sab'a, Taban, Burj Ghrabyiah, Sabburyiah, Hamadanyiah. desyracuse shows this area as IS held, citing a report of coalition airstrikes in the area. Everything I have come across corroborates coalition strikes Washington post, 2x, BBC, the national, dpt of defense, business insider, etc, which would mean IS control. Does anyone have additional information? Boredwhytekid ( talk) 14:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Weren't you earlier this month advocating that we should use desyracuse when we lack other sources here? Well, do we have a more recent/reliable sources for these specific towns? Boredwhytekid ( talk) 17:20, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Pro opposition source said that the al-Qaeda-linked group of Nusra Front seized the headquarters of the rebel brigade of the “Yarmouk Martyrs” in the town of Taseel in Daraa province following clashes between the two parties. Also civil rights activist Mohammed Hassan said that members of al-Nusra stormed the town and took control of the headquarters of the Yarmouk Martyrs Brigade of the Free Syrian Army , as well as seizing a military vehicle. Clashes between both sides (Nusra and Yarmouk Brigade) spread to the town of Saham al-Jawlan, without causing casualties. ARA News Hanibal911 ( talk) 12:43, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
The Yarmouk Martyrs Brigade counts some 5000 fighters and is the biggest FSA faction in Daraa. It is headed by Bashar al-Zoubi himself, commander of the Southern Front. If this clash was not just some local incident, we will hear of it in the coming days. Nusra has only little power in the south. There are thousands of FSA fighters active there, highly organised (Yarmouk Army, First Corps, al-Furqlan Brigades, SRF). Nusra won't be able to take over large swaths of terretory like they did in Idlib. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 13:33, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Nope, they are not the spearhead of the southern offensive. The Harrah battle was 100% Southern Front. Footage from Nawa shows both Nusra and Southern Front flags, just the same as in Sheikh Maskin. The operations near Nasib crossing were Southern Front. Deir al-Abas is protected by ... the Southern Front. Estimates say there are some 3000 - 5000 Nusra fighters in southern Syria, compared to some 10,000 Islamist rebels and 15,000 - 20,000 moderates. Nusra is very good at using social media and showing its fighters in the heat of battle, but that does not say everything. Especially in Daraa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 17:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
How about a new rule for youtube videos ? In most cases they are the best if not the only source besides Twitter for showing advances and contested areas. That's only my opinion, I hate sources from so called "articles" DuckZz ( talk) 21:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Any specific mention on the status of these towns?
al Masdar says the SAA retreated all the way to Morek from Wadi Deif and Hamidiyah.
ISW says "JN, HASI, and several other Islamic Front and FSA affiliated groups seized the Wadi al-Deif and al-Hamidiyah military bases as well as all remaining regime-held checkpoints in southern Idlib Province, forcing regime soldiers to retreat south into Hama Province".
pro-op syriadirect also says SAA went all the way south to Morek.
SOHR report indicates the same.
As does al-Bawaba "pro-regime social media reported that a number of military personnel who fled the Wadi Deif base arrived safely in the town of Morek in next-door Hama province"
If the SAA is still holding/intent on holding Hish, al-Amudiyah, and Sahyan, why did 1000+ soldiers flee right past them and head south to Hama province? Seems more like they abandoned the area outright Boredwhytekid ( talk) 14:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/KeepingtheLeith/status/544884664457252864 Pro-Regime Leith believes terrorists took Hish. Combined with the withdraw is pretty obvious that the whole pocket is on IF/Nusra hands. Anyway, we use Green to towns held by IF fighters. Most of the gains we're made by IF fighters, so isn't better to make those areas to be mixed control? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.40.14.221 ( talk) 15:52, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
DeSyracuse also reporting that the whole pocket has withdrawn: [2]. Seems pretty unanimous. Nhauer ( talk) 16:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Liwa' Shuhada' al-Yarmuk, Abu Mohamad al Tilawi Brigde and Beit al-Maqdes in Daraa declared to Islamic State. Elijah J. Magnier Infighting ongoing between "moderate rebels" supported by JAN and IS in Daraa. And IS getting closer to borders Israel. Elijah J. Magnier Hanibal911 ( talk) 18:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
I think not. There have been no reports of fighting by any other rebel group in southern Syria. ISIS seems to control some desert in Suwayda and near Bir Qassab, but that's it. I doubt there is much truth in this statement. The deputy commander of Liwa Shuhada al-Yarmuk has seemingly already denied it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 22:51, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Here interactive map showed that a villages Kabajeb and Al-Shulah which located on Highway Homs - Deir Ez Zor controlled by Syrian troops. here Hanibal911 ( talk) 20:18, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I have no doubt that the road to Der Ez Zor is controlled by SAA and that was confirmed by several maps in the past.Yet somebody always found some other map stating differently. On the other map it is not obvious that the author(s) of this map has any more info that we have. If it is so, the map suggest several corrections to our map in favor of SAA. Paolowalter ( talk) 21:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Whoever changed them to black provided no sources of them being captured and held. It might just by that these "towns" have just 10 or 20 buildings and whatever troop convoy rolls through that day ends up "in control". These are very small desert towns. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
169.231.151.3 (
talk)
01:13, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
al-Masdar "The Al-Nusra Front (Jabhat Al-Nusra) suffered a major setback on Tuesday morning, when 2 prominent field commanders in the Qalamoun Mountains were killed by the National Defense Forces (NDF) during an operation in the village of Jayroud." - the SAA is conducting combat operations against JAN IN Jayroud.
al-Monitor "There are also groups affiliated with Jabhat al-Nusra located in the eastern mountains in the town of Nasiriyah and the Jayrud Mountains and ar-Ruhaybah. However, the most significant base for the armed groups remains in Al-Batra' region, which serves as a triangle between Jayrud, Nasiriyah and ar-Ruhaybah."
So, it seems that we finally, after months of silence, have information about what cities the rebels are in in Eastern Qalamoun. Jayroud, Nasiriyah, and ar-Ruhaybah. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 20:36, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
How in the world do you get that out of the above direct quotations? al-Masdar talks about JAN field commanders in Jayroud. IN Jayroud. al-Monitors says "in the eastern mountains, in the town of Nasiriyah, and the Jayrud Mountains and ar-Ruhaybah". In the mountains. In the town. And ar-Ruhaybah. That seems pretty clear cut. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 21:41, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
No, it says "There are also groups affiliated with Jabhat al-Nusra located in the eastern mountains in the town of Nasiriyah and the Jayrud Mountains and ar-Ruhaybah. However, the most significant base for the armed groups remains in Al-Batra' region, which serves as a triangle between Jayrud, Nasiriyah and ar-Ruhaybah." - in the towns, but the wastelands between them is their stronghold. That's what it says. Verbatim. And pietervan is an amateur map - we're not in the habit of disregarding mainstream media for an amateur map. AND al-Masdar says JAN commanders IN Jayroud. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 21:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
So this would mean Jayroud to contested, Nasiriyah to green and ar-Ruhaybah to contested. It would also grearly enlargen the rebel held area, since we know that the Islamic Front is as far south as Bir Qassib, were they are fighting IS fighters coming from the Iraqi border. There also seems to be contact between Eastern Qalamoun and Lajat in northern Daraa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.24.43.183 ( talk) 22:35, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
The al-Monitor source says the rebels are in the region between the towns, not in the towns themselves. And the Masdar source talked of the operation in a past tense, no info that its still ongoing. While we have pro-opposition deSyracuse saying all towns in that region are SAA-held while rebels are holding the mountain wilderness. EkoGraf ( talk) 11:00, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Every news report is in past tense. That makes no sense if it's an argument for not using it. #1 - If "Ruhaybah is under a truce where only the FSA has a presence in the town itself and SAA mans checkpoints on its outskirts," then it needs to be green with either a full red concentric or the appropriate SAA-manned checkpoint identified and added. #2 - We need to find locate the hill mentioned here too: "the Syrian army took control of the Umm Ruman hillside to the northeast of Dumeir" and add it in red with the abm icon. And #3 - the quote "According to sources, the region also includes groups from the Free Syrian Army (FSA), Jabhat al-Nusra and the Islamic State (IS). The latter is seeking to attract militants who are not affiliated with any other group to strengthen its presence in the region, especially in the Palmyra mountain chain." - which indicates nomadic rebel presence in that big blank area on our map between Eastern Qalamoun and Palmyra (the blank space with al-Busayri dead center). Apparently the IS was able to drive to the Bir al-Qassab area, and now apparently they're recruiting independent rebel groups in the Palmyra mountain chain (that blank spot).. so, it would seem that that's a rebel-heavy barren/wasteland/mountain region - meaning a green "presence icon" is probably appropriate in that area.
"There are also groups affiliated with Jabhat al-Nusra located in the eastern mountains in the town of Nasiriyah and the Jayrud Mountains and ar-Ruhaybah." How can that be equivocated? "and ar-Ruhaybah" - the eastern mountains of Nasiriyah, the mountains around Jayrud, and ar-Ruhaybah. Not the mountains around ar-Ruhaybah, but, "and ar-Ruhaybah". desyracuse also shows ar-Ruhaybah green but under truce. And, ChrissCh94, Ekograf provided no sources, and the only one that Hanibal provided also shows ar-Ruhaybah in green!! though doesn't label the town. So... huh? Boredwhytekid ( talk) 19:41, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I provided the deSyracuse map a few days ago in the edit history. But here you go here as well [3]. As you can see, all of the towns on our map are properly marked as SAA-held as are on the deSyracuse map. EkoGraf ( talk) 22:08, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
See, that's what I'm talking about. That is a straight lie. Look at desyracuse - it clearly DOES show ar-Ruhaybah as rebel held/under truce and you're just flat denying it like I'm color blind lol. AND so does pietervanostaeyen, AND al-Monitor said it, AND the last facebook mention by SOHR says it. More data? ALL of the data we have says the same thing, NONE says opposite. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 13:25, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Luckily, for the first time in months, we have such an article, that flat out says rebels are in ar-Ruhaybah. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 13:53, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Sweet Jesus, the dawn is coming! lol sorry for agitating everybody. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 15:37, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
I realy think that a village of Hurriyah in the Hasakah near of Yarubiyah border crossing under control by Kurdish forces(YPG), This confirm pro opposition map deSyeacuse and here other source also confirmed this data and show that area where located this village under control by YPG. Hanibal911 ( talk) 12:43, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
It confirms it so change it Lindi29 ( talk) 15:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
This is not just my opinion and I want to see what other editors think about this. I belive the map has too many mistakes without being noticed by others. According to this map, Jabhat Al Nusra has an exclusive control of everything south of Marat Numan, gained in the past 3/4 days during the offensive.
I belive this is incorrect. We only have 100% source showing their control of Wadi Daif and the surrounding checkpoints. That being said I want to post my sources both neutral and pro-rebel.
First about SOHR Arabic SOHR wrote about JAN + other groups involved in some fights for whatever checkpoint/village. On some article they say "JAN and Islamic front" on other "Jund Al Aqsa, Islamic front and FSA", on some other "Islamic battalion". The only articles mentioning JAN independently is for Wadi Daif and checkpoints around. Jund Al Aqsa is part of Al Nusra, same as Ahrar Al Sham is part of the Islamic Front
We can't use pro opposition sources but I am reading official Islamic Front, Sham legion, Ahrar Al Sham twitter/youtube channels, and they are writting/talking about their fighters, their groups, not Jabhat Al Nusra, only mentioning them as those who participated too in small numbers.
I'm 100% sure about this. Step News posted a 8 minute conversation about the situation in Idlib and Alepo, mostly about Idlib. Al Nusra captured Wadi Daif and the surrounding checkpoints after Syrian army withdrew to the south. Jabhat Al Nusra captured Al Fajr checkpoint, then Al Daban, then Ayn Cari. They captured Tell Banasraf too and captured (even thought that's probably not true) 20 regime soldiers who were hidding on the hill.
Rebels attacked Hamidiyah from 3 sides and captured the east and the north. Sham legion first entered the base. Islamic front captured Dayr Gharbi after Syrian troops withdrew there. Islamic front and Sham legion pushed the Syiran army more to the south and captured Dar Basidas and a checkpoint on the highway (probably Al Nasih). They don't mention Mar Hitah but they say Islamic front pushed them more to the south and we know they left that area towards Morek.
Video showing Sham legion in Hamidiyah
Syria mubasher channel posted a video talking with an rebel reporter. JAN captured Wadi Daif while Islamic Front and Faylaq Sham captured locations around Hamidiyah. Same on Al Jazeera .
These sources below are from Islamic Front (Syria and Idlib province) and Ahrar Al Sham channels.
Islamic Front members in Hamidiyah Islamic Front flag in Hamidiyah Islamic Front in Hamidiyah IF in Mar Hitat etc etc .. dozens of pictures posted on their channel.
Tour trought the region Video showing IF members in Al Dahroj checkpoint (blown up by FSA members months ago), JAN wans't here. Jabhat Al Nusra in and arund Wadi Daif. Sham legion and Ahrar Sham in Hamidiyah.
Videos are only confirming what has been said in the conversation videos from Step News, Al Jazeera, Mubashar news
I know Hanibal doesn't agree about this, you can view the conversation on his page so I don't expect his comment here, I wan't to see other editors. DuckZz ( talk) 20:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
No, listen, here is what I want to do. You say "we don't know". Well of course we don't, but "they do". With they I mean the groups who participated. According to Islamic from reporters, internet channels. And according to Jabhat Al Nusra channels :
Wadi Daif, Al fajr checkpoint, Al Daban, Ajn Qari, Tell Banasrah and Al Zalana checkpoint to grey.
Hamidiyah, Basidah, Nasrih checkpoint, Al Dahroj checkpoint, Mar Hitat and Hish to green (Islamic Front, Ahrar Sham, Sham Legion, Fursan Al Haqq, 101.Division).
The more you go to the south, the more rebels there are (mostly Islamic Front). Al Nusra is concentrated on south Idlib. DuckZz ( talk) 20:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said Nusra - the battered country's Al-Qaeda branch - seized Hamidieh and Wadi Deif, the regime's largest outposts in Idlib. The jihadis advanced in coordination with Islamist rebel groups Ahrar al-Sham and Jund al-Aqsa, the Observatory said, adding that a string of villages in the area also fell. The Daily Star Yahoo News BBC Charles Lister of the Brookings Doha Center said the gains highlighted the rise of the jihadists in the province."The nature of the operations has served to underline the renewed prominence of more Islamically-minded forces in Idlib, with Jabhat (Front) al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham having played the dominant role in practically capturing the facilities," he said. Lister also said the advance may pave the way for "a major assault on Idlib city", which like most Syrian provincial capitals remains in regime hands. The gains give Al-Nusra firm control of much of Idlib province, limiting the chances of a challenge from potential rivals. Until September this year, Ahrar al-Sham had sought to distance itself from more hardline jihadists in Syria. But a September 9 explosion that killed its top leadership "pushed the group to align itself more openly with Al-Nusra". "Now the two are fighting side by side." On Monday, Ahrar al-Sham broke its silence on the September blast, blaming "a criminal group" with "international links". Abdel Rahman said this was an apparent reference to Western intelligence agencies. Naharnet Also reliable source cleara said that Abdel-Rahman told Al-Arabiya television that the Nusra Front and a number of Islamist militias, along with a small number of FSA groups, now controlled between 70 and 80 percent of Idlib province. The Daily Star So that the reliable source clearly shows that the number of moderate rebels in the Idlib province slightly. The main power in province it is Al Nusra and their allies. Source also said that Al Nusra Front and its allies defeated two leading FSA groups in Idlib province last month, the Hazm Movement and the Syrian Rebel Front, both of which have benefited from U.S. training and weaponry. Some jihadi accounts of the battle claimed the weaponry was used in the assault that began Sunday. The Daily Star Also as we know from reliable sources that in the clashes against troops in Darra province Al Nusra also participates but still we noted all cities and villages which was taken under the control of moderate rebels. Also SOHR said that Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic battalions have taken over new points in the village Basida. SOHR Also SOHR said that Jabht al-Nusra and Islamic battalions also took control on Tal Bansara and al-Naseh. SOHR And later other source said that Al Nusra and Anhar Al Sham take full control over village Basida. U.S News Also reliable source said that Al Nusra controls 70 to 80 percent territory of the province of Idlib but moderate rebels have a small presence in the province. The Daily Star And many other reliable sources indicate that it is a major offensive Al Nusra with the support of their allies. But not moderate rebels. Reuters The Daily Star that the only evidence which confirm participate moderate rebels from the DIvision 13 in the battle for a Hamidiaya military base it is a video which Islamic Front posted on YouTube where claimed that the fighters had captured at least two regime tanks during the battle. here Also as I earlier said that we also know from reliable sources that in the clashes against troops in Darra province Al Nusra also participates but still we noted all cities and villages which was taken under the control of moderate rebels. Because it was said that a crucial role in the capture of towns and villages play a moderate rebel groups (FSA) but Al Nusra just helps them. which had previously defeated moderate rebels and captured a large part of the province. The Daily Star Albawaba Hanibal911 ( talk) 21:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Sorry Hanibal, I don't want to remove the grey color from Idlib because that's like 60% of your post proving that they seized large teritories, what I don't denie. You are using sources claiming one thing while the sources show something else. Most of your talk is based on opinions, I gave you their opinions. Let other editors decide. DuckZz ( talk) 21:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm on board with your suggestion DuckZz to, in this specific case, use the publications/videos from the groups themselves to discern which locations they overran, as opposed to their allies. In the interest of not overstating the JAN phenomenon/emirate, we should try not to mark any towns grey other than ones where they are the predominant force and fully control governance. Where the sources/reports claim both JAN and any other group (even the ever ambiguous "Islamic battalions"), we should mark green with grey inner circle, or vice versa to show that said location is not EXCLUSIVELY JAN held - grey circles are for EXCLUSIVELY JAN-held sites. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 21:31, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm really tired so I'll try to respond quick to Hanibal. In your last post, you posted 4 sources. First 3 of them are the same, copy/paste text. Every one of them is quoting wrong, especially from SOHR. Read again my posts from above. You are really a weird guy because it's like you said "What do they know, those who participated, Ahrar Al Sham, Islamic Front, Sham legion and even Al Nusra channels, they have no idea what or who they are, they should read news channels" sounds pretty funny ? Don't respond because I have read your posts 10 times, you should read mine from start to here DuckZz ( talk) 21:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I know, I didn't change those areas, they are grey besides Dar Basidah. DuckZz ( talk) 21:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Hanibal911 ( talk) Last source I want to post from ORIENT NEWS, I don't even what else to do, should I call them on my mobile lol ? DuckZz ( talk) 00:05, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
So long as the SOHR posts or any source citing them also mention "Islamic battalions" or any other specific group accompanying JAN, the location should be green. That's how we've marked joint JAN-anyothergroup control for the last 3 years on our map. Grey icons are only for sites where JAN is 100% in control ie:the only group there. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 15:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
None of the sources say that though. They all say JAN "and Islamic Battalions", or "and Ahrar al-Sham". Even that dailystar article says "Abdel-Rahman told Al-Arabiya television that the Nusra Front and a number of Islamist militias, along with a small number of FSA groups, now controlled between 70 and 80 percent of Idlib province." - clearly NOT Nusra exclusively. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 16:04, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
According to this source SAA has captured this town. here. here Lindi29 ( talk) 21:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC) Even if I believe that PetoLucem is reliable, usually we don use pro-government source to change in favor of the government. Probably it is time to change this attitude. Paolowalter ( talk) 21:23, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I have further investigated the sources presented concerning the Abu Duhur events. Below is a synthesis of my findings:
1- The 7 links that were claimed reliable in a previous section are in reality a copy/paste of 3 pro-gov articles:
2- The only reliable source we have is
Elijah J. Magnier
3- There is one detailed pro-gov source from idlib:
Assad Idlib News Network (for more details about the content of the source, see
here)
4- There is one pro-rebel source:
al-Arabia
So to summarize, we have: 1 reliable source, 1 pro-rebel source, 1 detailed pro-gov source, and many “one-sentence” pro-gov sources.
The reliable source, the pro-rebel source, and the detailed pro-gov source say troops returned to airport.
The “one-sentence” pro-gov sources do not mention troops returning to airport.
At this point, I copy/paste the “rules of editing” for reminder and highlight in yellow the relevant part:
Therefore, to follow the “rules of editing”, we should use the reliable source & ignore all non-neutral sources. In addition, the only detailed pro-gov source supports the reliable source.
The picture becomes clear:
Notice that technically speaking, neither pro-gov nor pro-rebel spin is a lie… However they are both trying to mislead by omitting facts!
Therefore, we should follow the reliable source and revert back the towns around Abu Duhur to green. Tradedia talk 02:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
None of those sources disprove Tradedia's argument. He's clearly done the research and it's simple enough to open the links and see that he is right. No useable source - per the rules of editing - has been provided for keeping those towns red. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 13:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Jabhat al-Nusra and islamic battalions take over the Taftanaz Air Base. SOHR Hanibal911 ( talk) 13:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
It was taken in January 2013. lol Sohr are idiots — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.132.122.57 ( talk) 15:07, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
It says it is taken by JAN and islamic battalions, who are the islamic battalions? IF and ahrar? lol
To grey? Clearly the firefight was an isolated incident, as JAN-Islamic Front-the largest remaining secular groups just cooperated in the recent offensive. I suggest grey instead of green because it was JAN fighting there and it is right in the "heartland" of the mini-state they carved out of the SRF Boredwhytekid ( talk) 18:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
I know, but it's been 3 weeks and the SRF is gone. Boredwhytekid ( talk) 19:05, 18 December 2014 (UTC)