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Continuous distillation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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I just added a ChE schematic of a continuous fractional distillation tower I just made and a general stub designation to this short stub of an article.
1. Does anyone know of a more specific stub designation that can be used? If so, go ahead and change it.
2. Take a look at the new pic I just added and if you can suggest any corrections, let me know; I can fix it. This pic was made in the same style as the 3 existing pics in Batch distillation, which were made by User:GM-BP, except the lossless *.png file format was used instead if the lossy *.jpg file format. Please don't make it fuzzy by turning it into a *.jpg file anywhere along the line. If you have Windows XP, you should be able to edit *.png files using Windows-Paint, if nothing else.
H Padleckas 18:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The best stub category I could come up with was "Chemical Reaction." There isn't one for chemical engineering/processes. NielsenGW 18:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I could also make a similar introductory pic for use at the top of this article with a shorter tower and only 2 fraction outputs, 1 distillate fraction output (instead of 4) and 1 bottoms fraction. The 4-distillate pic would still be used futher down showing muliple fractionation like in oil refineries. Any comments?
Finally, the lab fractional distillation pic in the Fractional distillation shows somewhat primitive lab technique. If nobody is working on a better pic, I plan to try to make a better pic (someday-LOL). However, if you're already working on a better pic, tell me so I won't bother. H Padleckas 00:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello to all:
Dirk Beetstra believed quite strongly that this article need to be re-organzied and explained better to make it more understandable, especially by non-specialists. He contacted me and, after about 3-4 days of intense collaboration of working in his sandbox along with comments from H Padleckas, we agreed on a new version. That new version was just used to over-write the old version. It pretty much contains everything that was in the previous version in a re-arrangement of the order of sections. It also contains a new "Examples" section. - mbeychok 16:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I saw your addition to the principle, though the line is clear to me, I feel that some things might have a better place in the design and theory part, whilst keeping the principle 'simple'. I know and understand that this has nothing to do with a real-life continuous distillation (and I have discussed this with MBeychok as well), but I believe that the principle does not have to be the explanation of a full-fetched system, a continuous distillation is also a continuous distillation without plates, and without reflux, though it is not industrially used as such, and the separation is very lousy, but I think we should not confuse 'principle' with 'operation'. Hence I tried to split these two paragraphs out in the sandbox version. I see that your edits give a complete picture, but I am afraid that it confuses people who are not familiar in the field (there are now a couple of run-on sentences, which require some concentration to read). I know that I am giving an outsider view, but I am only trying to give my views as such, while I am trying to understand what those big towers are now actually doing. I see forward to more improvements in the article. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 19:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
LouisBB, the reason I changed your wording about pumping the feed into a distillation column and instead used the word "routed into" was to make it more general. When the bottoms of a depropanizer column which operates at a much higher pressure flows into a next column such as a debutanizer or depentanizer operating at a much lower pressure, a pump is not needed at all. There are just as many cases of that situation as there are cases of needing a pump. That's why "routing" is a better choice of wording than "pumping". After all, we are concerned in this article with distillation rather than exactly how the the feed is gotten into the column.
The feed does not necessarily begin to boil when it enters a column because it "expands". Columns feeds may be sub-cooled at the column's operating temperature and pressure, or they may be saturated (at their boiling point), or they may be partially vaporized, or they may be superheated as they enter. If they are sub-cooled, then they will be heated and vaporized by the heat input into the column's reboiler. If they are saturated, then they will be boiled and vaorized, again by the reboilers heat input. Only when a feed is at a much higher pressure than the column, will there be any flashing and vaporizing as it enters. Again, to be general rather than specific, we should avoid discussing expansion which is specific to only some cases.
Please read the McCabe-Thiele method article and read the section on q-lines that explains the different thermal conditions of a tower's feeds. Also, please read the Flash evaporation article to read about flashing of high-pressure liquids as they expand.
Before I retired after a 50-year career, I quite literally designed hundreds of continuous distillation columns and the cases discussed above (pumping not always needed and various feed thermal conditions) are quite common in any refinery or large petrochemical plants and other industrial facilities.
I am going to change those wordings back as I had edited him and ask you to please keep in mind that the article must be generalized to fit all cases. Also, the linking to other existing article is better in some cases than trying to cover in one article what is already covered in other articles. Besides this Continuous distillation article, there are articles on Distillation, Fractional distillation, Fractionating column, McCabe-Thiele method, Fenske equation, Batch distillation, and many others .... and it is well to keep that in mind. It would also be well to read them all to familiarize yourself with what they cover. This Continuous distillation article is not meant to cover the entire spectrum of distillation ... only large, industrial continuously operating columns. With best wishes to a fellow retiree, mbeychok 17:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
After the latest addition of LouisBB, a second rewrite of the article has been performed. As MBeychok described after the previous rewrite, I believe quite strongly that it is possible to explain the majority of this article so non-specialists can understand this subject. MBeychok and I have again collaborated in the rewrite, and we have now agreed on this version, which incorporates the additions and some of the suggestions made by LouisBB.
Some short explanations of the intentions: The article now starts with an introduction which tells what this article is about, continuous distillation, which is one of the major separation techniques in the chemical industry. After that follows the principle, which explains, as the title says, the principle. The description in this section is not a description of a real, operating process, to use continuous distillation for complex mixtures several other enhancements to the process have to be made, and these are described in the following section 'design and operation'. It describes in a bit more detail how column feed works, enhancements on the separation process, and some overhead arrangements. Finally an example of an actual process (distillation of crude oil) is described, which is intended to show the true complexity of an actual distillation. For more information, the discussion and history can still be found in my sandbox. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 21:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Previously on my Talk page, I was asked to review this article, which I did; and I said I would add some explanation here and there, but that it would take me a while since I was busy. Well, I finally got a chance to add my $2 worth to that article. I wrote an introduction that explained what continuous distillation is in about as simple a way as I could write it for the "average guy," and I moved the industrial discussion to a new section called "Industrial application." I also changed the statement that said the system was kept in a constant equilibrium to the system is kept in a steady state, and then briefly explained steady state as it pertains to continuous distillation. I put in a couple other minor changes. Another thing I was thinking about was whether reflux ratio should be defined in the "Reflux" subsection.
I practically finished a modification of Quantockgoblin's "lab" diagram of "Distillation scheme with column", previously inserted as Image 2 in Dirk Beetstra's draft of "Continuous distillation" then taken out. I don't like it that much, but I think I'll upload it sometime into Wikipedia anyway, but I think I'll leave it up to somebody else to insert into an article. Other than that, I guess I'm pretty much done with this article. H Padleckas 18:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Walkerma, we're getting a bit too far indented, so I started a new header about your suggested renaming. We once did have two examples, but one was deleted. How about we leave the one example as you suggested and change the heading from "Examples" to simply "Crude oil distillation" which is a bit more brief? Just a suggestion, I don't feel too strongly about it. - mbeychok 07:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
A good article has the following attributes.
1. It is well written.
2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
3. It is broad in its coverage.
4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
5. It is stable, i.e. it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of ongoing edit wars.
6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
Pass. Congratulations. TimVickers 00:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Malleus Fatuorum ( talk) 14:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
hello; I can not understand how the oil after it entered the column begins shines even transported to the top without a force that helped him.thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.221.16.77 ( talk) 15:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The reference to Fractionation Research, Inc seems suspiciously (sp?) self-serving. I don't comment on much here, but while reading the article this paragraph (appearing at the end of the section "Plates or Trays") seemed to represent a commercial interest without adding any value to the article.
Scott ( talk) 10:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This 2006 listing contains huge amounts of uncited material, failing GA criterion 2b). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 04:03, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Continuous distillation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | Continuous distillation was one of the Engineering and technology good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
I just added a ChE schematic of a continuous fractional distillation tower I just made and a general stub designation to this short stub of an article.
1. Does anyone know of a more specific stub designation that can be used? If so, go ahead and change it.
2. Take a look at the new pic I just added and if you can suggest any corrections, let me know; I can fix it. This pic was made in the same style as the 3 existing pics in Batch distillation, which were made by User:GM-BP, except the lossless *.png file format was used instead if the lossy *.jpg file format. Please don't make it fuzzy by turning it into a *.jpg file anywhere along the line. If you have Windows XP, you should be able to edit *.png files using Windows-Paint, if nothing else.
H Padleckas 18:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
The best stub category I could come up with was "Chemical Reaction." There isn't one for chemical engineering/processes. NielsenGW 18:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I could also make a similar introductory pic for use at the top of this article with a shorter tower and only 2 fraction outputs, 1 distillate fraction output (instead of 4) and 1 bottoms fraction. The 4-distillate pic would still be used futher down showing muliple fractionation like in oil refineries. Any comments?
Finally, the lab fractional distillation pic in the Fractional distillation shows somewhat primitive lab technique. If nobody is working on a better pic, I plan to try to make a better pic (someday-LOL). However, if you're already working on a better pic, tell me so I won't bother. H Padleckas 00:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello to all:
Dirk Beetstra believed quite strongly that this article need to be re-organzied and explained better to make it more understandable, especially by non-specialists. He contacted me and, after about 3-4 days of intense collaboration of working in his sandbox along with comments from H Padleckas, we agreed on a new version. That new version was just used to over-write the old version. It pretty much contains everything that was in the previous version in a re-arrangement of the order of sections. It also contains a new "Examples" section. - mbeychok 16:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi, I saw your addition to the principle, though the line is clear to me, I feel that some things might have a better place in the design and theory part, whilst keeping the principle 'simple'. I know and understand that this has nothing to do with a real-life continuous distillation (and I have discussed this with MBeychok as well), but I believe that the principle does not have to be the explanation of a full-fetched system, a continuous distillation is also a continuous distillation without plates, and without reflux, though it is not industrially used as such, and the separation is very lousy, but I think we should not confuse 'principle' with 'operation'. Hence I tried to split these two paragraphs out in the sandbox version. I see that your edits give a complete picture, but I am afraid that it confuses people who are not familiar in the field (there are now a couple of run-on sentences, which require some concentration to read). I know that I am giving an outsider view, but I am only trying to give my views as such, while I am trying to understand what those big towers are now actually doing. I see forward to more improvements in the article. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 19:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
LouisBB, the reason I changed your wording about pumping the feed into a distillation column and instead used the word "routed into" was to make it more general. When the bottoms of a depropanizer column which operates at a much higher pressure flows into a next column such as a debutanizer or depentanizer operating at a much lower pressure, a pump is not needed at all. There are just as many cases of that situation as there are cases of needing a pump. That's why "routing" is a better choice of wording than "pumping". After all, we are concerned in this article with distillation rather than exactly how the the feed is gotten into the column.
The feed does not necessarily begin to boil when it enters a column because it "expands". Columns feeds may be sub-cooled at the column's operating temperature and pressure, or they may be saturated (at their boiling point), or they may be partially vaporized, or they may be superheated as they enter. If they are sub-cooled, then they will be heated and vaporized by the heat input into the column's reboiler. If they are saturated, then they will be boiled and vaorized, again by the reboilers heat input. Only when a feed is at a much higher pressure than the column, will there be any flashing and vaporizing as it enters. Again, to be general rather than specific, we should avoid discussing expansion which is specific to only some cases.
Please read the McCabe-Thiele method article and read the section on q-lines that explains the different thermal conditions of a tower's feeds. Also, please read the Flash evaporation article to read about flashing of high-pressure liquids as they expand.
Before I retired after a 50-year career, I quite literally designed hundreds of continuous distillation columns and the cases discussed above (pumping not always needed and various feed thermal conditions) are quite common in any refinery or large petrochemical plants and other industrial facilities.
I am going to change those wordings back as I had edited him and ask you to please keep in mind that the article must be generalized to fit all cases. Also, the linking to other existing article is better in some cases than trying to cover in one article what is already covered in other articles. Besides this Continuous distillation article, there are articles on Distillation, Fractional distillation, Fractionating column, McCabe-Thiele method, Fenske equation, Batch distillation, and many others .... and it is well to keep that in mind. It would also be well to read them all to familiarize yourself with what they cover. This Continuous distillation article is not meant to cover the entire spectrum of distillation ... only large, industrial continuously operating columns. With best wishes to a fellow retiree, mbeychok 17:14, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
After the latest addition of LouisBB, a second rewrite of the article has been performed. As MBeychok described after the previous rewrite, I believe quite strongly that it is possible to explain the majority of this article so non-specialists can understand this subject. MBeychok and I have again collaborated in the rewrite, and we have now agreed on this version, which incorporates the additions and some of the suggestions made by LouisBB.
Some short explanations of the intentions: The article now starts with an introduction which tells what this article is about, continuous distillation, which is one of the major separation techniques in the chemical industry. After that follows the principle, which explains, as the title says, the principle. The description in this section is not a description of a real, operating process, to use continuous distillation for complex mixtures several other enhancements to the process have to be made, and these are described in the following section 'design and operation'. It describes in a bit more detail how column feed works, enhancements on the separation process, and some overhead arrangements. Finally an example of an actual process (distillation of crude oil) is described, which is intended to show the true complexity of an actual distillation. For more information, the discussion and history can still be found in my sandbox. -- Dirk Beetstra T C 21:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Previously on my Talk page, I was asked to review this article, which I did; and I said I would add some explanation here and there, but that it would take me a while since I was busy. Well, I finally got a chance to add my $2 worth to that article. I wrote an introduction that explained what continuous distillation is in about as simple a way as I could write it for the "average guy," and I moved the industrial discussion to a new section called "Industrial application." I also changed the statement that said the system was kept in a constant equilibrium to the system is kept in a steady state, and then briefly explained steady state as it pertains to continuous distillation. I put in a couple other minor changes. Another thing I was thinking about was whether reflux ratio should be defined in the "Reflux" subsection.
I practically finished a modification of Quantockgoblin's "lab" diagram of "Distillation scheme with column", previously inserted as Image 2 in Dirk Beetstra's draft of "Continuous distillation" then taken out. I don't like it that much, but I think I'll upload it sometime into Wikipedia anyway, but I think I'll leave it up to somebody else to insert into an article. Other than that, I guess I'm pretty much done with this article. H Padleckas 18:32, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Walkerma, we're getting a bit too far indented, so I started a new header about your suggested renaming. We once did have two examples, but one was deleted. How about we leave the one example as you suggested and change the heading from "Examples" to simply "Crude oil distillation" which is a bit more brief? Just a suggestion, I don't feel too strongly about it. - mbeychok 07:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
A good article has the following attributes.
1. It is well written.
2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
3. It is broad in its coverage.
4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
5. It is stable, i.e. it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of ongoing edit wars.
6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
Pass. Congratulations. TimVickers 00:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Malleus Fatuorum ( talk) 14:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
hello; I can not understand how the oil after it entered the column begins shines even transported to the top without a force that helped him.thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.221.16.77 ( talk) 15:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
The reference to Fractionation Research, Inc seems suspiciously (sp?) self-serving. I don't comment on much here, but while reading the article this paragraph (appearing at the end of the section "Plates or Trays") seemed to represent a commercial interest without adding any value to the article.
Scott ( talk) 10:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This 2006 listing contains huge amounts of uncited material, failing GA criterion 2b). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 04:03, 31 January 2024 (UTC)