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The picture of the "petroskoi kids" behind the cattle fence is a known propaganda picture staged by soviet autohrities, why are we using it in the article?-- Posse72 21:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Still, deliberate use of propaganda pictures shows a certain preconceived attitude, which should have no place in an unbiased article. What would people say if similar pictures prepared by the Nazi party propaganda office would be pasted to history articles, with the text like "picture possibly taken for dis-information purposes". 130.231.167.174 ( talk) 16:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)Wettim
2007 (UTC)
Interesting logic. Than it will be no problem for you to articulate without making moral choices, why 200 dead Finns deserve a strong picture, unlike thousands of victims of Finnish concentration camps or over a million of victims of the siege of Leningrad. To your points:
Dear friends,
The Arbitration committee has made a decision in a case related to this article. The decision includes a general restriction for engaging in any disruptive behaviour. In particular, we should make sure that we edit this talk page more civilly than we have done in the previous week. Otherwise, any of us may get an editing restriction and even a subsequent summary ban. -- MPorciusCato 06:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Ill want references that says "that Mannerheim and Hitler planned there strategy together." As to my knowledege Bobby is upp to great discovery with huge politic/historical impact if he could prove his claim! Quit amazing due to the fact that Bobby hasnt read one book about the subject. -- Posse72 ( talk) 14:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Posse72. When have I said "that Mannerheim and Hitler planned there strategy together"?. regards. Bob BScar23625 ( talk) 15:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
ps - please leave my contribution at normal size and do not shrink me.
Your imbicil communist basterd, could you at least prove your source.-- Posse72 ( talk) 15:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
My relation to continuation war is the same as most Karelians, it was an oppertunity to get back the stolen land. In my intresst for the subject i have read well over 100 book, seen film, read newspapper atricles. So im am no novice to the subject. The conflict concernse me personally because our familly lost its home, put a prospering and well respected familly in to misery, and killed sevral familly members. An familly member visited our house durning the 90s and was shooked to see that the "new owners" hade dismanteled the houses and sent it to Russia, and worst of all, the have demolished the graveyard where my greatgrandpaa is buried, and used the grave stones to build roads with. (And our familly did at that time share the greek ortodhox belife)
Me and Illythr doesnot share the same view, but ill can respect his view thou he hade read about the conflict, and present the Russian view of the matters. Illythr both proves sources and and a wider picture.
That more that one can say about Bobby, he has for a great while now running an own agenda very simller to a "Stalin appologist" one. Out rages claim like comperaing Finland with Rhodesia (Witch is redicules as Finland was the first contry in Europe with "universal suffraget" making it trully the first with one wo(men) one vote ), and uselly without any source. Wikipedia is a encyclopedia, meaning that we should prove our claims with sources. Well Bobby have admited that he dont have read even ONE book about the subject.
As this RAF articel that Bobby put inb the article he claims that it was some sort of intervention aginst Finland. The RAF squadron was there to secure the convoys, not to attack Finland. When the two countries finaly went to war the Squadron was removed. Ill can prov this by sources.
Also we see how Bobbys own research. If he had bother to read anything about the event he would know that the meating was donr on Mannerheims 75th Birthday, Mannerheim was irritaded ower it, Hitler did not make any atempts to make Finland more active in the war. By puting a picture as Bobby does with the captation of "Planing strategy" he forge the history and and deminish the accuracy of Wikipedia.-- Posse72 ( talk) 15:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
The article says "The Finns did not take any anti-Jewish measures in Finland, despite repeated requests from Nazi Germany." according to source #14, but source #13 says that few jews were given to Gestapo and atleast some of them were sent to Auschwitz. Also apparently few thousand PoWs were extradited to Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.226.119 ( talk) 03:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Posse72. You write :
... the primitiv warfare of eastern cultures, and phenomen as mass rape and child murder seen recently in Balkans and chechnya. During the winterwar in the very few occations where Finnish civilians where cought by the Red Army there are ... horrible accounts of Finnish women murded by as stck beeing drow th there genitsals.
This is terrible!. Do you feel that the problem was caused by (a) the undeveloped nature of Slav societies, or (b) the nature of communism?. Or, is it possible that (a) and (b) are related in some way?. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 ( talk) 15:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Alice. Rebuke accepted. I have banned myself from editing this article and its associated discussion page for 56 days - unless I am unreasonably provoked. Bob BScar23625 ( talk) 08:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I added Finnish POW's to the infobox, using [ [4]]. In dealing with World War II, this book is a modern study of declassified Soviet archives of the period. It is probably one of the most authorative sources on data about axis POW's in Soviet captivity. The 2,377 number, however, might exclude those soldiers who were captured, but didn't arrive to POW camps. What do Finnish sources say about this matter? With respect, Ko Soi IX ( talk) 15:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. Another Russian atrociti over 1000 Finnish soldiers that vanished!-- Posse72 ( talk) 15:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
This proposal was made on 18 June 2007, but there doesn’t seem much enthusiasm for it; I can’t find any opinion anywhere about it.
I am removing the Merge proposal here, and there.
I would be opposed to a merger, particularly from here to there; The advance in Northern Finland was bigger than Silver Fox, (which was just the German operation in that theatre), and covered a longer time period.
Also, the Advance… section deals with Finnish actions, in the context of their Continuation War, whilst Silver Fox has the German context.
I am posting this message there also.
Xyl 54 (
talk)
17:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
As we have seen from many reliable Finnish sources, the Soviet warfare was full with over brutal messurs, like childmurder, canibalism, murder of Finnish P.O.W., Soviet troop murders of Finnish wounded soldiers at a military hospital in Viipuri in 1944, murder of civilian, terror bombing campaign aimed at civilian targets, attack on on neutral Sweden, faked occations when Soviet solders pretended to give up in order to ambush etc. To be an objective article we need some information on this. -- Posse72 ( talk) 14:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This would cover the most importent aspect of this campaign.
BTW does any of our Russian friends know how many destroyers the KBF hade 22.6.1941?-- Posse72 ( talk) 00:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
And of curse sources!-- Posse72 ( talk) 00:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello.
Could I recommend the creation of a Finnish invasion of the Soviet Union article which would cover all aspects of the Continuation War roughly anagolous with Barbarossa (June - December 1941)? It would be easier to read a coherent whole then each of the daughter articles presented. It would also help readers to guage relative importance of the various operations in comparison with each other (particularily since most of the initial battle/operation articles are missing numbers). Oberiko ( talk) 15:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is pretty tough to read as it jumps around alot. Can I recommend the following framework?
Oberiko ( talk) 19:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure the Russian name should be present here, since, as the second paragraph of the article states, this war is not known in Russia under that name. In fact, there's no particular name for it, the warfare in those areas is usually referred to as "Leningrad front" and "Karelian front" of the Great Patriotic war. The name in Russian is merely a translation of the Finnish one. -- Illythr ( talk) 23:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
After reading all the comments here, I'm thinking you guys could probably do with a few other articles to spread some of the content around. May I suggest the following?
Thoughts? Oberiko ( talk) 16:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Looks like the results are under contention. May I suggest we go for "Soviet victory"? The other Allies had very little role in the Continuation War. Oberiko ( talk) 14:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
“Gentlemen, you can’t fight here, this is the war room!”
Is there any room for agreement, here?
The result previously said “Moscow Armistice” and Posse72, Lysy and Kurt Leyman want it to stay that way
Other proposals are “Allied Victory” from Mixer and MPorcius Cato, And “Soviet Victory” from Nirvana77, (have I missed anyone out?)
I suggest it can’t stay as “Moscow Armistice”; that isn’t a result, really. The First World War ended, technically, with an armistice, but it was seen as, and is recorded as, a victory by the then allies.
If the sticking point is whether it was the Allies who won, then yes, Finland wasn’t at war with all the allies (America, for example); but she was at war with some of them, Britain and the USSR. So “Allied victory” isn’t inaccurate.
If the contention of this page is that Finland was fighting a separate war, for her own ends, against the Soviet Union, then the result is “Soviet Victory”; the Moscow armistice page is clear that ther was nothing in for Finland except for the Russians to stop fighting them.
So, what’s it to be? Comments?
Xyl 54 ( talk) 17:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Can I propose a freeze on editing the "result" part of the infobox until a thorough discussion's been had? At the moment it just looks like a three-way revert party. -- Stlemur ( talk) 13:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Obviously, I would support Soviet victory. With respect, Ko Soi IX ( talk) 03:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Could you please extend your statement about the winterwar. -- Posse72 ( talk) 18:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
No, because Finlands war goals was not the same as Nazigermany, US and UK admited that. As stated before supported by Finnish and western military historians Finland would have without any problems capatured the city of Leningrad, if they hade decided in September 1941, pls dont spreed unsuported russian urbans legend here. ALSO modern western hisorians as Max Hasting and Norman Davies make a destinct diffrence beetwen the Soviet and the western allies, where Finland wargoals did not collied with the one of the western allies. Futher dont forget that Soviet made a serious atempt to capture Finland as late as the summer of 1944, witch failed misserbly resulting in the dececive Finnish victories in Tienhaara, Bay of Viipuri, Tali-Ihantala, Vousalmi, Netijärvi and Ilomatsi.So the Soviet failed in conquering Finland how can we call this a Soviet victory?????-- Posse72 ( talk) 17:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Defence Forces acknowledge the complete defeat of the Finnish Armed Forces in the war against the U.S.S.R. and announce the unconditional surrender of Finland, requesting the cessation of acts of war. The Government of the U.S.S.R. agrees to formulate the terms, on which it is ready to halt the acts of war against Finland, because the Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Defence Forces fully accept the demands of the Government of the U.S.S.R., and because they commit themselves into abstaining from preventing acts of war by the Allied against Germany and other Axis powers. On the basis of the above, the representatives of the Supreme Command of the Soviet Defence Forces (on one hand), and the representatives of the Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces (on the other hand), all of whom have the required authorization, have undersigned the document below on the unconditional surrender of Finland :
1. WAR TERMS
A. GENERAL WAR TERMS
1. Hereby the Finnish land, naval, and air forces, regardless of their location, surrender unconditionally.
2. The Finnish Government and Supreme Command cease acts of war against the Allied in all theatres of war on land, on sea and in the air after one hour from signing this document.
3. The Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will give without delay to the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces complete information on the locations, orders of battle and equipment of all the units of the Finnish land, air, and naval forces, wherever these are located, as well as the military units of its allies, located in Finnish territory, or co-operating with it.
4. The Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces gives to the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces complete information on the location of mines, mined obstacles, and other obstacles of movement prepared by the Finnish Armed Forces or it allies on land, on sea, and in the air, including mined obstacles in the Baltic Sea, the Barents Sea, Lake Ladoga, and Lake Onega as well as other waterways. The clearing of mines and removal of obstacles will be carried out by the Finnish land and naval forces under the supervision of and in the order and schedule as ordered by the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces.
5. As this document takes effect, the Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces commit themselves without delay in calling to Finland all Finnish troops on other fronts and in disarming them.
6. The German military compounds and units operating in Finnish territory must immediately be disarmed and interned. The staff in command of these troops and the whole personnel of German headquarters must be detained. The Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will give all possible assistance to the Supreme Command of the Soviet Defence Forces in the disarming of these military troops. In this context must be taken into account the possibility of Finnish Armed Forces participating in the disarming of German military troops on the demand of the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces. The representatives of the Supreme Command of the German Military Forces at Finnish headquarters and military units must be immediately arrested and handed over to the Supreme Command of the Soviet Defence Forces. The Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will forbid transportations of German military troops through Finnish territory and provision of weapons, equipment, and all other supplies to German military troops, and their local supplying.
7. The Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will carry out the disarming of all Finnish land, air, and naval forces according to the orders, schedule, and sequence given by the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces, under its supervision.
8. Since the moment of signing this document until when the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces has taken under its control all communications connections in Finland, all radio broadcasts in Finnish territory are forbidden, and Finnish telegraph, telephone, and radio connections to other countries will be cut off.
9. The Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will secure the transportations of military troops of the U.S.S.R. in Finnish territory by rail and by other means of transportation and the needed supplies to the troops.
10. To fulfil the terms of surrender and to secure the interests of the U.S.S.R., the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces – by its own military forces and at its own discretion – will occupy partially or fully the territory of Finland, her harbours, the archipelago of Åland, and the islands of the Gulf of Finland. The Government of the U.S.S.R. will make use of all the rights of an occupying power in the occupied territories of Finland. The Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces will publish its own orders and directives. The Finnish Government and the Finnish people will by all means try to contribute to the execution of these orders and directives. To serve this aim, the Finnish Government will without delay give an order to all the authorities of the central and local government, to the judicial system, public organisations, and all civil servants to remain in their previous positions, to obey orders unconditionally, and to carry out their duties conscientiously, until the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces gives its directives.
11. In the occupied territories of Finland the maintenance of order and peace will be the responsibility of the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces. In the unoccupied Finnish territories the above will be the responsibility of the Finnish Government.
12. The Finnish Government will commit itself to carrying out such legislative and other measures, as deemed necessary by the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces in fulfilling the terms of this document.
13. The Finnish Government will cover all expenses of the occupation.'
Unfortunatly things didnot go the Soviet way.-- Posse72 ( talk) 19:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
This the following from a quick Google Book search:
I guess we are getting closer here. I think that all agree, that the result wasn't a Soviet victory like Soviet achieved against Germany, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia. Right? Also, I guess also Posse agree, that Soviet Union was in a stronger position vis-a-vis Finland after the war as it was before. Correct? By referring both Tomas Ries ("Cold Will") and Max Jacobsson, also Finland exited from the war in a stronger position vis-a-vis Soviet Union as it was before the war. We should also remember, that Great Britain exited the war in much weaker position relative to other countries than it was before the war. It is clear by the text of the peace treaties, that Soviet Union won the war, but naturally, that is not the whole story... -- Whiskey ( talk) 09:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
(I’ve put this here out of sequence, as it fits better with the above than the below)
I’ve tried to run down some of these sources; the Norman Davies book is fairly opinionated; which is not to say it’s wrong, just that it’s hardly a neutral source.
The Finnish sources probably aren’t very useful on the English WP unless there’s an English translation (I haven't found any); and they run the risk of being partisan.
There seems to be very little on the subject altogether. Chris Bellamy’s book on the war in the east gives just two pages to Finland; does anyone know any good books?
Xyl 54 (
talk)
15:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to get a quick straw poll here. List alternatives and which one(s) you support.
Options
Discussion
There's no need to artificially assign the result at all. Not every conflict has to have the winners. In this case both sides lost, and neither fulfilled its assumed goals. Davydoff ( talk) 18:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
This discussion is 10 pages long (38 kb); Is this make-our-minds-up time?
I would have gone for a simple “ soviet victory”; the Finnish success was in keeping it from “total soviet victory”.
And it’s consistent with the view of this conflict being essentially between Finland and the USSR, which is implicit in the article.
However, if you think mentioning the armistice is important, then “Soviet Victory (Moscow Armistice)”.
Xyl 54 (
talk)
17:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I haven't had the energy to read through it all in detail, but considering the Soviets originally started all of this with their original unprovoked attack and did not wind up subjugating Finland as they did the Baltics (Finland having been offered the same terms of "mutual assistance" which they refused), I really can't see how from a practical basis this is a Soviet victory since they did not attain their original aim ("re-take" Finland, which had been a province of the tsarist empire). And to suggest "Soviet Union and allies" as victors implies that Stalin's original aggression was Allied-supported. — PētersV ( talk) 01:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
What does the phrase "During the last half of 1942 the number of detainees dropped quickly to 15,000" mean? Does it mean that the interned died? If so, how come the total toll is 4000-7000, not 9500? If not, than what happened to them? Basically, the wording is very inexact. With respect, Ko Soi IX ( talk) 04:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
“…so
Operation Kilpapurjehdus (Sail Race) was launched…”
“sail race “ is nice, and presumably an exact translation, but the English equivalent is probably "Regatta".
Anyway, I’ve seen this operation referred to as such, so I’ve changed it here, and on the other page as well.
Xyl 54 (
talk)
12:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Remove big parts of the UK involment to own article.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV#Undue_weight this section gives to much weight to psuedo events!-- Posse72 ( talk) 13:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Allright, this question has been up for over a week, and no one is aginst the proposal, so Ill start moving the section of RAF to the RAF 151 Wing based at Murmansk article.-- Posse72 ( talk) 17:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
...furthermore the US did not declare war on Finland when they went to war with the Axis countries and, together with UK, pressed Stalin in the Tehran Conference to acknowledge Finnish independence. - eh, what's this? Did Soviet Union cease to recognize Finland at some stage of the war? -- Illythr ( talk) 18:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Posse72 ( talk) 19:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be great difficulties to understand the Finnish situation among English-speaking people who naturally have learned to see the WWII from the perspective of the allied. Every now and then I've seen somebody suggesting that the faith of theses countries during the war were quite similar: both countries were attacked by a dictator, both countries allied themselves with another dictator in order to fight the first one, and both countries, after a short more peaceful period, attacked the latter dictator trying to bring him down to his knees. Perhaps the biggest difference is that the UK succeeded in doing that. I don't know, perhaps this analogy would help to understand ... but then again it doesn't really sound "encyclopedic" enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.27.70.16 ( talk) 11:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Finns came out victorious from the battle fields of the Continuation War, but - after fire had seized - they agreed to some rather heavy concessions, to reach a solid peace.
Importantly - however -, Finland had succeeded in her goal to save her independence and sovereignty, by preventing the take-over attempts of USSR, launched by two massive attacks by the Red Army, one initiating the Winter War on November 30, 1939 - lasting until March 13, 1940 -, and another initiating the Continuation War on June 25, 1941 - lasting until September 19, 1944.
Out of all warring nations in Europe during WW2, west from USSR and besides England, Finland was the only one whose capital was never occupied during the entire World War. Furthermore, whereas all other European nations bordering USSR ended up either becoming part of it, or were forced into becoming it's satellites following WW2, Finland - despite of its longest border with USSR - continued as a sovereign democracy throughout WW2, and beyond.
USSR - on the other hand - fell far from its objective, conquering Finland, a goal set forth in Moscow on August 23, 1939, by signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between USSR and Germany. Two days before, Stalin had spelled out his plan to the Soviet State Duma.
To rescue Finland's second largest city from destruction, and to take the fighting to the nearby rural areas instead, the Finns had executed a strategic abandonment of Viipuri in just few hours' time on June 20, 1944, using delaying tactics. The day's fighting in Viipuri was brought to a halt by 16:40, leaving only 120 Finns dead or missing in action (Eeva Tammi, 8/2006).
Following the abandonment of Viipuri, all the war's final nine major battles were victorious for the Finns. Furthermore, ever since the start of the Continuation War, the Soviets had not been able to cross the preceding - 1940 - Finnish-Soviet border during the entire war, except for a short-lived moment in the very final major battle at Ilomantsi in 1944, where the Red Army suffered a devastating loss, when two of its divisions were fully decimated and shattered, as the Soviets were pushed back.
A narrow - but massive - Soviet spearhead on the Karelian Isthmus had been stopped earlier by the Finns in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala. On other sectors, the Finns were on the Soviet soil when guns turned down at the war's end. Of the territory eventually ceded to USSR, the Red Army had won only a fraction in battles. Thus - from a military point of view -, Finland clearly came out a winner of the war.
Yet, if Finland were to be portrayed as an ally of Germany - an aim of the post-WW2 propagandist history interpretation of KGB -, Finland indeed could be viewed to at least have been on the losing side of WW2.
However, there never was an ally treaty or a pact signed between Finland and Germany. Although the two nations shared a common enemy, their objectives and strategies were very different.
Finns wanted to live, and to protect their sovereignty. In order to save themselves from the destiny of their Baltic neighbors, they knew there was no other choice - following the peace treaty of the Winter War - but to begin preparing themselves for another Soviet attack.
Another Soviet offensive was inevitable, unless the Finns were to surrender to all Soviet demands - and that would have meant disaster for Finland. Signs of a renewed Soviet attack were everywhere, as the Soviets had not paid much respect to promises disclosed in the end of the Winter War.
During the so called Interim Peace period - the short-lived truce between the Winter War and the Continuation War - the Soviets had lauched a campaign to manipulate the Finnish political decision making processes, including naming of the highest ranking Finnish government officials. What the Soviets had not been able to gain in the battles of the Winter War, they tried taking during the following truce, without firing a bullet.
At this point, the Soviet tactics also included numerous border violations against Finland. Additionally, the Soviets had began demanding control of strategically vital parts of Southern Finnish railroads, while - at the same time - the Red Army continued building up forces by the nations' border.
By now, all the Baltic nations and Norway and Denmark had become occupied by either the Germans or the Soviets. Even in theory, Germany now was the only place, from where the Finns could acquire material for their defense.
Reluctantly - left with no alternative -, the Finns now agreed to a minimum level of cooperation with the Nazis. However, the Nazis' key proposals for strategic cooperation were turned down by the Finns.
Besides not handing over any of the Finnish Jews to the Nazis (note: eight non-Finnish Jews seeking political asylum from Finland were turned down), the Finns refused to join Germany's - nearly successful - Siege of Leningrad, in one of the most critical operations of WW2.
Based on Mannerheim's orders, the Finns also held back from interrupting the Allied "lifeline" of help over Lake Ladoga, which delivered desperately needed supplies to the Soviet defenders of Leningrad. Furthermore - based on Mannerheim's orders -, the Finns freezed their counter-offensive to the level of River Syväri (Svir), a tributary to Lake Ladoga.
The Finns also held back from cutting down the Murmansk railroad near the Finnish-Soviet border, along which massive amounts of American materials were transported to the Soviets.
All this - and much more - was done on behalf of the Finns, not to interfere with the Allies' war against Germany, despite the fact that the Allied arms transported close by the Finnish border regularly ended up being used against the Finns themselves, not only against the Nazis.
In several ways, the Finns made an important contribution to the Allied war efforts against the Nazis. For the most part of the war, the Germans were engaged only to operations in Northern Finland, while - at the same time - the Finns themselves kept the Allied supply lines open in the South.
By not crossing the Finnish-Soviet border into Leningrad, and by allowing the Allied supply lines to operate freely by their borders, the Finns prohibited a full Nazi encirclement of the City of Leningrad - during over 900 days' siege, thus denying a huge stratecig and moral victory from the Nazis.
USSR's attempt to occupy Finland in the Winter War - starting in 1939 - had been pre-approved by Adolf Hitler, in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. On his visit to Berlin, November 12-13, 1940, the Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov sought for a renewed Hitler's approval, this time for the continuation of the Winter War (to be named Continuation War by the contemporaries), a continued Soviet take-over campaign over Finland. Nevertheless, Hitler no longer approved.
During the following four years, it was up to the Finns themselves to show their own disapproval. By August 1944, it had finally been made clear to Joseph Stalin, that Finland could not be beaten militarily, and there would not be a Soviet occupation of Finland. The Finns had pushed the Red Army back behind their borders, and had held it there until the conditions for peace were to be negotiated and agreed upon.
On the critical Leningrad sector, however, the final battles had to be fought on the Finnish side of the pre-WW2 border - because the border ran along the outskirts of Leningrad, and because Mannerheim had given strict orders for the Finns to stay out of the city.
On June 17, 1944, before the anticipated summer offensive of the Red Army, the Finnish General K.L. Oesch - with Mannerheim's approval - made a final decision about the defensive line, where the Red Army would be stopped on the Leningrad sector.
Following the plan, - using delaying tactics - Finnish troops on this sector were withdrawn to the so called VKT- defensive line. Although the summer's Soviet offensive turned out to be extremely fierce, the VKT-line proved impenetrable for the Red Army, despite the unprecedented Soviet fire power which included an artillery bombardment in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala unlike never seen before in history.
Only after having suffered a loss in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala - not before -, the Soviets began pulling out the remains of their divisions from the Finnish front, to be joined with the Allied forces advancing towards Berlin.
Following the Continuation War - as a part of the Finnish-Soviet peace agreement -, Finns had a war against the Nazis next, who at this point had to be chased out of the Finnish Lapland (the Lapland War).
The Continuation War was a separate war from WW2. Therefore, its aftermath was dealt under an independent and conditional peace treaty, signed in 1944. The following year, the Nazis were forced into an unconditional surrender.
Unlike many Nazi leaders who received death penalties, Mannerheim had advanced to become the President of Finland on August 4, 1944, continuing in office until March 4, 1946 - 19 months after the ending of the Continuation War.
Finland had won - in only way a defensive struggle can be won - by a defensive victory.
In his memoirs, Finland's Marshal Mannerheim emphasizes how Finland had prepared for a defensive campaign - not offensive -, prior to the Soviet opening attack of the Continuation War on June 25, 1941.
Because of this, rearranging the Finnish army to counter offensive formations to the north side of Lake Ladoga took total of three weeks - and another three weeks had to be spent to spread the counter offensive to the level of the city of Viipuri.
In his final interview - given to Pro Karelia on December 17, 2003 -, the famed Finnish General of Infantry Adolf Ehrnrooth discussed the outcome of the Finnish-Soviet wars, 1939-1944:
"I - having participated in both the Winter War and the Continuation War - can stress: I know well, how the wars ended on the battle fields. The Continuation War - in particular - ended in (Finland's) defensive victory, in the most important meaning of the term."
In the much praised Soviet book 'Bitva za Leningrad, 1941-1944' ("The Battle of Leningrad ...") - edited by the Soviet Lieutenant General S.P. Platonov, and published in the Soviet Union - the outcome of the 1944 massive Soviet summer offensive is revealed accurately:
"The repeated offensive attempts of the Soviet forces failed ... to gain results. The enemy succeeded in significantly tightening its ranks in this area and in repulsing all attacks of our troops ... During the offensive operations, lasting over three weeks - from June 21 to mid-July -, the forces of the right flank of the Leningrad front failed to carry out the tasks assigned to them on the orders of the Supreme Command, issued on June 21."
The President of Finland Mauno Koivisto spoke at a seminar held in August, 1994, in the North Karelian city of Joensuu, in the celebrations of the 50th anniversary of the Finnish defensive victory in the crucial Battle of Ilomantsi, the very final attempt of the Soviet Union to crush the Finnish defences.
Koivisto - the future President of Finland - witnessed this battle as a soldier in a reconnaissance company commanded by the legendary Finnish war hero and a Knight of the Mannerheim Cross, Captain Lauri Törni (later a legendary US Green Beret under the name of Larry Thorne, raised to the rank of major upon his disappearance in Laos in 1965, during the Vietnam War).
In the summer of 1944, when the Red Army launched an all-out offensive, aimed at eliminating Finland, the Finns were "extremely hard-pressed", President Koivisto emphasized, but they "did not capitulate ... We succeeded in stopping the enemy cold at key points", the President continued, "and in the final battle at Ilomantsi even in pushing him back".
The Cold War period history writing for schools of USSR was aimed at wiping out information about the Winter War, so that the causes for the Continuation War could be distorted.
The Finns were portrayed as the perpetrators, and the Continuation War (not called that in USSR) was tainted merely as a Nazi offensive against USSR. Nothing was said about the Soviets themselves launching the Continuation War by a massive air attack against Finnish cities, while Nazi targets were left alone. Nor was it mentioned, that the later Finnish operation was merely a counter offensive, to push the Soviets back.
The Soviet pupils were not told about the Finns having helped save Leningrad, or them having held short of interrupting the critical lifelines that brought help from the Allies to the Soviet people.
However - after the break-up of USSR -, President Boris Yeltsin became the first Russian leader ever to publicly admit that the Finnish-Soviet wars between 1939 and 1944 were triggered by Joseph Stalin's agressions.
In his memoirs, the post-WW2 Soviet President Nikita Khrushchev explains how the Soviet officials categorically "lied" to the Soviet citizens about the events leading up to the Finnish-Soviet wars, and about the casualties and the outcome of the wars.
However, in the Allied leaders' Tehran conference in 1943, Joseph Stalin correctly referred to the war efforts of the Finns as a "defensive" campaign. In 1948, in presence of high ranking Finnish government officials, he paid respect to the Finnish Armed Forces in Moscow:
"Nobody respects a nation with poor armed forces. Everyone respects a nation with good armed forces. I raise my toast to the Finnish Armed Forces !" ~ Joseph Stalin
WorldWars (
talk)
21:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Why do Soviet and Russian historians see the Continuation War as part of the Great Patriotic War? Is it because they consider Finland to be in league with the Axis, or because their attack coincided with Germany's?
Also, if Russia accepted Finland's view that they were waging a separate war, would they still consider the fight against Finland to part of the Great Patriotic War? ( Repdetect117 ( talk) 06:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC))
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The picture of the "petroskoi kids" behind the cattle fence is a known propaganda picture staged by soviet autohrities, why are we using it in the article?-- Posse72 21:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Still, deliberate use of propaganda pictures shows a certain preconceived attitude, which should have no place in an unbiased article. What would people say if similar pictures prepared by the Nazi party propaganda office would be pasted to history articles, with the text like "picture possibly taken for dis-information purposes". 130.231.167.174 ( talk) 16:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)Wettim
2007 (UTC)
Interesting logic. Than it will be no problem for you to articulate without making moral choices, why 200 dead Finns deserve a strong picture, unlike thousands of victims of Finnish concentration camps or over a million of victims of the siege of Leningrad. To your points:
Dear friends,
The Arbitration committee has made a decision in a case related to this article. The decision includes a general restriction for engaging in any disruptive behaviour. In particular, we should make sure that we edit this talk page more civilly than we have done in the previous week. Otherwise, any of us may get an editing restriction and even a subsequent summary ban. -- MPorciusCato 06:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Ill want references that says "that Mannerheim and Hitler planned there strategy together." As to my knowledege Bobby is upp to great discovery with huge politic/historical impact if he could prove his claim! Quit amazing due to the fact that Bobby hasnt read one book about the subject. -- Posse72 ( talk) 14:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Posse72. When have I said "that Mannerheim and Hitler planned there strategy together"?. regards. Bob BScar23625 ( talk) 15:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
ps - please leave my contribution at normal size and do not shrink me.
Your imbicil communist basterd, could you at least prove your source.-- Posse72 ( talk) 15:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
My relation to continuation war is the same as most Karelians, it was an oppertunity to get back the stolen land. In my intresst for the subject i have read well over 100 book, seen film, read newspapper atricles. So im am no novice to the subject. The conflict concernse me personally because our familly lost its home, put a prospering and well respected familly in to misery, and killed sevral familly members. An familly member visited our house durning the 90s and was shooked to see that the "new owners" hade dismanteled the houses and sent it to Russia, and worst of all, the have demolished the graveyard where my greatgrandpaa is buried, and used the grave stones to build roads with. (And our familly did at that time share the greek ortodhox belife)
Me and Illythr doesnot share the same view, but ill can respect his view thou he hade read about the conflict, and present the Russian view of the matters. Illythr both proves sources and and a wider picture.
That more that one can say about Bobby, he has for a great while now running an own agenda very simller to a "Stalin appologist" one. Out rages claim like comperaing Finland with Rhodesia (Witch is redicules as Finland was the first contry in Europe with "universal suffraget" making it trully the first with one wo(men) one vote ), and uselly without any source. Wikipedia is a encyclopedia, meaning that we should prove our claims with sources. Well Bobby have admited that he dont have read even ONE book about the subject.
As this RAF articel that Bobby put inb the article he claims that it was some sort of intervention aginst Finland. The RAF squadron was there to secure the convoys, not to attack Finland. When the two countries finaly went to war the Squadron was removed. Ill can prov this by sources.
Also we see how Bobbys own research. If he had bother to read anything about the event he would know that the meating was donr on Mannerheims 75th Birthday, Mannerheim was irritaded ower it, Hitler did not make any atempts to make Finland more active in the war. By puting a picture as Bobby does with the captation of "Planing strategy" he forge the history and and deminish the accuracy of Wikipedia.-- Posse72 ( talk) 15:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
The article says "The Finns did not take any anti-Jewish measures in Finland, despite repeated requests from Nazi Germany." according to source #14, but source #13 says that few jews were given to Gestapo and atleast some of them were sent to Auschwitz. Also apparently few thousand PoWs were extradited to Germany. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.226.119 ( talk) 03:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Posse72. You write :
... the primitiv warfare of eastern cultures, and phenomen as mass rape and child murder seen recently in Balkans and chechnya. During the winterwar in the very few occations where Finnish civilians where cought by the Red Army there are ... horrible accounts of Finnish women murded by as stck beeing drow th there genitsals.
This is terrible!. Do you feel that the problem was caused by (a) the undeveloped nature of Slav societies, or (b) the nature of communism?. Or, is it possible that (a) and (b) are related in some way?. best wishes. Bob BScar23625 ( talk) 15:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Alice. Rebuke accepted. I have banned myself from editing this article and its associated discussion page for 56 days - unless I am unreasonably provoked. Bob BScar23625 ( talk) 08:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I added Finnish POW's to the infobox, using [ [4]]. In dealing with World War II, this book is a modern study of declassified Soviet archives of the period. It is probably one of the most authorative sources on data about axis POW's in Soviet captivity. The 2,377 number, however, might exclude those soldiers who were captured, but didn't arrive to POW camps. What do Finnish sources say about this matter? With respect, Ko Soi IX ( talk) 15:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. Another Russian atrociti over 1000 Finnish soldiers that vanished!-- Posse72 ( talk) 15:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
This proposal was made on 18 June 2007, but there doesn’t seem much enthusiasm for it; I can’t find any opinion anywhere about it.
I am removing the Merge proposal here, and there.
I would be opposed to a merger, particularly from here to there; The advance in Northern Finland was bigger than Silver Fox, (which was just the German operation in that theatre), and covered a longer time period.
Also, the Advance… section deals with Finnish actions, in the context of their Continuation War, whilst Silver Fox has the German context.
I am posting this message there also.
Xyl 54 (
talk)
17:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
As we have seen from many reliable Finnish sources, the Soviet warfare was full with over brutal messurs, like childmurder, canibalism, murder of Finnish P.O.W., Soviet troop murders of Finnish wounded soldiers at a military hospital in Viipuri in 1944, murder of civilian, terror bombing campaign aimed at civilian targets, attack on on neutral Sweden, faked occations when Soviet solders pretended to give up in order to ambush etc. To be an objective article we need some information on this. -- Posse72 ( talk) 14:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This would cover the most importent aspect of this campaign.
BTW does any of our Russian friends know how many destroyers the KBF hade 22.6.1941?-- Posse72 ( talk) 00:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
And of curse sources!-- Posse72 ( talk) 00:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello.
Could I recommend the creation of a Finnish invasion of the Soviet Union article which would cover all aspects of the Continuation War roughly anagolous with Barbarossa (June - December 1941)? It would be easier to read a coherent whole then each of the daughter articles presented. It would also help readers to guage relative importance of the various operations in comparison with each other (particularily since most of the initial battle/operation articles are missing numbers). Oberiko ( talk) 15:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is pretty tough to read as it jumps around alot. Can I recommend the following framework?
Oberiko ( talk) 19:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure the Russian name should be present here, since, as the second paragraph of the article states, this war is not known in Russia under that name. In fact, there's no particular name for it, the warfare in those areas is usually referred to as "Leningrad front" and "Karelian front" of the Great Patriotic war. The name in Russian is merely a translation of the Finnish one. -- Illythr ( talk) 23:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
After reading all the comments here, I'm thinking you guys could probably do with a few other articles to spread some of the content around. May I suggest the following?
Thoughts? Oberiko ( talk) 16:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Looks like the results are under contention. May I suggest we go for "Soviet victory"? The other Allies had very little role in the Continuation War. Oberiko ( talk) 14:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
“Gentlemen, you can’t fight here, this is the war room!”
Is there any room for agreement, here?
The result previously said “Moscow Armistice” and Posse72, Lysy and Kurt Leyman want it to stay that way
Other proposals are “Allied Victory” from Mixer and MPorcius Cato, And “Soviet Victory” from Nirvana77, (have I missed anyone out?)
I suggest it can’t stay as “Moscow Armistice”; that isn’t a result, really. The First World War ended, technically, with an armistice, but it was seen as, and is recorded as, a victory by the then allies.
If the sticking point is whether it was the Allies who won, then yes, Finland wasn’t at war with all the allies (America, for example); but she was at war with some of them, Britain and the USSR. So “Allied victory” isn’t inaccurate.
If the contention of this page is that Finland was fighting a separate war, for her own ends, against the Soviet Union, then the result is “Soviet Victory”; the Moscow armistice page is clear that ther was nothing in for Finland except for the Russians to stop fighting them.
So, what’s it to be? Comments?
Xyl 54 ( talk) 17:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Can I propose a freeze on editing the "result" part of the infobox until a thorough discussion's been had? At the moment it just looks like a three-way revert party. -- Stlemur ( talk) 13:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Obviously, I would support Soviet victory. With respect, Ko Soi IX ( talk) 03:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Could you please extend your statement about the winterwar. -- Posse72 ( talk) 18:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
No, because Finlands war goals was not the same as Nazigermany, US and UK admited that. As stated before supported by Finnish and western military historians Finland would have without any problems capatured the city of Leningrad, if they hade decided in September 1941, pls dont spreed unsuported russian urbans legend here. ALSO modern western hisorians as Max Hasting and Norman Davies make a destinct diffrence beetwen the Soviet and the western allies, where Finland wargoals did not collied with the one of the western allies. Futher dont forget that Soviet made a serious atempt to capture Finland as late as the summer of 1944, witch failed misserbly resulting in the dececive Finnish victories in Tienhaara, Bay of Viipuri, Tali-Ihantala, Vousalmi, Netijärvi and Ilomatsi.So the Soviet failed in conquering Finland how can we call this a Soviet victory?????-- Posse72 ( talk) 17:37, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
The Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Defence Forces acknowledge the complete defeat of the Finnish Armed Forces in the war against the U.S.S.R. and announce the unconditional surrender of Finland, requesting the cessation of acts of war. The Government of the U.S.S.R. agrees to formulate the terms, on which it is ready to halt the acts of war against Finland, because the Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Defence Forces fully accept the demands of the Government of the U.S.S.R., and because they commit themselves into abstaining from preventing acts of war by the Allied against Germany and other Axis powers. On the basis of the above, the representatives of the Supreme Command of the Soviet Defence Forces (on one hand), and the representatives of the Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces (on the other hand), all of whom have the required authorization, have undersigned the document below on the unconditional surrender of Finland :
1. WAR TERMS
A. GENERAL WAR TERMS
1. Hereby the Finnish land, naval, and air forces, regardless of their location, surrender unconditionally.
2. The Finnish Government and Supreme Command cease acts of war against the Allied in all theatres of war on land, on sea and in the air after one hour from signing this document.
3. The Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will give without delay to the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces complete information on the locations, orders of battle and equipment of all the units of the Finnish land, air, and naval forces, wherever these are located, as well as the military units of its allies, located in Finnish territory, or co-operating with it.
4. The Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces gives to the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces complete information on the location of mines, mined obstacles, and other obstacles of movement prepared by the Finnish Armed Forces or it allies on land, on sea, and in the air, including mined obstacles in the Baltic Sea, the Barents Sea, Lake Ladoga, and Lake Onega as well as other waterways. The clearing of mines and removal of obstacles will be carried out by the Finnish land and naval forces under the supervision of and in the order and schedule as ordered by the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces.
5. As this document takes effect, the Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces commit themselves without delay in calling to Finland all Finnish troops on other fronts and in disarming them.
6. The German military compounds and units operating in Finnish territory must immediately be disarmed and interned. The staff in command of these troops and the whole personnel of German headquarters must be detained. The Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will give all possible assistance to the Supreme Command of the Soviet Defence Forces in the disarming of these military troops. In this context must be taken into account the possibility of Finnish Armed Forces participating in the disarming of German military troops on the demand of the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces. The representatives of the Supreme Command of the German Military Forces at Finnish headquarters and military units must be immediately arrested and handed over to the Supreme Command of the Soviet Defence Forces. The Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will forbid transportations of German military troops through Finnish territory and provision of weapons, equipment, and all other supplies to German military troops, and their local supplying.
7. The Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will carry out the disarming of all Finnish land, air, and naval forces according to the orders, schedule, and sequence given by the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces, under its supervision.
8. Since the moment of signing this document until when the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces has taken under its control all communications connections in Finland, all radio broadcasts in Finnish territory are forbidden, and Finnish telegraph, telephone, and radio connections to other countries will be cut off.
9. The Finnish Government and the Supreme Command of the Finnish Defence Forces will secure the transportations of military troops of the U.S.S.R. in Finnish territory by rail and by other means of transportation and the needed supplies to the troops.
10. To fulfil the terms of surrender and to secure the interests of the U.S.S.R., the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces – by its own military forces and at its own discretion – will occupy partially or fully the territory of Finland, her harbours, the archipelago of Åland, and the islands of the Gulf of Finland. The Government of the U.S.S.R. will make use of all the rights of an occupying power in the occupied territories of Finland. The Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces will publish its own orders and directives. The Finnish Government and the Finnish people will by all means try to contribute to the execution of these orders and directives. To serve this aim, the Finnish Government will without delay give an order to all the authorities of the central and local government, to the judicial system, public organisations, and all civil servants to remain in their previous positions, to obey orders unconditionally, and to carry out their duties conscientiously, until the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces gives its directives.
11. In the occupied territories of Finland the maintenance of order and peace will be the responsibility of the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces. In the unoccupied Finnish territories the above will be the responsibility of the Finnish Government.
12. The Finnish Government will commit itself to carrying out such legislative and other measures, as deemed necessary by the Supreme Command of the Soviet Military Forces in fulfilling the terms of this document.
13. The Finnish Government will cover all expenses of the occupation.'
Unfortunatly things didnot go the Soviet way.-- Posse72 ( talk) 19:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
This the following from a quick Google Book search:
I guess we are getting closer here. I think that all agree, that the result wasn't a Soviet victory like Soviet achieved against Germany, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia. Right? Also, I guess also Posse agree, that Soviet Union was in a stronger position vis-a-vis Finland after the war as it was before. Correct? By referring both Tomas Ries ("Cold Will") and Max Jacobsson, also Finland exited from the war in a stronger position vis-a-vis Soviet Union as it was before the war. We should also remember, that Great Britain exited the war in much weaker position relative to other countries than it was before the war. It is clear by the text of the peace treaties, that Soviet Union won the war, but naturally, that is not the whole story... -- Whiskey ( talk) 09:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
(I’ve put this here out of sequence, as it fits better with the above than the below)
I’ve tried to run down some of these sources; the Norman Davies book is fairly opinionated; which is not to say it’s wrong, just that it’s hardly a neutral source.
The Finnish sources probably aren’t very useful on the English WP unless there’s an English translation (I haven't found any); and they run the risk of being partisan.
There seems to be very little on the subject altogether. Chris Bellamy’s book on the war in the east gives just two pages to Finland; does anyone know any good books?
Xyl 54 (
talk)
15:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Just to get a quick straw poll here. List alternatives and which one(s) you support.
Options
Discussion
There's no need to artificially assign the result at all. Not every conflict has to have the winners. In this case both sides lost, and neither fulfilled its assumed goals. Davydoff ( talk) 18:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
This discussion is 10 pages long (38 kb); Is this make-our-minds-up time?
I would have gone for a simple “ soviet victory”; the Finnish success was in keeping it from “total soviet victory”.
And it’s consistent with the view of this conflict being essentially between Finland and the USSR, which is implicit in the article.
However, if you think mentioning the armistice is important, then “Soviet Victory (Moscow Armistice)”.
Xyl 54 (
talk)
17:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I haven't had the energy to read through it all in detail, but considering the Soviets originally started all of this with their original unprovoked attack and did not wind up subjugating Finland as they did the Baltics (Finland having been offered the same terms of "mutual assistance" which they refused), I really can't see how from a practical basis this is a Soviet victory since they did not attain their original aim ("re-take" Finland, which had been a province of the tsarist empire). And to suggest "Soviet Union and allies" as victors implies that Stalin's original aggression was Allied-supported. — PētersV ( talk) 01:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
What does the phrase "During the last half of 1942 the number of detainees dropped quickly to 15,000" mean? Does it mean that the interned died? If so, how come the total toll is 4000-7000, not 9500? If not, than what happened to them? Basically, the wording is very inexact. With respect, Ko Soi IX ( talk) 04:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
“…so
Operation Kilpapurjehdus (Sail Race) was launched…”
“sail race “ is nice, and presumably an exact translation, but the English equivalent is probably "Regatta".
Anyway, I’ve seen this operation referred to as such, so I’ve changed it here, and on the other page as well.
Xyl 54 (
talk)
12:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Remove big parts of the UK involment to own article.
According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV#Undue_weight this section gives to much weight to psuedo events!-- Posse72 ( talk) 13:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Allright, this question has been up for over a week, and no one is aginst the proposal, so Ill start moving the section of RAF to the RAF 151 Wing based at Murmansk article.-- Posse72 ( talk) 17:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
...furthermore the US did not declare war on Finland when they went to war with the Axis countries and, together with UK, pressed Stalin in the Tehran Conference to acknowledge Finnish independence. - eh, what's this? Did Soviet Union cease to recognize Finland at some stage of the war? -- Illythr ( talk) 18:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
-- Posse72 ( talk) 19:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be great difficulties to understand the Finnish situation among English-speaking people who naturally have learned to see the WWII from the perspective of the allied. Every now and then I've seen somebody suggesting that the faith of theses countries during the war were quite similar: both countries were attacked by a dictator, both countries allied themselves with another dictator in order to fight the first one, and both countries, after a short more peaceful period, attacked the latter dictator trying to bring him down to his knees. Perhaps the biggest difference is that the UK succeeded in doing that. I don't know, perhaps this analogy would help to understand ... but then again it doesn't really sound "encyclopedic" enough. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.27.70.16 ( talk) 11:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Finns came out victorious from the battle fields of the Continuation War, but - after fire had seized - they agreed to some rather heavy concessions, to reach a solid peace.
Importantly - however -, Finland had succeeded in her goal to save her independence and sovereignty, by preventing the take-over attempts of USSR, launched by two massive attacks by the Red Army, one initiating the Winter War on November 30, 1939 - lasting until March 13, 1940 -, and another initiating the Continuation War on June 25, 1941 - lasting until September 19, 1944.
Out of all warring nations in Europe during WW2, west from USSR and besides England, Finland was the only one whose capital was never occupied during the entire World War. Furthermore, whereas all other European nations bordering USSR ended up either becoming part of it, or were forced into becoming it's satellites following WW2, Finland - despite of its longest border with USSR - continued as a sovereign democracy throughout WW2, and beyond.
USSR - on the other hand - fell far from its objective, conquering Finland, a goal set forth in Moscow on August 23, 1939, by signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between USSR and Germany. Two days before, Stalin had spelled out his plan to the Soviet State Duma.
To rescue Finland's second largest city from destruction, and to take the fighting to the nearby rural areas instead, the Finns had executed a strategic abandonment of Viipuri in just few hours' time on June 20, 1944, using delaying tactics. The day's fighting in Viipuri was brought to a halt by 16:40, leaving only 120 Finns dead or missing in action (Eeva Tammi, 8/2006).
Following the abandonment of Viipuri, all the war's final nine major battles were victorious for the Finns. Furthermore, ever since the start of the Continuation War, the Soviets had not been able to cross the preceding - 1940 - Finnish-Soviet border during the entire war, except for a short-lived moment in the very final major battle at Ilomantsi in 1944, where the Red Army suffered a devastating loss, when two of its divisions were fully decimated and shattered, as the Soviets were pushed back.
A narrow - but massive - Soviet spearhead on the Karelian Isthmus had been stopped earlier by the Finns in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala. On other sectors, the Finns were on the Soviet soil when guns turned down at the war's end. Of the territory eventually ceded to USSR, the Red Army had won only a fraction in battles. Thus - from a military point of view -, Finland clearly came out a winner of the war.
Yet, if Finland were to be portrayed as an ally of Germany - an aim of the post-WW2 propagandist history interpretation of KGB -, Finland indeed could be viewed to at least have been on the losing side of WW2.
However, there never was an ally treaty or a pact signed between Finland and Germany. Although the two nations shared a common enemy, their objectives and strategies were very different.
Finns wanted to live, and to protect their sovereignty. In order to save themselves from the destiny of their Baltic neighbors, they knew there was no other choice - following the peace treaty of the Winter War - but to begin preparing themselves for another Soviet attack.
Another Soviet offensive was inevitable, unless the Finns were to surrender to all Soviet demands - and that would have meant disaster for Finland. Signs of a renewed Soviet attack were everywhere, as the Soviets had not paid much respect to promises disclosed in the end of the Winter War.
During the so called Interim Peace period - the short-lived truce between the Winter War and the Continuation War - the Soviets had lauched a campaign to manipulate the Finnish political decision making processes, including naming of the highest ranking Finnish government officials. What the Soviets had not been able to gain in the battles of the Winter War, they tried taking during the following truce, without firing a bullet.
At this point, the Soviet tactics also included numerous border violations against Finland. Additionally, the Soviets had began demanding control of strategically vital parts of Southern Finnish railroads, while - at the same time - the Red Army continued building up forces by the nations' border.
By now, all the Baltic nations and Norway and Denmark had become occupied by either the Germans or the Soviets. Even in theory, Germany now was the only place, from where the Finns could acquire material for their defense.
Reluctantly - left with no alternative -, the Finns now agreed to a minimum level of cooperation with the Nazis. However, the Nazis' key proposals for strategic cooperation were turned down by the Finns.
Besides not handing over any of the Finnish Jews to the Nazis (note: eight non-Finnish Jews seeking political asylum from Finland were turned down), the Finns refused to join Germany's - nearly successful - Siege of Leningrad, in one of the most critical operations of WW2.
Based on Mannerheim's orders, the Finns also held back from interrupting the Allied "lifeline" of help over Lake Ladoga, which delivered desperately needed supplies to the Soviet defenders of Leningrad. Furthermore - based on Mannerheim's orders -, the Finns freezed their counter-offensive to the level of River Syväri (Svir), a tributary to Lake Ladoga.
The Finns also held back from cutting down the Murmansk railroad near the Finnish-Soviet border, along which massive amounts of American materials were transported to the Soviets.
All this - and much more - was done on behalf of the Finns, not to interfere with the Allies' war against Germany, despite the fact that the Allied arms transported close by the Finnish border regularly ended up being used against the Finns themselves, not only against the Nazis.
In several ways, the Finns made an important contribution to the Allied war efforts against the Nazis. For the most part of the war, the Germans were engaged only to operations in Northern Finland, while - at the same time - the Finns themselves kept the Allied supply lines open in the South.
By not crossing the Finnish-Soviet border into Leningrad, and by allowing the Allied supply lines to operate freely by their borders, the Finns prohibited a full Nazi encirclement of the City of Leningrad - during over 900 days' siege, thus denying a huge stratecig and moral victory from the Nazis.
USSR's attempt to occupy Finland in the Winter War - starting in 1939 - had been pre-approved by Adolf Hitler, in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. On his visit to Berlin, November 12-13, 1940, the Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov sought for a renewed Hitler's approval, this time for the continuation of the Winter War (to be named Continuation War by the contemporaries), a continued Soviet take-over campaign over Finland. Nevertheless, Hitler no longer approved.
During the following four years, it was up to the Finns themselves to show their own disapproval. By August 1944, it had finally been made clear to Joseph Stalin, that Finland could not be beaten militarily, and there would not be a Soviet occupation of Finland. The Finns had pushed the Red Army back behind their borders, and had held it there until the conditions for peace were to be negotiated and agreed upon.
On the critical Leningrad sector, however, the final battles had to be fought on the Finnish side of the pre-WW2 border - because the border ran along the outskirts of Leningrad, and because Mannerheim had given strict orders for the Finns to stay out of the city.
On June 17, 1944, before the anticipated summer offensive of the Red Army, the Finnish General K.L. Oesch - with Mannerheim's approval - made a final decision about the defensive line, where the Red Army would be stopped on the Leningrad sector.
Following the plan, - using delaying tactics - Finnish troops on this sector were withdrawn to the so called VKT- defensive line. Although the summer's Soviet offensive turned out to be extremely fierce, the VKT-line proved impenetrable for the Red Army, despite the unprecedented Soviet fire power which included an artillery bombardment in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala unlike never seen before in history.
Only after having suffered a loss in the Battle of Tali-Ihantala - not before -, the Soviets began pulling out the remains of their divisions from the Finnish front, to be joined with the Allied forces advancing towards Berlin.
Following the Continuation War - as a part of the Finnish-Soviet peace agreement -, Finns had a war against the Nazis next, who at this point had to be chased out of the Finnish Lapland (the Lapland War).
The Continuation War was a separate war from WW2. Therefore, its aftermath was dealt under an independent and conditional peace treaty, signed in 1944. The following year, the Nazis were forced into an unconditional surrender.
Unlike many Nazi leaders who received death penalties, Mannerheim had advanced to become the President of Finland on August 4, 1944, continuing in office until March 4, 1946 - 19 months after the ending of the Continuation War.
Finland had won - in only way a defensive struggle can be won - by a defensive victory.
In his memoirs, Finland's Marshal Mannerheim emphasizes how Finland had prepared for a defensive campaign - not offensive -, prior to the Soviet opening attack of the Continuation War on June 25, 1941.
Because of this, rearranging the Finnish army to counter offensive formations to the north side of Lake Ladoga took total of three weeks - and another three weeks had to be spent to spread the counter offensive to the level of the city of Viipuri.
In his final interview - given to Pro Karelia on December 17, 2003 -, the famed Finnish General of Infantry Adolf Ehrnrooth discussed the outcome of the Finnish-Soviet wars, 1939-1944:
"I - having participated in both the Winter War and the Continuation War - can stress: I know well, how the wars ended on the battle fields. The Continuation War - in particular - ended in (Finland's) defensive victory, in the most important meaning of the term."
In the much praised Soviet book 'Bitva za Leningrad, 1941-1944' ("The Battle of Leningrad ...") - edited by the Soviet Lieutenant General S.P. Platonov, and published in the Soviet Union - the outcome of the 1944 massive Soviet summer offensive is revealed accurately:
"The repeated offensive attempts of the Soviet forces failed ... to gain results. The enemy succeeded in significantly tightening its ranks in this area and in repulsing all attacks of our troops ... During the offensive operations, lasting over three weeks - from June 21 to mid-July -, the forces of the right flank of the Leningrad front failed to carry out the tasks assigned to them on the orders of the Supreme Command, issued on June 21."
The President of Finland Mauno Koivisto spoke at a seminar held in August, 1994, in the North Karelian city of Joensuu, in the celebrations of the 50th anniversary of the Finnish defensive victory in the crucial Battle of Ilomantsi, the very final attempt of the Soviet Union to crush the Finnish defences.
Koivisto - the future President of Finland - witnessed this battle as a soldier in a reconnaissance company commanded by the legendary Finnish war hero and a Knight of the Mannerheim Cross, Captain Lauri Törni (later a legendary US Green Beret under the name of Larry Thorne, raised to the rank of major upon his disappearance in Laos in 1965, during the Vietnam War).
In the summer of 1944, when the Red Army launched an all-out offensive, aimed at eliminating Finland, the Finns were "extremely hard-pressed", President Koivisto emphasized, but they "did not capitulate ... We succeeded in stopping the enemy cold at key points", the President continued, "and in the final battle at Ilomantsi even in pushing him back".
The Cold War period history writing for schools of USSR was aimed at wiping out information about the Winter War, so that the causes for the Continuation War could be distorted.
The Finns were portrayed as the perpetrators, and the Continuation War (not called that in USSR) was tainted merely as a Nazi offensive against USSR. Nothing was said about the Soviets themselves launching the Continuation War by a massive air attack against Finnish cities, while Nazi targets were left alone. Nor was it mentioned, that the later Finnish operation was merely a counter offensive, to push the Soviets back.
The Soviet pupils were not told about the Finns having helped save Leningrad, or them having held short of interrupting the critical lifelines that brought help from the Allies to the Soviet people.
However - after the break-up of USSR -, President Boris Yeltsin became the first Russian leader ever to publicly admit that the Finnish-Soviet wars between 1939 and 1944 were triggered by Joseph Stalin's agressions.
In his memoirs, the post-WW2 Soviet President Nikita Khrushchev explains how the Soviet officials categorically "lied" to the Soviet citizens about the events leading up to the Finnish-Soviet wars, and about the casualties and the outcome of the wars.
However, in the Allied leaders' Tehran conference in 1943, Joseph Stalin correctly referred to the war efforts of the Finns as a "defensive" campaign. In 1948, in presence of high ranking Finnish government officials, he paid respect to the Finnish Armed Forces in Moscow:
"Nobody respects a nation with poor armed forces. Everyone respects a nation with good armed forces. I raise my toast to the Finnish Armed Forces !" ~ Joseph Stalin
WorldWars (
talk)
21:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Why do Soviet and Russian historians see the Continuation War as part of the Great Patriotic War? Is it because they consider Finland to be in league with the Axis, or because their attack coincided with Germany's?
Also, if Russia accepted Finland's view that they were waging a separate war, would they still consider the fight against Finland to part of the Great Patriotic War? ( Repdetect117 ( talk) 06:29, 17 February 2009 (UTC))