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JASpencer, this article has no secondary sources, much like the original GOUSA article. If the only sources about these lodges are their own self-published websites, then this article will have to be redirected back to Continental Freemasonry. Please read up on secondary sources. A ni Mate 22:21, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
JASpencer, I have made it very very clear on numerous occasions that strongly oppose creating any "Continental Freemasonry in North America" article. Doing so violates NPOV, as it gives undue weight to a branch of Freemasonry that is in the distinct minority in that region of the world (if not on the Fringe)
It is one thing to have a broader Continental Freemasonry article to discuss that branch of the fraternity in global terms, and to discuss the concepts that separate that branch from others ... but I strongly oppose splitting off regional articles such as this.
You know that while I think it is useful to have "Freemasonry in X region" articles to discuss the history, development and current state of the fraternity in any given region... I strongly feel that such articles must meet NPOV by discussing all branches of Freemasonry in the stated region. You are aware that I am in the process of drafting an article on "Freemasonry in North America"... in which I intend to discuss both "Mainstream" and "Continental" Freemasonry in the region. I find your actions in creating this article to be in bad faith.
I also find your double redirecting of the GOUSA article to here to be in extremely bad faith. I agreed that the GOUSA article should be redirected to Continental Freemasonry... I did not agree to almost immediately re-redirecting the information off into another article... and in fact stated firm opposition to doing so on the GOUSA talk page. Blueboar ( talk) 23:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
A recent change was made in regards to the usage of the word 'traditional'. The quote from the change is as follows: "in North America, 'traditional' could mean 'allied with UGLE' as that is the older tradition." However, in consideration that the UGLE was not formed until 1813 and the GOdF can trace its lineage to the original GL of 1717, I do not believe that this assertion is correct. 'Traditional' is not exclusively used by the Anglo-American GLs, nor are they any "older" than other traditions. I could go into a whole discourse on the 'Antients' versus the 'Moderns' and the fact that the so-called "older" tradition of Masonry in England today follows the Ahiman Rezon which is the constitutions of the Antients, and did not exist until the latter half of the 18th century. (You will also need to note that this is when the requirment of belief in deity became prevalent because all Anglo-American GLs use this as the foundation of their constitutions.) However, I believe that there are ample resources on the internet and in book form that would do a much better job of proving that the Anglo-American tradition of Masonry is no older. In additiona, even a cursory reading of the letters of Ben Franklin and George Washington will show that both men were extremely put-off by the "new" form of Masonry that had begun to move into America towards the end of the 1700s. In particular, this form of Masonry was extremely pro-England, which to many of the Freemason founding fathers was good reason to never attend lodge. It should also be noted that Franklin was removed from his lodge by this same group and denied his Masonic funeral by the GL of PA until 2006, which now uses him as a political and historical tool. (Although, he had always kept his ties to the lodges in France that he belonged to.) Seems a little intillectually dishonest, no? Voltairesghost ( talk) 14:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
There have been rumours that the GOUSA and other Irregular Lodges have played a more significant political role since the election of Barack Obama as President of the United States, at least from the perspective of historic American politics and public deism. Now, these are just rumours, but it would certainly be a good thing to investigate on what is Continental Masonry's political role in the US and how it fairs politically in comparison with older, more established Lodges that have had great influence in past administrations. ADM ( talk) 17:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
It appears that Continental Freemasonry has a special niche in the Quebec province, although the majority of local lodges are of the regular/deist branch. This niche is mainly attributed to positive relations between France and Quebec/Canada, with the GODF being involved in local Masonry since the period of the American Revolution. In the 20th century, some conspiracy theorists have blamed this French encroachment on the rise of Quebec separatism and on the wider phenomenon of the Quiet Revolution. ADM ( talk) 09:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Let me start off by saying that I completely agree that a short paragraph on the Grand Orient of the United States is entirely appropriate for this article... but the recent additions skewed the article to the point where over half of the article was devoted to it. GOUSA is still quite small (last I heard it had something like 10 lodges, with an average of 20 members each... correct me if I am out of date), and such in depth discussion gives it Undue weight. Blueboar ( talk) 00:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I have revised the GOUSA section. It is slightly shorter than the longer version. My argument for keeping the lenght is as follows. Of the three entries (orders), GOUSA is the second largest. GWU is only 5 lodges. GOUSA has 12 and other triangle lodges in the works. Le Droit is the largest order in the USA, but not by far. If anything the Le Droit entry is too short, given its history, and then this will balance with the other two. Given the size of GOUSA and GWU, the length of the GOUSA article is proportional.
The Chamberlain URL is dead. Until someone finds a replacement, I think it should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khartung ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Works for me. Now we need to get the total number of lodges for Le Droit. I have corresponded with the Grand Master before. I'll see what I can dig up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khartung ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I was quite shocked when I saw the latest addition. It was full of inaccuracies and the only things the editor could possibly ever cite would be the two letters between the GWU and GOUSA revoking their treaties. Which of course the person adding the content either did not do his homework or is purposefully being himself mislead or trying to mislead others. I do not know which but have my suspicions.
On Dec. 28th, 2010 the GOUSA sent a letter to the GWU revoking the treaty. The GWU followed on Jan. 10, 2011 with their own letter to the GOUSA. These two letters are displayed at: http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2011/01/more-squabbles-in-irregular-world.html (hosted by Chris Hodapp author of Freemasons for Dummies with no ties to either the GOUSA or GWU). Note there was no reason given by the GOUSA for revoking the treaty. It is however well known that the GWU is a masonic body chartered "under" the GOdF and as such the treaty in place between the GOdF and GOUSA also includes the GWU. In short, the treaty between the two was redundant. The GWU was the GOdF's mixed gender body but in 2010 the GOdF became mixed gender thus removing the need for the GWU for all intense purposes. I can only speculate here but I would think the GWU is concerned about this since both the GOUSA and GOdF, who are sovereign unto each other, are both mixed gender now. You have to draw you own conclusions here.
Only one "lodge" has ever been removed and that was Euclid and not for the reasons he stated but over their wanting to not allow anyone who was not Christian to join. The others he references specifically, Emeth, Benjamin Franklin and Praxis were not full voting lodges but instead probationary lodges working under Warrants of Dispensation from the Grand Master. In short Benjamin Franklin and Praxis warrants were pulled because their leadership decided they did not want to wait the probationary period and "allegedly" attempted a coup d'état, which failed of course, and the two Masters are currently under suspension awaiting their trials. The other Masons in those lodges were offered to restart them under new leadership or to transfer to other existing lodges. Sir Francis Bacon lodge is not defunct but just changed their name. Traditions I need to verify their current membership status but I know for sure it did not resign and Sirus only lost one member. The membership numbers he referenced are wrong, way wrong.
I also find it extremely unusual that a Brothers name, full name at that, was directly cited. I just spoke personally with the mentioned Brother and he was unaware his name had been referenced and did not want it to be used period and most especially used to slander the GOUSA.
To keep it simple, nothing in the entire paragraph that was added can be properly sourced under Wikipedia's rules except maybe for the two letters referenced above and must be removed. On a final note, any Masonic body who tries to bring liberal Freemasonry back to America will always be under attack and have lies made up about them. Anyone who defies what Antient or mainstream Freemasons have always done, which is not allow Atheist, Women and in many states African Americans to join will meet the full wrath of the mainstream pundits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwbro1 ( talk • contribs) 00:19, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
It appears that the current grand master and the past grand master are not on the same page regarding Euclid. [2] We should be accurate in our statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cadenareal ( talk • contribs) 01:07, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
This section continues to be altered by IP editors, without any reliable sources to support the changes. My problem is that it is very hard to find reliable sources on the current status of GOUSA. I can see from the George Washington Union's webpage that the GWU has revoked its treaty of Amity... and I have heard rumors that GOF would follow suit. I have also heard that some of GOUSAs lodges have been unhappy and may have quit GOUSA (to either join GWU or form their own new Grand Lodge/Orient)... but again these are rumors, and rumors can be wrong. Does anyone have a reliable source for what is currently going on with GOUSA? Blueboar ( talk) 21:55, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Blueboar this is the work of a few suspended folks one in particular in VA. If you check Chris Hodapp's Freemasons for Dummies you will see where they tried this before about the GWU. They said the GWU pulled the treaty when in actuality the GOUSA revoked it for the GWUs part in something that I cannot discuss in the open. As for the Treaty between the GOdF and the GOUSA what they missed is articles 8 and 9 of their respective treaty which says that if any dispute arises the two GMs must appoint representatives to discuss the issue. It also states that neither side can unilaterally pull recognition without a minimum of six months notice, which I can guarantee has not happened. The GOdF and GOUSA are not stupid, neither would jeopardize their integrity by violating their own treaty. -- Dwbro1 ( talk) 18:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
This page is inherently biased toward Anglo Freemasonry. We don't need a rehashing of Anglo Masonry on the Continental page. If you want to learn about Anglo Masonry go to that page. This page has an obvious bias, and needs major reworking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.200.28.150 ( talk) 20:19, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
The title of the article is misleading, as it does not even mention either Canada or Mexico, or any other North American country other than US. I recommend renaming it to Continental Freemasonry in the US, or adding sections for non-US organizations Truther2012 ( talk) 17:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Indeed there is a number of CLIPSAS-affiliated GLs in Canada, particularly in French (hint) speaking Quebec. I do not necessarily have any worthy information on them to add at this time. My concern here was more with the article's intent. Truther2012 ( talk) 18:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The list of groups / lodges is divided into English and Non-English groups. Is there any particular reason for this? I dont see it adding any value. Further, the same groups are not restricted to any given language. I propose merging two sections and clean up the list. Truther2012 ( talk) 15:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Done Truther2012 ( talk) 20:21, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
This section is questionable. It's very short, not referenced, and in my view does not add any more information that is particular to Continental Freemasonry in North America. I propose deleting it altogether. Truther2012 ( talk) 15:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
My point is less about references, but more about fit. This section may make sense in the overall Continental Freemasonry, since the different names are not North America-specific. Truther2012 ( talk) 20:23, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
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JASpencer, this article has no secondary sources, much like the original GOUSA article. If the only sources about these lodges are their own self-published websites, then this article will have to be redirected back to Continental Freemasonry. Please read up on secondary sources. A ni Mate 22:21, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
JASpencer, I have made it very very clear on numerous occasions that strongly oppose creating any "Continental Freemasonry in North America" article. Doing so violates NPOV, as it gives undue weight to a branch of Freemasonry that is in the distinct minority in that region of the world (if not on the Fringe)
It is one thing to have a broader Continental Freemasonry article to discuss that branch of the fraternity in global terms, and to discuss the concepts that separate that branch from others ... but I strongly oppose splitting off regional articles such as this.
You know that while I think it is useful to have "Freemasonry in X region" articles to discuss the history, development and current state of the fraternity in any given region... I strongly feel that such articles must meet NPOV by discussing all branches of Freemasonry in the stated region. You are aware that I am in the process of drafting an article on "Freemasonry in North America"... in which I intend to discuss both "Mainstream" and "Continental" Freemasonry in the region. I find your actions in creating this article to be in bad faith.
I also find your double redirecting of the GOUSA article to here to be in extremely bad faith. I agreed that the GOUSA article should be redirected to Continental Freemasonry... I did not agree to almost immediately re-redirecting the information off into another article... and in fact stated firm opposition to doing so on the GOUSA talk page. Blueboar ( talk) 23:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
A recent change was made in regards to the usage of the word 'traditional'. The quote from the change is as follows: "in North America, 'traditional' could mean 'allied with UGLE' as that is the older tradition." However, in consideration that the UGLE was not formed until 1813 and the GOdF can trace its lineage to the original GL of 1717, I do not believe that this assertion is correct. 'Traditional' is not exclusively used by the Anglo-American GLs, nor are they any "older" than other traditions. I could go into a whole discourse on the 'Antients' versus the 'Moderns' and the fact that the so-called "older" tradition of Masonry in England today follows the Ahiman Rezon which is the constitutions of the Antients, and did not exist until the latter half of the 18th century. (You will also need to note that this is when the requirment of belief in deity became prevalent because all Anglo-American GLs use this as the foundation of their constitutions.) However, I believe that there are ample resources on the internet and in book form that would do a much better job of proving that the Anglo-American tradition of Masonry is no older. In additiona, even a cursory reading of the letters of Ben Franklin and George Washington will show that both men were extremely put-off by the "new" form of Masonry that had begun to move into America towards the end of the 1700s. In particular, this form of Masonry was extremely pro-England, which to many of the Freemason founding fathers was good reason to never attend lodge. It should also be noted that Franklin was removed from his lodge by this same group and denied his Masonic funeral by the GL of PA until 2006, which now uses him as a political and historical tool. (Although, he had always kept his ties to the lodges in France that he belonged to.) Seems a little intillectually dishonest, no? Voltairesghost ( talk) 14:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
There have been rumours that the GOUSA and other Irregular Lodges have played a more significant political role since the election of Barack Obama as President of the United States, at least from the perspective of historic American politics and public deism. Now, these are just rumours, but it would certainly be a good thing to investigate on what is Continental Masonry's political role in the US and how it fairs politically in comparison with older, more established Lodges that have had great influence in past administrations. ADM ( talk) 17:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
It appears that Continental Freemasonry has a special niche in the Quebec province, although the majority of local lodges are of the regular/deist branch. This niche is mainly attributed to positive relations between France and Quebec/Canada, with the GODF being involved in local Masonry since the period of the American Revolution. In the 20th century, some conspiracy theorists have blamed this French encroachment on the rise of Quebec separatism and on the wider phenomenon of the Quiet Revolution. ADM ( talk) 09:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Let me start off by saying that I completely agree that a short paragraph on the Grand Orient of the United States is entirely appropriate for this article... but the recent additions skewed the article to the point where over half of the article was devoted to it. GOUSA is still quite small (last I heard it had something like 10 lodges, with an average of 20 members each... correct me if I am out of date), and such in depth discussion gives it Undue weight. Blueboar ( talk) 00:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I have revised the GOUSA section. It is slightly shorter than the longer version. My argument for keeping the lenght is as follows. Of the three entries (orders), GOUSA is the second largest. GWU is only 5 lodges. GOUSA has 12 and other triangle lodges in the works. Le Droit is the largest order in the USA, but not by far. If anything the Le Droit entry is too short, given its history, and then this will balance with the other two. Given the size of GOUSA and GWU, the length of the GOUSA article is proportional.
The Chamberlain URL is dead. Until someone finds a replacement, I think it should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khartung ( talk • contribs) 01:20, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Works for me. Now we need to get the total number of lodges for Le Droit. I have corresponded with the Grand Master before. I'll see what I can dig up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khartung ( talk • contribs) 21:00, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
I was quite shocked when I saw the latest addition. It was full of inaccuracies and the only things the editor could possibly ever cite would be the two letters between the GWU and GOUSA revoking their treaties. Which of course the person adding the content either did not do his homework or is purposefully being himself mislead or trying to mislead others. I do not know which but have my suspicions.
On Dec. 28th, 2010 the GOUSA sent a letter to the GWU revoking the treaty. The GWU followed on Jan. 10, 2011 with their own letter to the GOUSA. These two letters are displayed at: http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2011/01/more-squabbles-in-irregular-world.html (hosted by Chris Hodapp author of Freemasons for Dummies with no ties to either the GOUSA or GWU). Note there was no reason given by the GOUSA for revoking the treaty. It is however well known that the GWU is a masonic body chartered "under" the GOdF and as such the treaty in place between the GOdF and GOUSA also includes the GWU. In short, the treaty between the two was redundant. The GWU was the GOdF's mixed gender body but in 2010 the GOdF became mixed gender thus removing the need for the GWU for all intense purposes. I can only speculate here but I would think the GWU is concerned about this since both the GOUSA and GOdF, who are sovereign unto each other, are both mixed gender now. You have to draw you own conclusions here.
Only one "lodge" has ever been removed and that was Euclid and not for the reasons he stated but over their wanting to not allow anyone who was not Christian to join. The others he references specifically, Emeth, Benjamin Franklin and Praxis were not full voting lodges but instead probationary lodges working under Warrants of Dispensation from the Grand Master. In short Benjamin Franklin and Praxis warrants were pulled because their leadership decided they did not want to wait the probationary period and "allegedly" attempted a coup d'état, which failed of course, and the two Masters are currently under suspension awaiting their trials. The other Masons in those lodges were offered to restart them under new leadership or to transfer to other existing lodges. Sir Francis Bacon lodge is not defunct but just changed their name. Traditions I need to verify their current membership status but I know for sure it did not resign and Sirus only lost one member. The membership numbers he referenced are wrong, way wrong.
I also find it extremely unusual that a Brothers name, full name at that, was directly cited. I just spoke personally with the mentioned Brother and he was unaware his name had been referenced and did not want it to be used period and most especially used to slander the GOUSA.
To keep it simple, nothing in the entire paragraph that was added can be properly sourced under Wikipedia's rules except maybe for the two letters referenced above and must be removed. On a final note, any Masonic body who tries to bring liberal Freemasonry back to America will always be under attack and have lies made up about them. Anyone who defies what Antient or mainstream Freemasons have always done, which is not allow Atheist, Women and in many states African Americans to join will meet the full wrath of the mainstream pundits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwbro1 ( talk • contribs) 00:19, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
It appears that the current grand master and the past grand master are not on the same page regarding Euclid. [2] We should be accurate in our statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cadenareal ( talk • contribs) 01:07, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
This section continues to be altered by IP editors, without any reliable sources to support the changes. My problem is that it is very hard to find reliable sources on the current status of GOUSA. I can see from the George Washington Union's webpage that the GWU has revoked its treaty of Amity... and I have heard rumors that GOF would follow suit. I have also heard that some of GOUSAs lodges have been unhappy and may have quit GOUSA (to either join GWU or form their own new Grand Lodge/Orient)... but again these are rumors, and rumors can be wrong. Does anyone have a reliable source for what is currently going on with GOUSA? Blueboar ( talk) 21:55, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
Blueboar this is the work of a few suspended folks one in particular in VA. If you check Chris Hodapp's Freemasons for Dummies you will see where they tried this before about the GWU. They said the GWU pulled the treaty when in actuality the GOUSA revoked it for the GWUs part in something that I cannot discuss in the open. As for the Treaty between the GOdF and the GOUSA what they missed is articles 8 and 9 of their respective treaty which says that if any dispute arises the two GMs must appoint representatives to discuss the issue. It also states that neither side can unilaterally pull recognition without a minimum of six months notice, which I can guarantee has not happened. The GOdF and GOUSA are not stupid, neither would jeopardize their integrity by violating their own treaty. -- Dwbro1 ( talk) 18:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
This page is inherently biased toward Anglo Freemasonry. We don't need a rehashing of Anglo Masonry on the Continental page. If you want to learn about Anglo Masonry go to that page. This page has an obvious bias, and needs major reworking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.200.28.150 ( talk) 20:19, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
The title of the article is misleading, as it does not even mention either Canada or Mexico, or any other North American country other than US. I recommend renaming it to Continental Freemasonry in the US, or adding sections for non-US organizations Truther2012 ( talk) 17:45, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Indeed there is a number of CLIPSAS-affiliated GLs in Canada, particularly in French (hint) speaking Quebec. I do not necessarily have any worthy information on them to add at this time. My concern here was more with the article's intent. Truther2012 ( talk) 18:55, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
The list of groups / lodges is divided into English and Non-English groups. Is there any particular reason for this? I dont see it adding any value. Further, the same groups are not restricted to any given language. I propose merging two sections and clean up the list. Truther2012 ( talk) 15:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Done Truther2012 ( talk) 20:21, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
This section is questionable. It's very short, not referenced, and in my view does not add any more information that is particular to Continental Freemasonry in North America. I propose deleting it altogether. Truther2012 ( talk) 15:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
My point is less about references, but more about fit. This section may make sense in the overall Continental Freemasonry, since the different names are not North America-specific. Truther2012 ( talk) 20:23, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
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