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This article reads like a treatise from the catholic church against freemasonry. It needs a serious look to assert NPOV, facts need to be ascertained, and allegations and weasel words removed. I would suggest speedy deletion for a series non-NPOV writing. docboat 11:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Right off the bat, when it says that one author has used the term, that establishes this as a neologism.-- Vidkun 18:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I've looked a bit further. Latin Freemasonry seems to be a fairly common shorthand, but rather dispariging (all three references seem to be from different times and perspectives, but they all seem to dislike Latin Freemasonry). Irregular Freemasonry is a perjorative term from the UGLE freemasons, so while probably the most common English language term it would be equivalent to calling Protestants "schismatics". The two terms that I've found that seem to be self described are "Liberal Freemasonry" from the French and "Adogmatic Freemasonry" from the Belgians.
I prefer "liberal" to "adogmatic" for the following reasons: (1) it comes from the GOdF website; (2) it seems to be in more common currency in the English speaking world; and (3) it just trips off the tongue better.
I'll rename this article to "Liberal Freemasonry" if no-one has any objections.
JASpencer 19:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Where is the original research in this article? It seems that the tag has been simply copied over from the Catholicism and Freemasonry article and in that article the tag applied specifically to a section on Mexico that was deliberately not copied over.
I'm sure that there will be some objections but there really should not be an OR tag unless its explained why in the talk pages.
That's why I'm removing it for now. Feel free to give some specific examples of Original Research on the Talk Page and to add the tag back.
JASpencer 20:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
For the purposes of centralized discussion, please see Talk:Catholicism and Freemasonry#Proposed merger with Latin Freemasonry. Thank you. John Carter 21:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The entire Anti-clerical part of this argument is based on some serious misconceptions. At Catholicism and Freemasonry we had the situation where all of Freemasonry was being tarred with the same brush... I think (correct me if I am wrong) this article was created in part because it was understood that this was both POV and incorrect. I think the concept is that if we break off "Latin" Freemasonry into its own article, and re-frame the arguments and allegations so that they talk about only one part of Freemasonry, they will be seen as being more valid. If we use a very broad brush... this is in some ways true. Or at least it is less false than saying they are true of all Freemasonry. In general, those Grand Orients and Grand Lodges that are part of what JASpencer want to call "Latin" (or "Liberal") Freemasonry have been more involved in politics than the mainstreem Anglo branch. And because "Latin" politics is all but inseperable from religious issues (at least historically), "Latin" Freemasonry has also been more involved in religion.
HOWEVER... one can not use a broad brush. While mainstreem Anglo style Freemasonry has remained fairly unified, the same can not be said of "Continental"/"Liberal"/"Latin"/etc. style Freemasonry. That branch is extremely splintered and factionalized. There are something like 800 bodies claiming to be Masonic Grand Lodges or Grand Orients in France alone. All over Europe and Latin America (the two areas of the world where this style of Freemasonry is common) It was very common for splinter groups to break off and form a rival Grand Body (often using the same name, each claiming to be the "true" body). SOME of these bodies have taken formal political stances. But very often, this stance would cause yet another split because there would be a sub-group that would disagree with that stance.
Thus, ANY argument that Freemasonry (even narrowing it further and saying "Latin" Freemasonry) is Anti-clerical is simply incorrect. All you can say is that some Freemasons, or some Freemasonic bodies, were Anti-clerical. But then that is simply a statement that reflects the fact that Freemasons come from a broad spectrum of society. You can just as easily point to Masons and Masonic bodies that were not Anti-clerical. There have been Freemasons on just about every side of every political and religious issue since the 1600s.
Thus, the "nightmare" of the Synt and other OR problems, and the POV problems, that were noted in the original Catholicism and Freemasonry article are still present here. We still have Synt problems such as saying: famous person X was a Freemason, X was anti-Clerical, thus all (Latin) Freemasonry is anti-clerical. We still have selected quotation, cherry picked from sources and taken out of context. And we still have major POV problems.... Only ONE of which is the fact that there is a serious Undue Weight issue here. If this is supposed to be about Latin Lodges, we should not spend over two thirds of the article on allegations of "Anti-clericism". We should be discussing history, we should be discussing ritual and membership requirements, we should be discussing the host of things that make "latin" freemasonry different from other forms of Freemasonry. Blueboar 21:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
ALR - of course I appreciate that this looks like an attempt to rescue older material - but it is simply a consequence of that information being the easiest on topic information on hand. If this did not have any information on anti-clericalism then there would be a perception of bias towards the UGLE affiliated lodges. The fact is that Wikipedia is going to reflect the two things that English speakers know about the Latin Lodges - that they are not affiliated with the English speaking Freemasons and that they are or were actively anticlerical. JASpencer 09:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I have reduced the article by two thirds and sharply pruned the anti-clerical section. I do not think that removing any mention of anti-clericalism is a good idea as the relationship between freemasonry and the church was fundamental in the evolution of the "Latin" Lodges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JASpencer ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
If anyone has a better suggestion than Liberal Freemasonry (the GOdF's term) then I'm all ears. JASpencer 21:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
With all this in mind I'm going to copy this to the central project discussion. here
I don't really mind if it's marked as a stub or not, but I thought that the project tags were supposed to reflect whether the article was marked as a stub, which it isn't (and really should not be for the sake of a content dispute). JASpencer 21:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to add membership in CLIPSAS to the definition, then we definitely need to change the name away from "Latin" Freemasonry. That organization includes bodies that are in no way shape or form "Latin". I also would have to seriously examine how any discussion of "Anti-clericism" was presented... some of these Masonic bodies have never expressed or been accused of any anti-clerical views. Blueboar 00:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The article as it stands seems to have a very pronounced bias toward what calls itself "regular" Freemasonry. I have to believe that all such indications of "choice" regarding this matters are very possibly violations of WP:NPOV. It is not the place of the body which continues to bear the name of an organization to say that those who separated from that body are the ones who changed. In fact, it is regularly contended that by many of these so-called "splinter" organizations that they maintain the true traditions, and that the so-called "main" body was the one that deviated from the original principles. We, as objective outsiders, really cannot take a position one way or another. I honestly believe that this content, which seems to reflect a possible inherent "regular" Freemasonry POV, should be removed as being inherently POV. John Carter 22:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I do agree that the issue of Anti-clericism should be adressed (just make sure that it is done in with a NPOV and without slipping into OR)... but that raises another issue. In all of the other articles that touch upon this subject ( Catholicism and Freemasonry, Grand Orient de France, etc.) we tend to focus on the 19th and early 20th centuries... but what about today? Are these bodies still expressing Anti-clerical sentiments? We touch upon this with GLdF's recent statement about Laicite... we should find out what the other Grand Lodges and Grand Orients have to say on the matter (if they do say anything... and if they don't say anything, that too should be mentioned... as it is something of an indication that this is no longer an issue as far as they are concerned). Just some food for thought and something for someone to research. Blueboar 01:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
There's a German article on the subject here:
JASpencer 22:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
So the name needs to be changed. That seems to be the agreement. Here are the suggestions, can people think of any more? I'm going to cover four areas - Neutrality, Inclusiveness, Clarity, Usage.
This is just to kick things off. If people think that I've missed any out or that this may not be reflecting concerns, then please let me know.
JASpencer ( talk) 10:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Minor note: in the "Oriental" option above, I changed the example of a UGLE recognized Grand Orient... JAS had listed the Italy as the example... but UGLE doesn't recognize the Grand Orient of Italy (it recognizes the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy... see: this list from the UGLE website.) I substituted Brazil instead. Blueboar ( talk) 16:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The lead needs a major rewite... it currently states: Latin Freemasonry is a term a number of authors have given for the Masonic lodges, mainly in countries speaking Romance languages, that recognise the Grand Orient de France (GOdF) or belong to CLIPSAS. Alternative terms include Liberal Freemasonry, Adogmatic Freemasonry or Irregular Freemasonry.
The problem is that all these terms are not completely interchangable. There are "Latin" lodges that do not recognize GOdF (or are recognized by GOdF), nor belong to CLIPSAS. And the terms "Liberal Freemasonry" and "Irregular Freemasonry" include a lot more than just "Latin" lodges (I am less definite on Adogmatic, as this is the first time I have seen the term used)... they also are used for more than GOdF lodges or CLIPSAS lodges.
I think part of the problem stems from the fact that while the terms are not interchangable, they can and do overlap... you can have a Liberal lodge that also is a Latin lodge, and is considered Irregular by a third lodge (which might also be a Liberal, Latin lodge itself). But the overlap is not all encompassing... not all Irregular lodges are Liberal (some are considered Irregular for other reasons)... and not all Liberal lodges are Latin. Toss in Irregularity and we really messed things up, since irregularity is defined by individual Grand Lodges and Grand Orients and basically can be defined as "anything we don't recognize as being regular". Blueboar ( talk) 18:36, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe it is somewhat required that the party who insisted restoring this tag stating clearly and explicitly what OR he sees. I also hope that he realizes the difference between OR and POV, a differentiation he has previously seemed to have difficulty making. John Carter ( talk) 22:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The issue of what to title this article has fallen by the wayside for a while... It is time to settle it. Above, we list the various reasons for and against our options... but we leave out one of the most inportant. What Wikipedia policy states on the matter. Since our last discussion, I have had a chance to familiarize myself with the Wikipedia:Naming conventions... The guideline seems clear that we should use whichever name is the most commonly used by English speakers (as this is the English version of Wikipedia), with any alternate names listed in bold in the lead.
So I thought I would see what the usages on the web (as determined through a simple Google search) came out to. The breakdown is as follows:
The break down is essentially the same if you substitute the shorthand "Masonry" in place of "Freemasonry" ("Continental Masonry" gets the vast majority of hits).
While I have no handy way of compiling usage in purely print sources, I know from my own reading and experience that the breakdown is even more in favor of "Continental".
I therefor formally Propose that we change the name of this article to "Continental Freemasonry", with the others listed in bold in the lead. Are there any objections? Blueboar ( talk) 18:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
If it's in WP:NAME then I'm fine with Continental Freemasonry. I thought that the policy was towards self descriptions. As far as the merging goes, I don't think that's a very good idea. JASpencer ( talk) 20:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
For further information on this see Talk:Grand Orient of the United States. JASpencer ( talk) 19:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the information on the jurisdictional issue that occurred in Lousiana with GODF (which had, in part, a focus on racism), which lead to the first derecognition of GODF, should be left in. Additionally, if we're going to point out in the article that a lot of "Continental Freemasonry" is unrecognized by UGLE aligned groups, we need to show both sides of the history of recognition of GODF, which Bessel has researched.-- Vidkun ( talk) 14:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Since when is quoting from a reputable Anglo-American source 'contentious'? Voltairesghost ( talk) 15:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
This is a sore subject to many of the Anglo-American Masons that are involved in this article. However, it is worthy of being noted in consideration that there is ample evidence to show that the "1877 schism" originated in the GOdF declaration of equality among the races. It is also a matter of historic fact that the African-American counterpart ( Prince Hall) to American Grand Lodges were not allowed intervisitation until at least 1989. To this day there are still numerous GLs that refuse to admit men based solely on the color of their skin. (On a personal note, I was made a Mason in one of these lodges and demitted my membership once I understood the depth of the racism that was going on in the lodge.)-- Voltairesghost ( talk) 21:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
The new version of the Recognition section seems to be written as if directly from the perspective of an Anglo-American Mason. The article is not about Anglo-American Masons. The previous edit that I made was specifically to remove the bias that was previously perceived, yet now it is even less NPOV than mine. Either the bias can be balanaced to find a center or I am done for good. I have wasted hours of my time on this section only to have it butchered by someone with a slanted perspective that intends to make it look like Continental Masonry is some illegitimate organization. We have as much right to exist as you do, the sooner you realize this the easier it will get. I am not saying that I am perfect, and I try to change what I write when you say that it is biased since I am still relatively new to wikipedia. However, this continual onslaught of turning the articles in favor of your tradition is not called for. I have a number of my brothers on speed dial, should I call them to start changing Anglo-American articles at random to speak from a Contiental Masonic perspective? NO, because it violates the precious NPOV. So, continually inserting how big your group of masons is in an article that has nothing to do with your group is a violation of NPOV. I'm done for now, you guys need to seriously check yourselves. You keep blowing the NPOV whistle on me, but you are constantly gearing these articles in favor of yourselves. Kinda reminds me of the saying that you should remove the mote in your own eye before trying to remove the splinter in your neighbor's eye.-- Voltairesghost ( talk) 21:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I have attempted to fix several of the issues that have been discussed above. I have attempted to discuss the history of the schism between the Anglo-American tradition and the Continental tradition in a neutral tone... explaining the rationals for each side without stating or implying that one or the other is "correct".
We still need to work on the section that traces the in and outs of the Belief in Deity requirement... I am not happy with all the quotations (it is easy to take such quotes out of context, and so much depends on what you quote and what you do not quote... for example, I note that we do not include what is said on the matter in the old charges, nor do we mention the bit in Anderson's Constitutions where he says that a Mason should not be a "stupid atheist"). I think it is worth discussing the difference of opinion between the two traditions on this matter (as it is central to the split between them), but surely we can do so without attempting to "prove" one view right or wrong. Blueboar ( talk) 14:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
The article states: "In most Latin countries, the GOdF-style or European Continental Freemasonry predominates"... while I think this is probably an accurate statement, I have a problem with the source that was used: a New York Times article dating from 1918. This may be enough to show that the Continental tradition predominated in 1918... but it is not enough to show that it predominates today. We need a more modern analysis. Blueboar ( talk) 15:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I note one serious problem with this section... according to its heading it is supposed to be discussing the history behind the different attitudes between the Continental and Anglo traditons towards the belief in Deity... but most of the quotes that VG added do not deal with this issue... instead they deal with the issue of having a Bible on the altar vs. the Book of constitutions. While these are certainly related, they are not exactly the same issue. It is concievable for a Grand Lodge to require its members to have a belief in Deity without requiring that a bible go on lodge altars.
That said, I am aware that the Continental tradition lodges say that the requirement of a belief in Deity was an innovation added by Anglo-Freemasonry around the time of the formation of UGLE, and that their removal of this requirement in 1877 was a return to ancient tradition. That is also worth mentioning.
In other words, we should be discussing the debate... not trying to prove one side or the other "correct". Blueboar ( talk) 14:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Any reference to materials (regius in this case) before the seventeenth century is not pertaining to speculative Freemasonry, it is operative. Although the archaic history of the masons and builders of antiquity is interesting, there is no concrete evidence to link their guilds with speculative Freemasonry. You guys should stick with the real history of the craft and not its mythological origins. What next, a quote from the old testament about King Solomon? I love how this article has become a compare and contrast article for Anglo-American Freemasonry. They would never allow for this to occur on their articles, but it is okay to degenerate articles not about them in this manner. NPOV is one thing, but this is just an advertisement for Anglo-Masonry. Such a pity...diversity should be applauded in this type of online community. Where are the comparisons to Continental Freemasonry on the Freemasonry page? Curious that this article is filled with them, yet I am hard pressed to see any on the other article. Voltairesghost ( talk) 21:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
VG has a point. There is a systemic bias in all the Freemasonry articles and he's hit the nail on the head as to why. Yes the UGLE have more members but the Continental tradition were at least as (in my opinion far more) historically significant because of their role in politics. In histories of English speaking countries Freemasonry is dealt with in social history, in histories of the Latin language countries it is political history. The article should reflect that and not dwell on what the UGLE thinks of them. JASpencer ( talk) 22:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
JASpencer remvoed the NOR tag from the "relationship with the Catholic Church" section. I have returned it. The issue isn't that the material lacks citation... the issue is WP:SYNT. The entire section is OR, not the individual statements within it. Blueboar ( talk) 03:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Source 5 for irregular masonry is a biased source from UGLE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.200.28.150 ( talk) 06:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes we can ignore this is not an article of UGLE Freemasonry. You want to talk UGLE Freemasonry go to that page. No Liberal Masons terms themselves Irregular therefore is a correct assertion of NPOV. The only scholar that would call anything irregular is those held under the UGLE sway. If you want to go to great lengths on the 'regular' masonry page to painfully deliniate the two major streams of Masonry as you do on this page then be my guest. Until then you are being self serving talking out of both sides of your mouth and are quite rightly seen as hypocritical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.200.28.150 ( talk) 10:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Again I refer you to your NPOV policy with your hypocritical stance in light of both articles. If you change the Freemasonry page to such great pains to show such delination with the two major branches of freemasonry as you did with this article I'd actually respect you. However, you hide behind NPOV policy with you non biased point of view. Do you include all forms of seemingly perjorative terms that the Continental Brand could call UGLE style Freemasonry? No, I didnt think so just like with the delination of Masonries therefore you are biased in the article, and my premise is therefore correct. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.200.28.150 (
talk)
00:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The "irregular" reference was faulty, returning a 404, so I've changed it to this, which I think is the same speech (it's by the same person and mentions "irregular" lodges). The only problem is that it does not seem to actually say that Continental Freemasonry is "irregular" In both uses of the words "irregular" it refers specifically to the period after the Second World War:
and:
As Continental Freemasonry first split from the UGLE style Freemasonry in the late Nineteenth Century, he is clearly not saying that he thinks that Continental Freemasonry is irregular, or that it is the only type of irregular freemasonry. He may believe those two propositions, but that isn't what he's saying so I'm taking irregular freemasonry out of this as an alternate source.
JASpencer ( talk) 10:01, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Outdenting - I'd have to agree with JASpencer on this one, for a number of reasons. First of all, Englefield'ss address uses the term irregular ONCE, and does not specify that it is continental freemasonry to which he is referring - that is an inference not specifically stated in the cited work. Additionally, Hodapp's blog is also not a direct definition of continental freemasonry as irregular, but a discussion of a spat between a number of break away bodies in the US. Finally, we could easily use the argument about presenting all of the POVs to put the word Satanic into the lede of the article about Freemasonry, after all, there is a significant chunk of believers out there who think that.-- Vidkun ( talk) 20:53, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
This is incorrect and you again dont know what you are talking about. The GOdF merely went back to the previous language usage. It was the UGLE whom changed particularly with their Church of England Protestant Masonry. Of course too no one likes to talk about the grand lodges who recognized GOdF during WWI, so lets just stick our heads to the earth like ostriches and pretend it doesnt exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.155.142.36 ( talk) 23:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
I know we have a source for this statement (and I will not remove it without a good source to counter it) but looking at the (admittedly very incomplete) numbers given in our List of Masonic Grand Lodges article, I am not sure if it is correct any more. It certainly was true in the final decades of the last century, but it may be outdated information. I know that there has been a boom in American style York Rite Masonry in most South American nations since the millennium. We should look to see if there are more recent sources... they may say something different. Blueboar ( talk) 00:35, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Superscript text
Just as a note, I've removed and then restored Englefield as a citation. Although he uses the term "Irregular Freemasonry" and talks about these lodges discussing religion and politics it's by no means clear that these lodges are connected to any of the large Latin lodges such as France, Italy or Spain and neither does he make out that they are influenced by their ideas. It similarly did not mention bodies such as CLIPSAS. Many lodges are judged irregular because they are overtly religious or occult, and this seems to be likely in Eastern Europe. There may be an anti-clerical, left wing or atheist tinge to some of the lodges but then again there may not. The article is simply unclear.
This seems to simply be here to prove that the term "Irregular Freemasonry" is used, not that it is used in connection to lodges such as the Grand Orient de France or bodies such as CLIPSAS.
JASpencer ( talk) 10:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
(outdent)(skip down for the TL;DR) The blogs are generally no good as sources, but they do give direction. Yarker, yes, as he was a huge reason for (or a big part of) the problem. Nevertheless, I think we're dancing all around the basic definition. Irregular is varied in usage because of the following: any body that does not follow the Landmarks as set down by UGLE is not recognized as "regular." Therefore, it is "irregular." (Before anyone asks, I don't know what happens when a new GL is constituted and not yet recognized, so ignore that situation). The Landmarks cover a lot of ground - needs a Volume of Sacred Law, no religion, no politics, no women (directly in Lodge meetings or as members, mind you; plenty of refs to support women at public events). The other reason a body is irregular is because it is trafficking in degrees unscrupulously such that someone receiving the degrees and thinking they are "X" won't be allowed to go to any "X" meetings, because they're really not "X" as far as everyone else is concerned that's (Yarker, UGLA/GOOFUS/GOUSA, RGLE, and any of the irregular PHA groups). I'm not sure about OTO - I know their framework comes from Masonry (as do many fraternities and other groups), but neither UGLE nor OTO considered OTO to be such as far as I am aware. I'd re-read the BC&Y item; that sounds like a mistake they wouldn't make. (TL;DR)Irregularity is mainly based on not complying with Landmarks and thereby not being recognized by a regular GL. There are a lot of Landmarks, so irregularity has a broad scope. However, we need to focus on its use as it pertains to this article, not discuss every group it might apply to even if they are not "Continental".
We take this same tack with nationality - A Scotsman is a citizen of Scotland, either by birth or naturalization. If he moves to India for a job, he is still a Scotsman - where he lives is irrelevant. Now, other people might say that that Scotsman is actually "British," and legally, they would be correct, although the Scotsman may claim otherwise (this is why we needed a policy here on WP to clarify that usage). So this is nationality vs. location.
Similarly, a Freemason (person) is irregular (or a Scotsman) because of the body where he or she belongs (their "nationality"). Where that body is (its location) is irrelevant, because they're all irregular (or Scotsmen). However, in relation to a specific type of irregular ("a particular Scotsman"), irregular Freemasonry elsewhere ("another Scotsman") is also not relevant. MSJapan ( talk) 17:17, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
As we're not going to get concensus on this quote or source I've put this to the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Irregular_Freemasonry:_Speech_to_UGLE Reliable Sources noticeboard. JASpencer ( talk) 21:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
The Hodapp quote is clearly insufficient for the use of "Irregular Freemasonry" as an alternate term, because he doesn't use the term "Alternate Freemasonry" although in one of the three places where he uses the word "irregular" he does us it in relation to the Grand Orient de France and so it is of marginal use as a source for saying that Liberal Freemasonry is viewed as irregular by conservative lodges. I'll try to find a better source for you. JASpencer ( talk) 19:13, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
There only seems to be one source for this wording (I have looked for others), and that itself is imperfect in that he is referring to the GWU and the GOUSA which are as well as being in the Liberal orbit also very small and (in the case of the GOUSA) vexatious - two things which Hodapp associates with "Irregularity" and finally the only part where he definitively equates irregularity with the whole tradition of Liberal Freemasonry is:
There are plenty of references in Hodapp's blog to irregularity but they are in the most part to things like the Sons of Haiti. A theme of the blog is that outside the Anglo-American tradition there is no real Masonry. Clearly the article is about the GOUSA and the GWU and not about the Continental Tradition - as shown by the fact that Grand Orient of France is mentioned twice and both times deep in the body of the entry. As I've said before the blog entry clearly does show that Liberal Freemasonry is regarded as irregular by the UGLE, but that is already stated and cited in the opening paragraph. It does not show that it is called the "Irregular World" by even Hodapp. JASpencer ( talk) 00:14, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
How does that make sense? Anglo Masons speaking about what they dont know about again. GWU was the original English speaking Grand Orient de France in America i.e. they have a patent to make lodge via GOdF. It would blow your mind to know it was the GOUSA and not the GOdF that had beef which recinded the amity between the two bodies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.155.142.36 ( talk) 23:23, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Must blow your mind that an anonymous IP knows more about the world of Cosmopolitan Freemasonry than you do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.99.13.73 ( talk) 21:57, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
See Talk:Louis André#Larkin, Church and State -- PBS ( talk) 13:21, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
I came across this source maintains that "liberal" refers to membership, and "adogmatic" - to Supreme Being. The source appears to have NPOV, despite coming from Anglo-American side of masonry. If it is correct, then "liberal" does not equal "adogmatic" does not equal "Continental." From that classification point, Anglo-American masonry would be considered "conservative" and "dogmatic". Can anyone confirm or deny this? Truther2012 ( talk) 13:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I am bringing this up less for the naming convention or recognition, but rather classification methodology within Continental branch. According to the above source, bodies within Continental can be classified along Liberal – Conservative / Dogmatic – Adogmatic continuums. In this sense, one dimension refers to the issue of female membership (mixed/female only = Liberal, male only = Conservative), the other to the issue of VSOL and Supreme Being (required = Dogmatic, none = Adogmatic). This wouldn’t be applicable to Anglo-Am, because by definition it is homogeneously Conservative and Adogmatic. Truther2012 ( talk) 13:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I have removed our mention of the Grand Orient of the United States of America from the North America section... it seems that they may have folded. Their website has been down for over a year now. Even if there is a rump group out there, that rump is so tiny that I think we can omit them from the article based on WP:UNDUE. Blueboar ( talk) 15:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
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I have removed a recent addition stating that the Anglo-American tradition of not discussing politics in the lodge led to Masons turning a blind eye to institutional racism. The source does not support this conclusion. Yes, much to the shame of modern Freemasons, there was (and in a few jurisdictions still is) institutional racism in US Masonry... and the source highlights this well. But it does not connect that (mostly historic) racism to the tradition of not discussing politics. Blueboar ( talk) 17:55, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
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This article reads like a treatise from the catholic church against freemasonry. It needs a serious look to assert NPOV, facts need to be ascertained, and allegations and weasel words removed. I would suggest speedy deletion for a series non-NPOV writing. docboat 11:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Right off the bat, when it says that one author has used the term, that establishes this as a neologism.-- Vidkun 18:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I've looked a bit further. Latin Freemasonry seems to be a fairly common shorthand, but rather dispariging (all three references seem to be from different times and perspectives, but they all seem to dislike Latin Freemasonry). Irregular Freemasonry is a perjorative term from the UGLE freemasons, so while probably the most common English language term it would be equivalent to calling Protestants "schismatics". The two terms that I've found that seem to be self described are "Liberal Freemasonry" from the French and "Adogmatic Freemasonry" from the Belgians.
I prefer "liberal" to "adogmatic" for the following reasons: (1) it comes from the GOdF website; (2) it seems to be in more common currency in the English speaking world; and (3) it just trips off the tongue better.
I'll rename this article to "Liberal Freemasonry" if no-one has any objections.
JASpencer 19:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Where is the original research in this article? It seems that the tag has been simply copied over from the Catholicism and Freemasonry article and in that article the tag applied specifically to a section on Mexico that was deliberately not copied over.
I'm sure that there will be some objections but there really should not be an OR tag unless its explained why in the talk pages.
That's why I'm removing it for now. Feel free to give some specific examples of Original Research on the Talk Page and to add the tag back.
JASpencer 20:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
For the purposes of centralized discussion, please see Talk:Catholicism and Freemasonry#Proposed merger with Latin Freemasonry. Thank you. John Carter 21:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The entire Anti-clerical part of this argument is based on some serious misconceptions. At Catholicism and Freemasonry we had the situation where all of Freemasonry was being tarred with the same brush... I think (correct me if I am wrong) this article was created in part because it was understood that this was both POV and incorrect. I think the concept is that if we break off "Latin" Freemasonry into its own article, and re-frame the arguments and allegations so that they talk about only one part of Freemasonry, they will be seen as being more valid. If we use a very broad brush... this is in some ways true. Or at least it is less false than saying they are true of all Freemasonry. In general, those Grand Orients and Grand Lodges that are part of what JASpencer want to call "Latin" (or "Liberal") Freemasonry have been more involved in politics than the mainstreem Anglo branch. And because "Latin" politics is all but inseperable from religious issues (at least historically), "Latin" Freemasonry has also been more involved in religion.
HOWEVER... one can not use a broad brush. While mainstreem Anglo style Freemasonry has remained fairly unified, the same can not be said of "Continental"/"Liberal"/"Latin"/etc. style Freemasonry. That branch is extremely splintered and factionalized. There are something like 800 bodies claiming to be Masonic Grand Lodges or Grand Orients in France alone. All over Europe and Latin America (the two areas of the world where this style of Freemasonry is common) It was very common for splinter groups to break off and form a rival Grand Body (often using the same name, each claiming to be the "true" body). SOME of these bodies have taken formal political stances. But very often, this stance would cause yet another split because there would be a sub-group that would disagree with that stance.
Thus, ANY argument that Freemasonry (even narrowing it further and saying "Latin" Freemasonry) is Anti-clerical is simply incorrect. All you can say is that some Freemasons, or some Freemasonic bodies, were Anti-clerical. But then that is simply a statement that reflects the fact that Freemasons come from a broad spectrum of society. You can just as easily point to Masons and Masonic bodies that were not Anti-clerical. There have been Freemasons on just about every side of every political and religious issue since the 1600s.
Thus, the "nightmare" of the Synt and other OR problems, and the POV problems, that were noted in the original Catholicism and Freemasonry article are still present here. We still have Synt problems such as saying: famous person X was a Freemason, X was anti-Clerical, thus all (Latin) Freemasonry is anti-clerical. We still have selected quotation, cherry picked from sources and taken out of context. And we still have major POV problems.... Only ONE of which is the fact that there is a serious Undue Weight issue here. If this is supposed to be about Latin Lodges, we should not spend over two thirds of the article on allegations of "Anti-clericism". We should be discussing history, we should be discussing ritual and membership requirements, we should be discussing the host of things that make "latin" freemasonry different from other forms of Freemasonry. Blueboar 21:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
ALR - of course I appreciate that this looks like an attempt to rescue older material - but it is simply a consequence of that information being the easiest on topic information on hand. If this did not have any information on anti-clericalism then there would be a perception of bias towards the UGLE affiliated lodges. The fact is that Wikipedia is going to reflect the two things that English speakers know about the Latin Lodges - that they are not affiliated with the English speaking Freemasons and that they are or were actively anticlerical. JASpencer 09:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
I have reduced the article by two thirds and sharply pruned the anti-clerical section. I do not think that removing any mention of anti-clericalism is a good idea as the relationship between freemasonry and the church was fundamental in the evolution of the "Latin" Lodges. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JASpencer ( talk • contribs) 09:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
If anyone has a better suggestion than Liberal Freemasonry (the GOdF's term) then I'm all ears. JASpencer 21:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
With all this in mind I'm going to copy this to the central project discussion. here
I don't really mind if it's marked as a stub or not, but I thought that the project tags were supposed to reflect whether the article was marked as a stub, which it isn't (and really should not be for the sake of a content dispute). JASpencer 21:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
If we are going to add membership in CLIPSAS to the definition, then we definitely need to change the name away from "Latin" Freemasonry. That organization includes bodies that are in no way shape or form "Latin". I also would have to seriously examine how any discussion of "Anti-clericism" was presented... some of these Masonic bodies have never expressed or been accused of any anti-clerical views. Blueboar 00:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
The article as it stands seems to have a very pronounced bias toward what calls itself "regular" Freemasonry. I have to believe that all such indications of "choice" regarding this matters are very possibly violations of WP:NPOV. It is not the place of the body which continues to bear the name of an organization to say that those who separated from that body are the ones who changed. In fact, it is regularly contended that by many of these so-called "splinter" organizations that they maintain the true traditions, and that the so-called "main" body was the one that deviated from the original principles. We, as objective outsiders, really cannot take a position one way or another. I honestly believe that this content, which seems to reflect a possible inherent "regular" Freemasonry POV, should be removed as being inherently POV. John Carter 22:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I do agree that the issue of Anti-clericism should be adressed (just make sure that it is done in with a NPOV and without slipping into OR)... but that raises another issue. In all of the other articles that touch upon this subject ( Catholicism and Freemasonry, Grand Orient de France, etc.) we tend to focus on the 19th and early 20th centuries... but what about today? Are these bodies still expressing Anti-clerical sentiments? We touch upon this with GLdF's recent statement about Laicite... we should find out what the other Grand Lodges and Grand Orients have to say on the matter (if they do say anything... and if they don't say anything, that too should be mentioned... as it is something of an indication that this is no longer an issue as far as they are concerned). Just some food for thought and something for someone to research. Blueboar 01:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
There's a German article on the subject here:
JASpencer 22:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
So the name needs to be changed. That seems to be the agreement. Here are the suggestions, can people think of any more? I'm going to cover four areas - Neutrality, Inclusiveness, Clarity, Usage.
This is just to kick things off. If people think that I've missed any out or that this may not be reflecting concerns, then please let me know.
JASpencer ( talk) 10:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Minor note: in the "Oriental" option above, I changed the example of a UGLE recognized Grand Orient... JAS had listed the Italy as the example... but UGLE doesn't recognize the Grand Orient of Italy (it recognizes the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy... see: this list from the UGLE website.) I substituted Brazil instead. Blueboar ( talk) 16:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The lead needs a major rewite... it currently states: Latin Freemasonry is a term a number of authors have given for the Masonic lodges, mainly in countries speaking Romance languages, that recognise the Grand Orient de France (GOdF) or belong to CLIPSAS. Alternative terms include Liberal Freemasonry, Adogmatic Freemasonry or Irregular Freemasonry.
The problem is that all these terms are not completely interchangable. There are "Latin" lodges that do not recognize GOdF (or are recognized by GOdF), nor belong to CLIPSAS. And the terms "Liberal Freemasonry" and "Irregular Freemasonry" include a lot more than just "Latin" lodges (I am less definite on Adogmatic, as this is the first time I have seen the term used)... they also are used for more than GOdF lodges or CLIPSAS lodges.
I think part of the problem stems from the fact that while the terms are not interchangable, they can and do overlap... you can have a Liberal lodge that also is a Latin lodge, and is considered Irregular by a third lodge (which might also be a Liberal, Latin lodge itself). But the overlap is not all encompassing... not all Irregular lodges are Liberal (some are considered Irregular for other reasons)... and not all Liberal lodges are Latin. Toss in Irregularity and we really messed things up, since irregularity is defined by individual Grand Lodges and Grand Orients and basically can be defined as "anything we don't recognize as being regular". Blueboar ( talk) 18:36, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe it is somewhat required that the party who insisted restoring this tag stating clearly and explicitly what OR he sees. I also hope that he realizes the difference between OR and POV, a differentiation he has previously seemed to have difficulty making. John Carter ( talk) 22:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The issue of what to title this article has fallen by the wayside for a while... It is time to settle it. Above, we list the various reasons for and against our options... but we leave out one of the most inportant. What Wikipedia policy states on the matter. Since our last discussion, I have had a chance to familiarize myself with the Wikipedia:Naming conventions... The guideline seems clear that we should use whichever name is the most commonly used by English speakers (as this is the English version of Wikipedia), with any alternate names listed in bold in the lead.
So I thought I would see what the usages on the web (as determined through a simple Google search) came out to. The breakdown is as follows:
The break down is essentially the same if you substitute the shorthand "Masonry" in place of "Freemasonry" ("Continental Masonry" gets the vast majority of hits).
While I have no handy way of compiling usage in purely print sources, I know from my own reading and experience that the breakdown is even more in favor of "Continental".
I therefor formally Propose that we change the name of this article to "Continental Freemasonry", with the others listed in bold in the lead. Are there any objections? Blueboar ( talk) 18:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
If it's in WP:NAME then I'm fine with Continental Freemasonry. I thought that the policy was towards self descriptions. As far as the merging goes, I don't think that's a very good idea. JASpencer ( talk) 20:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
For further information on this see Talk:Grand Orient of the United States. JASpencer ( talk) 19:33, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
I think the information on the jurisdictional issue that occurred in Lousiana with GODF (which had, in part, a focus on racism), which lead to the first derecognition of GODF, should be left in. Additionally, if we're going to point out in the article that a lot of "Continental Freemasonry" is unrecognized by UGLE aligned groups, we need to show both sides of the history of recognition of GODF, which Bessel has researched.-- Vidkun ( talk) 14:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Since when is quoting from a reputable Anglo-American source 'contentious'? Voltairesghost ( talk) 15:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
This is a sore subject to many of the Anglo-American Masons that are involved in this article. However, it is worthy of being noted in consideration that there is ample evidence to show that the "1877 schism" originated in the GOdF declaration of equality among the races. It is also a matter of historic fact that the African-American counterpart ( Prince Hall) to American Grand Lodges were not allowed intervisitation until at least 1989. To this day there are still numerous GLs that refuse to admit men based solely on the color of their skin. (On a personal note, I was made a Mason in one of these lodges and demitted my membership once I understood the depth of the racism that was going on in the lodge.)-- Voltairesghost ( talk) 21:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
The new version of the Recognition section seems to be written as if directly from the perspective of an Anglo-American Mason. The article is not about Anglo-American Masons. The previous edit that I made was specifically to remove the bias that was previously perceived, yet now it is even less NPOV than mine. Either the bias can be balanaced to find a center or I am done for good. I have wasted hours of my time on this section only to have it butchered by someone with a slanted perspective that intends to make it look like Continental Masonry is some illegitimate organization. We have as much right to exist as you do, the sooner you realize this the easier it will get. I am not saying that I am perfect, and I try to change what I write when you say that it is biased since I am still relatively new to wikipedia. However, this continual onslaught of turning the articles in favor of your tradition is not called for. I have a number of my brothers on speed dial, should I call them to start changing Anglo-American articles at random to speak from a Contiental Masonic perspective? NO, because it violates the precious NPOV. So, continually inserting how big your group of masons is in an article that has nothing to do with your group is a violation of NPOV. I'm done for now, you guys need to seriously check yourselves. You keep blowing the NPOV whistle on me, but you are constantly gearing these articles in favor of yourselves. Kinda reminds me of the saying that you should remove the mote in your own eye before trying to remove the splinter in your neighbor's eye.-- Voltairesghost ( talk) 21:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
I have attempted to fix several of the issues that have been discussed above. I have attempted to discuss the history of the schism between the Anglo-American tradition and the Continental tradition in a neutral tone... explaining the rationals for each side without stating or implying that one or the other is "correct".
We still need to work on the section that traces the in and outs of the Belief in Deity requirement... I am not happy with all the quotations (it is easy to take such quotes out of context, and so much depends on what you quote and what you do not quote... for example, I note that we do not include what is said on the matter in the old charges, nor do we mention the bit in Anderson's Constitutions where he says that a Mason should not be a "stupid atheist"). I think it is worth discussing the difference of opinion between the two traditions on this matter (as it is central to the split between them), but surely we can do so without attempting to "prove" one view right or wrong. Blueboar ( talk) 14:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
The article states: "In most Latin countries, the GOdF-style or European Continental Freemasonry predominates"... while I think this is probably an accurate statement, I have a problem with the source that was used: a New York Times article dating from 1918. This may be enough to show that the Continental tradition predominated in 1918... but it is not enough to show that it predominates today. We need a more modern analysis. Blueboar ( talk) 15:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
I note one serious problem with this section... according to its heading it is supposed to be discussing the history behind the different attitudes between the Continental and Anglo traditons towards the belief in Deity... but most of the quotes that VG added do not deal with this issue... instead they deal with the issue of having a Bible on the altar vs. the Book of constitutions. While these are certainly related, they are not exactly the same issue. It is concievable for a Grand Lodge to require its members to have a belief in Deity without requiring that a bible go on lodge altars.
That said, I am aware that the Continental tradition lodges say that the requirement of a belief in Deity was an innovation added by Anglo-Freemasonry around the time of the formation of UGLE, and that their removal of this requirement in 1877 was a return to ancient tradition. That is also worth mentioning.
In other words, we should be discussing the debate... not trying to prove one side or the other "correct". Blueboar ( talk) 14:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
Any reference to materials (regius in this case) before the seventeenth century is not pertaining to speculative Freemasonry, it is operative. Although the archaic history of the masons and builders of antiquity is interesting, there is no concrete evidence to link their guilds with speculative Freemasonry. You guys should stick with the real history of the craft and not its mythological origins. What next, a quote from the old testament about King Solomon? I love how this article has become a compare and contrast article for Anglo-American Freemasonry. They would never allow for this to occur on their articles, but it is okay to degenerate articles not about them in this manner. NPOV is one thing, but this is just an advertisement for Anglo-Masonry. Such a pity...diversity should be applauded in this type of online community. Where are the comparisons to Continental Freemasonry on the Freemasonry page? Curious that this article is filled with them, yet I am hard pressed to see any on the other article. Voltairesghost ( talk) 21:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
VG has a point. There is a systemic bias in all the Freemasonry articles and he's hit the nail on the head as to why. Yes the UGLE have more members but the Continental tradition were at least as (in my opinion far more) historically significant because of their role in politics. In histories of English speaking countries Freemasonry is dealt with in social history, in histories of the Latin language countries it is political history. The article should reflect that and not dwell on what the UGLE thinks of them. JASpencer ( talk) 22:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
JASpencer remvoed the NOR tag from the "relationship with the Catholic Church" section. I have returned it. The issue isn't that the material lacks citation... the issue is WP:SYNT. The entire section is OR, not the individual statements within it. Blueboar ( talk) 03:27, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
Source 5 for irregular masonry is a biased source from UGLE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.200.28.150 ( talk) 06:34, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
Yes we can ignore this is not an article of UGLE Freemasonry. You want to talk UGLE Freemasonry go to that page. No Liberal Masons terms themselves Irregular therefore is a correct assertion of NPOV. The only scholar that would call anything irregular is those held under the UGLE sway. If you want to go to great lengths on the 'regular' masonry page to painfully deliniate the two major streams of Masonry as you do on this page then be my guest. Until then you are being self serving talking out of both sides of your mouth and are quite rightly seen as hypocritical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.200.28.150 ( talk) 10:01, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Again I refer you to your NPOV policy with your hypocritical stance in light of both articles. If you change the Freemasonry page to such great pains to show such delination with the two major branches of freemasonry as you did with this article I'd actually respect you. However, you hide behind NPOV policy with you non biased point of view. Do you include all forms of seemingly perjorative terms that the Continental Brand could call UGLE style Freemasonry? No, I didnt think so just like with the delination of Masonries therefore you are biased in the article, and my premise is therefore correct. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
68.200.28.150 (
talk)
00:09, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
The "irregular" reference was faulty, returning a 404, so I've changed it to this, which I think is the same speech (it's by the same person and mentions "irregular" lodges). The only problem is that it does not seem to actually say that Continental Freemasonry is "irregular" In both uses of the words "irregular" it refers specifically to the period after the Second World War:
and:
As Continental Freemasonry first split from the UGLE style Freemasonry in the late Nineteenth Century, he is clearly not saying that he thinks that Continental Freemasonry is irregular, or that it is the only type of irregular freemasonry. He may believe those two propositions, but that isn't what he's saying so I'm taking irregular freemasonry out of this as an alternate source.
JASpencer ( talk) 10:01, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Outdenting - I'd have to agree with JASpencer on this one, for a number of reasons. First of all, Englefield'ss address uses the term irregular ONCE, and does not specify that it is continental freemasonry to which he is referring - that is an inference not specifically stated in the cited work. Additionally, Hodapp's blog is also not a direct definition of continental freemasonry as irregular, but a discussion of a spat between a number of break away bodies in the US. Finally, we could easily use the argument about presenting all of the POVs to put the word Satanic into the lede of the article about Freemasonry, after all, there is a significant chunk of believers out there who think that.-- Vidkun ( talk) 20:53, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
This is incorrect and you again dont know what you are talking about. The GOdF merely went back to the previous language usage. It was the UGLE whom changed particularly with their Church of England Protestant Masonry. Of course too no one likes to talk about the grand lodges who recognized GOdF during WWI, so lets just stick our heads to the earth like ostriches and pretend it doesnt exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.155.142.36 ( talk) 23:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
I know we have a source for this statement (and I will not remove it without a good source to counter it) but looking at the (admittedly very incomplete) numbers given in our List of Masonic Grand Lodges article, I am not sure if it is correct any more. It certainly was true in the final decades of the last century, but it may be outdated information. I know that there has been a boom in American style York Rite Masonry in most South American nations since the millennium. We should look to see if there are more recent sources... they may say something different. Blueboar ( talk) 00:35, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Superscript text
Just as a note, I've removed and then restored Englefield as a citation. Although he uses the term "Irregular Freemasonry" and talks about these lodges discussing religion and politics it's by no means clear that these lodges are connected to any of the large Latin lodges such as France, Italy or Spain and neither does he make out that they are influenced by their ideas. It similarly did not mention bodies such as CLIPSAS. Many lodges are judged irregular because they are overtly religious or occult, and this seems to be likely in Eastern Europe. There may be an anti-clerical, left wing or atheist tinge to some of the lodges but then again there may not. The article is simply unclear.
This seems to simply be here to prove that the term "Irregular Freemasonry" is used, not that it is used in connection to lodges such as the Grand Orient de France or bodies such as CLIPSAS.
JASpencer ( talk) 10:56, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
(outdent)(skip down for the TL;DR) The blogs are generally no good as sources, but they do give direction. Yarker, yes, as he was a huge reason for (or a big part of) the problem. Nevertheless, I think we're dancing all around the basic definition. Irregular is varied in usage because of the following: any body that does not follow the Landmarks as set down by UGLE is not recognized as "regular." Therefore, it is "irregular." (Before anyone asks, I don't know what happens when a new GL is constituted and not yet recognized, so ignore that situation). The Landmarks cover a lot of ground - needs a Volume of Sacred Law, no religion, no politics, no women (directly in Lodge meetings or as members, mind you; plenty of refs to support women at public events). The other reason a body is irregular is because it is trafficking in degrees unscrupulously such that someone receiving the degrees and thinking they are "X" won't be allowed to go to any "X" meetings, because they're really not "X" as far as everyone else is concerned that's (Yarker, UGLA/GOOFUS/GOUSA, RGLE, and any of the irregular PHA groups). I'm not sure about OTO - I know their framework comes from Masonry (as do many fraternities and other groups), but neither UGLE nor OTO considered OTO to be such as far as I am aware. I'd re-read the BC&Y item; that sounds like a mistake they wouldn't make. (TL;DR)Irregularity is mainly based on not complying with Landmarks and thereby not being recognized by a regular GL. There are a lot of Landmarks, so irregularity has a broad scope. However, we need to focus on its use as it pertains to this article, not discuss every group it might apply to even if they are not "Continental".
We take this same tack with nationality - A Scotsman is a citizen of Scotland, either by birth or naturalization. If he moves to India for a job, he is still a Scotsman - where he lives is irrelevant. Now, other people might say that that Scotsman is actually "British," and legally, they would be correct, although the Scotsman may claim otherwise (this is why we needed a policy here on WP to clarify that usage). So this is nationality vs. location.
Similarly, a Freemason (person) is irregular (or a Scotsman) because of the body where he or she belongs (their "nationality"). Where that body is (its location) is irrelevant, because they're all irregular (or Scotsmen). However, in relation to a specific type of irregular ("a particular Scotsman"), irregular Freemasonry elsewhere ("another Scotsman") is also not relevant. MSJapan ( talk) 17:17, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
As we're not going to get concensus on this quote or source I've put this to the Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Irregular_Freemasonry:_Speech_to_UGLE Reliable Sources noticeboard. JASpencer ( talk) 21:47, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
The Hodapp quote is clearly insufficient for the use of "Irregular Freemasonry" as an alternate term, because he doesn't use the term "Alternate Freemasonry" although in one of the three places where he uses the word "irregular" he does us it in relation to the Grand Orient de France and so it is of marginal use as a source for saying that Liberal Freemasonry is viewed as irregular by conservative lodges. I'll try to find a better source for you. JASpencer ( talk) 19:13, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
There only seems to be one source for this wording (I have looked for others), and that itself is imperfect in that he is referring to the GWU and the GOUSA which are as well as being in the Liberal orbit also very small and (in the case of the GOUSA) vexatious - two things which Hodapp associates with "Irregularity" and finally the only part where he definitively equates irregularity with the whole tradition of Liberal Freemasonry is:
There are plenty of references in Hodapp's blog to irregularity but they are in the most part to things like the Sons of Haiti. A theme of the blog is that outside the Anglo-American tradition there is no real Masonry. Clearly the article is about the GOUSA and the GWU and not about the Continental Tradition - as shown by the fact that Grand Orient of France is mentioned twice and both times deep in the body of the entry. As I've said before the blog entry clearly does show that Liberal Freemasonry is regarded as irregular by the UGLE, but that is already stated and cited in the opening paragraph. It does not show that it is called the "Irregular World" by even Hodapp. JASpencer ( talk) 00:14, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
How does that make sense? Anglo Masons speaking about what they dont know about again. GWU was the original English speaking Grand Orient de France in America i.e. they have a patent to make lodge via GOdF. It would blow your mind to know it was the GOUSA and not the GOdF that had beef which recinded the amity between the two bodies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.155.142.36 ( talk) 23:23, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
Must blow your mind that an anonymous IP knows more about the world of Cosmopolitan Freemasonry than you do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.99.13.73 ( talk) 21:57, 29 June 2013 (UTC)
See Talk:Louis André#Larkin, Church and State -- PBS ( talk) 13:21, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
I came across this source maintains that "liberal" refers to membership, and "adogmatic" - to Supreme Being. The source appears to have NPOV, despite coming from Anglo-American side of masonry. If it is correct, then "liberal" does not equal "adogmatic" does not equal "Continental." From that classification point, Anglo-American masonry would be considered "conservative" and "dogmatic". Can anyone confirm or deny this? Truther2012 ( talk) 13:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I am bringing this up less for the naming convention or recognition, but rather classification methodology within Continental branch. According to the above source, bodies within Continental can be classified along Liberal – Conservative / Dogmatic – Adogmatic continuums. In this sense, one dimension refers to the issue of female membership (mixed/female only = Liberal, male only = Conservative), the other to the issue of VSOL and Supreme Being (required = Dogmatic, none = Adogmatic). This wouldn’t be applicable to Anglo-Am, because by definition it is homogeneously Conservative and Adogmatic. Truther2012 ( talk) 13:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
I have removed our mention of the Grand Orient of the United States of America from the North America section... it seems that they may have folded. Their website has been down for over a year now. Even if there is a rump group out there, that rump is so tiny that I think we can omit them from the article based on WP:UNDUE. Blueboar ( talk) 15:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
I have removed a recent addition stating that the Anglo-American tradition of not discussing politics in the lodge led to Masons turning a blind eye to institutional racism. The source does not support this conclusion. Yes, much to the shame of modern Freemasons, there was (and in a few jurisdictions still is) institutional racism in US Masonry... and the source highlights this well. But it does not connect that (mostly historic) racism to the tradition of not discussing politics. Blueboar ( talk) 17:55, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Regular Masonic jurisdiction which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 05:40, 21 March 2020 (UTC)