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It is correct that (ex-)King Constantine travels using a Danish diplomatic passport. But the passport doesn't name him as "King Constantine of Greece". According to the Danish tabloids, he passport names him as "DeGrecia" in (mock) Italian. I believe that his first name is spelled in Italian too ("Constantine DeGrecia"). In Denmark, the government recognizes Greece as a republic but Anne-Marie is still popular among the older generation. Queen Margrethe publicly refers to the couple as the King and Queen of Greece. If asked, she replies something like "As I see it, once a king, always a king". -- Valentinian 11:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Nevertheless we should call people by their names unless they have a current title. So this article calls him Constantine of Schleswig-Holstein-Etc-Etc, rather than Constantine II, King of the Hellenes, a title which the Greek people abolished in 1974. Adam 02:48, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
GK
Is upsilon normally transliterated with an "f"? Ardric47 19:31, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
In modern Greek the letter combination "eu" (epsilon-upsilon) is pronounced either "ev" or "ef" depending on what letter it preceeds. Hence we have the ancient "eucharist" but the modern Greek "efharisto" (thankyou). The same is true of "au", so Greeks say "Afstralia." Adam 02:48, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
"As an exiled monarch who had not abdicated, unlike Michael of Romania and Simeon of Bulgaria, Constantine is still formally referred to internationally as King of Greece though as a courtesy title, not a constitutional office. Constantine is frequently mocked in the left-wing Greek press, where he is frequently referred to as Mr. Glucksburg. This practice is meant to stress the notion that Constantine is not of ethnic Greek origin. Critics dismiss such attitudes as racist."
This paragraph is incorrect in several respects:
On the broader point, whether or not Constantine is called by his former title by various people is entirely irrelevant to what he should be called at Wikipedia. He holds no title and should be called by his name, which (in English) is Constantine of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg. I am happy to delete the references to what he is called in the Greek press, since I don't read the Greek press and can't vouch for the accuracy of these statements. Adam 09:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
In reply:
On your edits.
Adam 10:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC) Adam 10:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Rastapopoulos 12:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Adam 12:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Good for you, it just happens that your POV is not necessarily NPOV. Rastapopoulos 13:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The half paragraph you deleted was factual, non-POV and very relevant. Why remove it? Sysin 11:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Because I am trying to get a settled paragraph which contains agreed statements of fact. The line about his being able to return to Greece is an opinion. References to what he is called in Greek newspapers aren't "very relevant", and can't be verified. Adam 11:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Please also see Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece. If there exists a point for labelling Constantine as a former king, what is to be done about a self styled "Crown Prince of Greece"? Personally (as a staunch greek democrat) I can live with a former king referred to as "of Greece" in wikipedia. But a never-has-been, never-will-be "crown prince" is beyond my scope. The ongoing dispute here has much to offer to this article.. Michalis Famelis 12:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Efharisto poli for pointing that out. I have renamed the article Paul of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg and edited it to conform with the real world. Adam 12:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, thanks Adam! I can now point out that this also applies for the "royal children and grandchildren" of Constantine. They are mostly refered to as "prince/ess of Greece and Denmark". I don't know about the "of Denmark" part, but the "of Greece" is absurd for people born after the 1975 refenderum!! I dont have time now (I'm already late for class, am I a wikipediholic?) and I don't know what is to be done for those templates but the links are:
Also there is the template thing.
(evil sarcastic note: it seems that the more recent the child, the more names it is given.. Maybe they try to compensate with number of names for glamour?)
Michalis Famelis 12:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I am not going to spend all my time editing fantasy biographies of fantasy princes and princesses. Someone more fiercely republican than me can do it. Adam 12:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
We are now told that "Constantine has repeatedly stated that he recognized the republic and the laws and the constitution of Greece." Can we have a source or citation for this statement? If it is true, then he has in effect abdicated, since clearly he can't claim to be king of a country if he recognises it to be a republic. And if that is the case then obviously he can't be called by a title he no longer claims. If he insists he has no surname, then he will have to called plain "Constantine." Adam 12:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Rastapopoulos 13:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Very well. I am willing to accept Rastapopoulos's new text, with a few edits I have made. I was not aware that Constantine had recognised the Greek republic and thus in effect renounced his claim to be king, but of course that makes it all the clearer that the article cannot begin by describing him as "King of the Hellenes". One cannot claim to be king of a republic.
Two points on the current text:
It's getting late here in Afstralia, so am going to bed now. Kalinikhta to all and we will resume debate in the morning. Adam 13:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
As I said above, I am quite happy to have no reference to his ethnic origins, but if the matter is to be refered to it must be stated correctly. That the Greek royals are not ethnically Greek is a fact and not an allegation. That Papandreou is only a quarter Greek is also a fact, but then he is not claiming to be King of the Hellenes. Adam 22:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
My points are that:
Rastapopoulos 07:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Just wanted to note that, whatever you think of Constantine or his family, the fact remains that the only names by which they are known are "king Constantine," "Prince So and So of Greece and Denmark," and so forth. They are never called "So and so Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg," and to call them that is just completely fraudulent in the worst traditions of stupid wikipedia making up shit. Also, it is to be noted that Pavlos, being born in 1967, was, legally, the Crown Prince from 1967 until the abolition of the monarchy in 1973.
Basically, the generaly diplomatic practice for abolished monarchies is as follows: everyone gets to keep the highest title they have. thus, Constantine gets to be "King Constantine." His son gets to be the Crown Prince. The current head of the Karageorgevic house gets to be Crown Prince Alexander. King Umberto II of Italy got to be King Umberto, and so forth. If you never help a proper title under the monarchy itself, members of old royal families are generally referred to by the generic "Prince N of Country" title. Now, whether or not we approve of such practices, there is generally no other good way of referring to these people. Such titles are the most commonly used names, and whether we use them or not, we are essentially taking a POV. The worst thing we can do is to make up names for people that they themselves never use. And this has nothing to do with whether or not we recognize the validity of the Greek Republic. That's a total red herring. john k 06:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
It's also essentially the case that the born-post-1974 members of the former Greek royal family are known by their titles in the English-speaking world. C.f. this channel 4 program, or this wireimage image set, which consistently refers to members of the Greek royal family as "Prince N of Greece"... john k 17:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
100% correct. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 19:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
{{Infobox greekroyalty| royal name=Prince Philippos| dipstyle=His Royal Highness| offstyle=Your Royal Highness| altstyle=Sir}}
The templates might, perhaps, be removed. However, there is still no other place to put prince Philippos save at Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark. And, in fact, the fact that this is the term used in the English speaking world is significant, because Wikipedia's article naming policy is based on "most common usage." john k 16:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
royal name=Prince Philippos (in Denmark)| dipstyle=His Royal Highness| offstyle=Your Royal Highness| altstyle=Sir}}
The fact that Denmark officially recognizes them as princes and princesses does complicate matters a bit. As a possible solution I could propose, for instance about Phillipos, that the article be named Phillipos of Greece, Prince of Denmark. What do you think? It takes into account that he is most widely known as "of Greece" (or deGrecia if you like), and that he is recognized as a prince in Denmark. I cannot understand though why the title must be in the article name.
There are articles such as Alexandra Georgievna of Greece, Sophia of Prussia, Elena of Greece, Elisabeth of Romania, Frederika of Hanover, Alexandra of Greece. Are these examples of bad style or is there something else the matter? The aformentioned articles do not use the nobility title (which some of the above actually did hold) at their article title. Could this not be used as a guideline for naming articles on titular nobility? -- Michalis Famelis 23:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
You obviously aren't aware either of WP naming conventions or of standard biographical references to deceased consorts. Deceased consorts of monarchs are referred to in that form. Phillipos is not the deceased wife of a king so the above is irrelevant. Re Phillipos of Greece, Prince of Denmark, that is not an option. Under standard encyclopædic rules, as the son of the exiled King of Greece, Phillipos is referred to as Prince Phillipos of Greece or of Greece and Denmark. No other form is valid under standard biographical naming. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 00:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
You misunderstand. States don't grant monarchical titles. Monarchs do. But monarchs do so with state authority. It is a two-fold process. However titles like prince and princess are different. Each member of a royal family is not given the title prince or princess. They do so by being born the son or daughter of a prince (not princess, BTW, in most states.) General precedent in both republics and monarchies if that such hereditary titles are presumed to carry on even if a monarchy is abolished. New titles cannot be created (or if attempted have no legal standing) but existing hereditary ones are treated as continuing. When Chancellor Kohl met the pretender to the German throne, for example, he referred to him as Prince Louis Ferdinand and called him "Royal Highness" even though the German monarchy was abolished back in the time of Louis Ferdinand's grandfather. (I think from memory that Kaiser Wilhelm II was his grandfather.) Similarly the crown prince of the defunct throne of Italy, can be called Prince of Naples but he could never be called Prince of Piedmont because his father, Umberto II, never awarded him the title while on the throne and could not do so after the monarchy's abolition. So unless the Italian monarchy is recreated (unlikely, since the House of Savoy is regarded as an embarrassing bunch of egotistical misfits even by many Italian royalists) there never will be another Prince of Piedmont. But there will be generations of Italian princes, who are so because they are born to a prince who was born to a prince who was . . .
Similarly if the British monarchy was abolished tomorrow, there never would be another Prince of Wales, as Prince of Wales is a creation and could not be done by a non-reigning monarch. But there would be other Dukes of Cornwall because that is a hereditary title that continues and does not have to be recreated.
Phillipos is a prince because his father was a king. His children in turn will be a prince. However he will never be able to be given a title by his father because his father lost the legal ability to do that in 1973 when the monarchy was abolished. The issue is simply that the Greek government tried, contrary to international tradition, to say that all hereditary princely titles are abolished too. Legally governments can't do that as a princedom is a matter of inheritance, not creation, and carries with it no legal rights in the absence of a monarchy. The French government in the nineteenth century also tried to unilaterally abolish royal titles. The response of the worldwide community to them, and to the Greeks, was the same: "oi. You cannot do that. We all follow the same set of rules on this. No one state can try to change them." So while France in the 19th century and Greece in the late twentieth century went ballistic over it, the world still called the descendants of French royals and of Napoleon Prince and still calls the kids of the exiled Greek king Prince and Princess. Eventually France shup up about its attempt to abolish French titles and quietly accepted they did exist and could continue to exist.
All Wikipedia does is follow the same definitions as the rest of the world: prince is an inherited title held by the son of a prince. The Prince's children are called Princess. To ignore world usage and follow the usage of one government (followed for politically motived reasons) would be POV. To follow the same rules as everyone else is standard. We are not the puppets of individual governments but simply follow standard international usage here as on other things. Governments come and go. International law and conventions tends to be more steady and continuous and less motivated by current political opportunism or the agendas of individual politicians or governments. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
It is correct that (ex-)King Constantine travels using a Danish diplomatic passport. But the passport doesn't name him as "King Constantine of Greece". According to the Danish tabloids, he passport names him as "DeGrecia" in (mock) Italian. I believe that his first name is spelled in Italian too ("Constantine DeGrecia"). In Denmark, the government recognizes Greece as a republic but Anne-Marie is still popular among the older generation. Queen Margrethe publicly refers to the couple as the King and Queen of Greece. If asked, she replies something like "As I see it, once a king, always a king". -- Valentinian 11:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Nevertheless we should call people by their names unless they have a current title. So this article calls him Constantine of Schleswig-Holstein-Etc-Etc, rather than Constantine II, King of the Hellenes, a title which the Greek people abolished in 1974. Adam 02:48, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
GK
Is upsilon normally transliterated with an "f"? Ardric47 19:31, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
In modern Greek the letter combination "eu" (epsilon-upsilon) is pronounced either "ev" or "ef" depending on what letter it preceeds. Hence we have the ancient "eucharist" but the modern Greek "efharisto" (thankyou). The same is true of "au", so Greeks say "Afstralia." Adam 02:48, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
"As an exiled monarch who had not abdicated, unlike Michael of Romania and Simeon of Bulgaria, Constantine is still formally referred to internationally as King of Greece though as a courtesy title, not a constitutional office. Constantine is frequently mocked in the left-wing Greek press, where he is frequently referred to as Mr. Glucksburg. This practice is meant to stress the notion that Constantine is not of ethnic Greek origin. Critics dismiss such attitudes as racist."
This paragraph is incorrect in several respects:
On the broader point, whether or not Constantine is called by his former title by various people is entirely irrelevant to what he should be called at Wikipedia. He holds no title and should be called by his name, which (in English) is Constantine of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg. I am happy to delete the references to what he is called in the Greek press, since I don't read the Greek press and can't vouch for the accuracy of these statements. Adam 09:00, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
In reply:
On your edits.
Adam 10:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC) Adam 10:08, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Rastapopoulos 12:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Adam 12:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Good for you, it just happens that your POV is not necessarily NPOV. Rastapopoulos 13:05, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
The half paragraph you deleted was factual, non-POV and very relevant. Why remove it? Sysin 11:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Because I am trying to get a settled paragraph which contains agreed statements of fact. The line about his being able to return to Greece is an opinion. References to what he is called in Greek newspapers aren't "very relevant", and can't be verified. Adam 11:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Please also see Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece. If there exists a point for labelling Constantine as a former king, what is to be done about a self styled "Crown Prince of Greece"? Personally (as a staunch greek democrat) I can live with a former king referred to as "of Greece" in wikipedia. But a never-has-been, never-will-be "crown prince" is beyond my scope. The ongoing dispute here has much to offer to this article.. Michalis Famelis 12:30, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Efharisto poli for pointing that out. I have renamed the article Paul of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg and edited it to conform with the real world. Adam 12:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, thanks Adam! I can now point out that this also applies for the "royal children and grandchildren" of Constantine. They are mostly refered to as "prince/ess of Greece and Denmark". I don't know about the "of Denmark" part, but the "of Greece" is absurd for people born after the 1975 refenderum!! I dont have time now (I'm already late for class, am I a wikipediholic?) and I don't know what is to be done for those templates but the links are:
Also there is the template thing.
(evil sarcastic note: it seems that the more recent the child, the more names it is given.. Maybe they try to compensate with number of names for glamour?)
Michalis Famelis 12:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I am not going to spend all my time editing fantasy biographies of fantasy princes and princesses. Someone more fiercely republican than me can do it. Adam 12:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
We are now told that "Constantine has repeatedly stated that he recognized the republic and the laws and the constitution of Greece." Can we have a source or citation for this statement? If it is true, then he has in effect abdicated, since clearly he can't claim to be king of a country if he recognises it to be a republic. And if that is the case then obviously he can't be called by a title he no longer claims. If he insists he has no surname, then he will have to called plain "Constantine." Adam 12:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Rastapopoulos 13:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Very well. I am willing to accept Rastapopoulos's new text, with a few edits I have made. I was not aware that Constantine had recognised the Greek republic and thus in effect renounced his claim to be king, but of course that makes it all the clearer that the article cannot begin by describing him as "King of the Hellenes". One cannot claim to be king of a republic.
Two points on the current text:
It's getting late here in Afstralia, so am going to bed now. Kalinikhta to all and we will resume debate in the morning. Adam 13:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
As I said above, I am quite happy to have no reference to his ethnic origins, but if the matter is to be refered to it must be stated correctly. That the Greek royals are not ethnically Greek is a fact and not an allegation. That Papandreou is only a quarter Greek is also a fact, but then he is not claiming to be King of the Hellenes. Adam 22:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
My points are that:
Rastapopoulos 07:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Just wanted to note that, whatever you think of Constantine or his family, the fact remains that the only names by which they are known are "king Constantine," "Prince So and So of Greece and Denmark," and so forth. They are never called "So and so Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg," and to call them that is just completely fraudulent in the worst traditions of stupid wikipedia making up shit. Also, it is to be noted that Pavlos, being born in 1967, was, legally, the Crown Prince from 1967 until the abolition of the monarchy in 1973.
Basically, the generaly diplomatic practice for abolished monarchies is as follows: everyone gets to keep the highest title they have. thus, Constantine gets to be "King Constantine." His son gets to be the Crown Prince. The current head of the Karageorgevic house gets to be Crown Prince Alexander. King Umberto II of Italy got to be King Umberto, and so forth. If you never help a proper title under the monarchy itself, members of old royal families are generally referred to by the generic "Prince N of Country" title. Now, whether or not we approve of such practices, there is generally no other good way of referring to these people. Such titles are the most commonly used names, and whether we use them or not, we are essentially taking a POV. The worst thing we can do is to make up names for people that they themselves never use. And this has nothing to do with whether or not we recognize the validity of the Greek Republic. That's a total red herring. john k 06:03, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
It's also essentially the case that the born-post-1974 members of the former Greek royal family are known by their titles in the English-speaking world. C.f. this channel 4 program, or this wireimage image set, which consistently refers to members of the Greek royal family as "Prince N of Greece"... john k 17:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
100% correct. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 19:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
{{Infobox greekroyalty| royal name=Prince Philippos| dipstyle=His Royal Highness| offstyle=Your Royal Highness| altstyle=Sir}}
The templates might, perhaps, be removed. However, there is still no other place to put prince Philippos save at Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark. And, in fact, the fact that this is the term used in the English speaking world is significant, because Wikipedia's article naming policy is based on "most common usage." john k 16:51, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
royal name=Prince Philippos (in Denmark)| dipstyle=His Royal Highness| offstyle=Your Royal Highness| altstyle=Sir}}
The fact that Denmark officially recognizes them as princes and princesses does complicate matters a bit. As a possible solution I could propose, for instance about Phillipos, that the article be named Phillipos of Greece, Prince of Denmark. What do you think? It takes into account that he is most widely known as "of Greece" (or deGrecia if you like), and that he is recognized as a prince in Denmark. I cannot understand though why the title must be in the article name.
There are articles such as Alexandra Georgievna of Greece, Sophia of Prussia, Elena of Greece, Elisabeth of Romania, Frederika of Hanover, Alexandra of Greece. Are these examples of bad style or is there something else the matter? The aformentioned articles do not use the nobility title (which some of the above actually did hold) at their article title. Could this not be used as a guideline for naming articles on titular nobility? -- Michalis Famelis 23:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
You obviously aren't aware either of WP naming conventions or of standard biographical references to deceased consorts. Deceased consorts of monarchs are referred to in that form. Phillipos is not the deceased wife of a king so the above is irrelevant. Re Phillipos of Greece, Prince of Denmark, that is not an option. Under standard encyclopædic rules, as the son of the exiled King of Greece, Phillipos is referred to as Prince Phillipos of Greece or of Greece and Denmark. No other form is valid under standard biographical naming. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 00:13, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
You misunderstand. States don't grant monarchical titles. Monarchs do. But monarchs do so with state authority. It is a two-fold process. However titles like prince and princess are different. Each member of a royal family is not given the title prince or princess. They do so by being born the son or daughter of a prince (not princess, BTW, in most states.) General precedent in both republics and monarchies if that such hereditary titles are presumed to carry on even if a monarchy is abolished. New titles cannot be created (or if attempted have no legal standing) but existing hereditary ones are treated as continuing. When Chancellor Kohl met the pretender to the German throne, for example, he referred to him as Prince Louis Ferdinand and called him "Royal Highness" even though the German monarchy was abolished back in the time of Louis Ferdinand's grandfather. (I think from memory that Kaiser Wilhelm II was his grandfather.) Similarly the crown prince of the defunct throne of Italy, can be called Prince of Naples but he could never be called Prince of Piedmont because his father, Umberto II, never awarded him the title while on the throne and could not do so after the monarchy's abolition. So unless the Italian monarchy is recreated (unlikely, since the House of Savoy is regarded as an embarrassing bunch of egotistical misfits even by many Italian royalists) there never will be another Prince of Piedmont. But there will be generations of Italian princes, who are so because they are born to a prince who was born to a prince who was . . .
Similarly if the British monarchy was abolished tomorrow, there never would be another Prince of Wales, as Prince of Wales is a creation and could not be done by a non-reigning monarch. But there would be other Dukes of Cornwall because that is a hereditary title that continues and does not have to be recreated.
Phillipos is a prince because his father was a king. His children in turn will be a prince. However he will never be able to be given a title by his father because his father lost the legal ability to do that in 1973 when the monarchy was abolished. The issue is simply that the Greek government tried, contrary to international tradition, to say that all hereditary princely titles are abolished too. Legally governments can't do that as a princedom is a matter of inheritance, not creation, and carries with it no legal rights in the absence of a monarchy. The French government in the nineteenth century also tried to unilaterally abolish royal titles. The response of the worldwide community to them, and to the Greeks, was the same: "oi. You cannot do that. We all follow the same set of rules on this. No one state can try to change them." So while France in the 19th century and Greece in the late twentieth century went ballistic over it, the world still called the descendants of French royals and of Napoleon Prince and still calls the kids of the exiled Greek king Prince and Princess. Eventually France shup up about its attempt to abolish French titles and quietly accepted they did exist and could continue to exist.
All Wikipedia does is follow the same definitions as the rest of the world: prince is an inherited title held by the son of a prince. The Prince's children are called Princess. To ignore world usage and follow the usage of one government (followed for politically motived reasons) would be POV. To follow the same rules as everyone else is standard. We are not the puppets of individual governments but simply follow standard international usage here as on other things. Governments come and go. International law and conventions tends to be more steady and continuous and less motivated by current political opportunism or the agendas of individual politicians or governments. FearÉIREANN \ (caint) 23:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)