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Archive 1 |
I've inserted a "citation needed" tag for the Religion in the infobox. The reason is that the Serbocroatian and the Croatian versions of this article give his religion as Catholic, and the English article suggests that he was a Catholic; the wording used is: "Constantine Bodin's relations with the west included his support for Pope Urban II in 1089, which secured him a major concession, the upgrading of his Bishop of Bar to the rank of an Archbishop." This suggests that Constantine Bodin took the side of the Roman Church after the 1054 Great Schism between the Roman and the Eastern Churches. Please update the Religion tag if you have reliable sources, and also ensure that the Serbocroatian and the Croatian versions of this article are consistent in this regard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.0.15.171 ( talk) 03:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
What makes Bodin Serbian??? Sideshow Bob 02:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
lazi kolko oces ali on je bio Kralj Duklje a ne Srbije koja tad nije postojala. Voislavljevici su dinastija Dukljanskih Slovena/Crnogoraca. Ko to osim vasih kvaziistoricara kaze da je bio poznat kao Ahront Srba —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.114.110 ( talk) 17:35, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- Basically what "213.149.114.110" said to PaxEquilibrium is "Lie as long as you want, but Bodin was king of Doclea, and not of Serbia which didn't exist at the time. Voislavljevics are Doclean Slavic/Montenegrin dynasty. Who, beside your quasi-historians says that he was known as archont of Sebs?" I totaly agree with "213.149.114.110". What PaxEquilibrium said is complete Serbian nationalistic rubish. We have problems dealing with these lies, cause we are outnumbered 15 million to 800000 by the Serbs. Therefore we cannot catch up with all the nonsence they write on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.222.12.145 ( talk) 23:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Why are you playing stupid? I didn't say all the Serbs are editing wikipedia. It's clear that proportionally to the number of Serbs and Montenegrins there is a lot greater number of Serbs editing wikipedia. 95.155.12.136 ( talk) 18:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree, we need to see reference for being "Serbian" noble! Rave92( talk) 20:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree, we need consensus on such a things. Rave92( talk) 10:58, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Not sure how it is reliable? Also, he was king of Duklja :). Rave92( talk) 18:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Well there is little known from that period, and everyone know there weren't nationalistic moves and those until 19/20th century, so probably he didn't even cared. Rave92( talk) 19:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
That's actually a good idea, this way it's more neutral, so neither Serbian or Montenegrin. Rave92( talk) 09:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Ok, guys, enough is enough. Instead of edit-warring to get the Montenegrin in or out of the article, why don't you discuss it? I'm not sure if it should be there, but it'd work much better if you were to give motives for your actions etc. Otherwise you might as well be subjects to administrative measures. -- Laveol T 20:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
He was a ruler of Duklja, Duklja is todays Montenegro, Montenegro has all rights over him as well as Serbia let's say. None one deletes Serbian Cyrillic, but Montenegrin does. If someone things Montenegrin isn't a language he should keep it to him, it's not his to decide about those things. 92.36.185.92 ( talk) 21:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Duklja/Zeta is NOT today's Montenegro, Duklja/Zeta was much bigger (Duklja/Zeta = today's Montenegro+ Rascia+northern Albania+ southeast Bosnia+south Dalmatia), besides: 1. all those lands is (or was at that time) inhabited predominantly by Serbs (term "Montenegro" will be first time mentioned 5 centuries after death of king Bodin) 2. at least 99% of historic sources,publications,etc...refered to king Bodin/Duklja/Zeta as Serb/Serbian lands/principalities/kingdoms etc... 3. to claim that kingdom of Duklja/Zeta was not Serbian is lake claiming that principality of Wallachia is not Romanian or kingdom of Aragon is not spanish or Venetian Republic is not italian etc... don't steal others history in attempt to confirm existance of false nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.14.65 ( talk) 05:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
It's not on you to deside if Montenegrin nation is false or not. Bring those historic sources up if you have them. In "De Administrando Imperio" by Byzantine emperor Constantine VII there are no records that claim Docleans are Serbs. It says that Doclea is settled by Slavic tribes, but says nothing of their origin. The Pope refers to King Mihailo as King of the Slavs. Nićifor Virenij, Byzantine dux of the Dyrrhachium theme, says that Croats and Docleans abused the entire Illyricum, after rebbeling, so he considers Docleans as equal as Croats (if you want to claim that Croats are Serbs too, move on on the "Croats" page). Duklja/Zeta certainly is Montenegro. First of all, it's true that Doclea had a lot larger territory than Montenegro but only under the governance of King Mihailo and King Bodin. Under other rulers it occupied today's central and southern Montenegro and northern Albania. People moved from the plains in the northern Albania to the mountains so they could resist the Turks more easily. Serbian Empire was a lot larger than today's Serbia but Sebia still considers itself to be an heir of the Sebian Empire. Second, we, Montenegrins are direct decendants of the Docleans whlist you cannot say that today's Serbs are pure decendants of the medieval Serbs after being 500 years under Ottoman oppression. Third, although the name has changed during the 12th century country still had the same borders and was ruled by Voislavljevićs untill it was conquered by Stefan Nemanja. Nemanja's brother Vukan, who governed Zeta, took the title "king of Duklja". "In one inscription from 1202-1203 Vukan is titled as Grand Župan Vl'k ruler of all Serbian land, Zeta, maritime towns and land of Nišava." This is from the article about Vukan Nemanjic which nobody had edited but the Serbs. If Zeta is a Serbian land, why should you mention it seperately if you already said he was a ruler of all Serbian lands? Zeta had kept almost the same borders as a province in the Serbian Empire, that Duklja had. After it got independent under the Balšićs it was still named Zeta. They, during their 65 years rule, lost parts of their territory. Crnojevics succeded them. They considered themselves lords of Zeta and it was under their rule that Zeta started being refered as Montenegro. Montenegro fell to the Ottomans in 1499. Fighting ever since for independence. Had it more or less during the 17th and 18th century. Got it de facto at the ending of 18th century and de jure in 1878. Montenegro is Duklja. Duklja is Montenegro, just as you, Serbs, call and consider Rascia as Serbia, although it wasn't called like that at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.222.12.145 ( talk) 22:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
And so called Kingdom of Serbia presented on the picture is a a complete lie. There is not even one source that supports this claim exept the imagination of Serbian nationalists. It was Kingdom of Doclea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.222.12.145 ( talk) 22:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
And Serbian has historical reference? Do you know in what year did Constantine lived? You think he wrote in Serbian? Please, if there is going to be Serbian, there must be Montenegrin, as this is part of MONTENEGRIN history, not vice versa. Buttons fascist claims that language was "invented" in 2007 and it looks we communicated with rocks since you say we invented it few years ago. Rave92( talk) 13:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The point is, Montenegrin is standardized, official language, when American English isn't. It isn't a dialect. Rave92( talk) 14:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Please quote me where BBC says it's a dialect? And that is news article, not a documentary. Montenegrin "LANGUAGE", language means something, doesn't it?
Rave92(
talk)
19:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Beyond the pronunciation differences, Montenegrin purists say there are also some words that are specific to their language, although it takes Ms Susanj a few minutes to find a commonly-used example."In Serbian, they say 'dinja' for melon, but in Montenegrin, that actually means 'watermelon'," she says.
It wouldn't take a few minutes for anyone, let alone a language expert, to find an example in common use for US, Australian or Indian English compared to British English. For example sidewalk in US English compared to pavement in UK English, crore for 10 million in Indian English and g'day as a greeting in Australian English. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
But it's not up to you to say what is language or dialect. It is the same for Croatian and Bosnian, but none seem to have problem with it. Like I said, please quote it where BBC states that Montenegrin is dialect. Montenegrin and Serbian is not the same like English. English immigrated to countries which you mention, ex colonies etc... this is not the case. Serbs don't have monopoly over the language which was/is spoken here. Rave92( talk) 20:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Is Constitution of Montenegro enough reliable? Rave92( talk) 12:59, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
In constitution, Montenegrin is official, while Albanian, Croatian etc... are minority languages. Rave92( talk) 13:48, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Done. Rave92( talk) 14:29, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
First Serbian dynasty- House of Vlastimirović → House of Vojislavljević
Hard to understand? Let me clarify: →(Vlastimirovici) Petar Gojniković → Hvalimir Petrović → Dragimir Hvalimirović →(Vojislavljevici) Vojislav of Duklja → Mihailo I of Duklja → Constantine Bodin.
I have made this easy visual to make the reverting retards understand that this continuity does not result in the house becoming something else than Serbian nor making Constantine Bodin "Jupiterian". Please stop!
- Ajdebre (REPLY) 16:35
Nice compromise :). -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:47, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I take articles from Montenegrina and put it to wikipedia. This is internationaly recognised cite (ISSN 1800 - 8046). Here are articles in English langugages:
http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pages_e/home.htm
Here is history of Duklja: http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pages_e/history/duklja_the_first_montenegrin_state_first_dinasty_Vojislavljevic.htm
Thanks for recpect, -- 84.255.193.151 ( talk) 19:12, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Zoupan, please, stop this biased action. Macedonian nobility existed, but that was the Byzantine Emperor Basil the Macedonian from the Theme of Macedonia. The nobility from Kutmichevitsa was a Bulgarian. Stop the nonsense. 78.159.147.70 ( talk) 13:27, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Slavic landholder in Skopje named George Vojteh revolted against Byzantium
as leader of the Balkan Slavs against the Greeks
Nycephoris Bryenius writes about the "Slavic people" who, in 1072, led by Constantin Bodin and Georgi Voyteh
Do not ref-bomb the introduction. To call the revolt simply "Bulgarian" is false, because it involved not only Bulgarian magnates, but Slavs overall; "Bulgarian and Slavic nobility" is therefore more appropriate to describe the leaders. Note that Bodin and Petrilo, who led their own armies and major operations, cannot be regarded and described as Bulgarian.-- Zoupan 17:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
There was never any use of the term "Macedonians" or "Macedonian Slavs" in the article. I have altered the text accordingly.-- Zoupan 19:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I've inserted a "citation needed" tag for the Religion in the infobox. The reason is that the Serbocroatian and the Croatian versions of this article give his religion as Catholic, and the English article suggests that he was a Catholic; the wording used is: "Constantine Bodin's relations with the west included his support for Pope Urban II in 1089, which secured him a major concession, the upgrading of his Bishop of Bar to the rank of an Archbishop." This suggests that Constantine Bodin took the side of the Roman Church after the 1054 Great Schism between the Roman and the Eastern Churches. Please update the Religion tag if you have reliable sources, and also ensure that the Serbocroatian and the Croatian versions of this article are consistent in this regard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.0.15.171 ( talk) 03:48, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
What makes Bodin Serbian??? Sideshow Bob 02:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
lazi kolko oces ali on je bio Kralj Duklje a ne Srbije koja tad nije postojala. Voislavljevici su dinastija Dukljanskih Slovena/Crnogoraca. Ko to osim vasih kvaziistoricara kaze da je bio poznat kao Ahront Srba —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.114.110 ( talk) 17:35, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- Basically what "213.149.114.110" said to PaxEquilibrium is "Lie as long as you want, but Bodin was king of Doclea, and not of Serbia which didn't exist at the time. Voislavljevics are Doclean Slavic/Montenegrin dynasty. Who, beside your quasi-historians says that he was known as archont of Sebs?" I totaly agree with "213.149.114.110". What PaxEquilibrium said is complete Serbian nationalistic rubish. We have problems dealing with these lies, cause we are outnumbered 15 million to 800000 by the Serbs. Therefore we cannot catch up with all the nonsence they write on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.222.12.145 ( talk) 23:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Why are you playing stupid? I didn't say all the Serbs are editing wikipedia. It's clear that proportionally to the number of Serbs and Montenegrins there is a lot greater number of Serbs editing wikipedia. 95.155.12.136 ( talk) 18:24, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree, we need to see reference for being "Serbian" noble! Rave92( talk) 20:17, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree, we need consensus on such a things. Rave92( talk) 10:58, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Not sure how it is reliable? Also, he was king of Duklja :). Rave92( talk) 18:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Well there is little known from that period, and everyone know there weren't nationalistic moves and those until 19/20th century, so probably he didn't even cared. Rave92( talk) 19:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
That's actually a good idea, this way it's more neutral, so neither Serbian or Montenegrin. Rave92( talk) 09:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
Ok, guys, enough is enough. Instead of edit-warring to get the Montenegrin in or out of the article, why don't you discuss it? I'm not sure if it should be there, but it'd work much better if you were to give motives for your actions etc. Otherwise you might as well be subjects to administrative measures. -- Laveol T 20:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
He was a ruler of Duklja, Duklja is todays Montenegro, Montenegro has all rights over him as well as Serbia let's say. None one deletes Serbian Cyrillic, but Montenegrin does. If someone things Montenegrin isn't a language he should keep it to him, it's not his to decide about those things. 92.36.185.92 ( talk) 21:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Duklja/Zeta is NOT today's Montenegro, Duklja/Zeta was much bigger (Duklja/Zeta = today's Montenegro+ Rascia+northern Albania+ southeast Bosnia+south Dalmatia), besides: 1. all those lands is (or was at that time) inhabited predominantly by Serbs (term "Montenegro" will be first time mentioned 5 centuries after death of king Bodin) 2. at least 99% of historic sources,publications,etc...refered to king Bodin/Duklja/Zeta as Serb/Serbian lands/principalities/kingdoms etc... 3. to claim that kingdom of Duklja/Zeta was not Serbian is lake claiming that principality of Wallachia is not Romanian or kingdom of Aragon is not spanish or Venetian Republic is not italian etc... don't steal others history in attempt to confirm existance of false nations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.69.14.65 ( talk) 05:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
It's not on you to deside if Montenegrin nation is false or not. Bring those historic sources up if you have them. In "De Administrando Imperio" by Byzantine emperor Constantine VII there are no records that claim Docleans are Serbs. It says that Doclea is settled by Slavic tribes, but says nothing of their origin. The Pope refers to King Mihailo as King of the Slavs. Nićifor Virenij, Byzantine dux of the Dyrrhachium theme, says that Croats and Docleans abused the entire Illyricum, after rebbeling, so he considers Docleans as equal as Croats (if you want to claim that Croats are Serbs too, move on on the "Croats" page). Duklja/Zeta certainly is Montenegro. First of all, it's true that Doclea had a lot larger territory than Montenegro but only under the governance of King Mihailo and King Bodin. Under other rulers it occupied today's central and southern Montenegro and northern Albania. People moved from the plains in the northern Albania to the mountains so they could resist the Turks more easily. Serbian Empire was a lot larger than today's Serbia but Sebia still considers itself to be an heir of the Sebian Empire. Second, we, Montenegrins are direct decendants of the Docleans whlist you cannot say that today's Serbs are pure decendants of the medieval Serbs after being 500 years under Ottoman oppression. Third, although the name has changed during the 12th century country still had the same borders and was ruled by Voislavljevićs untill it was conquered by Stefan Nemanja. Nemanja's brother Vukan, who governed Zeta, took the title "king of Duklja". "In one inscription from 1202-1203 Vukan is titled as Grand Župan Vl'k ruler of all Serbian land, Zeta, maritime towns and land of Nišava." This is from the article about Vukan Nemanjic which nobody had edited but the Serbs. If Zeta is a Serbian land, why should you mention it seperately if you already said he was a ruler of all Serbian lands? Zeta had kept almost the same borders as a province in the Serbian Empire, that Duklja had. After it got independent under the Balšićs it was still named Zeta. They, during their 65 years rule, lost parts of their territory. Crnojevics succeded them. They considered themselves lords of Zeta and it was under their rule that Zeta started being refered as Montenegro. Montenegro fell to the Ottomans in 1499. Fighting ever since for independence. Had it more or less during the 17th and 18th century. Got it de facto at the ending of 18th century and de jure in 1878. Montenegro is Duklja. Duklja is Montenegro, just as you, Serbs, call and consider Rascia as Serbia, although it wasn't called like that at the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.222.12.145 ( talk) 22:37, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
And so called Kingdom of Serbia presented on the picture is a a complete lie. There is not even one source that supports this claim exept the imagination of Serbian nationalists. It was Kingdom of Doclea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.222.12.145 ( talk) 22:48, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
And Serbian has historical reference? Do you know in what year did Constantine lived? You think he wrote in Serbian? Please, if there is going to be Serbian, there must be Montenegrin, as this is part of MONTENEGRIN history, not vice versa. Buttons fascist claims that language was "invented" in 2007 and it looks we communicated with rocks since you say we invented it few years ago. Rave92( talk) 13:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
The point is, Montenegrin is standardized, official language, when American English isn't. It isn't a dialect. Rave92( talk) 14:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Please quote me where BBC says it's a dialect? And that is news article, not a documentary. Montenegrin "LANGUAGE", language means something, doesn't it?
Rave92(
talk)
19:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Beyond the pronunciation differences, Montenegrin purists say there are also some words that are specific to their language, although it takes Ms Susanj a few minutes to find a commonly-used example."In Serbian, they say 'dinja' for melon, but in Montenegrin, that actually means 'watermelon'," she says.
It wouldn't take a few minutes for anyone, let alone a language expert, to find an example in common use for US, Australian or Indian English compared to British English. For example sidewalk in US English compared to pavement in UK English, crore for 10 million in Indian English and g'day as a greeting in Australian English. -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 19:48, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
But it's not up to you to say what is language or dialect. It is the same for Croatian and Bosnian, but none seem to have problem with it. Like I said, please quote it where BBC states that Montenegrin is dialect. Montenegrin and Serbian is not the same like English. English immigrated to countries which you mention, ex colonies etc... this is not the case. Serbs don't have monopoly over the language which was/is spoken here. Rave92( talk) 20:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Is Constitution of Montenegro enough reliable? Rave92( talk) 12:59, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
In constitution, Montenegrin is official, while Albanian, Croatian etc... are minority languages. Rave92( talk) 13:48, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Done. Rave92( talk) 14:29, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
First Serbian dynasty- House of Vlastimirović → House of Vojislavljević
Hard to understand? Let me clarify: →(Vlastimirovici) Petar Gojniković → Hvalimir Petrović → Dragimir Hvalimirović →(Vojislavljevici) Vojislav of Duklja → Mihailo I of Duklja → Constantine Bodin.
I have made this easy visual to make the reverting retards understand that this continuity does not result in the house becoming something else than Serbian nor making Constantine Bodin "Jupiterian". Please stop!
- Ajdebre (REPLY) 16:35
Nice compromise :). -- Eraserhead1 < talk> 22:47, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
I take articles from Montenegrina and put it to wikipedia. This is internationaly recognised cite (ISSN 1800 - 8046). Here are articles in English langugages:
http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pages_e/home.htm
Here is history of Duklja: http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pages_e/history/duklja_the_first_montenegrin_state_first_dinasty_Vojislavljevic.htm
Thanks for recpect, -- 84.255.193.151 ( talk) 19:12, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Zoupan, please, stop this biased action. Macedonian nobility existed, but that was the Byzantine Emperor Basil the Macedonian from the Theme of Macedonia. The nobility from Kutmichevitsa was a Bulgarian. Stop the nonsense. 78.159.147.70 ( talk) 13:27, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Slavic landholder in Skopje named George Vojteh revolted against Byzantium
as leader of the Balkan Slavs against the Greeks
Nycephoris Bryenius writes about the "Slavic people" who, in 1072, led by Constantin Bodin and Georgi Voyteh
Do not ref-bomb the introduction. To call the revolt simply "Bulgarian" is false, because it involved not only Bulgarian magnates, but Slavs overall; "Bulgarian and Slavic nobility" is therefore more appropriate to describe the leaders. Note that Bodin and Petrilo, who led their own armies and major operations, cannot be regarded and described as Bulgarian.-- Zoupan 17:55, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
There was never any use of the term "Macedonians" or "Macedonian Slavs" in the article. I have altered the text accordingly.-- Zoupan 19:48, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:33, 12 August 2017 (UTC)