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![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 28, 2010, December 28, 2011, December 28, 2018, December 28, 2021, and December 28, 2023. |
Why is the Scouting portal on this page? The article should at least mention the connection. Rlevse 18:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)...Apparently connnected to Fianna Éireann, but that is not considered Scouting, so I removed it. Rlevse 18:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Fianna Éireann while not part of the international scouting movement was a nationalist movement inspired by scouting in the same way that the Hitler Youth was a facist movement inspired by scouting. So there is a connection and it should be reflected some way in the scouting articles. -- Gramscis cousin 08:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that the Countess was in the IRB (not sure they admitted women at all) definitely in the period when the IRB was most active around her time her allegiance was with the Citizen's Army. Please source if I'm wrong on this. -- Gramscis cousin 08:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
What is the correct spelling of her name? Is it MarkieWicz or MarkieVicz? A google search for Countess Markievicz returns 18,000 whereas a search for Countess Markiewicz returns 779. On oireachtas members database her name is given as "Countess Constance Georgina de Markievicz". In the current article both versions are used. Snappy56 17:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Is it true that on her way to the 1916 Easter Rising she shot an unarmed Dublin policeman? If so, did she ever explain why she did this?-- User:RFMJR (talk) 00:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe Constance Markiewicz was ever known or addressed as Constance Georgine, Countess Markiewicz. Certainly I have never seen it in the literature. Countess Markiewicz, yes, but not the whole thing. The article has been named according to the naming convention for UK countesses, but Markiewicz was married to a Polish count, and never lived in Poland, so the convention does not apply. Interestingly, the Polish Wikipedia article is titled "Constance Markiewicz", as are the German, Spanish, French and Norwegian articles (the Irish article is titled "Constance Gore-Booth Markiewicz"). Any objections if I move this to Constance Markiewicz? Scolaire ( talk) 11:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I have been bold and moved it. I will revert if anybody objects later. Scolaire ( talk) 12:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
She was not a UK countess therefore was not known as or called Constance Georgine, Countess Markiewicz but Countess Markiewicz. Check the Polish wikipedia. It is very relevant. Snappy56 ( talk) 16:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The suggestion that Constance Markievicz stood as a candidate in the 1908 Manchester by-election against Winston Churchill is extremely puzzling and seems incorrect since women at that date were only permitted to stand in local (municipal) elections and for roles such as Poor Law Guardians. They would not be legally entitled to stand for Parliament until 1918. Contemporary sources such as the Manchester Guardian reference Countess Markiwiecz being active, together with other women suffragists, including her sister Eva Gore-Booth in opposing Winston Churchill's candidature since the Liberal Government's policy at the time was opposed to women's suffrage. Constance Markievicz made headlines by driving a coach and four white horses through the streets at election time [Anne Marecco, The Rebel Countess, Weidenfield and Nicholson 1967; the Manchester Guardian 1908] but her actions seem directed at defeating Chruchill not at promoting any specific alternative candidate. Legionseagle ( talk) 07:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Is it true that newly released documents show that she actually begged for her life before the tribunal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.127.126.110 ( talk) 09:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Ruth Dudley Edwards, in her 2006 lecture on Countess Markievicz, says this is true. The recording is here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filceolaire ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Constance Markiewicz →
Constance Markievicz – "Constance markievicz" returns 45400 results on google, "constance markiewicz" returns 32500 results. While I have no doubt that her husband was born adn was known by Markiewicz, Constance herself was known generally by Markievicz, as can be seen in the names of places named after her (see prior discussion of her name a few sections up).
79.97.144.17 (
talk) 03:23, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
*Doubtful: If they were married, they should reasonably have the same name with the same spelling, shouldn't they? And the difference is not overwhelming.
HandsomeFella (
talk) 08:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC) (see below)
*Oppose: Needs more than a Google search.--
Domer48
'fenian' 09:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone post any references to the Polish song that was supposedly adopted by her as an ICA anthem with changed lyrics? Which song was that? Is there any recording of her version? Silmethule ( talk) 00:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
I've removed the claim made by William Wylie from the article. Its based on one (rather biased) individual's recollection of the trial and hasn't been supported by the court transcripts. If anyone disagrees, feel free to comment. CivisHibernius ( talk) 19:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
On what basis does it say that she is the 'gazelle' in Yeats' poem 'In Memory of Eva Gore-Booth and Con Markiewicz'?
In her political career she was generally referred to as "Madame Markievicz" or "Madame de Markievicz". In the 1919–22 Dáil transcripts, she is "Countess Markievicz" and "Madame Markieivicz" variously, with the latter predominating by 1922. I would have thought that, as a republican, she repudiated the noble title "Countess". Is there evidence that she explicitly addressed the question at all? The fact that it was a Polish rather than a British title might make the incongruity less pointed, but OTOH Poland was a republic after 1918. Admittedly Count Plunkett's title was also incongruous, but the Papal nobility would have been a special case for Catholic republicans of the era. According to Kathleen Behan, the upperclass ladies in Inghinidhe na hÉireann all used "Madame" in preference to "Mrs" or "Bean", which suggests but does not prove that "Lady", "Countess", etc. were inconceivable. "Madame" tout court was an affectionate nickname for Markievicz; was it sometimes pronounced "Madam"? Dev's eulogy: "Madame Markievicz is gone from us. Madame the friend of the toiler, the lover of the poor." jnestorius( talk) 13:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
She was definitely a real fake Countess, which tells us how gullible our ancestors were, and also how most Irish historians copy the last book without double checking their facts. 78.17.57.86 ( talk) 20:11, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Whether through the concerted efforts of a few individuals or just an accident of editing by committee, this article has completely lost all objectivity. Every glorifying myth and propaganda anecdote concerning Mrs Markiewicz seems to have been taken as Gospel. Every pithy quote "attributed" to her is trotted out uncritically. Her right to the style of Countess is blithely defended without any mention of the controversy surrounding her husband's claim to the title of Count. And at the same time, her well-documented murder of an unarmed policeman is erased from the record, in favour of the unsupported claim that she wounded a "British sniper". This is not a factual article, it's a political hagiography, and the sort of thing that brings Wikipedia into disrepute. I would make edits, but to be honest the whole piece is so far gone that the best thing would be to delete it and start over again. Joe kearns ( talk) 23:34, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Scolaire I am the IP-78 guy you mention above and nothing to do with Joe Kearns. Lots of people know about the "title" and its non-validity can be checked with e.g. John Gilmartin the Dublin art historian who knows lots more about Casimir D-M. Its survival up to now just shows how bad a lot of Irish historians are, copying pub gossip that is then it is quoted in another book and becomes verified quotable history. 78.17.51.81 ( talk) 19:56, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
The current wording, relying on Fianna material from 1965, implies that Markiewicz was the sole founder of Fianna Éireann, whereas it is generally accepted that she was the co-founder, with Bulmer Hobson - the original, northern Fianna having been founded in 1902 by Hobson. I think, particularly in view of the circumstances pertaining in 1965, this reference has to be regarded as suspect. Hobson had, after all, opposed the Rising and was thereafter marginalized and ostracized by militant Republicanism. Should we not entertain the possibility that, in a time of increasing militarization and escalating sectarian tensions, McNulty and O'Shea wanted to write him out of the Fianna's history, in favour of Markiewicz? Joe kearns ( talk) 21:49, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Looking at the cited material from Neil Richardson, Ann Matthews and Lauren Arrington it seems to be pretty well established that Markievicz was at St Stephen's Green and did shoot Constable Lahiff. Richardson's version of events contains significant details not present in the Geraldine Fitzgerald account referenced by Matthews and Arrington, so evidently more than one witness placed her there. In view of this, I want to question the validity of conflicting claims that she was elsewhere. It isn't clear from the way the references are all positioned together, but I'm assuming that the source of this was Anne Haverty. I haven't seen her book yet and I won't presume to pass judgement on it until I have, but I think it has to be treated with some scepticism under the circumstances, and I would like your view, Scolaire, as someone who clearly has read it. On the one hand, Richardson and Arrington are professional historians with reputations to uphold, and Matthews - while perhaps not a historian by training - has clearly taken the trouble to do actual research. My question is: is Haverty's work strong enough to stand up against these as a serious and credible alternative voice? From what I can gather, her Markievicz biography was an on-commission job for a publisher with an overtly feminist and socialist agenda, which would at least cast some doubt on its impartiality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe kearns ( talk • contribs) 12:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
I have reverted the changes by @ Poissonette:. One significant problem is the attempt to move the location of Lahiff to Dublin Castle, the problem being that it was a completely different constable shot by somebody else entirely at Dublin Castle. FDW777 ( talk) 08:41, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
I have tagged as dubious the claim that she was sent to prison for her Republican views. Even during the Civil War, that seems most unlikely. So I have tagged it as dubious because it is significant enough to justify something more that an ordinary citation needed. -- Red King ( talk) 17:33, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi all,
I really want your opinion about this addition:
A very important figure in Dublin during the Easter Rising where she led the troops with Michael Mallin. She was the only one not to be executed by the British simply because she was a woman. The official document commemorating all the soldiers executed by the British during the Easter Rising is currently at The Little Museum of Dublin [1].
Thanks a million, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Léa Di Francesco ( talk • contribs) 13:12, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
References
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 28, 2010, December 28, 2011, December 28, 2018, December 28, 2021, and December 28, 2023. |
Why is the Scouting portal on this page? The article should at least mention the connection. Rlevse 18:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)...Apparently connnected to Fianna Éireann, but that is not considered Scouting, so I removed it. Rlevse 18:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Fianna Éireann while not part of the international scouting movement was a nationalist movement inspired by scouting in the same way that the Hitler Youth was a facist movement inspired by scouting. So there is a connection and it should be reflected some way in the scouting articles. -- Gramscis cousin 08:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure that the Countess was in the IRB (not sure they admitted women at all) definitely in the period when the IRB was most active around her time her allegiance was with the Citizen's Army. Please source if I'm wrong on this. -- Gramscis cousin 08:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
What is the correct spelling of her name? Is it MarkieWicz or MarkieVicz? A google search for Countess Markievicz returns 18,000 whereas a search for Countess Markiewicz returns 779. On oireachtas members database her name is given as "Countess Constance Georgina de Markievicz". In the current article both versions are used. Snappy56 17:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Is it true that on her way to the 1916 Easter Rising she shot an unarmed Dublin policeman? If so, did she ever explain why she did this?-- User:RFMJR (talk) 00:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe Constance Markiewicz was ever known or addressed as Constance Georgine, Countess Markiewicz. Certainly I have never seen it in the literature. Countess Markiewicz, yes, but not the whole thing. The article has been named according to the naming convention for UK countesses, but Markiewicz was married to a Polish count, and never lived in Poland, so the convention does not apply. Interestingly, the Polish Wikipedia article is titled "Constance Markiewicz", as are the German, Spanish, French and Norwegian articles (the Irish article is titled "Constance Gore-Booth Markiewicz"). Any objections if I move this to Constance Markiewicz? Scolaire ( talk) 11:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I have been bold and moved it. I will revert if anybody objects later. Scolaire ( talk) 12:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
She was not a UK countess therefore was not known as or called Constance Georgine, Countess Markiewicz but Countess Markiewicz. Check the Polish wikipedia. It is very relevant. Snappy56 ( talk) 16:33, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The suggestion that Constance Markievicz stood as a candidate in the 1908 Manchester by-election against Winston Churchill is extremely puzzling and seems incorrect since women at that date were only permitted to stand in local (municipal) elections and for roles such as Poor Law Guardians. They would not be legally entitled to stand for Parliament until 1918. Contemporary sources such as the Manchester Guardian reference Countess Markiwiecz being active, together with other women suffragists, including her sister Eva Gore-Booth in opposing Winston Churchill's candidature since the Liberal Government's policy at the time was opposed to women's suffrage. Constance Markievicz made headlines by driving a coach and four white horses through the streets at election time [Anne Marecco, The Rebel Countess, Weidenfield and Nicholson 1967; the Manchester Guardian 1908] but her actions seem directed at defeating Chruchill not at promoting any specific alternative candidate. Legionseagle ( talk) 07:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Is it true that newly released documents show that she actually begged for her life before the tribunal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.127.126.110 ( talk) 09:29, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Ruth Dudley Edwards, in her 2006 lecture on Countess Markievicz, says this is true. The recording is here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Filceolaire ( talk • contribs) 15:19, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian ( talk) 02:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Constance Markiewicz →
Constance Markievicz – "Constance markievicz" returns 45400 results on google, "constance markiewicz" returns 32500 results. While I have no doubt that her husband was born adn was known by Markiewicz, Constance herself was known generally by Markievicz, as can be seen in the names of places named after her (see prior discussion of her name a few sections up).
79.97.144.17 (
talk) 03:23, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
*Doubtful: If they were married, they should reasonably have the same name with the same spelling, shouldn't they? And the difference is not overwhelming.
HandsomeFella (
talk) 08:54, 6 August 2011 (UTC) (see below)
*Oppose: Needs more than a Google search.--
Domer48
'fenian' 09:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Can anyone post any references to the Polish song that was supposedly adopted by her as an ICA anthem with changed lyrics? Which song was that? Is there any recording of her version? Silmethule ( talk) 00:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
I've removed the claim made by William Wylie from the article. Its based on one (rather biased) individual's recollection of the trial and hasn't been supported by the court transcripts. If anyone disagrees, feel free to comment. CivisHibernius ( talk) 19:40, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
On what basis does it say that she is the 'gazelle' in Yeats' poem 'In Memory of Eva Gore-Booth and Con Markiewicz'?
In her political career she was generally referred to as "Madame Markievicz" or "Madame de Markievicz". In the 1919–22 Dáil transcripts, she is "Countess Markievicz" and "Madame Markieivicz" variously, with the latter predominating by 1922. I would have thought that, as a republican, she repudiated the noble title "Countess". Is there evidence that she explicitly addressed the question at all? The fact that it was a Polish rather than a British title might make the incongruity less pointed, but OTOH Poland was a republic after 1918. Admittedly Count Plunkett's title was also incongruous, but the Papal nobility would have been a special case for Catholic republicans of the era. According to Kathleen Behan, the upperclass ladies in Inghinidhe na hÉireann all used "Madame" in preference to "Mrs" or "Bean", which suggests but does not prove that "Lady", "Countess", etc. were inconceivable. "Madame" tout court was an affectionate nickname for Markievicz; was it sometimes pronounced "Madam"? Dev's eulogy: "Madame Markievicz is gone from us. Madame the friend of the toiler, the lover of the poor." jnestorius( talk) 13:44, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
She was definitely a real fake Countess, which tells us how gullible our ancestors were, and also how most Irish historians copy the last book without double checking their facts. 78.17.57.86 ( talk) 20:11, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Whether through the concerted efforts of a few individuals or just an accident of editing by committee, this article has completely lost all objectivity. Every glorifying myth and propaganda anecdote concerning Mrs Markiewicz seems to have been taken as Gospel. Every pithy quote "attributed" to her is trotted out uncritically. Her right to the style of Countess is blithely defended without any mention of the controversy surrounding her husband's claim to the title of Count. And at the same time, her well-documented murder of an unarmed policeman is erased from the record, in favour of the unsupported claim that she wounded a "British sniper". This is not a factual article, it's a political hagiography, and the sort of thing that brings Wikipedia into disrepute. I would make edits, but to be honest the whole piece is so far gone that the best thing would be to delete it and start over again. Joe kearns ( talk) 23:34, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
Scolaire I am the IP-78 guy you mention above and nothing to do with Joe Kearns. Lots of people know about the "title" and its non-validity can be checked with e.g. John Gilmartin the Dublin art historian who knows lots more about Casimir D-M. Its survival up to now just shows how bad a lot of Irish historians are, copying pub gossip that is then it is quoted in another book and becomes verified quotable history. 78.17.51.81 ( talk) 19:56, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
The current wording, relying on Fianna material from 1965, implies that Markiewicz was the sole founder of Fianna Éireann, whereas it is generally accepted that she was the co-founder, with Bulmer Hobson - the original, northern Fianna having been founded in 1902 by Hobson. I think, particularly in view of the circumstances pertaining in 1965, this reference has to be regarded as suspect. Hobson had, after all, opposed the Rising and was thereafter marginalized and ostracized by militant Republicanism. Should we not entertain the possibility that, in a time of increasing militarization and escalating sectarian tensions, McNulty and O'Shea wanted to write him out of the Fianna's history, in favour of Markiewicz? Joe kearns ( talk) 21:49, 27 March 2016 (UTC)
Looking at the cited material from Neil Richardson, Ann Matthews and Lauren Arrington it seems to be pretty well established that Markievicz was at St Stephen's Green and did shoot Constable Lahiff. Richardson's version of events contains significant details not present in the Geraldine Fitzgerald account referenced by Matthews and Arrington, so evidently more than one witness placed her there. In view of this, I want to question the validity of conflicting claims that she was elsewhere. It isn't clear from the way the references are all positioned together, but I'm assuming that the source of this was Anne Haverty. I haven't seen her book yet and I won't presume to pass judgement on it until I have, but I think it has to be treated with some scepticism under the circumstances, and I would like your view, Scolaire, as someone who clearly has read it. On the one hand, Richardson and Arrington are professional historians with reputations to uphold, and Matthews - while perhaps not a historian by training - has clearly taken the trouble to do actual research. My question is: is Haverty's work strong enough to stand up against these as a serious and credible alternative voice? From what I can gather, her Markievicz biography was an on-commission job for a publisher with an overtly feminist and socialist agenda, which would at least cast some doubt on its impartiality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joe kearns ( talk • contribs) 12:29, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
I have reverted the changes by @ Poissonette:. One significant problem is the attempt to move the location of Lahiff to Dublin Castle, the problem being that it was a completely different constable shot by somebody else entirely at Dublin Castle. FDW777 ( talk) 08:41, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
I have tagged as dubious the claim that she was sent to prison for her Republican views. Even during the Civil War, that seems most unlikely. So I have tagged it as dubious because it is significant enough to justify something more that an ordinary citation needed. -- Red King ( talk) 17:33, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
Hi all,
I really want your opinion about this addition:
A very important figure in Dublin during the Easter Rising where she led the troops with Michael Mallin. She was the only one not to be executed by the British simply because she was a woman. The official document commemorating all the soldiers executed by the British during the Easter Rising is currently at The Little Museum of Dublin [1].
Thanks a million, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Léa Di Francesco ( talk • contribs) 13:12, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
References