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"Now mankind can receive the reasonable partner capable to help with satisfaction of any imaginable desires."
Michael Zeldich
Introduction
In our opinion in order to fulfill the requirements to the system capable of understanding what it is doing the new class of devices should be developed.
That class of devices will differ from all the currently known devices in the computer field, because they will be subjective. Subjective nature could bring to that class of devices the ability to learn instead of to be programmed. That, in turn, raises the question of how to motivate them to perform the tasks which are necessary for the owner. It is known that at MIT, for example, researchers are developing the basic principles of building the robotic society where members of it could be motivated by programmed analog for human moral rules.
We could propose the different way of motivation. Projected systems could be motivated according to desire of the motivator.
The Basic concepts
In our opinion, there is no reason to attempt to develop the “Consciousness” system. The theories of "Consciousness" have described its properties by explaining the behavior of the system. Every known explanation of its properties actually is a description of some act of the behavior 1 of the "conscious" system. We believe that it is possible to develop the subjective systems which will behave in reasonable way. However, the problem is not only in the designated terms. Our opinion is that the concept of "Consciousness", in a technical sense, isn’t a valid one. It is a thought up, nonexistent phenomenon. The theories are attributing the various properties to "Consciousness", but it is not proven that it is possible to define it in a scientifically consistent way. Assumption that “Consciousness” is really existing phenomenon, inevitably leads to necessity, to place the central managing body inside of the brain, but that is in contradiction with the known facts. Nevertheless, attempts to create and study “Consciousness” systems still continue. The last, known to me attempt to design the elements of a “Consciousness” systems was based on micro-tubular structure theory proposed by professors Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff. As a result of that study, according to the authors of the theory, connections between a micro-tubular structure and “Consciousness” has not been established. We have opinion, that the term “Reason” instead of the controversial terms “Cognitive”, “Consciousness” or "Artificial Intelligence" makes more sense for a description of the subject.
We can judge about the abilities of the system to be reasonable only by the phenomenon of its observable behavior. The hierarchy of subjective models which reflect its past experience determines the behavior of the system. The control system aspires to receive the greatest positive reaction on the part of itself, and other reasonable systems, if it is a member of the society, by establishing the models of behavior (1).
The summary of the above is:
"The system is reasonable, if it is capable to determine its own behavior, be guided by its own, subjective representation about the World known to it."
There is no rationality without subjectivity!
The World is given to us by subjective representation!
We believe that creation of the reasonable systems could be directed by these ideas. The reasonable system can’t be guided directly by any finite set of programs. Almost all that is necessary for the development of the discussed system could be derived from these statements.
(1. the term “behavior” is describes all that is happening with the system under influence of it’s own internal causes. For example, speech, mind, perceiving, feeling at al. are kinds of behavior.)
Here is an analogy: Consciousness:Cells as Culture:Population So consciousness is a culture formed by the interaction of all the cells in a human. 72.209.71.249 03:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)ME:)
And I say, Consciousness is our true identity, it is who and what we truly are. You are Consciousness. You are the eternal witness, the only aspect of Creation that never change. The mind is only a tool for us (Consciousness). With it (mind) we can imagine, with it we may experience anything, whatever we choose. We have six senses, smell, taste, sight, touch, hearing and the sixth with which we may perceive higher dimensions, energies and beings. With the sixth sense we can perceive beyond the limits of our flesh and behold the True Nature of Reality. / Minoya 18:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This section is about the description and location of phenomenal consciousness, not the "nature" of consciousness. Another section is needed for the latter.
The assertion about Descartes' description of conscious experience in this article has been challenged, references for this assertion are given below and an extended discussion can be found in the archive.
References for Descartes' description of phenomenal consciousness as things laid out in space and time and viewed from a point:
Reid has a similar concept of a point, unextended soul/mind looking at things:
".. I take it for granted, upon the testimony of common sense, that my mind is a substance-that is, a permanent subject of thought; and my reason convinces me that it is an unextended and invisible substance; and hence I infer that there cannot be in it anything that resembles extension" Reid, T. (1764). An Inquiry into the Human Mind on the Principles of Common Sense. Edited by Brookes, Derek. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1997.
"It is therefore acknowledged by this philosopher to be a natural instinct or prepossession, a universal and primary opinion of all men, a primary instinct of nature, that the objects which we immediately perceive by our senses are not images in our minds, but external objects, and that their existence is independent of us and our perception." (Thomas Reid Essays, 14)"
Plato has a similar concept:
"And do you not know also that although they make use of the visible forms and reason about them, they are thinking not of these, but of the ideals which they resemble; not of the figures which they draw, but of the absolute square and the absolute diameter, and so on -- the forms which they draw or make, and which have shadows and reflections in water of their own, are converted by them into images, but they are really seeking to behold the things themselves, which can only be seen with the eye of the mind?"(The Republic)
As have many other philosophers... loxley 09:27, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't like this part: "Evidence from parapsychology of psychokinesis or telepathy, if substantiatied, might support the theory that the location of consciousness is not confined to the brain." Why would telepathy, if substantiated, support this? Also, it seems that telepathy is given too much credit here. Any Ideas on how to reword this?
After mulling this over for a while, I've made a few changes to correct for POV. The most obvious change is that I removed an entire section entitled "Consciousness - My Guessplanation", because it contained nothing relevant to the article. A personal view of consciousness is POV by definition, and a "guessplanation" clearly constitutes research by the auhtor. Frankly, I'm surprised that this section wasn't cut out earlier.
The other changes, aside from some grammar and such, were focused on removing \very clear bias towards the Chalmers school. I toned down apparent endorsements and made reference to views that differ from his. The issue is genuinely controversial, so we must remain NPOV.
As always, I'm wide open to suggestions for corrections, further research and so on. Alienus 07:25, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
As I've pointed out already, Dennett defines qualia the same way everyone else does. Where he differs from people like Chalmers is that he argues against their existence. Now, if you want to support your claim that Dennett has some alternate definition, then I'll be glad to listen. In the absence of support from verifiable sources, I cannot distinguish your changes from simple POV.
Speaking of POV, it's terribly dishonest to accuse me of what you are guilty of. Wherever you touch down, you erase or slander Dennett's ideas. Sometimes the damage is from ignorance, as you really do not have a solid understanding of his stance, but often the changes seem to serve no purpose but to make him look bad. This is embarassing for you, and I'm at the point where I'm going to have to give up repeating myself and instead take this to a higher authority. Alienus 12:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
<Commenting on the phrase in Turing Test--Alan Turing proposed what is now known as the Turing test to determine if a computer could simulate human conversation undetectably. This test is commonly cited in discussion of artificial intelligence. See Chinese room.>
From
Joseph E. LeDoux The Emotional Brain: the Mysterious Underpinnings of Emotional Life; 1996; ISBN:
0684836599; p.281.
Yesselman 22:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
-- Furrypig 01:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Yesselman confuses complexity of cognition with the actuality of consciousness. The more complex computers become only increases the sophistication (speed and algorithims) of physical processes. However, it is clear that qualia are purely "out of the dark" and personally observable, unlike a bunch of electrons bouncing around on silicon.
I noticed some debate over Dennett's position on qualia. I'm not very sure about it myself, and the fact that I disagree with Dennett doesn't make it easy for me to understand his view fairly. But I've always understood that he basically believed qualia didn't exist. According to this website [1]: "But, Dennett says, let's be clear: there are no such things as qualia". That seems to coincide with how I've come to understand Dennett, i.e. he's a physicalist.
Loxley, do you have a reference to show "Dennett maintains that qualia exist in terms of judgements or beliefs"?
My guess (and I've never read much directly written by him) is that he believes that qualia do not exist, but that we've somehow fooled ourselves by confusing judgements and beliefs with qualia. Aaron McDaid ( talk - contribs) 13:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
continuation of Loxley's comment...
Alienus has a standard technique of reverting any changes in an article to his own version then writing on the comment "(Opponent) stop edit warring now" or similar. This is done so that arbitrators/mediators will accuse the other party of edit warring!
Notice that Alienus has simply reverted my last edit entirely. I am not going to change the text now but would be very grateful if another editor of this article could examine the issue.
The last edit by Alienus was 19:09 1/2/06. loxley 09:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Alienus has just reverted again without any discussion. Just the comment that the quote about phenomenal consciousness by Dennett was "worthless". This quote is from a philosopher who is difficult to label and explains his idea of phenomenal consciousness in his own words. It is essential for clarifying the debate. loxley 12:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Identical subjects. Lapaz 04:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, in an article, there should be a balance between the complexity of an article and the simplicity of an article. Please admit with me that in order to comprehend this article, one would have to be a material expert of the philosophy of the mind and it's consciousness, or at least possess a great ammount of intelligence, in addition to knowledge. This article is not balanced in this virtual scale. It is deeply tipped toward complexity, and while it might offer more information than if it were simpler, it is very hard to comprehend. I believe this is a problem, and while I cannot quote any wikipedia policy, I believe something should be changed, or perhaps a summary be given. Granted it would be very hard to summarize the article into something that would be easier to understand...
Opinions? GofG ||| Contribs 01:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I think a possible solution is a newspaper-style long article. This works in the following way: the first paragraph / few lines of each section give a basic overview of the content that will be covered, explaining the principles, concepts and ideas that will be explained. The article then effectivly starts over again, but including a greater level of detail in order to expand to the level of complexity appreciated by experianced psychologists. This way, a user can start off reading a paragraph and stop reading once the talk gets to a level he/she is unable to understand, whilst still having gained a basic grounding in the idea/principle/theory.
silvarbullet1 ||| Contribs 10:50pm, 14 May 2006 GMT
I recently reverted some text by 209.135.109.15, which came uncited and looked like it was a rehash of popularizations of QM consciousness. Unfortunately, 209.135.109.15 seems to be new to Wikipedia and doesn't know how to deal with disagreement, so they've edit-warred to get their text kept. I am instead asking that they come here and discuss what I object to about it so that we can come to some consensus. Alienus 07:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Yet another artical on an infinitely vast and endlessly controversial topic which I will have to rescue from edit wars and other nonsense (if I ever have the time and health/energy)? Ok...I can't look it over just now. First criticism: there are a lot of refernces but the article is badly referenced. For some clue on the meaning of this enigmatic assertion, please see my FA philosophy of mind or Katyn Forest by Pronconcsul Piotr (17 FAs!!!). Second problem: does not confrom to WP:LEAD. Third: get rid of the navigation thingie on the bottom (this is just a question of personal taste, but I think it's clutering. No offense to anyone intended.-- Lacatosias 07:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
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Hi, can anyone tell me what is so wrong with the 2-paragraph text I want to add, and why it shouldn't be presented on wikipedia, since it is more than relevant to the subject of consciousness:
"According to some recent theories like infomysticism, technognosticism, involving also quantum physics, regarding quants as 'messenger particles' (carriers of information, so quantum non-locality/teleportation is simply a matter of 'resetting a value'), and all the physical universe is based on underlying information (bits of some 'nature's binary code', more basic than even vibration) - consciousness is understood as a symbiosis (interaction) of Mind and Information. Mind (or soul) is, as manifestation of the essence, non-physical, and Mind (on any level in pantheistic aspect) emanates from The Spirit (the totality of manifestable essence). Mind is a 'driver', and the associated organic form (material body) is its 'vehicle' (for this physical world). And the morphic field of the mind's past (a complex abstract/energetic form) is the 'baggage' of an individual. Morphic fields (term introduced by Rupert Sheldrake) are the universal database of experience.
Consciousness, as the interaction of mind/soul (essence) and information (quantum energy and information from morphic fields/hyperplanes) is what a complete living self is (driver + vehicle + baggage). The 'modern gnostic prophet' Philip K. Dick defined a person in Gnosis, as a symbiosis of Mind and Information, considering heightened consciousness as achieved Gnosis/insight, necessary for the self-realization and salvation from Demiurge's Hysterema (world of imperfection and suffering). Self-realization through Gnosis would mean that (high) consciousness gets preserved after physical death somehow (and 'vehicle' successfully transformed from matter into 'pure energy')."
Ndru01
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I did notice some minor mistakes in expression and made changes. Also, through google easily references can be found to Erik Davis or Steve Mizrach. Also I mentioned Rupert Sheldrake (leading scientist in the field of telepathy and extended mind today with revolutionary theory of morphic fields (Formative Causation)), and additional reference (some might find it very useful) to Philip K Dick. So nothing is 'hidden'... Maybe I should have mentioned David Bohm as well, but he is referenced in this article anyways: http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/techgnosis.html (comes through google with search 'infomysticism' among the first ones, and the one that is the most complete of the links that return with a search). And I mentioned Bohm under my addition to 'Demon' entry, that is also for some reason for someone problematic to be presented...
greetings Ndru01
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Ok, some different organizing of text might be indeed a better solution... Just, speaking of using words, I have to say that Rupert Sheldrake is pure strict science. For a rational objective mind, even Darwin is more 'parapsychology' than Sheldrake (since Sheldrake's explanation of evolution is more complete than Darwin's, coming 'on top of it'), or some Dawkins with his unbelievable 'selfish genes' certainly more 'parapsychology' than Sheldrake... Term '(today's) alternative science' although also unfortunate is however much better than 'parapsi'...
greetings, Ndru01
ps. Ok, I agree my text to be where you put it now... Thx.
_________________________
It was recently suggested (by Dawkins, the somewhat opponent of Sheldrake, but obviously interested in subject of telepathy himself) to, regarding telepathy, change its categorization from paranormal to perinormal, and this, as I understood, is now under consideration by the scientific community. This would mean the soon telepathy won't be anymore under 'parapsychology' as well, but under 'peri-psychology', or 'peri-science' or whatever...
greetings, Ndru01
Whoever put the cleanup tag on this article has a good point. I think a lot of the article should be shifted to Awareness. Especially the bits about:
The way the article is going it will end up with "Political consciousness" and "fashion consciousness" as subheadings! All these things are Awareness, not the phenomenon of consciousness. Even Dennett's ideas are really about awareness and spoil the article as a feature about the phenomenon of consciousness itself ie: I am conscious and I am also conscious OF x - being conscious OF x is awareness. Machines can be aware.
See http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/consciou.htm#SSH4b.i
Some of the confusion may be due to linguistic problems, for instance in Russian the word "consciousness" has overtones of social knowledge. See http://psycprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00000239/
Robinhw 00:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
...needs some cleanup. Techgnosticism gets 33 googlehits — non-notable. Infomysticism, 74 googlehits. Original research. — goethean ॐ 19:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if some emails are being automatically sent, but that is simply not my fault... I would very much like to turn off that automatic thing if it is possible, so please advice how to turn it off... Alternative science maybe needs some minor 'cleanup', but please let it stay as a section. And I don't see the relevance of how many google hits something gets to the subject itself, the hits are just a measure of popularity and not of the real value of something.
Ndru01 11:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Why was alternative science again deleted? I agree that 'spamming' is something wrong, but editing something many times with very minor edits in order to perfect the text cannot be anything wrong, but the opposite Ndru01 11:57, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
_______________
Yes, I know that, and I never sent any unsolicited emails to anyone. So I really don't know what did Lacatosias mean when he said "spamming my email adress to death", I was equally surprised as you.
Ndru01
____________________________________
If word 'science' is so disputable, then my text certainly should be allowed to go under 'Modern Mysticism', whatever logic and intepratation of words you may try to impose.
Sincere bestwishes, Ndru01 14:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
ps. I still don't know what you mean by unsolicited email. If you mean my editing the article shortly before I officially registered, I apologize for that, but I didn't understand that is such a big crime, otherwise it shouldn't be allowed in the first place (anonimous editing). So I am not a liar, I didn't lie about anything.
__________________________________
Either Alienus or Latacosias deleted my text again. It wasn't under Alternative Science anymore, but under Modern Mysticism. Can they please explain why can't it remain as Modern Mysticism, since it is certainly relevant to the subject and is undoubtedly Modern Mysticism (if it is not Alternative Science):
According to some recent theories like Infomysticism and TechGnosticism that base themselves on quantum physics represented in work of David Bohm and others (that regard quanta as 'messenger particles', i.e. carriers of information, with the result that quantum teleportation based on quantum nonlocality is simply a matter of 'resetting a value'), and have many roots in some very old philosophical and religious systems, dating to Plato, and even ancient civilizations (since Gnosticism can be traced back to ancient times), combined with today's Information Science, all of the physical universe is based on underlying information (nature's binary code) more basic than even vibration (any two non-physical values as 0 and 1), so matter itself is (en)coded ('bits' of) information in this 'program'. On this view, consciousness is understood as a symbiosis of mind and information. Mind (or soul) is, as a manifestation of the essence, non-physical, and mind emanates from the Spirit (the manifestable essence). Mind is a 'driver', having an associated organic form (material body) as its 'vehicle', and this manifests through any level in pantheistic hierarchy/ holarchy, either a mind/soul of a single cell (with very primitive, elemental consciousness), a human or animal mind/soul (with consciousness on a level of organic synergy of an individual human/animal), or a (superior) mind/soul with synergetically extremely complex/sophisticated consciousness of whole galaxies involving all sub-levels. On the other hand, the morphic field of the mind's past is the 'baggage' of an individual (on the synergetic level of an organism with brain, since using existing and generating new abstract forms is only possible with a brain). Thoughts are elemental abstract forms/objects. More complex abstract forms/objects are - skills, sciences, languages etc., and abstract forms are energetically real, as material forms are real ( telekinesis, moving material objects/forms with thoughts, is a direct proof of that). Past is a complex abstract/energetic form/object consisting of all the thoughts, experiences and memories of that mind through its physical lifetime (its ' Akashic Record'). Morphic fields (a term introduced by Rupert Sheldrake) are the universal database of experience (Dr Dejan Rakovic interprets these fields actually as hyperplanes, and uses a term isomorphism instead of morphic resonance, but the basic concept is almost the same as Sheldrake's). The morphic field/hyperplane of a form contains the actual data relevant for that form. All organic (living) and abstract (brain-generated/used) forms have their associated morphic fields, and they 'store' their related data both privately (individually) and collectively (in a one collective morphic field for those similar forms), which is a concept very similar to classes in object-oriented programming languages. Inorganic (lifeless) forms have no morphic fields. Akashic Records, term used in Vedas are only a subset of this universal database of all-connected morphic fields.
So, Consciousness, as the interaction of Mind (essence, the 'driver') and Information (quantum energy and information from morphic fields/hyperplanes) is what a complete living self is ('driver' + 'vehicle' + 'baggage' = consciousness).
Interesting to note is that the famous science-fiction writer Philip K. Dick (the 'modern gnostic prophet') defined a homoplasmate, a person 'in Gnosis', as a symbiosis of mind and information (similarly to the mentioned theories), considering heightened consciousness as achieved Gnosis (or insight), necessary for the self-realization and salvation from the Demiurge's hysterema (world of imperfection and suffering). Self-realization through Gnosis, if true, would mean that higher consciousness gets preserved after physical death somehow (and the 'vehicle' would be successfully transformed from matter into 'pure energy').
Ndru01 02:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I though it said to use Ndru01 07:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC) or only Ndru01 . But ok, I'll put this time that hyperlinked as you said.
The text quality maybe isn't perfect, but it is however not low at all, it is made very understandable as much as possible, since the content is extremely complex. And because it involves many different things, I don't know what exactly to cite, since I cannot have 10 or 15 cites in that text. And why is it so necessary that my text have any cites, when of some 15 sections only 3 have cites, and the rest none. Plus through google, search: infomysticism gives the text (Infomysticism, Technosis and War against entropy) that is itself as whole better than citing something from it. I can mention Steve Mizrach (the author of that text), or Erik Davis, the author of books on Techgnosis. Ok, I'll put these 2 names now in a bracket in the first sentence after words Infomysticism and Technosticim, I should have done that in the first place. By OR I suppose you probably meant the dual expressions, like mind/soul, field/hyperplane, hierarchy/holarhy, human/animal, form/object, abstract/energetic, complex/sophisticated and generated/used. Well, what's wrong with them? Some people do like them, incl myself, and hold that they have more explanatory potential and make the understanding easier, not more complicated. This text actually somehow requires these expressions, since it needs to combine and merge things, the whole aspect is on merging and presenting the merged result, which in fact happens to revolves around consciousness, our subject. Of these expressions, maybe only complex/sophisticated wasn't quite right, that one should have been AND, not OR (/), but ok, I'll correct that too. The rest was all there for a valid reason, since they appeared first as single in some context, but later, the new context needed them together.
greetings, <Ndru01>Ndru01 07:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)</Ndru01>
ps, didn't work the signature, let's try again differently Ndru01Ndru01 07:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
but what exactly is unintelligible in the text? Ndru01
ps. Ok I reduced the text now significantly, 9-10 rows are deleted from the end of the 1st paragrapsh, since that text can be found following the link to morphic fields, and can be however omitted here. I do try to be cooperative, as much as possible...
greetins Ndru01 16:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Will you please stop deleting the text whoever is doing that. It is now reduced and improved, so it should stay as it is.
Ndru01 22:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reference for the definition "quality"? as referring to consciousness? DanielDemaret 21:00, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Of course, one must note that,just as in German there is no word for mind, in Italian there is realy NO WORD for conscsiouness. Coscienza is used to indicate both conscience and consciousness.-- Lacatosias 10:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps one could start out with something like this to list all the different meanings, and list one or two references in brackets for each meaning?:
Consciousness. Meanings include:
DanielDemaret 14:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Or possibly a disambiguation page? Or a nifty little coloured table in a box to the right? DanielDemaret 14:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Consciousness is a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment. It is a subject of much research in philosophy of mind, psychology, neurology, and cognitive science.
Some philosophers divide consciousness into phenomenal consciousness, which is experience itself, and access consciousness, which is the processing of the things in experience (Block 2004). Phenomenal consciousness is the state of being conscious, such as when we say "I am conscious" and access consciousness is being conscious of something, such as when we say I am conscious of these words. The following articles discuss various forms of access consciousness:
This article is mainly about phenomenal consciousness.
Many cultures and religious traditions place the seat of consciousness in a soul separate from the body. In contrast, many scientists and philosophers consider consciousness to be intimately linked to the neural functioning of the brain, dictating the way by which the world is experienced.
Humans (and often other animals, as well) are variously said to possess consciousness, self-awareness, and a mind that contains our sensations, perceptions, dreams, lucid dreams, inner speech and imagination etc. Each of us has a subjective view. There are many debates about the extent to which the mind constructs or experiences the outer world, the passage of time, and free will.
An understanding of necessary preconditions for consciousness in the human brain may allow us to address important ethical questions. For instance, to what extent are non-human animals conscious? At what point in fetal development does consciousness begin? Can machines ever achieve conscious states? These issues are of great interest to those concerned with the ethical treatment of other beings, be they animals, fetuses, or in the future, machines.
In common parlance, consciousness denotes being awake and responsive to one's environment; this contrasts with being asleep or being in a coma. The term 'level of consciousness' denotes how consciousness seems to vary during anesthesia and during various states of mind, such as day dreaming, lucid dreaming, imagining, etc. Nonconsciousness exists when consciousness is not present. There is speculation, especially among religious groups, that consciousness may exist after death or before birth.
Robinhw 15:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The new intro is too long. It references itself. The bulleted list is ugly and gratuitous. — goethean ॐ 15:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, it was indeed still long. Now it is finally reasonable length, since I didn't really need that part about quantum nonlocality, and the explanation that Gnosticism dates back to ancient times (instead just 'ancient Gnostics'):
Modern Gnosticism
According to some recent theories like TechGnosticism ( Erik Davis), Infomysticism [ [6]], that base themselves on quantum physics (regarding quanta as “messenger particles”, i.e. carriers of information) and have many roots in old philosophies dating back to Plato and the ancient ( Gnostics), combined with Digital Philosophy and today's Information Science - all of the physical universe is based on underlying information (nature's binary code, with two non-physical values for 0 and 1), so matter itself, as well as the abstract forms/objects, is just encoded ('bits' of) information in this 'program'. On this view, consciousness is understood as a symbiosis of Mind and Information. Mind (or soul) is, as a manifestation of the essence, non-physical, and mind emanates from the Spirit (the manifestable essence). Mind is a 'driver', having an associated organic form (material body) as its 'vehicle', and this manifests through any level in pantheistic holarchy, either a mind/soul of a single cell (with very primitive, elemental consciousness), a human or animal mind/soul (with consciousness on a level of organic synergy of an individual human or animal), or a (superior) mind/soul with synergetically extremely complex and sophisticated consciousness of whole galaxies involving all sub-levels. On the other hand, the morphic field of the mind's past is the 'baggage' of an individual (on the synergetic level of an organism with brain, since using existing and generating new abstract forms is only possible with a brain). Abstract forms same as organic forms have their associated morphic fields. Past is a complex abstract/energetic form, consisting of all the thoughts, experiences and memories of that mind through its physical lifetime, its 'Akashic Record' ( Akashic Records, term used in Vedas are only a subset of this universal database of all-connected morphic fields).
So, Consciousness, as the interaction of Mind (essence, the 'driver') and Information (quantum energy, the 'vehicle' + information from morphic fields/hyperplanes, the 'baggage') is what a complete living self is (Mind + Information = Consciousness).
Interesting to note is that the famous science-fiction writer Philip K. Dick (the 'modern gnostic prophet') defined a homoplasmate, a person 'in Gnosis', as a symbiosis of mind and information (similarly to the mentioned theories), considering heightened consciousness as achieved Gnosis (or insight), necessary for the self-realization and salvation from the Demiurge's hysterema (world of imperfection and suffering). Self-realization through Gnosis, if true, would mean that higher consciousness gets preserved after physical death somehow (and the 'vehicle' would be successfully transformed from matter into 'pure energy').
So please, don't delete it now! Thanks, Ndru01 15:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
How many concepts of consciousness and cults are there out there? Having a section for each one in the consciousness article would be absurd. The section on Modern Gnosticism should be transferred out to Modern Gnosticism. Otherwise we will have to allow a section for every type of yogic practice, every religion, marxism, humanism, scientology, every new age practice and philosophy, all mystical pursuits from orphism through cabalism to rosicrucianism........ The consciousness article is an overview. Surely it should point to these other articles but not contain them. Can we have a vote below on whether or not the section should be included here. Robinhw 15:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
---Yes---
---No---
Is the number of conscious beings that can exist at one point in time infinit? If so there must be an infinit number of potential identities. Common wisdom tells us that nothing is infinit. This problem can therefore be solved if only one identity exists. If so we are all the same person living different lives.
This forumala although disturbing, solves many problems. (My english is not very good) Firstly, the number of possible beings that can exist at a point in time is only limited by the amount of space and matter available. If there is infinit space and matter available than an infinit number of beings can exist. If every being has a different identity then there must be something infinit that distinguishes all of them. Not only is infinity unattractive, there is no known physical mechanism to distinguish beings. For instance lets look at a classic problem involving quantum mechanics. We now know that in the future we will be able to make exact replications of objects through teleportation. Inorder to teleport an object it first has to be destroyed. Suppose we destroy a human then recreate him/her elsewhere. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. The problem arises when we destroy a human being and then recreate him/her in two or more locations. There will be no physical difference between the two humans yet you are saying they have different identities. Furthermore, which human is original identity? Even more troubling is that we are constantly being teleportated by natural means since motion is quantized. Why are we the same identity if we are teleported as one being, but different identities when we are teleported as two or more beings.
Secondly, there have been new breakthroughs in physics over the past decades. Entanglement is the instant communication between objects no matter the distance. Physics can only conclude that physical distance is not required for information to travel from one point to another. Furthermore, the study of black holes has led us to believe that we might be living in a two-dimensional universe. This has been named "Holographic Principle." Photons simply give the impression of higher dimensional space (recent issue Scientific American). If that is the case, this would solve your multiplicity issue. In addition the "Many Worlds Theory" could use simplifying. The theory attempts to explain quantum theory but requires dopplegangers. (google Many Worlds Theory)
Thirdly, how would you distinguish yourself from someone else. You can't! All you can do is say you have a different perspective, personality, etc. The problem is all these things rely on the brain which is physical. You cannot distinguish consciousness. You could be anyone and anyone could be you.
Fourthly, think about the following. What is the difference between being unborn or dead. There is no difference because you are not living in either case. Perhaps we occupy other lives before and after life. If so, this would not make any sense according to current notions.
The notion that only one identity exists solves all the above problems. You can question if there is only one identity, why are you so lucky to be alive. Well perhaps there are more identities outside our universe. According to string theory our universe is a single brane floating in an ocean of other brains. Current views regarding the mind seem impossible and are left unanswered. My formula answers many questions and simplifies the theory of the mind.
Encyclopdeias render the unkown in terms of the known. "Conciousness" is is neither the known - or the unkown - but the knowing. Dictoinaries define words, so there should be just a list of links to the the mainstream (or significant) religions, and any research based science articles that may exist - nothing else at all.
Let's assume people know the meaning of this fairly everyday word and point them to some stuff they haven't seen, but exits (i.e. churches and experiments ect.) 86.135.97.90 04:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
No offence or anything, but the article kind of lacks a good, clean definition of "consciousness." One definition I've run into is "consciousness = awareness" and human consciousness = awareness that one is actually aware". Terryeo 04:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
There is some activity on thought that might interest people who contribute to this article. Alienus 04:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, yes. Alienus 07:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I rv the deletion of the part on Locke. While it can certainly be discussed, I think that the talk subsection here entitled "Identical identities" clearly show that Locke has addressed this kind of problem. Lapaz 01:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This practice is deprecated. Font's should be sized either on personal preferences, or by using the .references-small { font-size: 90%;} class. See the extensive discussion -- Blainster 21:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Could the voice in my head be considered consciousness, and worth mentioning? For example, when I do math, or try to make something I'm about to say more tactful, I use spoken words in my head to see how it sounds first. Sometimes I will even agree with myself and ask myself questions, and then answer them. Perhaps this article already mentions it in an obsure technical way, and therefore I missed it. However, if that is the case, I have a belief that laymen's terms never hurt anyone. Or maybe this falls under thought?
I added two weasel tags because there are many parts of the article, especially those two sections, which contain phrases that are too vague to describe the sources. Some examples:
-- Hcx0331 03:45, 26 Jul 2006
How about "Consciousness" derives from Latin conscientia which primarily means moral conscience - if that is not a Tautology then what is it? -- 134.184.67.185 11:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
May i add a section of levels of awereness? something like this:"Levels of consciousness"
-Not aware (Sub-conscious) -Weak awareness (Phenomenal consciousness) -Self-awareness -awareness of ones existense -awareness of ones observation -awareness of ones calculation -awareness of ones psychological aspects
I just need some help to complete the list and to make it more representative to reality.. Ressonans 00:32, 18 aug 2006 (GMT)
I have ceased using the term "consciousness" because it no longer "stands for" the awareness aspect of Spirituality. For my own use, I now use the term Apapsyche: apas (sanskrit work,working) + psyche (Greek self,soul, and mind} = Operational Energy of the Soul. The tendency and inclintion of those who have not personally visited the Esoteric within themselves is to perceive of "consciousness" as something that one can "think" about, and apply like paint to any difficult to esplain phenomenon.
In other words, part of the defintion of "consciousness" it seems to me, is that the term is first and foremost an "abstract term". It "stands for" a reality that cannot be known intellectually [by one brain and thinking], and can only be known experientially. One must be in an altered state of awareness in order to perceive the reality of "consciousness". Short of that, one may reference it by its abstrat label, that of "consciousness".... but it should be made abundantly clear that, what the abstrat term stands for may not be known by ones brain and thinking.
It seems to me that the thrust of what is developing is an attempt to push "consciousness" into the MIND, and this would be an error. Consciousnes is a dimension of ones Spirituality, and is also of a permanent and absolute nature, wereas the MIND is not permanent, in an absolute ssense, and it is not part of the Spiritual realm. Indeed, in Eastern mysticism it is explained that it is Spiritual energy that sustains the operations of the MIND. ______________________ Docjp 15:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
And then I looked at this article and change my mind. It's a mortal sin!!-- Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 15:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
First, I notive that the introduction to the article really doesn't state what consciousness is. I took the liberty of adding a sentence which I think is an okay summary of the general attitudes towards consciousness––that it denotes an overall or general level of awareness that pervades and serves as the backdrop for specific mental operations, etc. I think that what is meant by consciousness is really something like this (and perhaps it could be phrased better), as a sort of constant state of awareness.
I think it would be nice to see someone add in a little about Ryle's take on consciousness. Ryle is, in my thought, a very underappreciated philosopher who is really quite significant. He wrote the seminal text on consciousness and mind in ordinary language philosophy. Perhaps I could add a little once I go back and read over what I have been reading. Ryle provides several arguments against consciousness, but I think it is quite alright, and perhaps necessary, to present a linguistic take on consciousness. Of course, I haven't read the entire article so this may have been done already.
Another significant aspect of Ryle's critique of consciousness, and very interesting and notable for the purposes of this article, is his overview of the various common language uses of the term in contrast with the philosophical usage. It is quite enlightening. If no one else here has read Ryle, or is willing to contribute, then, with permission, I would be willing to add some of this stuff in myself some weekend. Drifter 02:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not wish, however, to get into questions of definition. I myself am somewhat of a Wittgensteinian and so you may easily guess my position on definitions. However, consciousness, as the subject of this article, is used in a peculiar way by academics as opposed to how it is used in ordinary language. As such, we cannot make appeal to arguments such as "anyone should be able to intuit what we mean by consciousness." It is, though, an entirely valid response to say that different thinkers have different conceptions of consciousness. The purpose of the article, it seems (I have not read it all), is to convey these varied and many times dissimilar conceptions. However, is there no common thread that permeates these?
In the end, the main point is that the openning paragraphs are entirely inadequate and provide little information. Even if taken purely as introductory, I think that they classify as weak. If my definition of phenomenal consciousness offends you or at all seems wrong, I will refrain from editing the article any further and merely hope that someone will please revise the opening to be more clear and satisfactory as an introduction/summary of the rest of the article. Drifter 06:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
With all the man did in the esoteric study of cultivating active consciousness in humans, can he be fit somewhere in this article? Or perhaps that mention belongs in self-awareness. DragonGuyver 00:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no reference at all to Judeo-Christian view of conscience in this article although vague and less than defined description of oriental "altered states of conscience" (an incitation to drug use?) are proposed as the "spiritual approach" to it. This discards 5000 years of thinking on the subject. So much for a would be Encyclopedia.
An addition to this paragraph referencing the words brought down to the Hebrews by Moses as being a statement of personal conciousness, has been lately erased ...
EXODUS 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
This article winds up with no reference at all to any Judeo-Christian view upon consciousness - IMHO : very little of a comprehensive and tolerant view, don't you think?
Re the sentence: "There is speculation, especially among religious groups, and maybe some evidence, that consciousness may exist after death or before birth.
I read (skimmed) the article to find a pointer to that evidence or more discussion on those points and found none. Maybe it should be marked with "citation needed" or similar?
Rhkramer 23:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
An external link pointing to a free podcast on the iTunes store (no advertising) of a new book presenting a philosophical introduction to Awareness that is being syndicated as it goes to print was added and then removed as SPAM. If anyone is interested in having the podcast added as an external link, the information is:
I removed the following section from the article following the cleanup necessary to save retrocausality from AFD. Chris King does not appear to be recognized in the scientific community. I question whether the sourcing meets WP:RS. In general, I have reservations about the appropriateness of this content to the article, but I'm open to discussion and further sourcing (from better sources) if someone wants to go to bat for it. Serpent's Choice 07:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Free will and consciousness
Chris King in the article Chaos, Quantum-transactions and Consciousness (2003), starts from Einstein’s energy-momentum relation ( retrocausality and supercausality), and states that all quantum objects are constantly faced with bifurcations which force the system to operate choices. King quotes Eccles, Penrose and Hameroff who proved the existence of quantum structures in living systems and arrives to the conclusion that life is moved not only by mechanical causes but also by final causes (attractors). According to King, a new and innovative description of the relation between mind and brain derives from this constant state of choice in which living structures are immersed. This constant state of choice would force living systems into a state of free will which would be common to all the levels and structures of life, from molecules to macrostructures, and organisms. This constant state of free will, would originate chaotic dynamics which organize in fractal structures. Starting from these premises King suggests two separate levels of explanation of consciousness. In the first level, information flows from the mind to the brain, through free will; in the second level, information flows from the brain to the mind, thanks to the selection and amplification of signals performed by fractal structures. King’s considers mind to be immaterial, and its organization would be the consequence of the cohesive properties of –E ( syntropy). King suggests that, in order to understand what consciousness really is, it is necessary to start from free will, because at this level it becomes necessary to definitely refuse any attempt to use mechanical approaches ( http://www.sintropia.it/english/2006-eng-3.htm).
I made some small changes yesterday, with regard to the distinction between access and phenomenal consciousness. They were deleted. I am new to Wikipedia, and don't know the right procedures. But it is clear that the article as it stands is quite right wrong. Access consciousness, for instance, is defined "as the processing of the thing itself in experience". But subjects needn't be phenomenally conscious - ie, experience - anything of which they are also access conscious. And processing is not sufficient for access consciousness: it is availability for global processing that is needed.
Is there a good word for the combination of waking sensorium, imagination, memory being recalled, and sleep dreams? In other words, consciousness + dreaming? 216.179.3.247 17:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
"Now mankind can receive the reasonable partner capable to help with satisfaction of any imaginable desires."
Michael Zeldich
Introduction
In our opinion in order to fulfill the requirements to the system capable of understanding what it is doing the new class of devices should be developed.
That class of devices will differ from all the currently known devices in the computer field, because they will be subjective. Subjective nature could bring to that class of devices the ability to learn instead of to be programmed. That, in turn, raises the question of how to motivate them to perform the tasks which are necessary for the owner. It is known that at MIT, for example, researchers are developing the basic principles of building the robotic society where members of it could be motivated by programmed analog for human moral rules.
We could propose the different way of motivation. Projected systems could be motivated according to desire of the motivator.
The Basic concepts
In our opinion, there is no reason to attempt to develop the “Consciousness” system. The theories of "Consciousness" have described its properties by explaining the behavior of the system. Every known explanation of its properties actually is a description of some act of the behavior 1 of the "conscious" system. We believe that it is possible to develop the subjective systems which will behave in reasonable way. However, the problem is not only in the designated terms. Our opinion is that the concept of "Consciousness", in a technical sense, isn’t a valid one. It is a thought up, nonexistent phenomenon. The theories are attributing the various properties to "Consciousness", but it is not proven that it is possible to define it in a scientifically consistent way. Assumption that “Consciousness” is really existing phenomenon, inevitably leads to necessity, to place the central managing body inside of the brain, but that is in contradiction with the known facts. Nevertheless, attempts to create and study “Consciousness” systems still continue. The last, known to me attempt to design the elements of a “Consciousness” systems was based on micro-tubular structure theory proposed by professors Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff. As a result of that study, according to the authors of the theory, connections between a micro-tubular structure and “Consciousness” has not been established. We have opinion, that the term “Reason” instead of the controversial terms “Cognitive”, “Consciousness” or "Artificial Intelligence" makes more sense for a description of the subject.
We can judge about the abilities of the system to be reasonable only by the phenomenon of its observable behavior. The hierarchy of subjective models which reflect its past experience determines the behavior of the system. The control system aspires to receive the greatest positive reaction on the part of itself, and other reasonable systems, if it is a member of the society, by establishing the models of behavior (1).
The summary of the above is:
"The system is reasonable, if it is capable to determine its own behavior, be guided by its own, subjective representation about the World known to it."
There is no rationality without subjectivity!
The World is given to us by subjective representation!
We believe that creation of the reasonable systems could be directed by these ideas. The reasonable system can’t be guided directly by any finite set of programs. Almost all that is necessary for the development of the discussed system could be derived from these statements.
(1. the term “behavior” is describes all that is happening with the system under influence of it’s own internal causes. For example, speech, mind, perceiving, feeling at al. are kinds of behavior.)
Here is an analogy: Consciousness:Cells as Culture:Population So consciousness is a culture formed by the interaction of all the cells in a human. 72.209.71.249 03:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)ME:)
And I say, Consciousness is our true identity, it is who and what we truly are. You are Consciousness. You are the eternal witness, the only aspect of Creation that never change. The mind is only a tool for us (Consciousness). With it (mind) we can imagine, with it we may experience anything, whatever we choose. We have six senses, smell, taste, sight, touch, hearing and the sixth with which we may perceive higher dimensions, energies and beings. With the sixth sense we can perceive beyond the limits of our flesh and behold the True Nature of Reality. / Minoya 18:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
This section is about the description and location of phenomenal consciousness, not the "nature" of consciousness. Another section is needed for the latter.
The assertion about Descartes' description of conscious experience in this article has been challenged, references for this assertion are given below and an extended discussion can be found in the archive.
References for Descartes' description of phenomenal consciousness as things laid out in space and time and viewed from a point:
Reid has a similar concept of a point, unextended soul/mind looking at things:
".. I take it for granted, upon the testimony of common sense, that my mind is a substance-that is, a permanent subject of thought; and my reason convinces me that it is an unextended and invisible substance; and hence I infer that there cannot be in it anything that resembles extension" Reid, T. (1764). An Inquiry into the Human Mind on the Principles of Common Sense. Edited by Brookes, Derek. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1997.
"It is therefore acknowledged by this philosopher to be a natural instinct or prepossession, a universal and primary opinion of all men, a primary instinct of nature, that the objects which we immediately perceive by our senses are not images in our minds, but external objects, and that their existence is independent of us and our perception." (Thomas Reid Essays, 14)"
Plato has a similar concept:
"And do you not know also that although they make use of the visible forms and reason about them, they are thinking not of these, but of the ideals which they resemble; not of the figures which they draw, but of the absolute square and the absolute diameter, and so on -- the forms which they draw or make, and which have shadows and reflections in water of their own, are converted by them into images, but they are really seeking to behold the things themselves, which can only be seen with the eye of the mind?"(The Republic)
As have many other philosophers... loxley 09:27, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't like this part: "Evidence from parapsychology of psychokinesis or telepathy, if substantiatied, might support the theory that the location of consciousness is not confined to the brain." Why would telepathy, if substantiated, support this? Also, it seems that telepathy is given too much credit here. Any Ideas on how to reword this?
After mulling this over for a while, I've made a few changes to correct for POV. The most obvious change is that I removed an entire section entitled "Consciousness - My Guessplanation", because it contained nothing relevant to the article. A personal view of consciousness is POV by definition, and a "guessplanation" clearly constitutes research by the auhtor. Frankly, I'm surprised that this section wasn't cut out earlier.
The other changes, aside from some grammar and such, were focused on removing \very clear bias towards the Chalmers school. I toned down apparent endorsements and made reference to views that differ from his. The issue is genuinely controversial, so we must remain NPOV.
As always, I'm wide open to suggestions for corrections, further research and so on. Alienus 07:25, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
As I've pointed out already, Dennett defines qualia the same way everyone else does. Where he differs from people like Chalmers is that he argues against their existence. Now, if you want to support your claim that Dennett has some alternate definition, then I'll be glad to listen. In the absence of support from verifiable sources, I cannot distinguish your changes from simple POV.
Speaking of POV, it's terribly dishonest to accuse me of what you are guilty of. Wherever you touch down, you erase or slander Dennett's ideas. Sometimes the damage is from ignorance, as you really do not have a solid understanding of his stance, but often the changes seem to serve no purpose but to make him look bad. This is embarassing for you, and I'm at the point where I'm going to have to give up repeating myself and instead take this to a higher authority. Alienus 12:35, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
<Commenting on the phrase in Turing Test--Alan Turing proposed what is now known as the Turing test to determine if a computer could simulate human conversation undetectably. This test is commonly cited in discussion of artificial intelligence. See Chinese room.>
From
Joseph E. LeDoux The Emotional Brain: the Mysterious Underpinnings of Emotional Life; 1996; ISBN:
0684836599; p.281.
Yesselman 22:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
-- Furrypig 01:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Yesselman confuses complexity of cognition with the actuality of consciousness. The more complex computers become only increases the sophistication (speed and algorithims) of physical processes. However, it is clear that qualia are purely "out of the dark" and personally observable, unlike a bunch of electrons bouncing around on silicon.
I noticed some debate over Dennett's position on qualia. I'm not very sure about it myself, and the fact that I disagree with Dennett doesn't make it easy for me to understand his view fairly. But I've always understood that he basically believed qualia didn't exist. According to this website [1]: "But, Dennett says, let's be clear: there are no such things as qualia". That seems to coincide with how I've come to understand Dennett, i.e. he's a physicalist.
Loxley, do you have a reference to show "Dennett maintains that qualia exist in terms of judgements or beliefs"?
My guess (and I've never read much directly written by him) is that he believes that qualia do not exist, but that we've somehow fooled ourselves by confusing judgements and beliefs with qualia. Aaron McDaid ( talk - contribs) 13:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
continuation of Loxley's comment...
Alienus has a standard technique of reverting any changes in an article to his own version then writing on the comment "(Opponent) stop edit warring now" or similar. This is done so that arbitrators/mediators will accuse the other party of edit warring!
Notice that Alienus has simply reverted my last edit entirely. I am not going to change the text now but would be very grateful if another editor of this article could examine the issue.
The last edit by Alienus was 19:09 1/2/06. loxley 09:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Alienus has just reverted again without any discussion. Just the comment that the quote about phenomenal consciousness by Dennett was "worthless". This quote is from a philosopher who is difficult to label and explains his idea of phenomenal consciousness in his own words. It is essential for clarifying the debate. loxley 12:36, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Identical subjects. Lapaz 04:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, in an article, there should be a balance between the complexity of an article and the simplicity of an article. Please admit with me that in order to comprehend this article, one would have to be a material expert of the philosophy of the mind and it's consciousness, or at least possess a great ammount of intelligence, in addition to knowledge. This article is not balanced in this virtual scale. It is deeply tipped toward complexity, and while it might offer more information than if it were simpler, it is very hard to comprehend. I believe this is a problem, and while I cannot quote any wikipedia policy, I believe something should be changed, or perhaps a summary be given. Granted it would be very hard to summarize the article into something that would be easier to understand...
Opinions? GofG ||| Contribs 01:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I think a possible solution is a newspaper-style long article. This works in the following way: the first paragraph / few lines of each section give a basic overview of the content that will be covered, explaining the principles, concepts and ideas that will be explained. The article then effectivly starts over again, but including a greater level of detail in order to expand to the level of complexity appreciated by experianced psychologists. This way, a user can start off reading a paragraph and stop reading once the talk gets to a level he/she is unable to understand, whilst still having gained a basic grounding in the idea/principle/theory.
silvarbullet1 ||| Contribs 10:50pm, 14 May 2006 GMT
I recently reverted some text by 209.135.109.15, which came uncited and looked like it was a rehash of popularizations of QM consciousness. Unfortunately, 209.135.109.15 seems to be new to Wikipedia and doesn't know how to deal with disagreement, so they've edit-warred to get their text kept. I am instead asking that they come here and discuss what I object to about it so that we can come to some consensus. Alienus 07:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
Yet another artical on an infinitely vast and endlessly controversial topic which I will have to rescue from edit wars and other nonsense (if I ever have the time and health/energy)? Ok...I can't look it over just now. First criticism: there are a lot of refernces but the article is badly referenced. For some clue on the meaning of this enigmatic assertion, please see my FA philosophy of mind or Katyn Forest by Pronconcsul Piotr (17 FAs!!!). Second problem: does not confrom to WP:LEAD. Third: get rid of the navigation thingie on the bottom (this is just a question of personal taste, but I think it's clutering. No offense to anyone intended.-- Lacatosias 07:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
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Hi, can anyone tell me what is so wrong with the 2-paragraph text I want to add, and why it shouldn't be presented on wikipedia, since it is more than relevant to the subject of consciousness:
"According to some recent theories like infomysticism, technognosticism, involving also quantum physics, regarding quants as 'messenger particles' (carriers of information, so quantum non-locality/teleportation is simply a matter of 'resetting a value'), and all the physical universe is based on underlying information (bits of some 'nature's binary code', more basic than even vibration) - consciousness is understood as a symbiosis (interaction) of Mind and Information. Mind (or soul) is, as manifestation of the essence, non-physical, and Mind (on any level in pantheistic aspect) emanates from The Spirit (the totality of manifestable essence). Mind is a 'driver', and the associated organic form (material body) is its 'vehicle' (for this physical world). And the morphic field of the mind's past (a complex abstract/energetic form) is the 'baggage' of an individual. Morphic fields (term introduced by Rupert Sheldrake) are the universal database of experience.
Consciousness, as the interaction of mind/soul (essence) and information (quantum energy and information from morphic fields/hyperplanes) is what a complete living self is (driver + vehicle + baggage). The 'modern gnostic prophet' Philip K. Dick defined a person in Gnosis, as a symbiosis of Mind and Information, considering heightened consciousness as achieved Gnosis/insight, necessary for the self-realization and salvation from Demiurge's Hysterema (world of imperfection and suffering). Self-realization through Gnosis would mean that (high) consciousness gets preserved after physical death somehow (and 'vehicle' successfully transformed from matter into 'pure energy')."
Ndru01
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I did notice some minor mistakes in expression and made changes. Also, through google easily references can be found to Erik Davis or Steve Mizrach. Also I mentioned Rupert Sheldrake (leading scientist in the field of telepathy and extended mind today with revolutionary theory of morphic fields (Formative Causation)), and additional reference (some might find it very useful) to Philip K Dick. So nothing is 'hidden'... Maybe I should have mentioned David Bohm as well, but he is referenced in this article anyways: http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/techgnosis.html (comes through google with search 'infomysticism' among the first ones, and the one that is the most complete of the links that return with a search). And I mentioned Bohm under my addition to 'Demon' entry, that is also for some reason for someone problematic to be presented...
greetings Ndru01
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Ok, some different organizing of text might be indeed a better solution... Just, speaking of using words, I have to say that Rupert Sheldrake is pure strict science. For a rational objective mind, even Darwin is more 'parapsychology' than Sheldrake (since Sheldrake's explanation of evolution is more complete than Darwin's, coming 'on top of it'), or some Dawkins with his unbelievable 'selfish genes' certainly more 'parapsychology' than Sheldrake... Term '(today's) alternative science' although also unfortunate is however much better than 'parapsi'...
greetings, Ndru01
ps. Ok, I agree my text to be where you put it now... Thx.
_________________________
It was recently suggested (by Dawkins, the somewhat opponent of Sheldrake, but obviously interested in subject of telepathy himself) to, regarding telepathy, change its categorization from paranormal to perinormal, and this, as I understood, is now under consideration by the scientific community. This would mean the soon telepathy won't be anymore under 'parapsychology' as well, but under 'peri-psychology', or 'peri-science' or whatever...
greetings, Ndru01
Whoever put the cleanup tag on this article has a good point. I think a lot of the article should be shifted to Awareness. Especially the bits about:
The way the article is going it will end up with "Political consciousness" and "fashion consciousness" as subheadings! All these things are Awareness, not the phenomenon of consciousness. Even Dennett's ideas are really about awareness and spoil the article as a feature about the phenomenon of consciousness itself ie: I am conscious and I am also conscious OF x - being conscious OF x is awareness. Machines can be aware.
See http://www.iep.utm.edu/c/consciou.htm#SSH4b.i
Some of the confusion may be due to linguistic problems, for instance in Russian the word "consciousness" has overtones of social knowledge. See http://psycprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00000239/
Robinhw 00:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
...needs some cleanup. Techgnosticism gets 33 googlehits — non-notable. Infomysticism, 74 googlehits. Original research. — goethean ॐ 19:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry if some emails are being automatically sent, but that is simply not my fault... I would very much like to turn off that automatic thing if it is possible, so please advice how to turn it off... Alternative science maybe needs some minor 'cleanup', but please let it stay as a section. And I don't see the relevance of how many google hits something gets to the subject itself, the hits are just a measure of popularity and not of the real value of something.
Ndru01 11:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Why was alternative science again deleted? I agree that 'spamming' is something wrong, but editing something many times with very minor edits in order to perfect the text cannot be anything wrong, but the opposite Ndru01 11:57, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
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Yes, I know that, and I never sent any unsolicited emails to anyone. So I really don't know what did Lacatosias mean when he said "spamming my email adress to death", I was equally surprised as you.
Ndru01
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If word 'science' is so disputable, then my text certainly should be allowed to go under 'Modern Mysticism', whatever logic and intepratation of words you may try to impose.
Sincere bestwishes, Ndru01 14:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
ps. I still don't know what you mean by unsolicited email. If you mean my editing the article shortly before I officially registered, I apologize for that, but I didn't understand that is such a big crime, otherwise it shouldn't be allowed in the first place (anonimous editing). So I am not a liar, I didn't lie about anything.
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Either Alienus or Latacosias deleted my text again. It wasn't under Alternative Science anymore, but under Modern Mysticism. Can they please explain why can't it remain as Modern Mysticism, since it is certainly relevant to the subject and is undoubtedly Modern Mysticism (if it is not Alternative Science):
According to some recent theories like Infomysticism and TechGnosticism that base themselves on quantum physics represented in work of David Bohm and others (that regard quanta as 'messenger particles', i.e. carriers of information, with the result that quantum teleportation based on quantum nonlocality is simply a matter of 'resetting a value'), and have many roots in some very old philosophical and religious systems, dating to Plato, and even ancient civilizations (since Gnosticism can be traced back to ancient times), combined with today's Information Science, all of the physical universe is based on underlying information (nature's binary code) more basic than even vibration (any two non-physical values as 0 and 1), so matter itself is (en)coded ('bits' of) information in this 'program'. On this view, consciousness is understood as a symbiosis of mind and information. Mind (or soul) is, as a manifestation of the essence, non-physical, and mind emanates from the Spirit (the manifestable essence). Mind is a 'driver', having an associated organic form (material body) as its 'vehicle', and this manifests through any level in pantheistic hierarchy/ holarchy, either a mind/soul of a single cell (with very primitive, elemental consciousness), a human or animal mind/soul (with consciousness on a level of organic synergy of an individual human/animal), or a (superior) mind/soul with synergetically extremely complex/sophisticated consciousness of whole galaxies involving all sub-levels. On the other hand, the morphic field of the mind's past is the 'baggage' of an individual (on the synergetic level of an organism with brain, since using existing and generating new abstract forms is only possible with a brain). Thoughts are elemental abstract forms/objects. More complex abstract forms/objects are - skills, sciences, languages etc., and abstract forms are energetically real, as material forms are real ( telekinesis, moving material objects/forms with thoughts, is a direct proof of that). Past is a complex abstract/energetic form/object consisting of all the thoughts, experiences and memories of that mind through its physical lifetime (its ' Akashic Record'). Morphic fields (a term introduced by Rupert Sheldrake) are the universal database of experience (Dr Dejan Rakovic interprets these fields actually as hyperplanes, and uses a term isomorphism instead of morphic resonance, but the basic concept is almost the same as Sheldrake's). The morphic field/hyperplane of a form contains the actual data relevant for that form. All organic (living) and abstract (brain-generated/used) forms have their associated morphic fields, and they 'store' their related data both privately (individually) and collectively (in a one collective morphic field for those similar forms), which is a concept very similar to classes in object-oriented programming languages. Inorganic (lifeless) forms have no morphic fields. Akashic Records, term used in Vedas are only a subset of this universal database of all-connected morphic fields.
So, Consciousness, as the interaction of Mind (essence, the 'driver') and Information (quantum energy and information from morphic fields/hyperplanes) is what a complete living self is ('driver' + 'vehicle' + 'baggage' = consciousness).
Interesting to note is that the famous science-fiction writer Philip K. Dick (the 'modern gnostic prophet') defined a homoplasmate, a person 'in Gnosis', as a symbiosis of mind and information (similarly to the mentioned theories), considering heightened consciousness as achieved Gnosis (or insight), necessary for the self-realization and salvation from the Demiurge's hysterema (world of imperfection and suffering). Self-realization through Gnosis, if true, would mean that higher consciousness gets preserved after physical death somehow (and the 'vehicle' would be successfully transformed from matter into 'pure energy').
Ndru01 02:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I though it said to use Ndru01 07:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC) or only Ndru01 . But ok, I'll put this time that hyperlinked as you said.
The text quality maybe isn't perfect, but it is however not low at all, it is made very understandable as much as possible, since the content is extremely complex. And because it involves many different things, I don't know what exactly to cite, since I cannot have 10 or 15 cites in that text. And why is it so necessary that my text have any cites, when of some 15 sections only 3 have cites, and the rest none. Plus through google, search: infomysticism gives the text (Infomysticism, Technosis and War against entropy) that is itself as whole better than citing something from it. I can mention Steve Mizrach (the author of that text), or Erik Davis, the author of books on Techgnosis. Ok, I'll put these 2 names now in a bracket in the first sentence after words Infomysticism and Technosticim, I should have done that in the first place. By OR I suppose you probably meant the dual expressions, like mind/soul, field/hyperplane, hierarchy/holarhy, human/animal, form/object, abstract/energetic, complex/sophisticated and generated/used. Well, what's wrong with them? Some people do like them, incl myself, and hold that they have more explanatory potential and make the understanding easier, not more complicated. This text actually somehow requires these expressions, since it needs to combine and merge things, the whole aspect is on merging and presenting the merged result, which in fact happens to revolves around consciousness, our subject. Of these expressions, maybe only complex/sophisticated wasn't quite right, that one should have been AND, not OR (/), but ok, I'll correct that too. The rest was all there for a valid reason, since they appeared first as single in some context, but later, the new context needed them together.
greetings, <Ndru01>Ndru01 07:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC)</Ndru01>
ps, didn't work the signature, let's try again differently Ndru01Ndru01 07:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
but what exactly is unintelligible in the text? Ndru01
ps. Ok I reduced the text now significantly, 9-10 rows are deleted from the end of the 1st paragrapsh, since that text can be found following the link to morphic fields, and can be however omitted here. I do try to be cooperative, as much as possible...
greetins Ndru01 16:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Will you please stop deleting the text whoever is doing that. It is now reduced and improved, so it should stay as it is.
Ndru01 22:00, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone have a reference for the definition "quality"? as referring to consciousness? DanielDemaret 21:00, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Of course, one must note that,just as in German there is no word for mind, in Italian there is realy NO WORD for conscsiouness. Coscienza is used to indicate both conscience and consciousness.-- Lacatosias 10:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps one could start out with something like this to list all the different meanings, and list one or two references in brackets for each meaning?:
Consciousness. Meanings include:
DanielDemaret 14:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Or possibly a disambiguation page? Or a nifty little coloured table in a box to the right? DanielDemaret 14:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Consciousness is a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment. It is a subject of much research in philosophy of mind, psychology, neurology, and cognitive science.
Some philosophers divide consciousness into phenomenal consciousness, which is experience itself, and access consciousness, which is the processing of the things in experience (Block 2004). Phenomenal consciousness is the state of being conscious, such as when we say "I am conscious" and access consciousness is being conscious of something, such as when we say I am conscious of these words. The following articles discuss various forms of access consciousness:
This article is mainly about phenomenal consciousness.
Many cultures and religious traditions place the seat of consciousness in a soul separate from the body. In contrast, many scientists and philosophers consider consciousness to be intimately linked to the neural functioning of the brain, dictating the way by which the world is experienced.
Humans (and often other animals, as well) are variously said to possess consciousness, self-awareness, and a mind that contains our sensations, perceptions, dreams, lucid dreams, inner speech and imagination etc. Each of us has a subjective view. There are many debates about the extent to which the mind constructs or experiences the outer world, the passage of time, and free will.
An understanding of necessary preconditions for consciousness in the human brain may allow us to address important ethical questions. For instance, to what extent are non-human animals conscious? At what point in fetal development does consciousness begin? Can machines ever achieve conscious states? These issues are of great interest to those concerned with the ethical treatment of other beings, be they animals, fetuses, or in the future, machines.
In common parlance, consciousness denotes being awake and responsive to one's environment; this contrasts with being asleep or being in a coma. The term 'level of consciousness' denotes how consciousness seems to vary during anesthesia and during various states of mind, such as day dreaming, lucid dreaming, imagining, etc. Nonconsciousness exists when consciousness is not present. There is speculation, especially among religious groups, that consciousness may exist after death or before birth.
Robinhw 15:14, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
The new intro is too long. It references itself. The bulleted list is ugly and gratuitous. — goethean ॐ 15:04, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Ok, it was indeed still long. Now it is finally reasonable length, since I didn't really need that part about quantum nonlocality, and the explanation that Gnosticism dates back to ancient times (instead just 'ancient Gnostics'):
Modern Gnosticism
According to some recent theories like TechGnosticism ( Erik Davis), Infomysticism [ [6]], that base themselves on quantum physics (regarding quanta as “messenger particles”, i.e. carriers of information) and have many roots in old philosophies dating back to Plato and the ancient ( Gnostics), combined with Digital Philosophy and today's Information Science - all of the physical universe is based on underlying information (nature's binary code, with two non-physical values for 0 and 1), so matter itself, as well as the abstract forms/objects, is just encoded ('bits' of) information in this 'program'. On this view, consciousness is understood as a symbiosis of Mind and Information. Mind (or soul) is, as a manifestation of the essence, non-physical, and mind emanates from the Spirit (the manifestable essence). Mind is a 'driver', having an associated organic form (material body) as its 'vehicle', and this manifests through any level in pantheistic holarchy, either a mind/soul of a single cell (with very primitive, elemental consciousness), a human or animal mind/soul (with consciousness on a level of organic synergy of an individual human or animal), or a (superior) mind/soul with synergetically extremely complex and sophisticated consciousness of whole galaxies involving all sub-levels. On the other hand, the morphic field of the mind's past is the 'baggage' of an individual (on the synergetic level of an organism with brain, since using existing and generating new abstract forms is only possible with a brain). Abstract forms same as organic forms have their associated morphic fields. Past is a complex abstract/energetic form, consisting of all the thoughts, experiences and memories of that mind through its physical lifetime, its 'Akashic Record' ( Akashic Records, term used in Vedas are only a subset of this universal database of all-connected morphic fields).
So, Consciousness, as the interaction of Mind (essence, the 'driver') and Information (quantum energy, the 'vehicle' + information from morphic fields/hyperplanes, the 'baggage') is what a complete living self is (Mind + Information = Consciousness).
Interesting to note is that the famous science-fiction writer Philip K. Dick (the 'modern gnostic prophet') defined a homoplasmate, a person 'in Gnosis', as a symbiosis of mind and information (similarly to the mentioned theories), considering heightened consciousness as achieved Gnosis (or insight), necessary for the self-realization and salvation from the Demiurge's hysterema (world of imperfection and suffering). Self-realization through Gnosis, if true, would mean that higher consciousness gets preserved after physical death somehow (and the 'vehicle' would be successfully transformed from matter into 'pure energy').
So please, don't delete it now! Thanks, Ndru01 15:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
How many concepts of consciousness and cults are there out there? Having a section for each one in the consciousness article would be absurd. The section on Modern Gnosticism should be transferred out to Modern Gnosticism. Otherwise we will have to allow a section for every type of yogic practice, every religion, marxism, humanism, scientology, every new age practice and philosophy, all mystical pursuits from orphism through cabalism to rosicrucianism........ The consciousness article is an overview. Surely it should point to these other articles but not contain them. Can we have a vote below on whether or not the section should be included here. Robinhw 15:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
---Yes---
---No---
Is the number of conscious beings that can exist at one point in time infinit? If so there must be an infinit number of potential identities. Common wisdom tells us that nothing is infinit. This problem can therefore be solved if only one identity exists. If so we are all the same person living different lives.
This forumala although disturbing, solves many problems. (My english is not very good) Firstly, the number of possible beings that can exist at a point in time is only limited by the amount of space and matter available. If there is infinit space and matter available than an infinit number of beings can exist. If every being has a different identity then there must be something infinit that distinguishes all of them. Not only is infinity unattractive, there is no known physical mechanism to distinguish beings. For instance lets look at a classic problem involving quantum mechanics. We now know that in the future we will be able to make exact replications of objects through teleportation. Inorder to teleport an object it first has to be destroyed. Suppose we destroy a human then recreate him/her elsewhere. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. The problem arises when we destroy a human being and then recreate him/her in two or more locations. There will be no physical difference between the two humans yet you are saying they have different identities. Furthermore, which human is original identity? Even more troubling is that we are constantly being teleportated by natural means since motion is quantized. Why are we the same identity if we are teleported as one being, but different identities when we are teleported as two or more beings.
Secondly, there have been new breakthroughs in physics over the past decades. Entanglement is the instant communication between objects no matter the distance. Physics can only conclude that physical distance is not required for information to travel from one point to another. Furthermore, the study of black holes has led us to believe that we might be living in a two-dimensional universe. This has been named "Holographic Principle." Photons simply give the impression of higher dimensional space (recent issue Scientific American). If that is the case, this would solve your multiplicity issue. In addition the "Many Worlds Theory" could use simplifying. The theory attempts to explain quantum theory but requires dopplegangers. (google Many Worlds Theory)
Thirdly, how would you distinguish yourself from someone else. You can't! All you can do is say you have a different perspective, personality, etc. The problem is all these things rely on the brain which is physical. You cannot distinguish consciousness. You could be anyone and anyone could be you.
Fourthly, think about the following. What is the difference between being unborn or dead. There is no difference because you are not living in either case. Perhaps we occupy other lives before and after life. If so, this would not make any sense according to current notions.
The notion that only one identity exists solves all the above problems. You can question if there is only one identity, why are you so lucky to be alive. Well perhaps there are more identities outside our universe. According to string theory our universe is a single brane floating in an ocean of other brains. Current views regarding the mind seem impossible and are left unanswered. My formula answers many questions and simplifies the theory of the mind.
Encyclopdeias render the unkown in terms of the known. "Conciousness" is is neither the known - or the unkown - but the knowing. Dictoinaries define words, so there should be just a list of links to the the mainstream (or significant) religions, and any research based science articles that may exist - nothing else at all.
Let's assume people know the meaning of this fairly everyday word and point them to some stuff they haven't seen, but exits (i.e. churches and experiments ect.) 86.135.97.90 04:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
No offence or anything, but the article kind of lacks a good, clean definition of "consciousness." One definition I've run into is "consciousness = awareness" and human consciousness = awareness that one is actually aware". Terryeo 04:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
There is some activity on thought that might interest people who contribute to this article. Alienus 04:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh, yes. Alienus 07:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I rv the deletion of the part on Locke. While it can certainly be discussed, I think that the talk subsection here entitled "Identical identities" clearly show that Locke has addressed this kind of problem. Lapaz 01:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
This practice is deprecated. Font's should be sized either on personal preferences, or by using the .references-small { font-size: 90%;} class. See the extensive discussion -- Blainster 21:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Could the voice in my head be considered consciousness, and worth mentioning? For example, when I do math, or try to make something I'm about to say more tactful, I use spoken words in my head to see how it sounds first. Sometimes I will even agree with myself and ask myself questions, and then answer them. Perhaps this article already mentions it in an obsure technical way, and therefore I missed it. However, if that is the case, I have a belief that laymen's terms never hurt anyone. Or maybe this falls under thought?
I added two weasel tags because there are many parts of the article, especially those two sections, which contain phrases that are too vague to describe the sources. Some examples:
-- Hcx0331 03:45, 26 Jul 2006
How about "Consciousness" derives from Latin conscientia which primarily means moral conscience - if that is not a Tautology then what is it? -- 134.184.67.185 11:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
May i add a section of levels of awereness? something like this:"Levels of consciousness"
-Not aware (Sub-conscious) -Weak awareness (Phenomenal consciousness) -Self-awareness -awareness of ones existense -awareness of ones observation -awareness of ones calculation -awareness of ones psychological aspects
I just need some help to complete the list and to make it more representative to reality.. Ressonans 00:32, 18 aug 2006 (GMT)
I have ceased using the term "consciousness" because it no longer "stands for" the awareness aspect of Spirituality. For my own use, I now use the term Apapsyche: apas (sanskrit work,working) + psyche (Greek self,soul, and mind} = Operational Energy of the Soul. The tendency and inclintion of those who have not personally visited the Esoteric within themselves is to perceive of "consciousness" as something that one can "think" about, and apply like paint to any difficult to esplain phenomenon.
In other words, part of the defintion of "consciousness" it seems to me, is that the term is first and foremost an "abstract term". It "stands for" a reality that cannot be known intellectually [by one brain and thinking], and can only be known experientially. One must be in an altered state of awareness in order to perceive the reality of "consciousness". Short of that, one may reference it by its abstrat label, that of "consciousness".... but it should be made abundantly clear that, what the abstrat term stands for may not be known by ones brain and thinking.
It seems to me that the thrust of what is developing is an attempt to push "consciousness" into the MIND, and this would be an error. Consciousnes is a dimension of ones Spirituality, and is also of a permanent and absolute nature, wereas the MIND is not permanent, in an absolute ssense, and it is not part of the Spiritual realm. Indeed, in Eastern mysticism it is explained that it is Spiritual energy that sustains the operations of the MIND. ______________________ Docjp 15:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
And then I looked at this article and change my mind. It's a mortal sin!!-- Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 15:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
First, I notive that the introduction to the article really doesn't state what consciousness is. I took the liberty of adding a sentence which I think is an okay summary of the general attitudes towards consciousness––that it denotes an overall or general level of awareness that pervades and serves as the backdrop for specific mental operations, etc. I think that what is meant by consciousness is really something like this (and perhaps it could be phrased better), as a sort of constant state of awareness.
I think it would be nice to see someone add in a little about Ryle's take on consciousness. Ryle is, in my thought, a very underappreciated philosopher who is really quite significant. He wrote the seminal text on consciousness and mind in ordinary language philosophy. Perhaps I could add a little once I go back and read over what I have been reading. Ryle provides several arguments against consciousness, but I think it is quite alright, and perhaps necessary, to present a linguistic take on consciousness. Of course, I haven't read the entire article so this may have been done already.
Another significant aspect of Ryle's critique of consciousness, and very interesting and notable for the purposes of this article, is his overview of the various common language uses of the term in contrast with the philosophical usage. It is quite enlightening. If no one else here has read Ryle, or is willing to contribute, then, with permission, I would be willing to add some of this stuff in myself some weekend. Drifter 02:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I do not wish, however, to get into questions of definition. I myself am somewhat of a Wittgensteinian and so you may easily guess my position on definitions. However, consciousness, as the subject of this article, is used in a peculiar way by academics as opposed to how it is used in ordinary language. As such, we cannot make appeal to arguments such as "anyone should be able to intuit what we mean by consciousness." It is, though, an entirely valid response to say that different thinkers have different conceptions of consciousness. The purpose of the article, it seems (I have not read it all), is to convey these varied and many times dissimilar conceptions. However, is there no common thread that permeates these?
In the end, the main point is that the openning paragraphs are entirely inadequate and provide little information. Even if taken purely as introductory, I think that they classify as weak. If my definition of phenomenal consciousness offends you or at all seems wrong, I will refrain from editing the article any further and merely hope that someone will please revise the opening to be more clear and satisfactory as an introduction/summary of the rest of the article. Drifter 06:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
With all the man did in the esoteric study of cultivating active consciousness in humans, can he be fit somewhere in this article? Or perhaps that mention belongs in self-awareness. DragonGuyver 00:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
There is no reference at all to Judeo-Christian view of conscience in this article although vague and less than defined description of oriental "altered states of conscience" (an incitation to drug use?) are proposed as the "spiritual approach" to it. This discards 5000 years of thinking on the subject. So much for a would be Encyclopedia.
An addition to this paragraph referencing the words brought down to the Hebrews by Moses as being a statement of personal conciousness, has been lately erased ...
EXODUS 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
This article winds up with no reference at all to any Judeo-Christian view upon consciousness - IMHO : very little of a comprehensive and tolerant view, don't you think?
Re the sentence: "There is speculation, especially among religious groups, and maybe some evidence, that consciousness may exist after death or before birth.
I read (skimmed) the article to find a pointer to that evidence or more discussion on those points and found none. Maybe it should be marked with "citation needed" or similar?
Rhkramer 23:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
An external link pointing to a free podcast on the iTunes store (no advertising) of a new book presenting a philosophical introduction to Awareness that is being syndicated as it goes to print was added and then removed as SPAM. If anyone is interested in having the podcast added as an external link, the information is:
I removed the following section from the article following the cleanup necessary to save retrocausality from AFD. Chris King does not appear to be recognized in the scientific community. I question whether the sourcing meets WP:RS. In general, I have reservations about the appropriateness of this content to the article, but I'm open to discussion and further sourcing (from better sources) if someone wants to go to bat for it. Serpent's Choice 07:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Free will and consciousness
Chris King in the article Chaos, Quantum-transactions and Consciousness (2003), starts from Einstein’s energy-momentum relation ( retrocausality and supercausality), and states that all quantum objects are constantly faced with bifurcations which force the system to operate choices. King quotes Eccles, Penrose and Hameroff who proved the existence of quantum structures in living systems and arrives to the conclusion that life is moved not only by mechanical causes but also by final causes (attractors). According to King, a new and innovative description of the relation between mind and brain derives from this constant state of choice in which living structures are immersed. This constant state of choice would force living systems into a state of free will which would be common to all the levels and structures of life, from molecules to macrostructures, and organisms. This constant state of free will, would originate chaotic dynamics which organize in fractal structures. Starting from these premises King suggests two separate levels of explanation of consciousness. In the first level, information flows from the mind to the brain, through free will; in the second level, information flows from the brain to the mind, thanks to the selection and amplification of signals performed by fractal structures. King’s considers mind to be immaterial, and its organization would be the consequence of the cohesive properties of –E ( syntropy). King suggests that, in order to understand what consciousness really is, it is necessary to start from free will, because at this level it becomes necessary to definitely refuse any attempt to use mechanical approaches ( http://www.sintropia.it/english/2006-eng-3.htm).
I made some small changes yesterday, with regard to the distinction between access and phenomenal consciousness. They were deleted. I am new to Wikipedia, and don't know the right procedures. But it is clear that the article as it stands is quite right wrong. Access consciousness, for instance, is defined "as the processing of the thing itself in experience". But subjects needn't be phenomenally conscious - ie, experience - anything of which they are also access conscious. And processing is not sufficient for access consciousness: it is availability for global processing that is needed.
Is there a good word for the combination of waking sensorium, imagination, memory being recalled, and sleep dreams? In other words, consciousness + dreaming? 216.179.3.247 17:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)