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Of course everyone is entittled to a view on any subject. But describing a subject as an item in an encyclopedia is something different from discussing the content of an item and the validity of a --ism. Not agreeing on connectivism is not a reason for deleting an item on connectivism. 16:35, 6 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaapB ( talk • contribs)
Jaap, I am not so sure. See my comments at the bottom of this page. I think the threshold requirements for a statement "x is a theory of ..." need to be stringent enough to exclude 'connectivism' from being a valid entry on wikipedia. On the other hand, I can see no reason why 'connectivism' should not be a valid entry as a framework, concept, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dustcube ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Theory is a system of ideas intended to explain something, such as a single or collection of fact(s), event(s), or phenomen(a)(on). Typically, a theory is developed through the use of contemplative and rational forms of abstract and generalized thinking. Furthermore, a theory is often based on general principles that are independent of the thing being explained. Depending on the context, the results might for example include generalized explanations of how nature works. The word has its roots in ancient Greek, but in modern use it has taken on several different related meanings. A theory is not the same as an hypothesis. A theory provides an explanatory framework for some observation, and from the assumptions of the explanation follows a number of possible hypotheses that can be tested in order to provide support for, or challenge, the theory. I believe connectivism is still just an hypothesis. any discussion? 174.99.59.109 ( talk) 19:03, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
I came here hoping to learn what Connectivism was, after getting bogged down in some turgid prose at a site devoted to connectivism. Someone there was trying to explain the big idea in Connectivism by rambling around talking about several other things, then providing a list of incomprehensible paragraphs to illustrate the core concepts.
What on earth is this???
I was going to point to the Constructivism article as an example of a clear explanation, but I see that it too, has been overwhelmed by turgid prose. Is this a new sort of attack on Wikipedia?
I must admit that I do most of my writin on a corporate wikimedia site where brevity and plain English are encourages, and prior to that I contributed a lot to the OLPC wiki, where we had the luxury of providing an overview of a topic and then referring to Wikipedia. So maybe I'm a little bit too immersed in the simple prose and plain English. Nevertheless, I believe that this article has gone too far towards incomprehensibility. -- Wavetossed ( talk) 15:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I was taking a more polite approach, but yes, Connectivism is a Hoax. An affair ala Sokal (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair) except that Sokal did it as an experiment.
Connectivism is nothing new. Activity theory had been introduced long ago that covers all the aspect of social learning. The concept of network of connections is directly borrowed from Connectionism, a paradigm in cognitive sciences that sees mental or behavioral phenomena as the emergent processes of interconnected networks
As far as I know, it was never published in a refereed journal.
(1) Connectivism doesn't make any new or original contribution to learning. Learning is defined as "Process by which knowledge is acquired." If you take Downes, he claims in different places that he believes that knowledge is not constructed. Cf "The committee felt that my PhD would be better spent in an investigation of mental content - something I had denied in the paper even existed! - rather than this fool's errand." ( http://halfanhour.blogspot.com/2009/03/tnp-20-years-on.html) and "Hence, in connectivism, there is no real concept of transferring knowledge, making knowledge, or building knowledge." ( http://halfanhour.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-connectivism-is.html). As a cognitive psychologist, I can tell you that You cannot have a theory of learning phrased in these terms. What you have is a theory of absence of learning. If you take Siemens, the word learning is used repeatedly. It is stated that learning takes place. However, (a) the process is never described in details: learning (undefined) happens (undefined) as a join a social network, with no evidence of any kind provided to establish that yes, learning happens. In that context, it is has to be taken as a personal belief of Siemens, nothing more. (b) he often uses learning inappropriately (when knowledge should be used instead). He uses the word learning without having defined it and outside of the meaning traditionally given in that literature.
(2) Connectivism doesn't make any new or original contribution pedagogy. As education practitioners they were expected to present a theory of instructional design instead of a theory of learning. A theory of how instruction can be designed and presented to lead or increase learning. But there is no guideline of any kind provided. More importantly, they phrased their theory in a way that explicitly rejects the notion of accountability and evaluation. There is no way to know whether this method of instruction is efficient or not. They say that growth (undefined) takes place. However this entirely depends on the participants. If you take MOOC. They provide a video. They set up a forum. That's it. There is no real pedagogy involved. If you take that model, then any blog writer can claim to be an instructional theorist
It is not clear that Downes is an academic. His about page says that he works for the "National Research Council of Canada". He didn't get a PhD. Siemens' about page states that he is currently "affiliated" with the Technology Enhanced Knowledge Research Institute (TEKRI). That doesn't make him an academic. I didn't see "Dr" or "Professor" anywhere on the page. That's another problem. People tend to give them a lot more credentials than they really have. They name themselves theorists and everybody assumes that they are qualified. Not necessarily.
That Downes or Siemens are practitioners doesn't make them de facto experts or even able practitioners. They have 2000+ participants at the start of their course. The Farmville phenomenon indicates that there is a need for connectedness and they unambiguously sell connectedness. They however have huge numbers of drop outs. It is not clear how many students attend till the end. I followed one of these courses (LCK). I found it to be of very poor quality. I personally don't consider it to be instruction. I am certainly not learning anything from Siemens half-baked ideas that fail to give any justice to the current state of knowledge on analytics. Worse, I am highly uncomfortable as to its content, the same as the one of the paper. Ignore decades of research and propose what is nothing but speculations as the latest findings in the area, preferably to people who lack the knowledge and background to know better. Sect/cult would probably be a better name to qualify the way it runs than course.
That Downes or Siemens are practitioners doesn't make them de facto able theorists. They have truckloads of blogposts but if you check their publications, no refereed paper on theoretical issues. That they are practitioners doesn't give them a de facto respectability. I personally find that the way they behave, as practitioners is really quite appalling. They don't see the value of conducting research and to give any representation of the excellent work done by other before them.
The connectivism paper was written published in Educause 2005. Long before that, Social learning had already been covered in some depth: See (black-listed link), Social Development Theory (Vygotsky), Communities of Practice (Lave and Wenger), Social Learning Theory (Bandura). You can probably also consider Situated Learning Theory (Lave), that "posits that learning is unintentional and situated within authentic activity, context, and culture". (link black-listed). See also: http://www.nwlink.com/%7Edonclark/hrd/media/social_learning.html for pre 2005 references to social learning.
They seem to think that their own. highly speculative, ideas expressed with so little clarity are so much more important than the ones that had been introduced much more ably before. They wrote a paper "sans queue ni tête" (non-sensical in English) and is full of unwarranted and largely uninformed claims (cf "Connectivism is the integration of principles explored by chaos, network, and complexity and self-organization theories" there is no "integration" chaos is thrown in as a buzz word without any attempt for integration).
"One person's jargon is another's specialised language after all". English is not my first language. Apologizes if I sometimes use words that don't exactly capture the intended meaning. Wikipedia tells me that in English, a better word is "buzzword". My background is connectionism, I am familiar with Chaos. When I use the word "jargon" in reference to their description of either, what I really mean is that they throw in words, out of context, without proper representation of what these theories entail. They throw in words and suggest that they explain things perfectly. However they don't explain in any way. They apply theories develop at one level of analysis to a completely different level and don't even realize it may matter. There is a video that does a good job explaining the issue of levels of analysis: Link removed.
I'd like to echo Snowded's comments. If you think its unsupported, nominate it for deletion. http://www.irrodl.org/index.php/irrodl/article/viewArticle/523/1103%22 Here is a perfectly good article that brings up some of the points that you make from what I hope you will accept is a respectable journal. The fact that the theory is contentious makes it A THEORY. That's what we do with theories... we argue about them. There are 1500 entries for the word connectivism in google scholar... and if we assume that 90% of them are blog posts, that leaves 150 articles from journals talking about connectivism. If we were to delete every wikipedia post that had been disproven or that you didn't like or agree with, it would stop being an encyclopedia. -- Davecormier ( talk) 16:07, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
I support keeping the article and improving it. Here is my argument:
I have removed the 'suggest for deletion' as per wikipedia policy which claims that i can remove it 'if i have 'any' objection. I have several objections to its deletion.
We are cycling back to the same issue. It is not Smurf's or anyone else's job or right to judge the validity of Connectivism. This is done in academic journals and in other publications of record. What you are doing in this talk page is 'new research'. If you object to connectivism (also please note that connectionism and connectivism are not synonymous) please write an article, and get it published. The only problem is... that in publishing that article, you would be further supporting the inclusion of Connectivism in wikipedia. I encourage you, once again, to note the paleo-diet entry. Many, many scientists say its nonsense. It may be. But that doesn't matter.
Other notes:
If as Snowded says the criticism needs quoted reliable third party sources who criticise, then this discussion is coming at a good time when (over)due is a Special Issue of IRRODL see http://www.connectivism.ca/?p=254 so there should be additional sources to inform the wikipedia entry. I know that this special issue contains some critical papers as I wrote one of them. My argument in this paper is that Connectivism is not a learning theory (as Verhagen and Kop & Hill have argued) but a phenomenon that comprises different activities (such the MOOCs, seminars, blogs, etc.), ideas and networks of people and things. I compared connectivism with Actor Network Theory a descriptive theory of change with which it has superficial similarities in a conference paper this year Bell paper. -- Francesbell ( talk) 15:59, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
This debate is instructive. But more so about wikipedia, and the threshold, or boundaries of what 'is' and what is not appropriate for wikipedia than about learning (unfortunately). Connectivism is a useful description of a social phenomenon - it pulls together things like crowd sourcing, networked learning, distributed learning, etc. But it is not a theory of learning, maybe a framework for conducting, designing, or even managing learning, but a theory of learning, no.
So ...
Surely wikipedia includes useful (yes) and new descriptions of social phenomena? In which case, the more interesting debate is whether connectivism can be defined much more broadly than just 'learning' - so it might be useful to talk of a 'connectivist society', or a 'connectivist social/ political/ 'revolutionary' movement'. This might or might not include activities which are centred around 'learning'.
However ... If the wikipedia entry takes the form of "x is a theory", then the criteria are more rigorous, so why not change the wikipedia entry to: "Connectivism. Connectivism is a concept that describes a set of social activities which are characterised by a, b an c"? Its the theoretical aspirations (unwarranted and unjustified in my view) that stick in the craw, and muddy the water in an otherwise very interesting debate about how we can describe what's going on out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dustcube ( talk • contribs) 10:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
References
The high drop-out rate of the Connectivism and Connective Knowledge course and others like it is being used as an argument against keeping the connectivism article as part of wikipedia. First the course is free and open -- there is no commitment required. Personally, I'm taking the course on a "best efforts basis". Second, the course material and activities are set out as a smorgasbord, participants can participate as they are able. Further, the underlying structure of the course encourages building connections allowing the participant to experience the connectivist process. Personally, I usually view the recordings of the presenters and weekly review. Consequently, I am not counted as a participant. Given that I haven't figured out or taken the time learn how to use the moodle forum replacement, I'm not likely to be counted.
Concerning the theory itself, I have problems with it. I don't think building a network equates to learning. Somehow a connection needs to be polled for the information residing there. I don't understand how that happens. However, I have learned a lot about learning theory and have been entertained by the discussions. I think the purpose of a theory: valid, coherent, reasonable, original, or not is to promote discussion and thought. The connectivist theory does that and is worthy of being a part of wikipedia. Ljpother ( talk) 21:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Anyone interested in improving the "connectivism" section on a related article on peer learning that I've been working on? It's currently pretty minimal. I know there's considerable discussion about research in e.g. Coursera that talks about how people help each other learn in the course: but I don't know specifics. Arided ( talk) 21:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I see most posts on this Talk page are debating the validity of maintaining the "Connectivism" WP page. Under the assumption that it will at least be here for awhile, it seems the Lede Section could be improved. Dustcube's note about "turgid prose" is well-taken...the article needs to give background and context that goes beyond linking to other theories (that may be unfamiliar to most). I will try to add onto this area. Graphemie ( talk) 02:39, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
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Of course everyone is entittled to a view on any subject. But describing a subject as an item in an encyclopedia is something different from discussing the content of an item and the validity of a --ism. Not agreeing on connectivism is not a reason for deleting an item on connectivism. 16:35, 6 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaapB ( talk • contribs)
Jaap, I am not so sure. See my comments at the bottom of this page. I think the threshold requirements for a statement "x is a theory of ..." need to be stringent enough to exclude 'connectivism' from being a valid entry on wikipedia. On the other hand, I can see no reason why 'connectivism' should not be a valid entry as a framework, concept, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dustcube ( talk • contribs) 19:13, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Theory is a system of ideas intended to explain something, such as a single or collection of fact(s), event(s), or phenomen(a)(on). Typically, a theory is developed through the use of contemplative and rational forms of abstract and generalized thinking. Furthermore, a theory is often based on general principles that are independent of the thing being explained. Depending on the context, the results might for example include generalized explanations of how nature works. The word has its roots in ancient Greek, but in modern use it has taken on several different related meanings. A theory is not the same as an hypothesis. A theory provides an explanatory framework for some observation, and from the assumptions of the explanation follows a number of possible hypotheses that can be tested in order to provide support for, or challenge, the theory. I believe connectivism is still just an hypothesis. any discussion? 174.99.59.109 ( talk) 19:03, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
I came here hoping to learn what Connectivism was, after getting bogged down in some turgid prose at a site devoted to connectivism. Someone there was trying to explain the big idea in Connectivism by rambling around talking about several other things, then providing a list of incomprehensible paragraphs to illustrate the core concepts.
What on earth is this???
I was going to point to the Constructivism article as an example of a clear explanation, but I see that it too, has been overwhelmed by turgid prose. Is this a new sort of attack on Wikipedia?
I must admit that I do most of my writin on a corporate wikimedia site where brevity and plain English are encourages, and prior to that I contributed a lot to the OLPC wiki, where we had the luxury of providing an overview of a topic and then referring to Wikipedia. So maybe I'm a little bit too immersed in the simple prose and plain English. Nevertheless, I believe that this article has gone too far towards incomprehensibility. -- Wavetossed ( talk) 15:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I was taking a more polite approach, but yes, Connectivism is a Hoax. An affair ala Sokal (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair) except that Sokal did it as an experiment.
Connectivism is nothing new. Activity theory had been introduced long ago that covers all the aspect of social learning. The concept of network of connections is directly borrowed from Connectionism, a paradigm in cognitive sciences that sees mental or behavioral phenomena as the emergent processes of interconnected networks
As far as I know, it was never published in a refereed journal.
(1) Connectivism doesn't make any new or original contribution to learning. Learning is defined as "Process by which knowledge is acquired." If you take Downes, he claims in different places that he believes that knowledge is not constructed. Cf "The committee felt that my PhD would be better spent in an investigation of mental content - something I had denied in the paper even existed! - rather than this fool's errand." ( http://halfanhour.blogspot.com/2009/03/tnp-20-years-on.html) and "Hence, in connectivism, there is no real concept of transferring knowledge, making knowledge, or building knowledge." ( http://halfanhour.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-connectivism-is.html). As a cognitive psychologist, I can tell you that You cannot have a theory of learning phrased in these terms. What you have is a theory of absence of learning. If you take Siemens, the word learning is used repeatedly. It is stated that learning takes place. However, (a) the process is never described in details: learning (undefined) happens (undefined) as a join a social network, with no evidence of any kind provided to establish that yes, learning happens. In that context, it is has to be taken as a personal belief of Siemens, nothing more. (b) he often uses learning inappropriately (when knowledge should be used instead). He uses the word learning without having defined it and outside of the meaning traditionally given in that literature.
(2) Connectivism doesn't make any new or original contribution pedagogy. As education practitioners they were expected to present a theory of instructional design instead of a theory of learning. A theory of how instruction can be designed and presented to lead or increase learning. But there is no guideline of any kind provided. More importantly, they phrased their theory in a way that explicitly rejects the notion of accountability and evaluation. There is no way to know whether this method of instruction is efficient or not. They say that growth (undefined) takes place. However this entirely depends on the participants. If you take MOOC. They provide a video. They set up a forum. That's it. There is no real pedagogy involved. If you take that model, then any blog writer can claim to be an instructional theorist
It is not clear that Downes is an academic. His about page says that he works for the "National Research Council of Canada". He didn't get a PhD. Siemens' about page states that he is currently "affiliated" with the Technology Enhanced Knowledge Research Institute (TEKRI). That doesn't make him an academic. I didn't see "Dr" or "Professor" anywhere on the page. That's another problem. People tend to give them a lot more credentials than they really have. They name themselves theorists and everybody assumes that they are qualified. Not necessarily.
That Downes or Siemens are practitioners doesn't make them de facto experts or even able practitioners. They have 2000+ participants at the start of their course. The Farmville phenomenon indicates that there is a need for connectedness and they unambiguously sell connectedness. They however have huge numbers of drop outs. It is not clear how many students attend till the end. I followed one of these courses (LCK). I found it to be of very poor quality. I personally don't consider it to be instruction. I am certainly not learning anything from Siemens half-baked ideas that fail to give any justice to the current state of knowledge on analytics. Worse, I am highly uncomfortable as to its content, the same as the one of the paper. Ignore decades of research and propose what is nothing but speculations as the latest findings in the area, preferably to people who lack the knowledge and background to know better. Sect/cult would probably be a better name to qualify the way it runs than course.
That Downes or Siemens are practitioners doesn't make them de facto able theorists. They have truckloads of blogposts but if you check their publications, no refereed paper on theoretical issues. That they are practitioners doesn't give them a de facto respectability. I personally find that the way they behave, as practitioners is really quite appalling. They don't see the value of conducting research and to give any representation of the excellent work done by other before them.
The connectivism paper was written published in Educause 2005. Long before that, Social learning had already been covered in some depth: See (black-listed link), Social Development Theory (Vygotsky), Communities of Practice (Lave and Wenger), Social Learning Theory (Bandura). You can probably also consider Situated Learning Theory (Lave), that "posits that learning is unintentional and situated within authentic activity, context, and culture". (link black-listed). See also: http://www.nwlink.com/%7Edonclark/hrd/media/social_learning.html for pre 2005 references to social learning.
They seem to think that their own. highly speculative, ideas expressed with so little clarity are so much more important than the ones that had been introduced much more ably before. They wrote a paper "sans queue ni tête" (non-sensical in English) and is full of unwarranted and largely uninformed claims (cf "Connectivism is the integration of principles explored by chaos, network, and complexity and self-organization theories" there is no "integration" chaos is thrown in as a buzz word without any attempt for integration).
"One person's jargon is another's specialised language after all". English is not my first language. Apologizes if I sometimes use words that don't exactly capture the intended meaning. Wikipedia tells me that in English, a better word is "buzzword". My background is connectionism, I am familiar with Chaos. When I use the word "jargon" in reference to their description of either, what I really mean is that they throw in words, out of context, without proper representation of what these theories entail. They throw in words and suggest that they explain things perfectly. However they don't explain in any way. They apply theories develop at one level of analysis to a completely different level and don't even realize it may matter. There is a video that does a good job explaining the issue of levels of analysis: Link removed.
I'd like to echo Snowded's comments. If you think its unsupported, nominate it for deletion. http://www.irrodl.org/index.php/irrodl/article/viewArticle/523/1103%22 Here is a perfectly good article that brings up some of the points that you make from what I hope you will accept is a respectable journal. The fact that the theory is contentious makes it A THEORY. That's what we do with theories... we argue about them. There are 1500 entries for the word connectivism in google scholar... and if we assume that 90% of them are blog posts, that leaves 150 articles from journals talking about connectivism. If we were to delete every wikipedia post that had been disproven or that you didn't like or agree with, it would stop being an encyclopedia. -- Davecormier ( talk) 16:07, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
I support keeping the article and improving it. Here is my argument:
I have removed the 'suggest for deletion' as per wikipedia policy which claims that i can remove it 'if i have 'any' objection. I have several objections to its deletion.
We are cycling back to the same issue. It is not Smurf's or anyone else's job or right to judge the validity of Connectivism. This is done in academic journals and in other publications of record. What you are doing in this talk page is 'new research'. If you object to connectivism (also please note that connectionism and connectivism are not synonymous) please write an article, and get it published. The only problem is... that in publishing that article, you would be further supporting the inclusion of Connectivism in wikipedia. I encourage you, once again, to note the paleo-diet entry. Many, many scientists say its nonsense. It may be. But that doesn't matter.
Other notes:
If as Snowded says the criticism needs quoted reliable third party sources who criticise, then this discussion is coming at a good time when (over)due is a Special Issue of IRRODL see http://www.connectivism.ca/?p=254 so there should be additional sources to inform the wikipedia entry. I know that this special issue contains some critical papers as I wrote one of them. My argument in this paper is that Connectivism is not a learning theory (as Verhagen and Kop & Hill have argued) but a phenomenon that comprises different activities (such the MOOCs, seminars, blogs, etc.), ideas and networks of people and things. I compared connectivism with Actor Network Theory a descriptive theory of change with which it has superficial similarities in a conference paper this year Bell paper. -- Francesbell ( talk) 15:59, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
This debate is instructive. But more so about wikipedia, and the threshold, or boundaries of what 'is' and what is not appropriate for wikipedia than about learning (unfortunately). Connectivism is a useful description of a social phenomenon - it pulls together things like crowd sourcing, networked learning, distributed learning, etc. But it is not a theory of learning, maybe a framework for conducting, designing, or even managing learning, but a theory of learning, no.
So ...
Surely wikipedia includes useful (yes) and new descriptions of social phenomena? In which case, the more interesting debate is whether connectivism can be defined much more broadly than just 'learning' - so it might be useful to talk of a 'connectivist society', or a 'connectivist social/ political/ 'revolutionary' movement'. This might or might not include activities which are centred around 'learning'.
However ... If the wikipedia entry takes the form of "x is a theory", then the criteria are more rigorous, so why not change the wikipedia entry to: "Connectivism. Connectivism is a concept that describes a set of social activities which are characterised by a, b an c"? Its the theoretical aspirations (unwarranted and unjustified in my view) that stick in the craw, and muddy the water in an otherwise very interesting debate about how we can describe what's going on out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dustcube ( talk • contribs) 10:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
References
The high drop-out rate of the Connectivism and Connective Knowledge course and others like it is being used as an argument against keeping the connectivism article as part of wikipedia. First the course is free and open -- there is no commitment required. Personally, I'm taking the course on a "best efforts basis". Second, the course material and activities are set out as a smorgasbord, participants can participate as they are able. Further, the underlying structure of the course encourages building connections allowing the participant to experience the connectivist process. Personally, I usually view the recordings of the presenters and weekly review. Consequently, I am not counted as a participant. Given that I haven't figured out or taken the time learn how to use the moodle forum replacement, I'm not likely to be counted.
Concerning the theory itself, I have problems with it. I don't think building a network equates to learning. Somehow a connection needs to be polled for the information residing there. I don't understand how that happens. However, I have learned a lot about learning theory and have been entertained by the discussions. I think the purpose of a theory: valid, coherent, reasonable, original, or not is to promote discussion and thought. The connectivist theory does that and is worthy of being a part of wikipedia. Ljpother ( talk) 21:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Anyone interested in improving the "connectivism" section on a related article on peer learning that I've been working on? It's currently pretty minimal. I know there's considerable discussion about research in e.g. Coursera that talks about how people help each other learn in the course: but I don't know specifics. Arided ( talk) 21:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I see most posts on this Talk page are debating the validity of maintaining the "Connectivism" WP page. Under the assumption that it will at least be here for awhile, it seems the Lede Section could be improved. Dustcube's note about "turgid prose" is well-taken...the article needs to give background and context that goes beyond linking to other theories (that may be unfamiliar to most). I will try to add onto this area. Graphemie ( talk) 02:39, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
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