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Archive 1 |
I came across this because of a conflict over Andrew Dickson White. It seems to me that this article is very emotional and NPOV; historical thought is not even attempted to be understood and placed in context, but is judged on the basis of a few recent (and, after all, also not particularly 'canonical') works; the language is polemic rather than scholarly as well. Too bad, really, because the substance is not wrong. Perhaps someone detached can look at and edit this. Clossius 08:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes it was, and he of course was a very Germanized scholar; all his serious studies were done there, his academic-administrative merits are mostly in the adaption of the German university model for the US (Cornell, Stanford, Johns Hopkins etc.), and he was in close contact with the leading German historians of his time. And I think the Warfare is a very German book indeed - a dash late, perhaps, but still not out of place at this time.
To keep this exchange simpler I will just copy from above:
To me they are not dismissive. I used the phrase "popular works" deliberately, keeping in mind Cooter & Pumphrey's contrast between "science popularization" and "popular science." I tend to agree with their general point that what a lot of people do and think about science has nothing to do with what the "experts" think; if it does bear some relation, then popular use of the "expert's" work may be quite creative. A parallel with the study of history was in the back of my mind, and I take that nonspecialist audience quite seriously. But if it sounds dismissive and patronizing to you, it could strike other readers the same way.
I do feel a bit frustrated with the whole exchange, because you have criticized the sources mentioned and given me the impression that you think there are better ones, but refuse to name any. Maestlin 20:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Going back to Adrian Baker's comments, I agree that the explanation of the conflict thesis itself does need to be expanded. The article hasn't really gotten past Draper and White (I guess those are the two authors referred to), because we have been trying to hammer out the best way to talk about White. A list of all major conflicts between science and religion over the past 400 years would require us to define, first of all, what qualifies as a "conflict." A representative (not comprehensive) sample of incidents associated with the conflict thesis would, I think, be appropriate and would help the article. A few more examples of modern-day conflict (or perceived conflict) like the creationism debate might be added to the "support" section. I hope that everyone here agrees that conflict really does happen sometimes....
I have no problem keeping the wording to "many historians of science and related academics no longer accept the conflict thesis" or something similar. I think it is a reasonable approximation of reality, and it would allow us to move on to creating real content for the article. Anyone interested can always revisit the issue down the road. Maestlin 19:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
The warfare thesis is a good start but I think it can be beefed up. It's fascinating for at least two reasons. It's still widely accepted by the general public though overwhelmingly rejected by historians of science since probably the 1950s who now view the works by founders White and Draper as historical mythologies. And despite being almost laughable to history scholars (such as when a fictional novel is used as a historical reference), those works continue to have a strong influence in skeptic circles. Carl Sagan, for example, can be seen quoting White in COSMOS. There are lots of sources available about this.
The epistemological thesis sounds too apologist. It's claims should be footnoted more thoroughly and it should have some discussion of its proponents and important texts on the subject. Professor marginalia 00:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Who is Collin A. Russell, and why does he get to decide that "most contemporary historians of science now reject [the historical conflict thesis]"? Is he a notable and reliable expert in the field? – Fatalis 17:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I can't find:
Here is the original:
Here is my dumbed down version:
Also:
It was added by anon 152.19.192.202 [1]
T ( talk) 13:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I placed a POV tag on the section about contemporary popular views, because I think the section is essentially an argument claiming that popular views are incorrect, without a meaningful description of what those views are. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
It does seem fairly accurate to say that many Masons have promoted the idea that religion and science are totally incompatible and utterly irreconcilable. In the conflict thesis, Catholicism is singled out as incompatible with science, while Islam, Judaism and Protestantism are not. When you read the thesis, the debate on Religion vs. Science almost plays out in the same way as Catholicism vs. Freemasonry, just like in a Dan Brown novel. ADM ( talk) 02:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Stephen Jay Gould is not a science historian. Travb ( talk) 02:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I do not believe that the Walsh quote should be in this article. There is a clear bias in his work, seeing as it is dedicated to the Pope. While his point may still be valid, I think another quote, if able to be found, would work better. Cheapy ( talk) 01:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Surprised to see no mention of Ludwig Feuerbach in this article... is that an omission, do you think? Andrewa ( talk) 04:07, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
This article, along with the article on Andrew Dickson White, repeatedly suggests that modern historians of science do not agree with the Conflict Thesis any longer.
"The historical conflict thesis... in its early form is mostly discarded." "...founded entirely on mistaken notions." "...growing recognition among historians of science that the relationship of religion and science has been much more positive than is sometimes thought."
Those suggestions are not at all supported by any material, let alone discussion, in the article. I'll suggest mere denigration of the CT and the repeated supposition of its displacement is not adequate. What discussion supports the position of 'modern historians' (WHO? WHAT? WHERE?)? If the CT is indeed to be a clay pigeon, the authors are using shells with no shot!!
If science and religion have become as cosy as this article suggests -- but does not show -- perhaps it's because "modern science" -- fat with grants and hyperexpensive toys and no longer fighting for survival as it did in the 19th century (contrary to this sophomoric thesis) -- has become as conservative, dogmatic, heterodox as religion. No? Pray, tell. Or step down.
Twang (
talk)
18:13, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
To even call this a "thesis" is ridiculous. The proof is irrefutable, and all one has to do is actually read the work of White to obtain an extremely thorough, 700-page map of the evidence. It is a common practice of religious apologists to try and undermine facts and evidence by labeling them with terms that imply equivocality, such as "hypothesis" or "thesis." Nonetheless, religion has proven itself a consistent foe of science, as we continue to see in modern-day debates over stem-cell research and the teaching of evolution. This notion is maintained in the "popular view" because there is no sustainable argument against it.
Whoever has been editing/monitoring this page has an evident agenda; however, it is one that supports White's conclusions. 75.70.99.101 ( talk) 01:25, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/arnold/works.html Biblical works are near the bottom. 205.170.134.65 ( talk) 17:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
As for me, I don't own a copy of White's book, and have no comment to make on its weaknesses or its strengths. I notice, however, that the article as it stands quotes extensively from White's critics, but not from White himself. Why not? Surely if White is noteworthy enough for old and new criticisms of him to be presented in such detail, then a reasonably detailed presention of his actual views on this topic, containing quotes from him, would be appropriate. Kalidasa 777 ( talk) 00:11, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Cut from intro:
I was going to {fact}-tag this, until I realized that neither the popularity nor the Enlightenment origins are mentioned in the article body. I assume therefore that there is no evidence for either, or I'd ask for it.
We might want to provide a little more about the motivation of those advancing the conflict thesis - or perhaps give examples of evidence they provided. This would provide a splendid contrast with critiques of those examples, and would help explain to readers why the conflict thesis is no longer accepted by (Western?) scholars.
But if it still has modern adherents, who are these people if not scholars? I'm constantly hearing from various sources that the Medieval Christians opposed the scientific method and "that's why they believed" the flat earth idea. I spent a lot of time developing our Myth of the flat earth article, and I think I have shown that hardly any modern scholar or historian accepts the centuries-old canard that Medieval Christians believed in a flat earth; this is not WP:OR on my part, but rather showing a balanced and neutral view of what modern scholarship says: opponents of Christianity simply made it up (this is the modern consensus). -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 15:02, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
This article along with all the other pseudo-science "flat earth myth" articles are absolute garbage. Putting this in a Encyclopedia is a sad joke. Classic deny the deniers attacks. Galileo and Darwin were welcomed and helped by the Church, lol, please... Lipsquid ( talk) 06:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
I removed the criticism of the conflict thesis from the lead. There are many leading scientific minds who do believe that the conflict thesis is alive and well. This article in and of itself is a pretty good example. It is fairly one sided with only the view that the conflict thesis is debunked, which it isn't. 50% of all Americans say Religion and science are often in conflict so by definition, the idea that it is debunked is UNDUE and probably FRINGE http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/10/22/science-and-religion/ Lipsquid ( talk) 22:31, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Concerning the recent edit [2], it is not really vandalism, nor did I say such a thing. However, the lead should contain some points from the article including the fact that the consensus of historians of science is that the conflict thesis has been discredited by modern research and emergence of more scientific primary sources. Considering that this article quite involved in the history of science and religion and the conflict thesis was proposed in the 19th century only to be discredited in the 20th century is notable.
Even the majority of scientists in elite universities in the US do not hold a conflict view. [3] Mayan1990 ( talk) 22:27, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Please http://www.forbes.com/asap/1999/1004/235_print.html http://sas-space.sas.ac.uk/1100/1/J_Worrall_Science.pdf http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-science/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/religion-and-science-_b_2719280.html Lipsquid ( talk) 22:55, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
I was going to, I started from the top and got reverted. I will try a bottom up approach and change the lead at the end. This article is garbage in its current state. Lipsquid ( talk) 23:19, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Neo-creationism /info/en/?search=Creation%E2%80%93evolution_controversy /info/en/?search=Young_Earth_creationism
It seems that much of this discussion has less to do with the historiographical thesis of the historical conflict between science and religion than it does with the discussion of the relationships between science and religion. Much of the material raised here could be profitably dealt with in that article.
A useful perspective would be to discuss the views of the two main groups advocating an essential conflict between science and religion, the New Atheists of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, et al. and the fundamentalist christian view exemplified by the Intelligent design movement. These two advocacy groups seem to represetnt highly influential fringe movements within the broader scientific and religious communities.-- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 16:16, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Lipsquid: said that you understand the difference between serious historians and fundamentalist Chritians but are disturbed that "most of the article quotes fundamentalist Christians." There lies the problem. I read through the list of 34 references and found only 2 or 3 of the sources cited were by authors that could, by some stretch of the imagination, be identified as "fundamentalist Christians while most of them were by mainstream historians of science.
If you think fundamentalist Christians are being excessively quoted, would you please tell us who among those quoted you perceive to be fundamentalist Christians. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 22:16, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
I recently restored the phrase that the conflict thesis "is a historiographical approach in the history of science". The concept that it is a historiographical approach has been present in the article from the earliest versions until this edit in May 2012. The concept that it is a historiographical interpretation was deleted in an edit that addressed the question whether this interpretation had been popular since the Enlightenment. Since it appears to have been an inadvertant deletion, I have restored it to clarify the original focus of this article.
Discussions of the modern relations of science and religion are, as I mentioned above, more appropriate to the article Relationship between religion and science. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 23:13, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I came across this because of a conflict over Andrew Dickson White. It seems to me that this article is very emotional and NPOV; historical thought is not even attempted to be understood and placed in context, but is judged on the basis of a few recent (and, after all, also not particularly 'canonical') works; the language is polemic rather than scholarly as well. Too bad, really, because the substance is not wrong. Perhaps someone detached can look at and edit this. Clossius 08:22, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Yes it was, and he of course was a very Germanized scholar; all his serious studies were done there, his academic-administrative merits are mostly in the adaption of the German university model for the US (Cornell, Stanford, Johns Hopkins etc.), and he was in close contact with the leading German historians of his time. And I think the Warfare is a very German book indeed - a dash late, perhaps, but still not out of place at this time.
To keep this exchange simpler I will just copy from above:
To me they are not dismissive. I used the phrase "popular works" deliberately, keeping in mind Cooter & Pumphrey's contrast between "science popularization" and "popular science." I tend to agree with their general point that what a lot of people do and think about science has nothing to do with what the "experts" think; if it does bear some relation, then popular use of the "expert's" work may be quite creative. A parallel with the study of history was in the back of my mind, and I take that nonspecialist audience quite seriously. But if it sounds dismissive and patronizing to you, it could strike other readers the same way.
I do feel a bit frustrated with the whole exchange, because you have criticized the sources mentioned and given me the impression that you think there are better ones, but refuse to name any. Maestlin 20:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Going back to Adrian Baker's comments, I agree that the explanation of the conflict thesis itself does need to be expanded. The article hasn't really gotten past Draper and White (I guess those are the two authors referred to), because we have been trying to hammer out the best way to talk about White. A list of all major conflicts between science and religion over the past 400 years would require us to define, first of all, what qualifies as a "conflict." A representative (not comprehensive) sample of incidents associated with the conflict thesis would, I think, be appropriate and would help the article. A few more examples of modern-day conflict (or perceived conflict) like the creationism debate might be added to the "support" section. I hope that everyone here agrees that conflict really does happen sometimes....
I have no problem keeping the wording to "many historians of science and related academics no longer accept the conflict thesis" or something similar. I think it is a reasonable approximation of reality, and it would allow us to move on to creating real content for the article. Anyone interested can always revisit the issue down the road. Maestlin 19:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
The warfare thesis is a good start but I think it can be beefed up. It's fascinating for at least two reasons. It's still widely accepted by the general public though overwhelmingly rejected by historians of science since probably the 1950s who now view the works by founders White and Draper as historical mythologies. And despite being almost laughable to history scholars (such as when a fictional novel is used as a historical reference), those works continue to have a strong influence in skeptic circles. Carl Sagan, for example, can be seen quoting White in COSMOS. There are lots of sources available about this.
The epistemological thesis sounds too apologist. It's claims should be footnoted more thoroughly and it should have some discussion of its proponents and important texts on the subject. Professor marginalia 00:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Who is Collin A. Russell, and why does he get to decide that "most contemporary historians of science now reject [the historical conflict thesis]"? Is he a notable and reliable expert in the field? – Fatalis 17:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I can't find:
Here is the original:
Here is my dumbed down version:
Also:
It was added by anon 152.19.192.202 [1]
T ( talk) 13:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I placed a POV tag on the section about contemporary popular views, because I think the section is essentially an argument claiming that popular views are incorrect, without a meaningful description of what those views are. -- Tryptofish ( talk) 22:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
It does seem fairly accurate to say that many Masons have promoted the idea that religion and science are totally incompatible and utterly irreconcilable. In the conflict thesis, Catholicism is singled out as incompatible with science, while Islam, Judaism and Protestantism are not. When you read the thesis, the debate on Religion vs. Science almost plays out in the same way as Catholicism vs. Freemasonry, just like in a Dan Brown novel. ADM ( talk) 02:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
Stephen Jay Gould is not a science historian. Travb ( talk) 02:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I do not believe that the Walsh quote should be in this article. There is a clear bias in his work, seeing as it is dedicated to the Pope. While his point may still be valid, I think another quote, if able to be found, would work better. Cheapy ( talk) 01:13, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Surprised to see no mention of Ludwig Feuerbach in this article... is that an omission, do you think? Andrewa ( talk) 04:07, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
This article, along with the article on Andrew Dickson White, repeatedly suggests that modern historians of science do not agree with the Conflict Thesis any longer.
"The historical conflict thesis... in its early form is mostly discarded." "...founded entirely on mistaken notions." "...growing recognition among historians of science that the relationship of religion and science has been much more positive than is sometimes thought."
Those suggestions are not at all supported by any material, let alone discussion, in the article. I'll suggest mere denigration of the CT and the repeated supposition of its displacement is not adequate. What discussion supports the position of 'modern historians' (WHO? WHAT? WHERE?)? If the CT is indeed to be a clay pigeon, the authors are using shells with no shot!!
If science and religion have become as cosy as this article suggests -- but does not show -- perhaps it's because "modern science" -- fat with grants and hyperexpensive toys and no longer fighting for survival as it did in the 19th century (contrary to this sophomoric thesis) -- has become as conservative, dogmatic, heterodox as religion. No? Pray, tell. Or step down.
Twang (
talk)
18:13, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
To even call this a "thesis" is ridiculous. The proof is irrefutable, and all one has to do is actually read the work of White to obtain an extremely thorough, 700-page map of the evidence. It is a common practice of religious apologists to try and undermine facts and evidence by labeling them with terms that imply equivocality, such as "hypothesis" or "thesis." Nonetheless, religion has proven itself a consistent foe of science, as we continue to see in modern-day debates over stem-cell research and the teaching of evolution. This notion is maintained in the "popular view" because there is no sustainable argument against it.
Whoever has been editing/monitoring this page has an evident agenda; however, it is one that supports White's conclusions. 75.70.99.101 ( talk) 01:25, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/arnold/works.html Biblical works are near the bottom. 205.170.134.65 ( talk) 17:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
As for me, I don't own a copy of White's book, and have no comment to make on its weaknesses or its strengths. I notice, however, that the article as it stands quotes extensively from White's critics, but not from White himself. Why not? Surely if White is noteworthy enough for old and new criticisms of him to be presented in such detail, then a reasonably detailed presention of his actual views on this topic, containing quotes from him, would be appropriate. Kalidasa 777 ( talk) 00:11, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Cut from intro:
I was going to {fact}-tag this, until I realized that neither the popularity nor the Enlightenment origins are mentioned in the article body. I assume therefore that there is no evidence for either, or I'd ask for it.
We might want to provide a little more about the motivation of those advancing the conflict thesis - or perhaps give examples of evidence they provided. This would provide a splendid contrast with critiques of those examples, and would help explain to readers why the conflict thesis is no longer accepted by (Western?) scholars.
But if it still has modern adherents, who are these people if not scholars? I'm constantly hearing from various sources that the Medieval Christians opposed the scientific method and "that's why they believed" the flat earth idea. I spent a lot of time developing our Myth of the flat earth article, and I think I have shown that hardly any modern scholar or historian accepts the centuries-old canard that Medieval Christians believed in a flat earth; this is not WP:OR on my part, but rather showing a balanced and neutral view of what modern scholarship says: opponents of Christianity simply made it up (this is the modern consensus). -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 15:02, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
This article along with all the other pseudo-science "flat earth myth" articles are absolute garbage. Putting this in a Encyclopedia is a sad joke. Classic deny the deniers attacks. Galileo and Darwin were welcomed and helped by the Church, lol, please... Lipsquid ( talk) 06:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
I removed the criticism of the conflict thesis from the lead. There are many leading scientific minds who do believe that the conflict thesis is alive and well. This article in and of itself is a pretty good example. It is fairly one sided with only the view that the conflict thesis is debunked, which it isn't. 50% of all Americans say Religion and science are often in conflict so by definition, the idea that it is debunked is UNDUE and probably FRINGE http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/10/22/science-and-religion/ Lipsquid ( talk) 22:31, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Concerning the recent edit [2], it is not really vandalism, nor did I say such a thing. However, the lead should contain some points from the article including the fact that the consensus of historians of science is that the conflict thesis has been discredited by modern research and emergence of more scientific primary sources. Considering that this article quite involved in the history of science and religion and the conflict thesis was proposed in the 19th century only to be discredited in the 20th century is notable.
Even the majority of scientists in elite universities in the US do not hold a conflict view. [3] Mayan1990 ( talk) 22:27, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Please http://www.forbes.com/asap/1999/1004/235_print.html http://sas-space.sas.ac.uk/1100/1/J_Worrall_Science.pdf http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-science/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/religion-and-science-_b_2719280.html Lipsquid ( talk) 22:55, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
I was going to, I started from the top and got reverted. I will try a bottom up approach and change the lead at the end. This article is garbage in its current state. Lipsquid ( talk) 23:19, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Neo-creationism /info/en/?search=Creation%E2%80%93evolution_controversy /info/en/?search=Young_Earth_creationism
It seems that much of this discussion has less to do with the historiographical thesis of the historical conflict between science and religion than it does with the discussion of the relationships between science and religion. Much of the material raised here could be profitably dealt with in that article.
A useful perspective would be to discuss the views of the two main groups advocating an essential conflict between science and religion, the New Atheists of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, et al. and the fundamentalist christian view exemplified by the Intelligent design movement. These two advocacy groups seem to represetnt highly influential fringe movements within the broader scientific and religious communities.-- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 16:16, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
@ Lipsquid: said that you understand the difference between serious historians and fundamentalist Chritians but are disturbed that "most of the article quotes fundamentalist Christians." There lies the problem. I read through the list of 34 references and found only 2 or 3 of the sources cited were by authors that could, by some stretch of the imagination, be identified as "fundamentalist Christians while most of them were by mainstream historians of science.
If you think fundamentalist Christians are being excessively quoted, would you please tell us who among those quoted you perceive to be fundamentalist Christians. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 22:16, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
I recently restored the phrase that the conflict thesis "is a historiographical approach in the history of science". The concept that it is a historiographical approach has been present in the article from the earliest versions until this edit in May 2012. The concept that it is a historiographical interpretation was deleted in an edit that addressed the question whether this interpretation had been popular since the Enlightenment. Since it appears to have been an inadvertant deletion, I have restored it to clarify the original focus of this article.
Discussions of the modern relations of science and religion are, as I mentioned above, more appropriate to the article Relationship between religion and science. -- SteveMcCluskey ( talk) 23:13, 28 December 2015 (UTC)