This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
This terminology seems to narrow the scope of the subject as well as add a subtle non-neutral slant to the text. The source used in the lede (on page 8) uses the term "publicly sponsored symbols", which not only more broadly encompasses the different types of entries listed in the second sentence, but also gives the article a more neutral and general tone. I changed it accordingly. Comments or improvements welcome. Edaham ( talk) 03:40, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
We have numerous cites to www.waymarking.com. Looks like a user-generated website, and thus non-RS as a wiki. At the same time the posts have photos of various monuments and memorials, thus confirming the existence of the particular memorial. However, because the non-photographic info is user-generated, I do not think we can use waymarking.com for anything other than the existence of the memorial. Conclusions about "why" the memorial was created do not WP:V the info. – S. Rich ( talk) 22:55, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
This segment is related to this article. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 20:19, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
A discussion about the inclusion of individual CSA graves occurred earlier on this talk page (see
Talk:List of Confederate monuments and memorials#I am concerned about this one (Wyoming)). A consensus was reached that individual CSA graves should not be included in the article. An editor interpreted that to mean that all grave markers should be removed, and made
this enormous delete of all graves, including memorial markers placed near mass graves.
This monument and
this monument are examples of memorials removed in that one edit. In addition, grave markers with unique historical significance were also removed, such as
this photo and accompanying text about the grave of
David Owen Dodd. The input of others regarding this is appreciated.
IMO we've got too much in the article about the pros and cons of keeping or removing monuments. This is a list article. Issues about the removal of monuments (proposed or accomplished) is best done in the removal article. – S. Rich ( talk) 05:08, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Just curious... Fluous - Buchanan served 45 yrs in the US Navy with many notable accomplishments. He only served 4 yrs in the CSS, so why are the 3 ships named after him included in the list of Confederate memorials? I'm not seeing any citations that verify those 3 U.S. Navy destroyers were named for Buchanan's 4 yr. service in the CSS. It seems more likely they were named to honor Buchanan's 45 yrs of service in the US Navy, for his proposal that created the US Naval Academy where he served as the 1st superintendent, for his service in the Mexican-American War, and then as commandant of the Washington Navy Yard? Atsme 📞 📧 01:38, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
That merely inform the visitor that this happened here? http://media-cdn.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2013/10/20/102113B05_House_two_2_cols_color_t800_hc62400425bef6c40a2d5156eeec7abf8f233022a.jpg - Topcat777 23:33, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Kevin, if you're going to edit war over the pov tag can you please explain the pov issue? As far as I'm aware the only issue has been with the graph - what exactly is the concern? Fyddlestix ( talk) 23:19, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, but depending heavily on a single source which also happens to be a self-published website by a group of civil rights attorneys is not a reliable source for this purpose. It is actually a primary source. The sources that are needed here should be history books, or published dedications/honorariums like one would find in a state or national statuary hall, or in old newspapers, or inscribed on a plaque on the memorial itself. See this monument: [ [1]] - it includes the dedication and/or honorarium so it's unquestionable that it belongs here. You cannot include a memorial that was created to honor the birthplace of a notable person, or a single event, or a life's history and include it here as if such a memorial was created to honor the Confederacy or that person's affiliation with it. The people, places and things that were memorialized must be identifiable and verifiable, or they should not be listed here. If such memoriums are included without verifying the reason for the honor, then it's WP:OR, and/or noncompliant with WP:V, or it's WP:SYNTH. For example, there are 3 destroyers, facilities, etc. all named after Buchanan. Where is the verifiable evidence that says any one or all of those memorials/namesakes were named in honor of Buchanan's service in the Confederacy or Confederate whatever? He served 45 years in the US Navy and doesn't belong here unless you can cite a RS that verifies the monuments/memorials were actually Confederate. There are many others in the list that are not verified, which means there's quite a bit of work that still needs to be done. Perhaps you can help by finding the RS that verify the specific dedication/memorial/honorarium. I have requested the expertise of DGG since he is quite familiar with such resources. Atsme 📞 📧 06:20, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
This is more than ridiculous. None of the tags are substantiated. No policy is being applied. No sources are being provided. It's just an obnoxious and tendentious POV pushing and IJUSTDONTLIKEIT tag shaming. Tags are going to be removed unless they can be explained. THAT is policy. Not "what reliable sources say hurts my feelings so I'm going to make this article look like shit out of spite and cry loudly about how you can't remove my disruptive tags". Volunteer Marek 13:47, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
When the Image RFC is closed, tags relating to the image should be removed regardless of outcome. (Either removed along with the image, or removed as a resolved dispute when the image is kept.) I have not followed the other tag disputes closely, however if the image is kept then duplicative tags should also be removed. 'Duplicative tags' means tags placed for reasons that would have (but failed to) remove the image. Alsee ( talk) 15:24, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
The Neutrality of this article has improved somewhat, but it still is not neutral enough. Memorials and Monuments erected in honor of confederacy is just as complex as the issue it was derived from, the history of the American Civil War, if not more so. Unlike the article of Civil War which is written in much better neutral point of view, this one still comes nowhere close to meeting wiki Wikipedia:NPOV policies. There are simply so many reasonings for these, yet most of the article stresses only one point of view and opinion, due to White Supremacy. I agree that is 'one' main point that is big part of it, but it is way overdone and not been kept in neutral manner in accordance with Wikipedia:NPOV. Every expert I have ever read or heard from will say that a majority of these are of Historical nature. Several historians say this, every poll of americans reflects they believe they are mostly of a historical nature. This is not given due WP:Weight in accordance with NPOV policy, it is actually not mentioned at all, merely alluded too. White Supremacy being only one opinion on the other hand takes up the majority giving it Undue Weight. The History section, 1st paragraph mostly talks about when and where, but ends with a dig at Lost Cause per 2 art historians. The inclusion is fine, but it really needs to not be part of 1st paragraph if that is the ONLY thing it is going to list or mention. It should also list other reasons .. or simply be moved to another paragraph. Way it is currently is setting the tone for rest to follow, in an attempt to hi-light one opinion or one main opinion as to why. This is NOT neutral nor abiding by wiki NPOV policy. 2nd paragraph mostly talks about Jim Crow and White Supremacy ... again this is fine to be included. The problem is again giving it undue weight as the majority viewpoint for the Memorials and Monuments should be expressed here, Historical covers the majority of these as even the SPLC has stated. As such to give it proper Weight, Historical is what SHOULD be discussed next, instead it is not even mentioned in history section at all. 3rd paragraph is where it can start talking about other reasons. Instead it re-iterates again more about Jim Crow and White Supremacy. Ending with short one sentence about Beautifying locations. Why even bother including that one sentence after 2 whole paragraphs of Jim Crow and White Supremacy, it just gets lost and disregarded. The inclusion is again fine, but should be elsewhere prolly towards the end ... or maybe put that as end of first paragraph. 4th paragraph mostly brings up organizations mostly funding, which is mostly attributable to driving the White Supremacy cause, so I can fully understand it coming after 2 paragraphs talking about that. Ending with 5th paragraph which talks about 1950's and 60's Memorials is prolly the most neutral of them all, except for the point the one opinion tone was already set in preceding first four paragraphs. We have the same issue regarding the lede, it states one thing but clearly the list involves much more than the lede implies it does. The list actually gives anything and everything associated with, whether it actually is in honor for confederacy or not. That is not worded in a neutral manner or accurately either. The lede needs to be more reflective of what all is included in this list to abide by Neutral policies OR the list needs to only include Memorial and Monuments which are clearly can only be in honor of like lede actually states. Imho the list including more that are associated with is fine allowing readers to make up their own mind, so lede just needs changed to reflect this. Removal section is given proper Weight and NPOV kinda, my problem is this is where more of the controversy over these should be discussed. This is where all those opinions from historians stating these are for White Supremacy and Jim Crow laws should really be mentioned more. The history section above should be more about time periods and how many along with list several of given reasons in short. The Removal section can than greatly enhance all the controversy about them. This last bit though is I admit is just my opinion on only ONE way on how to go about this. As long as it is improved to be more neutral I would not care specifically HOW that is done. The point is Yes one opinion White Supremacy is a big part, but entire article keeps stressing this in an attempt to portray THIS is the only and correct reason over and over again, and THIS is why the article does not abide by wiki NPOV policy the most, it is supposed to be kept neutral for such an encyclopedia source as Wikipedia. Mention sure, even hi-light what some historians have stated, but not make it the repetitive theme of the entire article, when majority of Americans (let alone readers) simply do not agree with that point of view. This is not supposed to be a propaganda piece, its an encyclopedic article. Kevin "Hawk" Fisher ( talk) 10:27, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
After a wiki break, I return, refreshed and wondering what is going on here now, and find that the chart (you know the one) has been changed from (on left)
to this (on right)
. And it seems to me that this was done in the middle of a discussion about the chart, during which time, as I understood it, no changes were to be made. I glanced over the various discussions but found no mention of this change. Can some one point me at the discussion or explain why this change was okay? Carptrash ( talk) 15:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
So, Fyddlestix, as an historian, what is your rational for supporting ending the Jim Crow era at 1940? The era goes from being 25 years long to 45 years long, an increase of what, 40% or more? And this is considered to be minor? Carptrash ( talk) 19:17, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
````
Oddly enough, your labeling of the "Jim Crow era" only includes one of the peaks, now here you are saying that it should include both of them. And now your labeling is "an aesthetic decision". Here I was thinking it was based on sources? What do history Ph.D.s think about that approach? Oh yes, they are now the ones who thinks that Britannica is "an exceptionally low-quality source". Very interesting. 05:01, 12 October 2017 (UTC) Carptrash ( talk)
The point about the Britannica is made right after your last edit, 207.222.59.50 (why don't you sign up and get a name?) and it seems to me that both peaks should fall under the Jim Crow era because it is the end of the Civil Rights era that brings the Jim Crow era to a close. That is one of the main points of the Civil Rights era. Check out the Movie Loving (2016 film), which takes place in, 1967 or something and is about bringing Jim Crow to an end, among things. 1967. That is the end of the JC era, not 1925 or 1930 or 1940 or even 1955. But will this make difference to how you look at this? Maybe? Carptrash ( talk) 22:11, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, mid 1960s would be fine with me. I heard a guy a week ago saying that he was still dealing with the residuals of Jim Crow (2017). To cut it off any earlier than the Civil Rights legislation in the 1950s and 1960s is not good. As for the start, Many folks (Britannica for an easy-to-find example) say "after Reconstruction". It seems to me that the amount of arguing here indicates that we will never agree on the dates so let us take them off. Carptrash ( talk) 17:34, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Take the labels - at least the "Jim Crow era" label off and I'll not oppose the graph. Carptrash ( talk) 06:41, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
This terminology seems to narrow the scope of the subject as well as add a subtle non-neutral slant to the text. The source used in the lede (on page 8) uses the term "publicly sponsored symbols", which not only more broadly encompasses the different types of entries listed in the second sentence, but also gives the article a more neutral and general tone. I changed it accordingly. Comments or improvements welcome. Edaham ( talk) 03:40, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
We have numerous cites to www.waymarking.com. Looks like a user-generated website, and thus non-RS as a wiki. At the same time the posts have photos of various monuments and memorials, thus confirming the existence of the particular memorial. However, because the non-photographic info is user-generated, I do not think we can use waymarking.com for anything other than the existence of the memorial. Conclusions about "why" the memorial was created do not WP:V the info. – S. Rich ( talk) 22:55, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
This segment is related to this article. --- Another Believer ( Talk) 20:19, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
A discussion about the inclusion of individual CSA graves occurred earlier on this talk page (see
Talk:List of Confederate monuments and memorials#I am concerned about this one (Wyoming)). A consensus was reached that individual CSA graves should not be included in the article. An editor interpreted that to mean that all grave markers should be removed, and made
this enormous delete of all graves, including memorial markers placed near mass graves.
This monument and
this monument are examples of memorials removed in that one edit. In addition, grave markers with unique historical significance were also removed, such as
this photo and accompanying text about the grave of
David Owen Dodd. The input of others regarding this is appreciated.
IMO we've got too much in the article about the pros and cons of keeping or removing monuments. This is a list article. Issues about the removal of monuments (proposed or accomplished) is best done in the removal article. – S. Rich ( talk) 05:08, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Just curious... Fluous - Buchanan served 45 yrs in the US Navy with many notable accomplishments. He only served 4 yrs in the CSS, so why are the 3 ships named after him included in the list of Confederate memorials? I'm not seeing any citations that verify those 3 U.S. Navy destroyers were named for Buchanan's 4 yr. service in the CSS. It seems more likely they were named to honor Buchanan's 45 yrs of service in the US Navy, for his proposal that created the US Naval Academy where he served as the 1st superintendent, for his service in the Mexican-American War, and then as commandant of the Washington Navy Yard? Atsme 📞 📧 01:38, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
That merely inform the visitor that this happened here? http://media-cdn.timesfreepress.com/img/photos/2013/10/20/102113B05_House_two_2_cols_color_t800_hc62400425bef6c40a2d5156eeec7abf8f233022a.jpg - Topcat777 23:33, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Kevin, if you're going to edit war over the pov tag can you please explain the pov issue? As far as I'm aware the only issue has been with the graph - what exactly is the concern? Fyddlestix ( talk) 23:19, 4 October 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, but depending heavily on a single source which also happens to be a self-published website by a group of civil rights attorneys is not a reliable source for this purpose. It is actually a primary source. The sources that are needed here should be history books, or published dedications/honorariums like one would find in a state or national statuary hall, or in old newspapers, or inscribed on a plaque on the memorial itself. See this monument: [ [1]] - it includes the dedication and/or honorarium so it's unquestionable that it belongs here. You cannot include a memorial that was created to honor the birthplace of a notable person, or a single event, or a life's history and include it here as if such a memorial was created to honor the Confederacy or that person's affiliation with it. The people, places and things that were memorialized must be identifiable and verifiable, or they should not be listed here. If such memoriums are included without verifying the reason for the honor, then it's WP:OR, and/or noncompliant with WP:V, or it's WP:SYNTH. For example, there are 3 destroyers, facilities, etc. all named after Buchanan. Where is the verifiable evidence that says any one or all of those memorials/namesakes were named in honor of Buchanan's service in the Confederacy or Confederate whatever? He served 45 years in the US Navy and doesn't belong here unless you can cite a RS that verifies the monuments/memorials were actually Confederate. There are many others in the list that are not verified, which means there's quite a bit of work that still needs to be done. Perhaps you can help by finding the RS that verify the specific dedication/memorial/honorarium. I have requested the expertise of DGG since he is quite familiar with such resources. Atsme 📞 📧 06:20, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
This is more than ridiculous. None of the tags are substantiated. No policy is being applied. No sources are being provided. It's just an obnoxious and tendentious POV pushing and IJUSTDONTLIKEIT tag shaming. Tags are going to be removed unless they can be explained. THAT is policy. Not "what reliable sources say hurts my feelings so I'm going to make this article look like shit out of spite and cry loudly about how you can't remove my disruptive tags". Volunteer Marek 13:47, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
When the Image RFC is closed, tags relating to the image should be removed regardless of outcome. (Either removed along with the image, or removed as a resolved dispute when the image is kept.) I have not followed the other tag disputes closely, however if the image is kept then duplicative tags should also be removed. 'Duplicative tags' means tags placed for reasons that would have (but failed to) remove the image. Alsee ( talk) 15:24, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
The Neutrality of this article has improved somewhat, but it still is not neutral enough. Memorials and Monuments erected in honor of confederacy is just as complex as the issue it was derived from, the history of the American Civil War, if not more so. Unlike the article of Civil War which is written in much better neutral point of view, this one still comes nowhere close to meeting wiki Wikipedia:NPOV policies. There are simply so many reasonings for these, yet most of the article stresses only one point of view and opinion, due to White Supremacy. I agree that is 'one' main point that is big part of it, but it is way overdone and not been kept in neutral manner in accordance with Wikipedia:NPOV. Every expert I have ever read or heard from will say that a majority of these are of Historical nature. Several historians say this, every poll of americans reflects they believe they are mostly of a historical nature. This is not given due WP:Weight in accordance with NPOV policy, it is actually not mentioned at all, merely alluded too. White Supremacy being only one opinion on the other hand takes up the majority giving it Undue Weight. The History section, 1st paragraph mostly talks about when and where, but ends with a dig at Lost Cause per 2 art historians. The inclusion is fine, but it really needs to not be part of 1st paragraph if that is the ONLY thing it is going to list or mention. It should also list other reasons .. or simply be moved to another paragraph. Way it is currently is setting the tone for rest to follow, in an attempt to hi-light one opinion or one main opinion as to why. This is NOT neutral nor abiding by wiki NPOV policy. 2nd paragraph mostly talks about Jim Crow and White Supremacy ... again this is fine to be included. The problem is again giving it undue weight as the majority viewpoint for the Memorials and Monuments should be expressed here, Historical covers the majority of these as even the SPLC has stated. As such to give it proper Weight, Historical is what SHOULD be discussed next, instead it is not even mentioned in history section at all. 3rd paragraph is where it can start talking about other reasons. Instead it re-iterates again more about Jim Crow and White Supremacy. Ending with short one sentence about Beautifying locations. Why even bother including that one sentence after 2 whole paragraphs of Jim Crow and White Supremacy, it just gets lost and disregarded. The inclusion is again fine, but should be elsewhere prolly towards the end ... or maybe put that as end of first paragraph. 4th paragraph mostly brings up organizations mostly funding, which is mostly attributable to driving the White Supremacy cause, so I can fully understand it coming after 2 paragraphs talking about that. Ending with 5th paragraph which talks about 1950's and 60's Memorials is prolly the most neutral of them all, except for the point the one opinion tone was already set in preceding first four paragraphs. We have the same issue regarding the lede, it states one thing but clearly the list involves much more than the lede implies it does. The list actually gives anything and everything associated with, whether it actually is in honor for confederacy or not. That is not worded in a neutral manner or accurately either. The lede needs to be more reflective of what all is included in this list to abide by Neutral policies OR the list needs to only include Memorial and Monuments which are clearly can only be in honor of like lede actually states. Imho the list including more that are associated with is fine allowing readers to make up their own mind, so lede just needs changed to reflect this. Removal section is given proper Weight and NPOV kinda, my problem is this is where more of the controversy over these should be discussed. This is where all those opinions from historians stating these are for White Supremacy and Jim Crow laws should really be mentioned more. The history section above should be more about time periods and how many along with list several of given reasons in short. The Removal section can than greatly enhance all the controversy about them. This last bit though is I admit is just my opinion on only ONE way on how to go about this. As long as it is improved to be more neutral I would not care specifically HOW that is done. The point is Yes one opinion White Supremacy is a big part, but entire article keeps stressing this in an attempt to portray THIS is the only and correct reason over and over again, and THIS is why the article does not abide by wiki NPOV policy the most, it is supposed to be kept neutral for such an encyclopedia source as Wikipedia. Mention sure, even hi-light what some historians have stated, but not make it the repetitive theme of the entire article, when majority of Americans (let alone readers) simply do not agree with that point of view. This is not supposed to be a propaganda piece, its an encyclopedic article. Kevin "Hawk" Fisher ( talk) 10:27, 14 October 2017 (UTC)
After a wiki break, I return, refreshed and wondering what is going on here now, and find that the chart (you know the one) has been changed from (on left)
to this (on right)
. And it seems to me that this was done in the middle of a discussion about the chart, during which time, as I understood it, no changes were to be made. I glanced over the various discussions but found no mention of this change. Can some one point me at the discussion or explain why this change was okay? Carptrash ( talk) 15:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
So, Fyddlestix, as an historian, what is your rational for supporting ending the Jim Crow era at 1940? The era goes from being 25 years long to 45 years long, an increase of what, 40% or more? And this is considered to be minor? Carptrash ( talk) 19:17, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
````
Oddly enough, your labeling of the "Jim Crow era" only includes one of the peaks, now here you are saying that it should include both of them. And now your labeling is "an aesthetic decision". Here I was thinking it was based on sources? What do history Ph.D.s think about that approach? Oh yes, they are now the ones who thinks that Britannica is "an exceptionally low-quality source". Very interesting. 05:01, 12 October 2017 (UTC) Carptrash ( talk)
The point about the Britannica is made right after your last edit, 207.222.59.50 (why don't you sign up and get a name?) and it seems to me that both peaks should fall under the Jim Crow era because it is the end of the Civil Rights era that brings the Jim Crow era to a close. That is one of the main points of the Civil Rights era. Check out the Movie Loving (2016 film), which takes place in, 1967 or something and is about bringing Jim Crow to an end, among things. 1967. That is the end of the JC era, not 1925 or 1930 or 1940 or even 1955. But will this make difference to how you look at this? Maybe? Carptrash ( talk) 22:11, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, mid 1960s would be fine with me. I heard a guy a week ago saying that he was still dealing with the residuals of Jim Crow (2017). To cut it off any earlier than the Civil Rights legislation in the 1950s and 1960s is not good. As for the start, Many folks (Britannica for an easy-to-find example) say "after Reconstruction". It seems to me that the amount of arguing here indicates that we will never agree on the dates so let us take them off. Carptrash ( talk) 17:34, 13 October 2017 (UTC)
Take the labels - at least the "Jim Crow era" label off and I'll not oppose the graph. Carptrash ( talk) 06:41, 14 October 2017 (UTC)