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Concept album article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Consensus per the closure of this RfC is that source(s) cited should not only establish the verifiability of a pop culture reference (i.e. an album or artist), but also its significance. |
Concept album is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Blows Against the Empire - Jefferson Airplane If I Could Only Remember My Name - David Crosby Working Man's Dead - Grateful Dead Power - Ice T Fleetwood Mac - Fleetwood Mac Rumours - Fleetwood Mac Small Change - Tom Waits The Pros and Cons of Hitch-hiking - Roger Waters
This article is a horrible mishmash of different fans of different bands writing about their favorite albums. The result is a horribly inconsistant article that is certainly not informative about the genre of concept albums. Unknown bands getting large write-ups on their unknown albums while major works of major artists are ignored is reason enough why this article should GO! 98percenthuman
Other rock opera concept albums are mentioned but for some reason nobody has mentioned Pink Floyd's The Wall. Strange, considering it is the third highest selling album ever. Should at least be fleetingly mentioned.
This article seems to be filled with speculation and conjecture, often with a very biased point of view. I certainly do not feel there's neutrality while reading this article. It could also use some cleanup, as much like many concept albums, it just doesn't gel very well.
I am surprised there is no reference to the Alan Parsons Project here on the concept albumn page, the works of whom are aways very conceptual, each albumn exploring a chosen theme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Alan_Parsons_Project ANC001 added a paragraph on these, IMHO the best examples of theme concept albums there are (as oposed tot he equally important narative concept albums).
added a paragraph on these, IMHO the best examples of theme concept albums there are (as oposed tot he equally important narative concept albums).
Radiohead's Kid A and Hail to the Thief are not ostensibly concept albums. Can anyone prove that they are? I believe that Radiohead may have intended for them to be at the outset, but abandoned the idea. I don't think they belong here. Matthew McVickar 20:08, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)
The descriptions for alot of these albums aren't very detailed. Ill fix some of them and nope the Wikipedians fix more. -- Armus Aran Hail to the Thief is not a concept album.
it makes sense to me to have the spoiler warning on this article. Kingturtle 07:26, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
In general I think it's kind of silly for an encyclopedia to have spoiler warnings; if someone is looking something up in an encyclopedia, he should be aware that he might get more details than he is looking for. The difference is that this encyclopedia is on the web, and seems to turn up in Google searches more and more these days. So I think it makes sense to assume the spoiler warning is more of a courtesy for people who navigate to the page accidentally.
In that light, I think the overriding argument is to leave the warning in; it doesn't really detract seriously from the article and you never know who might stumble onto the page. Although it does bring up the interesting point: a spoiler warning should probably add something to the page <head><title> rather than just a message in the body...
Chinasaur 09:33, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)
Johnny Cash's Ride This Train is one of the first concept albums according to the defintion presented on this page.
"In the wake of the Sgt. Pepper triumph, concept albums became the rage among serious rock artists, with mixed results. The Rolling Stones attempted to duplicate Sgt. Pepper with more explicitly drug and occult-inspired overtones with Their Satanic Majesties Request, but it proved to be a commercial and artistic failure, one that the Stones quickly learned from and moved on. The album made no attempt to fashion a concept around the disparate songs on the album. The unifying nature of the album (such as it was) came primarily from the musical atmosphere, the subject matter of the lyrics, and the psychedelic cover art; the Stones themselves never identified the album as a concept album."
Why is this album even mentioned, it was not a concept album and the paragraph is just someones opinion.
I'm putting in a mention of hims since all of his albums are concept albums
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jclemens ( talk · contribs) 19:11, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
---|---|---|
1. Well-written: | ||
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | No issues noted. | |
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | No issues noted. | |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | OK outside of the scope of what I would consider OR. | |
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | What's there appears appropriate. | |
2c. it contains no original research. | First sentence in the lead... whose definition? Where does it come from? Looks an awful lot like well-meaning and not inappropriate inference, but synthesis nonetheless. | |
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. | Earwig's tool finds two direct quotes which are properly cited, nothing else significant. | |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | See comments | |
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | Sure, but that's not the problem here. | |
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | No partisanship noted. | |
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | No issues noted. | |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | 3/3 look fine. | |
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | Sorta? Hard to illustrate an abstract noun, and the three images are fine, even if oddly monochromatic. It would be nice to have more/better images from the peak of the prog rock era, rather than just illustrations of Guthrie and Sinatra. | |
7. Overall assessment. |
OR is the problem here, and I don't see how it's surmountable without a complete rewrite:
There's a lot missing in the discussion, like almost all of the 70's. Rush, Styx, TSO off the top of my head, but The Wall isn't even mentioned once. How is that even remotely reasonable? Yes, Dark Side is a concept album too, but The Wall's themes (musical and narrative) are significantly more integrated.
This is a rare quick-fail from me. There's nothing here that can be quickly remedied--this is an awesome topic, and it needs a fuller treatment than this is so far. I don't see a GA on concept album being less than double the current size--especially if it gives an overview of the prog rock era in the process.
As with all GA nominated articles I fail, I will absolutely make it my first effort to review the article should you decide to tackle the problems and bring it back to GAN. Jclemens ( talk) 19:51, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
The Beatles' pop song "I Feel Fine" was a No. 1 hit in 1965. It introduced feedback into rock music. The Beach Boys' pop song "Good Vibrations" also hit No. 1 two years later. It was a catalyst for psychedelia and progressive rock.
Been doing some research for the Album era article and happened to come across mention of the Beach Boys' Little Deuce Coupe as the first pop/rock concept album. From Chris Smith's 101 Albums that Changed Popular Music (p. xix): "The Beach Boys release the car-themed Little Deuce Coupe in October [1963], introducing rock and roll to the concept album. Though albums such as Frank Sinatra's 1955 In the Wee Small Hours and Marty Robbins' 1959 Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs had already introduced concept albums, Little Deuce Coupe was the first to comprise almost all original material rather than standard covers."
There's not even a hint of this at Little Deuce Coupe, and I've never come across it before. I'm normally quite wary of these general, wide-ranging music books when it comes to specific details – the scope is so wide, covering several decades and hundreds of artists, and there are always a few major errors as a result. But maybe this is on the level? JG66 ( talk) 04:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
"A concept album of sorts", according to Richie Unterberger. JG66 ( talk) 04:55, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Cartoon network freak ( talk · contribs) 18:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Review coming later... Cartoon network freak ( talk) 18:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Done all above -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 03:24, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Done all above-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 17:09, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Done all above -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 07:20, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Done all above -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 07:20, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
I recently added the following to the article, which I felt was notable and worthwhile. Could someone tell me why it was reverted? I thought that WP:PRESERVE would apply? And that the addition would pave the way for further article expansion by others?
"Concept albums also exist in other musical genres. For example, African jazz trumpeter Hugh Masekela's Colonial Man (1976) features Masekela on the album cover, standing on a ship, dressed as a European explorer. The album's lyrics express anti-colonial sentiments and challenge European narratives about the "discovery" of Africa."
-- Danimations ( talk) 02:40, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
well then fix it instead of deleting it
Should Muse be here? They’re a very popular band and have done a few concept albums DemonDays64 ( talk) 00:19, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:08, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
I wonder if anyone knows when the term "concept album" was first used. I thought it was coined in response to Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band - I had never heard of it before then. Of course, I was only 13 at the time, and didn't read the serious music magazines (which in those days didn't focus on rock at all). PatConolly ( talk) 07:03, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:00, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
I don't think established Wikipedia users understand how frustrating this is, when your edits just get immediately reverted with explanation. It drives away anyone that wants to productively contribute. I removed a paragraph that gave undue weight to a fringe view. It was reverted without explanation, so I removed it again. It was re-added again, saying I need to get 'consensus'. Let's remember 'Be Bold', people. It is not necessary to get consensus before removing useless information.
> In a year-ending essay on the album in 2019, Ann Powers wrote for Slate that the year found the medium in a state of flux. In her observation, many recording artists revitalized the concept album around autobiographical narratives and personal themes, such as intimacy, intersectionality, African-American life, boundaries among women, and grief associated with death. She cited such albums as Brittany Howard's Jaime, Raphael Saadiq's Jimmy Lee, Jamila Woods' Legacy! Legacy!, Rapsody's Eve, Jenny Lewis' On the Line, Julia Jacklin's Crushing, Joe Henry's The Gospel According to Water, and Nick Cave's Ghosteen.
This is just not material that needs to be in the page. To put it as politely as possible: Ann Powers is not exactly Roger Ebert. Her views just aren't that notable. This section is meant to cover a period of 40 years. About a third of it is dedicated to covering an essay in Slate, going on to talk about, frankly, a bunch of very obscure musicians. The paragraph also uses some very political concepts like "intersectionality". This just sounds like some critic filling a word quota for her weekly column by picking buzzwords out of a hat.
I'll put it this way: should there be a paragraph in the article covering every opinion piece ever written that mentions concept albums? Or should it be restricted to including notable contributions to the body of human knowledge? I think it is clear that Wikipedia's policies and general style favour the latter. You're reading an article about concept albums in a broad sense and then you get a random paragraph at the end that is just incongruous with the rest of the article. Very annoying to have to come here and debate removing it when it is so obviously unnecessary. mrout talk 10:15, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Concept album article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 100 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Consensus per the closure of this RfC is that source(s) cited should not only establish the verifiability of a pop culture reference (i.e. an album or artist), but also its significance. |
Concept album is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Concept album has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future: |
Blows Against the Empire - Jefferson Airplane If I Could Only Remember My Name - David Crosby Working Man's Dead - Grateful Dead Power - Ice T Fleetwood Mac - Fleetwood Mac Rumours - Fleetwood Mac Small Change - Tom Waits The Pros and Cons of Hitch-hiking - Roger Waters
This article is a horrible mishmash of different fans of different bands writing about their favorite albums. The result is a horribly inconsistant article that is certainly not informative about the genre of concept albums. Unknown bands getting large write-ups on their unknown albums while major works of major artists are ignored is reason enough why this article should GO! 98percenthuman
Other rock opera concept albums are mentioned but for some reason nobody has mentioned Pink Floyd's The Wall. Strange, considering it is the third highest selling album ever. Should at least be fleetingly mentioned.
This article seems to be filled with speculation and conjecture, often with a very biased point of view. I certainly do not feel there's neutrality while reading this article. It could also use some cleanup, as much like many concept albums, it just doesn't gel very well.
I am surprised there is no reference to the Alan Parsons Project here on the concept albumn page, the works of whom are aways very conceptual, each albumn exploring a chosen theme. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Alan_Parsons_Project ANC001 added a paragraph on these, IMHO the best examples of theme concept albums there are (as oposed tot he equally important narative concept albums).
added a paragraph on these, IMHO the best examples of theme concept albums there are (as oposed tot he equally important narative concept albums).
Radiohead's Kid A and Hail to the Thief are not ostensibly concept albums. Can anyone prove that they are? I believe that Radiohead may have intended for them to be at the outset, but abandoned the idea. I don't think they belong here. Matthew McVickar 20:08, Apr 11, 2004 (UTC)
The descriptions for alot of these albums aren't very detailed. Ill fix some of them and nope the Wikipedians fix more. -- Armus Aran Hail to the Thief is not a concept album.
it makes sense to me to have the spoiler warning on this article. Kingturtle 07:26, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
In general I think it's kind of silly for an encyclopedia to have spoiler warnings; if someone is looking something up in an encyclopedia, he should be aware that he might get more details than he is looking for. The difference is that this encyclopedia is on the web, and seems to turn up in Google searches more and more these days. So I think it makes sense to assume the spoiler warning is more of a courtesy for people who navigate to the page accidentally.
In that light, I think the overriding argument is to leave the warning in; it doesn't really detract seriously from the article and you never know who might stumble onto the page. Although it does bring up the interesting point: a spoiler warning should probably add something to the page <head><title> rather than just a message in the body...
Chinasaur 09:33, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)
Johnny Cash's Ride This Train is one of the first concept albums according to the defintion presented on this page.
"In the wake of the Sgt. Pepper triumph, concept albums became the rage among serious rock artists, with mixed results. The Rolling Stones attempted to duplicate Sgt. Pepper with more explicitly drug and occult-inspired overtones with Their Satanic Majesties Request, but it proved to be a commercial and artistic failure, one that the Stones quickly learned from and moved on. The album made no attempt to fashion a concept around the disparate songs on the album. The unifying nature of the album (such as it was) came primarily from the musical atmosphere, the subject matter of the lyrics, and the psychedelic cover art; the Stones themselves never identified the album as a concept album."
Why is this album even mentioned, it was not a concept album and the paragraph is just someones opinion.
I'm putting in a mention of hims since all of his albums are concept albums
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Jclemens ( talk · contribs) 19:11, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
Rate | Attribute | Review Comment |
---|---|---|
1. Well-written: | ||
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | No issues noted. | |
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | No issues noted. | |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | OK outside of the scope of what I would consider OR. | |
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | What's there appears appropriate. | |
2c. it contains no original research. | First sentence in the lead... whose definition? Where does it come from? Looks an awful lot like well-meaning and not inappropriate inference, but synthesis nonetheless. | |
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. | Earwig's tool finds two direct quotes which are properly cited, nothing else significant. | |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | See comments | |
3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | Sure, but that's not the problem here. | |
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | No partisanship noted. | |
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | No issues noted. | |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | 3/3 look fine. | |
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | Sorta? Hard to illustrate an abstract noun, and the three images are fine, even if oddly monochromatic. It would be nice to have more/better images from the peak of the prog rock era, rather than just illustrations of Guthrie and Sinatra. | |
7. Overall assessment. |
OR is the problem here, and I don't see how it's surmountable without a complete rewrite:
There's a lot missing in the discussion, like almost all of the 70's. Rush, Styx, TSO off the top of my head, but The Wall isn't even mentioned once. How is that even remotely reasonable? Yes, Dark Side is a concept album too, but The Wall's themes (musical and narrative) are significantly more integrated.
This is a rare quick-fail from me. There's nothing here that can be quickly remedied--this is an awesome topic, and it needs a fuller treatment than this is so far. I don't see a GA on concept album being less than double the current size--especially if it gives an overview of the prog rock era in the process.
As with all GA nominated articles I fail, I will absolutely make it my first effort to review the article should you decide to tackle the problems and bring it back to GAN. Jclemens ( talk) 19:51, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
The Beatles' pop song "I Feel Fine" was a No. 1 hit in 1965. It introduced feedback into rock music. The Beach Boys' pop song "Good Vibrations" also hit No. 1 two years later. It was a catalyst for psychedelia and progressive rock.
Been doing some research for the Album era article and happened to come across mention of the Beach Boys' Little Deuce Coupe as the first pop/rock concept album. From Chris Smith's 101 Albums that Changed Popular Music (p. xix): "The Beach Boys release the car-themed Little Deuce Coupe in October [1963], introducing rock and roll to the concept album. Though albums such as Frank Sinatra's 1955 In the Wee Small Hours and Marty Robbins' 1959 Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs had already introduced concept albums, Little Deuce Coupe was the first to comprise almost all original material rather than standard covers."
There's not even a hint of this at Little Deuce Coupe, and I've never come across it before. I'm normally quite wary of these general, wide-ranging music books when it comes to specific details – the scope is so wide, covering several decades and hundreds of artists, and there are always a few major errors as a result. But maybe this is on the level? JG66 ( talk) 04:24, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
"A concept album of sorts", according to Richie Unterberger. JG66 ( talk) 04:55, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Cartoon network freak ( talk · contribs) 18:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Review coming later... Cartoon network freak ( talk) 18:44, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
Done all above -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 03:24, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Done all above-- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 17:09, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
Done all above -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 07:20, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Done all above -- Ilovetopaint ( talk) 07:20, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
I recently added the following to the article, which I felt was notable and worthwhile. Could someone tell me why it was reverted? I thought that WP:PRESERVE would apply? And that the addition would pave the way for further article expansion by others?
"Concept albums also exist in other musical genres. For example, African jazz trumpeter Hugh Masekela's Colonial Man (1976) features Masekela on the album cover, standing on a ship, dressed as a European explorer. The album's lyrics express anti-colonial sentiments and challenge European narratives about the "discovery" of Africa."
-- Danimations ( talk) 02:40, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
well then fix it instead of deleting it
Should Muse be here? They’re a very popular band and have done a few concept albums DemonDays64 ( talk) 00:19, 6 October 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 16:08, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
I wonder if anyone knows when the term "concept album" was first used. I thought it was coined in response to Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band - I had never heard of it before then. Of course, I was only 13 at the time, and didn't read the serious music magazines (which in those days didn't focus on rock at all). PatConolly ( talk) 07:03, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:00, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
I don't think established Wikipedia users understand how frustrating this is, when your edits just get immediately reverted with explanation. It drives away anyone that wants to productively contribute. I removed a paragraph that gave undue weight to a fringe view. It was reverted without explanation, so I removed it again. It was re-added again, saying I need to get 'consensus'. Let's remember 'Be Bold', people. It is not necessary to get consensus before removing useless information.
> In a year-ending essay on the album in 2019, Ann Powers wrote for Slate that the year found the medium in a state of flux. In her observation, many recording artists revitalized the concept album around autobiographical narratives and personal themes, such as intimacy, intersectionality, African-American life, boundaries among women, and grief associated with death. She cited such albums as Brittany Howard's Jaime, Raphael Saadiq's Jimmy Lee, Jamila Woods' Legacy! Legacy!, Rapsody's Eve, Jenny Lewis' On the Line, Julia Jacklin's Crushing, Joe Henry's The Gospel According to Water, and Nick Cave's Ghosteen.
This is just not material that needs to be in the page. To put it as politely as possible: Ann Powers is not exactly Roger Ebert. Her views just aren't that notable. This section is meant to cover a period of 40 years. About a third of it is dedicated to covering an essay in Slate, going on to talk about, frankly, a bunch of very obscure musicians. The paragraph also uses some very political concepts like "intersectionality". This just sounds like some critic filling a word quota for her weekly column by picking buzzwords out of a hat.
I'll put it this way: should there be a paragraph in the article covering every opinion piece ever written that mentions concept albums? Or should it be restricted to including notable contributions to the body of human knowledge? I think it is clear that Wikipedia's policies and general style favour the latter. You're reading an article about concept albums in a broad sense and then you get a random paragraph at the end that is just incongruous with the rest of the article. Very annoying to have to come here and debate removing it when it is so obviously unnecessary. mrout talk 10:15, 9 August 2023 (UTC)