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There is a "System science portal" box hovering over the caption for the second, bar-graph image. This is really annoying; I have to copy/paste, or open up the source-code to read a caption. I can't see how to immediately fix this, but I think someone should address this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.216.132.171 ( talk) 20:52, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
As it sits, the external link to the Redfish Group with no description looks like spam. Any comments or differing characterization of the link before it gets removed? -- Blainster 23:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
The universe seems to be arranged in hierarchies. There are various levels at which you can understand it. The level we are most famililar with is the level of everyday life. Going down we run into the levels of organs, cells, molecular biology, chemistry. Each level has its own laws which work in certian "special cases" with all violations at the "extreams". Complex Adaptive Swarms exhibit similar layered behavior also, at each layer the swarm is made of smaller complex adaptive systems. This layered behavior doesn't appear in swarms made of simple systems. This all seems to imply that either there is no bottom to the layers of the universe(and no TOE) or, the bottom layer is made of smart, adaptive particles.-- SurrealWarrior 18:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) 12:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Jon Awbrey 05:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The Revision as of 13:50, 20 December 2006 Michael Hardy, (→Definitions - cquote) resulted in the deletion of the original text. But I can't figure out how to fix it. Help, anyone? Fireproeng 04:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
i'm having trouble understanding these articles. i.e. complexity almost doesn't say anything specific. can we have an example of a complex adaptive system, what makes it complex, what makes it adaptive? Is a thermostat one? or is it not complex?
a quote from the article (a definition?)
the article just keeps saying the same words over and over again: self-similarity, compexity, adaptive capacity... but it defines none of these. I have no clue what self-similarity is doing here, it usually refers to a subsystem being similar to the whole system, of course this is strictly speaking impossible for a finite system so i don't get it. i also don't see how that makes it adaptive. does it make a snowflake complex?
pick a few systems and define in what way they are self similar, define what it means for the system to be adaptive.
the section on biology only discusses a technical issue of the left hand wall in evolution of complexity. again, it doesn't describe what it means for a cell or a mouse to be a complex adaptive system (other than the obvious gut sense that of course that sounds like what they are. work your way down the scale from mouse to cell to ribosome to enzyme to amino acid to carbon atom to proton. at what point in this hierarchy is the system no longer a complex adaptive system?
I'd try writing it, but i've been trying for 20 years to no avail. the best i can come up with is a collection of 60 descriptions of interesting systems and let the reader decide on the categories if there are any. perhaps it is too early in history for such a treatment, these things are only 150 years old. I think it took longer than that to define what oxygen was. Wikiskimmer 08:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I removed a list of scientists from the external links section, for the third time. Now it really looks like a random list of scientists, which shouldn't be in this section in the first place. Main articles like this in Wikipedia simply don't show a list of external links to scientists in the external links section. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker ( talk) 17:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree the external links section in this article did not follow Wikipedia's content policies or guidelines. There is no question about that. But these links in a way seems to be important. This article is the main article about the new field of "Complex adaptive system", which is a scientific paradigm developed by scientists, institutes, and in conferences and in magazines. Now I am not a real expert in this field. But it seemed to me that those 35 links gave a good representation of this scientific field. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker ( talk) 22:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
University Programs
Organizations
Journals
I have removed the following list of scientists from the article several times now:
An anomynous editor keep putting this list back. Now I wonder, why he wants this list here in the first place. Maybe he can explain first. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker ( talk) 22:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
See modern view of open systems and systems far from equilibrium: there are a "hard Science" behind Complex adaptive systems theory! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.111.77.219 ( talk) 12:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
The illustration at the start of the Overview has no citation. Checking its origin it was produced by a wikipedia editor "inspired" by a couple of books. Aside from the fact that it is inaccurate it is clearly original research. If no citation is produced to support it I am removing it again. -- Snowded TALK 19:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
1) In the quoted book M. Mitchell Waldrop. (1994). Complexity: the emerging science at the edge of order and chaos. - I have to refer to the Simon & Schuster Paperback issue - M. Mitchell Waldrop wrote a protocol of a lecture of John Holland "THE ECONOMY AS AN EVOLVING COMPLEX SYSTEM". You can not cite that as an original text of John Holland.
2) Also Waldrop´s protocol is cited wrong, what we can see in the article is a summary of what Waldrop wrote and is not marked as a summary.
3) Even in the original paper of John Holland the article citation can not be found. Santa Fe Institute: "The economy as an evolving complex system - The proceedings of the evolutionary paths of the global economy workshop, held september, 1987 in Santa Fe, New Mexico", Editor: Anderson, Philip W. Addison-Wesley, 1988
-- Torbrax ( talk) 14:37, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
As said before the John Holland citation was just wrong and the links for the references of the other two citations did not work any more.-- Torbrax ( talk) 21:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Recently this file was removed with the argument "unsourced picture of dubious value" (see here) however:
You can always question the use of such concept maps in Wikipedia. But if there are around so long, there should be a discussion and some consensus first. -- Mdd ( talk) 11:22, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
In the discussion on Wikipedia talk:No original research there is a common understanding, that it is acceptable if the diagram simply illustrates what is in accompanying text. This can establish by looking at the terms mentioned in the specific concept map:
Now all of these terms relate to systems theory in general and Complex adaptive system in particular, so the image should be accepted. -- Mdd ( talk) 13:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
It seems you are missing the point here (see also here): Wikipedia article can be illustrated with images from reliable sources, such as the File:Complex-adaptive-system.jpg, just like this article can be expanded by adding appropriate quotes. The only thing required is that they are about the same topic, which even you confirmed "It uses some terms in the field but a limited set...". -- Mdd ( talk) 22:31, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
In The Wiki and the Blog: Toward a Complex Adaptive Intelligence Community (2004) D. Calvin Andrus explains the image as follows:
Now this article itselve is according to Google Scholar currently cited by 70 sources, see here. This makes it notable enough for inclusion. -- Mdd ( talk) 23:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Eight years ago in 2005 (see here) this article offered a set of three definitions:
A Complex Adaptive System (CAS) is a dynamic network of many agents (which may represent cells, species, individuals, firms, nations) acting in parallel, constantly acting and reacting to what the other agents are doing. The control of a CAS tends to be highly dispersed and decentralized. If there is to be any coherent behavior in the system, it has to arise from competition and cooperation among the agents themselves. The overall behavior of the system is the result of a huge number of decisions made every moment by many individual agents. (source: Complexity: The Emerging Science at the Edge of Order and Chaos by Michael Waldrop)
A CAS behaves/evolves according to three key principles: order is emergent as opposed to predetermined (c.f. Neural Networks), the system's history is irreversible, and the system's future is often unpredictable. The basic building blocks of the CAS are agents. Agents scan their environment and develop schema representing interpretive and action rules. These schema are subject to change and evolution. (source: K. Dooley, AZ State University)
Macroscopic collections of simple (and typically nonlinearly) interacting units that are endowed with the ability to evolve and adapt to a changing environment. (source: Complexity in Social Science glossary a research training project of the European Commission)
Now in 2013 only the following fraction is left, see ( here):
An other Wiki (see here (also created by User:JFromm)) even list five defintions by John H. Holland, Kevin Dooley, Murray Gell-Mann, Stephanie Forrest, and an rather unknown source.
Now it seems like a good idea to either integrated the section in the article, expand it, or create a Wikiquote article. Either way, the current quote must be checked and improved. -- Mdd ( talk) 23:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
References
CAS-T-12
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).CAS-T-11
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).CAS-T-13
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Imma doubting. I mean, you could say a social network is a "complex adaptive system", or you could say that the guy that said that should get his head out of his/her ass, and some people participating in the social network actually did some thinking. 88.159.79.223 ( talk) 00:47, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
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I've removed this paragraph twice now for the following reasons
Snowded TALK 11:32, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
The first part of the characteristics section doesn't actually refer to CAS, it's just for complex systems. This should be adjusted. TPen94 ( talk) 17:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
Is there any difference between complex system and complex adaptive system? Otherwise we need a merge between these two articles. There's a lot of material in the two articles, so some adaptation ;) would be needed in a merge by our complex system of editors. Boud ( talk) 23:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
There is a "System science portal" box hovering over the caption for the second, bar-graph image. This is really annoying; I have to copy/paste, or open up the source-code to read a caption. I can't see how to immediately fix this, but I think someone should address this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.216.132.171 ( talk) 20:52, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
As it sits, the external link to the Redfish Group with no description looks like spam. Any comments or differing characterization of the link before it gets removed? -- Blainster 23:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
The universe seems to be arranged in hierarchies. There are various levels at which you can understand it. The level we are most famililar with is the level of everyday life. Going down we run into the levels of organs, cells, molecular biology, chemistry. Each level has its own laws which work in certian "special cases" with all violations at the "extreams". Complex Adaptive Swarms exhibit similar layered behavior also, at each layer the swarm is made of smaller complex adaptive systems. This layered behavior doesn't appear in swarms made of simple systems. This all seems to imply that either there is no bottom to the layers of the universe(and no TOE) or, the bottom layer is made of smart, adaptive particles.-- SurrealWarrior 18:08, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) 12:29, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Jon Awbrey 05:24, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The Revision as of 13:50, 20 December 2006 Michael Hardy, (→Definitions - cquote) resulted in the deletion of the original text. But I can't figure out how to fix it. Help, anyone? Fireproeng 04:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
i'm having trouble understanding these articles. i.e. complexity almost doesn't say anything specific. can we have an example of a complex adaptive system, what makes it complex, what makes it adaptive? Is a thermostat one? or is it not complex?
a quote from the article (a definition?)
the article just keeps saying the same words over and over again: self-similarity, compexity, adaptive capacity... but it defines none of these. I have no clue what self-similarity is doing here, it usually refers to a subsystem being similar to the whole system, of course this is strictly speaking impossible for a finite system so i don't get it. i also don't see how that makes it adaptive. does it make a snowflake complex?
pick a few systems and define in what way they are self similar, define what it means for the system to be adaptive.
the section on biology only discusses a technical issue of the left hand wall in evolution of complexity. again, it doesn't describe what it means for a cell or a mouse to be a complex adaptive system (other than the obvious gut sense that of course that sounds like what they are. work your way down the scale from mouse to cell to ribosome to enzyme to amino acid to carbon atom to proton. at what point in this hierarchy is the system no longer a complex adaptive system?
I'd try writing it, but i've been trying for 20 years to no avail. the best i can come up with is a collection of 60 descriptions of interesting systems and let the reader decide on the categories if there are any. perhaps it is too early in history for such a treatment, these things are only 150 years old. I think it took longer than that to define what oxygen was. Wikiskimmer 08:05, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I removed a list of scientists from the external links section, for the third time. Now it really looks like a random list of scientists, which shouldn't be in this section in the first place. Main articles like this in Wikipedia simply don't show a list of external links to scientists in the external links section. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker ( talk) 17:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree the external links section in this article did not follow Wikipedia's content policies or guidelines. There is no question about that. But these links in a way seems to be important. This article is the main article about the new field of "Complex adaptive system", which is a scientific paradigm developed by scientists, institutes, and in conferences and in magazines. Now I am not a real expert in this field. But it seemed to me that those 35 links gave a good representation of this scientific field. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker ( talk) 22:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
University Programs
Organizations
Journals
I have removed the following list of scientists from the article several times now:
An anomynous editor keep putting this list back. Now I wonder, why he wants this list here in the first place. Maybe he can explain first. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker ( talk) 22:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
See modern view of open systems and systems far from equilibrium: there are a "hard Science" behind Complex adaptive systems theory! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.111.77.219 ( talk) 12:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
The illustration at the start of the Overview has no citation. Checking its origin it was produced by a wikipedia editor "inspired" by a couple of books. Aside from the fact that it is inaccurate it is clearly original research. If no citation is produced to support it I am removing it again. -- Snowded TALK 19:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
1) In the quoted book M. Mitchell Waldrop. (1994). Complexity: the emerging science at the edge of order and chaos. - I have to refer to the Simon & Schuster Paperback issue - M. Mitchell Waldrop wrote a protocol of a lecture of John Holland "THE ECONOMY AS AN EVOLVING COMPLEX SYSTEM". You can not cite that as an original text of John Holland.
2) Also Waldrop´s protocol is cited wrong, what we can see in the article is a summary of what Waldrop wrote and is not marked as a summary.
3) Even in the original paper of John Holland the article citation can not be found. Santa Fe Institute: "The economy as an evolving complex system - The proceedings of the evolutionary paths of the global economy workshop, held september, 1987 in Santa Fe, New Mexico", Editor: Anderson, Philip W. Addison-Wesley, 1988
-- Torbrax ( talk) 14:37, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
As said before the John Holland citation was just wrong and the links for the references of the other two citations did not work any more.-- Torbrax ( talk) 21:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Recently this file was removed with the argument "unsourced picture of dubious value" (see here) however:
You can always question the use of such concept maps in Wikipedia. But if there are around so long, there should be a discussion and some consensus first. -- Mdd ( talk) 11:22, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
In the discussion on Wikipedia talk:No original research there is a common understanding, that it is acceptable if the diagram simply illustrates what is in accompanying text. This can establish by looking at the terms mentioned in the specific concept map:
Now all of these terms relate to systems theory in general and Complex adaptive system in particular, so the image should be accepted. -- Mdd ( talk) 13:26, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
It seems you are missing the point here (see also here): Wikipedia article can be illustrated with images from reliable sources, such as the File:Complex-adaptive-system.jpg, just like this article can be expanded by adding appropriate quotes. The only thing required is that they are about the same topic, which even you confirmed "It uses some terms in the field but a limited set...". -- Mdd ( talk) 22:31, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
In The Wiki and the Blog: Toward a Complex Adaptive Intelligence Community (2004) D. Calvin Andrus explains the image as follows:
Now this article itselve is according to Google Scholar currently cited by 70 sources, see here. This makes it notable enough for inclusion. -- Mdd ( talk) 23:38, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Eight years ago in 2005 (see here) this article offered a set of three definitions:
A Complex Adaptive System (CAS) is a dynamic network of many agents (which may represent cells, species, individuals, firms, nations) acting in parallel, constantly acting and reacting to what the other agents are doing. The control of a CAS tends to be highly dispersed and decentralized. If there is to be any coherent behavior in the system, it has to arise from competition and cooperation among the agents themselves. The overall behavior of the system is the result of a huge number of decisions made every moment by many individual agents. (source: Complexity: The Emerging Science at the Edge of Order and Chaos by Michael Waldrop)
A CAS behaves/evolves according to three key principles: order is emergent as opposed to predetermined (c.f. Neural Networks), the system's history is irreversible, and the system's future is often unpredictable. The basic building blocks of the CAS are agents. Agents scan their environment and develop schema representing interpretive and action rules. These schema are subject to change and evolution. (source: K. Dooley, AZ State University)
Macroscopic collections of simple (and typically nonlinearly) interacting units that are endowed with the ability to evolve and adapt to a changing environment. (source: Complexity in Social Science glossary a research training project of the European Commission)
Now in 2013 only the following fraction is left, see ( here):
An other Wiki (see here (also created by User:JFromm)) even list five defintions by John H. Holland, Kevin Dooley, Murray Gell-Mann, Stephanie Forrest, and an rather unknown source.
Now it seems like a good idea to either integrated the section in the article, expand it, or create a Wikiquote article. Either way, the current quote must be checked and improved. -- Mdd ( talk) 23:15, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
References
CAS-T-12
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).CAS-T-11
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).CAS-T-13
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Imma doubting. I mean, you could say a social network is a "complex adaptive system", or you could say that the guy that said that should get his head out of his/her ass, and some people participating in the social network actually did some thinking. 88.159.79.223 ( talk) 00:47, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Complex adaptive system. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:05, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Complex adaptive system. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 19:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
I've removed this paragraph twice now for the following reasons
Snowded TALK 11:32, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
The first part of the characteristics section doesn't actually refer to CAS, it's just for complex systems. This should be adjusted. TPen94 ( talk) 17:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
Is there any difference between complex system and complex adaptive system? Otherwise we need a merge between these two articles. There's a lot of material in the two articles, so some adaptation ;) would be needed in a merge by our complex system of editors. Boud ( talk) 23:16, 21 June 2024 (UTC)