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Possibly stating the obvious, but the first stage of clean-up for this article will be to add more inline refs. JMWt ( talk) 11:53, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I also just noticed that the first section is word-for-word from here: http://www.communityledtotalsanitation.org/page/clts-approach - if this is just cut-and-pasted from the IDS website (which seems more likely than the reverse), I guess that is not ideal for a wikipedia page.. JMWt ( talk) 14:58, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I suggest to remove the external link to the Appropedia page as it seems to contain pretty much the same content as we have here? And if not how about copying across what is missing, as it's open access on Appropedia as far as I know. Same would apply if we find anything useful on Akvopedia.org about CLTS ~~
I would delete the entire Further Reading section. This is not in-line with normal Wikipedia practice where the further reading leads to textbooks. If the further reading references are important, they should be cited in-line. If not, then they can anyway be found from the External Links section. EvM-Susana ( talk) 22:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
The only problem with removing this is that there are links to resources in other languages which might be relevant to readers. I wonder if maybe we are wrong on removing this for that reason? JMWt ( talk) 09:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
The lead needs to be modified so that it becomes a summary of the article (with up to 4 paragraphs in length). At the moment it is more or less just about the history of CLTS. EvM-Susana ( talk) 22:22, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi J.myers2, I have removed this because this is not of encyclopedic nature. Rather cite statements from there and then include it in the reference list:
+++++++ Frontiers of CLTS
'Frontiers of CLTS: Innovations and Insights' is a series of short notes offering guidance on new methods and approaches, and thinking on broader issues surrounding the CLTS approach. The most recent 'Sustainability and CLTS: Taking Stock' identifies some of the problems with sustaining ODF communities and identifies some priority areas for learning.
Other additions:
1. Participatory Design Development for Sanitation
2. How to Trigger for Handwashing with Soap
3. Disability: Making CLTS Fully Inclusive
4. Sustainability and CLTS: Taking Stock
The series is also available in French and Portuguese. ++++++++++
EvM-Susana ( talk) 10:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
EvM-Susana, I am not sure what the 'wider criteria' are either! JMWt ( talk) 11:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm wondering who developed the "Community-Led Total Sanitation (CLTS)" approach? I was asked to look at this article, but this method of shame is something I can't endorse. I'm sorry EvM-Susana but I could never support a method based on shame. Are there other formal approaches to changing behaviour regarding sanitation? EChastain ( talk) 01:29, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Also, does this method have any scientific support? The source for this article seems to be a primary source, and so not a reliable source for wikipedia. Also, the developer of this method: "Dr. Kamal Kar is a specialist in livestock production, agriculture and natural resources by training". I think the article needs a much wider focus, wider than just the ideas of one man. How about a compare and contract article about several methods, backed by scientific evidence on their effectiveness? EChastain ( talk) 01:55, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the general point that this article being a mess, a few points:
1. It is a work in progress. For many years it was copied-and-pasted from a copyrighted page with few inline sources. I wrote much of the content in a hurry having realised this last week, and I would argue it is considerably improved. The structure is largely mine, I am interested to hear from anyone who thinks there is a better way to present the information.
2. It is about a system which is in widespread use in sanitation, readers are likely to come across it having heard about "Community-led Total Sanitation" or "CLTS", as there are many NGOs and governments who are using these terms.
3. I have fairly strong feelings about CLTS, but I see it as my responsiblity to record things here dispassionately, providing as many relevant references as possible for readers to understand the terms used and the way they are used in practice. WP:NPOV states that "articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without bias." The use of shame is controversial and criticism should be included in the relevant section. Pointing this out has no bearing on the rest of the article, this article should not read as if it is promoting or detracting from CLTS.
4. Kamal Kar was the originator of the concept, he is seen as being an expert in community engagement, which is why Wateraid asked him to intervene in the Bangladesh situation. Kar developed and engaged many with his ideas, but they have grown far beyond him. It is therefore important to acknowledge his contribution as well as the way the thing has expanded beyond his influence. I agree that the latter can be improved and clarified - again this is a work in progress.
5. Self-published sources are used to reference this article because few peer-reviewed articles exist. WP:SPS says "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." The majority of cites here are from NGO practice documents. Whilst it might be better to use sources in peer-reviewed books, these generally do not exist about CLTS IMO. I would be very interested to see them included if anyone can find them.
6. Finally I think we should all keep in mind the dangers of trying to argue from authority. Many of the previous editors of this page are very conversant with the ideas behind CTLS, psychology, sanitation etc. The point is not to try to get to 'the truth' but to focus on the way that the terms are being used and applied so that a person coming here finds the content useful. If there is a relevant reference which supports your view, use it. If you have no references, then I'm afraid it can't be used here.
JMWt ( talk) 08:48, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Regarding outcome studies, this source appears to pinpoint the problems regarding evaluating CLTS.
Is there a way to reduce the use of jargon and acronyms? It's difficult to read now. And in the sources, what is WEPA, PLANUSA and UNC? (The latter two are funded by the Gates foundation, but other than that?) The "about" section on the websites don't seem to give much info.
Please excuse these questions/comments. I'm trying to get a grip on this subject matter. Thanks! EChastain ( talk) 14:53, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
This article appears to rely on reports of non-profits and other primary sources and not on secondary sources per reliable sources guidelines. Also, this is an opinion piece. So I tagged the article, but feel free to remove it when the sources are improved. EChastain ( talk) 15:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
From WP:SPS
Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
- the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;
- it does not involve claims about third parties;
- it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
- there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
- the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Further, the opinion piece is used to support the claim: "There have been cases of fines (monetary and non-monetary), withholding of entitlements, public taunting, posting of humiliating pictures and even violence."
I was asked to look at this article. So I did and I'm giving feedback. I believe the tag is warranted. But, whatever. I'll butt out. EChastain ( talk) 15:51, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
This UNICEF articles has info on outcomes for CLTS in Sierra Leone, Zambia, India, Nepal with what worked and what didn't in each country. It also has references. Community Approaches to Total Sanitation EChastain ( talk) 00:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
JMW, sorry. I had an ( edit conflict) and didn't know you were doing a wholesale revert because of one word you felt was wrong. The thing to do is to use the talk pages to discuss things, rather than reverting huge chunks. I recommend this avenue for resolving differences on all wikipedia articles. EChastain ( talk) 21:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I reckon this article is really improving nicely, thanks to the work of talk and EChastain! Thank you! Hopefully more people will take an interest in this article as well, because CLTS is really pretty "big". It think it's time to look for photos. I couldn't find any on Wikimedia Commons so far, which is partly due to the fact that we don't have any on the SuSanA flickr database either. I have asked CLTS Knowledge Hub if we can use any form their photo contest: http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation-and-other-community-led-approaches/10752-photo-competition-picturing-clts . There is also a Flickr account of CLTS Foundation with good photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/communityledtotalsanitation/ I looked at a couple and they say all rights reserved, so I will e-mail them to find out if we can use any. EvM-Susana ( talk) 08:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
I received an answer on the Commons regarding the category:
the creation of the category and the creation of the template were both inspired by practical considerations from the fact that there are many files from the same source. For more information about the upload of those files, you can probably ask the users EvM-Susana and Fæ. Because the files from that organization are copied to Commons from the flickr account of the organization, I understand EvM-Susana's comment on en.wp as meaning that the files copied to Commons from that account are those that are available there, and that's why EvM-Susana would try to find files from other sources, including flickr accounts of other people, to copy to Commons.
I looked at the category creation. Elitre (A) created the category on the commons and EvM-Susana made several revisions last October. Since then another editor has removed a few categories and added one. So that's as it stands now. EChastain ( talk) 19:33, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
But they are not under an open licence. I will try to convince them to change the licence type for their whole photostream. Or if not then at least for some photos that we can use (they already agreed to the latter and I am waiting for them to select some photos). EvM-Susana ( talk) 20:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
About the hidden category on commons which were files from the SuSanA flickr transfer: could you give me the link where I can access them because perhaps it's easy for me to suggest which categories they could go into. I have to admit Commons is for me still a big question mark. I only use it to insert photos into articles, usually those that came originally from the SuSanA photostream. I am going to insert in the next few days some photos on helminths so stay tuned... But I have never used it to browse EvM-Susana ( talk) 20:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
For you, click on File:Facultative pond (6898412198).jpg and you will see in tiny print at the bottom: "Files created by Sustainable Sanitation Alliance (SuSanA)". (But first, make sure to set your preferences on the Commons to "show hidden categories".)
Strange that you have to ask for permission. It says on the Commons: "SuSanA is kindly donating pictures from its Flickr photo database for Wikimedia Commons. Pictures in SuSanA's Flickr photo database were taken by various SuSanA members who all have an interest to share their sanitation photos as widely as possible." And that Flickr photostream you want images from is included as part of the SusanA database.
If you upload any images, please put them in categories when you do, or you might not find them later. The "Flickr tags" are very misleading, so don't count on them. Editors on the Commons get overwhelmed with huge uploads that are badly categorised. I think that's why so many of your images weren't categorised at all. A typical scenario is that editors looked at some images of kids, or a school, or water categorised under "urine" or something that looked wrong to them, removed the cats and couldn't figure out where to put it. If there's at least a location, an editor confused about "what the heck is this" will categorise by place. Otherwise, they'll leave with no cat. (There are many thousands that will never have cats there.) EChastain ( talk) 22:16, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
No, the flickr photostream of CLTS is NOT part of the flickr photostream of SuSanA - they are two different organisations. Just like the photostream might be of Joe Blogg. EvM-Susana ( talk) 23:33, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
There are some publications on testing the effectiveness of CLTS by Plan USA - are any of these useful to incorporate into this article, do they count as secondary sources? http://scalingclts.web.unc.edu/resource-library/ EvM-Susana ( talk) 09:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
It's a great source for why there's no reliable date on the effectiveness of CLTS. EChastain ( talk) 00:00, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
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I would like to see the first sentence define the term CLTS better, while using language that regular readers would find more familiar. "Triggering" is introduced without being explained well. Readability is a problem I'd like to work on. The first sentence gets a 1 (sic) out of 100 on the Flesch readability scale. The Wikipedia goal is 60-70. In the below attempt at improving readability I only got the score up to 41, but you can see what I have in mind.
Community-led total sanitation (CLTS) is an approach used to improve sanitation n a community. Ending the practice of open defecation is the goal. The term "triggering" describes processes that bring about spontaneous and long-term changes to sanitation practices.
My question for those watching this page is how open are you to readability edits? Often experts don't want to give up on fine details, in order to make the topic more accessible to the general reader. My goal is to preserve accuracy, while introducing some clarity. PlanetCare ( talk) 21:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
This reference from USAID could be used to add further updates to the article (I don't have time right now to do it myself but perhaps someone else has; if not, I will come back to it later): see here EMsmile ( talk) 15:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Community-led total sanitation article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Possibly stating the obvious, but the first stage of clean-up for this article will be to add more inline refs. JMWt ( talk) 11:53, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I also just noticed that the first section is word-for-word from here: http://www.communityledtotalsanitation.org/page/clts-approach - if this is just cut-and-pasted from the IDS website (which seems more likely than the reverse), I guess that is not ideal for a wikipedia page.. JMWt ( talk) 14:58, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I suggest to remove the external link to the Appropedia page as it seems to contain pretty much the same content as we have here? And if not how about copying across what is missing, as it's open access on Appropedia as far as I know. Same would apply if we find anything useful on Akvopedia.org about CLTS ~~
I would delete the entire Further Reading section. This is not in-line with normal Wikipedia practice where the further reading leads to textbooks. If the further reading references are important, they should be cited in-line. If not, then they can anyway be found from the External Links section. EvM-Susana ( talk) 22:17, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
The only problem with removing this is that there are links to resources in other languages which might be relevant to readers. I wonder if maybe we are wrong on removing this for that reason? JMWt ( talk) 09:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
The lead needs to be modified so that it becomes a summary of the article (with up to 4 paragraphs in length). At the moment it is more or less just about the history of CLTS. EvM-Susana ( talk) 22:22, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi J.myers2, I have removed this because this is not of encyclopedic nature. Rather cite statements from there and then include it in the reference list:
+++++++ Frontiers of CLTS
'Frontiers of CLTS: Innovations and Insights' is a series of short notes offering guidance on new methods and approaches, and thinking on broader issues surrounding the CLTS approach. The most recent 'Sustainability and CLTS: Taking Stock' identifies some of the problems with sustaining ODF communities and identifies some priority areas for learning.
Other additions:
1. Participatory Design Development for Sanitation
2. How to Trigger for Handwashing with Soap
3. Disability: Making CLTS Fully Inclusive
4. Sustainability and CLTS: Taking Stock
The series is also available in French and Portuguese. ++++++++++
EvM-Susana ( talk) 10:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
EvM-Susana, I am not sure what the 'wider criteria' are either! JMWt ( talk) 11:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm wondering who developed the "Community-Led Total Sanitation (CLTS)" approach? I was asked to look at this article, but this method of shame is something I can't endorse. I'm sorry EvM-Susana but I could never support a method based on shame. Are there other formal approaches to changing behaviour regarding sanitation? EChastain ( talk) 01:29, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Also, does this method have any scientific support? The source for this article seems to be a primary source, and so not a reliable source for wikipedia. Also, the developer of this method: "Dr. Kamal Kar is a specialist in livestock production, agriculture and natural resources by training". I think the article needs a much wider focus, wider than just the ideas of one man. How about a compare and contract article about several methods, backed by scientific evidence on their effectiveness? EChastain ( talk) 01:55, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the general point that this article being a mess, a few points:
1. It is a work in progress. For many years it was copied-and-pasted from a copyrighted page with few inline sources. I wrote much of the content in a hurry having realised this last week, and I would argue it is considerably improved. The structure is largely mine, I am interested to hear from anyone who thinks there is a better way to present the information.
2. It is about a system which is in widespread use in sanitation, readers are likely to come across it having heard about "Community-led Total Sanitation" or "CLTS", as there are many NGOs and governments who are using these terms.
3. I have fairly strong feelings about CLTS, but I see it as my responsiblity to record things here dispassionately, providing as many relevant references as possible for readers to understand the terms used and the way they are used in practice. WP:NPOV states that "articles must not take sides, but should explain the sides, fairly and without bias." The use of shame is controversial and criticism should be included in the relevant section. Pointing this out has no bearing on the rest of the article, this article should not read as if it is promoting or detracting from CLTS.
4. Kamal Kar was the originator of the concept, he is seen as being an expert in community engagement, which is why Wateraid asked him to intervene in the Bangladesh situation. Kar developed and engaged many with his ideas, but they have grown far beyond him. It is therefore important to acknowledge his contribution as well as the way the thing has expanded beyond his influence. I agree that the latter can be improved and clarified - again this is a work in progress.
5. Self-published sources are used to reference this article because few peer-reviewed articles exist. WP:SPS says "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications." The majority of cites here are from NGO practice documents. Whilst it might be better to use sources in peer-reviewed books, these generally do not exist about CLTS IMO. I would be very interested to see them included if anyone can find them.
6. Finally I think we should all keep in mind the dangers of trying to argue from authority. Many of the previous editors of this page are very conversant with the ideas behind CTLS, psychology, sanitation etc. The point is not to try to get to 'the truth' but to focus on the way that the terms are being used and applied so that a person coming here finds the content useful. If there is a relevant reference which supports your view, use it. If you have no references, then I'm afraid it can't be used here.
JMWt ( talk) 08:48, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Regarding outcome studies, this source appears to pinpoint the problems regarding evaluating CLTS.
Is there a way to reduce the use of jargon and acronyms? It's difficult to read now. And in the sources, what is WEPA, PLANUSA and UNC? (The latter two are funded by the Gates foundation, but other than that?) The "about" section on the websites don't seem to give much info.
Please excuse these questions/comments. I'm trying to get a grip on this subject matter. Thanks! EChastain ( talk) 14:53, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
This article appears to rely on reports of non-profits and other primary sources and not on secondary sources per reliable sources guidelines. Also, this is an opinion piece. So I tagged the article, but feel free to remove it when the sources are improved. EChastain ( talk) 15:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
From WP:SPS
Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
- the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim;
- it does not involve claims about third parties;
- it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the source;
- there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
- the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Further, the opinion piece is used to support the claim: "There have been cases of fines (monetary and non-monetary), withholding of entitlements, public taunting, posting of humiliating pictures and even violence."
I was asked to look at this article. So I did and I'm giving feedback. I believe the tag is warranted. But, whatever. I'll butt out. EChastain ( talk) 15:51, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
This UNICEF articles has info on outcomes for CLTS in Sierra Leone, Zambia, India, Nepal with what worked and what didn't in each country. It also has references. Community Approaches to Total Sanitation EChastain ( talk) 00:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
JMW, sorry. I had an ( edit conflict) and didn't know you were doing a wholesale revert because of one word you felt was wrong. The thing to do is to use the talk pages to discuss things, rather than reverting huge chunks. I recommend this avenue for resolving differences on all wikipedia articles. EChastain ( talk) 21:32, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
I reckon this article is really improving nicely, thanks to the work of talk and EChastain! Thank you! Hopefully more people will take an interest in this article as well, because CLTS is really pretty "big". It think it's time to look for photos. I couldn't find any on Wikimedia Commons so far, which is partly due to the fact that we don't have any on the SuSanA flickr database either. I have asked CLTS Knowledge Hub if we can use any form their photo contest: http://forum.susana.org/forum/categories/5-clts-community-led-total-sanitation-and-other-community-led-approaches/10752-photo-competition-picturing-clts . There is also a Flickr account of CLTS Foundation with good photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/communityledtotalsanitation/ I looked at a couple and they say all rights reserved, so I will e-mail them to find out if we can use any. EvM-Susana ( talk) 08:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
I received an answer on the Commons regarding the category:
the creation of the category and the creation of the template were both inspired by practical considerations from the fact that there are many files from the same source. For more information about the upload of those files, you can probably ask the users EvM-Susana and Fæ. Because the files from that organization are copied to Commons from the flickr account of the organization, I understand EvM-Susana's comment on en.wp as meaning that the files copied to Commons from that account are those that are available there, and that's why EvM-Susana would try to find files from other sources, including flickr accounts of other people, to copy to Commons.
I looked at the category creation. Elitre (A) created the category on the commons and EvM-Susana made several revisions last October. Since then another editor has removed a few categories and added one. So that's as it stands now. EChastain ( talk) 19:33, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
But they are not under an open licence. I will try to convince them to change the licence type for their whole photostream. Or if not then at least for some photos that we can use (they already agreed to the latter and I am waiting for them to select some photos). EvM-Susana ( talk) 20:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
About the hidden category on commons which were files from the SuSanA flickr transfer: could you give me the link where I can access them because perhaps it's easy for me to suggest which categories they could go into. I have to admit Commons is for me still a big question mark. I only use it to insert photos into articles, usually those that came originally from the SuSanA photostream. I am going to insert in the next few days some photos on helminths so stay tuned... But I have never used it to browse EvM-Susana ( talk) 20:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
For you, click on File:Facultative pond (6898412198).jpg and you will see in tiny print at the bottom: "Files created by Sustainable Sanitation Alliance (SuSanA)". (But first, make sure to set your preferences on the Commons to "show hidden categories".)
Strange that you have to ask for permission. It says on the Commons: "SuSanA is kindly donating pictures from its Flickr photo database for Wikimedia Commons. Pictures in SuSanA's Flickr photo database were taken by various SuSanA members who all have an interest to share their sanitation photos as widely as possible." And that Flickr photostream you want images from is included as part of the SusanA database.
If you upload any images, please put them in categories when you do, or you might not find them later. The "Flickr tags" are very misleading, so don't count on them. Editors on the Commons get overwhelmed with huge uploads that are badly categorised. I think that's why so many of your images weren't categorised at all. A typical scenario is that editors looked at some images of kids, or a school, or water categorised under "urine" or something that looked wrong to them, removed the cats and couldn't figure out where to put it. If there's at least a location, an editor confused about "what the heck is this" will categorise by place. Otherwise, they'll leave with no cat. (There are many thousands that will never have cats there.) EChastain ( talk) 22:16, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
No, the flickr photostream of CLTS is NOT part of the flickr photostream of SuSanA - they are two different organisations. Just like the photostream might be of Joe Blogg. EvM-Susana ( talk) 23:33, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
There are some publications on testing the effectiveness of CLTS by Plan USA - are any of these useful to incorporate into this article, do they count as secondary sources? http://scalingclts.web.unc.edu/resource-library/ EvM-Susana ( talk) 09:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
It's a great source for why there's no reliable date on the effectiveness of CLTS. EChastain ( talk) 00:00, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Community-led total sanitation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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I would like to see the first sentence define the term CLTS better, while using language that regular readers would find more familiar. "Triggering" is introduced without being explained well. Readability is a problem I'd like to work on. The first sentence gets a 1 (sic) out of 100 on the Flesch readability scale. The Wikipedia goal is 60-70. In the below attempt at improving readability I only got the score up to 41, but you can see what I have in mind.
Community-led total sanitation (CLTS) is an approach used to improve sanitation n a community. Ending the practice of open defecation is the goal. The term "triggering" describes processes that bring about spontaneous and long-term changes to sanitation practices.
My question for those watching this page is how open are you to readability edits? Often experts don't want to give up on fine details, in order to make the topic more accessible to the general reader. My goal is to preserve accuracy, while introducing some clarity. PlanetCare ( talk) 21:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
This reference from USAID could be used to add further updates to the article (I don't have time right now to do it myself but perhaps someone else has; if not, I will come back to it later): see here EMsmile ( talk) 15:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)