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guys, seriously. there are three articles on communism , the communisty party, communist state, and communism.
what you seriously need is a 'history of communism' article, which all three of these articles try to mishmash together in some god awful POV mess. then you need to figure out that 'communism' 'communist state' and 'communist party' are .. what? different things? or the same? and the articles overlap so much, it is simply ridiculous.
Regarding this edit and comment by User:172 deleting a paragraph with links to Soviet culture and Soviet popular culture [1]. The article Communist state was merged with the article Marxist-Leninist government on April 11, 2004 by User:Mikkalai, see [2]. Thus the article after the merger properly contains information regarding both the formal governmental structure of the Communist state but also the practical consequences of Marxist-Leninist rule. Thus the reason given for deleting the paragraph is inappropriate as it is not "off-topic". Fred Bauder 14:07, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)
"This article includes both an exposition of the formal and semi-formal mechanisms of government and constitutional workings in communist countries and a more general discussion of the practical consequences of communist rule." Fred Bauder 15:30, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)
Starting separate articles is the idea. The paragraph I put in this article were just brief introductions and links to those. During the 1960s through the 1980s there was a great deal of interest in the West in Soviet culture and Soviet popular culture and a number of books were written about it. For example, the book by Hedrick Smith, a New York Times corresponent who was posted in Moscow, The Russians, Quadrangle/The New York Times Book Co., 1975, hardcover, 527 pages, ISBN 0812905210. On page 105 the author makes the following generalization, "In their authoritarian environment, from childhood onward Russians acquire an acute sense of place and propriety, of what is accepted and what is not, of what they can get away with and what they had better not attempt. And they conform to their surroundings, playing the roles that are expected of them. With a kind of deliberate schizophrenia, they divide their existance into their public lives and their private lives, and distinquish between "official" relationships and personal relationships. This happens anywhere to some degree, of course, but Russians make this division more sharply than others because of political pressures for conformity. So they adopt two very different codes of behavior for their two lives - in one, they are taciturn, hypocritical, careful, cagey, passive; in the other, they are voluble, honest, direct, open, passionate. In one, thoughts and feelings are held in check. ("Our public life is a living lie," commented an experimental physicist) In the other, emotions flow warmly, without moderation." That is just one Western observer. For our purposes how would you briefly summarize such an observation? I had very little contact with Soviet citizens, but I remember some very distinctive behavior from the one group of traveling Soviets I did encounter. "taciturn, hypocritical, careful, cagey, passive" described them very well. (members of a Soviet orchestra). Fred Bauder 18:49, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)
I commented out the following pieces that fell out of context or . If someone cares, may resore it properly. Mikkalai 15:19, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
(!-- ?which term? The term is also used to refer to historical instances of totalitarian socialism (as distinct from democratic socialism). --
(!-- There are various kinds of communism or socialism; some kinds of communism are varieties of
ideology, while others are terms for practices or styles of governance.
Marxism holds--among other things--that human history has had and will have a developmental structure, alternating between slow development of technology/economy (and the according philosophy/religion) and a rapidly changing short period of technology/economy. --)
The whole article is a masterpiece of a writing in communist ideology: chaotic, repetitive, lacking overall logic and thus difucult to argue with. Mikkalai 15:19, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
One of the innovations Lenin introduced into Marxism was the notion of the vanguard party taking the lead, analyzing working class interests, voicing them effectively and on the behalf of the working class, seizing power. While these conclusions are arguably implicit in Marxism they were never part of the thought of Marx, or Engels. Fred Bauder 15:02, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)
I'm trying to reorganize the entire lot of communism and related pages, with some others, into some series that makes a little more sense. This is one of the pages we've cited for editing. Details are available at Talk:Communism and Talk:Communist Ideology. This reorganization is still in a hypothetical stage, so no reorganization is likely to take place in the near future. I'd appreciate input from anyone who'd like to participate in a constructive way. -- Oceanhahn 22:58, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Referring to "apologists" for so-called communist states is inappropriate. The word has pejorative connotations. I have replaced this change with something more neutral.
As Oceanhahn mentioned, these pages are in the process of reorganisation. The section on deaths allegedly caused by socialist governments will be greatly expanded so that both sides of this issue can be presented adequately. Shorne 17:21, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Many scholars who exhibit bias toward Communism cannot fairly be described as Communists, certainly they are not Party members, apologists is a much more neutral term, see historical revisionism, particularly the book In Denial, ISBN 1893554724 Fred Bauder 18:12, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
It is hard for me to describe those who deny various well established facts about the history of Marxism-Leninism in neutral terms. I tend to ascribe intent to deceive to them, but a more commonsense view is that they either lack information or don't trust information which is available or else believe information which I would discount. Apologetics has part of its bad odor from the Catholic church. According to Page 2 of In Denial scholars of Communist history are divided into "traditionalists" who see communism as "profoundly antidemocratic in theory and practice" and who in the American context saw the American government as legitimate and saw Communists as being subordinate to a foreign power and the "revisionist" school which takes "a benign view of communism arguing that Marxism-Leninism embodied the most idealist dreams of mankind and that American Communists were among the most heroic fighters for soical justice in the nation's history. Revisionists saw American democracy as a fraud camouflaging capitalist oppression and aggressive imperialism." I think "left-leaning scholars" describes them well enough; "revisionist" is probably best reserved for Khrushchev and later Soviet reformers. As to capitalization, I use it to refer to an actual organization whether in power or not. Fred Bauder 22:15, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
This is a problem we share. I will do my best; you do yours. Fred Bauder 11:40, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
Please don't do this to articles with long history without reading talk archives and without discussion at least two weeks long. Mikkalai 07:42, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It is estimated by critics of Marxism-Leninism that deaths during the 20th century due to Communist revolutions, repression, induced famines, and failed social and economic experimentation number about 100 million in addition to tens of millions of man-years spent in the concentration camps of the gulag and laogai.
I am dismayed and indignant that Shorne removed the part above. The sentence above is NPOV. It says that critics of Marxism-Leninism claim that comunnist rule is responsible for death of millions of people. And this is true, they claim so. The sentence does not allege that the estimate is necessarily correct, this is why it is NPOV. Anyway, it is evident that communists intentionally killed a huge amount of people, and that the communist economical system lead to horrible (and well documented) situations, when millions of people died out of hunger near public granaries full of grain, just because the central plan was based on false assumptions. To try to hide that truth is deeply immoral. It increases the likelihood that a similar situation will happen in the future, because we will not pay attention to that horrible experience. And to try to hide the truth, to remove correct information and to accuse it of being "dishonest" for no specified reason is a disgrace for a Wikipedian. I would like to express my deep disapproval for that kind of lack of respect for human life, for the truth and for other Wikipedians. Boraczek 10:00, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This phrase, "when millions of people died out of hunger near public granaries full of grain" is not quite true. What happened is that the authorities took so much grain from the countryside (which they felt was holding out on them) and shipped it to the cities that people in the countryside were plunged into a general famine. Fred Bauder 11:25, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
I could not agree more with this: "To try to hide that truth is deeply immoral. It increases the likelihood that a similar situation will happen in the future, because we will not pay attention to that horrible experience. And to try to hide the truth, to remove correct information and to accuse it for being "dishonest" for no specified reason is a disgrace for a Wikipedian." That is what make the struggle to make accurate information available worthwhile. Fred Bauder 11:25, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
And Shorn, please read what he said about NPOV, he understands it, that is why I support both critical and apologetic statements, if they are properly attributed. Fred Bauder 11:25, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
The links I posted were to Stalinist and Trotskyist sites, the Stalinist site takes a somewhat different viewpoint from the two Trotskyist sites. They make some points, but their POV vitiates any attack on the information as such. Fred Bauder 21:48, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
I guess you would prefer "reform through labor" camp? Fred Bauder 21:48, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
I'll only add that in some of these camps (working in mines) the ratio of mortality amounted to 50%. Boraczek 22:08, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The death rate of those who worked in the uranium mines of Kolyma was 100%. Fred Bauder 01:49, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
You say, "If even more people would have died under the ancien régime, for example, that death toll would actually be a feather in communism's cap. What are the facts?" The facts are that a few thousand prisoners were executed during the nineteenth century by the Czarist government. What would have happened if the the Bolshevik coup had failed is unknowable. Fred Bauder 21:48, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
BTW Demographical statistics show that as far as life expectance is concerned, communist European countries were considerably less friendly than European capitalist countries. For example (and this is only one example out of many), the life expectance in communist Poland in 1960s decreased, which was something unique in the whole world. Boraczek 22:02, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Shorne how can you say the deaths of forty thousand children a day is responsible because of capitalism? I think thats an off assumption. It isnt the United States fault that kids in Ethiopia are dieing of malnutrition or Russia's fault for the poor living conditions in Mozambique.
When you finally get to the arbitration committee, no one is going to be asking you to prove or disprove content of articles. What will be looked at is whether you are willing to produce evidence for your edits, which you don't, and whether you insist on deleting material for which references have been provided, which you do. Fred Bauder 02:00, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
Boraczek 20:11, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No one who looks seriously at the book will say that it is anything but crude propaganda. Wrong. It is the truth that some communists try to hide. Boraczek 20:23, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The nice round number 100,000,000 casues protest merely by its zeroes; it just calls for suspicion of sensationalism. Besides, putting a lump number is anti-scientific at least and iditic at most. I remember a mockery of a Polish cartoonist Zbigniew Lengren on this kind of various "tolls". In one of his bios he wrote a table, kind of (I don't remember exactly):
Age: 35 Kids: 3 Wife: 1 Dog: 1 Cartoons 237 ____ Total: 269
The "100 millon" looks just like the 269 for me. Mikkalai 19:28, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
All what you wrote must be covered somewhere in wikipedia and referred from there. Otherwise this nice number is rightfully considered as nothing but propaganda, and definitely is not "information". 100,000,000... Why not 150,000,000? Mikkalai 20:17, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If you want to question the number of deaths, please add a note in the article, instead of removing the estimate. Boraczek 20:38, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks Fred for the added section. I don't question numbers for particular countries, but now it is clearly seen that the authors of the Black Book were digging out all possible and impossible ways to collect the craved 100M. Pure propaganda, discrediting the valid cause. Mikkalai 21:21, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the new section, Fred Bauder! :-) Unlike Mikkalai, I am convinced that communists are responsible for all or most of the listed deaths. And calling the data "pure propaganda" is just trying to deny the truth. But anyone can get his own opinion and this is what NPOV is about. Boraczek 21:40, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Black Book of Communism is simply a compodium of generally accepted facts about the problems of communism. It makes no attempt to catalog successes or to explain the problems of capitalism or how socialism might resolve those problems. Fred Bauder 23:15, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
The (NPOV) policy says that we should fairly represent all sides of a dispute, and not make an article state, imply, or insinuate that any one side is correct. ( Wikipedia:Neutral point of view)
Shorne, in my humble opinion, you clearly violate the NPOV rules. You do not let another opinions be present. You just decide what is "acceptable" or "unacceptable" (as you write in "summaries") and delete what you don't agree with instead of discussing it or editing the article so as to make it represent different sides of a dispute. Please stop behaving like this. I respect your opinion, but please don't impose it on others. If you don't stop violating NPOV, I'll opt for starting an appropriate procedure. Boraczek 00:06, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Unacceptable. See the talk page. We would need to discuss each of these claims one by one. Simply quoting them is not enough; nor does it give any basis for discussing their validity.
In my humble opinion, this and your previous statements suggest that you don't understand what NPOV and discussion pages are about. I think a discussion page is not a place where we should try to find the only undeniable truth. This is a task for historians and other scientists, not for Wikipedians. The discussion page is a place for discussing the article. And the article should present all conflicting views without asserting them ( Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). So we should not discuss if the data contained in Black Book of Communism are correct or not. This is a task for historians. We should mention that Black Book of Communism, which is a reliable source, despite your slanders, give these data. And we can write that many writers (actually, many left-wing writers) don't agree with them. Doing this, we give everyone a chance to decide which view appeals to them more. Wikipedia is for information, not for indoctrination. Please think it over. Boraczek 00:47, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Communist state" is a constitutional definition referring to a type of government in which a Marxist-Leninist party and the state are embedded in each other. The coverage must be comparable to that of the articles dealing with government types (e.g., constitutional monarchy, monarchy, confederation, republic, federal republic). The section on the "crimes of Communism" is thus just as out of place as placing an extended analysis of the human rights records of Swaziland and Nepal in the article about constitutional monarchy noting that they are both nominally constitutional monarchies. This section must be removed entirely; and the issue is not NPOV but rather relevance. (It would be appropriate in the article about Communism but not this article.) I'd remove it myself, but I didn't want to get caught in the Shone/VeryVerily crossfire. 172 01:17, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It was I believe Fred Bauder who made the editorial decision to expand the information into its own section as opposed to the one sentence (which was also the subject of a revert war, in which I am only one among many warriors). I have no set opinion on the level of coverage, only the necessity of covering the "downside" of communist states in some manner. Near everything writen by Shorne is hugely biased and wholly out of compliance with policy, and Gzornenplatz goes on the attack wherever I am found, so their involvement predictably brought escalation. Very Verily 06:31, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Knock off the revert dueling, or this page will be protected from editing. Please make a serious effort to discuss differences here on the talk page. -- Infrogmation 06:19, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have to say that Shorne doesn't seem to allow any compromise. He just presents his extremist views and puts them in articles. He discards all opinions other than his own and all data not supporting his views (even the generally known and obvious facts) as "lies and propaganda" and remove them from articles without any discussion or adding comments. Then he reverts changes made by other Wikipedians. His strategy is to make a reversion and then try to engage opponents in endless and ineffective discussions, so as to let his version stay. It is enough to look at the articles he edited - I guess he was involved in an edit war in each of them. I hope I am wrong, but I'm afraid the problem will persist until Shorne is banned, because I can't see any respect for other points of views and NPOV on his side. Boraczek 08:22, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is the way Shorne discusses a matter: The text cannot stay. End of argument. (quote from Talk: People's Republic of China) Boraczek 08:42, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'll answer in the Talk:Communism page. Boraczek 10:02, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Bolshevism and Menshevism were also two early forms of communism-in-practice, advocated by Russian communists in the late 19th and early 20th century; the Mensheviks favored peaceful change, while Bolsheviks called for, and eventually organised, a revolution, putting power in the hands of the Soviets of workers and peasants.
The number is out of the blue. Even the quotation from the more than generous Black Book gives 90 mln for what is known as "communist states" Mikkalai 07:02, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
User VeryVerily's intransigence and impossible behaviour have left me no option but to request mediation. People who have anything to add to my request are asked to visit Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. Shorne 11:03, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I will join your request. Fred Bauder 12:03, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
It is not POV to include comments by critics. Unless you, Shorne, or anyone else can disprove that critics of Marxism-Leninism allege 100 million deaths, then I think the section as written can and should stay. Mackensen 00:16, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You persistently mischaracterize disputes as right wing v left wing. I see most disputes with you as between objective reporting of facts, however unpleasant, which is essential to scientific socialism, with propagandistic efforts to suppress and distort information resulting in articles which a strong fantasy component. Fred Bauder 14:53, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
The "gentle Laotian people" comment strikes me as being stereotypical at worst, POV at best. It's not the sort of comment that belongs in a serious article. I think its best to avoid getting into the habit of generalising in this way and attributing a particular character to an entire culture whether it be "gentle Laotians", "humourless Germans", "drunken Irish" etc. AndyL 02:54, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think there's some confusion here about the theory of state capitalism. According to followers of the theory it's not just China and Vietnam that are "State captalist" ie not just those "Communist states" that are more market oriented, but *all* the Soviet bloc states. The theory of state capitalism was used to describe the Soviet Union *under Stalin*! Others who use the theory (some Stalinists) use it to describe the Soviet bloc under Khruschev and Brezhnev but it's not a term used just to describe market oriented states so the use in this article is inaccurate. I think what people are trying to say is that China and Vietnam are considered " market socialist" AndyL 03:00, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'll say , "no evidence of production for profit"! but plenty of evidence for production at a loss. Fred Bauder 21:01, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Trotsky himself was quite clear though that the Soviet Union under Stalin was not capitalist in any way, shape or form. However, your criticisms of state capitalist theory applied to Stalin's USSR also applies to Khruschev and Brezhnev's USSR. AndyL 06:42, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What's wrong with speaking of Cuba and all as state-capitalist? Yes, that term was originally applied to the USSR and its satellites, but doesn't it apply to Cuba, China, and the rest as well? (I'd rather just say that China and Vietnam, at least, are capitalist pure and simple, but that would be POV.) Shorne 03:19, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The context in which it was used was incorrect:
The implication above is that some Marxists consider China and Vietnam to be state capitalist because they are "organized to a greater or lesser extent around the market" but Cuba and North Korea not to be. This is incorrect, those who believe in state capitalist theory see North Korea and other Stalinist states as state capitalist as well as China ie the theory of state capitalism has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not a system is organized around the market. Whoever wrote the paragraph above was using the term "state capitalism" when what I think they meant was "market socialism". State Capitalism does not mean "capitalist-like socialism" it rather refers to an analysis that even a system where the state has a monopoly on the means of production and where the internal market has been abolished remains capitalist, but a different form of capitalism, because the state still competes with capitalist states. According to the most widespread version of state capitalist theory the Soviet Union became state capitalist in 1930 or earlier. AndyL 04:25, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Two main ideological groups hold the "state capitalist" analysis. The neo-Trotskyists of the International Socialist Tendency (ie those influenced by Tony Cliff) and their offshoots say the Soviet Union became state capitalist under Stalin and that the rest of the Soviet bloc, PRC etc were state capitalist from their inception - some anarchists who propound the theory would say the Soviet Union was state capitalist under Lenin (orthodox Trotskyists reject the state capitalist analysis entirely). Some anti-Revisionists/Stalinists hold that the Soviet Union became state capitalist under Khruschev as did the Soviet bloc (how isn't something they adequately explain IMHO). In any case, both groups would call the Soviet bloc state cap long before any sort of market experimentation was introduced which is my point as to why the way it was used in the article was wrong. Anyway, glad you see the point I'm trying to make. AndyL 17:30, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Alternatively, the phrase "state capitalism" is used correctly in this sentence elsewhere in the article:
I'm unhappy with the map of communist countries. It's rather deceptive to list Ethiopia and Mozambique as having been communist. Even Angola doesn't really count: the MPLA never had enough control over the country to implement socialist policies. These and certain other countries should perhaps be shown in pale pink, if at all.
Another map that we might add would show the extent of communist rule today: one colour for the five self-styled socialist states, another for the ones with large areas under the control of communists insurrections (Nepal is the best example, with half or more of its territory now controlled by the Maoist revolutionaries), another for areas with elected communist governments (two or three states in India, for example). It might be hard to do a good job of this. What do people think? Shorne 04:01, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Marxist-Leninist governments in some countries can best be described as ephemeral. They were a sort of high-water mark, if you will, of world revolution... Seemed like a great flood, at the time. Fred Bauder 21:07, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Ethiopia was declared a "people's republic" in the late 1980s ("people's democratic republic" to be precise). AndyL 21:17, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm withdrawing my offer to make that map -- You've gone back to supporting Ruy Lopez in his vandalistic reversion of History of Modern Greece (you even remove the category Category:Greek history which if nothing else shows you two don't give a damn about improving the article). One might say that *that* subject has nothing to do with this one, but since my opinion is now that the lot of you are vandals that have formed a mob of communist solidarity in order to streamroll over everyone else, refusing to discuss even the slightest of changes, and since I think you lot should be banned from editing Wikipedia ever again, I'd not be willing to accept any data you'd provide me for the map in good faith, and I am too busy to crosscheck them piece by piece myself. So, no map or any other collaboration is possible under those conditions. Aris Katsaris 00:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The African states in the map are fine. In fact, the map misses out Somalia, which should be added in the same Salmon colour as the other states that became communist in the 60's and 70's. Despite personal opinions, those countries were:
(1) all ruled by a party claiming to follow a Marxist-Leninist path (2) all had the ruling communist or communist-professing party as being the sole legal party in the country (3) most adopted official titles/names in keeping with traditional communist state names of the time, like "People's Republic" or "People's Democratic Republic". Even Somalia was renamed the "Somali Democratic Republic" which initially wouldn't sound very communist until one looks at East Germany's official title of the "German Democratic Republic" and Afghanistan placing "the Democratic Republic" before its name after the communists took over.
In fact the map also misses out Grenada. It might also be informative to colour in Syria, Iraq and Libya in a different colour (perhaps light pink) to show that they were ruled by parties or individuals that either proclaimed their state "socialist" and/or adhered to "arab socialism". - Anonymous user 06:03, 14 Jan 2005
Shorne, this edit [5] removing the language, "North Korea is the last remaining communist state following the pattern set by the Stalinist Soviet Union." with the comment, "Appreciate 172's compromise. Removed comment about North Korea as "Stalinist"; it's not clear what that means or how it could be demonstrated." is not acceptable. People visit North Korea and report on what they see. People escape from North Korea and report on life there. But see Chapter 22, in The Black Book of Communism especially page 564, "100,000 have died in Party purges and...1.5 million...in concentration camps." No proof is ever enough for you? You're welcome to add properly attributed bit information about how wonderful it is there, but not to remove the reports of the victims. Fred Bauder 21:39, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Depends what you mean by Stalinist. We had this debate at Talk:Korean Workers Party. I had originally described the party as an orthodox Stalinist party (or words to that effect) and it was pointed out that in fact the KWP and the Kim's have prioritized Juche over Marxism-Leninism and have deviated from Stalinism in various other ways. From a layperson's perspective they are Stalinist in that it is certainly authoritiarian, there's a personality cult etc but North Korea deviates from Stalinism in a number of ways. I think its fair to say the country is the closest communist state in existence today to the orthodox Stalinist model but we shouldn't say they are Stalinist full stop.(see the Juche article) In fact, North Korea blends Stalinism with aspects of Buddhism and Confucianism. AndyL 22:48, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, might be difficult to find an adequate phrase. Totalitarian, but none of you seem to like that. Fred Bauder 22:51, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Well, I would use it personally (though it is POV) and as shorthand I do describe North Korea as Stalinist. Anyway, the formula we came up with in the Korean Workers Party article is to say:
Removed: It should be noted that the term "communism" and ideology has a history that predates Marx, however, closely associated with libertarian socialism (also known as anarchism, though that term has come to be associated with other political philosophies).
The sentence removed has a factual basis, but I have no reference at hand. Fred Bauder 13:35, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
The sentence is pretty meaningless, particulrly the part in parentheses. What other "political philosophies" has the term anarchism become associated with? As for the main part of the sentence "anarchism" or "libertarian socialism" as a modern philosophy originated at about the same time as Marxism and co-existed in the First International. AndyL 17:54, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I actually ran across some information on this, turned out to be different from what I remembered, but look at: Communism#History_of_use_of_the_word_.22communism.22
I come to this page for some editing work and find it protected. So I take a look over the Talk page to see if I can help solve the dispute. But, to my surprise, I find nothing new since the last time I've been here. So where exactly is the dispute? Why is the page protected? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:32, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Anyone who looks at the page history can see Shorne is lying when he says "The page is protected because VeryVerily was vandalising it". (a) The dispute I had was "Ruy Lopez" changing "common speech" to "right-wing speech", a flagrantly inappropriate edit, as AndyL also pointed out. (b) That was not what led to the page protection; it was the move war, which I had no part in at all. Very Verily 00:12, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I removed this as term for communalist societies. It is never used for that, in any of its definitions. Juan Ponderas 04:35, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Which one are you implying to be communism? Can't argue until I know which. But here's a difference; communitarians are socially conseravtive, while communists are socially liberal. Communitarianism doesn't draw anything from Marxist philosophy; your just taking some broad statements that might apply to both. Juan Ponderas 00:15, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For a discussion of the censorship in this article of the human rights crimes of the communist states, see communism.
Removed from list:
Unless the corresponding articles write something about communism, these states are out. Mikkalai 03:45, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why? Firstly there is no corresponding article, one hasn't been created yet. Secondly, give one good reason as to why under any definition, Burma was not a socialist state at the time? It was being ruled by a party proclaiming to be socialist (whether the party actually was truly socialist is a matter of philosophical thought rather than hard facts, just as it is for every other "communist state") and which was the only legal party. Any one-party state in which the party is "socialist" or "communist" was pretty much always defined as a communist state. By the standard you've set, half the states listed as defunct should be removed, whether they were communist or not, and what's the point in that? Shouldn't there be a comprehensive list so that people will learn about these states, maybe get interested and then actually contribute to or create articles about these states when they were under socialist rule?
It seems that 172 is of like mind to Mikkalai. Have either of you actually researched Burma before deleting the entry? A google search of "Socialist Burma" will even bring up an Encyclopaedia Britannica article (or the stub of one, if you don't subscribe) which deals with what the writers of the Encyclopaedia refer to as "the socialist takeover". see: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=52611 If Encyclopaedia Britannica acknowledges a "socialist Burma", then why the trouble here? Doesn't everyone wish for Wikipedia to become one of the most accurate and comprehensive encyclopaedias in the world? And how can that be achieved if it refuses to take for fact what older, well established (and heavily researched) printed encyclopaedias already have? Now what is strange is that the body of the article goes on to outline what is or is not a communist state and then when Burma drops into that definition, it is labelled as not being socialist/communist. After all "a communist state is a state ruled by a single political party which declares its allegiance to the principles of Marxism-Leninism." So Burma was ruled by a single political party from 1974 to 1988 which declared as its aim to try to lead Burma to true Socialism (in the most common sense of the word) and drew on marxist and buddhist influences (similar to China and its use of communism with a chinese face or values, or Khruschev's many roads to socialism). Then in the article we have "The term communist state originated from the fact that most of the states in question were or are ruled by parties that called themselves "Communist Party of [country]". Thus, they became known as Communist Party-ruled states, or simply communist states. However most of these states called themselves socialist, since in Marxist political theory, socialism is the intermediate stage in reaching communism, which is a condition with no state, so that communist state is considered an oxymoron." So if there really is no such thing as a "communist state" and there only socialist states, then what is the problem with Burma? Also, was it not true that some "communist states" were ruled by parties that did not call themselves "communist parties" but had such titles as "people's revolutionary party", "workers' party", "social democratic and labour party", "socialist unity party", "labour party" and "revolutionary socialist party"? Would states ruled by these parties somehow be disqualified from being "communist parties? No, the article says as much. Under the section of "What is or isn't a "communist state", a splendid definition of what constitutes such a state is outlined and Burma was "a state where a Communist Party (or some other communist group) held power within the context of a single-party system of government." since the Burma Socialist Programme Party was the sole legal party (or the single party) from 1974 to 1988. So either accept that Burma was a socialist/communist state for just 14 years or change the definition (which would probably mean cutting known communist states from the list).
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guys, seriously. there are three articles on communism , the communisty party, communist state, and communism.
what you seriously need is a 'history of communism' article, which all three of these articles try to mishmash together in some god awful POV mess. then you need to figure out that 'communism' 'communist state' and 'communist party' are .. what? different things? or the same? and the articles overlap so much, it is simply ridiculous.
Regarding this edit and comment by User:172 deleting a paragraph with links to Soviet culture and Soviet popular culture [1]. The article Communist state was merged with the article Marxist-Leninist government on April 11, 2004 by User:Mikkalai, see [2]. Thus the article after the merger properly contains information regarding both the formal governmental structure of the Communist state but also the practical consequences of Marxist-Leninist rule. Thus the reason given for deleting the paragraph is inappropriate as it is not "off-topic". Fred Bauder 14:07, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)
"This article includes both an exposition of the formal and semi-formal mechanisms of government and constitutional workings in communist countries and a more general discussion of the practical consequences of communist rule." Fred Bauder 15:30, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)
Starting separate articles is the idea. The paragraph I put in this article were just brief introductions and links to those. During the 1960s through the 1980s there was a great deal of interest in the West in Soviet culture and Soviet popular culture and a number of books were written about it. For example, the book by Hedrick Smith, a New York Times corresponent who was posted in Moscow, The Russians, Quadrangle/The New York Times Book Co., 1975, hardcover, 527 pages, ISBN 0812905210. On page 105 the author makes the following generalization, "In their authoritarian environment, from childhood onward Russians acquire an acute sense of place and propriety, of what is accepted and what is not, of what they can get away with and what they had better not attempt. And they conform to their surroundings, playing the roles that are expected of them. With a kind of deliberate schizophrenia, they divide their existance into their public lives and their private lives, and distinquish between "official" relationships and personal relationships. This happens anywhere to some degree, of course, but Russians make this division more sharply than others because of political pressures for conformity. So they adopt two very different codes of behavior for their two lives - in one, they are taciturn, hypocritical, careful, cagey, passive; in the other, they are voluble, honest, direct, open, passionate. In one, thoughts and feelings are held in check. ("Our public life is a living lie," commented an experimental physicist) In the other, emotions flow warmly, without moderation." That is just one Western observer. For our purposes how would you briefly summarize such an observation? I had very little contact with Soviet citizens, but I remember some very distinctive behavior from the one group of traveling Soviets I did encounter. "taciturn, hypocritical, careful, cagey, passive" described them very well. (members of a Soviet orchestra). Fred Bauder 18:49, Aug 16, 2004 (UTC)
I commented out the following pieces that fell out of context or . If someone cares, may resore it properly. Mikkalai 15:19, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
(!-- ?which term? The term is also used to refer to historical instances of totalitarian socialism (as distinct from democratic socialism). --
(!-- There are various kinds of communism or socialism; some kinds of communism are varieties of
ideology, while others are terms for practices or styles of governance.
Marxism holds--among other things--that human history has had and will have a developmental structure, alternating between slow development of technology/economy (and the according philosophy/religion) and a rapidly changing short period of technology/economy. --)
The whole article is a masterpiece of a writing in communist ideology: chaotic, repetitive, lacking overall logic and thus difucult to argue with. Mikkalai 15:19, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
One of the innovations Lenin introduced into Marxism was the notion of the vanguard party taking the lead, analyzing working class interests, voicing them effectively and on the behalf of the working class, seizing power. While these conclusions are arguably implicit in Marxism they were never part of the thought of Marx, or Engels. Fred Bauder 15:02, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)
I'm trying to reorganize the entire lot of communism and related pages, with some others, into some series that makes a little more sense. This is one of the pages we've cited for editing. Details are available at Talk:Communism and Talk:Communist Ideology. This reorganization is still in a hypothetical stage, so no reorganization is likely to take place in the near future. I'd appreciate input from anyone who'd like to participate in a constructive way. -- Oceanhahn 22:58, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Referring to "apologists" for so-called communist states is inappropriate. The word has pejorative connotations. I have replaced this change with something more neutral.
As Oceanhahn mentioned, these pages are in the process of reorganisation. The section on deaths allegedly caused by socialist governments will be greatly expanded so that both sides of this issue can be presented adequately. Shorne 17:21, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Many scholars who exhibit bias toward Communism cannot fairly be described as Communists, certainly they are not Party members, apologists is a much more neutral term, see historical revisionism, particularly the book In Denial, ISBN 1893554724 Fred Bauder 18:12, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
It is hard for me to describe those who deny various well established facts about the history of Marxism-Leninism in neutral terms. I tend to ascribe intent to deceive to them, but a more commonsense view is that they either lack information or don't trust information which is available or else believe information which I would discount. Apologetics has part of its bad odor from the Catholic church. According to Page 2 of In Denial scholars of Communist history are divided into "traditionalists" who see communism as "profoundly antidemocratic in theory and practice" and who in the American context saw the American government as legitimate and saw Communists as being subordinate to a foreign power and the "revisionist" school which takes "a benign view of communism arguing that Marxism-Leninism embodied the most idealist dreams of mankind and that American Communists were among the most heroic fighters for soical justice in the nation's history. Revisionists saw American democracy as a fraud camouflaging capitalist oppression and aggressive imperialism." I think "left-leaning scholars" describes them well enough; "revisionist" is probably best reserved for Khrushchev and later Soviet reformers. As to capitalization, I use it to refer to an actual organization whether in power or not. Fred Bauder 22:15, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)
This is a problem we share. I will do my best; you do yours. Fred Bauder 11:40, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
Please don't do this to articles with long history without reading talk archives and without discussion at least two weeks long. Mikkalai 07:42, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It is estimated by critics of Marxism-Leninism that deaths during the 20th century due to Communist revolutions, repression, induced famines, and failed social and economic experimentation number about 100 million in addition to tens of millions of man-years spent in the concentration camps of the gulag and laogai.
I am dismayed and indignant that Shorne removed the part above. The sentence above is NPOV. It says that critics of Marxism-Leninism claim that comunnist rule is responsible for death of millions of people. And this is true, they claim so. The sentence does not allege that the estimate is necessarily correct, this is why it is NPOV. Anyway, it is evident that communists intentionally killed a huge amount of people, and that the communist economical system lead to horrible (and well documented) situations, when millions of people died out of hunger near public granaries full of grain, just because the central plan was based on false assumptions. To try to hide that truth is deeply immoral. It increases the likelihood that a similar situation will happen in the future, because we will not pay attention to that horrible experience. And to try to hide the truth, to remove correct information and to accuse it of being "dishonest" for no specified reason is a disgrace for a Wikipedian. I would like to express my deep disapproval for that kind of lack of respect for human life, for the truth and for other Wikipedians. Boraczek 10:00, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This phrase, "when millions of people died out of hunger near public granaries full of grain" is not quite true. What happened is that the authorities took so much grain from the countryside (which they felt was holding out on them) and shipped it to the cities that people in the countryside were plunged into a general famine. Fred Bauder 11:25, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
I could not agree more with this: "To try to hide that truth is deeply immoral. It increases the likelihood that a similar situation will happen in the future, because we will not pay attention to that horrible experience. And to try to hide the truth, to remove correct information and to accuse it for being "dishonest" for no specified reason is a disgrace for a Wikipedian." That is what make the struggle to make accurate information available worthwhile. Fred Bauder 11:25, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
And Shorn, please read what he said about NPOV, he understands it, that is why I support both critical and apologetic statements, if they are properly attributed. Fred Bauder 11:25, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
The links I posted were to Stalinist and Trotskyist sites, the Stalinist site takes a somewhat different viewpoint from the two Trotskyist sites. They make some points, but their POV vitiates any attack on the information as such. Fred Bauder 21:48, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
I guess you would prefer "reform through labor" camp? Fred Bauder 21:48, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
I'll only add that in some of these camps (working in mines) the ratio of mortality amounted to 50%. Boraczek 22:08, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The death rate of those who worked in the uranium mines of Kolyma was 100%. Fred Bauder 01:49, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
You say, "If even more people would have died under the ancien régime, for example, that death toll would actually be a feather in communism's cap. What are the facts?" The facts are that a few thousand prisoners were executed during the nineteenth century by the Czarist government. What would have happened if the the Bolshevik coup had failed is unknowable. Fred Bauder 21:48, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
BTW Demographical statistics show that as far as life expectance is concerned, communist European countries were considerably less friendly than European capitalist countries. For example (and this is only one example out of many), the life expectance in communist Poland in 1960s decreased, which was something unique in the whole world. Boraczek 22:02, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Shorne how can you say the deaths of forty thousand children a day is responsible because of capitalism? I think thats an off assumption. It isnt the United States fault that kids in Ethiopia are dieing of malnutrition or Russia's fault for the poor living conditions in Mozambique.
When you finally get to the arbitration committee, no one is going to be asking you to prove or disprove content of articles. What will be looked at is whether you are willing to produce evidence for your edits, which you don't, and whether you insist on deleting material for which references have been provided, which you do. Fred Bauder 02:00, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
Boraczek 20:11, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No one who looks seriously at the book will say that it is anything but crude propaganda. Wrong. It is the truth that some communists try to hide. Boraczek 20:23, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The nice round number 100,000,000 casues protest merely by its zeroes; it just calls for suspicion of sensationalism. Besides, putting a lump number is anti-scientific at least and iditic at most. I remember a mockery of a Polish cartoonist Zbigniew Lengren on this kind of various "tolls". In one of his bios he wrote a table, kind of (I don't remember exactly):
Age: 35 Kids: 3 Wife: 1 Dog: 1 Cartoons 237 ____ Total: 269
The "100 millon" looks just like the 269 for me. Mikkalai 19:28, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
All what you wrote must be covered somewhere in wikipedia and referred from there. Otherwise this nice number is rightfully considered as nothing but propaganda, and definitely is not "information". 100,000,000... Why not 150,000,000? Mikkalai 20:17, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If you want to question the number of deaths, please add a note in the article, instead of removing the estimate. Boraczek 20:38, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks Fred for the added section. I don't question numbers for particular countries, but now it is clearly seen that the authors of the Black Book were digging out all possible and impossible ways to collect the craved 100M. Pure propaganda, discrediting the valid cause. Mikkalai 21:21, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the new section, Fred Bauder! :-) Unlike Mikkalai, I am convinced that communists are responsible for all or most of the listed deaths. And calling the data "pure propaganda" is just trying to deny the truth. But anyone can get his own opinion and this is what NPOV is about. Boraczek 21:40, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Black Book of Communism is simply a compodium of generally accepted facts about the problems of communism. It makes no attempt to catalog successes or to explain the problems of capitalism or how socialism might resolve those problems. Fred Bauder 23:15, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
The (NPOV) policy says that we should fairly represent all sides of a dispute, and not make an article state, imply, or insinuate that any one side is correct. ( Wikipedia:Neutral point of view)
Shorne, in my humble opinion, you clearly violate the NPOV rules. You do not let another opinions be present. You just decide what is "acceptable" or "unacceptable" (as you write in "summaries") and delete what you don't agree with instead of discussing it or editing the article so as to make it represent different sides of a dispute. Please stop behaving like this. I respect your opinion, but please don't impose it on others. If you don't stop violating NPOV, I'll opt for starting an appropriate procedure. Boraczek 00:06, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Unacceptable. See the talk page. We would need to discuss each of these claims one by one. Simply quoting them is not enough; nor does it give any basis for discussing their validity.
In my humble opinion, this and your previous statements suggest that you don't understand what NPOV and discussion pages are about. I think a discussion page is not a place where we should try to find the only undeniable truth. This is a task for historians and other scientists, not for Wikipedians. The discussion page is a place for discussing the article. And the article should present all conflicting views without asserting them ( Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). So we should not discuss if the data contained in Black Book of Communism are correct or not. This is a task for historians. We should mention that Black Book of Communism, which is a reliable source, despite your slanders, give these data. And we can write that many writers (actually, many left-wing writers) don't agree with them. Doing this, we give everyone a chance to decide which view appeals to them more. Wikipedia is for information, not for indoctrination. Please think it over. Boraczek 00:47, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"Communist state" is a constitutional definition referring to a type of government in which a Marxist-Leninist party and the state are embedded in each other. The coverage must be comparable to that of the articles dealing with government types (e.g., constitutional monarchy, monarchy, confederation, republic, federal republic). The section on the "crimes of Communism" is thus just as out of place as placing an extended analysis of the human rights records of Swaziland and Nepal in the article about constitutional monarchy noting that they are both nominally constitutional monarchies. This section must be removed entirely; and the issue is not NPOV but rather relevance. (It would be appropriate in the article about Communism but not this article.) I'd remove it myself, but I didn't want to get caught in the Shone/VeryVerily crossfire. 172 01:17, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It was I believe Fred Bauder who made the editorial decision to expand the information into its own section as opposed to the one sentence (which was also the subject of a revert war, in which I am only one among many warriors). I have no set opinion on the level of coverage, only the necessity of covering the "downside" of communist states in some manner. Near everything writen by Shorne is hugely biased and wholly out of compliance with policy, and Gzornenplatz goes on the attack wherever I am found, so their involvement predictably brought escalation. Very Verily 06:31, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Knock off the revert dueling, or this page will be protected from editing. Please make a serious effort to discuss differences here on the talk page. -- Infrogmation 06:19, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have to say that Shorne doesn't seem to allow any compromise. He just presents his extremist views and puts them in articles. He discards all opinions other than his own and all data not supporting his views (even the generally known and obvious facts) as "lies and propaganda" and remove them from articles without any discussion or adding comments. Then he reverts changes made by other Wikipedians. His strategy is to make a reversion and then try to engage opponents in endless and ineffective discussions, so as to let his version stay. It is enough to look at the articles he edited - I guess he was involved in an edit war in each of them. I hope I am wrong, but I'm afraid the problem will persist until Shorne is banned, because I can't see any respect for other points of views and NPOV on his side. Boraczek 08:22, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This is the way Shorne discusses a matter: The text cannot stay. End of argument. (quote from Talk: People's Republic of China) Boraczek 08:42, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'll answer in the Talk:Communism page. Boraczek 10:02, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Bolshevism and Menshevism were also two early forms of communism-in-practice, advocated by Russian communists in the late 19th and early 20th century; the Mensheviks favored peaceful change, while Bolsheviks called for, and eventually organised, a revolution, putting power in the hands of the Soviets of workers and peasants.
The number is out of the blue. Even the quotation from the more than generous Black Book gives 90 mln for what is known as "communist states" Mikkalai 07:02, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
User VeryVerily's intransigence and impossible behaviour have left me no option but to request mediation. People who have anything to add to my request are asked to visit Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. Shorne 11:03, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I will join your request. Fred Bauder 12:03, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
It is not POV to include comments by critics. Unless you, Shorne, or anyone else can disprove that critics of Marxism-Leninism allege 100 million deaths, then I think the section as written can and should stay. Mackensen 00:16, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
You persistently mischaracterize disputes as right wing v left wing. I see most disputes with you as between objective reporting of facts, however unpleasant, which is essential to scientific socialism, with propagandistic efforts to suppress and distort information resulting in articles which a strong fantasy component. Fred Bauder 14:53, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
The "gentle Laotian people" comment strikes me as being stereotypical at worst, POV at best. It's not the sort of comment that belongs in a serious article. I think its best to avoid getting into the habit of generalising in this way and attributing a particular character to an entire culture whether it be "gentle Laotians", "humourless Germans", "drunken Irish" etc. AndyL 02:54, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think there's some confusion here about the theory of state capitalism. According to followers of the theory it's not just China and Vietnam that are "State captalist" ie not just those "Communist states" that are more market oriented, but *all* the Soviet bloc states. The theory of state capitalism was used to describe the Soviet Union *under Stalin*! Others who use the theory (some Stalinists) use it to describe the Soviet bloc under Khruschev and Brezhnev but it's not a term used just to describe market oriented states so the use in this article is inaccurate. I think what people are trying to say is that China and Vietnam are considered " market socialist" AndyL 03:00, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'll say , "no evidence of production for profit"! but plenty of evidence for production at a loss. Fred Bauder 21:01, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Trotsky himself was quite clear though that the Soviet Union under Stalin was not capitalist in any way, shape or form. However, your criticisms of state capitalist theory applied to Stalin's USSR also applies to Khruschev and Brezhnev's USSR. AndyL 06:42, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What's wrong with speaking of Cuba and all as state-capitalist? Yes, that term was originally applied to the USSR and its satellites, but doesn't it apply to Cuba, China, and the rest as well? (I'd rather just say that China and Vietnam, at least, are capitalist pure and simple, but that would be POV.) Shorne 03:19, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The context in which it was used was incorrect:
The implication above is that some Marxists consider China and Vietnam to be state capitalist because they are "organized to a greater or lesser extent around the market" but Cuba and North Korea not to be. This is incorrect, those who believe in state capitalist theory see North Korea and other Stalinist states as state capitalist as well as China ie the theory of state capitalism has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not a system is organized around the market. Whoever wrote the paragraph above was using the term "state capitalism" when what I think they meant was "market socialism". State Capitalism does not mean "capitalist-like socialism" it rather refers to an analysis that even a system where the state has a monopoly on the means of production and where the internal market has been abolished remains capitalist, but a different form of capitalism, because the state still competes with capitalist states. According to the most widespread version of state capitalist theory the Soviet Union became state capitalist in 1930 or earlier. AndyL 04:25, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Two main ideological groups hold the "state capitalist" analysis. The neo-Trotskyists of the International Socialist Tendency (ie those influenced by Tony Cliff) and their offshoots say the Soviet Union became state capitalist under Stalin and that the rest of the Soviet bloc, PRC etc were state capitalist from their inception - some anarchists who propound the theory would say the Soviet Union was state capitalist under Lenin (orthodox Trotskyists reject the state capitalist analysis entirely). Some anti-Revisionists/Stalinists hold that the Soviet Union became state capitalist under Khruschev as did the Soviet bloc (how isn't something they adequately explain IMHO). In any case, both groups would call the Soviet bloc state cap long before any sort of market experimentation was introduced which is my point as to why the way it was used in the article was wrong. Anyway, glad you see the point I'm trying to make. AndyL 17:30, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Alternatively, the phrase "state capitalism" is used correctly in this sentence elsewhere in the article:
I'm unhappy with the map of communist countries. It's rather deceptive to list Ethiopia and Mozambique as having been communist. Even Angola doesn't really count: the MPLA never had enough control over the country to implement socialist policies. These and certain other countries should perhaps be shown in pale pink, if at all.
Another map that we might add would show the extent of communist rule today: one colour for the five self-styled socialist states, another for the ones with large areas under the control of communists insurrections (Nepal is the best example, with half or more of its territory now controlled by the Maoist revolutionaries), another for areas with elected communist governments (two or three states in India, for example). It might be hard to do a good job of this. What do people think? Shorne 04:01, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The Marxist-Leninist governments in some countries can best be described as ephemeral. They were a sort of high-water mark, if you will, of world revolution... Seemed like a great flood, at the time. Fred Bauder 21:07, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Ethiopia was declared a "people's republic" in the late 1980s ("people's democratic republic" to be precise). AndyL 21:17, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I'm withdrawing my offer to make that map -- You've gone back to supporting Ruy Lopez in his vandalistic reversion of History of Modern Greece (you even remove the category Category:Greek history which if nothing else shows you two don't give a damn about improving the article). One might say that *that* subject has nothing to do with this one, but since my opinion is now that the lot of you are vandals that have formed a mob of communist solidarity in order to streamroll over everyone else, refusing to discuss even the slightest of changes, and since I think you lot should be banned from editing Wikipedia ever again, I'd not be willing to accept any data you'd provide me for the map in good faith, and I am too busy to crosscheck them piece by piece myself. So, no map or any other collaboration is possible under those conditions. Aris Katsaris 00:01, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The African states in the map are fine. In fact, the map misses out Somalia, which should be added in the same Salmon colour as the other states that became communist in the 60's and 70's. Despite personal opinions, those countries were:
(1) all ruled by a party claiming to follow a Marxist-Leninist path (2) all had the ruling communist or communist-professing party as being the sole legal party in the country (3) most adopted official titles/names in keeping with traditional communist state names of the time, like "People's Republic" or "People's Democratic Republic". Even Somalia was renamed the "Somali Democratic Republic" which initially wouldn't sound very communist until one looks at East Germany's official title of the "German Democratic Republic" and Afghanistan placing "the Democratic Republic" before its name after the communists took over.
In fact the map also misses out Grenada. It might also be informative to colour in Syria, Iraq and Libya in a different colour (perhaps light pink) to show that they were ruled by parties or individuals that either proclaimed their state "socialist" and/or adhered to "arab socialism". - Anonymous user 06:03, 14 Jan 2005
Shorne, this edit [5] removing the language, "North Korea is the last remaining communist state following the pattern set by the Stalinist Soviet Union." with the comment, "Appreciate 172's compromise. Removed comment about North Korea as "Stalinist"; it's not clear what that means or how it could be demonstrated." is not acceptable. People visit North Korea and report on what they see. People escape from North Korea and report on life there. But see Chapter 22, in The Black Book of Communism especially page 564, "100,000 have died in Party purges and...1.5 million...in concentration camps." No proof is ever enough for you? You're welcome to add properly attributed bit information about how wonderful it is there, but not to remove the reports of the victims. Fred Bauder 21:39, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Depends what you mean by Stalinist. We had this debate at Talk:Korean Workers Party. I had originally described the party as an orthodox Stalinist party (or words to that effect) and it was pointed out that in fact the KWP and the Kim's have prioritized Juche over Marxism-Leninism and have deviated from Stalinism in various other ways. From a layperson's perspective they are Stalinist in that it is certainly authoritiarian, there's a personality cult etc but North Korea deviates from Stalinism in a number of ways. I think its fair to say the country is the closest communist state in existence today to the orthodox Stalinist model but we shouldn't say they are Stalinist full stop.(see the Juche article) In fact, North Korea blends Stalinism with aspects of Buddhism and Confucianism. AndyL 22:48, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yes, might be difficult to find an adequate phrase. Totalitarian, but none of you seem to like that. Fred Bauder 22:51, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)
Well, I would use it personally (though it is POV) and as shorthand I do describe North Korea as Stalinist. Anyway, the formula we came up with in the Korean Workers Party article is to say:
Removed: It should be noted that the term "communism" and ideology has a history that predates Marx, however, closely associated with libertarian socialism (also known as anarchism, though that term has come to be associated with other political philosophies).
The sentence removed has a factual basis, but I have no reference at hand. Fred Bauder 13:35, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)
The sentence is pretty meaningless, particulrly the part in parentheses. What other "political philosophies" has the term anarchism become associated with? As for the main part of the sentence "anarchism" or "libertarian socialism" as a modern philosophy originated at about the same time as Marxism and co-existed in the First International. AndyL 17:54, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I actually ran across some information on this, turned out to be different from what I remembered, but look at: Communism#History_of_use_of_the_word_.22communism.22
I come to this page for some editing work and find it protected. So I take a look over the Talk page to see if I can help solve the dispute. But, to my surprise, I find nothing new since the last time I've been here. So where exactly is the dispute? Why is the page protected? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:32, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Anyone who looks at the page history can see Shorne is lying when he says "The page is protected because VeryVerily was vandalising it". (a) The dispute I had was "Ruy Lopez" changing "common speech" to "right-wing speech", a flagrantly inappropriate edit, as AndyL also pointed out. (b) That was not what led to the page protection; it was the move war, which I had no part in at all. Very Verily 00:12, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I removed this as term for communalist societies. It is never used for that, in any of its definitions. Juan Ponderas 04:35, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Which one are you implying to be communism? Can't argue until I know which. But here's a difference; communitarians are socially conseravtive, while communists are socially liberal. Communitarianism doesn't draw anything from Marxist philosophy; your just taking some broad statements that might apply to both. Juan Ponderas 00:15, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For a discussion of the censorship in this article of the human rights crimes of the communist states, see communism.
Removed from list:
Unless the corresponding articles write something about communism, these states are out. Mikkalai 03:45, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why? Firstly there is no corresponding article, one hasn't been created yet. Secondly, give one good reason as to why under any definition, Burma was not a socialist state at the time? It was being ruled by a party proclaiming to be socialist (whether the party actually was truly socialist is a matter of philosophical thought rather than hard facts, just as it is for every other "communist state") and which was the only legal party. Any one-party state in which the party is "socialist" or "communist" was pretty much always defined as a communist state. By the standard you've set, half the states listed as defunct should be removed, whether they were communist or not, and what's the point in that? Shouldn't there be a comprehensive list so that people will learn about these states, maybe get interested and then actually contribute to or create articles about these states when they were under socialist rule?
It seems that 172 is of like mind to Mikkalai. Have either of you actually researched Burma before deleting the entry? A google search of "Socialist Burma" will even bring up an Encyclopaedia Britannica article (or the stub of one, if you don't subscribe) which deals with what the writers of the Encyclopaedia refer to as "the socialist takeover". see: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=52611 If Encyclopaedia Britannica acknowledges a "socialist Burma", then why the trouble here? Doesn't everyone wish for Wikipedia to become one of the most accurate and comprehensive encyclopaedias in the world? And how can that be achieved if it refuses to take for fact what older, well established (and heavily researched) printed encyclopaedias already have? Now what is strange is that the body of the article goes on to outline what is or is not a communist state and then when Burma drops into that definition, it is labelled as not being socialist/communist. After all "a communist state is a state ruled by a single political party which declares its allegiance to the principles of Marxism-Leninism." So Burma was ruled by a single political party from 1974 to 1988 which declared as its aim to try to lead Burma to true Socialism (in the most common sense of the word) and drew on marxist and buddhist influences (similar to China and its use of communism with a chinese face or values, or Khruschev's many roads to socialism). Then in the article we have "The term communist state originated from the fact that most of the states in question were or are ruled by parties that called themselves "Communist Party of [country]". Thus, they became known as Communist Party-ruled states, or simply communist states. However most of these states called themselves socialist, since in Marxist political theory, socialism is the intermediate stage in reaching communism, which is a condition with no state, so that communist state is considered an oxymoron." So if there really is no such thing as a "communist state" and there only socialist states, then what is the problem with Burma? Also, was it not true that some "communist states" were ruled by parties that did not call themselves "communist parties" but had such titles as "people's revolutionary party", "workers' party", "social democratic and labour party", "socialist unity party", "labour party" and "revolutionary socialist party"? Would states ruled by these parties somehow be disqualified from being "communist parties? No, the article says as much. Under the section of "What is or isn't a "communist state", a splendid definition of what constitutes such a state is outlined and Burma was "a state where a Communist Party (or some other communist group) held power within the context of a single-party system of government." since the Burma Socialist Programme Party was the sole legal party (or the single party) from 1974 to 1988. So either accept that Burma was a socialist/communist state for just 14 years or change the definition (which would probably mean cutting known communist states from the list).