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...requires greater rationality or wisdom for the planners, or voters, or workers' council members, than is consistent with the bounded rationality of the species.
-- Christofurio 20:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
It is clarified as a criticism. And of course communism is inherently naive and/or not humanly possible, thats the point! ;) [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly Sam. Thanks for the support. Criticism of an ideological position often cocomes from an "antipathetic ideological position"! What a shock. The NPOV thing to do is to state the various antipathetic positions fairly, and some of our communist friends seem averse to having that done here. -- Christofurio 17:13, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
The criticism is so naive I don't understand how such clever people as you, Sam can fall for it. Please explain how communism requires greater rationality for voters, council members, planners, etc. than, say, for President of the US of A, the SEC commission and Federal Reserve?
Let us forget for a second that the article is about communist ideology, not about its communist state. I understand that much of criticism comes from the thought that communists were planning everything, and this is humanly impossible, no doubt. But this is a naive college-grade understanding of communism, similar to the rumors that communists have everything common: common wives, common shoes and common toothbrushes. Another misunderstanding is that plans were something chiseled in stone. Of course there were not. They were always corrected through the course of the time. Sitll, please, this is not criticism of communism. This is criticism af any centrally planned economy, and hence belongs to the latter article.
Still another point, who told you that in communist state everything was planned for best of all people? That would require inhuman amount of planning for sure. In Soviet Union the planning was for good of the state in the first turn. People were treated as livestock; bare minimality. Mikkalai 19:33, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And one more: about alleged imposibility of total planning. If it were so, modern microchips could not possibly have beed designed and you wouldn't have this wonderful computer to type your naive arguments in. Ever heard about hierarchical approach to compex tasks? Mikkalai 19:44, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As opposed to those brilliant Communist theorists (whose favored states only collapsed due to imperialist pressure) Trey Stone 03:30, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Communist in political structure, reformist in economic structure. Trey Stone 04:25, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Communism#Human_nature. This ridiculous false dicotomy between "fear of the whip" and "common benevolence" (what the heck is that?) as forms of incentives is insane. Please look up reinforcement, Operant conditioning, and economics. Fear of punishment is not a major factor in the economies of the west (outside of prison, perhaps), and I think its easier to describe say.. Pol Pots communism as having been a slavery-based economy than even the pre-civil war united states south (even ancient egypt or feudalism had alot more to the economy than fear as an incentive, and not only financialy). [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To such objections, communists reply that human nature is misrepresented by capitalists. For example, under slavery, slave owners said blacks were lazy and stupid and that whippings were necessary for productivity. Thus, communists say under what they consider capitalist wage slavery, that the same type of arguments are made as an excuse for the capitalists to expropriate surplus value from workers. This fails to take into account the role of reinforcers in Behavioral psychology, and confuses punishing reinforcers (whippings) with positive reinforcers ( money).
?how is human psychology a straw man? And how does communism reward superior performance? Isn't that in contridiction to "to each according to his need"? [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your reply is nonsensical. We live in a state of abundance because we have a powerful economic base, derived from capitalism. I am in Germany, and while the country on the whole is well off, the eastern half had (and still has) a serious disadvantage due to having been ruined by communism. And if Marxism supplies "operant conditioning" of "fame" instead of cash rewards, why were even ballerina's and Olympic athletes (positions rewarded largely by fame in the west) especially well paid in communism, while "collective" farm laborers were periodically starved to death w artificial famines regardless of how hard they worked, often on the very land which had been stolen from them by the "egalitarianism" of communism. I think that's the sort of fame they would have preferred to do without, and has little to do with either business psychology or operant conditioning. 10 pounds of propaganda doesn't buy you one pound of bread. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
luke} A lot of people think that human nature is inherantly greedy and that is the main arguement that communism can't work. i disagree, human nature can change. i refuse to believe that the British binge drinking or the US gun crime cultures are there forever and cannot change. Lenin turned the entire russian anti-semitic attitudes around in a few short revolutionary years, unfortunately Stalin reverted to it back.
The basic criticism that it would be impossible to plan a communist society is fine. Someone wants it here, and it belongs here.
Nonetheless, it is replete with a total lack of understanding of Marxism, communism and so forth. These critics of communism know next-to-nothing about Marxism or communism, as I have stated before.
The second and third sentences are: "Theoretically, in a market system, scarce skills and resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands. Without an efficient market system, prices can send the wrong signals to consumers and planners, resulting in decisions that don't reflect the choices they would make if they knew the actual costs and competing demands for those resources."
First of all the idea that "scarce...resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands" pertains to the capitalist system, not the "market" system. If one looks at the life of a commodity as production -> exchange -> consumption, how is the exchange/market system of the USSR different than the US? A worker goes into a store and exchanges rubles (or dollars) for a loaf of bread. They are both market systems (of course, it should go without saying that the USSR socialist system would be different than a communist system).
Also, that this is how capitalist systems works is just of one various competing theories. Of course, it is the one capitalists within the capitalists system prefer (although not necessarily workers). The early bourgeois economists, Adam Smith, David Ricardo etc. certainly did not believe this, and in fact shared Marx's view that value came from labor, that prices were determined by labor time and so forth. In fact, this was the accepted view when Marx began his studies and Marx agreed with it. There really was no argument against this until Hermann Heinrich Gossen published The Development of the Laws of Exchange among Men and of the Consequent Rules of Human Action, the ideas of which were fleshed out by the subjective theory of value school (marginalists). In fact, Marxism (and all of classical economics prior to HH Gossen and friends) is counterposed to this new theory of value.
Anyhow, that's just the second and third sentence. As I said, the basic ideas of this section are fine, the criticism that communism is not plannable, but STV (marginalists) ideas are just that - ideas, theories, not fact and should be marked as such. So I will be rewriting this section. Ruy Lopez 09:55, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, the first paragraph is fairly straightforward, but the next three paragraphs having to do with the skyscraper are vague and make little sense. It is about how in capitalism, a skyscraper can be planned better than in communism. There are three paragraphs leading up to an argument and then - no argument. The last paragraph is leading up to this non-existent argument: "Critics contend that the implementation of communism in the sense described above would involve supplanting precisely these market and contract conditions that make planning possible. It would be planning instead of haggling, rather than planning within the context of haggling. That is what they contend is not practicable." OK, we have an example of a skyscraper, a description of how capitalists build a skyscraper and then a simple assertion that STVers don't think communists could build a skyscraper. The reason why is not given.
I know Amish people get together and do barn-raisings in basically a communist manner - each gives according to ability and each gets according to need. Of course, a skyscraper is more complex than a barn, but if one looks back 75 years, the tallest "skyscraper" in the world was less than 800 feet high, and most of what has enabled taller buildings to be built have been advances in engineering, and the factors leading to one wanting to go to the trouble of building such a large building. Beyond the architect, building a skyscraper is not that complex - you build a floor, then build another floor, and just keep going up. Nonetheless, all of this is more of an opinion than a reason. I see no argument made here. Ruy Lopez 10:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Suppose, for purposes of comparison, we were writing a passage about criticisms of Darwinism. I might write, "There are defenders of the views of Larmark, who believe that acquired characteristics can be inherited." Would it be fair for you to change that to this? "There are, though Darwinians disagree, defenders of the view of Larmark, with whom Darwinians disagree, who believe although Darwinians disagree that acquired characteristics can be inherited, although Darwinians disagree." Does that sound NPOV? AT what point are such continued interruptions of a point simply to state and restate and re-restate the mere fact of disagreement an unfair undermining of an effort to make a point that ought to be made? Frankly, I believe there is such a point and you have crossed it. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
time congealed in a commodity.
You don't "understand" it if you need to characterize it as "magical". The market price of something is the price at whichit is being exchanged or exchangeable. You are making a pointless distinction. You seem to object to the significance of exchange prices on the grounds that they involve only a "binary decision" along the lines accept/reject. But ... so what? Digital computers work on the basis of binary on/off switches. Enough binary choices and one has a calculation -- and a result that carries information. What is "magical" about this? That you don't like it, I accept. But you make negative characterizations about its being "magic" and "mysticism" which turns out to be just new ways of restating the fact that you don't want to acknowledge the information-carrying significance of prices. Exchanged prices, of course. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
The USSR had markets too, where do you think workers went to buy bread, shirts and such things? The local market.
Anyhow, as I said before, these are two different theories. At a certain point one reaches diminishing returns discussing this, we're both simply restating over and over the differences between the LTV and STV theories. Ruy Lopez 13:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that true? I thought atheism was a common denominator. All this talk about early christian / amish / shaker communism-like activities makes my head spin. What's the deal? I thought religion was the opiate of the masses and we were to find our solace in praying to Marx or some such ;) Maybe Juche?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:42, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Communism and communist experiments existed before Marx and, in fact, before Marx most experiments with communism were of a religious nature, particularly among Christians. AndyL 12:46, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All successful communist societies have had a religious basis. They have been of moderate size, from a few hundred to a few thousand members. Their religious basis has varied from radical interpretations of Christianity such as Oneida Community to quite fundamentalist and conservative such as the Shakers of Ann Lee, many were based on German pietism. These communities were very prosperous and were the envy of their less-favored neighbors [2]. Secular efforts to imitate them such as New Harmony were unsuccessful. Fred Bauder 14:17, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Of course communism doesn't require atheism. Intrigue 00:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All Communist states (perhaps there are a few exceptions) have been atheist, yes. Recall Marx describing religion as a pointless distraction from "revolution." J. Parker Stone 01:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Early communism may not have required atheism but modern theories, and certainly Marxism, do. While everyone knows Marx's "Reiligion is the opiate of the masses" quote (I'd love to hear what he'd think of TV today), the real opposition to religion comes from its class nature. All communists strive to create a classless society and the clergy have traditionally maintained their own customs, dress codes, ideals and organisations. They are arguably the most distinct of all classes GreatGodOm 29 June 2005 13:19 (UTC)
The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand. If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off. The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness. But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would. This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo. Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making the other choices or no exchange at all. Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware. When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it. Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses. Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value. Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.-- Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
??? I don't know where to start with this! As a piece of 'market-advocacy' it is an interesting perspective, but it is not an NPOV treatment of the subject. Intrigue 15:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's an interesting point of view, but it's far from fact. Intrigue 03:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's because I am a PHP script. It's fine to quote this as a theory, and reference who thinks it, it is just that presenting it as uncontested fact is not ok. Beep beep. Intrigue 20:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, we do reference who proposes these theories, and they are a lot easier to agree on than theories about 'levels of individual satisfaction'. I certainly don't think that this theory has 90% acceptance among any reasonable group of people. I'm disturbed by your reluctance to reference it if it really is that mainstream, I'm certainly not asking for every proponent, just one or two notable ones. Intrigue 02:08, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then you should have no problems attributing this theory to some published authors. Intrigue 19:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then we're in agreement - the theory will be referenced in the article as one advanced by these people (among others)? Intrigue 18:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, this is a theory, and should not be presented as fact, but as a theory advanced by some (perhaps many) people. I'm baffled as to why you would not want to reference this as the opinion of some notable politcal theorists. We don't need to argue about whether it is right or wrong, just say who claims it. Intrigue 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Who cares? Read some more and you can dispel your own myths and misconceptions, if you wanna stop scaring yourself over something that isn't real.-- Che y Marijuana 22:02, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Socialism involves public ownership of the means of production and private ownership of everything else, while communism abolishes private ownership altogether European socialdemocracy, wich can be considered socialism even if of a moderate kind, does not involves public ownership of the means of production. And I don't think that there has been even one communist regime that has completely abolited private ownership, nor Karl Marx ever proposed to do that. Before the october revolution I think that the world communist was just a synonim of revolutionary socialist. After that it was used to refer to those socialists that had embrassed Lenin's ideas and that looked at the October Revolution as their political source of inspiration. juliet.p from Italy
This is almost a cartoonishly bad argument. Summarizing and paraphrasing just a bit, we're now saying, "some of communism's critics complainthat revolutions are bloody. To this communists reply: if the establishment didn't resist the revolution, it could all be done quickly and peacefully."
Yes, and if Haile Selassie had gone along, Mussolini's takeover of his country would have been bloodless, too. Does anybody defend the general principle that resistance as such is evil because it forces aggressors to get violent?
I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
True, it is a complicated phenomenon, and it would be great if someone could sufficiently articulate its causes. I disagree with the reading that it involves Deng conceding to capitalism's superiority; I interpret it it as a change of views - it wouldn't be any more true to say that Mussolini by changing his opinions conceded to the superiority of fascism. Nevertheless, I will take out the quote, it'd still be nice if knowledgeable persons/people could talk more about the development of Maoist economics in China. Lacrimosus 23:32, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please no revert war, I've even included a Washington Times source for you. It's a perfectly apt and reasonable quote. 172, please leave your agenda behind. Libertas
The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I made your point again in a clear, specific way. I added that the Soviet Union and China after Stalin and Mao, respectively, continued to be single party regimes that executed political opponents of the regime, though on a far smaller scale. 172 07:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
"He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism" Then, if Stalin did it, what is it part of? BTW, Trotsky said there was no such thing as "Trotskyism" and that the term was invented by Stalinists. Trotsky preferred the term "Bolshevik-Leninism". AndyL 17:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, you smell the truth. Bah, what does that matter if it were all or some? The fact that Stalin did it, is still there. And, further up, there is no Stalinism and there is no Trotskyism. It's just invidual interpretions of how Communism should be, made of them...although I prefer the latter. However; The article is neutral and is just telling history how it happened as neutrally as possible. Although I agree and changed it from "all" to "most".-- OleMurder 06:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is interesting that Trotsky would want the term "Bolshevik-Leninism" when he spent most of his life attacking the Bolsheviks and Lenin, and only joined the Bolsheviks in July of 1917 (three months before the revolution) and still spent most of his time attacking Lenin. The solution, IMO, is to not use the term "Stalinism" when writing articles about those who upheld Stalin, or to reference it in such way as to clarify the meaning. Same should be done for Trotskyites if they feel that the term "Troskyism" is incorrect. BTW, Stalin hardly crushed all dissedents. IMO, he was a little too friendly and a good purging before his death might have prevented revisonism and the eventual collapse of the USSR, and we would have a lot more hope for the future today. -- Mista-X 16:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"there is no better Bolshevik" Lenin on Trotsky.
Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, got your point. I won't put it back. However, what about the bureaucracy part? That critique seems rather relevant to me - after all it does not only apply to centrally planned states, but to any organization that has become too big. Luis rib 22:07, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror!
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I tried my best to rework the article, it needs ALOT of work. But at least now it mentions gift economies a few times.-- Che y Marijuana 03:21, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also, the other concern is its elaboration of the idea of the gift economy's part in the movement in both the critique, and the response against it, and especially in the Stalinism vs Trotskyism area. -- Natalinasmpf 20:39, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The links which Ultramarine wants to insert are problematic for a number of reasons. Leaving aside the reliability of the sites in question for the time being, the intro to this article states that it is primarily about the theory of communism. It also states that For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state. This seems more than reasonable as a way of organising discussion of such an enormous topic. And since these links all discuss the abuses of Communist-Party regimes, they don't belong here. If we have all that stuff on the crimes of Communist regimes, then what is to stop someone adding links applauding Stalin's success in raising industrial production in the USSR etc. etc etc. It is off-topic. Why should they be here? Mattley 23:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As for the Nazism article, there is a small paragraph on it, but it makes no sense to drag it all into here. If we can't do it justice on this page, as it is a big page, it should be placed almost entirely on the other page.-- Che y Marijuana 03:06, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
My last edit removed some blantant POV from the section on "Communist states." 'Executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' have taken place in capitalist societies, but what would happen if one were to put the following in the article on capitalism:
I hope that no one will attempt to put the above in the article on capitalism. That would be absurd-- just as absurd as allowing the content that I'd removed from the article to stay up... If people are interested in detailing a critique of Communist ideology based on the actions of Communist regimes, they will have to cite the research of authortative sources laying out a relationship between Communist ideology and the actions of political authorities in cases such as Stalinist Russia, Communist China, et. al. JMaxwell 21:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Finally, some claim that wars, hunger and lack of elementary medical care, causing the deaths of millions, are the results of capitalist relations of production, making capitalism the single most violent socio-economic system in history. This view, however, is widely criticised, since most wars, famines or epidemics happened in countries that were not really capitalist.
This discussion has already taken place in other talk pages, and there's no need to repeat it here. People looking for information on communism SHOULD find some reference to what happened in countries that officially claimed to be communist. The facts are not in dispute, in any case (there's just some argument on the precise number of deaths, etc.). Your comparison with capitalism is spurious, since capitalism is not as wide-spread as you claim. Certainly not all non-communist states are capitalist. Indeed, most African countries were not capitalist, and neither was Latin America (with the possible exception of Chile). Luis rib 23:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your claim that capitalism is associated with war is a complete fallacy. I am not making this claim. My point is that all 'executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' occurred throughout history in societies where private ownership of the means of production dominated economic output. However, whether or not there was a relationship to capitalism and these occurrences is not for Wikipedia to decide, due to the NPOV policy; instead, this is a matter to be taken up in social science academic journals. In the same vein, Wikipedia cannot assert a relationship between every occurrence under Communist regimes and Communist ideology... If you want to cite authoritative source making this claim, feel free to do so. At the same time, this claim must be balanced with other POVs. JMaxwell 01:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
From Communist states:
Yawn. We're all familiar with Rummel, Conquest, Pipes, and the bulk of these authors. Copying and pasting this list, however, is not a license to write a biased diatribe blaming everything occurring under Communist regimes on Communism independent of other factors, such as the social problems inherited from the old regimes... Incidentally, if a Marxist decided to apply your reasoning to the capitalism article, he could just as easily generate a list of Marxist academics who relate capitalism to the great power rivalries leading up to the First World War, the Second World War, and the rise of fascism, and then in turn proceed to blame all the horrors and atrocities of the interwar era on capitalism. JMaxwell 04:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have kept this on my watchlist, although I had taken a vacation from it for various reasons. The article seems somewhat improved; there is at least brief mention of the horrendous consequences of the Communist adventure. This introduction:
":This article is about communism as a form of society built around a gift economy, as an ideology advocating that form of society, and as a popular movement. For issues regarding the organization of the communist movement, see the Communist party article. For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state.
represents, however, an attempt to distance the article from the realities of practical communism as we have known it in our lifetime and especially from the realities of being involved in the movement.
One note: This article is not about capitalism and the problems capitalism has. That material needs to go in the article, capitalism. Yet, the communist movement cannot be considered apart from capitalism as much of its energy comes from the consequences of capitalist organization of the economy. Fred Bauder 14:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
No, but neither is the capitalist article going to be mainly about the problems it has. The communism article is good for criticising capitalism from the perspective of a communist economic system. And cannot considered apart? You're basically saying that the immune system really shouldn't be considered apart from viruses, bacteria and cancer cells because much of the "energy" and evolutionary drive to develop an immune system comes from the consequences of pathogen organisation in the body? -- Natalinasmpf 16:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whether we have an article utopian communism or not, that is where this sort of stuff belongs: "...communism itself is stateless in theory and thus cannot be related to the actions of 20th century states." Essentially this is propaganda and is, in fact, a violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. This line served its purpose for bait and switch, but there was no sign any actual Communist movement took it seriously. Our article can include such theories but the bulk of it needs to refer to ideologies which existed or events which occured. Fred Bauder 16:04, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Concerning gift economy: how is it supposed to work on a national scale? If I want a pineapple, how will I get it in a gift economy? Do I have to go to eBay to see who is willing to give away a pineapple? Also, how does a gift economy encourage people to work and to give their best? They are not sure anyone will give them anything afterwards... Concerning capitalism and greed: the idea is that in "perfect capitalism" those that fall to the bottom work less than those that rise to the top. But "perfect capitalism" would assume that everyone has the same opportunities from the start - which is clearly not the case. Indeed, poverty itself is a reason why many people have too few alternatives. That's why any moderate capitalist will argue that the state should help the poor by providing help for better education and access to free (or at least cheap) medical services. In utopian perfect capitalism, those aids would not be necessary since no-one would be disadvantaged from the start (I know, it's a circular argument - that's why it is an utopy). Since utopias don't exist, some level of state intervention is necessary - the question is then to find the right level. BTW, getting back to Ayn Rand, that's why I said she's an extremist - she's arguing for something that cannot exist in this world. Luis rib 23:07, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Natalinasmpf, but your argument is strange. If communism is an utopia, it means it will never be possible to establish it. Thus, it is impossible to judge its merits, and therefore to say if it's good or not. In a sense, Communism would be like the Garden of Eden - another quasi-religious myth. The problem with utopias is that you cannot criticise them and not falsify them. That exactly why utopias are not scientifically valid. Sure, you can argue that communism could be so much better, but you have no means to either prove it or disprove it. I could also argue that Communism is very bad, but again would have no means to prove it. Therefore, if we confine communism to its uropian version, we should rewrite the whole article and compare it to other such utopias - like the Garden of Eden. BTW your view of capitalism is clearly totally biased, but you are right in one point: capitalism is not an utopia, it's not an ideology. That's why it is not perfect - nothing is - but at least it tries to improve things (and it certainly improved things if you compare it to feudalism or tribal economies). Seeking refuge in an utopia may be nice, but it's just a way to avoid taking difficult decisions. Luis rib 10:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No means to disprove or prove it? Communism is a pre-thought economic theory, capitalism is more of labelling of a pre-existing formula, ie. chaos theory in economics. Communism is an economic theory and pre-conceived system,, and therefore the article shoud concern it as such. Capitalism is also an economic system, and should be perceived as such. You can't demand that only the material on real-life communism be implemented, because you are forgetting that communism doesn't need to be an economic system of a nation to count as a valid theory... free software, kibbutzes, anyone? The Garden of Eden is not an ideology based on sociopolitical science.
Avoid taking difficult decisions? Are you kidding me? Oh well, continue in your defeatist attitude, but the etymylogy still remains. Communism is an economic theory, which has real life implementations, capitalism follows something similar. As long as capital (assigning an absolute value to materials to invest in) is used, its capitalism. As long as there is a commune-based society, with the correct conditions (if someone compromises, it is no longer communism), that is communism. Communism just happens to apply in more narrow situations. -- Natalinasmpf 19:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I know this will anger many people here, but shouldn't there be a section comparing Communism to other ideologies which are viewed as totalitarian? Or, if not here, maybe on Communist state? After all, it is a criticism that is often made. Also, it appears on Fascism, so at least there should be a link to that page. Waiting for your comments... Luis rib 11:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What I don't understand is the following: you (or somebody else) said that you couldn't take the USSR or China or Cambodia as an example of a communist economy because they had tried to implement it in countries that were not truly capitalist yet - and that's why it failed economically (let's forget about the human rights issues for a sec). Yet wouldn't that imply that if Communists want to succeed, they should support Capitalism in every way they can since they know that the more the society becomes capitalist, the sooner capitalism will crumble under its own contradictions and the sooner communism will emerge? Luis rib 10:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, in response to Luis' original argument, you're basically asking, shouldn't the immune system support viruses and bacteria and pathogens in every way because the they do so, the sooner the evolutionary drive to develop a better immune system emerges? The idea is to fight the pathogens, and so is the same thing for communism. -- Natalinasmpf 02:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). -- Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).
"The commies" That is just plain ignorant and babyish. Just because you may be a patriot of democracy or some such sh!t does not mean that you are right. As a matter of fact it seems that the USA tries to be totalitarian. They invade countries whose form of government they disagree with. Too bad that it was impossible for them to invade the USSR for all that time.
...requires greater rationality or wisdom for the planners, or voters, or workers' council members, than is consistent with the bounded rationality of the species.
-- Christofurio 20:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
It is clarified as a criticism. And of course communism is inherently naive and/or not humanly possible, thats the point! ;) [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly Sam. Thanks for the support. Criticism of an ideological position often cocomes from an "antipathetic ideological position"! What a shock. The NPOV thing to do is to state the various antipathetic positions fairly, and some of our communist friends seem averse to having that done here. -- Christofurio 17:13, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
The criticism is so naive I don't understand how such clever people as you, Sam can fall for it. Please explain how communism requires greater rationality for voters, council members, planners, etc. than, say, for President of the US of A, the SEC commission and Federal Reserve?
Let us forget for a second that the article is about communist ideology, not about its communist state. I understand that much of criticism comes from the thought that communists were planning everything, and this is humanly impossible, no doubt. But this is a naive college-grade understanding of communism, similar to the rumors that communists have everything common: common wives, common shoes and common toothbrushes. Another misunderstanding is that plans were something chiseled in stone. Of course there were not. They were always corrected through the course of the time. Sitll, please, this is not criticism of communism. This is criticism af any centrally planned economy, and hence belongs to the latter article.
Still another point, who told you that in communist state everything was planned for best of all people? That would require inhuman amount of planning for sure. In Soviet Union the planning was for good of the state in the first turn. People were treated as livestock; bare minimality. Mikkalai 19:33, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And one more: about alleged imposibility of total planning. If it were so, modern microchips could not possibly have beed designed and you wouldn't have this wonderful computer to type your naive arguments in. Ever heard about hierarchical approach to compex tasks? Mikkalai 19:44, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As opposed to those brilliant Communist theorists (whose favored states only collapsed due to imperialist pressure) Trey Stone 03:30, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Communist in political structure, reformist in economic structure. Trey Stone 04:25, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Communism#Human_nature. This ridiculous false dicotomy between "fear of the whip" and "common benevolence" (what the heck is that?) as forms of incentives is insane. Please look up reinforcement, Operant conditioning, and economics. Fear of punishment is not a major factor in the economies of the west (outside of prison, perhaps), and I think its easier to describe say.. Pol Pots communism as having been a slavery-based economy than even the pre-civil war united states south (even ancient egypt or feudalism had alot more to the economy than fear as an incentive, and not only financialy). [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To such objections, communists reply that human nature is misrepresented by capitalists. For example, under slavery, slave owners said blacks were lazy and stupid and that whippings were necessary for productivity. Thus, communists say under what they consider capitalist wage slavery, that the same type of arguments are made as an excuse for the capitalists to expropriate surplus value from workers. This fails to take into account the role of reinforcers in Behavioral psychology, and confuses punishing reinforcers (whippings) with positive reinforcers ( money).
?how is human psychology a straw man? And how does communism reward superior performance? Isn't that in contridiction to "to each according to his need"? [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your reply is nonsensical. We live in a state of abundance because we have a powerful economic base, derived from capitalism. I am in Germany, and while the country on the whole is well off, the eastern half had (and still has) a serious disadvantage due to having been ruined by communism. And if Marxism supplies "operant conditioning" of "fame" instead of cash rewards, why were even ballerina's and Olympic athletes (positions rewarded largely by fame in the west) especially well paid in communism, while "collective" farm laborers were periodically starved to death w artificial famines regardless of how hard they worked, often on the very land which had been stolen from them by the "egalitarianism" of communism. I think that's the sort of fame they would have preferred to do without, and has little to do with either business psychology or operant conditioning. 10 pounds of propaganda doesn't buy you one pound of bread. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
luke} A lot of people think that human nature is inherantly greedy and that is the main arguement that communism can't work. i disagree, human nature can change. i refuse to believe that the British binge drinking or the US gun crime cultures are there forever and cannot change. Lenin turned the entire russian anti-semitic attitudes around in a few short revolutionary years, unfortunately Stalin reverted to it back.
The basic criticism that it would be impossible to plan a communist society is fine. Someone wants it here, and it belongs here.
Nonetheless, it is replete with a total lack of understanding of Marxism, communism and so forth. These critics of communism know next-to-nothing about Marxism or communism, as I have stated before.
The second and third sentences are: "Theoretically, in a market system, scarce skills and resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands. Without an efficient market system, prices can send the wrong signals to consumers and planners, resulting in decisions that don't reflect the choices they would make if they knew the actual costs and competing demands for those resources."
First of all the idea that "scarce...resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands" pertains to the capitalist system, not the "market" system. If one looks at the life of a commodity as production -> exchange -> consumption, how is the exchange/market system of the USSR different than the US? A worker goes into a store and exchanges rubles (or dollars) for a loaf of bread. They are both market systems (of course, it should go without saying that the USSR socialist system would be different than a communist system).
Also, that this is how capitalist systems works is just of one various competing theories. Of course, it is the one capitalists within the capitalists system prefer (although not necessarily workers). The early bourgeois economists, Adam Smith, David Ricardo etc. certainly did not believe this, and in fact shared Marx's view that value came from labor, that prices were determined by labor time and so forth. In fact, this was the accepted view when Marx began his studies and Marx agreed with it. There really was no argument against this until Hermann Heinrich Gossen published The Development of the Laws of Exchange among Men and of the Consequent Rules of Human Action, the ideas of which were fleshed out by the subjective theory of value school (marginalists). In fact, Marxism (and all of classical economics prior to HH Gossen and friends) is counterposed to this new theory of value.
Anyhow, that's just the second and third sentence. As I said, the basic ideas of this section are fine, the criticism that communism is not plannable, but STV (marginalists) ideas are just that - ideas, theories, not fact and should be marked as such. So I will be rewriting this section. Ruy Lopez 09:55, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, the first paragraph is fairly straightforward, but the next three paragraphs having to do with the skyscraper are vague and make little sense. It is about how in capitalism, a skyscraper can be planned better than in communism. There are three paragraphs leading up to an argument and then - no argument. The last paragraph is leading up to this non-existent argument: "Critics contend that the implementation of communism in the sense described above would involve supplanting precisely these market and contract conditions that make planning possible. It would be planning instead of haggling, rather than planning within the context of haggling. That is what they contend is not practicable." OK, we have an example of a skyscraper, a description of how capitalists build a skyscraper and then a simple assertion that STVers don't think communists could build a skyscraper. The reason why is not given.
I know Amish people get together and do barn-raisings in basically a communist manner - each gives according to ability and each gets according to need. Of course, a skyscraper is more complex than a barn, but if one looks back 75 years, the tallest "skyscraper" in the world was less than 800 feet high, and most of what has enabled taller buildings to be built have been advances in engineering, and the factors leading to one wanting to go to the trouble of building such a large building. Beyond the architect, building a skyscraper is not that complex - you build a floor, then build another floor, and just keep going up. Nonetheless, all of this is more of an opinion than a reason. I see no argument made here. Ruy Lopez 10:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Suppose, for purposes of comparison, we were writing a passage about criticisms of Darwinism. I might write, "There are defenders of the views of Larmark, who believe that acquired characteristics can be inherited." Would it be fair for you to change that to this? "There are, though Darwinians disagree, defenders of the view of Larmark, with whom Darwinians disagree, who believe although Darwinians disagree that acquired characteristics can be inherited, although Darwinians disagree." Does that sound NPOV? AT what point are such continued interruptions of a point simply to state and restate and re-restate the mere fact of disagreement an unfair undermining of an effort to make a point that ought to be made? Frankly, I believe there is such a point and you have crossed it. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
time congealed in a commodity.
You don't "understand" it if you need to characterize it as "magical". The market price of something is the price at whichit is being exchanged or exchangeable. You are making a pointless distinction. You seem to object to the significance of exchange prices on the grounds that they involve only a "binary decision" along the lines accept/reject. But ... so what? Digital computers work on the basis of binary on/off switches. Enough binary choices and one has a calculation -- and a result that carries information. What is "magical" about this? That you don't like it, I accept. But you make negative characterizations about its being "magic" and "mysticism" which turns out to be just new ways of restating the fact that you don't want to acknowledge the information-carrying significance of prices. Exchanged prices, of course. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
The USSR had markets too, where do you think workers went to buy bread, shirts and such things? The local market.
Anyhow, as I said before, these are two different theories. At a certain point one reaches diminishing returns discussing this, we're both simply restating over and over the differences between the LTV and STV theories. Ruy Lopez 13:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that true? I thought atheism was a common denominator. All this talk about early christian / amish / shaker communism-like activities makes my head spin. What's the deal? I thought religion was the opiate of the masses and we were to find our solace in praying to Marx or some such ;) Maybe Juche?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:42, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Communism and communist experiments existed before Marx and, in fact, before Marx most experiments with communism were of a religious nature, particularly among Christians. AndyL 12:46, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All successful communist societies have had a religious basis. They have been of moderate size, from a few hundred to a few thousand members. Their religious basis has varied from radical interpretations of Christianity such as Oneida Community to quite fundamentalist and conservative such as the Shakers of Ann Lee, many were based on German pietism. These communities were very prosperous and were the envy of their less-favored neighbors [9]. Secular efforts to imitate them such as New Harmony were unsuccessful. Fred Bauder 14:17, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Of course communism doesn't require atheism. Intrigue 00:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All Communist states (perhaps there are a few exceptions) have been atheist, yes. Recall Marx describing religion as a pointless distraction from "revolution." J. Parker Stone 01:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Early communism may not have required atheism but modern theories, and certainly Marxism, do. While everyone knows Marx's "Reiligion is the opiate of the masses" quote (I'd love to hear what he'd think of TV today), the real opposition to religion comes from its class nature. All communists strive to create a classless society and the clergy have traditionally maintained their own customs, dress codes, ideals and organisations. They are arguably the most distinct of all classes GreatGodOm 29 June 2005 13:19 (UTC)
The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand. If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off. The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness. But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would. This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo. Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making the other choices or no exchange at all. Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware. When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it. Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses. Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value. Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.-- Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
??? I don't know where to start with this! As a piece of 'market-advocacy' it is an interesting perspective, but it is not an NPOV treatment of the subject. Intrigue 15:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's an interesting point of view, but it's far from fact. Intrigue 03:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's because I am a PHP script. It's fine to quote this as a theory, and reference who thinks it, it is just that presenting it as uncontested fact is not ok. Beep beep. Intrigue 20:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, we do reference who proposes these theories, and they are a lot easier to agree on than theories about 'levels of individual satisfaction'. I certainly don't think that this theory has 90% acceptance among any reasonable group of people. I'm disturbed by your reluctance to reference it if it really is that mainstream, I'm certainly not asking for every proponent, just one or two notable ones. Intrigue 02:08, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then you should have no problems attributing this theory to some published authors. Intrigue 19:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then we're in agreement - the theory will be referenced in the article as one advanced by these people (among others)? Intrigue 18:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, this is a theory, and should not be presented as fact, but as a theory advanced by some (perhaps many) people. I'm baffled as to why you would not want to reference this as the opinion of some notable politcal theorists. We don't need to argue about whether it is right or wrong, just say who claims it. Intrigue 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Who cares? Read some more and you can dispel your own myths and misconceptions, if you wanna stop scaring yourself over something that isn't real.-- Che y Marijuana 22:02, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Socialism involves public ownership of the means of production and private ownership of everything else, while communism abolishes private ownership altogether European socialdemocracy, wich can be considered socialism even if of a moderate kind, does not involves public ownership of the means of production. And I don't think that there has been even one communist regime that has completely abolited private ownership, nor Karl Marx ever proposed to do that. Before the october revolution I think that the world communist was just a synonim of revolutionary socialist. After that it was used to refer to those socialists that had embrassed Lenin's ideas and that looked at the October Revolution as their political source of inspiration. juliet.p from Italy
This is almost a cartoonishly bad argument. Summarizing and paraphrasing just a bit, we're now saying, "some of communism's critics complainthat revolutions are bloody. To this communists reply: if the establishment didn't resist the revolution, it could all be done quickly and peacefully."
Yes, and if Haile Selassie had gone along, Mussolini's takeover of his country would have been bloodless, too. Does anybody defend the general principle that resistance as such is evil because it forces aggressors to get violent?
I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
True, it is a complicated phenomenon, and it would be great if someone could sufficiently articulate its causes. I disagree with the reading that it involves Deng conceding to capitalism's superiority; I interpret it it as a change of views - it wouldn't be any more true to say that Mussolini by changing his opinions conceded to the superiority of fascism. Nevertheless, I will take out the quote, it'd still be nice if knowledgeable persons/people could talk more about the development of Maoist economics in China. Lacrimosus 23:32, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please no revert war, I've even included a Washington Times source for you. It's a perfectly apt and reasonable quote. 172, please leave your agenda behind. Libertas
The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What about red and or gold stars?\ Dudtz 7/30/05 3:52 PM EST
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I made your point again in a clear, specific way. I added that the Soviet Union and China after Stalin and Mao, respectively, continued to be single party regimes that executed political opponents of the regime, though on a far smaller scale. 172 07:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
"He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism" Then, if Stalin did it, what is it part of? BTW, Trotsky said there was no such thing as "Trotskyism" and that the term was invented by Stalinists. Trotsky preferred the term "Bolshevik-Leninism". AndyL 17:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, you smell the truth. Bah, what does that matter if it were all or some? The fact that Stalin did it, is still there. And, further up, there is no Stalinism and there is no Trotskyism. It's just invidual interpretions of how Communism should be, made of them...although I prefer the latter. However; The article is neutral and is just telling history how it happened as neutrally as possible. Although I agree and changed it from "all" to "most".-- OleMurder 06:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is interesting that Trotsky would want the term "Bolshevik-Leninism" when he spent most of his life attacking the Bolsheviks and Lenin, and only joined the Bolsheviks in July of 1917 (three months before the revolution) and still spent most of his time attacking Lenin. The solution, IMO, is to not use the term "Stalinism" when writing articles about those who upheld Stalin, or to reference it in such way as to clarify the meaning. Same should be done for Trotskyites if they feel that the term "Troskyism" is incorrect. BTW, Stalin hardly crushed all dissedents. IMO, he was a little too friendly and a good purging before his death might have prevented revisonism and the eventual collapse of the USSR, and we would have a lot more hope for the future today. -- Mista-X 16:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"there is no better Bolshevik" Lenin on Trotsky.
Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, got your point. I won't put it back. However, what about the bureaucracy part? That critique seems rather relevant to me - after all it does not only apply to centrally planned states, but to any organization that has become too big. Luis rib 22:07, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror!
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I tried my best to rework the article, it needs ALOT of work. But at least now it mentions gift economies a few times.-- Che y Marijuana 03:21, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also, the other concern is its elaboration of the idea of the gift economy's part in the movement in both the critique, and the response against it, and especially in the Stalinism vs Trotskyism area. -- Natalinasmpf 20:39, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The links which Ultramarine wants to insert are problematic for a number of reasons. Leaving aside the reliability of the sites in question for the time being, the intro to this article states that it is primarily about the theory of communism. It also states that For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state. This seems more than reasonable as a way of organising discussion of such an enormous topic. And since these links all discuss the abuses of Communist-Party regimes, they don't belong here. If we have all that stuff on the crimes of Communist regimes, then what is to stop someone adding links applauding Stalin's success in raising industrial production in the USSR etc. etc etc. It is off-topic. Why should they be here? Mattley 23:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As for the Nazism article, there is a small paragraph on it, but it makes no sense to drag it all into here. If we can't do it justice on this page, as it is a big page, it should be placed almost entirely on the other page.-- Che y Marijuana 03:06, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
My last edit removed some blantant POV from the section on "Communist states." 'Executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' have taken place in capitalist societies, but what would happen if one were to put the following in the article on capitalism:
I hope that no one will attempt to put the above in the article on capitalism. That would be absurd-- just as absurd as allowing the content that I'd removed from the article to stay up... If people are interested in detailing a critique of Communist ideology based on the actions of Communist regimes, they will have to cite the research of authortative sources laying out a relationship between Communist ideology and the actions of political authorities in cases such as Stalinist Russia, Communist China, et. al. JMaxwell 21:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Finally, some claim that wars, hunger and lack of elementary medical care, causing the deaths of millions, are the results of capitalist relations of production, making capitalism the single most violent socio-economic system in history. This view, however, is widely criticised, since most wars, famines or epidemics happened in countries that were not really capitalist.
This discussion has already taken place in other talk pages, and there's no need to repeat it here. People looking for information on communism SHOULD find some reference to what happened in countries that officially claimed to be communist. The facts are not in dispute, in any case (there's just some argument on the precise number of deaths, etc.). Your comparison with capitalism is spurious, since capitalism is not as wide-spread as you claim. Certainly not all non-communist states are capitalist. Indeed, most African countries were not capitalist, and neither was Latin America (with the possible exception of Chile). Luis rib 23:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your claim that capitalism is associated with war is a complete fallacy. I am not making this claim. My point is that all 'executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' occurred throughout history in societies where private ownership of the means of production dominated economic output. However, whether or not there was a relationship to capitalism and these occurrences is not for Wikipedia to decide, due to the NPOV policy; instead, this is a matter to be taken up in social science academic journals. In the same vein, Wikipedia cannot assert a relationship between every occurrence under Communist regimes and Communist ideology... If you want to cite authoritative source making this claim, feel free to do so. At the same time, this claim must be balanced with other POVs. JMaxwell 01:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
From Communist states:
Yawn. We're all familiar with Rummel, Conquest, Pipes, and the bulk of these authors. Copying and pasting this list, however, is not a license to write a biased diatribe blaming everything occurring under Communist regimes on Communism independent of other factors, such as the social problems inherited from the old regimes... Incidentally, if a Marxist decided to apply your reasoning to the capitalism article, he could just as easily generate a list of Marxist academics who relate capitalism to the great power rivalries leading up to the First World War, the Second World War, and the rise of fascism, and then in turn proceed to blame all the horrors and atrocities of the interwar era on capitalism. JMaxwell 04:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have kept this on my watchlist, although I had taken a vacation from it for various reasons. The article seems somewhat improved; there is at least brief mention of the horrendous consequences of the Communist adventure. This introduction:
":This article is about communism as a form of society built around a gift economy, as an ideology advocating that form of society, and as a popular movement. For issues regarding the organization of the communist movement, see the Communist party article. For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state.
represents, however, an attempt to distance the article from the realities of practical communism as we have known it in our lifetime and especially from the realities of being involved in the movement.
One note: This article is not about capitalism and the problems capitalism has. That material needs to go in the article, capitalism. Yet, the communist movement cannot be considered apart from capitalism as much of its energy comes from the consequences of capitalist organization of the economy. Fred Bauder 14:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
No, but neither is the capitalist article going to be mainly about the problems it has. The communism article is good for criticising capitalism from the perspective of a communist economic system. And cannot considered apart? You're basically saying that the immune system really shouldn't be considered apart from viruses, bacteria and cancer cells because much of the "energy" and evolutionary drive to develop an immune system comes from the consequences of pathogen organisation in the body? -- Natalinasmpf 16:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whether we have an article utopian communism or not, that is where this sort of stuff belongs: "...communism itself is stateless in theory and thus cannot be related to the actions of 20th century states." Essentially this is propaganda and is, in fact, a violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. This line served its purpose for bait and switch, but there was no sign any actual Communist movement took it seriously. Our article can include such theories but the bulk of it needs to refer to ideologies which existed or events which occured. Fred Bauder 16:04, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Concerning gift economy: how is it supposed to work on a national scale? If I want a pineapple, how will I get it in a gift economy? Do I have to go to eBay to see who is willing to give away a pineapple? Also, how does a gift economy encourage people to work and to give their best? They are not sure anyone will give them anything afterwards... Concerning capitalism and greed: the idea is that in "perfect capitalism" those that fall to the bottom work less than those that rise to the top. But "perfect capitalism" would assume that everyone has the same opportunities from the start - which is clearly not the case. Indeed, poverty itself is a reason why many people have too few alternatives. That's why any moderate capitalist will argue that the state should help the poor by providing help for better education and access to free (or at least cheap) medical services. In utopian perfect capitalism, those aids would not be necessary since no-one would be disadvantaged from the start (I know, it's a circular argument - that's why it is an utopy). Since utopias don't exist, some level of state intervention is necessary - the question is then to find the right level. BTW, getting back to Ayn Rand, that's why I said she's an extremist - she's arguing for something that cannot exist in this world. Luis rib 23:07, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Natalinasmpf, but your argument is strange. If communism is an utopia, it means it will never be possible to establish it. Thus, it is impossible to judge its merits, and therefore to say if it's good or not. In a sense, Communism would be like the Garden of Eden - another quasi-religious myth. The problem with utopias is that you cannot criticise them and not falsify them. That exactly why utopias are not scientifically valid. Sure, you can argue that communism could be so much better, but you have no means to either prove it or disprove it. I could also argue that Communism is very bad, but again would have no means to prove it. Therefore, if we confine communism to its uropian version, we should rewrite the whole article and compare it to other such utopias - like the Garden of Eden. BTW your view of capitalism is clearly totally biased, but you are right in one point: capitalism is not an utopia, it's not an ideology. That's why it is not perfect - nothing is - but at least it tries to improve things (and it certainly improved things if you compare it to feudalism or tribal economies). Seeking refuge in an utopia may be nice, but it's just a way to avoid taking difficult decisions. Luis rib 10:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No means to disprove or prove it? Communism is a pre-thought economic theory, capitalism is more of labelling of a pre-existing formula, ie. chaos theory in economics. Communism is an economic theory and pre-conceived system,, and therefore the article shoud concern it as such. Capitalism is also an economic system, and should be perceived as such. You can't demand that only the material on real-life communism be implemented, because you are forgetting that communism doesn't need to be an economic system of a nation to count as a valid theory... free software, kibbutzes, anyone? The Garden of Eden is not an ideology based on sociopolitical science.
Avoid taking difficult decisions? Are you kidding me? Oh well, continue in your defeatist attitude, but the etymylogy still remains. Communism is an economic theory, which has real life implementations, capitalism follows something similar. As long as capital (assigning an absolute value to materials to invest in) is used, its capitalism. As long as there is a commune-based society, with the correct conditions (if someone compromises, it is no longer communism), that is communism. Communism just happens to apply in more narrow situations. -- Natalinasmpf 19:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I know this will anger many people here, but shouldn't there be a section comparing Communism to other ideologies which are viewed as totalitarian? Or, if not here, maybe on Communist state? After all, it is a criticism that is often made. Also, it appears on Fascism, so at least there should be a link to that page. Waiting for your comments... Luis rib 11:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What I don't understand is the following: you (or somebody else) said that you couldn't take the USSR or China or Cambodia as an example of a communist economy because they had tried to implement it in countries that were not truly capitalist yet - and that's why it failed economically (let's forget about the human rights issues for a sec). Yet wouldn't that imply that if Communists want to succeed, they should support Capitalism in every way they can since they know that the more the society becomes capitalist, the sooner capitalism will crumble under its own contradictions and the sooner communism will emerge? Luis rib 10:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, in response to Luis' original argument, you're basically asking, shouldn't the immune system support viruses and bacteria and pathogens in every way because the they do so, the sooner the evolutionary drive to develop a better immune system emerges? The idea is to fight the pathogens, and so is the same thing for communism. -- Natalinasmpf 02:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). -- Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).
"The commies" That is just plain ignorant and babyish. Just because you may be a patriot of democracy or some such sh!t does not mean that you are right. As a matter of fact it seems that the USA tries to be totalitarian. They invade countries whose form of government they disagree with. Too bad that it was impossible for them to invade the USSR for all that time.
I personally think that communism should be a group effort to survive in all cases. Maybe the reason that it ends up failing so much is that these days there is always surplus and therefore the people that live in the society don't feel a need to share anything. Communism should have no classes whatsoever. Everyone should get paid according to the value of their service. In other words a garbage man can make as much as a doctor because he helps to avoid the very thing that the doctor is trying to cure! Everything needs to be controlled and surplus Italic textmust be held backItalic text in order to use it when it is only most necessary. People in government would be the only "higher ups" because they are really the only ones that know what's going on and are providing the greatest service to the people. Everything would be shared. Take for example a city block. There are four houses on the block and the block has at its service several cars that can be signed out on a certain day to the members of one house, a house that they do not own! The state owns everything but you just use it. Obviously it would be different for small things that must be owned for their existence to make sense. Mass transit is a better solution for transportation issues. Although Lenin said that "any idea of a god at all is the most unspeakable foulness" religion should not be discouraged.
Questions or comments?
Oh... I see. In this world then it is impossible to have pure communism because the country would most likely be overun. Then there is only one necessity and that would be a state becuase there is no other way to keep up the society in a country and not have it overun. I also didn't say to eliminate surplus. I said to save it until it is necessary. Also when forming a communist "state" you couldn't start out right away with no money. You would need to bring it in gradually since all of your citizens would be used to the idea of money. It would be useful to indoctrinate the children into not feeling the need for money. How could you prevent people from just taking advantage of free luxury items anyway? There is a need for money in the beginning but after that it can be eliminated.
Productivity falls as you increase taxation. People do not work to pay taxes. I have worked harder in the SAME job as my 'ciggarette break' taking collegues do. Thats why i should be payed more, because i work harder, i do twice as much as these young layabouts. Money is reward for hard work. People will always expect payment, women will sell their bodies for favours if you abolish fair payment and men will always gamble. Communism will fail because men like me will always exist. Communism failed for these very reasons, oh and remember under who's 'reign' the Gulag was begun. The leadership of china seem very wealthy. Just like George Galloway in his Second home in portugal! There has never been a true socialist in power. Power corrupts comrades. Welcome to the real world. -- (Unsigned comment by 81.132.70.251)
Yes but the idea of communism is to abolish the state. Not increase taxation. Who gave you idea about increasing taxes? Furthermore the idea as taxes increase, so the amount of benefits you receive from the state. However this results in some central planning, abuse and inefficiency, which is state socialism, aka Leninism, which is not what true communists advocate. Plus, you are an age discriminator because you assume that the younger are less experienced and therefore less skilled, this is such a untrue thing (intelligence over experience)...but that is irrelevant. In a communist society, you are APPRECIATED more for hard work, hence receive more gifts. Read the actual article, and actually read, will you? You cite the Soviet Union, China, gulag, etc. but let me remind you that is state socialism, and even state capitalism, therefore contrary to the true ideal and (whose governments all true communists, anarcho-communists despise). Leadership of China is wealthy because it is capitalist. There has never been a true communist in power because true communists do not seek power, but seek comfort - in peer review, a gift economy, and lack of stress, caused by an egalitarian pursuit. Those who a power-hungry aren't true communists because they are short sighted and repress their populace, which is short-sighted, and they lose our spiritually and intellectually in the end. Because they suppress the amount of amplified returns the receive through a gift economy. Communism advocates a GIFT ECONOMY. Bolsheviks, Stalinists, Maoists and Leninists and other hijackers of the cause are state capitalists who tried to seize the oppurtunity to sadistically repress the cause, not true communists, are evil, should be despised and ridiculed and be done away with for all I care. Communism does not advocate an all powerful state, nor a "dictatorship of the proleteriat". This is inane. "Communist state" is oxymoronic. -- Natalinasmpf 04:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lets analyse the word "communism" shall we? "Commune - ism" - ideology of the commune. Does it SAY anything about an authoritarian government? No. Does it say anything about dictatorship of the proleteriat? No. But what does it say? "Common" can be traced from "commune"! A community! A peer-based economy! A peer-based government! So please stop confusing communism with Leninism, Bolshevism, Pol Potism, or any other repressive ideologies. Leninism, etc. is an attempt to hijack the communist cause into making its the naive blindly commit themselves to a totalitarian state, and an act of perjury, slander, libel and defamation. That's right, the hijackers of the cause are slanderers and liars as well as human rights abusers. Communism is anarchism (just different aspects of the same ideology), and should not be confused with totalitarian ideologies. Totalitarians like Stalin, Trotsky (who was really evil anyway thanks to his actions at Kronstadt), Lenin (who dissolved the Duma, his soul can burn in the lake of sulfur), Pol Pot, Castro, etc. can get their souls tormented for all I care. However true communists like say... Emma Goldman are the real kind of communists who people ought to recognise as actual communists. (Note, I do not advocate posting this in the main article, I am just replying tit for tat to reactionary arguments, since you post your opinion, I post mine). -- Natalinasmpf 04:29, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OleMarxco from RevLeft here, in the hood. Well, me thinkesth that a real Communism has a decantralized system of control totally unlike what Soviet and China practised (which I look upon as State Capitalism - more like "Capitalists of the world, unite!") and also needs to go trough a stage of Capitalism first since industrialization must be follow trough the order that Marx wrote. Russia went straight from Feudalism to Communism, obviously that would not work. It insisted to both keep the STATE, a VANGUARD PARTY as some class -over- the proletarians, and were DEFINATELY not Communism. And communism is DEFINATELY not Anarchism, anarcho-Communism is an oxymoron: Anarchy is like "invidual over the group", Communism is collectivized communes working togheter in a perfect balance of industries and equal treatment of the people before the law: One being rewarded with material possesions proportional with your involvation in society. Excess money is flattened out to everyone, and abolished: It is impossible to "buy" oneself out of an encounter with the law by buying tricky lawyers. Therefore, there is no "classes", that is, so unlike the totalarian wannabe-Communisms, when there is a loss of resources, the weakening does not create a "scism" and a "crack" seperating people, one resources tilting to one side of society over the other, creating differences in wealth. It would decrease at society as a whole. All work is optional, but is rewarded by getting everything by rations the sooner the more you CHOOSE to work (Thus removing some people getting more money than they work for society! And no "inheriting"!)- Wherever you want, it is job rotation so you don't have to work somewhere solely to produce more than needed, but where you are needed. That is Communism - a very noble vision, indeed. But...spoiled. Capitalism is STILL not good enough, it is currently now bosses over workers, and the first world over the third world! EXPLOITING. BAH! Long live the hammer and the sickle.-- OleMurder 16:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But ah, don't treat Marx like dogma! Sure he had the right spirit, but not necessarily an entirely correct theory. Just as Newton wasn't totally correct with his idea of gravity (its relative to the space time curve, not just a simplistic force), I feel Marx is only partially correct. Industrialisation isn't needed for a successful society to occur - you set up the society first, THEN you industrialise. Anarcho-communism is hardly an oxymoron: anarchy is the "no individual has more power than another individual", power in the sense of ecopolitical oppurtunity power, not stressing that individuals should do whatever they want and run rampant with anomie. One is rewarded with economic and social resources in a gift economy for involvement in the community and thus being appreciated. Because money isn't used, no hoarding, abuse, poverty cycles and the like occurs. Communism has no higher state to enforce the law: it has principles. PEERS enforce laws. This prevents abuse from ever, ever happening (unlike the compromise of representative democratic socialism which has loopholes for abuse and plutocracy to occur). In an anarcho-communist society, there will probably be the scheme of ostraca, but in a more highly implemented form to say, provide an incentive for working for the food you receive freely. Else, people can just break off giving gifts to you. And since this isn't regulated centrally or by a higher power, there isn't any abuse. A gift economy has no "rations" - gifts are left to discernment. Contribute little, receive little. Contribute a lot, a lot of resources are used to invest in say, farming, technology, which produces more, hence growth, hence you win out by giving more, since the risk is very low. No one executes one another for not working (but except in cases of armed conflict or murder) because freedoms are respected. You cannot "ration" out rewards. It is left to the peers. If you don't work, people are disgusted at you and don't give to you. But the thing is, its based on empathy, rather than rigid laws. When its decentralised, its more flexible and people can sense the circumstances. For example, if you just lost your parents and your gift giving falls 50%, most people are generally going to be sympathetic. In a rigid law based society this probably wouldn't happen too much. Economic flexibility => higher economic growth => harmony et al. => decentralisation means harder to be attacked by enemies, easier to attack enemies. (Anybody who playes Weiqi knows this. Fluid! Formless! And your enemies will not know where to attack.) -- Natalinasmpf 20:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you very much. That is all very helpful and very LOGICAL!!! I don't see how capitalism even survives really. Lenin was partly right in that a communist revolution needs to happen everywhere at once to stay alive. Screw the thing about underdeveloped countries helping developed countries into being communists. Everything that has ever been called communism in human memory has been Capitalistic State Socialism! The reason the USA was so adamant about destroying "communism" was because the term was being missaplied to State Socailism. Communism would be the best thing that could ever happen to a society. But because of the USSR, China, North Korea, and Vietnam communism (which was actually state socialism) has made a bad name for itself. I seriously doubt that nearly anyone who thinks that they know what communism is really does know what it means. When people refer to communism they think "Communism= USSR= Evil!" If anyone knew what communism really was they would all (hopefully) join a movement. When setting up communism there would need to be mild administration at first until everyone got themselves organized. (and the politicians of this world are killed.) And now that i know what communism really is... I luv it!
That's why I hope all of you will help me overthrow the US government by educating the proletariat! God, I hate capitalism. Who here is with me? Email me at "vash_donutfreak@hotmail.com"!-- Terre Lotliby
Aye, you have my support I suppose. There is time for a change, and the hell away from all this Neo-Con bullshit we've gotten weaved into now. Hooray for revolution, and let us not repeat the previous faults! No Vanguard Party! Go Communism!-- OleMurder 22:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Good edit User:Natalinasmpf, you are quite correct. The soviet union wasn't much of a dictatorship after Stalin, and China isn't really a dictatorship either. Sam Spade 10:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think your POV is pretty clear, you wear it on your shirt sleeve and all ;) Sam Spade 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that all previous self-proclaimed "Communist"-countries gets moved instead to "State-Capitalism". That goes for both China and Soviet. At very least these were awkward socialist states with a insane vanguard party gone strait from Feudalism.-- OleMurder 07:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
What it all comes down to is that every experimental or serious attempt at Communism, large and small, has for a variety of reasons, failed. Capitalism is still going strong. When the whole Capitalist juggernaut goes Kablooie, then Communists may have room to criticize it... IF they ever get their thing going. Tom S.
Good edit User:Natalinasmpf, you are quite correct. The soviet union wasn't much of a dictatorship after Stalin, and China isn't really a dictatorship either. Sam Spade 10:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think your POV is pretty clear, you wear it on your shirt sleeve and all ;) Sam Spade 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that all previous self-proclaimed "Communist"-countries gets moved instead to "State-Capitalism". That goes for both China and Soviet. At very least these were awkward socialist states with a insane vanguard party gone strait from Feudalism.-- OleMurder 07:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
What it all comes down to is that every experimental or serious attempt at Communism, large and small, has for a variety of reasons, failed. Capitalism is still going strong. When the whole Capitalist juggernaut goes Kablooie, then Communists may have room to criticize it... IF they ever get their thing going. Tom S.
Is this supposed to be serious criticism? These sentences were some of the worst offenders:
What kind of chimpanzee? Common chimpanzees and bonobos have extremely different behaviours, although both are far more genetically similar to each other than they are to humans. The reference to other primates seems a little too vague.
This is a misrepresentation of the "selfish-gene" theory. The "selfish gene" theory says nothing about how the individual should behave. What it says is that genes evolve in a way that helps to propagate their own survival regardless of the positive, negative, or neutral effects on the individual or group. If cooperation helps all the individuals involved, and thus helps to maximize the distribution of those individuals' genes, then cooperation will evolve (remember even in the selfish gene theory it is still the individual that must survive and propagate). This misrepresentation is so egregious that it begs for a citation.
Much of the criticism section seems to just be the POV of the editors here, is there any sources for this criticism? If not, I might start deleting some of the obvious garbage within the next few days. millerc 8 July 2005 03:29 (UTC)
It should be mentioned, but it certainly doesn't belong in the "future" section. Where should we put it? -- Kennyisinvisible 9 July 2005 16:02 (UTC)
"As a political movement, communism is a more radical branch of the broader socialist movement. The communist movement differentiates itself from other branches of the socialist movement through their wish to completely do away with all aspects of market society under the final stage of the system ..."
Erm, unless I'm sorely mistaken Socialism is a branch of Communism, not the other way around. -- Kennyisinvisible 9 July 2005 16:08 (UTC)
Yes, communism is a branch of the socialist movement. The idea that socialism is a branch of the communist movement comes from the idea that it's a compromise for communist systems, which it isn't. Rather, communism is the most extreme branch of the socialist movement. However, Marxist-Leninism tends tends to go towards populism, while Kroptokin and communist anarchism is the most extreme branch of the libertarian socialist movement. Socialism has other movements (besides social democracy, which is probably what you're thinking of, democratic socialism (which is actually different), a form of bourgeois socialism (to appease), and various other forms as well. -- Natalinasmpf 9 July 2005 18:01 (UTC)
...requires greater rationality or wisdom for the planners, or voters, or workers' council members, than is consistent with the bounded rationality of the species.
-- Christofurio 20:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
It is clarified as a criticism. And of course communism is inherently naive and/or not humanly possible, thats the point! ;) [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly Sam. Thanks for the support. Criticism of an ideological position often cocomes from an "antipathetic ideological position"! What a shock. The NPOV thing to do is to state the various antipathetic positions fairly, and some of our communist friends seem averse to having that done here. -- Christofurio 17:13, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
The criticism is so naive I don't understand how such clever people as you, Sam can fall for it. Please explain how communism requires greater rationality for voters, council members, planners, etc. than, say, for President of the US of A, the SEC commission and Federal Reserve?
Let us forget for a second that the article is about communist ideology, not about its communist state. I understand that much of criticism comes from the thought that communists were planning everything, and this is humanly impossible, no doubt. But this is a naive college-grade understanding of communism, similar to the rumors that communists have everything common: common wives, common shoes and common toothbrushes. Another misunderstanding is that plans were something chiseled in stone. Of course there were not. They were always corrected through the course of the time. Sitll, please, this is not criticism of communism. This is criticism af any centrally planned economy, and hence belongs to the latter article.
Still another point, who told you that in communist state everything was planned for best of all people? That would require inhuman amount of planning for sure. In Soviet Union the planning was for good of the state in the first turn. People were treated as livestock; bare minimality. Mikkalai 19:33, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And one more: about alleged imposibility of total planning. If it were so, modern microchips could not possibly have beed designed and you wouldn't have this wonderful computer to type your naive arguments in. Ever heard about hierarchical approach to compex tasks? Mikkalai 19:44, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As opposed to those brilliant Communist theorists (whose favored states only collapsed due to imperialist pressure) Trey Stone 03:30, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Communist in political structure, reformist in economic structure. Trey Stone 04:25, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Communism#Human_nature. This ridiculous false dicotomy between "fear of the whip" and "common benevolence" (what the heck is that?) as forms of incentives is insane. Please look up reinforcement, Operant conditioning, and economics. Fear of punishment is not a major factor in the economies of the west (outside of prison, perhaps), and I think its easier to describe say.. Pol Pots communism as having been a slavery-based economy than even the pre-civil war united states south (even ancient egypt or feudalism had alot more to the economy than fear as an incentive, and not only financialy). [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To such objections, communists reply that human nature is misrepresented by capitalists. For example, under slavery, slave owners said blacks were lazy and stupid and that whippings were necessary for productivity. Thus, communists say under what they consider capitalist wage slavery, that the same type of arguments are made as an excuse for the capitalists to expropriate surplus value from workers. This fails to take into account the role of reinforcers in Behavioral psychology, and confuses punishing reinforcers (whippings) with positive reinforcers ( money).
?how is human psychology a straw man? And how does communism reward superior performance? Isn't that in contridiction to "to each according to his need"? [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your reply is nonsensical. We live in a state of abundance because we have a powerful economic base, derived from capitalism. I am in Germany, and while the country on the whole is well off, the eastern half had (and still has) a serious disadvantage due to having been ruined by communism. And if Marxism supplies "operant conditioning" of "fame" instead of cash rewards, why were even ballerina's and Olympic athletes (positions rewarded largely by fame in the west) especially well paid in communism, while "collective" farm laborers were periodically starved to death w artificial famines regardless of how hard they worked, often on the very land which had been stolen from them by the "egalitarianism" of communism. I think that's the sort of fame they would have preferred to do without, and has little to do with either business psychology or operant conditioning. 10 pounds of propaganda doesn't buy you one pound of bread. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
luke} A lot of people think that human nature is inherantly greedy and that is the main arguement that communism can't work. i disagree, human nature can change. i refuse to believe that the British binge drinking or the US gun crime cultures are there forever and cannot change. Lenin turned the entire russian anti-semitic attitudes around in a few short revolutionary years, unfortunately Stalin reverted to it back.
The basic criticism that it would be impossible to plan a communist society is fine. Someone wants it here, and it belongs here.
Nonetheless, it is replete with a total lack of understanding of Marxism, communism and so forth. These critics of communism know next-to-nothing about Marxism or communism, as I have stated before.
The second and third sentences are: "Theoretically, in a market system, scarce skills and resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands. Without an efficient market system, prices can send the wrong signals to consumers and planners, resulting in decisions that don't reflect the choices they would make if they knew the actual costs and competing demands for those resources."
First of all the idea that "scarce...resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands" pertains to the capitalist system, not the "market" system. If one looks at the life of a commodity as production -> exchange -> consumption, how is the exchange/market system of the USSR different than the US? A worker goes into a store and exchanges rubles (or dollars) for a loaf of bread. They are both market systems (of course, it should go without saying that the USSR socialist system would be different than a communist system).
Also, that this is how capitalist systems works is just of one various competing theories. Of course, it is the one capitalists within the capitalists system prefer (although not necessarily workers). The early bourgeois economists, Adam Smith, David Ricardo etc. certainly did not believe this, and in fact shared Marx's view that value came from labor, that prices were determined by labor time and so forth. In fact, this was the accepted view when Marx began his studies and Marx agreed with it. There really was no argument against this until Hermann Heinrich Gossen published The Development of the Laws of Exchange among Men and of the Consequent Rules of Human Action, the ideas of which were fleshed out by the subjective theory of value school (marginalists). In fact, Marxism (and all of classical economics prior to HH Gossen and friends) is counterposed to this new theory of value.
Anyhow, that's just the second and third sentence. As I said, the basic ideas of this section are fine, the criticism that communism is not plannable, but STV (marginalists) ideas are just that - ideas, theories, not fact and should be marked as such. So I will be rewriting this section. Ruy Lopez 09:55, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, the first paragraph is fairly straightforward, but the next three paragraphs having to do with the skyscraper are vague and make little sense. It is about how in capitalism, a skyscraper can be planned better than in communism. There are three paragraphs leading up to an argument and then - no argument. The last paragraph is leading up to this non-existent argument: "Critics contend that the implementation of communism in the sense described above would involve supplanting precisely these market and contract conditions that make planning possible. It would be planning instead of haggling, rather than planning within the context of haggling. That is what they contend is not practicable." OK, we have an example of a skyscraper, a description of how capitalists build a skyscraper and then a simple assertion that STVers don't think communists could build a skyscraper. The reason why is not given.
I know Amish people get together and do barn-raisings in basically a communist manner - each gives according to ability and each gets according to need. Of course, a skyscraper is more complex than a barn, but if one looks back 75 years, the tallest "skyscraper" in the world was less than 800 feet high, and most of what has enabled taller buildings to be built have been advances in engineering, and the factors leading to one wanting to go to the trouble of building such a large building. Beyond the architect, building a skyscraper is not that complex - you build a floor, then build another floor, and just keep going up. Nonetheless, all of this is more of an opinion than a reason. I see no argument made here. Ruy Lopez 10:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Suppose, for purposes of comparison, we were writing a passage about criticisms of Darwinism. I might write, "There are defenders of the views of Larmark, who believe that acquired characteristics can be inherited." Would it be fair for you to change that to this? "There are, though Darwinians disagree, defenders of the view of Larmark, with whom Darwinians disagree, who believe although Darwinians disagree that acquired characteristics can be inherited, although Darwinians disagree." Does that sound NPOV? AT what point are such continued interruptions of a point simply to state and restate and re-restate the mere fact of disagreement an unfair undermining of an effort to make a point that ought to be made? Frankly, I believe there is such a point and you have crossed it. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
time congealed in a commodity.
You don't "understand" it if you need to characterize it as "magical". The market price of something is the price at whichit is being exchanged or exchangeable. You are making a pointless distinction. You seem to object to the significance of exchange prices on the grounds that they involve only a "binary decision" along the lines accept/reject. But ... so what? Digital computers work on the basis of binary on/off switches. Enough binary choices and one has a calculation -- and a result that carries information. What is "magical" about this? That you don't like it, I accept. But you make negative characterizations about its being "magic" and "mysticism" which turns out to be just new ways of restating the fact that you don't want to acknowledge the information-carrying significance of prices. Exchanged prices, of course. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
The USSR had markets too, where do you think workers went to buy bread, shirts and such things? The local market.
Anyhow, as I said before, these are two different theories. At a certain point one reaches diminishing returns discussing this, we're both simply restating over and over the differences between the LTV and STV theories. Ruy Lopez 13:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that true? I thought atheism was a common denominator. All this talk about early christian / amish / shaker communism-like activities makes my head spin. What's the deal? I thought religion was the opiate of the masses and we were to find our solace in praying to Marx or some such ;) Maybe Juche?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:42, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Communism and communist experiments existed before Marx and, in fact, before Marx most experiments with communism were of a religious nature, particularly among Christians. AndyL 12:46, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All successful communist societies have had a religious basis. They have been of moderate size, from a few hundred to a few thousand members. Their religious basis has varied from radical interpretations of Christianity such as Oneida Community to quite fundamentalist and conservative such as the Shakers of Ann Lee, many were based on German pietism. These communities were very prosperous and were the envy of their less-favored neighbors [16]. Secular efforts to imitate them such as New Harmony were unsuccessful. Fred Bauder 14:17, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Of course communism doesn't require atheism. Intrigue 00:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All Communist states (perhaps there are a few exceptions) have been atheist, yes. Recall Marx describing religion as a pointless distraction from "revolution." J. Parker Stone 01:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Early communism may not have required atheism but modern theories, and certainly Marxism, do. While everyone knows Marx's "Reiligion is the opiate of the masses" quote (I'd love to hear what he'd think of TV today), the real opposition to religion comes from its class nature. All communists strive to create a classless society and the clergy have traditionally maintained their own customs, dress codes, ideals and organisations. They are arguably the most distinct of all classes GreatGodOm 29 June 2005 13:19 (UTC)
The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand. If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off. The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness. But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would. This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo. Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making the other choices or no exchange at all. Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware. When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it. Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses. Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value. Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.-- Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
??? I don't know where to start with this! As a piece of 'market-advocacy' it is an interesting perspective, but it is not an NPOV treatment of the subject. Intrigue 15:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's an interesting point of view, but it's far from fact. Intrigue 03:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's because I am a PHP script. It's fine to quote this as a theory, and reference who thinks it, it is just that presenting it as uncontested fact is not ok. Beep beep. Intrigue 20:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, we do reference who proposes these theories, and they are a lot easier to agree on than theories about 'levels of individual satisfaction'. I certainly don't think that this theory has 90% acceptance among any reasonable group of people. I'm disturbed by your reluctance to reference it if it really is that mainstream, I'm certainly not asking for every proponent, just one or two notable ones. Intrigue 02:08, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then you should have no problems attributing this theory to some published authors. Intrigue 19:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then we're in agreement - the theory will be referenced in the article as one advanced by these people (among others)? Intrigue 18:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, this is a theory, and should not be presented as fact, but as a theory advanced by some (perhaps many) people. I'm baffled as to why you would not want to reference this as the opinion of some notable politcal theorists. We don't need to argue about whether it is right or wrong, just say who claims it. Intrigue 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Who cares? Read some more and you can dispel your own myths and misconceptions, if you wanna stop scaring yourself over something that isn't real.-- Che y Marijuana 22:02, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Socialism involves public ownership of the means of production and private ownership of everything else, while communism abolishes private ownership altogether European socialdemocracy, wich can be considered socialism even if of a moderate kind, does not involves public ownership of the means of production. And I don't think that there has been even one communist regime that has completely abolited private ownership, nor Karl Marx ever proposed to do that. Before the october revolution I think that the world communist was just a synonim of revolutionary socialist. After that it was used to refer to those socialists that had embrassed Lenin's ideas and that looked at the October Revolution as their political source of inspiration. juliet.p from Italy
This is almost a cartoonishly bad argument. Summarizing and paraphrasing just a bit, we're now saying, "some of communism's critics complainthat revolutions are bloody. To this communists reply: if the establishment didn't resist the revolution, it could all be done quickly and peacefully."
Yes, and if Haile Selassie had gone along, Mussolini's takeover of his country would have been bloodless, too. Does anybody defend the general principle that resistance as such is evil because it forces aggressors to get violent?
I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
True, it is a complicated phenomenon, and it would be great if someone could sufficiently articulate its causes. I disagree with the reading that it involves Deng conceding to capitalism's superiority; I interpret it it as a change of views - it wouldn't be any more true to say that Mussolini by changing his opinions conceded to the superiority of fascism. Nevertheless, I will take out the quote, it'd still be nice if knowledgeable persons/people could talk more about the development of Maoist economics in China. Lacrimosus 23:32, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please no revert war, I've even included a Washington Times source for you. It's a perfectly apt and reasonable quote. 172, please leave your agenda behind. Libertas
The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I made your point again in a clear, specific way. I added that the Soviet Union and China after Stalin and Mao, respectively, continued to be single party regimes that executed political opponents of the regime, though on a far smaller scale. 172 07:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
"He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism" Then, if Stalin did it, what is it part of? BTW, Trotsky said there was no such thing as "Trotskyism" and that the term was invented by Stalinists. Trotsky preferred the term "Bolshevik-Leninism". AndyL 17:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, you smell the truth. Bah, what does that matter if it were all or some? The fact that Stalin did it, is still there. And, further up, there is no Stalinism and there is no Trotskyism. It's just invidual interpretions of how Communism should be, made of them...although I prefer the latter. However; The article is neutral and is just telling history how it happened as neutrally as possible. Although I agree and changed it from "all" to "most".-- OleMurder 06:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is interesting that Trotsky would want the term "Bolshevik-Leninism" when he spent most of his life attacking the Bolsheviks and Lenin, and only joined the Bolsheviks in July of 1917 (three months before the revolution) and still spent most of his time attacking Lenin. The solution, IMO, is to not use the term "Stalinism" when writing articles about those who upheld Stalin, or to reference it in such way as to clarify the meaning. Same should be done for Trotskyites if they feel that the term "Troskyism" is incorrect. BTW, Stalin hardly crushed all dissedents. IMO, he was a little too friendly and a good purging before his death might have prevented revisonism and the eventual collapse of the USSR, and we would have a lot more hope for the future today. -- Mista-X 16:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"there is no better Bolshevik" Lenin on Trotsky.
Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, got your point. I won't put it back. However, what about the bureaucracy part? That critique seems rather relevant to me - after all it does not only apply to centrally planned states, but to any organization that has become too big. Luis rib 22:07, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror!
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I tried my best to rework the article, it needs ALOT of work. But at least now it mentions gift economies a few times.-- Che y Marijuana 03:21, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also, the other concern is its elaboration of the idea of the gift economy's part in the movement in both the critique, and the response against it, and especially in the Stalinism vs Trotskyism area. -- Natalinasmpf 20:39, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The links which Ultramarine wants to insert are problematic for a number of reasons. Leaving aside the reliability of the sites in question for the time being, the intro to this article states that it is primarily about the theory of communism. It also states that For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state. This seems more than reasonable as a way of organising discussion of such an enormous topic. And since these links all discuss the abuses of Communist-Party regimes, they don't belong here. If we have all that stuff on the crimes of Communist regimes, then what is to stop someone adding links applauding Stalin's success in raising industrial production in the USSR etc. etc etc. It is off-topic. Why should they be here? Mattley 23:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As for the Nazism article, there is a small paragraph on it, but it makes no sense to drag it all into here. If we can't do it justice on this page, as it is a big page, it should be placed almost entirely on the other page.-- Che y Marijuana 03:06, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
My last edit removed some blantant POV from the section on "Communist states." 'Executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' have taken place in capitalist societies, but what would happen if one were to put the following in the article on capitalism:
I hope that no one will attempt to put the above in the article on capitalism. That would be absurd-- just as absurd as allowing the content that I'd removed from the article to stay up... If people are interested in detailing a critique of Communist ideology based on the actions of Communist regimes, they will have to cite the research of authortative sources laying out a relationship between Communist ideology and the actions of political authorities in cases such as Stalinist Russia, Communist China, et. al. JMaxwell 21:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Finally, some claim that wars, hunger and lack of elementary medical care, causing the deaths of millions, are the results of capitalist relations of production, making capitalism the single most violent socio-economic system in history. This view, however, is widely criticised, since most wars, famines or epidemics happened in countries that were not really capitalist.
This discussion has already taken place in other talk pages, and there's no need to repeat it here. People looking for information on communism SHOULD find some reference to what happened in countries that officially claimed to be communist. The facts are not in dispute, in any case (there's just some argument on the precise number of deaths, etc.). Your comparison with capitalism is spurious, since capitalism is not as wide-spread as you claim. Certainly not all non-communist states are capitalist. Indeed, most African countries were not capitalist, and neither was Latin America (with the possible exception of Chile). Luis rib 23:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your claim that capitalism is associated with war is a complete fallacy. I am not making this claim. My point is that all 'executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' occurred throughout history in societies where private ownership of the means of production dominated economic output. However, whether or not there was a relationship to capitalism and these occurrences is not for Wikipedia to decide, due to the NPOV policy; instead, this is a matter to be taken up in social science academic journals. In the same vein, Wikipedia cannot assert a relationship between every occurrence under Communist regimes and Communist ideology... If you want to cite authoritative source making this claim, feel free to do so. At the same time, this claim must be balanced with other POVs. JMaxwell 01:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
From Communist states:
Yawn. We're all familiar with Rummel, Conquest, Pipes, and the bulk of these authors. Copying and pasting this list, however, is not a license to write a biased diatribe blaming everything occurring under Communist regimes on Communism independent of other factors, such as the social problems inherited from the old regimes... Incidentally, if a Marxist decided to apply your reasoning to the capitalism article, he could just as easily generate a list of Marxist academics who relate capitalism to the great power rivalries leading up to the First World War, the Second World War, and the rise of fascism, and then in turn proceed to blame all the horrors and atrocities of the interwar era on capitalism. JMaxwell 04:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have kept this on my watchlist, although I had taken a vacation from it for various reasons. The article seems somewhat improved; there is at least brief mention of the horrendous consequences of the Communist adventure. This introduction:
":This article is about communism as a form of society built around a gift economy, as an ideology advocating that form of society, and as a popular movement. For issues regarding the organization of the communist movement, see the Communist party article. For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state.
represents, however, an attempt to distance the article from the realities of practical communism as we have known it in our lifetime and especially from the realities of being involved in the movement.
One note: This article is not about capitalism and the problems capitalism has. That material needs to go in the article, capitalism. Yet, the communist movement cannot be considered apart from capitalism as much of its energy comes from the consequences of capitalist organization of the economy. Fred Bauder 14:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
No, but neither is the capitalist article going to be mainly about the problems it has. The communism article is good for criticising capitalism from the perspective of a communist economic system. And cannot considered apart? You're basically saying that the immune system really shouldn't be considered apart from viruses, bacteria and cancer cells because much of the "energy" and evolutionary drive to develop an immune system comes from the consequences of pathogen organisation in the body? -- Natalinasmpf 16:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whether we have an article utopian communism or not, that is where this sort of stuff belongs: "...communism itself is stateless in theory and thus cannot be related to the actions of 20th century states." Essentially this is propaganda and is, in fact, a violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. This line served its purpose for bait and switch, but there was no sign any actual Communist movement took it seriously. Our article can include such theories but the bulk of it needs to refer to ideologies which existed or events which occured. Fred Bauder 16:04, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Concerning gift economy: how is it supposed to work on a national scale? If I want a pineapple, how will I get it in a gift economy? Do I have to go to eBay to see who is willing to give away a pineapple? Also, how does a gift economy encourage people to work and to give their best? They are not sure anyone will give them anything afterwards... Concerning capitalism and greed: the idea is that in "perfect capitalism" those that fall to the bottom work less than those that rise to the top. But "perfect capitalism" would assume that everyone has the same opportunities from the start - which is clearly not the case. Indeed, poverty itself is a reason why many people have too few alternatives. That's why any moderate capitalist will argue that the state should help the poor by providing help for better education and access to free (or at least cheap) medical services. In utopian perfect capitalism, those aids would not be necessary since no-one would be disadvantaged from the start (I know, it's a circular argument - that's why it is an utopy). Since utopias don't exist, some level of state intervention is necessary - the question is then to find the right level. BTW, getting back to Ayn Rand, that's why I said she's an extremist - she's arguing for something that cannot exist in this world. Luis rib 23:07, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Natalinasmpf, but your argument is strange. If communism is an utopia, it means it will never be possible to establish it. Thus, it is impossible to judge its merits, and therefore to say if it's good or not. In a sense, Communism would be like the Garden of Eden - another quasi-religious myth. The problem with utopias is that you cannot criticise them and not falsify them. That exactly why utopias are not scientifically valid. Sure, you can argue that communism could be so much better, but you have no means to either prove it or disprove it. I could also argue that Communism is very bad, but again would have no means to prove it. Therefore, if we confine communism to its uropian version, we should rewrite the whole article and compare it to other such utopias - like the Garden of Eden. BTW your view of capitalism is clearly totally biased, but you are right in one point: capitalism is not an utopia, it's not an ideology. That's why it is not perfect - nothing is - but at least it tries to improve things (and it certainly improved things if you compare it to feudalism or tribal economies). Seeking refuge in an utopia may be nice, but it's just a way to avoid taking difficult decisions. Luis rib 10:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No means to disprove or prove it? Communism is a pre-thought economic theory, capitalism is more of labelling of a pre-existing formula, ie. chaos theory in economics. Communism is an economic theory and pre-conceived system,, and therefore the article shoud concern it as such. Capitalism is also an economic system, and should be perceived as such. You can't demand that only the material on real-life communism be implemented, because you are forgetting that communism doesn't need to be an economic system of a nation to count as a valid theory... free software, kibbutzes, anyone? The Garden of Eden is not an ideology based on sociopolitical science.
Avoid taking difficult decisions? Are you kidding me? Oh well, continue in your defeatist attitude, but the etymylogy still remains. Communism is an economic theory, which has real life implementations, capitalism follows something similar. As long as capital (assigning an absolute value to materials to invest in) is used, its capitalism. As long as there is a commune-based society, with the correct conditions (if someone compromises, it is no longer communism), that is communism. Communism just happens to apply in more narrow situations. -- Natalinasmpf 19:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I know this will anger many people here, but shouldn't there be a section comparing Communism to other ideologies which are viewed as totalitarian? Or, if not here, maybe on Communist state? After all, it is a criticism that is often made. Also, it appears on Fascism, so at least there should be a link to that page. Waiting for your comments... Luis rib 11:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What I don't understand is the following: you (or somebody else) said that you couldn't take the USSR or China or Cambodia as an example of a communist economy because they had tried to implement it in countries that were not truly capitalist yet - and that's why it failed economically (let's forget about the human rights issues for a sec). Yet wouldn't that imply that if Communists want to succeed, they should support Capitalism in every way they can since they know that the more the society becomes capitalist, the sooner capitalism will crumble under its own contradictions and the sooner communism will emerge? Luis rib 10:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, in response to Luis' original argument, you're basically asking, shouldn't the immune system support viruses and bacteria and pathogens in every way because the they do so, the sooner the evolutionary drive to develop a better immune system emerges? The idea is to fight the pathogens, and so is the same thing for communism. -- Natalinasmpf 02:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). -- Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).
"The commies" That is just plain ignorant and babyish. Just because you may be a patriot of democracy or some such sh!t does not mean that you are right. As a matter of fact it seems that the USA tries to be totalitarian. They invade countries whose form of government they disagree with. Too bad that it was impossible for them to invade the USSR for all that time.
...requires greater rationality or wisdom for the planners, or voters, or workers' council members, than is consistent with the bounded rationality of the species.
-- Christofurio 20:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
It is clarified as a criticism. And of course communism is inherently naive and/or not humanly possible, thats the point! ;) [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly Sam. Thanks for the support. Criticism of an ideological position often cocomes from an "antipathetic ideological position"! What a shock. The NPOV thing to do is to state the various antipathetic positions fairly, and some of our communist friends seem averse to having that done here. -- Christofurio 17:13, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
The criticism is so naive I don't understand how such clever people as you, Sam can fall for it. Please explain how communism requires greater rationality for voters, council members, planners, etc. than, say, for President of the US of A, the SEC commission and Federal Reserve?
Let us forget for a second that the article is about communist ideology, not about its communist state. I understand that much of criticism comes from the thought that communists were planning everything, and this is humanly impossible, no doubt. But this is a naive college-grade understanding of communism, similar to the rumors that communists have everything common: common wives, common shoes and common toothbrushes. Another misunderstanding is that plans were something chiseled in stone. Of course there were not. They were always corrected through the course of the time. Sitll, please, this is not criticism of communism. This is criticism af any centrally planned economy, and hence belongs to the latter article.
Still another point, who told you that in communist state everything was planned for best of all people? That would require inhuman amount of planning for sure. In Soviet Union the planning was for good of the state in the first turn. People were treated as livestock; bare minimality. Mikkalai 19:33, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And one more: about alleged imposibility of total planning. If it were so, modern microchips could not possibly have beed designed and you wouldn't have this wonderful computer to type your naive arguments in. Ever heard about hierarchical approach to compex tasks? Mikkalai 19:44, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As opposed to those brilliant Communist theorists (whose favored states only collapsed due to imperialist pressure) Trey Stone 03:30, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Communist in political structure, reformist in economic structure. Trey Stone 04:25, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Communism#Human_nature. This ridiculous false dicotomy between "fear of the whip" and "common benevolence" (what the heck is that?) as forms of incentives is insane. Please look up reinforcement, Operant conditioning, and economics. Fear of punishment is not a major factor in the economies of the west (outside of prison, perhaps), and I think its easier to describe say.. Pol Pots communism as having been a slavery-based economy than even the pre-civil war united states south (even ancient egypt or feudalism had alot more to the economy than fear as an incentive, and not only financialy). [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To such objections, communists reply that human nature is misrepresented by capitalists. For example, under slavery, slave owners said blacks were lazy and stupid and that whippings were necessary for productivity. Thus, communists say under what they consider capitalist wage slavery, that the same type of arguments are made as an excuse for the capitalists to expropriate surplus value from workers. This fails to take into account the role of reinforcers in Behavioral psychology, and confuses punishing reinforcers (whippings) with positive reinforcers ( money).
?how is human psychology a straw man? And how does communism reward superior performance? Isn't that in contridiction to "to each according to his need"? [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your reply is nonsensical. We live in a state of abundance because we have a powerful economic base, derived from capitalism. I am in Germany, and while the country on the whole is well off, the eastern half had (and still has) a serious disadvantage due to having been ruined by communism. And if Marxism supplies "operant conditioning" of "fame" instead of cash rewards, why were even ballerina's and Olympic athletes (positions rewarded largely by fame in the west) especially well paid in communism, while "collective" farm laborers were periodically starved to death w artificial famines regardless of how hard they worked, often on the very land which had been stolen from them by the "egalitarianism" of communism. I think that's the sort of fame they would have preferred to do without, and has little to do with either business psychology or operant conditioning. 10 pounds of propaganda doesn't buy you one pound of bread. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
luke} A lot of people think that human nature is inherantly greedy and that is the main arguement that communism can't work. i disagree, human nature can change. i refuse to believe that the British binge drinking or the US gun crime cultures are there forever and cannot change. Lenin turned the entire russian anti-semitic attitudes around in a few short revolutionary years, unfortunately Stalin reverted to it back.
The basic criticism that it would be impossible to plan a communist society is fine. Someone wants it here, and it belongs here.
Nonetheless, it is replete with a total lack of understanding of Marxism, communism and so forth. These critics of communism know next-to-nothing about Marxism or communism, as I have stated before.
The second and third sentences are: "Theoretically, in a market system, scarce skills and resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands. Without an efficient market system, prices can send the wrong signals to consumers and planners, resulting in decisions that don't reflect the choices they would make if they knew the actual costs and competing demands for those resources."
First of all the idea that "scarce...resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands" pertains to the capitalist system, not the "market" system. If one looks at the life of a commodity as production -> exchange -> consumption, how is the exchange/market system of the USSR different than the US? A worker goes into a store and exchanges rubles (or dollars) for a loaf of bread. They are both market systems (of course, it should go without saying that the USSR socialist system would be different than a communist system).
Also, that this is how capitalist systems works is just of one various competing theories. Of course, it is the one capitalists within the capitalists system prefer (although not necessarily workers). The early bourgeois economists, Adam Smith, David Ricardo etc. certainly did not believe this, and in fact shared Marx's view that value came from labor, that prices were determined by labor time and so forth. In fact, this was the accepted view when Marx began his studies and Marx agreed with it. There really was no argument against this until Hermann Heinrich Gossen published The Development of the Laws of Exchange among Men and of the Consequent Rules of Human Action, the ideas of which were fleshed out by the subjective theory of value school (marginalists). In fact, Marxism (and all of classical economics prior to HH Gossen and friends) is counterposed to this new theory of value.
Anyhow, that's just the second and third sentence. As I said, the basic ideas of this section are fine, the criticism that communism is not plannable, but STV (marginalists) ideas are just that - ideas, theories, not fact and should be marked as such. So I will be rewriting this section. Ruy Lopez 09:55, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, the first paragraph is fairly straightforward, but the next three paragraphs having to do with the skyscraper are vague and make little sense. It is about how in capitalism, a skyscraper can be planned better than in communism. There are three paragraphs leading up to an argument and then - no argument. The last paragraph is leading up to this non-existent argument: "Critics contend that the implementation of communism in the sense described above would involve supplanting precisely these market and contract conditions that make planning possible. It would be planning instead of haggling, rather than planning within the context of haggling. That is what they contend is not practicable." OK, we have an example of a skyscraper, a description of how capitalists build a skyscraper and then a simple assertion that STVers don't think communists could build a skyscraper. The reason why is not given.
I know Amish people get together and do barn-raisings in basically a communist manner - each gives according to ability and each gets according to need. Of course, a skyscraper is more complex than a barn, but if one looks back 75 years, the tallest "skyscraper" in the world was less than 800 feet high, and most of what has enabled taller buildings to be built have been advances in engineering, and the factors leading to one wanting to go to the trouble of building such a large building. Beyond the architect, building a skyscraper is not that complex - you build a floor, then build another floor, and just keep going up. Nonetheless, all of this is more of an opinion than a reason. I see no argument made here. Ruy Lopez 10:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Suppose, for purposes of comparison, we were writing a passage about criticisms of Darwinism. I might write, "There are defenders of the views of Larmark, who believe that acquired characteristics can be inherited." Would it be fair for you to change that to this? "There are, though Darwinians disagree, defenders of the view of Larmark, with whom Darwinians disagree, who believe although Darwinians disagree that acquired characteristics can be inherited, although Darwinians disagree." Does that sound NPOV? AT what point are such continued interruptions of a point simply to state and restate and re-restate the mere fact of disagreement an unfair undermining of an effort to make a point that ought to be made? Frankly, I believe there is such a point and you have crossed it. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
time congealed in a commodity.
You don't "understand" it if you need to characterize it as "magical". The market price of something is the price at whichit is being exchanged or exchangeable. You are making a pointless distinction. You seem to object to the significance of exchange prices on the grounds that they involve only a "binary decision" along the lines accept/reject. But ... so what? Digital computers work on the basis of binary on/off switches. Enough binary choices and one has a calculation -- and a result that carries information. What is "magical" about this? That you don't like it, I accept. But you make negative characterizations about its being "magic" and "mysticism" which turns out to be just new ways of restating the fact that you don't want to acknowledge the information-carrying significance of prices. Exchanged prices, of course. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
The USSR had markets too, where do you think workers went to buy bread, shirts and such things? The local market.
Anyhow, as I said before, these are two different theories. At a certain point one reaches diminishing returns discussing this, we're both simply restating over and over the differences between the LTV and STV theories. Ruy Lopez 13:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that true? I thought atheism was a common denominator. All this talk about early christian / amish / shaker communism-like activities makes my head spin. What's the deal? I thought religion was the opiate of the masses and we were to find our solace in praying to Marx or some such ;) Maybe Juche?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:42, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Communism and communist experiments existed before Marx and, in fact, before Marx most experiments with communism were of a religious nature, particularly among Christians. AndyL 12:46, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All successful communist societies have had a religious basis. They have been of moderate size, from a few hundred to a few thousand members. Their religious basis has varied from radical interpretations of Christianity such as Oneida Community to quite fundamentalist and conservative such as the Shakers of Ann Lee, many were based on German pietism. These communities were very prosperous and were the envy of their less-favored neighbors [23]. Secular efforts to imitate them such as New Harmony were unsuccessful. Fred Bauder 14:17, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Of course communism doesn't require atheism. Intrigue 00:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All Communist states (perhaps there are a few exceptions) have been atheist, yes. Recall Marx describing religion as a pointless distraction from "revolution." J. Parker Stone 01:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Early communism may not have required atheism but modern theories, and certainly Marxism, do. While everyone knows Marx's "Reiligion is the opiate of the masses" quote (I'd love to hear what he'd think of TV today), the real opposition to religion comes from its class nature. All communists strive to create a classless society and the clergy have traditionally maintained their own customs, dress codes, ideals and organisations. They are arguably the most distinct of all classes GreatGodOm 29 June 2005 13:19 (UTC)
The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand. If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off. The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness. But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would. This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo. Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making the other choices or no exchange at all. Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware. When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it. Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses. Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value. Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.-- Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
??? I don't know where to start with this! As a piece of 'market-advocacy' it is an interesting perspective, but it is not an NPOV treatment of the subject. Intrigue 15:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's an interesting point of view, but it's far from fact. Intrigue 03:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's because I am a PHP script. It's fine to quote this as a theory, and reference who thinks it, it is just that presenting it as uncontested fact is not ok. Beep beep. Intrigue 20:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, we do reference who proposes these theories, and they are a lot easier to agree on than theories about 'levels of individual satisfaction'. I certainly don't think that this theory has 90% acceptance among any reasonable group of people. I'm disturbed by your reluctance to reference it if it really is that mainstream, I'm certainly not asking for every proponent, just one or two notable ones. Intrigue 02:08, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then you should have no problems attributing this theory to some published authors. Intrigue 19:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then we're in agreement - the theory will be referenced in the article as one advanced by these people (among others)? Intrigue 18:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, this is a theory, and should not be presented as fact, but as a theory advanced by some (perhaps many) people. I'm baffled as to why you would not want to reference this as the opinion of some notable politcal theorists. We don't need to argue about whether it is right or wrong, just say who claims it. Intrigue 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Who cares? Read some more and you can dispel your own myths and misconceptions, if you wanna stop scaring yourself over something that isn't real.-- Che y Marijuana 22:02, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Socialism involves public ownership of the means of production and private ownership of everything else, while communism abolishes private ownership altogether European socialdemocracy, wich can be considered socialism even if of a moderate kind, does not involves public ownership of the means of production. And I don't think that there has been even one communist regime that has completely abolited private ownership, nor Karl Marx ever proposed to do that. Before the october revolution I think that the world communist was just a synonim of revolutionary socialist. After that it was used to refer to those socialists that had embrassed Lenin's ideas and that looked at the October Revolution as their political source of inspiration. juliet.p from Italy
This is almost a cartoonishly bad argument. Summarizing and paraphrasing just a bit, we're now saying, "some of communism's critics complainthat revolutions are bloody. To this communists reply: if the establishment didn't resist the revolution, it could all be done quickly and peacefully."
Yes, and if Haile Selassie had gone along, Mussolini's takeover of his country would have been bloodless, too. Does anybody defend the general principle that resistance as such is evil because it forces aggressors to get violent?
I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
True, it is a complicated phenomenon, and it would be great if someone could sufficiently articulate its causes. I disagree with the reading that it involves Deng conceding to capitalism's superiority; I interpret it it as a change of views - it wouldn't be any more true to say that Mussolini by changing his opinions conceded to the superiority of fascism. Nevertheless, I will take out the quote, it'd still be nice if knowledgeable persons/people could talk more about the development of Maoist economics in China. Lacrimosus 23:32, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please no revert war, I've even included a Washington Times source for you. It's a perfectly apt and reasonable quote. 172, please leave your agenda behind. Libertas
The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I made your point again in a clear, specific way. I added that the Soviet Union and China after Stalin and Mao, respectively, continued to be single party regimes that executed political opponents of the regime, though on a far smaller scale. 172 07:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
"He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism" Then, if Stalin did it, what is it part of? BTW, Trotsky said there was no such thing as "Trotskyism" and that the term was invented by Stalinists. Trotsky preferred the term "Bolshevik-Leninism". AndyL 17:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, you smell the truth. Bah, what does that matter if it were all or some? The fact that Stalin did it, is still there. And, further up, there is no Stalinism and there is no Trotskyism. It's just invidual interpretions of how Communism should be, made of them...although I prefer the latter. However; The article is neutral and is just telling history how it happened as neutrally as possible. Although I agree and changed it from "all" to "most".-- OleMurder 06:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is interesting that Trotsky would want the term "Bolshevik-Leninism" when he spent most of his life attacking the Bolsheviks and Lenin, and only joined the Bolsheviks in July of 1917 (three months before the revolution) and still spent most of his time attacking Lenin. The solution, IMO, is to not use the term "Stalinism" when writing articles about those who upheld Stalin, or to reference it in such way as to clarify the meaning. Same should be done for Trotskyites if they feel that the term "Troskyism" is incorrect. BTW, Stalin hardly crushed all dissedents. IMO, he was a little too friendly and a good purging before his death might have prevented revisonism and the eventual collapse of the USSR, and we would have a lot more hope for the future today. -- Mista-X 16:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"there is no better Bolshevik" Lenin on Trotsky.
Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, got your point. I won't put it back. However, what about the bureaucracy part? That critique seems rather relevant to me - after all it does not only apply to centrally planned states, but to any organization that has become too big. Luis rib 22:07, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror!
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I tried my best to rework the article, it needs ALOT of work. But at least now it mentions gift economies a few times.-- Che y Marijuana 03:21, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also, the other concern is its elaboration of the idea of the gift economy's part in the movement in both the critique, and the response against it, and especially in the Stalinism vs Trotskyism area. -- Natalinasmpf 20:39, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The links which Ultramarine wants to insert are problematic for a number of reasons. Leaving aside the reliability of the sites in question for the time being, the intro to this article states that it is primarily about the theory of communism. It also states that For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state. This seems more than reasonable as a way of organising discussion of such an enormous topic. And since these links all discuss the abuses of Communist-Party regimes, they don't belong here. If we have all that stuff on the crimes of Communist regimes, then what is to stop someone adding links applauding Stalin's success in raising industrial production in the USSR etc. etc etc. It is off-topic. Why should they be here? Mattley 23:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As for the Nazism article, there is a small paragraph on it, but it makes no sense to drag it all into here. If we can't do it justice on this page, as it is a big page, it should be placed almost entirely on the other page.-- Che y Marijuana 03:06, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
My last edit removed some blantant POV from the section on "Communist states." 'Executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' have taken place in capitalist societies, but what would happen if one were to put the following in the article on capitalism:
I hope that no one will attempt to put the above in the article on capitalism. That would be absurd-- just as absurd as allowing the content that I'd removed from the article to stay up... If people are interested in detailing a critique of Communist ideology based on the actions of Communist regimes, they will have to cite the research of authortative sources laying out a relationship between Communist ideology and the actions of political authorities in cases such as Stalinist Russia, Communist China, et. al. JMaxwell 21:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Finally, some claim that wars, hunger and lack of elementary medical care, causing the deaths of millions, are the results of capitalist relations of production, making capitalism the single most violent socio-economic system in history. This view, however, is widely criticised, since most wars, famines or epidemics happened in countries that were not really capitalist.
This discussion has already taken place in other talk pages, and there's no need to repeat it here. People looking for information on communism SHOULD find some reference to what happened in countries that officially claimed to be communist. The facts are not in dispute, in any case (there's just some argument on the precise number of deaths, etc.). Your comparison with capitalism is spurious, since capitalism is not as wide-spread as you claim. Certainly not all non-communist states are capitalist. Indeed, most African countries were not capitalist, and neither was Latin America (with the possible exception of Chile). Luis rib 23:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your claim that capitalism is associated with war is a complete fallacy. I am not making this claim. My point is that all 'executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' occurred throughout history in societies where private ownership of the means of production dominated economic output. However, whether or not there was a relationship to capitalism and these occurrences is not for Wikipedia to decide, due to the NPOV policy; instead, this is a matter to be taken up in social science academic journals. In the same vein, Wikipedia cannot assert a relationship between every occurrence under Communist regimes and Communist ideology... If you want to cite authoritative source making this claim, feel free to do so. At the same time, this claim must be balanced with other POVs. JMaxwell 01:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
From Communist states:
Yawn. We're all familiar with Rummel, Conquest, Pipes, and the bulk of these authors. Copying and pasting this list, however, is not a license to write a biased diatribe blaming everything occurring under Communist regimes on Communism independent of other factors, such as the social problems inherited from the old regimes... Incidentally, if a Marxist decided to apply your reasoning to the capitalism article, he could just as easily generate a list of Marxist academics who relate capitalism to the great power rivalries leading up to the First World War, the Second World War, and the rise of fascism, and then in turn proceed to blame all the horrors and atrocities of the interwar era on capitalism. JMaxwell 04:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have kept this on my watchlist, although I had taken a vacation from it for various reasons. The article seems somewhat improved; there is at least brief mention of the horrendous consequences of the Communist adventure. This introduction:
":This article is about communism as a form of society built around a gift economy, as an ideology advocating that form of society, and as a popular movement. For issues regarding the organization of the communist movement, see the Communist party article. For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state.
represents, however, an attempt to distance the article from the realities of practical communism as we have known it in our lifetime and especially from the realities of being involved in the movement.
One note: This article is not about capitalism and the problems capitalism has. That material needs to go in the article, capitalism. Yet, the communist movement cannot be considered apart from capitalism as much of its energy comes from the consequences of capitalist organization of the economy. Fred Bauder 14:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
No, but neither is the capitalist article going to be mainly about the problems it has. The communism article is good for criticising capitalism from the perspective of a communist economic system. And cannot considered apart? You're basically saying that the immune system really shouldn't be considered apart from viruses, bacteria and cancer cells because much of the "energy" and evolutionary drive to develop an immune system comes from the consequences of pathogen organisation in the body? -- Natalinasmpf 16:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whether we have an article utopian communism or not, that is where this sort of stuff belongs: "...communism itself is stateless in theory and thus cannot be related to the actions of 20th century states." Essentially this is propaganda and is, in fact, a violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. This line served its purpose for bait and switch, but there was no sign any actual Communist movement took it seriously. Our article can include such theories but the bulk of it needs to refer to ideologies which existed or events which occured. Fred Bauder 16:04, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Concerning gift economy: how is it supposed to work on a national scale? If I want a pineapple, how will I get it in a gift economy? Do I have to go to eBay to see who is willing to give away a pineapple? Also, how does a gift economy encourage people to work and to give their best? They are not sure anyone will give them anything afterwards... Concerning capitalism and greed: the idea is that in "perfect capitalism" those that fall to the bottom work less than those that rise to the top. But "perfect capitalism" would assume that everyone has the same opportunities from the start - which is clearly not the case. Indeed, poverty itself is a reason why many people have too few alternatives. That's why any moderate capitalist will argue that the state should help the poor by providing help for better education and access to free (or at least cheap) medical services. In utopian perfect capitalism, those aids would not be necessary since no-one would be disadvantaged from the start (I know, it's a circular argument - that's why it is an utopy). Since utopias don't exist, some level of state intervention is necessary - the question is then to find the right level. BTW, getting back to Ayn Rand, that's why I said she's an extremist - she's arguing for something that cannot exist in this world. Luis rib 23:07, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Natalinasmpf, but your argument is strange. If communism is an utopia, it means it will never be possible to establish it. Thus, it is impossible to judge its merits, and therefore to say if it's good or not. In a sense, Communism would be like the Garden of Eden - another quasi-religious myth. The problem with utopias is that you cannot criticise them and not falsify them. That exactly why utopias are not scientifically valid. Sure, you can argue that communism could be so much better, but you have no means to either prove it or disprove it. I could also argue that Communism is very bad, but again would have no means to prove it. Therefore, if we confine communism to its uropian version, we should rewrite the whole article and compare it to other such utopias - like the Garden of Eden. BTW your view of capitalism is clearly totally biased, but you are right in one point: capitalism is not an utopia, it's not an ideology. That's why it is not perfect - nothing is - but at least it tries to improve things (and it certainly improved things if you compare it to feudalism or tribal economies). Seeking refuge in an utopia may be nice, but it's just a way to avoid taking difficult decisions. Luis rib 10:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No means to disprove or prove it? Communism is a pre-thought economic theory, capitalism is more of labelling of a pre-existing formula, ie. chaos theory in economics. Communism is an economic theory and pre-conceived system,, and therefore the article shoud concern it as such. Capitalism is also an economic system, and should be perceived as such. You can't demand that only the material on real-life communism be implemented, because you are forgetting that communism doesn't need to be an economic system of a nation to count as a valid theory... free software, kibbutzes, anyone? The Garden of Eden is not an ideology based on sociopolitical science.
Avoid taking difficult decisions? Are you kidding me? Oh well, continue in your defeatist attitude, but the etymylogy still remains. Communism is an economic theory, which has real life implementations, capitalism follows something similar. As long as capital (assigning an absolute value to materials to invest in) is used, its capitalism. As long as there is a commune-based society, with the correct conditions (if someone compromises, it is no longer communism), that is communism. Communism just happens to apply in more narrow situations. -- Natalinasmpf 19:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I know this will anger many people here, but shouldn't there be a section comparing Communism to other ideologies which are viewed as totalitarian? Or, if not here, maybe on Communist state? After all, it is a criticism that is often made. Also, it appears on Fascism, so at least there should be a link to that page. Waiting for your comments... Luis rib 11:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What I don't understand is the following: you (or somebody else) said that you couldn't take the USSR or China or Cambodia as an example of a communist economy because they had tried to implement it in countries that were not truly capitalist yet - and that's why it failed economically (let's forget about the human rights issues for a sec). Yet wouldn't that imply that if Communists want to succeed, they should support Capitalism in every way they can since they know that the more the society becomes capitalist, the sooner capitalism will crumble under its own contradictions and the sooner communism will emerge? Luis rib 10:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, in response to Luis' original argument, you're basically asking, shouldn't the immune system support viruses and bacteria and pathogens in every way because the they do so, the sooner the evolutionary drive to develop a better immune system emerges? The idea is to fight the pathogens, and so is the same thing for communism. -- Natalinasmpf 02:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). -- Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).
"The commies" That is just plain ignorant and babyish. Just because you may be a patriot of democracy or some such sh!t does not mean that you are right. As a matter of fact it seems that the USA tries to be totalitarian. They invade countries whose form of government they disagree with. Too bad that it was impossible for them to invade the USSR for all that time.
I personally think that communism should be a group effort to survive in all cases. Maybe the reason that it ends up failing so much is that these days there is always surplus and therefore the people that live in the society don't feel a need to share anything. Communism should have no classes whatsoever. Everyone should get paid according to the value of their service. In other words a garbage man can make as much as a doctor because he helps to avoid the very thing that the doctor is trying to cure! Everything needs to be controlled and surplus Italic textmust be held backItalic text in order to use it when it is only most necessary. People in government would be the only "higher ups" because they are really the only ones that know what's going on and are providing the greatest service to the people. Everything would be shared. Take for example a city block. There are four houses on the block and the block has at its service several cars that can be signed out on a certain day to the members of one house, a house that they do not own! The state owns everything but you just use it. Obviously it would be different for small things that must be owned for their existence to make sense. Mass transit is a better solution for transportation issues. Although Lenin said that "any idea of a god at all is the most unspeakable foulness" religion should not be discouraged.
Questions or comments?
Oh... I see. In this world then it is impossible to have pure communism because the country would most likely be overun. Then there is only one necessity and that would be a state becuase there is no other way to keep up the society in a country and not have it overun. I also didn't say to eliminate surplus. I said to save it until it is necessary. Also when forming a communist "state" you couldn't start out right away with no money. You would need to bring it in gradually since all of your citizens would be used to the idea of money. It would be useful to indoctrinate the children into not feeling the need for money. How could you prevent people from just taking advantage of free luxury items anyway? There is a need for money in the beginning but after that it can be eliminated.
Productivity falls as you increase taxation. People do not work to pay taxes. I have worked harder in the SAME job as my 'ciggarette break' taking collegues do. Thats why i should be payed more, because i work harder, i do twice as much as these young layabouts. Money is reward for hard work. People will always expect payment, women will sell their bodies for favours if you abolish fair payment and men will always gamble. Communism will fail because men like me will always exist. Communism failed for these very reasons, oh and remember under who's 'reign' the Gulag was begun. The leadership of china seem very wealthy. Just like George Galloway in his Second home in portugal! There has never been a true socialist in power. Power corrupts comrades. Welcome to the real world. -- (Unsigned comment by 81.132.70.251)
Yes but the idea of communism is to abolish the state. Not increase taxation. Who gave you idea about increasing taxes? Furthermore the idea as taxes increase, so the amount of benefits you receive from the state. However this results in some central planning, abuse and inefficiency, which is state socialism, aka Leninism, which is not what true communists advocate. Plus, you are an age discriminator because you assume that the younger are less experienced and therefore less skilled, this is such a untrue thing (intelligence over experience)...but that is irrelevant. In a communist society, you are APPRECIATED more for hard work, hence receive more gifts. Read the actual article, and actually read, will you? You cite the Soviet Union, China, gulag, etc. but let me remind you that is state socialism, and even state capitalism, therefore contrary to the true ideal and (whose governments all true communists, anarcho-communists despise). Leadership of China is wealthy because it is capitalist. There has never been a true communist in power because true communists do not seek power, but seek comfort - in peer review, a gift economy, and lack of stress, caused by an egalitarian pursuit. Those who a power-hungry aren't true communists because they are short sighted and repress their populace, which is short-sighted, and they lose our spiritually and intellectually in the end. Because they suppress the amount of amplified returns the receive through a gift economy. Communism advocates a GIFT ECONOMY. Bolsheviks, Stalinists, Maoists and Leninists and other hijackers of the cause are state capitalists who tried to seize the oppurtunity to sadistically repress the cause, not true communists, are evil, should be despised and ridiculed and be done away with for all I care. Communism does not advocate an all powerful state, nor a "dictatorship of the proleteriat". This is inane. "Communist state" is oxymoronic. -- Natalinasmpf 04:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lets analyse the word "communism" shall we? "Commune - ism" - ideology of the commune. Does it SAY anything about an authoritarian government? No. Does it say anything about dictatorship of the proleteriat? No. But what does it say? "Common" can be traced from "commune"! A community! A peer-based economy! A peer-based government! So please stop confusing communism with Leninism, Bolshevism, Pol Potism, or any other repressive ideologies. Leninism, etc. is an attempt to hijack the communist cause into making its the naive blindly commit themselves to a totalitarian state, and an act of perjury, slander, libel and defamation. That's right, the hijackers of the cause are slanderers and liars as well as human rights abusers. Communism is anarchism (just different aspects of the same ideology), and should not be confused with totalitarian ideologies. Totalitarians like Stalin, Trotsky (who was really evil anyway thanks to his actions at Kronstadt), Lenin (who dissolved the Duma, his soul can burn in the lake of sulfur), Pol Pot, Castro, etc. can get their souls tormented for all I care. However true communists like say... Emma Goldman are the real kind of communists who people ought to recognise as actual communists. (Note, I do not advocate posting this in the main article, I am just replying tit for tat to reactionary arguments, since you post your opinion, I post mine). -- Natalinasmpf 04:29, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OleMarxco from RevLeft here, in the hood. Well, me thinkesth that a real Communism has a decantralized system of control totally unlike what Soviet and China practised (which I look upon as State Capitalism - more like "Capitalists of the world, unite!") and also needs to go trough a stage of Capitalism first since industrialization must be follow trough the order that Marx wrote. Russia went straight from Feudalism to Communism, obviously that would not work. It insisted to both keep the STATE, a VANGUARD PARTY as some class -over- the proletarians, and were DEFINATELY not Communism. And communism is DEFINATELY not Anarchism, anarcho-Communism is an oxymoron: Anarchy is like "invidual over the group", Communism is collectivized communes working togheter in a perfect balance of industries and equal treatment of the people before the law: One being rewarded with material possesions proportional with your involvation in society. Excess money is flattened out to everyone, and abolished: It is impossible to "buy" oneself out of an encounter with the law by buying tricky lawyers. Therefore, there is no "classes", that is, so unlike the totalarian wannabe-Communisms, when there is a loss of resources, the weakening does not create a "scism" and a "crack" seperating people, one resources tilting to one side of society over the other, creating differences in wealth. It would decrease at society as a whole. All work is optional, but is rewarded by getting everything by rations the sooner the more you CHOOSE to work (Thus removing some people getting more money than they work for society! And no "inheriting"!)- Wherever you want, it is job rotation so you don't have to work somewhere solely to produce more than needed, but where you are needed. That is Communism - a very noble vision, indeed. But...spoiled. Capitalism is STILL not good enough, it is currently now bosses over workers, and the first world over the third world! EXPLOITING. BAH! Long live the hammer and the sickle.-- OleMurder 16:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But ah, don't treat Marx like dogma! Sure he had the right spirit, but not necessarily an entirely correct theory. Just as Newton wasn't totally correct with his idea of gravity (its relative to the space time curve, not just a simplistic force), I feel Marx is only partially correct. Industrialisation isn't needed for a successful society to occur - you set up the society first, THEN you industrialise. Anarcho-communism is hardly an oxymoron: anarchy is the "no individual has more power than another individual", power in the sense of ecopolitical oppurtunity power, not stressing that individuals should do whatever they want and run rampant with anomie. One is rewarded with economic and social resources in a gift economy for involvement in the community and thus being appreciated. Because money isn't used, no hoarding, abuse, poverty cycles and the like occurs. Communism has no higher state to enforce the law: it has principles. PEERS enforce laws. This prevents abuse from ever, ever happening (unlike the compromise of representative democratic socialism which has loopholes for abuse and plutocracy to occur). In an anarcho-communist society, there will probably be the scheme of ostraca, but in a more highly implemented form to say, provide an incentive for working for the food you receive freely. Else, people can just break off giving gifts to you. And since this isn't regulated centrally or by a higher power, there isn't any abuse. A gift economy has no "rations" - gifts are left to discernment. Contribute little, receive little. Contribute a lot, a lot of resources are used to invest in say, farming, technology, which produces more, hence growth, hence you win out by giving more, since the risk is very low. No one executes one another for not working (but except in cases of armed conflict or murder) because freedoms are respected. You cannot "ration" out rewards. It is left to the peers. If you don't work, people are disgusted at you and don't give to you. But the thing is, its based on empathy, rather than rigid laws. When its decentralised, its more flexible and people can sense the circumstances. For example, if you just lost your parents and your gift giving falls 50%, most people are generally going to be sympathetic. In a rigid law based society this probably wouldn't happen too much. Economic flexibility => higher economic growth => harmony et al. => decentralisation means harder to be attacked by enemies, easier to attack enemies. (Anybody who playes Weiqi knows this. Fluid! Formless! And your enemies will not know where to attack.) -- Natalinasmpf 20:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you very much. That is all very helpful and very LOGICAL!!! I don't see how capitalism even survives really. Lenin was partly right in that a communist revolution needs to happen everywhere at once to stay alive. Screw the thing about underdeveloped countries helping developed countries into being communists. Everything that has ever been called communism in human memory has been Capitalistic State Socialism! The reason the USA was so adamant about destroying "communism" was because the term was being missaplied to State Socailism. Communism would be the best thing that could ever happen to a society. But because of the USSR, China, North Korea, and Vietnam communism (which was actually state socialism) has made a bad name for itself. I seriously doubt that nearly anyone who thinks that they know what communism is really does know what it means. When people refer to communism they think "Communism= USSR= Evil!" If anyone knew what communism really was they would all (hopefully) join a movement. When setting up communism there would need to be mild administration at first until everyone got themselves organized. (and the politicians of this world are killed.) And now that i know what communism really is... I luv it!
That's why I hope all of you will help me overthrow the US government by educating the proletariat! God, I hate capitalism. Who here is with me? Email me at "vash_donutfreak@hotmail.com"!-- Terre Lotliby
Aye, you have my support I suppose. There is time for a change, and the hell away from all this Neo-Con bullshit we've gotten weaved into now. Hooray for revolution, and let us not repeat the previous faults! No Vanguard Party! Go Communism!-- OleMurder 22:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Good edit User:Natalinasmpf, you are quite correct. The soviet union wasn't much of a dictatorship after Stalin, and China isn't really a dictatorship either. Sam Spade 10:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think your POV is pretty clear, you wear it on your shirt sleeve and all ;) Sam Spade 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that all previous self-proclaimed "Communist"-countries gets moved instead to "State-Capitalism". That goes for both China and Soviet. At very least these were awkward socialist states with a insane vanguard party gone strait from Feudalism.-- OleMurder 07:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
What it all comes down to is that every experimental or serious attempt at Communism, large and small, has for a variety of reasons, failed. Capitalism is still going strong. When the whole Capitalist juggernaut goes Kablooie, then Communists may have room to criticize it... IF they ever get their thing going. Tom S.
Good edit User:Natalinasmpf, you are quite correct. The soviet union wasn't much of a dictatorship after Stalin, and China isn't really a dictatorship either. Sam Spade 10:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think your POV is pretty clear, you wear it on your shirt sleeve and all ;) Sam Spade 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that all previous self-proclaimed "Communist"-countries gets moved instead to "State-Capitalism". That goes for both China and Soviet. At very least these were awkward socialist states with a insane vanguard party gone strait from Feudalism.-- OleMurder 07:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
What it all comes down to is that every experimental or serious attempt at Communism, large and small, has for a variety of reasons, failed. Capitalism is still going strong. When the whole Capitalist juggernaut goes Kablooie, then Communists may have room to criticize it... IF they ever get their thing going. Tom S.
Is this supposed to be serious criticism? These sentences were some of the worst offenders:
What kind of chimpanzee? Common chimpanzees and bonobos have extremely different behaviours, although both are far more genetically similar to each other than they are to humans. The reference to other primates seems a little too vague.
This is a misrepresentation of the "selfish-gene" theory. The "selfish gene" theory says nothing about how the individual should behave. What it says is that genes evolve in a way that helps to propagate their own survival regardless of the positive, negative, or neutral effects on the individual or group. If cooperation helps all the individuals involved, and thus helps to maximize the distribution of those individuals' genes, then cooperation will evolve (remember even in the selfish gene theory it is still the individual that must survive and propagate). This misrepresentation is so egregious that it begs for a citation.
Much of the criticism section seems to just be the POV of the editors here, is there any sources for this criticism? If not, I might start deleting some of the obvious garbage within the next few days. millerc 8 July 2005 03:29 (UTC)
It should be mentioned, but it certainly doesn't belong in the "future" section. Where should we put it? -- Kennyisinvisible 9 July 2005 16:02 (UTC)
"As a political movement, communism is a more radical branch of the broader socialist movement. The communist movement differentiates itself from other branches of the socialist movement through their wish to completely do away with all aspects of market society under the final stage of the system ..."
Erm, unless I'm sorely mistaken Socialism is a branch of Communism, not the other way around. -- Kennyisinvisible 9 July 2005 16:08 (UTC)
Yes, communism is a branch of the socialist movement. The idea that socialism is a branch of the communist movement comes from the idea that it's a compromise for communist systems, which it isn't. Rather, communism is the most extreme branch of the socialist movement. However, Marxist-Leninism tends tends to go towards populism, while Kroptokin and communist anarchism is the most extreme branch of the libertarian socialist movement. Socialism has other movements (besides social democracy, which is probably what you're thinking of, democratic socialism (which is actually different), a form of bourgeois socialism (to appease), and various other forms as well. -- Natalinasmpf 9 July 2005 18:01 (UTC)
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...requires greater rationality or wisdom for the planners, or voters, or workers' council members, than is consistent with the bounded rationality of the species.
-- Christofurio 20:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
It is clarified as a criticism. And of course communism is inherently naive and/or not humanly possible, thats the point! ;) [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly Sam. Thanks for the support. Criticism of an ideological position often cocomes from an "antipathetic ideological position"! What a shock. The NPOV thing to do is to state the various antipathetic positions fairly, and some of our communist friends seem averse to having that done here. -- Christofurio 17:13, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
The criticism is so naive I don't understand how such clever people as you, Sam can fall for it. Please explain how communism requires greater rationality for voters, council members, planners, etc. than, say, for President of the US of A, the SEC commission and Federal Reserve?
Let us forget for a second that the article is about communist ideology, not about its communist state. I understand that much of criticism comes from the thought that communists were planning everything, and this is humanly impossible, no doubt. But this is a naive college-grade understanding of communism, similar to the rumors that communists have everything common: common wives, common shoes and common toothbrushes. Another misunderstanding is that plans were something chiseled in stone. Of course there were not. They were always corrected through the course of the time. Sitll, please, this is not criticism of communism. This is criticism af any centrally planned economy, and hence belongs to the latter article.
Still another point, who told you that in communist state everything was planned for best of all people? That would require inhuman amount of planning for sure. In Soviet Union the planning was for good of the state in the first turn. People were treated as livestock; bare minimality. Mikkalai 19:33, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And one more: about alleged imposibility of total planning. If it were so, modern microchips could not possibly have beed designed and you wouldn't have this wonderful computer to type your naive arguments in. Ever heard about hierarchical approach to compex tasks? Mikkalai 19:44, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As opposed to those brilliant Communist theorists (whose favored states only collapsed due to imperialist pressure) Trey Stone 03:30, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Communist in political structure, reformist in economic structure. Trey Stone 04:25, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Communism#Human_nature. This ridiculous false dicotomy between "fear of the whip" and "common benevolence" (what the heck is that?) as forms of incentives is insane. Please look up reinforcement, Operant conditioning, and economics. Fear of punishment is not a major factor in the economies of the west (outside of prison, perhaps), and I think its easier to describe say.. Pol Pots communism as having been a slavery-based economy than even the pre-civil war united states south (even ancient egypt or feudalism had alot more to the economy than fear as an incentive, and not only financialy). [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To such objections, communists reply that human nature is misrepresented by capitalists. For example, under slavery, slave owners said blacks were lazy and stupid and that whippings were necessary for productivity. Thus, communists say under what they consider capitalist wage slavery, that the same type of arguments are made as an excuse for the capitalists to expropriate surplus value from workers. This fails to take into account the role of reinforcers in Behavioral psychology, and confuses punishing reinforcers (whippings) with positive reinforcers ( money).
?how is human psychology a straw man? And how does communism reward superior performance? Isn't that in contridiction to "to each according to his need"? [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your reply is nonsensical. We live in a state of abundance because we have a powerful economic base, derived from capitalism. I am in Germany, and while the country on the whole is well off, the eastern half had (and still has) a serious disadvantage due to having been ruined by communism. And if Marxism supplies "operant conditioning" of "fame" instead of cash rewards, why were even ballerina's and Olympic athletes (positions rewarded largely by fame in the west) especially well paid in communism, while "collective" farm laborers were periodically starved to death w artificial famines regardless of how hard they worked, often on the very land which had been stolen from them by the "egalitarianism" of communism. I think that's the sort of fame they would have preferred to do without, and has little to do with either business psychology or operant conditioning. 10 pounds of propaganda doesn't buy you one pound of bread. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
luke} A lot of people think that human nature is inherantly greedy and that is the main arguement that communism can't work. i disagree, human nature can change. i refuse to believe that the British binge drinking or the US gun crime cultures are there forever and cannot change. Lenin turned the entire russian anti-semitic attitudes around in a few short revolutionary years, unfortunately Stalin reverted to it back.
The basic criticism that it would be impossible to plan a communist society is fine. Someone wants it here, and it belongs here.
Nonetheless, it is replete with a total lack of understanding of Marxism, communism and so forth. These critics of communism know next-to-nothing about Marxism or communism, as I have stated before.
The second and third sentences are: "Theoretically, in a market system, scarce skills and resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands. Without an efficient market system, prices can send the wrong signals to consumers and planners, resulting in decisions that don't reflect the choices they would make if they knew the actual costs and competing demands for those resources."
First of all the idea that "scarce...resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands" pertains to the capitalist system, not the "market" system. If one looks at the life of a commodity as production -> exchange -> consumption, how is the exchange/market system of the USSR different than the US? A worker goes into a store and exchanges rubles (or dollars) for a loaf of bread. They are both market systems (of course, it should go without saying that the USSR socialist system would be different than a communist system).
Also, that this is how capitalist systems works is just of one various competing theories. Of course, it is the one capitalists within the capitalists system prefer (although not necessarily workers). The early bourgeois economists, Adam Smith, David Ricardo etc. certainly did not believe this, and in fact shared Marx's view that value came from labor, that prices were determined by labor time and so forth. In fact, this was the accepted view when Marx began his studies and Marx agreed with it. There really was no argument against this until Hermann Heinrich Gossen published The Development of the Laws of Exchange among Men and of the Consequent Rules of Human Action, the ideas of which were fleshed out by the subjective theory of value school (marginalists). In fact, Marxism (and all of classical economics prior to HH Gossen and friends) is counterposed to this new theory of value.
Anyhow, that's just the second and third sentence. As I said, the basic ideas of this section are fine, the criticism that communism is not plannable, but STV (marginalists) ideas are just that - ideas, theories, not fact and should be marked as such. So I will be rewriting this section. Ruy Lopez 09:55, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, the first paragraph is fairly straightforward, but the next three paragraphs having to do with the skyscraper are vague and make little sense. It is about how in capitalism, a skyscraper can be planned better than in communism. There are three paragraphs leading up to an argument and then - no argument. The last paragraph is leading up to this non-existent argument: "Critics contend that the implementation of communism in the sense described above would involve supplanting precisely these market and contract conditions that make planning possible. It would be planning instead of haggling, rather than planning within the context of haggling. That is what they contend is not practicable." OK, we have an example of a skyscraper, a description of how capitalists build a skyscraper and then a simple assertion that STVers don't think communists could build a skyscraper. The reason why is not given.
I know Amish people get together and do barn-raisings in basically a communist manner - each gives according to ability and each gets according to need. Of course, a skyscraper is more complex than a barn, but if one looks back 75 years, the tallest "skyscraper" in the world was less than 800 feet high, and most of what has enabled taller buildings to be built have been advances in engineering, and the factors leading to one wanting to go to the trouble of building such a large building. Beyond the architect, building a skyscraper is not that complex - you build a floor, then build another floor, and just keep going up. Nonetheless, all of this is more of an opinion than a reason. I see no argument made here. Ruy Lopez 10:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Suppose, for purposes of comparison, we were writing a passage about criticisms of Darwinism. I might write, "There are defenders of the views of Larmark, who believe that acquired characteristics can be inherited." Would it be fair for you to change that to this? "There are, though Darwinians disagree, defenders of the view of Larmark, with whom Darwinians disagree, who believe although Darwinians disagree that acquired characteristics can be inherited, although Darwinians disagree." Does that sound NPOV? AT what point are such continued interruptions of a point simply to state and restate and re-restate the mere fact of disagreement an unfair undermining of an effort to make a point that ought to be made? Frankly, I believe there is such a point and you have crossed it. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
time congealed in a commodity.
You don't "understand" it if you need to characterize it as "magical". The market price of something is the price at whichit is being exchanged or exchangeable. You are making a pointless distinction. You seem to object to the significance of exchange prices on the grounds that they involve only a "binary decision" along the lines accept/reject. But ... so what? Digital computers work on the basis of binary on/off switches. Enough binary choices and one has a calculation -- and a result that carries information. What is "magical" about this? That you don't like it, I accept. But you make negative characterizations about its being "magic" and "mysticism" which turns out to be just new ways of restating the fact that you don't want to acknowledge the information-carrying significance of prices. Exchanged prices, of course. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
The USSR had markets too, where do you think workers went to buy bread, shirts and such things? The local market.
Anyhow, as I said before, these are two different theories. At a certain point one reaches diminishing returns discussing this, we're both simply restating over and over the differences between the LTV and STV theories. Ruy Lopez 13:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that true? I thought atheism was a common denominator. All this talk about early christian / amish / shaker communism-like activities makes my head spin. What's the deal? I thought religion was the opiate of the masses and we were to find our solace in praying to Marx or some such ;) Maybe Juche?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:42, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Communism and communist experiments existed before Marx and, in fact, before Marx most experiments with communism were of a religious nature, particularly among Christians. AndyL 12:46, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All successful communist societies have had a religious basis. They have been of moderate size, from a few hundred to a few thousand members. Their religious basis has varied from radical interpretations of Christianity such as Oneida Community to quite fundamentalist and conservative such as the Shakers of Ann Lee, many were based on German pietism. These communities were very prosperous and were the envy of their less-favored neighbors [2]. Secular efforts to imitate them such as New Harmony were unsuccessful. Fred Bauder 14:17, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Of course communism doesn't require atheism. Intrigue 00:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All Communist states (perhaps there are a few exceptions) have been atheist, yes. Recall Marx describing religion as a pointless distraction from "revolution." J. Parker Stone 01:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Early communism may not have required atheism but modern theories, and certainly Marxism, do. While everyone knows Marx's "Reiligion is the opiate of the masses" quote (I'd love to hear what he'd think of TV today), the real opposition to religion comes from its class nature. All communists strive to create a classless society and the clergy have traditionally maintained their own customs, dress codes, ideals and organisations. They are arguably the most distinct of all classes GreatGodOm 29 June 2005 13:19 (UTC)
The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand. If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off. The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness. But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would. This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo. Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making the other choices or no exchange at all. Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware. When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it. Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses. Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value. Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.-- Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
??? I don't know where to start with this! As a piece of 'market-advocacy' it is an interesting perspective, but it is not an NPOV treatment of the subject. Intrigue 15:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's an interesting point of view, but it's far from fact. Intrigue 03:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's because I am a PHP script. It's fine to quote this as a theory, and reference who thinks it, it is just that presenting it as uncontested fact is not ok. Beep beep. Intrigue 20:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, we do reference who proposes these theories, and they are a lot easier to agree on than theories about 'levels of individual satisfaction'. I certainly don't think that this theory has 90% acceptance among any reasonable group of people. I'm disturbed by your reluctance to reference it if it really is that mainstream, I'm certainly not asking for every proponent, just one or two notable ones. Intrigue 02:08, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then you should have no problems attributing this theory to some published authors. Intrigue 19:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then we're in agreement - the theory will be referenced in the article as one advanced by these people (among others)? Intrigue 18:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, this is a theory, and should not be presented as fact, but as a theory advanced by some (perhaps many) people. I'm baffled as to why you would not want to reference this as the opinion of some notable politcal theorists. We don't need to argue about whether it is right or wrong, just say who claims it. Intrigue 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Who cares? Read some more and you can dispel your own myths and misconceptions, if you wanna stop scaring yourself over something that isn't real.-- Che y Marijuana 22:02, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Socialism involves public ownership of the means of production and private ownership of everything else, while communism abolishes private ownership altogether European socialdemocracy, wich can be considered socialism even if of a moderate kind, does not involves public ownership of the means of production. And I don't think that there has been even one communist regime that has completely abolited private ownership, nor Karl Marx ever proposed to do that. Before the october revolution I think that the world communist was just a synonim of revolutionary socialist. After that it was used to refer to those socialists that had embrassed Lenin's ideas and that looked at the October Revolution as their political source of inspiration. juliet.p from Italy
This is almost a cartoonishly bad argument. Summarizing and paraphrasing just a bit, we're now saying, "some of communism's critics complainthat revolutions are bloody. To this communists reply: if the establishment didn't resist the revolution, it could all be done quickly and peacefully."
Yes, and if Haile Selassie had gone along, Mussolini's takeover of his country would have been bloodless, too. Does anybody defend the general principle that resistance as such is evil because it forces aggressors to get violent?
I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
True, it is a complicated phenomenon, and it would be great if someone could sufficiently articulate its causes. I disagree with the reading that it involves Deng conceding to capitalism's superiority; I interpret it it as a change of views - it wouldn't be any more true to say that Mussolini by changing his opinions conceded to the superiority of fascism. Nevertheless, I will take out the quote, it'd still be nice if knowledgeable persons/people could talk more about the development of Maoist economics in China. Lacrimosus 23:32, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please no revert war, I've even included a Washington Times source for you. It's a perfectly apt and reasonable quote. 172, please leave your agenda behind. Libertas
The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I made your point again in a clear, specific way. I added that the Soviet Union and China after Stalin and Mao, respectively, continued to be single party regimes that executed political opponents of the regime, though on a far smaller scale. 172 07:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
"He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism" Then, if Stalin did it, what is it part of? BTW, Trotsky said there was no such thing as "Trotskyism" and that the term was invented by Stalinists. Trotsky preferred the term "Bolshevik-Leninism". AndyL 17:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, you smell the truth. Bah, what does that matter if it were all or some? The fact that Stalin did it, is still there. And, further up, there is no Stalinism and there is no Trotskyism. It's just invidual interpretions of how Communism should be, made of them...although I prefer the latter. However; The article is neutral and is just telling history how it happened as neutrally as possible. Although I agree and changed it from "all" to "most".-- OleMurder 06:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is interesting that Trotsky would want the term "Bolshevik-Leninism" when he spent most of his life attacking the Bolsheviks and Lenin, and only joined the Bolsheviks in July of 1917 (three months before the revolution) and still spent most of his time attacking Lenin. The solution, IMO, is to not use the term "Stalinism" when writing articles about those who upheld Stalin, or to reference it in such way as to clarify the meaning. Same should be done for Trotskyites if they feel that the term "Troskyism" is incorrect. BTW, Stalin hardly crushed all dissedents. IMO, he was a little too friendly and a good purging before his death might have prevented revisonism and the eventual collapse of the USSR, and we would have a lot more hope for the future today. -- Mista-X 16:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"there is no better Bolshevik" Lenin on Trotsky.
Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, got your point. I won't put it back. However, what about the bureaucracy part? That critique seems rather relevant to me - after all it does not only apply to centrally planned states, but to any organization that has become too big. Luis rib 22:07, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror!
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I tried my best to rework the article, it needs ALOT of work. But at least now it mentions gift economies a few times.-- Che y Marijuana 03:21, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also, the other concern is its elaboration of the idea of the gift economy's part in the movement in both the critique, and the response against it, and especially in the Stalinism vs Trotskyism area. -- Natalinasmpf 20:39, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The links which Ultramarine wants to insert are problematic for a number of reasons. Leaving aside the reliability of the sites in question for the time being, the intro to this article states that it is primarily about the theory of communism. It also states that For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state. This seems more than reasonable as a way of organising discussion of such an enormous topic. And since these links all discuss the abuses of Communist-Party regimes, they don't belong here. If we have all that stuff on the crimes of Communist regimes, then what is to stop someone adding links applauding Stalin's success in raising industrial production in the USSR etc. etc etc. It is off-topic. Why should they be here? Mattley 23:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As for the Nazism article, there is a small paragraph on it, but it makes no sense to drag it all into here. If we can't do it justice on this page, as it is a big page, it should be placed almost entirely on the other page.-- Che y Marijuana 03:06, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
My last edit removed some blantant POV from the section on "Communist states." 'Executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' have taken place in capitalist societies, but what would happen if one were to put the following in the article on capitalism:
I hope that no one will attempt to put the above in the article on capitalism. That would be absurd-- just as absurd as allowing the content that I'd removed from the article to stay up... If people are interested in detailing a critique of Communist ideology based on the actions of Communist regimes, they will have to cite the research of authortative sources laying out a relationship between Communist ideology and the actions of political authorities in cases such as Stalinist Russia, Communist China, et. al. JMaxwell 21:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Finally, some claim that wars, hunger and lack of elementary medical care, causing the deaths of millions, are the results of capitalist relations of production, making capitalism the single most violent socio-economic system in history. This view, however, is widely criticised, since most wars, famines or epidemics happened in countries that were not really capitalist.
This discussion has already taken place in other talk pages, and there's no need to repeat it here. People looking for information on communism SHOULD find some reference to what happened in countries that officially claimed to be communist. The facts are not in dispute, in any case (there's just some argument on the precise number of deaths, etc.). Your comparison with capitalism is spurious, since capitalism is not as wide-spread as you claim. Certainly not all non-communist states are capitalist. Indeed, most African countries were not capitalist, and neither was Latin America (with the possible exception of Chile). Luis rib 23:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your claim that capitalism is associated with war is a complete fallacy. I am not making this claim. My point is that all 'executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' occurred throughout history in societies where private ownership of the means of production dominated economic output. However, whether or not there was a relationship to capitalism and these occurrences is not for Wikipedia to decide, due to the NPOV policy; instead, this is a matter to be taken up in social science academic journals. In the same vein, Wikipedia cannot assert a relationship between every occurrence under Communist regimes and Communist ideology... If you want to cite authoritative source making this claim, feel free to do so. At the same time, this claim must be balanced with other POVs. JMaxwell 01:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
From Communist states:
Yawn. We're all familiar with Rummel, Conquest, Pipes, and the bulk of these authors. Copying and pasting this list, however, is not a license to write a biased diatribe blaming everything occurring under Communist regimes on Communism independent of other factors, such as the social problems inherited from the old regimes... Incidentally, if a Marxist decided to apply your reasoning to the capitalism article, he could just as easily generate a list of Marxist academics who relate capitalism to the great power rivalries leading up to the First World War, the Second World War, and the rise of fascism, and then in turn proceed to blame all the horrors and atrocities of the interwar era on capitalism. JMaxwell 04:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have kept this on my watchlist, although I had taken a vacation from it for various reasons. The article seems somewhat improved; there is at least brief mention of the horrendous consequences of the Communist adventure. This introduction:
":This article is about communism as a form of society built around a gift economy, as an ideology advocating that form of society, and as a popular movement. For issues regarding the organization of the communist movement, see the Communist party article. For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state.
represents, however, an attempt to distance the article from the realities of practical communism as we have known it in our lifetime and especially from the realities of being involved in the movement.
One note: This article is not about capitalism and the problems capitalism has. That material needs to go in the article, capitalism. Yet, the communist movement cannot be considered apart from capitalism as much of its energy comes from the consequences of capitalist organization of the economy. Fred Bauder 14:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
No, but neither is the capitalist article going to be mainly about the problems it has. The communism article is good for criticising capitalism from the perspective of a communist economic system. And cannot considered apart? You're basically saying that the immune system really shouldn't be considered apart from viruses, bacteria and cancer cells because much of the "energy" and evolutionary drive to develop an immune system comes from the consequences of pathogen organisation in the body? -- Natalinasmpf 16:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whether we have an article utopian communism or not, that is where this sort of stuff belongs: "...communism itself is stateless in theory and thus cannot be related to the actions of 20th century states." Essentially this is propaganda and is, in fact, a violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. This line served its purpose for bait and switch, but there was no sign any actual Communist movement took it seriously. Our article can include such theories but the bulk of it needs to refer to ideologies which existed or events which occured. Fred Bauder 16:04, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Concerning gift economy: how is it supposed to work on a national scale? If I want a pineapple, how will I get it in a gift economy? Do I have to go to eBay to see who is willing to give away a pineapple? Also, how does a gift economy encourage people to work and to give their best? They are not sure anyone will give them anything afterwards... Concerning capitalism and greed: the idea is that in "perfect capitalism" those that fall to the bottom work less than those that rise to the top. But "perfect capitalism" would assume that everyone has the same opportunities from the start - which is clearly not the case. Indeed, poverty itself is a reason why many people have too few alternatives. That's why any moderate capitalist will argue that the state should help the poor by providing help for better education and access to free (or at least cheap) medical services. In utopian perfect capitalism, those aids would not be necessary since no-one would be disadvantaged from the start (I know, it's a circular argument - that's why it is an utopy). Since utopias don't exist, some level of state intervention is necessary - the question is then to find the right level. BTW, getting back to Ayn Rand, that's why I said she's an extremist - she's arguing for something that cannot exist in this world. Luis rib 23:07, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Natalinasmpf, but your argument is strange. If communism is an utopia, it means it will never be possible to establish it. Thus, it is impossible to judge its merits, and therefore to say if it's good or not. In a sense, Communism would be like the Garden of Eden - another quasi-religious myth. The problem with utopias is that you cannot criticise them and not falsify them. That exactly why utopias are not scientifically valid. Sure, you can argue that communism could be so much better, but you have no means to either prove it or disprove it. I could also argue that Communism is very bad, but again would have no means to prove it. Therefore, if we confine communism to its uropian version, we should rewrite the whole article and compare it to other such utopias - like the Garden of Eden. BTW your view of capitalism is clearly totally biased, but you are right in one point: capitalism is not an utopia, it's not an ideology. That's why it is not perfect - nothing is - but at least it tries to improve things (and it certainly improved things if you compare it to feudalism or tribal economies). Seeking refuge in an utopia may be nice, but it's just a way to avoid taking difficult decisions. Luis rib 10:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No means to disprove or prove it? Communism is a pre-thought economic theory, capitalism is more of labelling of a pre-existing formula, ie. chaos theory in economics. Communism is an economic theory and pre-conceived system,, and therefore the article shoud concern it as such. Capitalism is also an economic system, and should be perceived as such. You can't demand that only the material on real-life communism be implemented, because you are forgetting that communism doesn't need to be an economic system of a nation to count as a valid theory... free software, kibbutzes, anyone? The Garden of Eden is not an ideology based on sociopolitical science.
Avoid taking difficult decisions? Are you kidding me? Oh well, continue in your defeatist attitude, but the etymylogy still remains. Communism is an economic theory, which has real life implementations, capitalism follows something similar. As long as capital (assigning an absolute value to materials to invest in) is used, its capitalism. As long as there is a commune-based society, with the correct conditions (if someone compromises, it is no longer communism), that is communism. Communism just happens to apply in more narrow situations. -- Natalinasmpf 19:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I know this will anger many people here, but shouldn't there be a section comparing Communism to other ideologies which are viewed as totalitarian? Or, if not here, maybe on Communist state? After all, it is a criticism that is often made. Also, it appears on Fascism, so at least there should be a link to that page. Waiting for your comments... Luis rib 11:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What I don't understand is the following: you (or somebody else) said that you couldn't take the USSR or China or Cambodia as an example of a communist economy because they had tried to implement it in countries that were not truly capitalist yet - and that's why it failed economically (let's forget about the human rights issues for a sec). Yet wouldn't that imply that if Communists want to succeed, they should support Capitalism in every way they can since they know that the more the society becomes capitalist, the sooner capitalism will crumble under its own contradictions and the sooner communism will emerge? Luis rib 10:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, in response to Luis' original argument, you're basically asking, shouldn't the immune system support viruses and bacteria and pathogens in every way because the they do so, the sooner the evolutionary drive to develop a better immune system emerges? The idea is to fight the pathogens, and so is the same thing for communism. -- Natalinasmpf 02:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). -- Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).
"The commies" That is just plain ignorant and babyish. Just because you may be a patriot of democracy or some such sh!t does not mean that you are right. As a matter of fact it seems that the USA tries to be totalitarian. They invade countries whose form of government they disagree with. Too bad that it was impossible for them to invade the USSR for all that time.
...requires greater rationality or wisdom for the planners, or voters, or workers' council members, than is consistent with the bounded rationality of the species.
-- Christofurio 20:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
It is clarified as a criticism. And of course communism is inherently naive and/or not humanly possible, thats the point! ;) [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly Sam. Thanks for the support. Criticism of an ideological position often cocomes from an "antipathetic ideological position"! What a shock. The NPOV thing to do is to state the various antipathetic positions fairly, and some of our communist friends seem averse to having that done here. -- Christofurio 17:13, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
The criticism is so naive I don't understand how such clever people as you, Sam can fall for it. Please explain how communism requires greater rationality for voters, council members, planners, etc. than, say, for President of the US of A, the SEC commission and Federal Reserve?
Let us forget for a second that the article is about communist ideology, not about its communist state. I understand that much of criticism comes from the thought that communists were planning everything, and this is humanly impossible, no doubt. But this is a naive college-grade understanding of communism, similar to the rumors that communists have everything common: common wives, common shoes and common toothbrushes. Another misunderstanding is that plans were something chiseled in stone. Of course there were not. They were always corrected through the course of the time. Sitll, please, this is not criticism of communism. This is criticism af any centrally planned economy, and hence belongs to the latter article.
Still another point, who told you that in communist state everything was planned for best of all people? That would require inhuman amount of planning for sure. In Soviet Union the planning was for good of the state in the first turn. People were treated as livestock; bare minimality. Mikkalai 19:33, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And one more: about alleged imposibility of total planning. If it were so, modern microchips could not possibly have beed designed and you wouldn't have this wonderful computer to type your naive arguments in. Ever heard about hierarchical approach to compex tasks? Mikkalai 19:44, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As opposed to those brilliant Communist theorists (whose favored states only collapsed due to imperialist pressure) Trey Stone 03:30, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Communist in political structure, reformist in economic structure. Trey Stone 04:25, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Communism#Human_nature. This ridiculous false dicotomy between "fear of the whip" and "common benevolence" (what the heck is that?) as forms of incentives is insane. Please look up reinforcement, Operant conditioning, and economics. Fear of punishment is not a major factor in the economies of the west (outside of prison, perhaps), and I think its easier to describe say.. Pol Pots communism as having been a slavery-based economy than even the pre-civil war united states south (even ancient egypt or feudalism had alot more to the economy than fear as an incentive, and not only financialy). [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To such objections, communists reply that human nature is misrepresented by capitalists. For example, under slavery, slave owners said blacks were lazy and stupid and that whippings were necessary for productivity. Thus, communists say under what they consider capitalist wage slavery, that the same type of arguments are made as an excuse for the capitalists to expropriate surplus value from workers. This fails to take into account the role of reinforcers in Behavioral psychology, and confuses punishing reinforcers (whippings) with positive reinforcers ( money).
?how is human psychology a straw man? And how does communism reward superior performance? Isn't that in contridiction to "to each according to his need"? [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your reply is nonsensical. We live in a state of abundance because we have a powerful economic base, derived from capitalism. I am in Germany, and while the country on the whole is well off, the eastern half had (and still has) a serious disadvantage due to having been ruined by communism. And if Marxism supplies "operant conditioning" of "fame" instead of cash rewards, why were even ballerina's and Olympic athletes (positions rewarded largely by fame in the west) especially well paid in communism, while "collective" farm laborers were periodically starved to death w artificial famines regardless of how hard they worked, often on the very land which had been stolen from them by the "egalitarianism" of communism. I think that's the sort of fame they would have preferred to do without, and has little to do with either business psychology or operant conditioning. 10 pounds of propaganda doesn't buy you one pound of bread. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
luke} A lot of people think that human nature is inherantly greedy and that is the main arguement that communism can't work. i disagree, human nature can change. i refuse to believe that the British binge drinking or the US gun crime cultures are there forever and cannot change. Lenin turned the entire russian anti-semitic attitudes around in a few short revolutionary years, unfortunately Stalin reverted to it back.
The basic criticism that it would be impossible to plan a communist society is fine. Someone wants it here, and it belongs here.
Nonetheless, it is replete with a total lack of understanding of Marxism, communism and so forth. These critics of communism know next-to-nothing about Marxism or communism, as I have stated before.
The second and third sentences are: "Theoretically, in a market system, scarce skills and resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands. Without an efficient market system, prices can send the wrong signals to consumers and planners, resulting in decisions that don't reflect the choices they would make if they knew the actual costs and competing demands for those resources."
First of all the idea that "scarce...resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands" pertains to the capitalist system, not the "market" system. If one looks at the life of a commodity as production -> exchange -> consumption, how is the exchange/market system of the USSR different than the US? A worker goes into a store and exchanges rubles (or dollars) for a loaf of bread. They are both market systems (of course, it should go without saying that the USSR socialist system would be different than a communist system).
Also, that this is how capitalist systems works is just of one various competing theories. Of course, it is the one capitalists within the capitalists system prefer (although not necessarily workers). The early bourgeois economists, Adam Smith, David Ricardo etc. certainly did not believe this, and in fact shared Marx's view that value came from labor, that prices were determined by labor time and so forth. In fact, this was the accepted view when Marx began his studies and Marx agreed with it. There really was no argument against this until Hermann Heinrich Gossen published The Development of the Laws of Exchange among Men and of the Consequent Rules of Human Action, the ideas of which were fleshed out by the subjective theory of value school (marginalists). In fact, Marxism (and all of classical economics prior to HH Gossen and friends) is counterposed to this new theory of value.
Anyhow, that's just the second and third sentence. As I said, the basic ideas of this section are fine, the criticism that communism is not plannable, but STV (marginalists) ideas are just that - ideas, theories, not fact and should be marked as such. So I will be rewriting this section. Ruy Lopez 09:55, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, the first paragraph is fairly straightforward, but the next three paragraphs having to do with the skyscraper are vague and make little sense. It is about how in capitalism, a skyscraper can be planned better than in communism. There are three paragraphs leading up to an argument and then - no argument. The last paragraph is leading up to this non-existent argument: "Critics contend that the implementation of communism in the sense described above would involve supplanting precisely these market and contract conditions that make planning possible. It would be planning instead of haggling, rather than planning within the context of haggling. That is what they contend is not practicable." OK, we have an example of a skyscraper, a description of how capitalists build a skyscraper and then a simple assertion that STVers don't think communists could build a skyscraper. The reason why is not given.
I know Amish people get together and do barn-raisings in basically a communist manner - each gives according to ability and each gets according to need. Of course, a skyscraper is more complex than a barn, but if one looks back 75 years, the tallest "skyscraper" in the world was less than 800 feet high, and most of what has enabled taller buildings to be built have been advances in engineering, and the factors leading to one wanting to go to the trouble of building such a large building. Beyond the architect, building a skyscraper is not that complex - you build a floor, then build another floor, and just keep going up. Nonetheless, all of this is more of an opinion than a reason. I see no argument made here. Ruy Lopez 10:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Suppose, for purposes of comparison, we were writing a passage about criticisms of Darwinism. I might write, "There are defenders of the views of Larmark, who believe that acquired characteristics can be inherited." Would it be fair for you to change that to this? "There are, though Darwinians disagree, defenders of the view of Larmark, with whom Darwinians disagree, who believe although Darwinians disagree that acquired characteristics can be inherited, although Darwinians disagree." Does that sound NPOV? AT what point are such continued interruptions of a point simply to state and restate and re-restate the mere fact of disagreement an unfair undermining of an effort to make a point that ought to be made? Frankly, I believe there is such a point and you have crossed it. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
time congealed in a commodity.
You don't "understand" it if you need to characterize it as "magical". The market price of something is the price at whichit is being exchanged or exchangeable. You are making a pointless distinction. You seem to object to the significance of exchange prices on the grounds that they involve only a "binary decision" along the lines accept/reject. But ... so what? Digital computers work on the basis of binary on/off switches. Enough binary choices and one has a calculation -- and a result that carries information. What is "magical" about this? That you don't like it, I accept. But you make negative characterizations about its being "magic" and "mysticism" which turns out to be just new ways of restating the fact that you don't want to acknowledge the information-carrying significance of prices. Exchanged prices, of course. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
The USSR had markets too, where do you think workers went to buy bread, shirts and such things? The local market.
Anyhow, as I said before, these are two different theories. At a certain point one reaches diminishing returns discussing this, we're both simply restating over and over the differences between the LTV and STV theories. Ruy Lopez 13:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that true? I thought atheism was a common denominator. All this talk about early christian / amish / shaker communism-like activities makes my head spin. What's the deal? I thought religion was the opiate of the masses and we were to find our solace in praying to Marx or some such ;) Maybe Juche?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:42, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Communism and communist experiments existed before Marx and, in fact, before Marx most experiments with communism were of a religious nature, particularly among Christians. AndyL 12:46, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All successful communist societies have had a religious basis. They have been of moderate size, from a few hundred to a few thousand members. Their religious basis has varied from radical interpretations of Christianity such as Oneida Community to quite fundamentalist and conservative such as the Shakers of Ann Lee, many were based on German pietism. These communities were very prosperous and were the envy of their less-favored neighbors [9]. Secular efforts to imitate them such as New Harmony were unsuccessful. Fred Bauder 14:17, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Of course communism doesn't require atheism. Intrigue 00:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All Communist states (perhaps there are a few exceptions) have been atheist, yes. Recall Marx describing religion as a pointless distraction from "revolution." J. Parker Stone 01:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Early communism may not have required atheism but modern theories, and certainly Marxism, do. While everyone knows Marx's "Reiligion is the opiate of the masses" quote (I'd love to hear what he'd think of TV today), the real opposition to religion comes from its class nature. All communists strive to create a classless society and the clergy have traditionally maintained their own customs, dress codes, ideals and organisations. They are arguably the most distinct of all classes GreatGodOm 29 June 2005 13:19 (UTC)
The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand. If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off. The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness. But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would. This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo. Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making the other choices or no exchange at all. Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware. When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it. Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses. Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value. Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.-- Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
??? I don't know where to start with this! As a piece of 'market-advocacy' it is an interesting perspective, but it is not an NPOV treatment of the subject. Intrigue 15:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's an interesting point of view, but it's far from fact. Intrigue 03:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's because I am a PHP script. It's fine to quote this as a theory, and reference who thinks it, it is just that presenting it as uncontested fact is not ok. Beep beep. Intrigue 20:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, we do reference who proposes these theories, and they are a lot easier to agree on than theories about 'levels of individual satisfaction'. I certainly don't think that this theory has 90% acceptance among any reasonable group of people. I'm disturbed by your reluctance to reference it if it really is that mainstream, I'm certainly not asking for every proponent, just one or two notable ones. Intrigue 02:08, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then you should have no problems attributing this theory to some published authors. Intrigue 19:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then we're in agreement - the theory will be referenced in the article as one advanced by these people (among others)? Intrigue 18:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, this is a theory, and should not be presented as fact, but as a theory advanced by some (perhaps many) people. I'm baffled as to why you would not want to reference this as the opinion of some notable politcal theorists. We don't need to argue about whether it is right or wrong, just say who claims it. Intrigue 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Who cares? Read some more and you can dispel your own myths and misconceptions, if you wanna stop scaring yourself over something that isn't real.-- Che y Marijuana 22:02, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Socialism involves public ownership of the means of production and private ownership of everything else, while communism abolishes private ownership altogether European socialdemocracy, wich can be considered socialism even if of a moderate kind, does not involves public ownership of the means of production. And I don't think that there has been even one communist regime that has completely abolited private ownership, nor Karl Marx ever proposed to do that. Before the october revolution I think that the world communist was just a synonim of revolutionary socialist. After that it was used to refer to those socialists that had embrassed Lenin's ideas and that looked at the October Revolution as their political source of inspiration. juliet.p from Italy
This is almost a cartoonishly bad argument. Summarizing and paraphrasing just a bit, we're now saying, "some of communism's critics complainthat revolutions are bloody. To this communists reply: if the establishment didn't resist the revolution, it could all be done quickly and peacefully."
Yes, and if Haile Selassie had gone along, Mussolini's takeover of his country would have been bloodless, too. Does anybody defend the general principle that resistance as such is evil because it forces aggressors to get violent?
I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
True, it is a complicated phenomenon, and it would be great if someone could sufficiently articulate its causes. I disagree with the reading that it involves Deng conceding to capitalism's superiority; I interpret it it as a change of views - it wouldn't be any more true to say that Mussolini by changing his opinions conceded to the superiority of fascism. Nevertheless, I will take out the quote, it'd still be nice if knowledgeable persons/people could talk more about the development of Maoist economics in China. Lacrimosus 23:32, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please no revert war, I've even included a Washington Times source for you. It's a perfectly apt and reasonable quote. 172, please leave your agenda behind. Libertas
The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What about red and or gold stars?\ Dudtz 7/30/05 3:52 PM EST
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I made your point again in a clear, specific way. I added that the Soviet Union and China after Stalin and Mao, respectively, continued to be single party regimes that executed political opponents of the regime, though on a far smaller scale. 172 07:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
"He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism" Then, if Stalin did it, what is it part of? BTW, Trotsky said there was no such thing as "Trotskyism" and that the term was invented by Stalinists. Trotsky preferred the term "Bolshevik-Leninism". AndyL 17:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, you smell the truth. Bah, what does that matter if it were all or some? The fact that Stalin did it, is still there. And, further up, there is no Stalinism and there is no Trotskyism. It's just invidual interpretions of how Communism should be, made of them...although I prefer the latter. However; The article is neutral and is just telling history how it happened as neutrally as possible. Although I agree and changed it from "all" to "most".-- OleMurder 06:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is interesting that Trotsky would want the term "Bolshevik-Leninism" when he spent most of his life attacking the Bolsheviks and Lenin, and only joined the Bolsheviks in July of 1917 (three months before the revolution) and still spent most of his time attacking Lenin. The solution, IMO, is to not use the term "Stalinism" when writing articles about those who upheld Stalin, or to reference it in such way as to clarify the meaning. Same should be done for Trotskyites if they feel that the term "Troskyism" is incorrect. BTW, Stalin hardly crushed all dissedents. IMO, he was a little too friendly and a good purging before his death might have prevented revisonism and the eventual collapse of the USSR, and we would have a lot more hope for the future today. -- Mista-X 16:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"there is no better Bolshevik" Lenin on Trotsky.
Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, got your point. I won't put it back. However, what about the bureaucracy part? That critique seems rather relevant to me - after all it does not only apply to centrally planned states, but to any organization that has become too big. Luis rib 22:07, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror!
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I tried my best to rework the article, it needs ALOT of work. But at least now it mentions gift economies a few times.-- Che y Marijuana 03:21, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also, the other concern is its elaboration of the idea of the gift economy's part in the movement in both the critique, and the response against it, and especially in the Stalinism vs Trotskyism area. -- Natalinasmpf 20:39, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The links which Ultramarine wants to insert are problematic for a number of reasons. Leaving aside the reliability of the sites in question for the time being, the intro to this article states that it is primarily about the theory of communism. It also states that For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state. This seems more than reasonable as a way of organising discussion of such an enormous topic. And since these links all discuss the abuses of Communist-Party regimes, they don't belong here. If we have all that stuff on the crimes of Communist regimes, then what is to stop someone adding links applauding Stalin's success in raising industrial production in the USSR etc. etc etc. It is off-topic. Why should they be here? Mattley 23:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As for the Nazism article, there is a small paragraph on it, but it makes no sense to drag it all into here. If we can't do it justice on this page, as it is a big page, it should be placed almost entirely on the other page.-- Che y Marijuana 03:06, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
My last edit removed some blantant POV from the section on "Communist states." 'Executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' have taken place in capitalist societies, but what would happen if one were to put the following in the article on capitalism:
I hope that no one will attempt to put the above in the article on capitalism. That would be absurd-- just as absurd as allowing the content that I'd removed from the article to stay up... If people are interested in detailing a critique of Communist ideology based on the actions of Communist regimes, they will have to cite the research of authortative sources laying out a relationship between Communist ideology and the actions of political authorities in cases such as Stalinist Russia, Communist China, et. al. JMaxwell 21:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Finally, some claim that wars, hunger and lack of elementary medical care, causing the deaths of millions, are the results of capitalist relations of production, making capitalism the single most violent socio-economic system in history. This view, however, is widely criticised, since most wars, famines or epidemics happened in countries that were not really capitalist.
This discussion has already taken place in other talk pages, and there's no need to repeat it here. People looking for information on communism SHOULD find some reference to what happened in countries that officially claimed to be communist. The facts are not in dispute, in any case (there's just some argument on the precise number of deaths, etc.). Your comparison with capitalism is spurious, since capitalism is not as wide-spread as you claim. Certainly not all non-communist states are capitalist. Indeed, most African countries were not capitalist, and neither was Latin America (with the possible exception of Chile). Luis rib 23:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your claim that capitalism is associated with war is a complete fallacy. I am not making this claim. My point is that all 'executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' occurred throughout history in societies where private ownership of the means of production dominated economic output. However, whether or not there was a relationship to capitalism and these occurrences is not for Wikipedia to decide, due to the NPOV policy; instead, this is a matter to be taken up in social science academic journals. In the same vein, Wikipedia cannot assert a relationship between every occurrence under Communist regimes and Communist ideology... If you want to cite authoritative source making this claim, feel free to do so. At the same time, this claim must be balanced with other POVs. JMaxwell 01:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
From Communist states:
Yawn. We're all familiar with Rummel, Conquest, Pipes, and the bulk of these authors. Copying and pasting this list, however, is not a license to write a biased diatribe blaming everything occurring under Communist regimes on Communism independent of other factors, such as the social problems inherited from the old regimes... Incidentally, if a Marxist decided to apply your reasoning to the capitalism article, he could just as easily generate a list of Marxist academics who relate capitalism to the great power rivalries leading up to the First World War, the Second World War, and the rise of fascism, and then in turn proceed to blame all the horrors and atrocities of the interwar era on capitalism. JMaxwell 04:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have kept this on my watchlist, although I had taken a vacation from it for various reasons. The article seems somewhat improved; there is at least brief mention of the horrendous consequences of the Communist adventure. This introduction:
":This article is about communism as a form of society built around a gift economy, as an ideology advocating that form of society, and as a popular movement. For issues regarding the organization of the communist movement, see the Communist party article. For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state.
represents, however, an attempt to distance the article from the realities of practical communism as we have known it in our lifetime and especially from the realities of being involved in the movement.
One note: This article is not about capitalism and the problems capitalism has. That material needs to go in the article, capitalism. Yet, the communist movement cannot be considered apart from capitalism as much of its energy comes from the consequences of capitalist organization of the economy. Fred Bauder 14:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
No, but neither is the capitalist article going to be mainly about the problems it has. The communism article is good for criticising capitalism from the perspective of a communist economic system. And cannot considered apart? You're basically saying that the immune system really shouldn't be considered apart from viruses, bacteria and cancer cells because much of the "energy" and evolutionary drive to develop an immune system comes from the consequences of pathogen organisation in the body? -- Natalinasmpf 16:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whether we have an article utopian communism or not, that is where this sort of stuff belongs: "...communism itself is stateless in theory and thus cannot be related to the actions of 20th century states." Essentially this is propaganda and is, in fact, a violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. This line served its purpose for bait and switch, but there was no sign any actual Communist movement took it seriously. Our article can include such theories but the bulk of it needs to refer to ideologies which existed or events which occured. Fred Bauder 16:04, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Concerning gift economy: how is it supposed to work on a national scale? If I want a pineapple, how will I get it in a gift economy? Do I have to go to eBay to see who is willing to give away a pineapple? Also, how does a gift economy encourage people to work and to give their best? They are not sure anyone will give them anything afterwards... Concerning capitalism and greed: the idea is that in "perfect capitalism" those that fall to the bottom work less than those that rise to the top. But "perfect capitalism" would assume that everyone has the same opportunities from the start - which is clearly not the case. Indeed, poverty itself is a reason why many people have too few alternatives. That's why any moderate capitalist will argue that the state should help the poor by providing help for better education and access to free (or at least cheap) medical services. In utopian perfect capitalism, those aids would not be necessary since no-one would be disadvantaged from the start (I know, it's a circular argument - that's why it is an utopy). Since utopias don't exist, some level of state intervention is necessary - the question is then to find the right level. BTW, getting back to Ayn Rand, that's why I said she's an extremist - she's arguing for something that cannot exist in this world. Luis rib 23:07, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Natalinasmpf, but your argument is strange. If communism is an utopia, it means it will never be possible to establish it. Thus, it is impossible to judge its merits, and therefore to say if it's good or not. In a sense, Communism would be like the Garden of Eden - another quasi-religious myth. The problem with utopias is that you cannot criticise them and not falsify them. That exactly why utopias are not scientifically valid. Sure, you can argue that communism could be so much better, but you have no means to either prove it or disprove it. I could also argue that Communism is very bad, but again would have no means to prove it. Therefore, if we confine communism to its uropian version, we should rewrite the whole article and compare it to other such utopias - like the Garden of Eden. BTW your view of capitalism is clearly totally biased, but you are right in one point: capitalism is not an utopia, it's not an ideology. That's why it is not perfect - nothing is - but at least it tries to improve things (and it certainly improved things if you compare it to feudalism or tribal economies). Seeking refuge in an utopia may be nice, but it's just a way to avoid taking difficult decisions. Luis rib 10:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No means to disprove or prove it? Communism is a pre-thought economic theory, capitalism is more of labelling of a pre-existing formula, ie. chaos theory in economics. Communism is an economic theory and pre-conceived system,, and therefore the article shoud concern it as such. Capitalism is also an economic system, and should be perceived as such. You can't demand that only the material on real-life communism be implemented, because you are forgetting that communism doesn't need to be an economic system of a nation to count as a valid theory... free software, kibbutzes, anyone? The Garden of Eden is not an ideology based on sociopolitical science.
Avoid taking difficult decisions? Are you kidding me? Oh well, continue in your defeatist attitude, but the etymylogy still remains. Communism is an economic theory, which has real life implementations, capitalism follows something similar. As long as capital (assigning an absolute value to materials to invest in) is used, its capitalism. As long as there is a commune-based society, with the correct conditions (if someone compromises, it is no longer communism), that is communism. Communism just happens to apply in more narrow situations. -- Natalinasmpf 19:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I know this will anger many people here, but shouldn't there be a section comparing Communism to other ideologies which are viewed as totalitarian? Or, if not here, maybe on Communist state? After all, it is a criticism that is often made. Also, it appears on Fascism, so at least there should be a link to that page. Waiting for your comments... Luis rib 11:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What I don't understand is the following: you (or somebody else) said that you couldn't take the USSR or China or Cambodia as an example of a communist economy because they had tried to implement it in countries that were not truly capitalist yet - and that's why it failed economically (let's forget about the human rights issues for a sec). Yet wouldn't that imply that if Communists want to succeed, they should support Capitalism in every way they can since they know that the more the society becomes capitalist, the sooner capitalism will crumble under its own contradictions and the sooner communism will emerge? Luis rib 10:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, in response to Luis' original argument, you're basically asking, shouldn't the immune system support viruses and bacteria and pathogens in every way because the they do so, the sooner the evolutionary drive to develop a better immune system emerges? The idea is to fight the pathogens, and so is the same thing for communism. -- Natalinasmpf 02:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). -- Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).
"The commies" That is just plain ignorant and babyish. Just because you may be a patriot of democracy or some such sh!t does not mean that you are right. As a matter of fact it seems that the USA tries to be totalitarian. They invade countries whose form of government they disagree with. Too bad that it was impossible for them to invade the USSR for all that time.
I personally think that communism should be a group effort to survive in all cases. Maybe the reason that it ends up failing so much is that these days there is always surplus and therefore the people that live in the society don't feel a need to share anything. Communism should have no classes whatsoever. Everyone should get paid according to the value of their service. In other words a garbage man can make as much as a doctor because he helps to avoid the very thing that the doctor is trying to cure! Everything needs to be controlled and surplus Italic textmust be held backItalic text in order to use it when it is only most necessary. People in government would be the only "higher ups" because they are really the only ones that know what's going on and are providing the greatest service to the people. Everything would be shared. Take for example a city block. There are four houses on the block and the block has at its service several cars that can be signed out on a certain day to the members of one house, a house that they do not own! The state owns everything but you just use it. Obviously it would be different for small things that must be owned for their existence to make sense. Mass transit is a better solution for transportation issues. Although Lenin said that "any idea of a god at all is the most unspeakable foulness" religion should not be discouraged.
Questions or comments?
Oh... I see. In this world then it is impossible to have pure communism because the country would most likely be overun. Then there is only one necessity and that would be a state becuase there is no other way to keep up the society in a country and not have it overun. I also didn't say to eliminate surplus. I said to save it until it is necessary. Also when forming a communist "state" you couldn't start out right away with no money. You would need to bring it in gradually since all of your citizens would be used to the idea of money. It would be useful to indoctrinate the children into not feeling the need for money. How could you prevent people from just taking advantage of free luxury items anyway? There is a need for money in the beginning but after that it can be eliminated.
Productivity falls as you increase taxation. People do not work to pay taxes. I have worked harder in the SAME job as my 'ciggarette break' taking collegues do. Thats why i should be payed more, because i work harder, i do twice as much as these young layabouts. Money is reward for hard work. People will always expect payment, women will sell their bodies for favours if you abolish fair payment and men will always gamble. Communism will fail because men like me will always exist. Communism failed for these very reasons, oh and remember under who's 'reign' the Gulag was begun. The leadership of china seem very wealthy. Just like George Galloway in his Second home in portugal! There has never been a true socialist in power. Power corrupts comrades. Welcome to the real world. -- (Unsigned comment by 81.132.70.251)
Yes but the idea of communism is to abolish the state. Not increase taxation. Who gave you idea about increasing taxes? Furthermore the idea as taxes increase, so the amount of benefits you receive from the state. However this results in some central planning, abuse and inefficiency, which is state socialism, aka Leninism, which is not what true communists advocate. Plus, you are an age discriminator because you assume that the younger are less experienced and therefore less skilled, this is such a untrue thing (intelligence over experience)...but that is irrelevant. In a communist society, you are APPRECIATED more for hard work, hence receive more gifts. Read the actual article, and actually read, will you? You cite the Soviet Union, China, gulag, etc. but let me remind you that is state socialism, and even state capitalism, therefore contrary to the true ideal and (whose governments all true communists, anarcho-communists despise). Leadership of China is wealthy because it is capitalist. There has never been a true communist in power because true communists do not seek power, but seek comfort - in peer review, a gift economy, and lack of stress, caused by an egalitarian pursuit. Those who a power-hungry aren't true communists because they are short sighted and repress their populace, which is short-sighted, and they lose our spiritually and intellectually in the end. Because they suppress the amount of amplified returns the receive through a gift economy. Communism advocates a GIFT ECONOMY. Bolsheviks, Stalinists, Maoists and Leninists and other hijackers of the cause are state capitalists who tried to seize the oppurtunity to sadistically repress the cause, not true communists, are evil, should be despised and ridiculed and be done away with for all I care. Communism does not advocate an all powerful state, nor a "dictatorship of the proleteriat". This is inane. "Communist state" is oxymoronic. -- Natalinasmpf 04:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lets analyse the word "communism" shall we? "Commune - ism" - ideology of the commune. Does it SAY anything about an authoritarian government? No. Does it say anything about dictatorship of the proleteriat? No. But what does it say? "Common" can be traced from "commune"! A community! A peer-based economy! A peer-based government! So please stop confusing communism with Leninism, Bolshevism, Pol Potism, or any other repressive ideologies. Leninism, etc. is an attempt to hijack the communist cause into making its the naive blindly commit themselves to a totalitarian state, and an act of perjury, slander, libel and defamation. That's right, the hijackers of the cause are slanderers and liars as well as human rights abusers. Communism is anarchism (just different aspects of the same ideology), and should not be confused with totalitarian ideologies. Totalitarians like Stalin, Trotsky (who was really evil anyway thanks to his actions at Kronstadt), Lenin (who dissolved the Duma, his soul can burn in the lake of sulfur), Pol Pot, Castro, etc. can get their souls tormented for all I care. However true communists like say... Emma Goldman are the real kind of communists who people ought to recognise as actual communists. (Note, I do not advocate posting this in the main article, I am just replying tit for tat to reactionary arguments, since you post your opinion, I post mine). -- Natalinasmpf 04:29, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OleMarxco from RevLeft here, in the hood. Well, me thinkesth that a real Communism has a decantralized system of control totally unlike what Soviet and China practised (which I look upon as State Capitalism - more like "Capitalists of the world, unite!") and also needs to go trough a stage of Capitalism first since industrialization must be follow trough the order that Marx wrote. Russia went straight from Feudalism to Communism, obviously that would not work. It insisted to both keep the STATE, a VANGUARD PARTY as some class -over- the proletarians, and were DEFINATELY not Communism. And communism is DEFINATELY not Anarchism, anarcho-Communism is an oxymoron: Anarchy is like "invidual over the group", Communism is collectivized communes working togheter in a perfect balance of industries and equal treatment of the people before the law: One being rewarded with material possesions proportional with your involvation in society. Excess money is flattened out to everyone, and abolished: It is impossible to "buy" oneself out of an encounter with the law by buying tricky lawyers. Therefore, there is no "classes", that is, so unlike the totalarian wannabe-Communisms, when there is a loss of resources, the weakening does not create a "scism" and a "crack" seperating people, one resources tilting to one side of society over the other, creating differences in wealth. It would decrease at society as a whole. All work is optional, but is rewarded by getting everything by rations the sooner the more you CHOOSE to work (Thus removing some people getting more money than they work for society! And no "inheriting"!)- Wherever you want, it is job rotation so you don't have to work somewhere solely to produce more than needed, but where you are needed. That is Communism - a very noble vision, indeed. But...spoiled. Capitalism is STILL not good enough, it is currently now bosses over workers, and the first world over the third world! EXPLOITING. BAH! Long live the hammer and the sickle.-- OleMurder 16:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But ah, don't treat Marx like dogma! Sure he had the right spirit, but not necessarily an entirely correct theory. Just as Newton wasn't totally correct with his idea of gravity (its relative to the space time curve, not just a simplistic force), I feel Marx is only partially correct. Industrialisation isn't needed for a successful society to occur - you set up the society first, THEN you industrialise. Anarcho-communism is hardly an oxymoron: anarchy is the "no individual has more power than another individual", power in the sense of ecopolitical oppurtunity power, not stressing that individuals should do whatever they want and run rampant with anomie. One is rewarded with economic and social resources in a gift economy for involvement in the community and thus being appreciated. Because money isn't used, no hoarding, abuse, poverty cycles and the like occurs. Communism has no higher state to enforce the law: it has principles. PEERS enforce laws. This prevents abuse from ever, ever happening (unlike the compromise of representative democratic socialism which has loopholes for abuse and plutocracy to occur). In an anarcho-communist society, there will probably be the scheme of ostraca, but in a more highly implemented form to say, provide an incentive for working for the food you receive freely. Else, people can just break off giving gifts to you. And since this isn't regulated centrally or by a higher power, there isn't any abuse. A gift economy has no "rations" - gifts are left to discernment. Contribute little, receive little. Contribute a lot, a lot of resources are used to invest in say, farming, technology, which produces more, hence growth, hence you win out by giving more, since the risk is very low. No one executes one another for not working (but except in cases of armed conflict or murder) because freedoms are respected. You cannot "ration" out rewards. It is left to the peers. If you don't work, people are disgusted at you and don't give to you. But the thing is, its based on empathy, rather than rigid laws. When its decentralised, its more flexible and people can sense the circumstances. For example, if you just lost your parents and your gift giving falls 50%, most people are generally going to be sympathetic. In a rigid law based society this probably wouldn't happen too much. Economic flexibility => higher economic growth => harmony et al. => decentralisation means harder to be attacked by enemies, easier to attack enemies. (Anybody who playes Weiqi knows this. Fluid! Formless! And your enemies will not know where to attack.) -- Natalinasmpf 20:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you very much. That is all very helpful and very LOGICAL!!! I don't see how capitalism even survives really. Lenin was partly right in that a communist revolution needs to happen everywhere at once to stay alive. Screw the thing about underdeveloped countries helping developed countries into being communists. Everything that has ever been called communism in human memory has been Capitalistic State Socialism! The reason the USA was so adamant about destroying "communism" was because the term was being missaplied to State Socailism. Communism would be the best thing that could ever happen to a society. But because of the USSR, China, North Korea, and Vietnam communism (which was actually state socialism) has made a bad name for itself. I seriously doubt that nearly anyone who thinks that they know what communism is really does know what it means. When people refer to communism they think "Communism= USSR= Evil!" If anyone knew what communism really was they would all (hopefully) join a movement. When setting up communism there would need to be mild administration at first until everyone got themselves organized. (and the politicians of this world are killed.) And now that i know what communism really is... I luv it!
That's why I hope all of you will help me overthrow the US government by educating the proletariat! God, I hate capitalism. Who here is with me? Email me at "vash_donutfreak@hotmail.com"!-- Terre Lotliby
Aye, you have my support I suppose. There is time for a change, and the hell away from all this Neo-Con bullshit we've gotten weaved into now. Hooray for revolution, and let us not repeat the previous faults! No Vanguard Party! Go Communism!-- OleMurder 22:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Good edit User:Natalinasmpf, you are quite correct. The soviet union wasn't much of a dictatorship after Stalin, and China isn't really a dictatorship either. Sam Spade 10:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think your POV is pretty clear, you wear it on your shirt sleeve and all ;) Sam Spade 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that all previous self-proclaimed "Communist"-countries gets moved instead to "State-Capitalism". That goes for both China and Soviet. At very least these were awkward socialist states with a insane vanguard party gone strait from Feudalism.-- OleMurder 07:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
What it all comes down to is that every experimental or serious attempt at Communism, large and small, has for a variety of reasons, failed. Capitalism is still going strong. When the whole Capitalist juggernaut goes Kablooie, then Communists may have room to criticize it... IF they ever get their thing going. Tom S.
Good edit User:Natalinasmpf, you are quite correct. The soviet union wasn't much of a dictatorship after Stalin, and China isn't really a dictatorship either. Sam Spade 10:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think your POV is pretty clear, you wear it on your shirt sleeve and all ;) Sam Spade 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that all previous self-proclaimed "Communist"-countries gets moved instead to "State-Capitalism". That goes for both China and Soviet. At very least these were awkward socialist states with a insane vanguard party gone strait from Feudalism.-- OleMurder 07:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
What it all comes down to is that every experimental or serious attempt at Communism, large and small, has for a variety of reasons, failed. Capitalism is still going strong. When the whole Capitalist juggernaut goes Kablooie, then Communists may have room to criticize it... IF they ever get their thing going. Tom S.
Is this supposed to be serious criticism? These sentences were some of the worst offenders:
What kind of chimpanzee? Common chimpanzees and bonobos have extremely different behaviours, although both are far more genetically similar to each other than they are to humans. The reference to other primates seems a little too vague.
This is a misrepresentation of the "selfish-gene" theory. The "selfish gene" theory says nothing about how the individual should behave. What it says is that genes evolve in a way that helps to propagate their own survival regardless of the positive, negative, or neutral effects on the individual or group. If cooperation helps all the individuals involved, and thus helps to maximize the distribution of those individuals' genes, then cooperation will evolve (remember even in the selfish gene theory it is still the individual that must survive and propagate). This misrepresentation is so egregious that it begs for a citation.
Much of the criticism section seems to just be the POV of the editors here, is there any sources for this criticism? If not, I might start deleting some of the obvious garbage within the next few days. millerc 8 July 2005 03:29 (UTC)
It should be mentioned, but it certainly doesn't belong in the "future" section. Where should we put it? -- Kennyisinvisible 9 July 2005 16:02 (UTC)
"As a political movement, communism is a more radical branch of the broader socialist movement. The communist movement differentiates itself from other branches of the socialist movement through their wish to completely do away with all aspects of market society under the final stage of the system ..."
Erm, unless I'm sorely mistaken Socialism is a branch of Communism, not the other way around. -- Kennyisinvisible 9 July 2005 16:08 (UTC)
Yes, communism is a branch of the socialist movement. The idea that socialism is a branch of the communist movement comes from the idea that it's a compromise for communist systems, which it isn't. Rather, communism is the most extreme branch of the socialist movement. However, Marxist-Leninism tends tends to go towards populism, while Kroptokin and communist anarchism is the most extreme branch of the libertarian socialist movement. Socialism has other movements (besides social democracy, which is probably what you're thinking of, democratic socialism (which is actually different), a form of bourgeois socialism (to appease), and various other forms as well. -- Natalinasmpf 9 July 2005 18:01 (UTC)
...requires greater rationality or wisdom for the planners, or voters, or workers' council members, than is consistent with the bounded rationality of the species.
-- Christofurio 20:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
It is clarified as a criticism. And of course communism is inherently naive and/or not humanly possible, thats the point! ;) [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly Sam. Thanks for the support. Criticism of an ideological position often cocomes from an "antipathetic ideological position"! What a shock. The NPOV thing to do is to state the various antipathetic positions fairly, and some of our communist friends seem averse to having that done here. -- Christofurio 17:13, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
The criticism is so naive I don't understand how such clever people as you, Sam can fall for it. Please explain how communism requires greater rationality for voters, council members, planners, etc. than, say, for President of the US of A, the SEC commission and Federal Reserve?
Let us forget for a second that the article is about communist ideology, not about its communist state. I understand that much of criticism comes from the thought that communists were planning everything, and this is humanly impossible, no doubt. But this is a naive college-grade understanding of communism, similar to the rumors that communists have everything common: common wives, common shoes and common toothbrushes. Another misunderstanding is that plans were something chiseled in stone. Of course there were not. They were always corrected through the course of the time. Sitll, please, this is not criticism of communism. This is criticism af any centrally planned economy, and hence belongs to the latter article.
Still another point, who told you that in communist state everything was planned for best of all people? That would require inhuman amount of planning for sure. In Soviet Union the planning was for good of the state in the first turn. People were treated as livestock; bare minimality. Mikkalai 19:33, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And one more: about alleged imposibility of total planning. If it were so, modern microchips could not possibly have beed designed and you wouldn't have this wonderful computer to type your naive arguments in. Ever heard about hierarchical approach to compex tasks? Mikkalai 19:44, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As opposed to those brilliant Communist theorists (whose favored states only collapsed due to imperialist pressure) Trey Stone 03:30, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Communist in political structure, reformist in economic structure. Trey Stone 04:25, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Communism#Human_nature. This ridiculous false dicotomy between "fear of the whip" and "common benevolence" (what the heck is that?) as forms of incentives is insane. Please look up reinforcement, Operant conditioning, and economics. Fear of punishment is not a major factor in the economies of the west (outside of prison, perhaps), and I think its easier to describe say.. Pol Pots communism as having been a slavery-based economy than even the pre-civil war united states south (even ancient egypt or feudalism had alot more to the economy than fear as an incentive, and not only financialy). [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To such objections, communists reply that human nature is misrepresented by capitalists. For example, under slavery, slave owners said blacks were lazy and stupid and that whippings were necessary for productivity. Thus, communists say under what they consider capitalist wage slavery, that the same type of arguments are made as an excuse for the capitalists to expropriate surplus value from workers. This fails to take into account the role of reinforcers in Behavioral psychology, and confuses punishing reinforcers (whippings) with positive reinforcers ( money).
?how is human psychology a straw man? And how does communism reward superior performance? Isn't that in contridiction to "to each according to his need"? [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your reply is nonsensical. We live in a state of abundance because we have a powerful economic base, derived from capitalism. I am in Germany, and while the country on the whole is well off, the eastern half had (and still has) a serious disadvantage due to having been ruined by communism. And if Marxism supplies "operant conditioning" of "fame" instead of cash rewards, why were even ballerina's and Olympic athletes (positions rewarded largely by fame in the west) especially well paid in communism, while "collective" farm laborers were periodically starved to death w artificial famines regardless of how hard they worked, often on the very land which had been stolen from them by the "egalitarianism" of communism. I think that's the sort of fame they would have preferred to do without, and has little to do with either business psychology or operant conditioning. 10 pounds of propaganda doesn't buy you one pound of bread. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
luke} A lot of people think that human nature is inherantly greedy and that is the main arguement that communism can't work. i disagree, human nature can change. i refuse to believe that the British binge drinking or the US gun crime cultures are there forever and cannot change. Lenin turned the entire russian anti-semitic attitudes around in a few short revolutionary years, unfortunately Stalin reverted to it back.
The basic criticism that it would be impossible to plan a communist society is fine. Someone wants it here, and it belongs here.
Nonetheless, it is replete with a total lack of understanding of Marxism, communism and so forth. These critics of communism know next-to-nothing about Marxism or communism, as I have stated before.
The second and third sentences are: "Theoretically, in a market system, scarce skills and resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands. Without an efficient market system, prices can send the wrong signals to consumers and planners, resulting in decisions that don't reflect the choices they would make if they knew the actual costs and competing demands for those resources."
First of all the idea that "scarce...resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands" pertains to the capitalist system, not the "market" system. If one looks at the life of a commodity as production -> exchange -> consumption, how is the exchange/market system of the USSR different than the US? A worker goes into a store and exchanges rubles (or dollars) for a loaf of bread. They are both market systems (of course, it should go without saying that the USSR socialist system would be different than a communist system).
Also, that this is how capitalist systems works is just of one various competing theories. Of course, it is the one capitalists within the capitalists system prefer (although not necessarily workers). The early bourgeois economists, Adam Smith, David Ricardo etc. certainly did not believe this, and in fact shared Marx's view that value came from labor, that prices were determined by labor time and so forth. In fact, this was the accepted view when Marx began his studies and Marx agreed with it. There really was no argument against this until Hermann Heinrich Gossen published The Development of the Laws of Exchange among Men and of the Consequent Rules of Human Action, the ideas of which were fleshed out by the subjective theory of value school (marginalists). In fact, Marxism (and all of classical economics prior to HH Gossen and friends) is counterposed to this new theory of value.
Anyhow, that's just the second and third sentence. As I said, the basic ideas of this section are fine, the criticism that communism is not plannable, but STV (marginalists) ideas are just that - ideas, theories, not fact and should be marked as such. So I will be rewriting this section. Ruy Lopez 09:55, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, the first paragraph is fairly straightforward, but the next three paragraphs having to do with the skyscraper are vague and make little sense. It is about how in capitalism, a skyscraper can be planned better than in communism. There are three paragraphs leading up to an argument and then - no argument. The last paragraph is leading up to this non-existent argument: "Critics contend that the implementation of communism in the sense described above would involve supplanting precisely these market and contract conditions that make planning possible. It would be planning instead of haggling, rather than planning within the context of haggling. That is what they contend is not practicable." OK, we have an example of a skyscraper, a description of how capitalists build a skyscraper and then a simple assertion that STVers don't think communists could build a skyscraper. The reason why is not given.
I know Amish people get together and do barn-raisings in basically a communist manner - each gives according to ability and each gets according to need. Of course, a skyscraper is more complex than a barn, but if one looks back 75 years, the tallest "skyscraper" in the world was less than 800 feet high, and most of what has enabled taller buildings to be built have been advances in engineering, and the factors leading to one wanting to go to the trouble of building such a large building. Beyond the architect, building a skyscraper is not that complex - you build a floor, then build another floor, and just keep going up. Nonetheless, all of this is more of an opinion than a reason. I see no argument made here. Ruy Lopez 10:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Suppose, for purposes of comparison, we were writing a passage about criticisms of Darwinism. I might write, "There are defenders of the views of Larmark, who believe that acquired characteristics can be inherited." Would it be fair for you to change that to this? "There are, though Darwinians disagree, defenders of the view of Larmark, with whom Darwinians disagree, who believe although Darwinians disagree that acquired characteristics can be inherited, although Darwinians disagree." Does that sound NPOV? AT what point are such continued interruptions of a point simply to state and restate and re-restate the mere fact of disagreement an unfair undermining of an effort to make a point that ought to be made? Frankly, I believe there is such a point and you have crossed it. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
time congealed in a commodity.
You don't "understand" it if you need to characterize it as "magical". The market price of something is the price at whichit is being exchanged or exchangeable. You are making a pointless distinction. You seem to object to the significance of exchange prices on the grounds that they involve only a "binary decision" along the lines accept/reject. But ... so what? Digital computers work on the basis of binary on/off switches. Enough binary choices and one has a calculation -- and a result that carries information. What is "magical" about this? That you don't like it, I accept. But you make negative characterizations about its being "magic" and "mysticism" which turns out to be just new ways of restating the fact that you don't want to acknowledge the information-carrying significance of prices. Exchanged prices, of course. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
The USSR had markets too, where do you think workers went to buy bread, shirts and such things? The local market.
Anyhow, as I said before, these are two different theories. At a certain point one reaches diminishing returns discussing this, we're both simply restating over and over the differences between the LTV and STV theories. Ruy Lopez 13:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that true? I thought atheism was a common denominator. All this talk about early christian / amish / shaker communism-like activities makes my head spin. What's the deal? I thought religion was the opiate of the masses and we were to find our solace in praying to Marx or some such ;) Maybe Juche?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:42, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Communism and communist experiments existed before Marx and, in fact, before Marx most experiments with communism were of a religious nature, particularly among Christians. AndyL 12:46, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All successful communist societies have had a religious basis. They have been of moderate size, from a few hundred to a few thousand members. Their religious basis has varied from radical interpretations of Christianity such as Oneida Community to quite fundamentalist and conservative such as the Shakers of Ann Lee, many were based on German pietism. These communities were very prosperous and were the envy of their less-favored neighbors [16]. Secular efforts to imitate them such as New Harmony were unsuccessful. Fred Bauder 14:17, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Of course communism doesn't require atheism. Intrigue 00:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All Communist states (perhaps there are a few exceptions) have been atheist, yes. Recall Marx describing religion as a pointless distraction from "revolution." J. Parker Stone 01:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Early communism may not have required atheism but modern theories, and certainly Marxism, do. While everyone knows Marx's "Reiligion is the opiate of the masses" quote (I'd love to hear what he'd think of TV today), the real opposition to religion comes from its class nature. All communists strive to create a classless society and the clergy have traditionally maintained their own customs, dress codes, ideals and organisations. They are arguably the most distinct of all classes GreatGodOm 29 June 2005 13:19 (UTC)
The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand. If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off. The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness. But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would. This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo. Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making the other choices or no exchange at all. Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware. When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it. Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses. Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value. Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.-- Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
??? I don't know where to start with this! As a piece of 'market-advocacy' it is an interesting perspective, but it is not an NPOV treatment of the subject. Intrigue 15:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's an interesting point of view, but it's far from fact. Intrigue 03:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's because I am a PHP script. It's fine to quote this as a theory, and reference who thinks it, it is just that presenting it as uncontested fact is not ok. Beep beep. Intrigue 20:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, we do reference who proposes these theories, and they are a lot easier to agree on than theories about 'levels of individual satisfaction'. I certainly don't think that this theory has 90% acceptance among any reasonable group of people. I'm disturbed by your reluctance to reference it if it really is that mainstream, I'm certainly not asking for every proponent, just one or two notable ones. Intrigue 02:08, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then you should have no problems attributing this theory to some published authors. Intrigue 19:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then we're in agreement - the theory will be referenced in the article as one advanced by these people (among others)? Intrigue 18:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, this is a theory, and should not be presented as fact, but as a theory advanced by some (perhaps many) people. I'm baffled as to why you would not want to reference this as the opinion of some notable politcal theorists. We don't need to argue about whether it is right or wrong, just say who claims it. Intrigue 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Who cares? Read some more and you can dispel your own myths and misconceptions, if you wanna stop scaring yourself over something that isn't real.-- Che y Marijuana 22:02, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Socialism involves public ownership of the means of production and private ownership of everything else, while communism abolishes private ownership altogether European socialdemocracy, wich can be considered socialism even if of a moderate kind, does not involves public ownership of the means of production. And I don't think that there has been even one communist regime that has completely abolited private ownership, nor Karl Marx ever proposed to do that. Before the october revolution I think that the world communist was just a synonim of revolutionary socialist. After that it was used to refer to those socialists that had embrassed Lenin's ideas and that looked at the October Revolution as their political source of inspiration. juliet.p from Italy
This is almost a cartoonishly bad argument. Summarizing and paraphrasing just a bit, we're now saying, "some of communism's critics complainthat revolutions are bloody. To this communists reply: if the establishment didn't resist the revolution, it could all be done quickly and peacefully."
Yes, and if Haile Selassie had gone along, Mussolini's takeover of his country would have been bloodless, too. Does anybody defend the general principle that resistance as such is evil because it forces aggressors to get violent?
I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
True, it is a complicated phenomenon, and it would be great if someone could sufficiently articulate its causes. I disagree with the reading that it involves Deng conceding to capitalism's superiority; I interpret it it as a change of views - it wouldn't be any more true to say that Mussolini by changing his opinions conceded to the superiority of fascism. Nevertheless, I will take out the quote, it'd still be nice if knowledgeable persons/people could talk more about the development of Maoist economics in China. Lacrimosus 23:32, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please no revert war, I've even included a Washington Times source for you. It's a perfectly apt and reasonable quote. 172, please leave your agenda behind. Libertas
The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I made your point again in a clear, specific way. I added that the Soviet Union and China after Stalin and Mao, respectively, continued to be single party regimes that executed political opponents of the regime, though on a far smaller scale. 172 07:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
"He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism" Then, if Stalin did it, what is it part of? BTW, Trotsky said there was no such thing as "Trotskyism" and that the term was invented by Stalinists. Trotsky preferred the term "Bolshevik-Leninism". AndyL 17:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, you smell the truth. Bah, what does that matter if it were all or some? The fact that Stalin did it, is still there. And, further up, there is no Stalinism and there is no Trotskyism. It's just invidual interpretions of how Communism should be, made of them...although I prefer the latter. However; The article is neutral and is just telling history how it happened as neutrally as possible. Although I agree and changed it from "all" to "most".-- OleMurder 06:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is interesting that Trotsky would want the term "Bolshevik-Leninism" when he spent most of his life attacking the Bolsheviks and Lenin, and only joined the Bolsheviks in July of 1917 (three months before the revolution) and still spent most of his time attacking Lenin. The solution, IMO, is to not use the term "Stalinism" when writing articles about those who upheld Stalin, or to reference it in such way as to clarify the meaning. Same should be done for Trotskyites if they feel that the term "Troskyism" is incorrect. BTW, Stalin hardly crushed all dissedents. IMO, he was a little too friendly and a good purging before his death might have prevented revisonism and the eventual collapse of the USSR, and we would have a lot more hope for the future today. -- Mista-X 16:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"there is no better Bolshevik" Lenin on Trotsky.
Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, got your point. I won't put it back. However, what about the bureaucracy part? That critique seems rather relevant to me - after all it does not only apply to centrally planned states, but to any organization that has become too big. Luis rib 22:07, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror!
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I tried my best to rework the article, it needs ALOT of work. But at least now it mentions gift economies a few times.-- Che y Marijuana 03:21, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also, the other concern is its elaboration of the idea of the gift economy's part in the movement in both the critique, and the response against it, and especially in the Stalinism vs Trotskyism area. -- Natalinasmpf 20:39, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The links which Ultramarine wants to insert are problematic for a number of reasons. Leaving aside the reliability of the sites in question for the time being, the intro to this article states that it is primarily about the theory of communism. It also states that For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state. This seems more than reasonable as a way of organising discussion of such an enormous topic. And since these links all discuss the abuses of Communist-Party regimes, they don't belong here. If we have all that stuff on the crimes of Communist regimes, then what is to stop someone adding links applauding Stalin's success in raising industrial production in the USSR etc. etc etc. It is off-topic. Why should they be here? Mattley 23:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As for the Nazism article, there is a small paragraph on it, but it makes no sense to drag it all into here. If we can't do it justice on this page, as it is a big page, it should be placed almost entirely on the other page.-- Che y Marijuana 03:06, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
My last edit removed some blantant POV from the section on "Communist states." 'Executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' have taken place in capitalist societies, but what would happen if one were to put the following in the article on capitalism:
I hope that no one will attempt to put the above in the article on capitalism. That would be absurd-- just as absurd as allowing the content that I'd removed from the article to stay up... If people are interested in detailing a critique of Communist ideology based on the actions of Communist regimes, they will have to cite the research of authortative sources laying out a relationship between Communist ideology and the actions of political authorities in cases such as Stalinist Russia, Communist China, et. al. JMaxwell 21:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Finally, some claim that wars, hunger and lack of elementary medical care, causing the deaths of millions, are the results of capitalist relations of production, making capitalism the single most violent socio-economic system in history. This view, however, is widely criticised, since most wars, famines or epidemics happened in countries that were not really capitalist.
This discussion has already taken place in other talk pages, and there's no need to repeat it here. People looking for information on communism SHOULD find some reference to what happened in countries that officially claimed to be communist. The facts are not in dispute, in any case (there's just some argument on the precise number of deaths, etc.). Your comparison with capitalism is spurious, since capitalism is not as wide-spread as you claim. Certainly not all non-communist states are capitalist. Indeed, most African countries were not capitalist, and neither was Latin America (with the possible exception of Chile). Luis rib 23:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your claim that capitalism is associated with war is a complete fallacy. I am not making this claim. My point is that all 'executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' occurred throughout history in societies where private ownership of the means of production dominated economic output. However, whether or not there was a relationship to capitalism and these occurrences is not for Wikipedia to decide, due to the NPOV policy; instead, this is a matter to be taken up in social science academic journals. In the same vein, Wikipedia cannot assert a relationship between every occurrence under Communist regimes and Communist ideology... If you want to cite authoritative source making this claim, feel free to do so. At the same time, this claim must be balanced with other POVs. JMaxwell 01:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
From Communist states:
Yawn. We're all familiar with Rummel, Conquest, Pipes, and the bulk of these authors. Copying and pasting this list, however, is not a license to write a biased diatribe blaming everything occurring under Communist regimes on Communism independent of other factors, such as the social problems inherited from the old regimes... Incidentally, if a Marxist decided to apply your reasoning to the capitalism article, he could just as easily generate a list of Marxist academics who relate capitalism to the great power rivalries leading up to the First World War, the Second World War, and the rise of fascism, and then in turn proceed to blame all the horrors and atrocities of the interwar era on capitalism. JMaxwell 04:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have kept this on my watchlist, although I had taken a vacation from it for various reasons. The article seems somewhat improved; there is at least brief mention of the horrendous consequences of the Communist adventure. This introduction:
":This article is about communism as a form of society built around a gift economy, as an ideology advocating that form of society, and as a popular movement. For issues regarding the organization of the communist movement, see the Communist party article. For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state.
represents, however, an attempt to distance the article from the realities of practical communism as we have known it in our lifetime and especially from the realities of being involved in the movement.
One note: This article is not about capitalism and the problems capitalism has. That material needs to go in the article, capitalism. Yet, the communist movement cannot be considered apart from capitalism as much of its energy comes from the consequences of capitalist organization of the economy. Fred Bauder 14:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
No, but neither is the capitalist article going to be mainly about the problems it has. The communism article is good for criticising capitalism from the perspective of a communist economic system. And cannot considered apart? You're basically saying that the immune system really shouldn't be considered apart from viruses, bacteria and cancer cells because much of the "energy" and evolutionary drive to develop an immune system comes from the consequences of pathogen organisation in the body? -- Natalinasmpf 16:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whether we have an article utopian communism or not, that is where this sort of stuff belongs: "...communism itself is stateless in theory and thus cannot be related to the actions of 20th century states." Essentially this is propaganda and is, in fact, a violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. This line served its purpose for bait and switch, but there was no sign any actual Communist movement took it seriously. Our article can include such theories but the bulk of it needs to refer to ideologies which existed or events which occured. Fred Bauder 16:04, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Concerning gift economy: how is it supposed to work on a national scale? If I want a pineapple, how will I get it in a gift economy? Do I have to go to eBay to see who is willing to give away a pineapple? Also, how does a gift economy encourage people to work and to give their best? They are not sure anyone will give them anything afterwards... Concerning capitalism and greed: the idea is that in "perfect capitalism" those that fall to the bottom work less than those that rise to the top. But "perfect capitalism" would assume that everyone has the same opportunities from the start - which is clearly not the case. Indeed, poverty itself is a reason why many people have too few alternatives. That's why any moderate capitalist will argue that the state should help the poor by providing help for better education and access to free (or at least cheap) medical services. In utopian perfect capitalism, those aids would not be necessary since no-one would be disadvantaged from the start (I know, it's a circular argument - that's why it is an utopy). Since utopias don't exist, some level of state intervention is necessary - the question is then to find the right level. BTW, getting back to Ayn Rand, that's why I said she's an extremist - she's arguing for something that cannot exist in this world. Luis rib 23:07, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Natalinasmpf, but your argument is strange. If communism is an utopia, it means it will never be possible to establish it. Thus, it is impossible to judge its merits, and therefore to say if it's good or not. In a sense, Communism would be like the Garden of Eden - another quasi-religious myth. The problem with utopias is that you cannot criticise them and not falsify them. That exactly why utopias are not scientifically valid. Sure, you can argue that communism could be so much better, but you have no means to either prove it or disprove it. I could also argue that Communism is very bad, but again would have no means to prove it. Therefore, if we confine communism to its uropian version, we should rewrite the whole article and compare it to other such utopias - like the Garden of Eden. BTW your view of capitalism is clearly totally biased, but you are right in one point: capitalism is not an utopia, it's not an ideology. That's why it is not perfect - nothing is - but at least it tries to improve things (and it certainly improved things if you compare it to feudalism or tribal economies). Seeking refuge in an utopia may be nice, but it's just a way to avoid taking difficult decisions. Luis rib 10:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No means to disprove or prove it? Communism is a pre-thought economic theory, capitalism is more of labelling of a pre-existing formula, ie. chaos theory in economics. Communism is an economic theory and pre-conceived system,, and therefore the article shoud concern it as such. Capitalism is also an economic system, and should be perceived as such. You can't demand that only the material on real-life communism be implemented, because you are forgetting that communism doesn't need to be an economic system of a nation to count as a valid theory... free software, kibbutzes, anyone? The Garden of Eden is not an ideology based on sociopolitical science.
Avoid taking difficult decisions? Are you kidding me? Oh well, continue in your defeatist attitude, but the etymylogy still remains. Communism is an economic theory, which has real life implementations, capitalism follows something similar. As long as capital (assigning an absolute value to materials to invest in) is used, its capitalism. As long as there is a commune-based society, with the correct conditions (if someone compromises, it is no longer communism), that is communism. Communism just happens to apply in more narrow situations. -- Natalinasmpf 19:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I know this will anger many people here, but shouldn't there be a section comparing Communism to other ideologies which are viewed as totalitarian? Or, if not here, maybe on Communist state? After all, it is a criticism that is often made. Also, it appears on Fascism, so at least there should be a link to that page. Waiting for your comments... Luis rib 11:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What I don't understand is the following: you (or somebody else) said that you couldn't take the USSR or China or Cambodia as an example of a communist economy because they had tried to implement it in countries that were not truly capitalist yet - and that's why it failed economically (let's forget about the human rights issues for a sec). Yet wouldn't that imply that if Communists want to succeed, they should support Capitalism in every way they can since they know that the more the society becomes capitalist, the sooner capitalism will crumble under its own contradictions and the sooner communism will emerge? Luis rib 10:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, in response to Luis' original argument, you're basically asking, shouldn't the immune system support viruses and bacteria and pathogens in every way because the they do so, the sooner the evolutionary drive to develop a better immune system emerges? The idea is to fight the pathogens, and so is the same thing for communism. -- Natalinasmpf 02:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). -- Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).
"The commies" That is just plain ignorant and babyish. Just because you may be a patriot of democracy or some such sh!t does not mean that you are right. As a matter of fact it seems that the USA tries to be totalitarian. They invade countries whose form of government they disagree with. Too bad that it was impossible for them to invade the USSR for all that time.
...requires greater rationality or wisdom for the planners, or voters, or workers' council members, than is consistent with the bounded rationality of the species.
-- Christofurio 20:11, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)
It is clarified as a criticism. And of course communism is inherently naive and/or not humanly possible, thats the point! ;) [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Exactly Sam. Thanks for the support. Criticism of an ideological position often cocomes from an "antipathetic ideological position"! What a shock. The NPOV thing to do is to state the various antipathetic positions fairly, and some of our communist friends seem averse to having that done here. -- Christofurio 17:13, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)
The criticism is so naive I don't understand how such clever people as you, Sam can fall for it. Please explain how communism requires greater rationality for voters, council members, planners, etc. than, say, for President of the US of A, the SEC commission and Federal Reserve?
Let us forget for a second that the article is about communist ideology, not about its communist state. I understand that much of criticism comes from the thought that communists were planning everything, and this is humanly impossible, no doubt. But this is a naive college-grade understanding of communism, similar to the rumors that communists have everything common: common wives, common shoes and common toothbrushes. Another misunderstanding is that plans were something chiseled in stone. Of course there were not. They were always corrected through the course of the time. Sitll, please, this is not criticism of communism. This is criticism af any centrally planned economy, and hence belongs to the latter article.
Still another point, who told you that in communist state everything was planned for best of all people? That would require inhuman amount of planning for sure. In Soviet Union the planning was for good of the state in the first turn. People were treated as livestock; bare minimality. Mikkalai 19:33, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And one more: about alleged imposibility of total planning. If it were so, modern microchips could not possibly have beed designed and you wouldn't have this wonderful computer to type your naive arguments in. Ever heard about hierarchical approach to compex tasks? Mikkalai 19:44, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As opposed to those brilliant Communist theorists (whose favored states only collapsed due to imperialist pressure) Trey Stone 03:30, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Communist in political structure, reformist in economic structure. Trey Stone 04:25, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Communism#Human_nature. This ridiculous false dicotomy between "fear of the whip" and "common benevolence" (what the heck is that?) as forms of incentives is insane. Please look up reinforcement, Operant conditioning, and economics. Fear of punishment is not a major factor in the economies of the west (outside of prison, perhaps), and I think its easier to describe say.. Pol Pots communism as having been a slavery-based economy than even the pre-civil war united states south (even ancient egypt or feudalism had alot more to the economy than fear as an incentive, and not only financialy). [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 08:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
To such objections, communists reply that human nature is misrepresented by capitalists. For example, under slavery, slave owners said blacks were lazy and stupid and that whippings were necessary for productivity. Thus, communists say under what they consider capitalist wage slavery, that the same type of arguments are made as an excuse for the capitalists to expropriate surplus value from workers. This fails to take into account the role of reinforcers in Behavioral psychology, and confuses punishing reinforcers (whippings) with positive reinforcers ( money).
?how is human psychology a straw man? And how does communism reward superior performance? Isn't that in contridiction to "to each according to his need"? [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:58, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your reply is nonsensical. We live in a state of abundance because we have a powerful economic base, derived from capitalism. I am in Germany, and while the country on the whole is well off, the eastern half had (and still has) a serious disadvantage due to having been ruined by communism. And if Marxism supplies "operant conditioning" of "fame" instead of cash rewards, why were even ballerina's and Olympic athletes (positions rewarded largely by fame in the west) especially well paid in communism, while "collective" farm laborers were periodically starved to death w artificial famines regardless of how hard they worked, often on the very land which had been stolen from them by the "egalitarianism" of communism. I think that's the sort of fame they would have preferred to do without, and has little to do with either business psychology or operant conditioning. 10 pounds of propaganda doesn't buy you one pound of bread. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
luke} A lot of people think that human nature is inherantly greedy and that is the main arguement that communism can't work. i disagree, human nature can change. i refuse to believe that the British binge drinking or the US gun crime cultures are there forever and cannot change. Lenin turned the entire russian anti-semitic attitudes around in a few short revolutionary years, unfortunately Stalin reverted to it back.
The basic criticism that it would be impossible to plan a communist society is fine. Someone wants it here, and it belongs here.
Nonetheless, it is replete with a total lack of understanding of Marxism, communism and so forth. These critics of communism know next-to-nothing about Marxism or communism, as I have stated before.
The second and third sentences are: "Theoretically, in a market system, scarce skills and resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands. Without an efficient market system, prices can send the wrong signals to consumers and planners, resulting in decisions that don't reflect the choices they would make if they knew the actual costs and competing demands for those resources."
First of all the idea that "scarce...resources are rationed by prices that reflect relative scarcity of the resources and competing demands" pertains to the capitalist system, not the "market" system. If one looks at the life of a commodity as production -> exchange -> consumption, how is the exchange/market system of the USSR different than the US? A worker goes into a store and exchanges rubles (or dollars) for a loaf of bread. They are both market systems (of course, it should go without saying that the USSR socialist system would be different than a communist system).
Also, that this is how capitalist systems works is just of one various competing theories. Of course, it is the one capitalists within the capitalists system prefer (although not necessarily workers). The early bourgeois economists, Adam Smith, David Ricardo etc. certainly did not believe this, and in fact shared Marx's view that value came from labor, that prices were determined by labor time and so forth. In fact, this was the accepted view when Marx began his studies and Marx agreed with it. There really was no argument against this until Hermann Heinrich Gossen published The Development of the Laws of Exchange among Men and of the Consequent Rules of Human Action, the ideas of which were fleshed out by the subjective theory of value school (marginalists). In fact, Marxism (and all of classical economics prior to HH Gossen and friends) is counterposed to this new theory of value.
Anyhow, that's just the second and third sentence. As I said, the basic ideas of this section are fine, the criticism that communism is not plannable, but STV (marginalists) ideas are just that - ideas, theories, not fact and should be marked as such. So I will be rewriting this section. Ruy Lopez 09:55, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Also, the first paragraph is fairly straightforward, but the next three paragraphs having to do with the skyscraper are vague and make little sense. It is about how in capitalism, a skyscraper can be planned better than in communism. There are three paragraphs leading up to an argument and then - no argument. The last paragraph is leading up to this non-existent argument: "Critics contend that the implementation of communism in the sense described above would involve supplanting precisely these market and contract conditions that make planning possible. It would be planning instead of haggling, rather than planning within the context of haggling. That is what they contend is not practicable." OK, we have an example of a skyscraper, a description of how capitalists build a skyscraper and then a simple assertion that STVers don't think communists could build a skyscraper. The reason why is not given.
I know Amish people get together and do barn-raisings in basically a communist manner - each gives according to ability and each gets according to need. Of course, a skyscraper is more complex than a barn, but if one looks back 75 years, the tallest "skyscraper" in the world was less than 800 feet high, and most of what has enabled taller buildings to be built have been advances in engineering, and the factors leading to one wanting to go to the trouble of building such a large building. Beyond the architect, building a skyscraper is not that complex - you build a floor, then build another floor, and just keep going up. Nonetheless, all of this is more of an opinion than a reason. I see no argument made here. Ruy Lopez 10:38, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Suppose, for purposes of comparison, we were writing a passage about criticisms of Darwinism. I might write, "There are defenders of the views of Larmark, who believe that acquired characteristics can be inherited." Would it be fair for you to change that to this? "There are, though Darwinians disagree, defenders of the view of Larmark, with whom Darwinians disagree, who believe although Darwinians disagree that acquired characteristics can be inherited, although Darwinians disagree." Does that sound NPOV? AT what point are such continued interruptions of a point simply to state and restate and re-restate the mere fact of disagreement an unfair undermining of an effort to make a point that ought to be made? Frankly, I believe there is such a point and you have crossed it. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
time congealed in a commodity.
You don't "understand" it if you need to characterize it as "magical". The market price of something is the price at whichit is being exchanged or exchangeable. You are making a pointless distinction. You seem to object to the significance of exchange prices on the grounds that they involve only a "binary decision" along the lines accept/reject. But ... so what? Digital computers work on the basis of binary on/off switches. Enough binary choices and one has a calculation -- and a result that carries information. What is "magical" about this? That you don't like it, I accept. But you make negative characterizations about its being "magic" and "mysticism" which turns out to be just new ways of restating the fact that you don't want to acknowledge the information-carrying significance of prices. Exchanged prices, of course. -- Christofurio 19:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
The USSR had markets too, where do you think workers went to buy bread, shirts and such things? The local market.
Anyhow, as I said before, these are two different theories. At a certain point one reaches diminishing returns discussing this, we're both simply restating over and over the differences between the LTV and STV theories. Ruy Lopez 13:03, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Isn't that true? I thought atheism was a common denominator. All this talk about early christian / amish / shaker communism-like activities makes my head spin. What's the deal? I thought religion was the opiate of the masses and we were to find our solace in praying to Marx or some such ;) Maybe Juche?
[[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 10:42, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Communism and communist experiments existed before Marx and, in fact, before Marx most experiments with communism were of a religious nature, particularly among Christians. AndyL 12:46, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All successful communist societies have had a religious basis. They have been of moderate size, from a few hundred to a few thousand members. Their religious basis has varied from radical interpretations of Christianity such as Oneida Community to quite fundamentalist and conservative such as the Shakers of Ann Lee, many were based on German pietism. These communities were very prosperous and were the envy of their less-favored neighbors [23]. Secular efforts to imitate them such as New Harmony were unsuccessful. Fred Bauder 14:17, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Of course communism doesn't require atheism. Intrigue 00:34, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
All Communist states (perhaps there are a few exceptions) have been atheist, yes. Recall Marx describing religion as a pointless distraction from "revolution." J. Parker Stone 01:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Early communism may not have required atheism but modern theories, and certainly Marxism, do. While everyone knows Marx's "Reiligion is the opiate of the masses" quote (I'd love to hear what he'd think of TV today), the real opposition to religion comes from its class nature. All communists strive to create a classless society and the clergy have traditionally maintained their own customs, dress codes, ideals and organisations. They are arguably the most distinct of all classes GreatGodOm 29 June 2005 13:19 (UTC)
The barometer is exchanges at prices that reflect supply and demand. If a person chooses to exchange x which he has for y in the market place, it is assumed in economics that he considers himself better off. The assumption may not be valid if the person is stupid or lacks information about the goods being exchanged and needs big brother to make the decisons for him to achieve happiness. But the core of economics gives the individual a little credit for having better information about his own preferences and what would satify him than others making the decison for him would. This is the reason both sides in an exchange usually say "thank you", otherwise they would be making the exchange, since if the goods were of equal value to each they would not make the exhange since the transaction cost would make them better off with their status quo. Furthermore, if a person has a medium of exchange like money and the market has many goods which he could exchange it for, his purchase of x instead of y or z, displays his preference and satisfies him more than making the other choices or no exchange at all. Perhaps you don't accept this economic assumption, it depends on whether you give individuals a little credit for being able to autonomously make their own decisions.
In a communist mass society, where prices are set by the labor theory of value, people will respond the same way to price signals, if those signals don't also reflect the rarity of materials or the demand of them for higher uses for example, the fact that silver's value should reflect its usefulness in electronics and photography, what is to prevent it from all being used up for silverware. When prices do reflect demand, silver will go to where it will produce the most economic value, because uses that produce more value will be able to bid more for it. Note that a market system, also values less utilitarian things, such as silverware, but those who value it, had to value it more than others, since they had to value it enough to bid it away from other uses. Perhaps a person is stupid for valuing a silver spoon more than a radio, or film, but that is the subjective nature of value. Markets and prices tend to allocate things to achieve greater overall satisfaction and efficiency, at least where, information costs, transaction costs and externalities are low.-- Silverback 00:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
??? I don't know where to start with this! As a piece of 'market-advocacy' it is an interesting perspective, but it is not an NPOV treatment of the subject. Intrigue 15:23, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's an interesting point of view, but it's far from fact. Intrigue 03:39, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
That's because I am a PHP script. It's fine to quote this as a theory, and reference who thinks it, it is just that presenting it as uncontested fact is not ok. Beep beep. Intrigue 20:02, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Well, we do reference who proposes these theories, and they are a lot easier to agree on than theories about 'levels of individual satisfaction'. I certainly don't think that this theory has 90% acceptance among any reasonable group of people. I'm disturbed by your reluctance to reference it if it really is that mainstream, I'm certainly not asking for every proponent, just one or two notable ones. Intrigue 02:08, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then you should have no problems attributing this theory to some published authors. Intrigue 19:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Then we're in agreement - the theory will be referenced in the article as one advanced by these people (among others)? Intrigue 18:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
As I said, this is a theory, and should not be presented as fact, but as a theory advanced by some (perhaps many) people. I'm baffled as to why you would not want to reference this as the opinion of some notable politcal theorists. We don't need to argue about whether it is right or wrong, just say who claims it. Intrigue 20:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While what is referred to here on the wiki as communism isn't what I think of when I hear the word (I think of State Communism, i.e. pol pot & stalin), it does seem to be an important concept. This "communalism" is actually very agreeable to me as a spiritual person, I believe strongly in altruism. Unfortunately, these altruistic sociological theories only seem to work as far as the commune, and even then only when there is a solid religious foundation, and often a charismatic leader as well. Frankly, I think the people who desire to attempt Anarcho-Communism on a grand scale, or without a focus on God, have little comprehension of economics, psychology, sociology, or... history. They forget that the shiny idealism they believe so strongly in was once shared by those radicals who led to Stalin, Pol Pot, and every form of state communism. They forget that not everyone is altruistic, and indeed, that many are violent conquerors, or simply minor parasites, looking to revel in excess at the disadvantage of others. Every time I hear someone like Noam Chomsky speak, my mind wanders to visions of Black shirts beating political opponents and forcing them to drink castor oil, Snowball being chased from the farm by dogs, and Trotsky getting stabbed with an ice pick. No matter how pretty the utopia you envision, reality will always eventually step in. [[User:Sam Spade| Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 13:21, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Who cares? Read some more and you can dispel your own myths and misconceptions, if you wanna stop scaring yourself over something that isn't real.-- Che y Marijuana 22:02, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Socialism involves public ownership of the means of production and private ownership of everything else, while communism abolishes private ownership altogether European socialdemocracy, wich can be considered socialism even if of a moderate kind, does not involves public ownership of the means of production. And I don't think that there has been even one communist regime that has completely abolited private ownership, nor Karl Marx ever proposed to do that. Before the october revolution I think that the world communist was just a synonim of revolutionary socialist. After that it was used to refer to those socialists that had embrassed Lenin's ideas and that looked at the October Revolution as their political source of inspiration. juliet.p from Italy
This is almost a cartoonishly bad argument. Summarizing and paraphrasing just a bit, we're now saying, "some of communism's critics complainthat revolutions are bloody. To this communists reply: if the establishment didn't resist the revolution, it could all be done quickly and peacefully."
Yes, and if Haile Selassie had gone along, Mussolini's takeover of his country would have been bloodless, too. Does anybody defend the general principle that resistance as such is evil because it forces aggressors to get violent?
I don't understand how the Deng quote needs contextualising, or how it is POV. We are reporting the judgement of many that China has made significantly pro-capitalist economic reforms; the quote is a support of this view. Don't interpret this as a challenge; I'm just genuinely confused, and don't understand the need for reversion. In the interests of accuracy, isn't the best approach to attempt to provide necessary contextualisation? Lacrimosus 07:47, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
True, it is a complicated phenomenon, and it would be great if someone could sufficiently articulate its causes. I disagree with the reading that it involves Deng conceding to capitalism's superiority; I interpret it it as a change of views - it wouldn't be any more true to say that Mussolini by changing his opinions conceded to the superiority of fascism. Nevertheless, I will take out the quote, it'd still be nice if knowledgeable persons/people could talk more about the development of Maoist economics in China. Lacrimosus 23:32, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Please no revert war, I've even included a Washington Times source for you. It's a perfectly apt and reasonable quote. 172, please leave your agenda behind. Libertas
The article itself seems to have become much better of late in respect of not identifying communism exclusively with Leninism and the former USSR, though there is some way to go in this respect. The use of the hammer and sickle logo and its description as 'the international symbol of communism' is an example. It wouldn't be regarded as such by left communists, council communists, most Trotskyites, Anarcho-communists and other advocates of a communist society (granted it would often depend on how far you were from 1917 when you asked them). The appearance of the hammer and sickle at the top of the banner advertising the communism series of articles is likewise inappropriate, given that that series contains many articles on schools of thought that were extremely critical of, if not hostile to, the USSR. Shall we consign it to the dustbin of history? Mattley 23:59, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
In all, note many of the recent additions under the "violence" section (formerly "revolutionary violence"-- broadened to include the entire span of their rule) that incorporate the topics that Ultramarine is attempting to bring to light. 172 00:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I made your point again in a clear, specific way. I added that the Soviet Union and China after Stalin and Mao, respectively, continued to be single party regimes that executed political opponents of the regime, though on a far smaller scale. 172 07:15, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article is filled with Trotskyist slants. Stalin suppressed ALL dissent? Find me a quote from Stalin where he actually says it is neccesary to "suppress all dissent". He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism. In fact, there is no Stalinism. Stalinism is term invented by Trots for Marxism-Leninism. Trotskyism is a deviation from Marxism-Leninism.
"He may very well have done that, but that isn't part of Stalinism" Then, if Stalin did it, what is it part of? BTW, Trotsky said there was no such thing as "Trotskyism" and that the term was invented by Stalinists. Trotsky preferred the term "Bolshevik-Leninism". AndyL 17:40, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
No, you smell the truth. Bah, what does that matter if it were all or some? The fact that Stalin did it, is still there. And, further up, there is no Stalinism and there is no Trotskyism. It's just invidual interpretions of how Communism should be, made of them...although I prefer the latter. However; The article is neutral and is just telling history how it happened as neutrally as possible. Although I agree and changed it from "all" to "most".-- OleMurder 06:56, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is interesting that Trotsky would want the term "Bolshevik-Leninism" when he spent most of his life attacking the Bolsheviks and Lenin, and only joined the Bolsheviks in July of 1917 (three months before the revolution) and still spent most of his time attacking Lenin. The solution, IMO, is to not use the term "Stalinism" when writing articles about those who upheld Stalin, or to reference it in such way as to clarify the meaning. Same should be done for Trotskyites if they feel that the term "Troskyism" is incorrect. BTW, Stalin hardly crushed all dissedents. IMO, he was a little too friendly and a good purging before his death might have prevented revisonism and the eventual collapse of the USSR, and we would have a lot more hope for the future today. -- Mista-X 16:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"there is no better Bolshevik" Lenin on Trotsky.
Not going to go into too much detail here, since it has been well covered elsewhere, notably by Karl Marx... Here is the addition made by Luis
Communists don't forget that capital makes up part of the cost of production of a commodity, though they do see capital as 'dead' or 'congealed' labour. There is no conflict between Marx and "Modern economic theory" on the point you claim. Yes, these T-shirts exchange at the same price despite having required different amounts of labour for their production because, in Marxian terms, their value is determined by the average amount of labour required for their production. There are plenty of valid criticisms that could be made of Marx, but this one is just based on a misapprehension I'm afraid. See Wages, Price and Profit or Wage Labour and Capital for more if you like. They explain the Labour theory of value very cogently and address the assumptions you are making. Mattley 19:46, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Ok, got your point. I won't put it back. However, what about the bureaucracy part? That critique seems rather relevant to me - after all it does not only apply to centrally planned states, but to any organization that has become too big. Luis rib 22:07, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
There's no mention of the concept of a gift economy in this article, which I find quite surprising, because the concepts are almost the same. I mean, they could be used to clear up a lot of things which would normally take a lot of things to say, or if the concept wasn't even mentioned, then oh the horror!
Also, I find the fact that this article seems to distinguish too much between anarchism and communism. Can we consider anarchism part of, a branch of communism, whereas Marxist-Leninism is the other main branch? -- Natalinasmpf 22:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I tried my best to rework the article, it needs ALOT of work. But at least now it mentions gift economies a few times.-- Che y Marijuana 03:21, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Also, the other concern is its elaboration of the idea of the gift economy's part in the movement in both the critique, and the response against it, and especially in the Stalinism vs Trotskyism area. -- Natalinasmpf 20:39, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if I seem annoying, but I find the skyscraper example rather bad. Maybe in the US skyscrapers are built entirely with private capital, but in other countries that does not seem to be the case. In the Gulf states skyscrapers are mostly built by state-owned companies. In Europe also the states have a lot of influence on skyscraper-building because of zoning laws, etc. Could the same point be made with another example? Luis rib 17:56, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The links which Ultramarine wants to insert are problematic for a number of reasons. Leaving aside the reliability of the sites in question for the time being, the intro to this article states that it is primarily about the theory of communism. It also states that For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state. This seems more than reasonable as a way of organising discussion of such an enormous topic. And since these links all discuss the abuses of Communist-Party regimes, they don't belong here. If we have all that stuff on the crimes of Communist regimes, then what is to stop someone adding links applauding Stalin's success in raising industrial production in the USSR etc. etc etc. It is off-topic. Why should they be here? Mattley 23:48, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As for the Nazism article, there is a small paragraph on it, but it makes no sense to drag it all into here. If we can't do it justice on this page, as it is a big page, it should be placed almost entirely on the other page.-- Che y Marijuana 03:06, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
My last edit removed some blantant POV from the section on "Communist states." 'Executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' have taken place in capitalist societies, but what would happen if one were to put the following in the article on capitalism:
I hope that no one will attempt to put the above in the article on capitalism. That would be absurd-- just as absurd as allowing the content that I'd removed from the article to stay up... If people are interested in detailing a critique of Communist ideology based on the actions of Communist regimes, they will have to cite the research of authortative sources laying out a relationship between Communist ideology and the actions of political authorities in cases such as Stalinist Russia, Communist China, et. al. JMaxwell 21:01, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Finally, some claim that wars, hunger and lack of elementary medical care, causing the deaths of millions, are the results of capitalist relations of production, making capitalism the single most violent socio-economic system in history. This view, however, is widely criticised, since most wars, famines or epidemics happened in countries that were not really capitalist.
This discussion has already taken place in other talk pages, and there's no need to repeat it here. People looking for information on communism SHOULD find some reference to what happened in countries that officially claimed to be communist. The facts are not in dispute, in any case (there's just some argument on the precise number of deaths, etc.). Your comparison with capitalism is spurious, since capitalism is not as wide-spread as you claim. Certainly not all non-communist states are capitalist. Indeed, most African countries were not capitalist, and neither was Latin America (with the possible exception of Chile). Luis rib 23:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Your claim that capitalism is associated with war is a complete fallacy. I am not making this claim. My point is that all 'executions, labor camps with high mortality, and mass starvations' occurred throughout history in societies where private ownership of the means of production dominated economic output. However, whether or not there was a relationship to capitalism and these occurrences is not for Wikipedia to decide, due to the NPOV policy; instead, this is a matter to be taken up in social science academic journals. In the same vein, Wikipedia cannot assert a relationship between every occurrence under Communist regimes and Communist ideology... If you want to cite authoritative source making this claim, feel free to do so. At the same time, this claim must be balanced with other POVs. JMaxwell 01:57, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
From Communist states:
Yawn. We're all familiar with Rummel, Conquest, Pipes, and the bulk of these authors. Copying and pasting this list, however, is not a license to write a biased diatribe blaming everything occurring under Communist regimes on Communism independent of other factors, such as the social problems inherited from the old regimes... Incidentally, if a Marxist decided to apply your reasoning to the capitalism article, he could just as easily generate a list of Marxist academics who relate capitalism to the great power rivalries leading up to the First World War, the Second World War, and the rise of fascism, and then in turn proceed to blame all the horrors and atrocities of the interwar era on capitalism. JMaxwell 04:37, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I have kept this on my watchlist, although I had taken a vacation from it for various reasons. The article seems somewhat improved; there is at least brief mention of the horrendous consequences of the Communist adventure. This introduction:
":This article is about communism as a form of society built around a gift economy, as an ideology advocating that form of society, and as a popular movement. For issues regarding the organization of the communist movement, see the Communist party article. For issues regarding one-party states ruled by Communist Parties (and everything associated with them), see Communist state.
represents, however, an attempt to distance the article from the realities of practical communism as we have known it in our lifetime and especially from the realities of being involved in the movement.
One note: This article is not about capitalism and the problems capitalism has. That material needs to go in the article, capitalism. Yet, the communist movement cannot be considered apart from capitalism as much of its energy comes from the consequences of capitalist organization of the economy. Fred Bauder 14:47, Mar 22, 2005 (UTC)
No, but neither is the capitalist article going to be mainly about the problems it has. The communism article is good for criticising capitalism from the perspective of a communist economic system. And cannot considered apart? You're basically saying that the immune system really shouldn't be considered apart from viruses, bacteria and cancer cells because much of the "energy" and evolutionary drive to develop an immune system comes from the consequences of pathogen organisation in the body? -- Natalinasmpf 16:48, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Whether we have an article utopian communism or not, that is where this sort of stuff belongs: "...communism itself is stateless in theory and thus cannot be related to the actions of 20th century states." Essentially this is propaganda and is, in fact, a violation of Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. This line served its purpose for bait and switch, but there was no sign any actual Communist movement took it seriously. Our article can include such theories but the bulk of it needs to refer to ideologies which existed or events which occured. Fred Bauder 16:04, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
Concerning gift economy: how is it supposed to work on a national scale? If I want a pineapple, how will I get it in a gift economy? Do I have to go to eBay to see who is willing to give away a pineapple? Also, how does a gift economy encourage people to work and to give their best? They are not sure anyone will give them anything afterwards... Concerning capitalism and greed: the idea is that in "perfect capitalism" those that fall to the bottom work less than those that rise to the top. But "perfect capitalism" would assume that everyone has the same opportunities from the start - which is clearly not the case. Indeed, poverty itself is a reason why many people have too few alternatives. That's why any moderate capitalist will argue that the state should help the poor by providing help for better education and access to free (or at least cheap) medical services. In utopian perfect capitalism, those aids would not be necessary since no-one would be disadvantaged from the start (I know, it's a circular argument - that's why it is an utopy). Since utopias don't exist, some level of state intervention is necessary - the question is then to find the right level. BTW, getting back to Ayn Rand, that's why I said she's an extremist - she's arguing for something that cannot exist in this world. Luis rib 23:07, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, our article capitalism suffers from the same attempts by utopian advocates. Some claim no capitalist society has ever existed. Someone says it is not propaganda. That implies that a serious theorist might believe this utopian vision could in fact exist. I never met them in real life. What I enountered is people who insisted something good might eventually come out of all the effort, but made excuses for the imperfect contemporary examples. Let's pretend, in short. Fred Bauder 01:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
No, a lot of pure capitalist (aka laissez faire) economies have always existed. You can't compare "utopian capitalism" to "utopian communism" - communism was designed for utopia, capitalism was just meant to further the goals of one individual over the other. There is no proposed model for "capitalist utopia", because there was no such thing as a "capitalist manifesto", for instance. You have investment for dummies books, economics books or teachings on how to make money and discussion, but it was never to achieve utopia. Because the system's success is not based on how well the community does: just one individual. Hence, this does not apply. Communism - is an socioeconomic model. Capitalism is a purely economic system. True capitalist societies have always existed, true communist entities that took over countries have never existed. -- Natalinasmpf 02:26, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, Natalinasmpf, but your argument is strange. If communism is an utopia, it means it will never be possible to establish it. Thus, it is impossible to judge its merits, and therefore to say if it's good or not. In a sense, Communism would be like the Garden of Eden - another quasi-religious myth. The problem with utopias is that you cannot criticise them and not falsify them. That exactly why utopias are not scientifically valid. Sure, you can argue that communism could be so much better, but you have no means to either prove it or disprove it. I could also argue that Communism is very bad, but again would have no means to prove it. Therefore, if we confine communism to its uropian version, we should rewrite the whole article and compare it to other such utopias - like the Garden of Eden. BTW your view of capitalism is clearly totally biased, but you are right in one point: capitalism is not an utopia, it's not an ideology. That's why it is not perfect - nothing is - but at least it tries to improve things (and it certainly improved things if you compare it to feudalism or tribal economies). Seeking refuge in an utopia may be nice, but it's just a way to avoid taking difficult decisions. Luis rib 10:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
No means to disprove or prove it? Communism is a pre-thought economic theory, capitalism is more of labelling of a pre-existing formula, ie. chaos theory in economics. Communism is an economic theory and pre-conceived system,, and therefore the article shoud concern it as such. Capitalism is also an economic system, and should be perceived as such. You can't demand that only the material on real-life communism be implemented, because you are forgetting that communism doesn't need to be an economic system of a nation to count as a valid theory... free software, kibbutzes, anyone? The Garden of Eden is not an ideology based on sociopolitical science.
Avoid taking difficult decisions? Are you kidding me? Oh well, continue in your defeatist attitude, but the etymylogy still remains. Communism is an economic theory, which has real life implementations, capitalism follows something similar. As long as capital (assigning an absolute value to materials to invest in) is used, its capitalism. As long as there is a commune-based society, with the correct conditions (if someone compromises, it is no longer communism), that is communism. Communism just happens to apply in more narrow situations. -- Natalinasmpf 19:32, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I know this will anger many people here, but shouldn't there be a section comparing Communism to other ideologies which are viewed as totalitarian? Or, if not here, maybe on Communist state? After all, it is a criticism that is often made. Also, it appears on Fascism, so at least there should be a link to that page. Waiting for your comments... Luis rib 11:12, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What I don't understand is the following: you (or somebody else) said that you couldn't take the USSR or China or Cambodia as an example of a communist economy because they had tried to implement it in countries that were not truly capitalist yet - and that's why it failed economically (let's forget about the human rights issues for a sec). Yet wouldn't that imply that if Communists want to succeed, they should support Capitalism in every way they can since they know that the more the society becomes capitalist, the sooner capitalism will crumble under its own contradictions and the sooner communism will emerge? Luis rib 10:45, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Anyway, in response to Luis' original argument, you're basically asking, shouldn't the immune system support viruses and bacteria and pathogens in every way because the they do so, the sooner the evolutionary drive to develop a better immune system emerges? The idea is to fight the pathogens, and so is the same thing for communism. -- Natalinasmpf 02:40, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Totalitiarianism is sociologically impossible, and has existed no where except in the works of fiction, and the minds of writers such as Orwell. Utopianism, which often seems to be similiar to totalitarianism; is the same. The terms should be totally striked from the article, atleast when talking of scientific communism, such as Marxism(-Leninism). -- Mista-X 17:46, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the commies here on Wikipedia prevent communism from rightfully being treated in the same manner as nazism and fascism. Therefore, the crimes of communism are whitewashed, rationalized and equivocated away.
--Unsigned comment by User:212.202.51.84 Slac speak up! 22:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC).
"The commies" That is just plain ignorant and babyish. Just because you may be a patriot of democracy or some such sh!t does not mean that you are right. As a matter of fact it seems that the USA tries to be totalitarian. They invade countries whose form of government they disagree with. Too bad that it was impossible for them to invade the USSR for all that time.
I personally think that communism should be a group effort to survive in all cases. Maybe the reason that it ends up failing so much is that these days there is always surplus and therefore the people that live in the society don't feel a need to share anything. Communism should have no classes whatsoever. Everyone should get paid according to the value of their service. In other words a garbage man can make as much as a doctor because he helps to avoid the very thing that the doctor is trying to cure! Everything needs to be controlled and surplus Italic textmust be held backItalic text in order to use it when it is only most necessary. People in government would be the only "higher ups" because they are really the only ones that know what's going on and are providing the greatest service to the people. Everything would be shared. Take for example a city block. There are four houses on the block and the block has at its service several cars that can be signed out on a certain day to the members of one house, a house that they do not own! The state owns everything but you just use it. Obviously it would be different for small things that must be owned for their existence to make sense. Mass transit is a better solution for transportation issues. Although Lenin said that "any idea of a god at all is the most unspeakable foulness" religion should not be discouraged.
Questions or comments?
Oh... I see. In this world then it is impossible to have pure communism because the country would most likely be overun. Then there is only one necessity and that would be a state becuase there is no other way to keep up the society in a country and not have it overun. I also didn't say to eliminate surplus. I said to save it until it is necessary. Also when forming a communist "state" you couldn't start out right away with no money. You would need to bring it in gradually since all of your citizens would be used to the idea of money. It would be useful to indoctrinate the children into not feeling the need for money. How could you prevent people from just taking advantage of free luxury items anyway? There is a need for money in the beginning but after that it can be eliminated.
Productivity falls as you increase taxation. People do not work to pay taxes. I have worked harder in the SAME job as my 'ciggarette break' taking collegues do. Thats why i should be payed more, because i work harder, i do twice as much as these young layabouts. Money is reward for hard work. People will always expect payment, women will sell their bodies for favours if you abolish fair payment and men will always gamble. Communism will fail because men like me will always exist. Communism failed for these very reasons, oh and remember under who's 'reign' the Gulag was begun. The leadership of china seem very wealthy. Just like George Galloway in his Second home in portugal! There has never been a true socialist in power. Power corrupts comrades. Welcome to the real world. -- (Unsigned comment by 81.132.70.251)
Yes but the idea of communism is to abolish the state. Not increase taxation. Who gave you idea about increasing taxes? Furthermore the idea as taxes increase, so the amount of benefits you receive from the state. However this results in some central planning, abuse and inefficiency, which is state socialism, aka Leninism, which is not what true communists advocate. Plus, you are an age discriminator because you assume that the younger are less experienced and therefore less skilled, this is such a untrue thing (intelligence over experience)...but that is irrelevant. In a communist society, you are APPRECIATED more for hard work, hence receive more gifts. Read the actual article, and actually read, will you? You cite the Soviet Union, China, gulag, etc. but let me remind you that is state socialism, and even state capitalism, therefore contrary to the true ideal and (whose governments all true communists, anarcho-communists despise). Leadership of China is wealthy because it is capitalist. There has never been a true communist in power because true communists do not seek power, but seek comfort - in peer review, a gift economy, and lack of stress, caused by an egalitarian pursuit. Those who a power-hungry aren't true communists because they are short sighted and repress their populace, which is short-sighted, and they lose our spiritually and intellectually in the end. Because they suppress the amount of amplified returns the receive through a gift economy. Communism advocates a GIFT ECONOMY. Bolsheviks, Stalinists, Maoists and Leninists and other hijackers of the cause are state capitalists who tried to seize the oppurtunity to sadistically repress the cause, not true communists, are evil, should be despised and ridiculed and be done away with for all I care. Communism does not advocate an all powerful state, nor a "dictatorship of the proleteriat". This is inane. "Communist state" is oxymoronic. -- Natalinasmpf 04:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lets analyse the word "communism" shall we? "Commune - ism" - ideology of the commune. Does it SAY anything about an authoritarian government? No. Does it say anything about dictatorship of the proleteriat? No. But what does it say? "Common" can be traced from "commune"! A community! A peer-based economy! A peer-based government! So please stop confusing communism with Leninism, Bolshevism, Pol Potism, or any other repressive ideologies. Leninism, etc. is an attempt to hijack the communist cause into making its the naive blindly commit themselves to a totalitarian state, and an act of perjury, slander, libel and defamation. That's right, the hijackers of the cause are slanderers and liars as well as human rights abusers. Communism is anarchism (just different aspects of the same ideology), and should not be confused with totalitarian ideologies. Totalitarians like Stalin, Trotsky (who was really evil anyway thanks to his actions at Kronstadt), Lenin (who dissolved the Duma, his soul can burn in the lake of sulfur), Pol Pot, Castro, etc. can get their souls tormented for all I care. However true communists like say... Emma Goldman are the real kind of communists who people ought to recognise as actual communists. (Note, I do not advocate posting this in the main article, I am just replying tit for tat to reactionary arguments, since you post your opinion, I post mine). -- Natalinasmpf 04:29, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OleMarxco from RevLeft here, in the hood. Well, me thinkesth that a real Communism has a decantralized system of control totally unlike what Soviet and China practised (which I look upon as State Capitalism - more like "Capitalists of the world, unite!") and also needs to go trough a stage of Capitalism first since industrialization must be follow trough the order that Marx wrote. Russia went straight from Feudalism to Communism, obviously that would not work. It insisted to both keep the STATE, a VANGUARD PARTY as some class -over- the proletarians, and were DEFINATELY not Communism. And communism is DEFINATELY not Anarchism, anarcho-Communism is an oxymoron: Anarchy is like "invidual over the group", Communism is collectivized communes working togheter in a perfect balance of industries and equal treatment of the people before the law: One being rewarded with material possesions proportional with your involvation in society. Excess money is flattened out to everyone, and abolished: It is impossible to "buy" oneself out of an encounter with the law by buying tricky lawyers. Therefore, there is no "classes", that is, so unlike the totalarian wannabe-Communisms, when there is a loss of resources, the weakening does not create a "scism" and a "crack" seperating people, one resources tilting to one side of society over the other, creating differences in wealth. It would decrease at society as a whole. All work is optional, but is rewarded by getting everything by rations the sooner the more you CHOOSE to work (Thus removing some people getting more money than they work for society! And no "inheriting"!)- Wherever you want, it is job rotation so you don't have to work somewhere solely to produce more than needed, but where you are needed. That is Communism - a very noble vision, indeed. But...spoiled. Capitalism is STILL not good enough, it is currently now bosses over workers, and the first world over the third world! EXPLOITING. BAH! Long live the hammer and the sickle.-- OleMurder 16:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
But ah, don't treat Marx like dogma! Sure he had the right spirit, but not necessarily an entirely correct theory. Just as Newton wasn't totally correct with his idea of gravity (its relative to the space time curve, not just a simplistic force), I feel Marx is only partially correct. Industrialisation isn't needed for a successful society to occur - you set up the society first, THEN you industrialise. Anarcho-communism is hardly an oxymoron: anarchy is the "no individual has more power than another individual", power in the sense of ecopolitical oppurtunity power, not stressing that individuals should do whatever they want and run rampant with anomie. One is rewarded with economic and social resources in a gift economy for involvement in the community and thus being appreciated. Because money isn't used, no hoarding, abuse, poverty cycles and the like occurs. Communism has no higher state to enforce the law: it has principles. PEERS enforce laws. This prevents abuse from ever, ever happening (unlike the compromise of representative democratic socialism which has loopholes for abuse and plutocracy to occur). In an anarcho-communist society, there will probably be the scheme of ostraca, but in a more highly implemented form to say, provide an incentive for working for the food you receive freely. Else, people can just break off giving gifts to you. And since this isn't regulated centrally or by a higher power, there isn't any abuse. A gift economy has no "rations" - gifts are left to discernment. Contribute little, receive little. Contribute a lot, a lot of resources are used to invest in say, farming, technology, which produces more, hence growth, hence you win out by giving more, since the risk is very low. No one executes one another for not working (but except in cases of armed conflict or murder) because freedoms are respected. You cannot "ration" out rewards. It is left to the peers. If you don't work, people are disgusted at you and don't give to you. But the thing is, its based on empathy, rather than rigid laws. When its decentralised, its more flexible and people can sense the circumstances. For example, if you just lost your parents and your gift giving falls 50%, most people are generally going to be sympathetic. In a rigid law based society this probably wouldn't happen too much. Economic flexibility => higher economic growth => harmony et al. => decentralisation means harder to be attacked by enemies, easier to attack enemies. (Anybody who playes Weiqi knows this. Fluid! Formless! And your enemies will not know where to attack.) -- Natalinasmpf 20:15, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Thank you very much. That is all very helpful and very LOGICAL!!! I don't see how capitalism even survives really. Lenin was partly right in that a communist revolution needs to happen everywhere at once to stay alive. Screw the thing about underdeveloped countries helping developed countries into being communists. Everything that has ever been called communism in human memory has been Capitalistic State Socialism! The reason the USA was so adamant about destroying "communism" was because the term was being missaplied to State Socailism. Communism would be the best thing that could ever happen to a society. But because of the USSR, China, North Korea, and Vietnam communism (which was actually state socialism) has made a bad name for itself. I seriously doubt that nearly anyone who thinks that they know what communism is really does know what it means. When people refer to communism they think "Communism= USSR= Evil!" If anyone knew what communism really was they would all (hopefully) join a movement. When setting up communism there would need to be mild administration at first until everyone got themselves organized. (and the politicians of this world are killed.) And now that i know what communism really is... I luv it!
That's why I hope all of you will help me overthrow the US government by educating the proletariat! God, I hate capitalism. Who here is with me? Email me at "vash_donutfreak@hotmail.com"!-- Terre Lotliby
Aye, you have my support I suppose. There is time for a change, and the hell away from all this Neo-Con bullshit we've gotten weaved into now. Hooray for revolution, and let us not repeat the previous faults! No Vanguard Party! Go Communism!-- OleMurder 22:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Good edit User:Natalinasmpf, you are quite correct. The soviet union wasn't much of a dictatorship after Stalin, and China isn't really a dictatorship either. Sam Spade 10:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think your POV is pretty clear, you wear it on your shirt sleeve and all ;) Sam Spade 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that all previous self-proclaimed "Communist"-countries gets moved instead to "State-Capitalism". That goes for both China and Soviet. At very least these were awkward socialist states with a insane vanguard party gone strait from Feudalism.-- OleMurder 07:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
What it all comes down to is that every experimental or serious attempt at Communism, large and small, has for a variety of reasons, failed. Capitalism is still going strong. When the whole Capitalist juggernaut goes Kablooie, then Communists may have room to criticize it... IF they ever get their thing going. Tom S.
Good edit User:Natalinasmpf, you are quite correct. The soviet union wasn't much of a dictatorship after Stalin, and China isn't really a dictatorship either. Sam Spade 10:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I think your POV is pretty clear, you wear it on your shirt sleeve and all ;) Sam Spade 21:02, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
I demand that all previous self-proclaimed "Communist"-countries gets moved instead to "State-Capitalism". That goes for both China and Soviet. At very least these were awkward socialist states with a insane vanguard party gone strait from Feudalism.-- OleMurder 07:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
What it all comes down to is that every experimental or serious attempt at Communism, large and small, has for a variety of reasons, failed. Capitalism is still going strong. When the whole Capitalist juggernaut goes Kablooie, then Communists may have room to criticize it... IF they ever get their thing going. Tom S.
Is this supposed to be serious criticism? These sentences were some of the worst offenders:
What kind of chimpanzee? Common chimpanzees and bonobos have extremely different behaviours, although both are far more genetically similar to each other than they are to humans. The reference to other primates seems a little too vague.
This is a misrepresentation of the "selfish-gene" theory. The "selfish gene" theory says nothing about how the individual should behave. What it says is that genes evolve in a way that helps to propagate their own survival regardless of the positive, negative, or neutral effects on the individual or group. If cooperation helps all the individuals involved, and thus helps to maximize the distribution of those individuals' genes, then cooperation will evolve (remember even in the selfish gene theory it is still the individual that must survive and propagate). This misrepresentation is so egregious that it begs for a citation.
Much of the criticism section seems to just be the POV of the editors here, is there any sources for this criticism? If not, I might start deleting some of the obvious garbage within the next few days. millerc 8 July 2005 03:29 (UTC)
It should be mentioned, but it certainly doesn't belong in the "future" section. Where should we put it? -- Kennyisinvisible 9 July 2005 16:02 (UTC)
"As a political movement, communism is a more radical branch of the broader socialist movement. The communist movement differentiates itself from other branches of the socialist movement through their wish to completely do away with all aspects of market society under the final stage of the system ..."
Erm, unless I'm sorely mistaken Socialism is a branch of Communism, not the other way around. -- Kennyisinvisible 9 July 2005 16:08 (UTC)
Yes, communism is a branch of the socialist movement. The idea that socialism is a branch of the communist movement comes from the idea that it's a compromise for communist systems, which it isn't. Rather, communism is the most extreme branch of the socialist movement. However, Marxist-Leninism tends tends to go towards populism, while Kroptokin and communist anarchism is the most extreme branch of the libertarian socialist movement. Socialism has other movements (besides social democracy, which is probably what you're thinking of, democratic socialism (which is actually different), a form of bourgeois socialism (to appease), and various other forms as well. -- Natalinasmpf 9 July 2005 18:01 (UTC)