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Please, someone that has read Marx and Hegel correct me if I'm wrong.
Hegel (or someone else) believed in dialectic processes, where each idea (the thesis) generated it's antithesis, and together they merged into a sysnthesis, which again generated it's own antithesis, and so on.
Marx based on that created a "materialistic dialectics" where each historical institution has created its antithesis, and a systhesis has been made. That until the last systhesis, comunism.
Does it sound familiar to any philosopher that has read marx and/or hegel??
Frankly, I haven't read much of either. :-) -- LMS
"materialistic dialectics" has little to do with heglan dialectics. But I only really know Marx, not Hegel.-- Taw
My exposure to Hegel is basically limited to having read part of Popper's 'The Open Society' (or whatever he calls it). Popper claims that all Hegel's philosophy boils down to is that "19th century Prussian absolutism is the highest development of the universe." I know Hegel was very interested in tracing the dialectic through history. However, I think Popper's work is pretty extreme -- his incessant Plato-bashing makes me feel unwell -- give poor Plato a break! -- SJK
Much better than my version, Dmerrill. -- Ed Poor
IIRC during Stalin's rule Soviet Union claimed they already have communism. -- Taw
In two dozen years of participating in and observing discussions about communism with its adherents and opponents, never once have I encountered debate over whether the Soviet Union or China or any other Communist country was "truly communist". Anyone familiar with Marxism knows that the stage of society in Communist countries is socialism. The countries are called Communist in the West because of their political systems, not because of any confusion over what stage in Marxist theory their society has reached.
Perhaps it would be clearer if the article said that some observers or theorists object to calling Communist countries "Communist" because feel that the term communism should be reserved for the sense in which Marx intended it.
Nonetheless, in political discussion especially when contrasting freedom with repression, it is useful to refer to the Free World, the Communist World, and the Third World. We don't have to like these usages, but to be a useful encyclopedia the Wikipedia should observe these usages.
To SR and David: There's a slogan that goes, "The Communist world ain't communist, and the Free World ain't free." The communism article should clearly distinguish between Marx's theoretical stage (communism with a small c) and the political system of the socialist countries ruled by self-designated Communist parties (Communism with a big C). -- [[Ed ---- I think my latest tweak addresses the Communism vs. communism and Communism vs. socialism distinctions adequately and concisely. Next task to address is eliminating the rambling and redundancy. Also, we need to describe historical examples of Communism in more detail, as in Eastern Europe, USSR, PRC, and so on. I'm not sure how to deal with the overlap between the communism and Marxism articles. -- Ed Poor Poor]]
I removed a small allusion that Stalin's strategy was "not Marxist:" he thought it was and the best he could do. To enlarge on the point: it will not in the end do to disclaim communists' ownership of totalitarianism and mass murder; it comes with the territory. User:Fredbauder
There is an extended discussion of the "Socialism in One Country" dispute in Isaac Deutscher's political biography of Stalin. What we have now and had in the article is a very simplistic shorthand for the actual dispute which involved many factors. An extended discussion probably belongs somewhere else like in History of the Soviet Union.
Large block of text that was deleted at leftism that should probably be integrated here:
Describing the practices of utopian communities and Native American tribes as primitive communism is simply the language that is used to contrast them with communism as a sophisticated successor to capitalism. Fredbauder 12:02 Oct 21, 2002 (UTC)
A small point, but an important one, I think. The addition of the word "ostensibly" to the sentence Communism .. refers to rule by "the dictatorship of the proletariat"... changes the meaning quite considerably, and for the worse. Communisim, even communisim as a system of government, is an ideal construct - this is to use "ideal" in its true sense, to mean "made of ideas" or "conceptual" - and a fair article on communisim must reflect this (as well as reflect the imperfections of in-practice implementations, of course). Ideal constructs - idea-al, not desired - are a centuries-old tool of analysis, and critically important in many fields, not just politics. Consider, for example, geometry: an ideal line has infinite length and zero width, just as ideal communisim consists of a dictatorship of the proletariat. The fact that neither ideal construct can be demonstrated in the material world does not mean that they are without utility. Consider the sentence:
"Ostensibly" implies subtrefuge, the cynical intent to mislead. It is not appropriate in this context. The practical difficulty of achieving dictatorship of the proletariat is already clearly signaled by the ironic double quotes and the following parenthetical phrase "in practice, dictatorship by the ruling party". The addition of the single word "ostensibly" turns a balanced statement of what communisim is into an unbalanced and cynical critique. Tannin 01:39 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
"In practice and contrary to the utopian dreams of the founders and adherents of communism, modern societies attempting to reach communism are marked by environmental degradation, totalitarian rule, and a general unhappiness and dispair."
This is an irrelevant statement. The goal does not specify the process. Who said that in order to reach communist utopia that a society must move towards that end? The communist dictators argued that force would be needed (i.e., head in the opposite direction to reach the goal faster.) The process is socialism, which is not part of this article. -- Jiang 22:44, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I don't like the sloppy usage of the name "Vladimir Lenin" in this article. There is no such person! "Lenin" is nothing but a pen name used by Vladimir Ulyanov to avoid arrest by the czar's police. So this article should use the full and correct name for the leader of the Russian Revolution, Vladimir Ulyanov, rather than mixing his real first name with his pseudonymous last name.
Patrick
" For obvious reasons, such a circumstance has never occurred, and the Marxist ideal of communism is commonly viewed as propaganda only, with the actual circumstance being the totalitarian regimes listed below. "
The above is a statement I have written, and which is the source of some disagreement. Lets discuss it here. Jack 05:56, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
In this encyclopedia, we try to give accurate and neutral information. We do not take the part of communism or anti-communism. It can be an opportunity of political discussion of course but let us agree about facts. Facts are either undisputable historical events or theoretical approaches that can be found in the relative documents. In case of the definition of the word "communism", facts are the answers to questions such as "What really happened?" or "Who said what?". A good policy is to avoid personal opinions and evaluations. One can believe that communism is just a propaganda. Another, may be inspired by this ideal. A third may believe that it is an unrealistic though attractive plan. This is not the point. We cannot discuss in terms of "for obvious reasons (?) .......this is impossible" or "communism is bad/good because I say so" or "most people believe that Stalin is a criminal/hero" or "The prohibition of the religion is the reason for the Soviet Union's collapse". How do you know it? They do not make any sense. We will never find a solution.
In my point we should reread the article and find everythig that can be disputed in terms of historical sources or bibliography and correct it or complete it by mentioning the source when possible. The article about communism needs work. I tried to improve it in the way I described above. My effort is far from being perfect. I can accept with open mind everything based on documents. For instance, the point where I wrote about the capitalist profit is taken from a Marx's speech to a labour assembly. Unfortunately, I could not find "The Capital". If anybody can, please improve this point. Another example is the "proletariat dictatorship". According to Marx's and Lenin's works it is not actually a dictatorship. It was a term in contradiction to the "dictatorship of the capitalists" as Marx called the political structure of capitalism. To start a discussion claiming that the so called "communism" is a dictatorship because of this term is not serious.
Another point is what really happened in the Soviet Union or China. Did bolsheviks developed socialism "by the book"? Yes/No why? This is a subject for a PhD. There are no easy answers.
In terms of NPOV, I think if you want to slant something against people as much as possible, the icing on the cake is you refuse to even let them name themselves. Mohawks become "Indians", socialist countries become "communist countries" (which is an oxymoron), National Liberation Front becomes Viet Cong, Communist Party of Kampuchea becomes Khmer Rouge, Communist Party of Peru becomes Shining Path. And it's amazing to see the edit comments and discussions regarding this. I think it's common sense to use the word people describe themselves as, and as a final indignity, refusing a group the right to say what it's name is is just a full exposition that you are ignoring any sort of neutral point of view. How long is it until feminists becomes "feminazis" and we're all forced to use these ideological neologisms?
No country has ever called itself communist. Countries have called themselves socialist, like the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Why do people call these communist countries, when 1) communist country is an oxymoron since communism means no government and 2) they don't call themselves communist, they call themselves socialist? I don't know.
Then these people attempting obfuscation attempt to further obfuscate it and claim what I'm really trying to say is I do not believe these countries followed the philosophy perfectly and that is whay disclaims them from using the word. Which, of course, is not what I'm saying.
I ask people who use the phrase "communist country" to explain to me why they describe the country as communist, especially since the country calls itself socialist, and especially since the philosophy of communism means there is no country, and they never give a coherent answer. -- Lancemurdoch 18:07, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Mikkalai 20:41, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
help! Im writing a paper on Utopias and i have to compare and contrast two of them. So i picked the views of Karl Marx and Robert Owen on communism. The only problem is is that i dont understand there views. does someone know where i can find an easy virsion on their views of communism?
First of all, every single definition of communism I have seen is different. I was wondering if anyone could just give me a straight, simple answer in layman's terms. Also, everyone I know is shocked when I bring it up, as if communism itself is a bad thing. From what I've been researching, the communism isn't what is causing all of the problems, but rather bad leadership. Can anyone give me any points to argue with? One last question. Would communism be more restrictive in terms of freedoms and rights than democracy is?-The Asker.
That might be because of all the "sub-sorts" of Communism. Of course I could give you a "straight, simple" answer in "layman terms", but it will be overly simplistic, of course. Nevertheless, I'd give it a shot; First, you have to realize that what you have heard so far is Socialism. It's a "transparent state" claiming to be 'onwards' to Communism...and usually the stage were things REALLY slip up. Secondly, it claims to be classless.....
In Communism, Thus everyone will be in "the middle-class". Luxuries are very pointless in such a system. It is affordable by making the poor richer and the richer poorer. Then money is abolished (removed) and society is decantralized with local communes and no central power or state. This is to prove inviduality of places - making the system very unbeurocratic, fluid and formless. Of course there is councils of workers and etc., etc., controlling the industry togheter. Also, there will no longer be elections or a vanguard party but direct democracy on issues - in direct control by the whim of the people so it is impossible to just "corrupt some official". Resources will be distrubutied in ration senters. Jobs will "rotate" and be voluntarly, so you don't have to work but you get benefits if you do - so you can do it IF YOU WANT TO - but still get stuff, only slower. You will "move up the ration-list" and get what you want faster. You and the commune decides togheter what you need and want. No-one can "outsource your job" because you're having a say in the matters and are with on the "decision-making". Strikes, protests and labor unions will be obsolote. That's perhaps one of the shortest I can give meanwhile explaining it the most.
I can see why some are shocked when you bring it up because it is not a pleasent theme. It calls for a violent -revolution-, and the capitalistic system is -overthrown- and this is where some despot might slip in and claim to make a socialistic transparent system with a state and form a state-capitalistic (technically) rule "dictatorship of the proletar" with a vanguard party. It is easy in the chaos for some "convincing leader" to assume power. Therefore the people must have their eyes open and reject all legitimacy of a one-ruler "the state is me". That is why people combine it with evil....and I propose to skip that "socialistic" stage. Communism has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the "bad leadership", as you seem to call it. It has -NEVER- been practiced and was just because of someone's sincere wish to attempt it with some misguided totalarian thoughts, and that someone LESS sincere who pretended to be on that side overthrew power afterwards, it got pretty bad off. In both Russia and China they were feudalistic before the revolution so it were kind of impossible to make that transition. You have to go trough Capitalism first, and they did only under restraints. Bosses were kept around and paid and the transporting system were inefficent.
And as for the last question, No: Only for the burgeouise bosses, or, as we call it: "The freedom of the slave owners" will be taken away. No-one shall reap the goods of the worker who has to sell themselves each day and gets little in comparison to what the boss reaps in return. As for Religion - they will immediatly loose organized power, too. Reactionary groups might be supressed but only if a local militia decides to do so. We will also abolish borders, no need for such national bullshit. There is no "main culture" or anything. Communism is international and humanistic - The opposement of Nazism. Thanks for reading.-- OleMurder 08:03, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Please, someone that has read Marx and Hegel correct me if I'm wrong.
Hegel (or someone else) believed in dialectic processes, where each idea (the thesis) generated it's antithesis, and together they merged into a sysnthesis, which again generated it's own antithesis, and so on.
Marx based on that created a "materialistic dialectics" where each historical institution has created its antithesis, and a systhesis has been made. That until the last systhesis, comunism.
Does it sound familiar to any philosopher that has read marx and/or hegel??
Frankly, I haven't read much of either. :-) -- LMS
"materialistic dialectics" has little to do with heglan dialectics. But I only really know Marx, not Hegel.-- Taw
My exposure to Hegel is basically limited to having read part of Popper's 'The Open Society' (or whatever he calls it). Popper claims that all Hegel's philosophy boils down to is that "19th century Prussian absolutism is the highest development of the universe." I know Hegel was very interested in tracing the dialectic through history. However, I think Popper's work is pretty extreme -- his incessant Plato-bashing makes me feel unwell -- give poor Plato a break! -- SJK
Much better than my version, Dmerrill. -- Ed Poor
IIRC during Stalin's rule Soviet Union claimed they already have communism. -- Taw
In two dozen years of participating in and observing discussions about communism with its adherents and opponents, never once have I encountered debate over whether the Soviet Union or China or any other Communist country was "truly communist". Anyone familiar with Marxism knows that the stage of society in Communist countries is socialism. The countries are called Communist in the West because of their political systems, not because of any confusion over what stage in Marxist theory their society has reached.
Perhaps it would be clearer if the article said that some observers or theorists object to calling Communist countries "Communist" because feel that the term communism should be reserved for the sense in which Marx intended it.
Nonetheless, in political discussion especially when contrasting freedom with repression, it is useful to refer to the Free World, the Communist World, and the Third World. We don't have to like these usages, but to be a useful encyclopedia the Wikipedia should observe these usages.
To SR and David: There's a slogan that goes, "The Communist world ain't communist, and the Free World ain't free." The communism article should clearly distinguish between Marx's theoretical stage (communism with a small c) and the political system of the socialist countries ruled by self-designated Communist parties (Communism with a big C). -- [[Ed ---- I think my latest tweak addresses the Communism vs. communism and Communism vs. socialism distinctions adequately and concisely. Next task to address is eliminating the rambling and redundancy. Also, we need to describe historical examples of Communism in more detail, as in Eastern Europe, USSR, PRC, and so on. I'm not sure how to deal with the overlap between the communism and Marxism articles. -- Ed Poor Poor]]
I removed a small allusion that Stalin's strategy was "not Marxist:" he thought it was and the best he could do. To enlarge on the point: it will not in the end do to disclaim communists' ownership of totalitarianism and mass murder; it comes with the territory. User:Fredbauder
There is an extended discussion of the "Socialism in One Country" dispute in Isaac Deutscher's political biography of Stalin. What we have now and had in the article is a very simplistic shorthand for the actual dispute which involved many factors. An extended discussion probably belongs somewhere else like in History of the Soviet Union.
Large block of text that was deleted at leftism that should probably be integrated here:
Describing the practices of utopian communities and Native American tribes as primitive communism is simply the language that is used to contrast them with communism as a sophisticated successor to capitalism. Fredbauder 12:02 Oct 21, 2002 (UTC)
A small point, but an important one, I think. The addition of the word "ostensibly" to the sentence Communism .. refers to rule by "the dictatorship of the proletariat"... changes the meaning quite considerably, and for the worse. Communisim, even communisim as a system of government, is an ideal construct - this is to use "ideal" in its true sense, to mean "made of ideas" or "conceptual" - and a fair article on communisim must reflect this (as well as reflect the imperfections of in-practice implementations, of course). Ideal constructs - idea-al, not desired - are a centuries-old tool of analysis, and critically important in many fields, not just politics. Consider, for example, geometry: an ideal line has infinite length and zero width, just as ideal communisim consists of a dictatorship of the proletariat. The fact that neither ideal construct can be demonstrated in the material world does not mean that they are without utility. Consider the sentence:
"Ostensibly" implies subtrefuge, the cynical intent to mislead. It is not appropriate in this context. The practical difficulty of achieving dictatorship of the proletariat is already clearly signaled by the ironic double quotes and the following parenthetical phrase "in practice, dictatorship by the ruling party". The addition of the single word "ostensibly" turns a balanced statement of what communisim is into an unbalanced and cynical critique. Tannin 01:39 Dec 31, 2002 (UTC)
"In practice and contrary to the utopian dreams of the founders and adherents of communism, modern societies attempting to reach communism are marked by environmental degradation, totalitarian rule, and a general unhappiness and dispair."
This is an irrelevant statement. The goal does not specify the process. Who said that in order to reach communist utopia that a society must move towards that end? The communist dictators argued that force would be needed (i.e., head in the opposite direction to reach the goal faster.) The process is socialism, which is not part of this article. -- Jiang 22:44, 20 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I don't like the sloppy usage of the name "Vladimir Lenin" in this article. There is no such person! "Lenin" is nothing but a pen name used by Vladimir Ulyanov to avoid arrest by the czar's police. So this article should use the full and correct name for the leader of the Russian Revolution, Vladimir Ulyanov, rather than mixing his real first name with his pseudonymous last name.
Patrick
" For obvious reasons, such a circumstance has never occurred, and the Marxist ideal of communism is commonly viewed as propaganda only, with the actual circumstance being the totalitarian regimes listed below. "
The above is a statement I have written, and which is the source of some disagreement. Lets discuss it here. Jack 05:56, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
In this encyclopedia, we try to give accurate and neutral information. We do not take the part of communism or anti-communism. It can be an opportunity of political discussion of course but let us agree about facts. Facts are either undisputable historical events or theoretical approaches that can be found in the relative documents. In case of the definition of the word "communism", facts are the answers to questions such as "What really happened?" or "Who said what?". A good policy is to avoid personal opinions and evaluations. One can believe that communism is just a propaganda. Another, may be inspired by this ideal. A third may believe that it is an unrealistic though attractive plan. This is not the point. We cannot discuss in terms of "for obvious reasons (?) .......this is impossible" or "communism is bad/good because I say so" or "most people believe that Stalin is a criminal/hero" or "The prohibition of the religion is the reason for the Soviet Union's collapse". How do you know it? They do not make any sense. We will never find a solution.
In my point we should reread the article and find everythig that can be disputed in terms of historical sources or bibliography and correct it or complete it by mentioning the source when possible. The article about communism needs work. I tried to improve it in the way I described above. My effort is far from being perfect. I can accept with open mind everything based on documents. For instance, the point where I wrote about the capitalist profit is taken from a Marx's speech to a labour assembly. Unfortunately, I could not find "The Capital". If anybody can, please improve this point. Another example is the "proletariat dictatorship". According to Marx's and Lenin's works it is not actually a dictatorship. It was a term in contradiction to the "dictatorship of the capitalists" as Marx called the political structure of capitalism. To start a discussion claiming that the so called "communism" is a dictatorship because of this term is not serious.
Another point is what really happened in the Soviet Union or China. Did bolsheviks developed socialism "by the book"? Yes/No why? This is a subject for a PhD. There are no easy answers.
In terms of NPOV, I think if you want to slant something against people as much as possible, the icing on the cake is you refuse to even let them name themselves. Mohawks become "Indians", socialist countries become "communist countries" (which is an oxymoron), National Liberation Front becomes Viet Cong, Communist Party of Kampuchea becomes Khmer Rouge, Communist Party of Peru becomes Shining Path. And it's amazing to see the edit comments and discussions regarding this. I think it's common sense to use the word people describe themselves as, and as a final indignity, refusing a group the right to say what it's name is is just a full exposition that you are ignoring any sort of neutral point of view. How long is it until feminists becomes "feminazis" and we're all forced to use these ideological neologisms?
No country has ever called itself communist. Countries have called themselves socialist, like the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Why do people call these communist countries, when 1) communist country is an oxymoron since communism means no government and 2) they don't call themselves communist, they call themselves socialist? I don't know.
Then these people attempting obfuscation attempt to further obfuscate it and claim what I'm really trying to say is I do not believe these countries followed the philosophy perfectly and that is whay disclaims them from using the word. Which, of course, is not what I'm saying.
I ask people who use the phrase "communist country" to explain to me why they describe the country as communist, especially since the country calls itself socialist, and especially since the philosophy of communism means there is no country, and they never give a coherent answer. -- Lancemurdoch 18:07, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Mikkalai 20:41, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)
help! Im writing a paper on Utopias and i have to compare and contrast two of them. So i picked the views of Karl Marx and Robert Owen on communism. The only problem is is that i dont understand there views. does someone know where i can find an easy virsion on their views of communism?
First of all, every single definition of communism I have seen is different. I was wondering if anyone could just give me a straight, simple answer in layman's terms. Also, everyone I know is shocked when I bring it up, as if communism itself is a bad thing. From what I've been researching, the communism isn't what is causing all of the problems, but rather bad leadership. Can anyone give me any points to argue with? One last question. Would communism be more restrictive in terms of freedoms and rights than democracy is?-The Asker.
That might be because of all the "sub-sorts" of Communism. Of course I could give you a "straight, simple" answer in "layman terms", but it will be overly simplistic, of course. Nevertheless, I'd give it a shot; First, you have to realize that what you have heard so far is Socialism. It's a "transparent state" claiming to be 'onwards' to Communism...and usually the stage were things REALLY slip up. Secondly, it claims to be classless.....
In Communism, Thus everyone will be in "the middle-class". Luxuries are very pointless in such a system. It is affordable by making the poor richer and the richer poorer. Then money is abolished (removed) and society is decantralized with local communes and no central power or state. This is to prove inviduality of places - making the system very unbeurocratic, fluid and formless. Of course there is councils of workers and etc., etc., controlling the industry togheter. Also, there will no longer be elections or a vanguard party but direct democracy on issues - in direct control by the whim of the people so it is impossible to just "corrupt some official". Resources will be distrubutied in ration senters. Jobs will "rotate" and be voluntarly, so you don't have to work but you get benefits if you do - so you can do it IF YOU WANT TO - but still get stuff, only slower. You will "move up the ration-list" and get what you want faster. You and the commune decides togheter what you need and want. No-one can "outsource your job" because you're having a say in the matters and are with on the "decision-making". Strikes, protests and labor unions will be obsolote. That's perhaps one of the shortest I can give meanwhile explaining it the most.
I can see why some are shocked when you bring it up because it is not a pleasent theme. It calls for a violent -revolution-, and the capitalistic system is -overthrown- and this is where some despot might slip in and claim to make a socialistic transparent system with a state and form a state-capitalistic (technically) rule "dictatorship of the proletar" with a vanguard party. It is easy in the chaos for some "convincing leader" to assume power. Therefore the people must have their eyes open and reject all legitimacy of a one-ruler "the state is me". That is why people combine it with evil....and I propose to skip that "socialistic" stage. Communism has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the "bad leadership", as you seem to call it. It has -NEVER- been practiced and was just because of someone's sincere wish to attempt it with some misguided totalarian thoughts, and that someone LESS sincere who pretended to be on that side overthrew power afterwards, it got pretty bad off. In both Russia and China they were feudalistic before the revolution so it were kind of impossible to make that transition. You have to go trough Capitalism first, and they did only under restraints. Bosses were kept around and paid and the transporting system were inefficent.
And as for the last question, No: Only for the burgeouise bosses, or, as we call it: "The freedom of the slave owners" will be taken away. No-one shall reap the goods of the worker who has to sell themselves each day and gets little in comparison to what the boss reaps in return. As for Religion - they will immediatly loose organized power, too. Reactionary groups might be supressed but only if a local militia decides to do so. We will also abolish borders, no need for such national bullshit. There is no "main culture" or anything. Communism is international and humanistic - The opposement of Nazism. Thanks for reading.-- OleMurder 08:03, 13 May 2005 (UTC)