This article is within the scope of WikiProject Luxembourg, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Grand Duchy of Luxembourg on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: closed without a decision in deference to the new move discussion below. It does not make sense to have two separate move discussions running at the same time.
EdJohnston (
talk)
15:24, 4 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Now an IP account
77.179.86.68 has listed the category for renaming. The IP range points to the identify of the nominator as
user:Tobias Conradi who is blocked on Wikipedia.
Evidence of
WP:SOCK: (i) Two other 77.179... IP addresses from Telefonica Germany were included in the last batch of socks blocked at
Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Tobias_Conradi/Archive#27_October_2017. (ii) Pattern of editing: the first and only edits from this address dived straight in with nominations using somewhat arcane Wikipedia procedures.
As I attempted to make clear above, I am not actually seeking a move back to the old name, but ensuring that a full discussion is held on the name, rather than allowing technical procedures to be used for one renaming after another without full examination of the merits of the case. –
FayenaticLondon16:29, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
RE "(i)" - how is being included in a batch evidence for a relation to Tobias Conradi? Or is it, because Tobias Conradi is related to Berlin and edited geography items all around the world (5 March 2005 he started
Wikipedia:WikiProject Country subdivisions) and was concerned with application of WP:UE and naming consistency, that any IP being related to Berlin, and also editing towards naming consistency and enforcing WP policies is accused of being used by Tobias Conradi? So, any edits in conformance with WP policies are now reverted, even if errors are re-introduced?
WP:VANDAL: "On Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose".
Comment I have moved the page back to the previous version, at which it was stable for 12 years.
ALLofME (
talk·contribs) should not have used
WP:RMTR which is for "Uncontroversial technical requests" and instead commenced their own RM. The activity from certain IPs and new users is highly suspicious and suggests experienced trolls.
AusLondonder (
talk)
17:53, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Proposing a move from Communes of Luxembourg (stable for 12 years) to Municipalities of Luxembourg as an "uncontroversial technical request" was the undiscussed move. I am reverting to the stable version from which it was moved without discussion nor consensus. If you would like to move the page, please start a RM.
AusLondonder (
talk)
09:47, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 31 October 2017
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Strongly oppose As already stated, this is not a technical request and serious concerns have been raised by well-regarded editors about sockpupperty. The original move from Communes of Luxembourg (stable for 12 years) to Municipalities of Luxembourg was the undiscussed move, incorrectly labelled as an "uncontroversial technical request".
AusLondonder (
talk)
09:45, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
And the move itself is problematic because...sockpuppetry allegations? Or is it just because Luxembourg calls their municipalities "communes"? I guess I'm missing the point here.
ToThAc (
talk)
13:00, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
It needs discussion to form a consensus as is the usual practice for moving articles. This is not an uncontroversial technical request by any stretch of the imagination. I and other editors oppose the move on several grounds.
AusLondonder (
talk)
14:06, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
User:Anthony Appleyard did you see that above on this page there was a move discussion and that
User:AusLondonderdisruptively moved the article while the discussion was still going on? The technical request by 77.179.110.153 was made on that ground
[2]. AusLondonder misrepresented the case by claiming "incorrectly labelled as an "uncontroversial technical request"" and "serious concerns have been raised by well-regarded editors about sockpupperty" - but no such "serious concerns" "by well-regarded editors about sockpupperty" can be found.
77.179.131.232 (
talk)
18:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment Now this has been moved here I will reiterate my opposition on several grounds. Firstly, per
WP:TITLECHANGES ("If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed") - the page has been stable at the present title for 12 years. Secondly, no actual credible reason has been presented for a move. The only rationale presented is
WP:UE but no explanation is given how it applies here. Apparently some editors are unaware "commune" is an English-language word.
AusLondonder (
talk)
14:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
The request was not made on the basis of
WP:UE, but on procedural ground and it was placed in the section "Requests to revert undiscussed moves". Your move was undiscussed and you were aware that it is controversial.
77.179.131.232 (
talk)
18:18, 2 November 2017 (UTC)reply
User:AusLondonder Then stop doing it. Yes, you restored a title, but you did it after it was stable for several months. And you did it while the move back was discussed. You circumvented the move discussion. You ignored the text of the move tag: "Do not move the page until the discussion has reached consensus for the change and is closed."
77.180.191.133 (
talk)
22:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)reply
12 years vs a few months (after a move by a SPA). My view is the original title was the stable version. This discussion will decide. Concerns had been raised about sockpuppetry and circumvention of a global ban, and our policy is to revert edits by banned users.
AusLondonder (
talk)
03:05, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Another instance of
WP:UE being misinterpreted. It does not say or mean that we should translate absolutely everything. "Communes" as used in French-speaking countries is not generally translated in English-language sources produced in English-speaking countries. Its meaning is well understood everywhere. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
12:51, 2 November 2017 (UTC)reply
User:Necrothesp : did you bother to check the sources before spreading your allegations of "
WP:UE being misinterpreted"?
It is a fact that when writing in English foreign organisations tend to assume they have to translate everything for the good of us "ignorant" English-speakers (ironically, UE tends to be cited far more by editors whose native language isn't English!). They don't and we don't. Incidentally, re the language of Luxembourg, to quote from our article: "French is the preferred language of the government. Official legislation must be conducted in French." --
Necrothesp (
talk)
11:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
User:Necrothesp Claiming facts without giving sources does not give your points much credibility. Quoting WP on language preferrence of the government does not help either: There is no WP:UsePreferredGovLanguage. The population also uses German and Luxembourgish. And when you invoke the Gov for French, why not for English? This is the English Wikipedia, not the French one.
WP:ENGLISH: "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources". Do you claim public.lu is not a reliable source?
77.180.172.226 (
talk)
19:11, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Exactly. We use the name that is commonest in reliable English-language sources. These are generally sources from English-speaking countries written by people whose native language is English. Not sources from non-English-speaking countries written by people who native language is something else. All sorts of errors and misconceptions about English usage tend to creep into the latter. And one of those is that everything must be translated. My quote from our article about the preferred government language, incidentally, was merely intended to refute your claim that Luxembourg was not a French-speaking country. Overwhelmingly it is seen as such, even by its own government. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
19:53, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
"These are generally sources from English-speaking countries" - hear, hear. Any source for that claim? Re "My quote from our article about the preferred government language, incidentally, was merely intended to refute your claim that Luxembourg was not a French-speaking country. Overwhelmingly it is seen as such, even by its own government." - Any proof for that? The constitution does not say so. Even the government does not say so. The national language indeed is a Germanic one.
85.181.154.85 (
talk)
17:44, 4 November 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
External links modified
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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: closed without a decision in deference to the new move discussion below. It does not make sense to have two separate move discussions running at the same time.
EdJohnston (
talk)
15:24, 4 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Now an IP account
77.179.86.68 has listed the category for renaming. The IP range points to the identify of the nominator as
user:Tobias Conradi who is blocked on Wikipedia.
Evidence of
WP:SOCK: (i) Two other 77.179... IP addresses from Telefonica Germany were included in the last batch of socks blocked at
Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Tobias_Conradi/Archive#27_October_2017. (ii) Pattern of editing: the first and only edits from this address dived straight in with nominations using somewhat arcane Wikipedia procedures.
As I attempted to make clear above, I am not actually seeking a move back to the old name, but ensuring that a full discussion is held on the name, rather than allowing technical procedures to be used for one renaming after another without full examination of the merits of the case. –
FayenaticLondon16:29, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
RE "(i)" - how is being included in a batch evidence for a relation to Tobias Conradi? Or is it, because Tobias Conradi is related to Berlin and edited geography items all around the world (5 March 2005 he started
Wikipedia:WikiProject Country subdivisions) and was concerned with application of WP:UE and naming consistency, that any IP being related to Berlin, and also editing towards naming consistency and enforcing WP policies is accused of being used by Tobias Conradi? So, any edits in conformance with WP policies are now reverted, even if errors are re-introduced?
WP:VANDAL: "On Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose".
Comment I have moved the page back to the previous version, at which it was stable for 12 years.
ALLofME (
talk·contribs) should not have used
WP:RMTR which is for "Uncontroversial technical requests" and instead commenced their own RM. The activity from certain IPs and new users is highly suspicious and suggests experienced trolls.
AusLondonder (
talk)
17:53, 29 October 2017 (UTC)reply
Proposing a move from Communes of Luxembourg (stable for 12 years) to Municipalities of Luxembourg as an "uncontroversial technical request" was the undiscussed move. I am reverting to the stable version from which it was moved without discussion nor consensus. If you would like to move the page, please start a RM.
AusLondonder (
talk)
09:47, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 31 October 2017
The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Strongly oppose As already stated, this is not a technical request and serious concerns have been raised by well-regarded editors about sockpupperty. The original move from Communes of Luxembourg (stable for 12 years) to Municipalities of Luxembourg was the undiscussed move, incorrectly labelled as an "uncontroversial technical request".
AusLondonder (
talk)
09:45, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
And the move itself is problematic because...sockpuppetry allegations? Or is it just because Luxembourg calls their municipalities "communes"? I guess I'm missing the point here.
ToThAc (
talk)
13:00, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
It needs discussion to form a consensus as is the usual practice for moving articles. This is not an uncontroversial technical request by any stretch of the imagination. I and other editors oppose the move on several grounds.
AusLondonder (
talk)
14:06, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
User:Anthony Appleyard did you see that above on this page there was a move discussion and that
User:AusLondonderdisruptively moved the article while the discussion was still going on? The technical request by 77.179.110.153 was made on that ground
[2]. AusLondonder misrepresented the case by claiming "incorrectly labelled as an "uncontroversial technical request"" and "serious concerns have been raised by well-regarded editors about sockpupperty" - but no such "serious concerns" "by well-regarded editors about sockpupperty" can be found.
77.179.131.232 (
talk)
18:27, 2 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Comment Now this has been moved here I will reiterate my opposition on several grounds. Firstly, per
WP:TITLECHANGES ("If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed") - the page has been stable at the present title for 12 years. Secondly, no actual credible reason has been presented for a move. The only rationale presented is
WP:UE but no explanation is given how it applies here. Apparently some editors are unaware "commune" is an English-language word.
AusLondonder (
talk)
14:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)reply
The request was not made on the basis of
WP:UE, but on procedural ground and it was placed in the section "Requests to revert undiscussed moves". Your move was undiscussed and you were aware that it is controversial.
77.179.131.232 (
talk)
18:18, 2 November 2017 (UTC)reply
User:AusLondonder Then stop doing it. Yes, you restored a title, but you did it after it was stable for several months. And you did it while the move back was discussed. You circumvented the move discussion. You ignored the text of the move tag: "Do not move the page until the discussion has reached consensus for the change and is closed."
77.180.191.133 (
talk)
22:49, 2 November 2017 (UTC)reply
12 years vs a few months (after a move by a SPA). My view is the original title was the stable version. This discussion will decide. Concerns had been raised about sockpuppetry and circumvention of a global ban, and our policy is to revert edits by banned users.
AusLondonder (
talk)
03:05, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Oppose. Another instance of
WP:UE being misinterpreted. It does not say or mean that we should translate absolutely everything. "Communes" as used in French-speaking countries is not generally translated in English-language sources produced in English-speaking countries. Its meaning is well understood everywhere. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
12:51, 2 November 2017 (UTC)reply
User:Necrothesp : did you bother to check the sources before spreading your allegations of "
WP:UE being misinterpreted"?
It is a fact that when writing in English foreign organisations tend to assume they have to translate everything for the good of us "ignorant" English-speakers (ironically, UE tends to be cited far more by editors whose native language isn't English!). They don't and we don't. Incidentally, re the language of Luxembourg, to quote from our article: "French is the preferred language of the government. Official legislation must be conducted in French." --
Necrothesp (
talk)
11:51, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
User:Necrothesp Claiming facts without giving sources does not give your points much credibility. Quoting WP on language preferrence of the government does not help either: There is no WP:UsePreferredGovLanguage. The population also uses German and Luxembourgish. And when you invoke the Gov for French, why not for English? This is the English Wikipedia, not the French one.
WP:ENGLISH: "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources". Do you claim public.lu is not a reliable source?
77.180.172.226 (
talk)
19:11, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
Exactly. We use the name that is commonest in reliable English-language sources. These are generally sources from English-speaking countries written by people whose native language is English. Not sources from non-English-speaking countries written by people who native language is something else. All sorts of errors and misconceptions about English usage tend to creep into the latter. And one of those is that everything must be translated. My quote from our article about the preferred government language, incidentally, was merely intended to refute your claim that Luxembourg was not a French-speaking country. Overwhelmingly it is seen as such, even by its own government. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
19:53, 3 November 2017 (UTC)reply
"These are generally sources from English-speaking countries" - hear, hear. Any source for that claim? Re "My quote from our article about the preferred government language, incidentally, was merely intended to refute your claim that Luxembourg was not a French-speaking country. Overwhelmingly it is seen as such, even by its own government." - Any proof for that? The constitution does not say so. Even the government does not say so. The national language indeed is a Germanic one.
85.181.154.85 (
talk)
17:44, 4 November 2017 (UTC)reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a
move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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