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Please see Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid and Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid/draft version. Thank you. --NYScholar 12:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The word "merged" isn't quite right; see my editorial interpolation in the editing mode in this article. What I have in mind is cross-linking the two articles, this one and the "draft" of the article on the book, via a cross-ref. supplied in the section on "Critical reactions and commentaries" in the main article on the book (both long version and "draft" version have that section, but the "draft" version has the material moved from it to this article "Commentary...." --NYScholar 13:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
In the past, in the archive talk pages of the article Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, several editors have expressed concern that this kind of structure leads to increasing adding on of examples; notice that there are already a lot of them; there is a sort of balance if one considers that the first two book reviews do contain negative comments on the book. It is not advisable to continue tacking on commentary upon commentary (tit for tat, e.g.); one needs to evaluate the sources' value (credibility, reliability, notability, representativeness, etc.) and now to scrutinize what is included with an eye for neutral presentation and conciseness. There are editors who have expressed a desire to restructure this part of the article more topically; that could be problematic because it would probably result in trying to find similiarities among what in at least some cases are rather idiosyncratic comments on the book. To do that would be to distort what those commentaries state.
We provided the introductory section to define some prevailing recurrent topical patterns (recurrent themes, motifs) in the reviews and other commentaries on the book. Perhaps some editors could work on trying to decide on a possible more topical organization that would also maintain neutrality and yet reduce verbiage or numbers of examples. Just some thoughts. --NYScholar 17:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The article on the book should just speak about the book and any reviews that are not merely limited to condemning Carter. This article should be renamed from Commentary to Controversy as things like 14 people quitting is more than just commentary and words but political action.-- Wowaconia 06:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Any commentary from notable figures should not be deleted, if length gets to be a problem make a sub-page. So this sub-page would be renamed "Controversy..." and if the collection of commentary quotes here becomes too long than that could be made into another sub-page called "Commentary.." or two sub-pages one for notable individuals and one for notable groups. As long as its quotes and refs are made its not POV; its reporting. If there was an article called "Shia opinion of Saddam Hussein" it would not be POV even if the vast, vast majority said nothing but bad things. Quoting notable people and groups is not POV.-- Wowaconia 06:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I adamantly do not support renaming this main article as "Controversy...." That is not NPOV; more neutral language is necessary so as not to violate Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. The people who resigned wrote letters commenting on their resignations and on the book directly. note the use of "commentary" in para. 2 above. Obviously, this article (which is to be a "main article" (see the links) not a "sub page" cannot be called "Controversy." For a precedent see the history of the naming of the article Plame affair. Renaming any such article "Controversy" is asking for trouble. This article clearly states what it concerns:
Commentary on Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid (New York: Simon and Schuster, 2006) summarizes and illustrates some representative critical reaction to and commentary on this book by former president Jimmy Carter, which has been highly controversial.
--NYScholar 07:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
How about "Reactions to..."? AnonMoos 07:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
See sentence quoted above: "Reactions to" is not broad enough to include both ". . . critical reaction to and commentary on"; whereas "Commentary on. . . ." is broad enough to include both "reactions to and commentary on" and to include "criticism" and "book reviews"; I don't have a particular problem with "reactions" otherwise, but I think that it is too limiting a category, potentially would raise some kinds of "reactions" that are POV from various users who would drop in to post them, creating possibly vast problems, and that "commentary" is broader and more neutral. --NYScholar 23:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I generally support the idea of moving some of the content out from the parent article in to one or more articles for readability purposes. I have a concern with this version because it lacks Carter's response, which is pretty relevant to this information. The proposed version would also leave a much longer response than description of criticism in the main article, which doesn't seem like a very logical layout to me. Just my two cents. If we included Carter's response here, I don't know if that would require renaming the article to something more appropriate. -- YoYoDa1 19:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Added a cross-link to "Carter's response to criticism of the book"; see the article. Thanks. --NYScholar 23:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid#Consensus reached?. --NYScholar 23:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
See updates at Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid/draft version#Requested_move. --NYScholar 15:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I created a sample Wikiquote page (for purposes of illustration) in the event that the consensus reached is rather to have a short page or section re: "Critical reactions and commentaries on the book" in the longer article Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid and to add a Wikiquotes template tag to it. Then there could just be a paragraph of introduction (as in the first paragraph of that section) w/ such a tagged template to Wikiquote. The format of that Wikiquote page needs more work, but that is an illustration of its potential usefulness in resolving some of the arguments about the quotations alluded to in the talk pages of the main long (too-long?) article, where people complain of a so-called "quotefarm".
--NYScholar 22:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
[1] -- Shamir1 01:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's the NYT pdf link to the letter: "Letter" (PDF). (79.4 KiB). --NYScholar 02:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The members of the Board of Councilors of the Carter Center who resigned according to that letter are: Alan Abrams, Steve Berman, Michael Coles, Jon Golden, Doug Hertz, Barbara Babbit Kaufman, Liane Levetan, Jeff Levy, Leon Novak, Ambassador William B. Schwartz Jr., William B. Schwartz III, Steve Selig, Cathey Steinberg, Gail Solomon.
One more to make fifteen is Kenneth W. Stein. --NYScholar 02:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed the photo of the critic w/ the caption quoting his criticism; not in keeping with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view; the privileging of that critic's criticism through linkage of his image and caption is POV editing; removal of this image was already discussed in archived talk page of main article from which this "Commentary" has been split off. See the talk pages before adding content to this and related articles. There are various tags on the article indicating the controversial nature of the subject and the reason for increased vigilance about neutrality and avoidance of POV editing throughout articles about this subject. --NYScholar 13:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
[moved from the article Palestine Peace Not Apartheid by anonymous IP; re-copied for accuracy; the anon IP omitted my reply. --NYScholar 10:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)]
An anon IP user changed what was a correct spelling to an incorrect word. The word intended is "bases," the plural form of the word "basis." See Basis definition. "Bases" is not a typographical error; it is the word that I intend to use in that sentence (Dugard in "Academics"). --NYScholar 02:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Paul Findley, [3] -- 64.230.121.192 18:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I just added this source in bibliographical format to the main article Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. I had already moved the anon IP user's comment here, but realized later that the user probably intended people to consider adding the source to the appropriate sec. of the references list, which I did. Hope that's okay. --NYScholar 20:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Added in Lipstadts accusation of "soft-core denial" against Carter. Not sure why Lipstadt isnt listed as an academic/journalist critic already.—Preceding unsigned comment added by DJSemtex ( talk • contribs) 15:50, February 10, 2007 (UTC)
Please See previous comments on the page of the main article and please sign and date comments. If you are a new user, please consult Wikipedia guidelines, including talk page header links. If you do add material, you need to do so in a manner consistent with the hard work on citations formatting that others preceding you have done. The format needs to be consistent. Do not just toss in external links and unclear citations. Authors, titles, publications, dates of publication, and dated accessed are necessary in notes format. All that material re: Lipstadt's quotation is already provided in Wikiquote. Please read it. And please sign your comments with four tildes in Wikipedia format. (See talkheader.) Thank you. --NYScholar 08:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Despite my own sense that the material is already covered well in Wikiquote, I've added some development on Lipstadt to the article as economically as I could, giving full citations to the sources in the prevailing format for this article. --NYScholar 14:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
As tagged above (tag "Controversial"): "This is a controversial topic, which may be under dispute. Please read this talk page [including archived talk pages] and discuss substantial changes here before making them. Make sure you supply full citations when adding information to highly controversial articles." --NYScholar 15:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. ( Personal attack removed) --NYScholar 13:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
By 69.229.8.34. Warning to this user. You will be blocked if you persist in this behavior. --NYScholar 08:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
NYScholar, why did you delete my quote of Shulamit Aloni arguing that Israel has "apartheid"? [4] It supports Yossi Beilin's acknowledgement that Israelis themselves use that kind of criticism. This is an important issue, because Americans were accusing Carter of anti-Semitism by using the word "apartheid". This shows that even notable Israelis like Aloni, a former Knesset member, use the word "apartheid" themselves to describe Israeli policies, just as Carter does. Nbauman 05:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't belong elaborated in this article. If you want to discuss it in detail, put it in the cross-linked article on her. This article is on the book. Read the citation in the footnote. The source is cited. There is a link to Yossi Beilin and to Shulamit Aloni in the citations to their articles; people can read what Aloni thinks in more detail in her own article. The point about Israelis' agreeing w/ some aspects of Carter's pov is already in the summary paragraph toward the top of page. Please scroll up; note to her work is there too I think. (I thought I added it in response to your earlier comments.) I'll check again later. The point was already made quite some time ago. Your addition to this is not new. This article is about selected representative views; every single example is not going to be explored in detail. It's enough to cite them in notes. People can read the source article for such detailed explanations. --NYScholar 12:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
[moved from my personal talk page. --NYScholar 06:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)] Hi, this is vital but missing from Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. Please take the time to add the bulk of the op-ed to the article, or let me know if you can't. Thank you. -- Shamir1 03:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Moved here for discussion as to whether or not this personal blog post is citable given Wikipedia:Reliable sources in an article pertaining to a living person;: WP:BLP and Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles:
<<
Martin Peretz, editor-in-chief of The New Republic, includes a short review in his personal blog, stating:
And it's not just that he admired Hafez Assad, admired him more than any other poltical leader--Carter called him a "statesman"-- in the region. Or that he always had good words to say about Arafat. Or that he now has good words to say about Hamas. He almost never has a sympathetic or empathetic word to say about the Jewish state... But if anybody else is killed in the area it is the fault of the Israelis. Even the suicide bombers are the fault of the Israelis. And the arms smugglers. Plus the rocket wielders... It shows just how silly he is ... and malicious. And ignorant, since it also proves that he knows next to nothing about what apartheid was like in South Africa. [1]
>>
It seems to me that the person cited (Peretz) is a "notable" source; but if he were writing a review that could appear in a peer-reviewed publication (his own-- The New Republic)--why is it in a personal blog (posted on the website of the journal due to his being its editor in chief) and not a published bonafide book review? One may want to restore this after further discussion and a convincing rationale for its inclusion. The description of Carter as being personally "silly" and "malicious" and "ignorant", for example, are problematic, given WP:BLP. They really seem to amount to a kind of name-calling and are not backed up by the kind of development needed in a published book review in a peer-reviewed journal. They are his personal views (POV). Does his "notability" overcome the personal blog placement of the piece? --NYScholar 08:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
[moved from my talk page; concerns the insertion of the word "liberal" before a journal title in this article. Belongs in talk page of this article. Please do not post editorial differences about the article in my personal talk page. The discussion of such issues of editing belong here. This is a matter relating to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and not to WP:AGF. It is clearly a violation of NPOV to add such extraneous POV descriptions; the journal has an article on it in Wikipedia; the link to the Wiki article suffices; see editing history, where I indicated that already. --NYScholar 06:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello NYScholar. I encourage you to assume good faith and note that the identification of Haaretz as liberal is not POV, but fact. It has long favored Israel's Labour Party (Israel), publishes opinion pieces which are almost exclusively from a left-wing perspective, but above all, they identify their political allegiance as liberal. Even their stance on American politics is liberal. The edit is not POV (or even a big deal) but simply a description of the newspaper's self-proclaimed political affiliation. Perhaps you may also want to see here, here, [5], or here. Again, they proclaim themselves as liberal. -- Shamir1 06:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Anyone in favor of listing Academics first in the "Selected positive/negative reactions" section because
:1. Naturally its alphabetical :2. Academics employ great depth and a high standard of objectivity :3. It shouldn't take more than a few minutes. :4. Academics are far less prone to sensationalize.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.233.91.107 ( talk) 00:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
What a great idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.236.49.78 ( talk • contribs) 16:12, March 16, 2007 (UTC)
But back to this article: The current format is simply an invitation to pile on journalist after journalist and only god knows what their credentials are. Look at the news readers on television that masquerade as journalists. The only Journalist I have seen recently is Peter Jennings and he is dead and so is journalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.233.91.247 ( talk) 01:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC).
For starters, "Just prior to the November 2006 United States mid-term election" is not appropriate. What do general elections, at any time, have to do with commentary on the book? That statement makes it seem as if the Democratic Chairman and House Minority Leader's comments are not sincere. If not that, I do not know what it is inferring, but it is simply not relevant at all.
As for Michael Oren's remarks, it can be seen here or here. His remark can be heard at 24:10. In regards to his review, it is entitled "Jimmy Carter's Religious Problem". That is why each of the "religious problems" were written.
Irshad Manji's review-- It took me a long time to appropriately summarize each of her points, and I put a lot of thought into it. I dont see that with the summary of now, nor do I think that the review was understood. Almost all of Manji's questions and tidbits about Israel are ones that tie up her conclusion: "The better question might be: who's willing to hear what they don't want to hear?" They almost all cover the freedom of expression in Israel and Israel's willingness to listen to pro-Arab and/or anti-Israel politics. Obviously I was not going to go through each of those questions and tidbits, so I (a) wrote the first one as an example, and (b) included "as Manji exemplifies Israel is." That sums it up, and is a much better representation of Manji's thesis. -- Shamir1 02:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
In an opinion piece in The Australian, Irshad Manji states, "To be sure, I've long admired the former US president. In my book The Trouble with Islam Today I cite him as an example of how religion can be invoked to tap the best of humanity." Beginning with "In a state practising apartheid, would Arab Muslim legislators wield veto power over anything?", Manji writes a series of questions and facts that attempt to refute the "absurd" idea of apartheid by Israel. She maintains that certain "contradictions of the Israeli state should be exposed, discussed, even pilloried. And they are: openly as well as often;" however, she finds that the book is "deciding whose camp is the paragon of vice or virtue" which she sees "little point in." "The better question might be: who's willing to hear what they don't want to hear?", as Manji exemplifies Israel is. [1]
It needs further re-writing. I'll find my re-written version and put it in this talk page for comparison. Other editors need to read the article and to see the problems. E.g. "absurd" is not the author's word; it's the caption in the article heading (provided by an editor of the newspaper); your presentation makes it seem as if it is her word. Your addition "as Manji exemplifies Israel is" is extremely POV and not accurate. She does not necessarily say that. If she meant that, she would come right out and say that. That is your interpretation of her rhetorical questions and rhetorical answers. Your sentence ending "she sees 'little point in.'" is awkward (ending in a preposition) and misleading; she does not say that "she finds that the book is 'deciding whose camp is the paragon of vice or virtue'"; again, that is your interpretation. [Her point seems to be that there is plenty of "vice" to go around in all "camps." Read the full quotation in the passage as given below and re-read the article where she criticizes the Palestinians--which you omit, leading (in part) to your POV presentation.] You need to do less summary and more presentation of what she actually says, without distorting what she says. You are adding your own interpretations in a summary, which violates Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. The article is an "opinion piece"; you cannot take over her "opinion" and still present "neutral point of view." This is not a fair presentation of what she says. I found your paragraph very confusing and misleading (after I read the original article). It is not an accurate or neutral presentation of her views. --NYScholar 05:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is the passage that I wrote after reading who the author is (the Wikipedia linked article on her) and the "opinion piece" that you gave as the source:
In an opinion piece in The Australian, Canadian feminist Muslim "refusenik," author, journalist, and activist Irshad Manji writes:
It's precisely because I embrace intellectual pluralism that I respectfully challenge Jimmy Carter's recent critique of Israel as an apartheid state. To be sure, I've long admired the former US president. In my book The Trouble with Islam Today I cite him as an example of how religion can be invoked to tap the best of humanity. In no small measure, it was Carter's appreciation of spiritual values that brought together Israeli prime minister Menachem Begin and Egyptian president Anwar Sadat, compelling these former foes to clasp hands over a peace deal.... Which is why Carter's new book [Palestine Peace Not Apartheid] disappoints so many of us who champion co-existence.... [T]he book argues that Israel's conduct towards Palestinians mimics South Africa's long-time demonisation of blacks. Of course, certain Israeli politicians have spewed venom at Palestinians, as have some Arab leaders towards Jews, but Israel is far more complex - and diverse - than slogans about the occupation would suggest.... [S]ome people still need to be told that Arab "freedoms" don't compare to those of Israel.... The Holy Land is gut-wrenching and complicated. As much as I applaud Israel's efforts to foster pluralism, I condemn its illegal Jewish settlements and less visible crimes such as the diversion of water away from Palestinian towns. These contradictions of the Israeli state should be exposed, discussed, even pilloried. And they are: openly as well as often. So there's little point in deciding whose camp is the paragon of vice or virtue. The better question might be: who's willing to hear what they don't want to hear? That's the test of whether a country is more than black or white. [2]
The author's sentence "[S]ome people still need to be told that Arab "freedoms" don't compare to those of Israel...." sums up all of those rhetorical questions and "facts" that you refer to. It is not necessary or permissible to quote them in a POV manner; the full context that I give in the re-written passage illustrates how misleading your presentation is/was. --NYScholar 05:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, I originally added more information about who the author is because she is not particularly "notable"; her name is not recognizable by most readers and they need to know why she is notable (worthy of inclusion). Everyone and his brother or sister who has something to say about this book is not worthy of inclusion in this article. The person has to have some notability to be included as a "commentator" on this book. Why is this person's "opinion" worthy of inclusion? What is her authority as a media commentator on a book on this subject ( Israel-Palestinian conflict)? In your putting back your initial paragraph, you omitted all description of who she is. Why include her at all? --NYScholar 05:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Unless a better more neutral presentation of this author's "opinion" can be developed, it should be omitted entirely. The presentation by Shamir is not written in a neutral way. It presents his (the editor's) POV, an interpretation, not what the opinion-writer says. It appears to agree with the opinion-writer, which violates neutral point of view. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV. --NYScholar 06:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Having re-read the "opinion piece" quotation that I include in the passage, I do not think that it is entirely clear what she is trying to say (especially her last sentence, which is highly ambiguous and not clear). The earlier presentation (by Shamir) interprets what she means, but I do not think that that interpretation of her sentences is convincing. I do not think that this "opinion piece" by this particular author is necessarily worthy of inclusion in this encyclopedia article. One might add a brief quotation from it to the Wikiquote page on the book (perhaps). But one would need to be careful not to take what she says out of context in presenting the quotations. Notice how much of what she says is taken out of context of her full remarks in Shamir's presentation. See the difference between the first sentence that I quote from her "opinion piece" and the beginning of Shamir's paragraph presentation. Citing one rhetorical question does not make clear what her point is. The sentence that I included summarized all her rhetorical questions without having to quote any of them. --NYScholar 06:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I do like your suggestions and your explanations. However, there is no ambiguity with Manji's last sentence. She is writing these like about the Israeli High Court overturning rulings in favor of Arabs, Arab political voices, anti-Israel work being translated into Hebrew, military officials going public with criticism of government, a Hebrew newspaper running an article by an Arab Israeli about why the Zionist adventure has been a total failure... I do want to base it on your suggestions, as well as keeping the conclusion. -- Shamir1 09:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
[Revised heading back to original heading posted by original user creating it, which a later user changed to serve his own POV interest. Consensus on this order (first positive, then negative, then Carter's response to criticism) is to keep it. See discussion below and editing summary in editing history. --NYScholar 20:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)]
I think this is standard procedure. I realize it's somewhat arbitrary, but I think to put the negative first appears more POV, especially since this is a controversial book written by a living author. Do other people have thoughts on this? Organ123 18:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else have thoughts on this? If not, I'm going to direct my energies elsewhere. Organ123 00:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The order of the sections is standard practice in articles about books. The citations all are established in that order. The section on Carter's response to negative criticism follows the section on negative commentary with the citations in logical order, with clearcut transitions. The user who reversed the organization (see comments that the user put in editing history) clearly shows POV/bias, even in his/her description in the editing summary (editing history), where s/he states that the rationale for the article is to develop negative views of the book. The rationale for this article is not to provide the "negative" criticism of the book; it is to provide what Wikipedia defines in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV on both positive and negative commentary on the book and Carter's responses to the commentary. There has been both positive and negative commentary on the book. See also the Wikiquote, linked in the article. The current organization is proper and the previous editor's attempt to change it introduced errors in citations and illogic. There does not need to be a "guideline" for having "positive" precede "negative"; generally, that is called "fair play," and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view permits fairness in treating a book, especially one written by a living person, given WP:BLP. The purpose of this article is not to provide negative criticism of the book more than positive criticism of the book, or vice versa; it is to provide a full account of representative commentary on the book, and it does that. If a user has not got the patience, due to his or her own biases, to read the whole article, that is the user's problem. If he or she wants to read only the negative commentary, he or she can click on the table of contents (which shows all the sections) and read what he or she wants. He or she has no basis in Wikipedia guidelines and policies for changing the organization of the article to suit his or her own personal biases to highlight the negative and to hope that readers will not read the positive (in keeping with his/her own impatience as a reader). The guidelines and policies are in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Manual of Style, Wikipedia:Citations, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Attribution, WP:POV, Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles, and WP:BLP, including WP:BLP#Public figures, and WP:NOR. If one needs to know the guidelines, read those articles in Wikipedia and visit the links that they provide. There is no reason to ask the question here; the answers are in the linked articles. --NYScholar 01:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
An article called Commentary on Palestine Peace Not Apartheid is not meant to be a "counterpoint" to an article called Jimmy Carter. That is not a valid argument to put the negative comments first. Should "Commentary on The Case For Israel" be counterpoint to the "Alan Dershowitz" article? NYScholar is correct that Andyvphil's POV motivation was revealed in his first edit summary for this topic. I think NYScholar's case is reasonable enough, and the arguments for changing the previous consensus to put the negative first are not convincing. Organ123 16:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Organ123; Andyvphil is engaging in POV editing violating Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, WP:BLP, and other clearcut Wikipedia policies against making substantive changes to articles without consensus on talk page. Two editors now oppose what he is trying to do. He is engaging in reverting the longstanding order of the article, disrupting its coherence and citations format and following only his own POV biases in doing so. His changes have no consensus and he reverted to them contrary to the objections on this talk page to his making them. [Note: Andyvphil's own editing summary directly contradicts what Organ123 has posted; Organ123 says that my "case" for the original (first positive, then negative, then Carter's response to criticism) is "reasonable enough" and that, in contrast, Andyvphil's "arguments for changing the previous consensus [that is, the original order of having the positive commentary first, then the negative] to put the negative first [as Andyvphil has done now twice] are not convincing." [Being as generous as possible, to give him some benefit of the strong doubt both Organ123 and I feel about Andyvphil's editing motives, and to assume WP:AGF:] In his obviously-self-interested POV editing zeal, Andyvphil may have actually misinterpreted what Organ123 has said; s/he needs to reread both of our (Organ123's and my) negative reactions to his POV editing in this talk page and in the editing summary history comments. S/he needs to stop these reversions to his/her own idiosyncratic POV. He/she violates the guidelines and policies that I have already listed.] --NYScholar 20:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There are five archives relating to these two articles in Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid, many of which were developed before the split. The user does not know what he is talking about and has clearly not read the five archives of discussion about the article(s) on this book. This current talk page began after the split; to see the entire history of these articles, one needs to go to Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid and its archived talk pages. --NYScholar 09:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
No neutral Wikipedia user/editor who has commented in this talk page or in Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid agrees with Andyvphil's POV-pushing claim that "Negative reactions should be listed first" in either Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid or Commentary on Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. No one agrees with his obviously-non-neutral POV expressed in his summaries in the editing history and on this talk page of this article, or in the talk page of Jimmy Carter (where he clearly has a vested POV), which is also a separate article from this one (see talk pages and archives of all three articles). Wikipedia does not exist in a literary-critical vacuum. (Book reviews and other commentaries on books are acts of literary criticism. Both fiction and non-fiction are kinds (genres) of literature; both genres are reviewed in publications like The New York Times Book Review, The New York Review of Books, The Times Literary Supplement, The London Review of Books.) Wikipedia does not invent conventions of how one comments on books and or invent conventions of how one writes book reviews; they preexist Wikipedia; Wikipedia guidelines and policies about comments on books written by living persons--see WP:BLP--and Wikipedia:Citations--draw upon already-established book review protocols and conventions. It is customary (conventional) for secondary summaries of "criticism" (literary criticism) of books (including summary accounts of book reviews and other "commentaries" on books) to comment on the positive reactions to a book and then to comment on more "critical" or "negative" comments on a book. Like the "presumption of innocence" in the American justice system, that is how neutral treatment of a book conventionally works. The obvious POV evaluations (as with "idiotic" above) are clearly not within Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles; for actual Wikipedia guidelines and policies, see the tagged notices and the material linked there at the top of this page. Andyvphil is clearly pushing his own negative POV on this subject (the commentary on a book), in relation to Palestine Peace Not Apartheid; see also Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid and its archived talk pages for concerns about achieving Wikipedia:Neutral point of view in the editing of these two related and cross-linked articles. The tag re: "neutrality" on this article was removed weeks ago, after the POV kinds of editing that Andyvphil continually engages in about the commentary on this book were corrected. He obviously intends to add his own POV to this article and is not intending to improve the article, and his statement of his intention clearly violates Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles (which begins: "Controversial articles, by their very nature, require far greater care to achieve a neutral point of view."); Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, WP:POV, and Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Citations, all of which the current version of this article follows (prior and after his Wikipedia:Disruption of it). --NYScholar 20:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
As of this writing, as I calculate, the "negative reactions" section is 5377 words, whereas the "positive reactions" section is 2265 words. I don't think that gives a balanced presentation of the critical reaction. There is no reliable source stating that in the world at large, there is over twice as much negative commentary as positive about this book; and given the controversial nature of the subject, I don't think this article should take that position, however indirectly. So I propose trimming the negative reactions section, or perhaps increasing the positive reactions section. Organ123 22:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
In the past, in the archive talk pages of the article Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, several editors have expressed concern that this kind of structure [see the referent] leads to increasing adding on of examples; notice that there are already a lot of them; there is a sort of balance if one considers that the first two book reviews do contain negative comments on the book. It is not advisable to continue tacking on commentary upon commentary (tit for tat, e.g.); one needs to evaluate the sources' value (credibility, reliability, notability, representativeness, etc.) and now to scrutinize what is included with an eye for neutral presentation and conciseness. There are editors who have expressed a desire to restructure this part of the article more topically; that could be problematic because it would probably result in trying to find similiarities among what in at least some cases are rather idiosyncratic comments on the book. To do that would be to distort what those commentaries state.
We [another editor created it; I and others edited it] provided the introductory section to define some prevailing recurrent topical patterns (recurrent themes, motifs) in the reviews and other commentaries on the book. Perhaps some editors could work on trying to decide on a possible more topical organization that would also maintain neutrality and yet reduce verbiage or numbers of examples. Just some thoughts. --NYScholar 17:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
--NYScholar 08:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that instead of the current sections the article should have been divided in two sections distinguishing "positive aspects highlighted by sources" and "negative aspects highlighted by sources". Many people, such as me, thinks that to emphasize the fact that the Palestinian state must be a real state is positive but that the metaphore used by Carter si rather unfortunate because to analize a unique and complex subject is nothing worst that to compare with another unique and complex subject. The current structure of sections favourish the visibility of both israel bashers and israel defenders geting rid of the many, many people who have mixed opinions. I know this structure is imposible but would be better than the current.
Regarding the size of the current sections, I do not think is so relevant since the nature and quality of the comments will influence more the reader than the actual size. However the truth is that this book has had amongst the people wishing a fair peace in Middle East a bad reception since do not add anything and starts a useless debate about words. So the article reflects a rather better opinion about the book that the perception I have about how was received by the mainstream of diplomacy and political journalism (ruling out propagandist from both sides who probably started desecrating or enhancing the book without reading it). But this is only my perception so is completely subjective.-- Igor21 09:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
For the full editing history of this article, one has to go to the current and archived talk pages in Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid (see espec. the administrator's permanent saved discussion of the reasons for splitting the too-long article on the book into an article on the book and an article on the commentary on the book: Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid#Requested move. --NYScholar 08:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is there so much? (5959 words actually)When I cut and pasted the negative commentary section into microsoft works, it took up nine pages. The positive section amounts to 2656 words if i remember, ( 5 pages), and this is way too much. Each section should be about 2 pages or less. Lets be practical people. Common seriously, this is ludicrous. Reading this article is seriously WORSE than reading the cardholders credit card agreement fine print booklet you receive when you get your statement. If you don't believe me try it. Read your credit card fine print agreement, and then read this article. Which is preferable? I think the credit card fine print is much more interesting. Anonymous 69.108.67.7 22:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Gandhi also expressed his dislike for partition during the late 1930s in response to the topic of the partition of Palestine to create Israel. He stated in Harijan on 26 October 1938:
Several letters have been received by me asking me to declare my views about the Arab-Jew question in Palestine and persecution of the Jews in Germany. It is not without hesitation that I venture to offer my views on this very difficult question. My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity [...] But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood? Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct.[77][78] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.22.193 ( talk) 01:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
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Please see Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid and Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid/draft version. Thank you. --NYScholar 12:48, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The word "merged" isn't quite right; see my editorial interpolation in the editing mode in this article. What I have in mind is cross-linking the two articles, this one and the "draft" of the article on the book, via a cross-ref. supplied in the section on "Critical reactions and commentaries" in the main article on the book (both long version and "draft" version have that section, but the "draft" version has the material moved from it to this article "Commentary...." --NYScholar 13:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
In the past, in the archive talk pages of the article Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, several editors have expressed concern that this kind of structure leads to increasing adding on of examples; notice that there are already a lot of them; there is a sort of balance if one considers that the first two book reviews do contain negative comments on the book. It is not advisable to continue tacking on commentary upon commentary (tit for tat, e.g.); one needs to evaluate the sources' value (credibility, reliability, notability, representativeness, etc.) and now to scrutinize what is included with an eye for neutral presentation and conciseness. There are editors who have expressed a desire to restructure this part of the article more topically; that could be problematic because it would probably result in trying to find similiarities among what in at least some cases are rather idiosyncratic comments on the book. To do that would be to distort what those commentaries state.
We provided the introductory section to define some prevailing recurrent topical patterns (recurrent themes, motifs) in the reviews and other commentaries on the book. Perhaps some editors could work on trying to decide on a possible more topical organization that would also maintain neutrality and yet reduce verbiage or numbers of examples. Just some thoughts. --NYScholar 17:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The article on the book should just speak about the book and any reviews that are not merely limited to condemning Carter. This article should be renamed from Commentary to Controversy as things like 14 people quitting is more than just commentary and words but political action.-- Wowaconia 06:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Any commentary from notable figures should not be deleted, if length gets to be a problem make a sub-page. So this sub-page would be renamed "Controversy..." and if the collection of commentary quotes here becomes too long than that could be made into another sub-page called "Commentary.." or two sub-pages one for notable individuals and one for notable groups. As long as its quotes and refs are made its not POV; its reporting. If there was an article called "Shia opinion of Saddam Hussein" it would not be POV even if the vast, vast majority said nothing but bad things. Quoting notable people and groups is not POV.-- Wowaconia 06:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I adamantly do not support renaming this main article as "Controversy...." That is not NPOV; more neutral language is necessary so as not to violate Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. The people who resigned wrote letters commenting on their resignations and on the book directly. note the use of "commentary" in para. 2 above. Obviously, this article (which is to be a "main article" (see the links) not a "sub page" cannot be called "Controversy." For a precedent see the history of the naming of the article Plame affair. Renaming any such article "Controversy" is asking for trouble. This article clearly states what it concerns:
Commentary on Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid (New York: Simon and Schuster, 2006) summarizes and illustrates some representative critical reaction to and commentary on this book by former president Jimmy Carter, which has been highly controversial.
--NYScholar 07:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
How about "Reactions to..."? AnonMoos 07:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
See sentence quoted above: "Reactions to" is not broad enough to include both ". . . critical reaction to and commentary on"; whereas "Commentary on. . . ." is broad enough to include both "reactions to and commentary on" and to include "criticism" and "book reviews"; I don't have a particular problem with "reactions" otherwise, but I think that it is too limiting a category, potentially would raise some kinds of "reactions" that are POV from various users who would drop in to post them, creating possibly vast problems, and that "commentary" is broader and more neutral. --NYScholar 23:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I generally support the idea of moving some of the content out from the parent article in to one or more articles for readability purposes. I have a concern with this version because it lacks Carter's response, which is pretty relevant to this information. The proposed version would also leave a much longer response than description of criticism in the main article, which doesn't seem like a very logical layout to me. Just my two cents. If we included Carter's response here, I don't know if that would require renaming the article to something more appropriate. -- YoYoDa1 19:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Added a cross-link to "Carter's response to criticism of the book"; see the article. Thanks. --NYScholar 23:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid#Consensus reached?. --NYScholar 23:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
See updates at Talk:Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid/draft version#Requested_move. --NYScholar 15:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I created a sample Wikiquote page (for purposes of illustration) in the event that the consensus reached is rather to have a short page or section re: "Critical reactions and commentaries on the book" in the longer article Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid and to add a Wikiquotes template tag to it. Then there could just be a paragraph of introduction (as in the first paragraph of that section) w/ such a tagged template to Wikiquote. The format of that Wikiquote page needs more work, but that is an illustration of its potential usefulness in resolving some of the arguments about the quotations alluded to in the talk pages of the main long (too-long?) article, where people complain of a so-called "quotefarm".
--NYScholar 22:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
[1] -- Shamir1 01:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's the NYT pdf link to the letter: "Letter" (PDF). (79.4 KiB). --NYScholar 02:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The members of the Board of Councilors of the Carter Center who resigned according to that letter are: Alan Abrams, Steve Berman, Michael Coles, Jon Golden, Doug Hertz, Barbara Babbit Kaufman, Liane Levetan, Jeff Levy, Leon Novak, Ambassador William B. Schwartz Jr., William B. Schwartz III, Steve Selig, Cathey Steinberg, Gail Solomon.
One more to make fifteen is Kenneth W. Stein. --NYScholar 02:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Removed the photo of the critic w/ the caption quoting his criticism; not in keeping with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view; the privileging of that critic's criticism through linkage of his image and caption is POV editing; removal of this image was already discussed in archived talk page of main article from which this "Commentary" has been split off. See the talk pages before adding content to this and related articles. There are various tags on the article indicating the controversial nature of the subject and the reason for increased vigilance about neutrality and avoidance of POV editing throughout articles about this subject. --NYScholar 13:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
[moved from the article Palestine Peace Not Apartheid by anonymous IP; re-copied for accuracy; the anon IP omitted my reply. --NYScholar 10:29, 16 February 2007 (UTC)]
An anon IP user changed what was a correct spelling to an incorrect word. The word intended is "bases," the plural form of the word "basis." See Basis definition. "Bases" is not a typographical error; it is the word that I intend to use in that sentence (Dugard in "Academics"). --NYScholar 02:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Paul Findley, [3] -- 64.230.121.192 18:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I just added this source in bibliographical format to the main article Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. I had already moved the anon IP user's comment here, but realized later that the user probably intended people to consider adding the source to the appropriate sec. of the references list, which I did. Hope that's okay. --NYScholar 20:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Added in Lipstadts accusation of "soft-core denial" against Carter. Not sure why Lipstadt isnt listed as an academic/journalist critic already.—Preceding unsigned comment added by DJSemtex ( talk • contribs) 15:50, February 10, 2007 (UTC)
Please See previous comments on the page of the main article and please sign and date comments. If you are a new user, please consult Wikipedia guidelines, including talk page header links. If you do add material, you need to do so in a manner consistent with the hard work on citations formatting that others preceding you have done. The format needs to be consistent. Do not just toss in external links and unclear citations. Authors, titles, publications, dates of publication, and dated accessed are necessary in notes format. All that material re: Lipstadt's quotation is already provided in Wikiquote. Please read it. And please sign your comments with four tildes in Wikipedia format. (See talkheader.) Thank you. --NYScholar 08:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Despite my own sense that the material is already covered well in Wikiquote, I've added some development on Lipstadt to the article as economically as I could, giving full citations to the sources in the prevailing format for this article. --NYScholar 14:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
As tagged above (tag "Controversial"): "This is a controversial topic, which may be under dispute. Please read this talk page [including archived talk pages] and discuss substantial changes here before making them. Make sure you supply full citations when adding information to highly controversial articles." --NYScholar 15:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. ( Personal attack removed) --NYScholar 13:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
By 69.229.8.34. Warning to this user. You will be blocked if you persist in this behavior. --NYScholar 08:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
NYScholar, why did you delete my quote of Shulamit Aloni arguing that Israel has "apartheid"? [4] It supports Yossi Beilin's acknowledgement that Israelis themselves use that kind of criticism. This is an important issue, because Americans were accusing Carter of anti-Semitism by using the word "apartheid". This shows that even notable Israelis like Aloni, a former Knesset member, use the word "apartheid" themselves to describe Israeli policies, just as Carter does. Nbauman 05:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't belong elaborated in this article. If you want to discuss it in detail, put it in the cross-linked article on her. This article is on the book. Read the citation in the footnote. The source is cited. There is a link to Yossi Beilin and to Shulamit Aloni in the citations to their articles; people can read what Aloni thinks in more detail in her own article. The point about Israelis' agreeing w/ some aspects of Carter's pov is already in the summary paragraph toward the top of page. Please scroll up; note to her work is there too I think. (I thought I added it in response to your earlier comments.) I'll check again later. The point was already made quite some time ago. Your addition to this is not new. This article is about selected representative views; every single example is not going to be explored in detail. It's enough to cite them in notes. People can read the source article for such detailed explanations. --NYScholar 12:41, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
[moved from my personal talk page. --NYScholar 06:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)] Hi, this is vital but missing from Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. Please take the time to add the bulk of the op-ed to the article, or let me know if you can't. Thank you. -- Shamir1 03:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Moved here for discussion as to whether or not this personal blog post is citable given Wikipedia:Reliable sources in an article pertaining to a living person;: WP:BLP and Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles:
<<
Martin Peretz, editor-in-chief of The New Republic, includes a short review in his personal blog, stating:
And it's not just that he admired Hafez Assad, admired him more than any other poltical leader--Carter called him a "statesman"-- in the region. Or that he always had good words to say about Arafat. Or that he now has good words to say about Hamas. He almost never has a sympathetic or empathetic word to say about the Jewish state... But if anybody else is killed in the area it is the fault of the Israelis. Even the suicide bombers are the fault of the Israelis. And the arms smugglers. Plus the rocket wielders... It shows just how silly he is ... and malicious. And ignorant, since it also proves that he knows next to nothing about what apartheid was like in South Africa. [1]
>>
It seems to me that the person cited (Peretz) is a "notable" source; but if he were writing a review that could appear in a peer-reviewed publication (his own-- The New Republic)--why is it in a personal blog (posted on the website of the journal due to his being its editor in chief) and not a published bonafide book review? One may want to restore this after further discussion and a convincing rationale for its inclusion. The description of Carter as being personally "silly" and "malicious" and "ignorant", for example, are problematic, given WP:BLP. They really seem to amount to a kind of name-calling and are not backed up by the kind of development needed in a published book review in a peer-reviewed journal. They are his personal views (POV). Does his "notability" overcome the personal blog placement of the piece? --NYScholar 08:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
[moved from my talk page; concerns the insertion of the word "liberal" before a journal title in this article. Belongs in talk page of this article. Please do not post editorial differences about the article in my personal talk page. The discussion of such issues of editing belong here. This is a matter relating to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and not to WP:AGF. It is clearly a violation of NPOV to add such extraneous POV descriptions; the journal has an article on it in Wikipedia; the link to the Wiki article suffices; see editing history, where I indicated that already. --NYScholar 06:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello NYScholar. I encourage you to assume good faith and note that the identification of Haaretz as liberal is not POV, but fact. It has long favored Israel's Labour Party (Israel), publishes opinion pieces which are almost exclusively from a left-wing perspective, but above all, they identify their political allegiance as liberal. Even their stance on American politics is liberal. The edit is not POV (or even a big deal) but simply a description of the newspaper's self-proclaimed political affiliation. Perhaps you may also want to see here, here, [5], or here. Again, they proclaim themselves as liberal. -- Shamir1 06:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Anyone in favor of listing Academics first in the "Selected positive/negative reactions" section because
:1. Naturally its alphabetical :2. Academics employ great depth and a high standard of objectivity :3. It shouldn't take more than a few minutes. :4. Academics are far less prone to sensationalize.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.233.91.107 ( talk) 00:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
What a great idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.236.49.78 ( talk • contribs) 16:12, March 16, 2007 (UTC)
But back to this article: The current format is simply an invitation to pile on journalist after journalist and only god knows what their credentials are. Look at the news readers on television that masquerade as journalists. The only Journalist I have seen recently is Peter Jennings and he is dead and so is journalism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.233.91.247 ( talk) 01:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC).
For starters, "Just prior to the November 2006 United States mid-term election" is not appropriate. What do general elections, at any time, have to do with commentary on the book? That statement makes it seem as if the Democratic Chairman and House Minority Leader's comments are not sincere. If not that, I do not know what it is inferring, but it is simply not relevant at all.
As for Michael Oren's remarks, it can be seen here or here. His remark can be heard at 24:10. In regards to his review, it is entitled "Jimmy Carter's Religious Problem". That is why each of the "religious problems" were written.
Irshad Manji's review-- It took me a long time to appropriately summarize each of her points, and I put a lot of thought into it. I dont see that with the summary of now, nor do I think that the review was understood. Almost all of Manji's questions and tidbits about Israel are ones that tie up her conclusion: "The better question might be: who's willing to hear what they don't want to hear?" They almost all cover the freedom of expression in Israel and Israel's willingness to listen to pro-Arab and/or anti-Israel politics. Obviously I was not going to go through each of those questions and tidbits, so I (a) wrote the first one as an example, and (b) included "as Manji exemplifies Israel is." That sums it up, and is a much better representation of Manji's thesis. -- Shamir1 02:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
In an opinion piece in The Australian, Irshad Manji states, "To be sure, I've long admired the former US president. In my book The Trouble with Islam Today I cite him as an example of how religion can be invoked to tap the best of humanity." Beginning with "In a state practising apartheid, would Arab Muslim legislators wield veto power over anything?", Manji writes a series of questions and facts that attempt to refute the "absurd" idea of apartheid by Israel. She maintains that certain "contradictions of the Israeli state should be exposed, discussed, even pilloried. And they are: openly as well as often;" however, she finds that the book is "deciding whose camp is the paragon of vice or virtue" which she sees "little point in." "The better question might be: who's willing to hear what they don't want to hear?", as Manji exemplifies Israel is. [1]
It needs further re-writing. I'll find my re-written version and put it in this talk page for comparison. Other editors need to read the article and to see the problems. E.g. "absurd" is not the author's word; it's the caption in the article heading (provided by an editor of the newspaper); your presentation makes it seem as if it is her word. Your addition "as Manji exemplifies Israel is" is extremely POV and not accurate. She does not necessarily say that. If she meant that, she would come right out and say that. That is your interpretation of her rhetorical questions and rhetorical answers. Your sentence ending "she sees 'little point in.'" is awkward (ending in a preposition) and misleading; she does not say that "she finds that the book is 'deciding whose camp is the paragon of vice or virtue'"; again, that is your interpretation. [Her point seems to be that there is plenty of "vice" to go around in all "camps." Read the full quotation in the passage as given below and re-read the article where she criticizes the Palestinians--which you omit, leading (in part) to your POV presentation.] You need to do less summary and more presentation of what she actually says, without distorting what she says. You are adding your own interpretations in a summary, which violates Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. The article is an "opinion piece"; you cannot take over her "opinion" and still present "neutral point of view." This is not a fair presentation of what she says. I found your paragraph very confusing and misleading (after I read the original article). It is not an accurate or neutral presentation of her views. --NYScholar 05:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Here is the passage that I wrote after reading who the author is (the Wikipedia linked article on her) and the "opinion piece" that you gave as the source:
In an opinion piece in The Australian, Canadian feminist Muslim "refusenik," author, journalist, and activist Irshad Manji writes:
It's precisely because I embrace intellectual pluralism that I respectfully challenge Jimmy Carter's recent critique of Israel as an apartheid state. To be sure, I've long admired the former US president. In my book The Trouble with Islam Today I cite him as an example of how religion can be invoked to tap the best of humanity. In no small measure, it was Carter's appreciation of spiritual values that brought together Israeli prime minister Menachem Begin and Egyptian president Anwar Sadat, compelling these former foes to clasp hands over a peace deal.... Which is why Carter's new book [Palestine Peace Not Apartheid] disappoints so many of us who champion co-existence.... [T]he book argues that Israel's conduct towards Palestinians mimics South Africa's long-time demonisation of blacks. Of course, certain Israeli politicians have spewed venom at Palestinians, as have some Arab leaders towards Jews, but Israel is far more complex - and diverse - than slogans about the occupation would suggest.... [S]ome people still need to be told that Arab "freedoms" don't compare to those of Israel.... The Holy Land is gut-wrenching and complicated. As much as I applaud Israel's efforts to foster pluralism, I condemn its illegal Jewish settlements and less visible crimes such as the diversion of water away from Palestinian towns. These contradictions of the Israeli state should be exposed, discussed, even pilloried. And they are: openly as well as often. So there's little point in deciding whose camp is the paragon of vice or virtue. The better question might be: who's willing to hear what they don't want to hear? That's the test of whether a country is more than black or white. [2]
The author's sentence "[S]ome people still need to be told that Arab "freedoms" don't compare to those of Israel...." sums up all of those rhetorical questions and "facts" that you refer to. It is not necessary or permissible to quote them in a POV manner; the full context that I give in the re-written passage illustrates how misleading your presentation is/was. --NYScholar 05:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, I originally added more information about who the author is because she is not particularly "notable"; her name is not recognizable by most readers and they need to know why she is notable (worthy of inclusion). Everyone and his brother or sister who has something to say about this book is not worthy of inclusion in this article. The person has to have some notability to be included as a "commentator" on this book. Why is this person's "opinion" worthy of inclusion? What is her authority as a media commentator on a book on this subject ( Israel-Palestinian conflict)? In your putting back your initial paragraph, you omitted all description of who she is. Why include her at all? --NYScholar 05:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Unless a better more neutral presentation of this author's "opinion" can be developed, it should be omitted entirely. The presentation by Shamir is not written in a neutral way. It presents his (the editor's) POV, an interpretation, not what the opinion-writer says. It appears to agree with the opinion-writer, which violates neutral point of view. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV. --NYScholar 06:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Having re-read the "opinion piece" quotation that I include in the passage, I do not think that it is entirely clear what she is trying to say (especially her last sentence, which is highly ambiguous and not clear). The earlier presentation (by Shamir) interprets what she means, but I do not think that that interpretation of her sentences is convincing. I do not think that this "opinion piece" by this particular author is necessarily worthy of inclusion in this encyclopedia article. One might add a brief quotation from it to the Wikiquote page on the book (perhaps). But one would need to be careful not to take what she says out of context in presenting the quotations. Notice how much of what she says is taken out of context of her full remarks in Shamir's presentation. See the difference between the first sentence that I quote from her "opinion piece" and the beginning of Shamir's paragraph presentation. Citing one rhetorical question does not make clear what her point is. The sentence that I included summarized all her rhetorical questions without having to quote any of them. --NYScholar 06:17, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I do like your suggestions and your explanations. However, there is no ambiguity with Manji's last sentence. She is writing these like about the Israeli High Court overturning rulings in favor of Arabs, Arab political voices, anti-Israel work being translated into Hebrew, military officials going public with criticism of government, a Hebrew newspaper running an article by an Arab Israeli about why the Zionist adventure has been a total failure... I do want to base it on your suggestions, as well as keeping the conclusion. -- Shamir1 09:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
[Revised heading back to original heading posted by original user creating it, which a later user changed to serve his own POV interest. Consensus on this order (first positive, then negative, then Carter's response to criticism) is to keep it. See discussion below and editing summary in editing history. --NYScholar 20:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)]
I think this is standard procedure. I realize it's somewhat arbitrary, but I think to put the negative first appears more POV, especially since this is a controversial book written by a living author. Do other people have thoughts on this? Organ123 18:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone else have thoughts on this? If not, I'm going to direct my energies elsewhere. Organ123 00:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The order of the sections is standard practice in articles about books. The citations all are established in that order. The section on Carter's response to negative criticism follows the section on negative commentary with the citations in logical order, with clearcut transitions. The user who reversed the organization (see comments that the user put in editing history) clearly shows POV/bias, even in his/her description in the editing summary (editing history), where s/he states that the rationale for the article is to develop negative views of the book. The rationale for this article is not to provide the "negative" criticism of the book; it is to provide what Wikipedia defines in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and WP:POV on both positive and negative commentary on the book and Carter's responses to the commentary. There has been both positive and negative commentary on the book. See also the Wikiquote, linked in the article. The current organization is proper and the previous editor's attempt to change it introduced errors in citations and illogic. There does not need to be a "guideline" for having "positive" precede "negative"; generally, that is called "fair play," and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view permits fairness in treating a book, especially one written by a living person, given WP:BLP. The purpose of this article is not to provide negative criticism of the book more than positive criticism of the book, or vice versa; it is to provide a full account of representative commentary on the book, and it does that. If a user has not got the patience, due to his or her own biases, to read the whole article, that is the user's problem. If he or she wants to read only the negative commentary, he or she can click on the table of contents (which shows all the sections) and read what he or she wants. He or she has no basis in Wikipedia guidelines and policies for changing the organization of the article to suit his or her own personal biases to highlight the negative and to hope that readers will not read the positive (in keeping with his/her own impatience as a reader). The guidelines and policies are in Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Manual of Style, Wikipedia:Citations, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Attribution, WP:POV, Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles, and WP:BLP, including WP:BLP#Public figures, and WP:NOR. If one needs to know the guidelines, read those articles in Wikipedia and visit the links that they provide. There is no reason to ask the question here; the answers are in the linked articles. --NYScholar 01:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
An article called Commentary on Palestine Peace Not Apartheid is not meant to be a "counterpoint" to an article called Jimmy Carter. That is not a valid argument to put the negative comments first. Should "Commentary on The Case For Israel" be counterpoint to the "Alan Dershowitz" article? NYScholar is correct that Andyvphil's POV motivation was revealed in his first edit summary for this topic. I think NYScholar's case is reasonable enough, and the arguments for changing the previous consensus to put the negative first are not convincing. Organ123 16:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Organ123; Andyvphil is engaging in POV editing violating Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, WP:BLP, and other clearcut Wikipedia policies against making substantive changes to articles without consensus on talk page. Two editors now oppose what he is trying to do. He is engaging in reverting the longstanding order of the article, disrupting its coherence and citations format and following only his own POV biases in doing so. His changes have no consensus and he reverted to them contrary to the objections on this talk page to his making them. [Note: Andyvphil's own editing summary directly contradicts what Organ123 has posted; Organ123 says that my "case" for the original (first positive, then negative, then Carter's response to criticism) is "reasonable enough" and that, in contrast, Andyvphil's "arguments for changing the previous consensus [that is, the original order of having the positive commentary first, then the negative] to put the negative first [as Andyvphil has done now twice] are not convincing." [Being as generous as possible, to give him some benefit of the strong doubt both Organ123 and I feel about Andyvphil's editing motives, and to assume WP:AGF:] In his obviously-self-interested POV editing zeal, Andyvphil may have actually misinterpreted what Organ123 has said; s/he needs to reread both of our (Organ123's and my) negative reactions to his POV editing in this talk page and in the editing summary history comments. S/he needs to stop these reversions to his/her own idiosyncratic POV. He/she violates the guidelines and policies that I have already listed.] --NYScholar 20:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There are five archives relating to these two articles in Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid, many of which were developed before the split. The user does not know what he is talking about and has clearly not read the five archives of discussion about the article(s) on this book. This current talk page began after the split; to see the entire history of these articles, one needs to go to Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid and its archived talk pages. --NYScholar 09:37, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
No neutral Wikipedia user/editor who has commented in this talk page or in Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid agrees with Andyvphil's POV-pushing claim that "Negative reactions should be listed first" in either Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid or Commentary on Palestine Peace Not Apartheid. No one agrees with his obviously-non-neutral POV expressed in his summaries in the editing history and on this talk page of this article, or in the talk page of Jimmy Carter (where he clearly has a vested POV), which is also a separate article from this one (see talk pages and archives of all three articles). Wikipedia does not exist in a literary-critical vacuum. (Book reviews and other commentaries on books are acts of literary criticism. Both fiction and non-fiction are kinds (genres) of literature; both genres are reviewed in publications like The New York Times Book Review, The New York Review of Books, The Times Literary Supplement, The London Review of Books.) Wikipedia does not invent conventions of how one comments on books and or invent conventions of how one writes book reviews; they preexist Wikipedia; Wikipedia guidelines and policies about comments on books written by living persons--see WP:BLP--and Wikipedia:Citations--draw upon already-established book review protocols and conventions. It is customary (conventional) for secondary summaries of "criticism" (literary criticism) of books (including summary accounts of book reviews and other "commentaries" on books) to comment on the positive reactions to a book and then to comment on more "critical" or "negative" comments on a book. Like the "presumption of innocence" in the American justice system, that is how neutral treatment of a book conventionally works. The obvious POV evaluations (as with "idiotic" above) are clearly not within Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles; for actual Wikipedia guidelines and policies, see the tagged notices and the material linked there at the top of this page. Andyvphil is clearly pushing his own negative POV on this subject (the commentary on a book), in relation to Palestine Peace Not Apartheid; see also Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid and its archived talk pages for concerns about achieving Wikipedia:Neutral point of view in the editing of these two related and cross-linked articles. The tag re: "neutrality" on this article was removed weeks ago, after the POV kinds of editing that Andyvphil continually engages in about the commentary on this book were corrected. He obviously intends to add his own POV to this article and is not intending to improve the article, and his statement of his intention clearly violates Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles (which begins: "Controversial articles, by their very nature, require far greater care to achieve a neutral point of view."); Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, WP:POV, and Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:Citations, all of which the current version of this article follows (prior and after his Wikipedia:Disruption of it). --NYScholar 20:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
As of this writing, as I calculate, the "negative reactions" section is 5377 words, whereas the "positive reactions" section is 2265 words. I don't think that gives a balanced presentation of the critical reaction. There is no reliable source stating that in the world at large, there is over twice as much negative commentary as positive about this book; and given the controversial nature of the subject, I don't think this article should take that position, however indirectly. So I propose trimming the negative reactions section, or perhaps increasing the positive reactions section. Organ123 22:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
In the past, in the archive talk pages of the article Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, several editors have expressed concern that this kind of structure [see the referent] leads to increasing adding on of examples; notice that there are already a lot of them; there is a sort of balance if one considers that the first two book reviews do contain negative comments on the book. It is not advisable to continue tacking on commentary upon commentary (tit for tat, e.g.); one needs to evaluate the sources' value (credibility, reliability, notability, representativeness, etc.) and now to scrutinize what is included with an eye for neutral presentation and conciseness. There are editors who have expressed a desire to restructure this part of the article more topically; that could be problematic because it would probably result in trying to find similiarities among what in at least some cases are rather idiosyncratic comments on the book. To do that would be to distort what those commentaries state.
We [another editor created it; I and others edited it] provided the introductory section to define some prevailing recurrent topical patterns (recurrent themes, motifs) in the reviews and other commentaries on the book. Perhaps some editors could work on trying to decide on a possible more topical organization that would also maintain neutrality and yet reduce verbiage or numbers of examples. Just some thoughts. --NYScholar 17:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
--NYScholar 08:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I think that instead of the current sections the article should have been divided in two sections distinguishing "positive aspects highlighted by sources" and "negative aspects highlighted by sources". Many people, such as me, thinks that to emphasize the fact that the Palestinian state must be a real state is positive but that the metaphore used by Carter si rather unfortunate because to analize a unique and complex subject is nothing worst that to compare with another unique and complex subject. The current structure of sections favourish the visibility of both israel bashers and israel defenders geting rid of the many, many people who have mixed opinions. I know this structure is imposible but would be better than the current.
Regarding the size of the current sections, I do not think is so relevant since the nature and quality of the comments will influence more the reader than the actual size. However the truth is that this book has had amongst the people wishing a fair peace in Middle East a bad reception since do not add anything and starts a useless debate about words. So the article reflects a rather better opinion about the book that the perception I have about how was received by the mainstream of diplomacy and political journalism (ruling out propagandist from both sides who probably started desecrating or enhancing the book without reading it). But this is only my perception so is completely subjective.-- Igor21 09:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
For the full editing history of this article, one has to go to the current and archived talk pages in Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid (see espec. the administrator's permanent saved discussion of the reasons for splitting the too-long article on the book into an article on the book and an article on the commentary on the book: Talk:Palestine Peace Not Apartheid#Requested move. --NYScholar 08:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Why is there so much? (5959 words actually)When I cut and pasted the negative commentary section into microsoft works, it took up nine pages. The positive section amounts to 2656 words if i remember, ( 5 pages), and this is way too much. Each section should be about 2 pages or less. Lets be practical people. Common seriously, this is ludicrous. Reading this article is seriously WORSE than reading the cardholders credit card agreement fine print booklet you receive when you get your statement. If you don't believe me try it. Read your credit card fine print agreement, and then read this article. Which is preferable? I think the credit card fine print is much more interesting. Anonymous 69.108.67.7 22:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Gandhi also expressed his dislike for partition during the late 1930s in response to the topic of the partition of Palestine to create Israel. He stated in Harijan on 26 October 1938:
Several letters have been received by me asking me to declare my views about the Arab-Jew question in Palestine and persecution of the Jews in Germany. It is not without hesitation that I venture to offer my views on this very difficult question. My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became life-long companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age-long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity [...] But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood? Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct.[77][78] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.213.22.193 ( talk) 01:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
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