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I rewrote part of the intro of the article, which seemed to imply that the Colorado is dry in northern Mexico because of natural evaporation, which is false. Prior to its use as a water source, the Delta was a lush marshland. Also the statement that it drains the region between the Rockies and the Sierras is broadly misleading, since its drainage is skewed much more to the western slope of the Rockies, with few of its tributaries penetrating near the Sierra (which is the Great Basin). -- Decumanus 21:13, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I would suggest that this page is moved to either Colorado River or Colorado River (Gulf of California). "Colorado River (U.S.)" makes no sense because: 1) It flows not only through the USA, but also through Mexico. 2) It is not the only river with that name in the US, there is also the Colorado River (Texas).
Replacing the disambig page at Colorado River might be OK because this is the biggest of all of the rivers with this name. If we don't want to do this, I think the best way to distinguish rivers is by their destination -- a river may cross several countries, but it always has only one body of water into which it empties. Comments? -- Chl 16:12, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request.
I would prefer destination style " Colorado River (Gulf of California)" , even if it is the biggest there might come wrong links otherwise. Disambig at Colorado River is nice. Maybe disambig should show which is the biggest/most important of these Rivers. Importance might differ, question: who out of 5 billion would know that the C.River in US is the biggest. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 03:41, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The links to Colorado River almost all mean the one that flows through the Grand Canyon, so I agree with moving this article to that title and moving the disambiguation material to a new page, " Colorado River (disambiguation)". The other two article titles are OK. This article, if placed at " Colorado River", would begin with the "other uses" notice to direct readers to the dab page. JamesMLane 05:35, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support Colorado River (for this river) and Colorado River (disambiguation). –Hajor 19:54, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[1] May be this article should mention briefly the Colorado River Interstate Compact. I visited it expecting some encyclopedic article about the whole compact
Discussion about the title of this article and its recent change can be found at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (acronyms)#Changing article titles from XXXXX (US) to XXXXX (United States). Feel free to contribute. -- hike395 16:25, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I keep deleting the last 2 paragraphs from the engineering section because they are a political discourse on the status of a species recovery program that has nothing to do with the engineering of the Colorado River and is more opinion than information. Apparently, people worried about vandalism keep putting the paragraphs back in. I would suggest that those people actually read the paragraphs before replacing them. They may be used as intersting commentary in an article dealing with the Endangered Species Act and the costs of such programs, but they have no place here.
See the wikipedia article on the Upper Colorado River Endangered Fish Recovery Program. The program IS controversial because of the removal and killing of sportfish that are perhaps unfairly being given part of the blame for the demise of native fish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.211.155.22 ( talk) 20:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Someone removed the statement that "at full flow" the Yukon is larger. The Yukon is larger on average, but what does "full flow" really mean? Perhaps the comparison sentence could be made more precise. -- R27182818 15:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The assertion that the fish recovery program is controversial seems itself controversial. :) I reworded it and added a citation-needed tag. If no one comes up with a citation within a few weeks, I'll assume none is readily available and will remove the statement on controversy. Feedback on this plan is welcome. -- R27182818 19:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Check the wikipedia page on the Upper colorado River Endangered Fish Recovery Program. The program has some controversy surrounding it because they are killing the river's sportfish, which are blamed, perhaps unfairly, for contributing to the demise of the native fish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.33.223.224 ( talk) 00:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The figure on USGS on the average flow being 22,000 cfs IS TRUE. However this is since the early 1900s, when large amounts of water started to be diverted from the river for irrigation and municipal use. The Colorado historically had a much larger flow before it was diverted for human use. This is true with many other rivers, such as the Rio Grande and China's Huang He (Yellow) River. I am a hydrologist and the 42,600 cfs comes from historical data before diversions. --peckvet55
As far as the Green being larger than the Upper Colorado, that is not true according to USGS. Here is the link. Note that the mean flow of the Colorado River near Cisco (before the Green empties into it) is larger:
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ut/nwis/current/?type=flow
The Green River page asserts that it has the larger flow at its confluence with the Colorado, and is the parent river of the river system.
So which is it? The USGS flow data shows the upper Colorado has the greater flow, so did the Green historically have a greater flow (perhaps before the construction of the Flaming Gorge Reservoir)?
The Upper Colorado River always had a higher flow than the Green. Also, Flaming Gorge is a hydroelectric and storage dam, not a diversion dam, so it doesn't lower the flow of the Green River. Spring runoff flows are less however. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.166.224.199 ( talk) 22:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
The section on the renaming of the Grand River to Colorado had a misplaced reference. I just moved it to the end of the sentences actually described in the source. I also added a fact tag for this claim, which I had not heard before and am skeptical about: The USGS had begun a process of simplifying the nomenclature of the nation's rivers. The convention was that the longer of two rivers that converge would carry the name of the greater river system,... If nothing else, that claim is not mentioned in the source referenced, even though the footnote used to be just after it. The only sentence in the source cited that relates is: The Green River is the longer tributary reach of river, but not the one contributing the greatest volume, and traditionally the longest tributary is regarded as a river's headwaters. Nothing about the USGS or any process of renaming rivers. Pfly ( talk) 03:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
This section is still pretty unclear in the article. So did Wyoming and Utah (and perhaps the USGS) want the Green to be remaned the Colorado or did they just not want the State of Colorado to have a "monopoly" on association with the river? And why did congress end up passing the law —Preceding unsigned comment added by IrishJew ( talk • contribs) 05:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I am still researching the early history of the "Grand River". Historically there are two conventions regarding naming of rivers. When Lewis and Clark explored the Missouri, they had no knowledge of how long or wide the drainage basins were, so they named the rivers according to the amount of flow. As long as they could determine which had the greater flow, that was considered the Missouri and the other was given a different name. When they reached the Jefferson, Madison, and Gallitin Rivers, however, they could not clearly determine which had the greatest flow and therefore named Three Forks as the source of the Missouri and gave each branch its name. The confluence of the Green and Grand Rivers, however, was not visited before the rivers were named. The names Green River, Spanish River, and Seedskeedee worked their way down from Wyoming, while the name of Colorado worked its way up from the Gulf of California. At first, "Colorado" was applied only to that portion of the river below its junction with the San Juan (then called the Nabajoo or Nabajoa). That portion of the river from there to the next major junction (with the Dolores) was for a time called the Zaguananas. Gradually that name was dropped and "Colorado" reached as far as the Dolores. Above that point the Dolores and the Rafael were the major branches. It was clear to the trappers that the waters of the Green came out of the unknown regions in or as the Colorado, but exactly how the Green, the Dolores, the Rafael, and the lower Colorado/Zaguananas were connected was not known. Some conlcuded that the Rafael was the Green, others realized it was not and gave it the name Grand. Some then concluded that the Green and Dolores Rivers joined and that the Grand River was a tributary of the Green. Finally Powell charted the correct details.
In the debate over whether the Grand should have been renamed the Colorado, the two conventions were in opposition to each other. The Green had the longer trace, the Grand had the greater volume. If the habit of naming a river up to two relatively equal tributaries had held, then the Grand River would have remained Grand River. But politics overruled not only common practice but the usage of history. Except for a brief reference by Escalante, the Grand/Rafael River had never been referred to as the Colorado; but the Green River often had been, not just by such as Jedediah Smith (who called them both, according to his spelling, the Seeds Keeder) but also by map makers. RDavS ( talk) 21:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi all, I have renamed the photo caption for the river level photo from Grand Canyon. This photo is mislabled and is not from the Upper Grand Canyon-Marble Canyon reach. The photo is a downstream view of Cove Canyon taken from about 174 Mile. If you'd like I can replace the photo with one from Marble Canyon. Tom Martin, author, Guide to the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon, Lee's Ferry to South Cove and Day Hikes From The River, A Guide to 100 Hikes From Camps on the Colorado River in Grand Canyon National Park. Tom@vishnutemplepress.com Grandcanyontom ( talk) 05:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the part that said the Green River has a larger flow. I live on these rivers and that is NOT the case. Check the USGS site. This time of year the upper Colorado has an average flow of approx. 10,000 cfs and the Green 8,600. This trend is true year round, even though the flows are higher or lower. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ut/nwis/current/?type=flow ==peckvet55==
Which is the proportion of water sharing of each country? How much of the water is left for Mexico? Does US compensate the ecological dammage on Colorado delta? (It's well known that the massive water use on US is leaving the Colorado delta dry, and several fish species are on the brink of extinction).
Hi all, hope you don't mind a little tweaking here too. "Just south of the town of Page, Arizona, the river forms the dramatic Horseshoe Bend, then at Lees Ferry is joined by another tributary, the warm, shallow, muddy Paria River, and begins its course through Marble Canyon. Here, the Colorado ranges from 300 to 2000 feet in width (90 to 610 m) and 9 to 130 feet in depth (3 to 40 m)."
Where is the river 2000 feet wide? How about 700 feet max at Middle Nankoweap, river mile 53.4. Runner-up would be just above the Paria Riffle about 0.25 mile.
And 300 feet wide minimum? How about 175 feet in the Supai gorge, around 13.5 mile. Grandcanyontom ( talk) 05:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I have never been to the Grand Canyon so I know nothing about width there. I do know the Colorado is 2000 feet wide or more in many places along the CA/AZ border. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.211.152.207 ( talk) 07:42, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Lakes or pools behind dams don't count for width. Most of the areas I have seen of the lower Colorado, around Laughlin, are easily 400 - 500 yards wide. Some places below the Parker strip are close to a half mile but I would say the average width of the lower river is probably about 1100 feet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.122.31 ( talk) 05:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
The topic of the ecological damage caused by the use of about 80% of this river upstream, radically altering the ecosystems at the delta near the mouth of the river, has been extensively studied. But it's barely touched upon in this article! I would like to request this article be expanded to discuss this, esp. regarding the ecosystems near the river's delta. Cazort ( talk) 01:44, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
I've cut the following from the article. It is sourced to a masters thesis from 1982. It may be the "opinion of some geologists...", but we need reliable sources for it.
Please provide a better source if it is to go back into the article. Vsmith ( talk) 02:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I've been unable to find an article that describes jsut what a "Spanish mile" is. Anyone? babbage ( talk) 04:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
The infobox claims a discharge of 22,000 cfs, and the text clarifies that this was the mean flow between 1903 and 1934. The source cited is this USGS page. The source does back this up, but shouldn't discharge info, especially in the infobox, reflect flow rates up to the present day, not just 1903-1934? The infobox is misleading by not mentioning the value given is historic not current. In fact, the USGS page says the current discharge (at least in 1990 when the text was written) is "less than 15,000 cfs". Pfly ( talk) 21:54, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Twenty two thousand CFS is about right. The flows below Parker and Davis Dams are generally 20,000 - 26,000 cfs during the day or higher in hotter months due to power generation. During night and at other times of the year they can dip below 14,000 cfs. Monitor the USGS discharge site, and you will find the flow to be generally over that this time of year. Flows don't often top 15,000 cfs below Palo Verde Dam and 4000 cfs is a high flow for the river near Yuma, however the majority of the river has been diverted into the All American and Gila Gravity Canals by the time the river reaches Yuma. What remains at Yuma is generally used by Mexico at Morelos Dam, usually around 2000 cfs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.116.24 ( talk) 03:25, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Total flows of the river range from {{convert|113|m3/s|abbr=on|lk=on}} in droughts to {{convert|28000|m3/s|abbr=on}} in severe floods. With the construction of massive power dams on the lower course of the river, flows of over {{convert|2000|m3/s|abbr=on}} are unusual. The mean flow of the river was {{convert|620|m3/s|abbr=on}} during the period between 1903-34. From 1951-80, the average flow was less than {{convert|110|m3/s|abbr=on}}.<ref name=largest/> Historically the flow was much higher before water usage began in the basin.
Heya Shannon, I see we're editing at the same time :-) .. I wonder though how you converted acre-feet per year to cfs--you fixed my numbers (2661 to 2527 and 1194 to 1133). I merely used Google's unit conversion feature, which may or may not be the best way. Still, I double checked: For 1928000 acre-feet per year it says 2661.33907 cfs, and for 865000 acre-feet per year it says 1194.01364 cfs. Pfly ( talk) 17:35, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
This is the time of year the Colorado is normally near it's 22,000 cfs average from Hoover Dam to Imperial Dam due to power generation demand during warmer times of the year. During the day during winter the flows can drop to half that much. So your mean annual figures of the flow beneath the various dams seems about right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.116.24 ( talk) 02:34, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I think we need to repost the 22,000 cfs figure as that is the natural discharge of the river. Wiki has the discharge of the Rio Grande as 5650, and that is the natural flow, as there is no stretch of the Rio Grande that even comes close to that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.116.24 ( talk) 06:51, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
The article states that Lake Mead is 1200 feet above sea level. This was true as late as June 2000 but the level has been steadily decreasing and is currently (Aug.2010)at 1086.91 Ft. The last time it was this low at the end of August was 1936 when it was first being filled. http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/g4000/hourly/mead-elv.htm
This in itself seems noteworthy since the Lake Mead reservoir is the largest in the U.S. BrianAlex ( talk) 21:31, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Some people keep putting municipal diversions as a major reason the Colorado River is severely dewatered. This is not the case. Irrigation makes up 90% of all water diversions in the Colorado River basin. Also, the river is not noticeably dewatered until downstream of the Yuma area, which is where the All American Canal, the largest irrigation canal in the world, and the Gila Gravity Canal, still a huge canal, are diverted at Imperial Dam for irrigation purposes. Municipal water use and evaporation do have an effect, but it's a small one. So I clarified this and also listed those as smaller reasons to satisfy all parties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.119.2 ( talk) 05:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I speak four languages... I love languages... the language of this article is English. Is it really necessary to translate "Colorado River" into so many different tongues in the very first sentence? Maybe this info would be better in some other part of the article. The parenthesis and pronunciation guides are nice, but don't add anything to the intro.-- Lacarids ( talk) 03:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems we have eleven reference tags which point to the ACME Mapper website. The ACME website gives the option of viewing USGS topo maps, but doesn't go to the map view supporting the referenced feature - the user has to search. It seems a better approach is needed, at minimum each ref to ACME should take the user to the specific map view referenced. It seems a better approach would be to reference the USGS Quadrangle used specifically for each ref use with perhaps a link to ACME mapper's view for that location at whatever resolution needed to show the named feature. That requires more work and requires each as a stand alone ref rather than a "ref name=" grouping. Currently the user is required to do the work and I'm skeptical about the current useage of ACME mapper satisfying WP:RS requirements. Vsmith ( talk) 14:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
This redo of the article really, really sucks. It is filled with erroneous information (ie municipal diversions being a major reason for depletion of river flow) and unproven assertions (ie climate change being a big reason for depletion of the river. The historical flow of the Colorado is 22,000 cfs and that should be listed as the discharge, rather than man altered flows. There is a big environmentalist slant to this entire article. It is NOT NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.119.2 ( talk) 03:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
This rewrite is quite problematic. It starts out well, but the Course section trashed a lot of hard work and research by those who came before. It displays an ignorance of how the river actually flows, and which features that it flows past or through are significant. A lot of important information has been thrown away. The many of us who contributed before have more intimate knowledge of the river, especially its upper reaches. For instance, I have traveled its entire length in Colorado, from LaPoudre Pass to the Utah line, either by road, rail, on foot, or on watercraft - and I am probably not the only previous contributor who has done so. I would prefer to revert this entire drastic rewrite and discuss any proposed changes here first, but I will await further comment before doing that. RogerD ( talk) 19:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Hey, I know a lot of the Colorado too, it's not like I live in Canada and I've never even stood on its banks before. Revert the goddamn section if you want, but the thing is that it was way too long compared to the rest of the article (whether the previous, good version or the current version). I've seen instances where course descriptions that are too long have been relegated to separate pages, like Course of the Willamette River, or Course of the Klamath River, etc. I'm especially irritated at how I'm a strong supporter of the dams and the Bureau of Reclamation and this whole thing still came out with an "environmentalist slant", at least according to the IP above, who cannot watch his mouth... whoever wrote Wikipedia:IPs are human too may want to rethink that page... The Colorado has been my favorite river since who knows when, but I'll try to avoid editing such a controversial topic again; I apologize for b.s.'ing such an important topic, and lacking the talent to do this right Shann º n 01:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
A separate Course of the Colorado River page, made from the huge amount of deleted material, would be an interesting alternative to reverting it. One of the most attractive aspects of a separate page would be the opportunity for further work on it to include more detail, without fearing making the main article even longer. You have also found some good photographs which would be great at appropriate places on a separate Course page, in addition to the ones that were there in the previous version of the main page.
However, including lots of references in a new Course page would be easy, done the way you have done some of them - by simply referring in many cases to a generic USGS topo map site, without even specifying which topo map or coordinates. Doing that, and then saying the previous version of Course had no references, does not add actual sources. All that proves is that USGS maps of this location exist somewhere. The previous version did not violate WP:OR, which states that material must be "attributable, even if not attributed". For instance, stating that the Colorado River meets the Eagle River at Dotsero, Colorado falls in the same category as WP:OR's example of Paris being the capital of France - it is very widely attributable from a number of sources.
After we create a separate Course page, it would probably be appropriate to further reduce the Course section in the main article to be even more of an overview, listing only main highlights such as principal canyons (Glenwood, Grand), tributaries (Gunnison, Green, Gila), and reservoirs (Powell, Mead). This would better integrate a new Course page into the main page.
I do not doubt that you know something about, and you care about, the Colorado River, but I get the feeling that your knowledge is more about its lower course than its upper course. You did not include much information about the upper river, such as in the Recreation section. You also have some clear errors involving the river's upper reaches. Going forward, you can expect the usual number of edits to commence soon, especially concerning the Upper Colorado with which others are more familiar.
I see now one of the things you have done is to move, rather than delete, some material from the Course section into other sections. (Example: Mention of Grand Ditch was moved from Course to River development.) It appears that you have "rotated" the whole page from being organized geographically to be more organized by subject. Whether that is a good or bad idea (it's probably good), you could have headed off some of the unease among other editors about deleted material by explaining this on the Talk page. In fact, that would be my main advice to you next time you contemplate a time-consuming project like this on a large, important page with numerous ongoing contributors: Don't make it a surprise! Announce your plans on the Talk page, perhaps even with a link to your sandbox page as you develop it. Explain what you are doing and why. You might even get help with it, instead of criticism. The final product would be better, and would be better received too.
I've gone on too long here, but this rewrite has touched on some issues. So we all have some work to do to hopefully move forward.
(And by the way, I believe in signing everything, even criticism, unlike some above.) RogerD ( talk) 06:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
The third paragraph, second sentence of the article says "These works irrigate an area larger than the state of Connecticut". Come on, it has to be bigger than that! The Colorado irrigates vast areas; Connecticut is tiny. I tagged that phrase as "citation needed" but what I really meant was "this statement defies common sense, can we just get rid of it?" -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:05, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: MathewTownsend ( talk · contribs) 20:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
(I'll add some more if I see anything, but I think the article is quite well done, considering all the information it encompasses.
MathewTownsend ( talk) 20:18, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
GA review-see WP:WIAGA for criteria (and here for what they are not)
Congratulatons! MathewTownsend ( talk) 18:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Your depth and width assertions for the river are incorrect. I have traveled the entire Colorado from Granby to below Yuma, complete with sonar and range finders. The river is actually quite a deep one for being more or less free flowing except in the reservoirs. I would say the 6 - 20 foot depth figure is accurate for the Upper River in Colorado, with notable exceptions. The deepest spot in the Upper Colorado is over 90 feet near Black Rocks in Colorado, with a 50 foot pool upstream of Glenwood Springs. As far as width, 200 - 500 feet would be accurate until you get to Grand Junction, where the Gunnison joins. Downstream of here until the Green meets, the average width is more like 350 - 750 feet. The widest is just downstream of the Green Confluence at about 1040 feet.
The Lower Colorado through the Grand Canyon is VERY deep, which numerous spots over 100 feet deep. The average depth in the Canyon is 20 - 30 feet, though it is narrower here, the widest spot being about 0.25 of a mile and the narrowest under 100 feet.
Once downstream of Davis Dam until Imperial Dam, the Colorado is wide and deep. This is the area I frequent most. The average width is probably over 1000 feet, with the widest spot being downstream from the Parker Strip at around 2100 feet. The narrowest area is around Blythe at about 560 feet. The depth ranges from as shallow as 7 to as deep as 110, with the average depth probably 18 - 20 feet. That is deep for a free flowing river. Comparible rivers, such as the Missouri and Upper Mississippi are SHALLOWER in their unaltered sections. In fact they were too shallow for large barges until scores of dams turned them into a series of reservoirs. The Colorado was navigable by similiar craft year round WITHOUT a lock and dam system.
Downstream of Imperial, where most of the water is removed and enters canals, the river is similiar in size to it's headwaters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.6.221.202 ( talk) 02:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
To say the river is relatively shallow is a personal view. It is shallower than say the Columbia or Lower Mississippi, but for a river that is not equipped with a lock and dam system (which can turn even modest sized rivers such as the Verdigris in Oklahoma into a waterway navigable by large vessels) it is quite deep. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
98.127.217.40 (
talk)
08:39, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
This section of the article appears to be based on a misunderstanding of sources. The root of the problem is the failure to differentiate between prehistoric cultures known only from the archaeological record and oral tradition and modern indigenous cultures/nations, hundreds of thousands of whose members continue to live in traditional communities and speak native languages (note that the Navajo language alone has over 170,000 speakers).
While Hohokam and Ancestral Puebloan (aka Anasazi or Hisatsinom) agricultural society can be said to have collapsed before the 1500s, it is inaccurate to portray their descendants as mere relics of the past, given that nations such as the Navajo, Hopi, Havasupai, Hualapai, Mojave, etc., have continued to engage -- very successfully, in many cases -- in traditional agricultural practices long after the arrival of Europeans to the area. These nations all still call the Colorado River watershed home. All of the languages whose names for the river were removed from the lede and relegated to a past-tense reference to what the river "was called" in times long since past are still natively spoken by anywhere between 100 and 170,000 people, depending on language.
Of equal importance to note is the fact that the tribal governments of these nations are major players in the geopolitical landscape of the Southwest, in large part due to their legal standing wrt water rights to Colorado River water.
The general consensus among archaeologists nowadays is that the ancestral civilizations of the Southwest didn't "collapse" so much as they adapted to changes in climate, resulting in more dispersed settlements in some cases, and a greater focus on agricultural adaptations to very low rainfall conditions, including floodplain farming and use of especially drought-resistant crop varieties, among other techniques. These adaptations resulted in the modern indigenous societies that inhabit the area today.
Anyhow, the point is that it's incorrect to refer to prehistoric groups and modern groups as if there were no difference, and claim that their societies all collapsed as if they are no longer around - this is only half-true for the prehistoric groups, and absolutely false for the historic and modern societies.
I've made some basic changes to the article, but felt unsure about changing the Indigenous section very much as I wasn't sure how to fix it without deleting the whole section and starting over.
Thanks for reading this and taking these important facts into consideration. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 02:34, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Also I'd like to give my rationale for why it's necessary to keep native names in the infobox and first paragraph. Given that the river flows through the jurisdictions of tribal governments, as well as the territory of the Republic of Mexico, I think it's important that we give the same placement to the name of this body of water in the official languages of those political entities just as we generally do with any geographical name in the official language of the country/region/etc where it is found. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 02:48, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Although suggested Toltec origins of the Hohokam people are an interesting theory, they are little more than that. When talking about prehistoric cultures it's important to remember that besides things that can be dug up and analyzed, or found on a rock (petroglyphs) or something of the sort, it's difficult to state anything definitively, and for this reason many conclusions that have been drawn from archeological evidence are extremely controversial within the field. As far as Toltec origins of Hohokam culture go specifically, there are some who are of the idea that Hohokam developed out of previous cultures that were already in the area and learned agricultural techniques from other cultural groups, and others who believe that they migrated from the south and brought agriculture with them. It would be somewhere between difficult and impossible to definitively prove either theory with the evidence that is currently available... -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 23:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I've been debating for a while whether to create a seperate "Names" header for this article or not, since it seems that there's no really good place to mention the multiple Native American and Spanish names for the river; also the Grand River paragraph seems to just be tacked onto the back of the history section. Suggestions are welcome. Shann º n 17:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
A blockquote of Floyd Dominy has been placed with no context adjacent to early 1900s efforts to "harness" the Colorado.
The quote: "The undammed Colorado River is] useless to anyone... I've seen all the wild rivers I ever want to see."
—Floyd Dominy, USBR commissioner from 1959–1969
The quote appears four paragraphs ahead of his tenure with the USBR and has no connection. I see the quote as a POV problem - especially with no context provided. If included in a paragraph re: the 1950-70s controversy over Lake Powell with sufficient context might be justified. But not as a misplaced, isolated quote.
Vsmith (
talk)
01:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
According to the map, the river reaches the sea, but nowadays the river (usually) doesn't even reach San Luis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.81.0 ( talk) 10:41, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
I see that current ref #28, which is cited eight times, is still to the general ACME mapper page (clicking the link takes you to the last map view you accessed). ACME Mapper is a tool to view USGS topo maps in a seamless manner. Seems it would not qualify as a WP:RS, rather a means of viewing USGS maps. The specific USGS maps would be reliable sources (depending on what is being sourced) and should be linked directly as the source. The maps are available for download from the USGS here. If a web based format is preferred then Topoquest would perhaps be better as they provide the USGS map name and datum used. Additionally, I see that ACME is used for the length of the Deloris and Virgin rivers while the National Map is used for the San Juan and Gunnison rivers. Both are tools for map viewing - and I don't see how they are a reference for the length of a specific river. Vsmith ( talk) 14:14, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I noticed there was a sorting issue with the tributaries table, when I borrowed and adapted it for an English river, and realised I had not returned the favour. The problem being that the metric columns were not sorting correctly, due to the references. I have edited the table as below to solve the problem, but thought you may want to see the result before using it. Jokulhlaup ( talk) 17:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Statistics of the Colorado's longest tributaries | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Name | State | Length | Watershed | Discharge | References | |||
mi | km | mi2 | km2 | cfs | m3/s | |||
Green River | ![]() |
730 | 1,170 | 48,100 | 125,000 | 6,048 | 171.3 | [1] [2] [3] [n 1] |
Gila River | ![]() |
649 | 1,044 | 58,200 | 151,000 | 247 | 7.0 | [4] [2] [5] [n 2] |
San Juan River | ![]() |
383 | 616 | 24,600 | 64,000 | 2,192 | 62.1 | [7] [2] [8] [n 3] |
Little Colorado River | ![]() |
356 | 573 | 26,500 | 69,000 | 424 | 12.0 | [9] [2] [10] |
Dolores River | ![]() |
250 | 400 | 4,574 | 11,850 | 633 | 17.9 | [11] [2] [12] |
Gunnison River | ![]() |
164 | 264 | 7,930 | 20,500 | 2,570 | 73 | [7] [2] [13] |
Virgin River | ![]() |
160 | 260 | 13,020 | 33,700 | 239 | 6.8 | [14] [2] [15] [n 4] |
USGSbasins
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).USGSrivers
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Shannon, I assume that either you wrote this sentence or you are familiar with the information. I find it confusing. Why is the verb for "Gila" in the past tense, and what does "naturally" mean in this case? Is it the Gunnison and San Juan combined that exceed the Gila, or each one alone? Jsayre64 (talk) 22:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
I may be missing something, and I see that the matter has already been discussed here at least once, but it doesn't appear that the claim of a 22,500-cfs average natural flow at the mouth is supported by any of the three flow citations that the article gives in the geobox. That average flow citation did not have a URL until I found it online and added it, when I noticed that the source mentions neither 22,500 nor 16.3 million acre-feet (a statistic given at the beginning of the discharge section). Checking the USGS citation for the min. flow, it only mentions 422 cfs. The Wiltshire book, which I can read much of on Google Books, reflects the article's claim of 384,000 cfs as the max. flow, but produces no results for 22,500 or for 16.3 million. I went here and typed in the gage number at Topock, Arizona, to no avail. Then I tried selecting Mohave County, Arizona, which brought up a different gage number at a different spot on the river [5]—already trouble—that has completely different flow numbers (and, by the way, demonstrates how unbelievably dry 2012 was away from home). I ran several Google searches for 22,500 cfs on the Colorado River, and the closest I got was this USBR presentation (it's on the slide titled "Colorado River Operations"), where there isn't enough context. Jsayre64 (talk) 04:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Also, while I'm at it! Yesterday I came across this "streamflow map" of the lower Colorado and its various diversions and returns. It may well be out of date (1964), but is interesting in how it shows the flow sizes—the All-American Canal dramatically diverts most of the river. It also shows how most of the tiny bit left below the All-American Canal is in turn diverted at Morelos Dam. I don't think I'd rely on this older source for detailed info, but the map is pretty nice, and it gives one a good sense of the complexities of the lower river's flow: [7] (also at File:LowerColoradoRiver-waterresources-USGS1964.jpg). (I'll try to actually work on the page itself sooner or later) Pfly ( talk) 19:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to be opening another talk page section, but I am puzzled by the temperature numbers given in the second paragraph of the watershed section. I don't have access to that page in Rivers of North America, but if these are the "mean monthly high temperatures," I think the range would be much greater. Doesn't Rock Springs, Wyoming, average a high of 27.3 F in January, and doesn't Phoenix peak at 106.1 F in July? I'm citing their Wikipedia pages, which cite NOAA. Jsayre64 (talk) 17:00, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Is there a way to make the conversion template display as, say, "85 million short tons (77 million t)" instead of "85,000,000 short tons (77,000,000 t)"? The numbers in this article tend to be very large (i.e. we're talking millions of acre feet, millions of tons) so it seems it may be beneficial to reduce them. Shann o n 02:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Inhabitants living thanks to the Colorado : 30 millions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.220.166.253 ( talk) 21:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
The name Colorado can be understood if it is written in Bengali.'Kaliro' is the word Kali in the possessive case, which means ' of Kali '. The word' Aado' is derived from the Sanskrit word- ' Aadya ' which means'the first/ or the beginning'. Thus the word Colorado = Kaliro + Ado = Kali's beginning or the first step of the Naga tribe into the west coast of North America. It seems that they entered the Gulf of California, sailed up to the point where the river Colorado joins the Gulf and entered the main land at the mouth of the river. So they called the river as ' the first step of the sons of Kali into the west coast' some twelve thousand years ago. 117.195.241.94 ( talk) 05:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Bksatyanarayana
So one day I went and followed the example of many UK featured river articles and created one of those nifty route diagram templates for the Colorado at User:Shannon1/Sandbox 3. I was just seeking some opinion before inserting it into the article because it turned out to be extremely complex, possibly bigger than any routemap currently in use. Anyways, I like it because it gives a better idea of the complexities of Colorado River diversions (especially in the lower basin, which is a veritable maze of waterways, as Pfly pointed out above. Thoughts? Shann o n 02:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the recent change of the geobox picture, while I do understand the original photo made it sort of hard to see the river, the new photo also does (the shown stretch is technically part of Lake Mohave so you also can't see the river). Does anyone know of a photo, preferably aerial or at least from a high vantage point, e.g. canyon rim, where you can see the river clearly? (e.g. this or this, except that's not a picture of the Colorado River.) There aren't any on the Commons I can find. Shann o n 03:04, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
From a purely referenced based point of view almost every sentence in the paragraph "Beginning with small bands of nomadic..." is a unreferenced statement. I could put tens of citation needed tags there but this seems heavy handed and would bog things down. What do you think? Is there a single reference to cover this entire paragraph? None is provided. Personally I think that the statements in this paragraph are probably correct but I would like to have some references to look at to get more detail. Maybe just a single citation needed at the end of the paragraph or just a note (I.E. this) that some citations would be good? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
According to the article Francisco de Ulloa was "the first documented European to reach the Colorado River, sailed up the Gulf of California and continued a short distance into the river's delta". Well, the link to support that fact is unfortunately broken and the link FRANCISCO DE ULLOA and the Naming of California says something else, that de Ulloa never reached the Colorado, but suspected its existence because of strong current there. אביהו ( talk) 07:01, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
It would be super awesome to have a List of Crossings of the Colorado River page, analogous to /info/en/?search=List_of_fixed_crossings_of_the_Hudson_River and its kin. 71.218.4.209 ( talk) 18:24, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
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In this article: "Mormons founded the settlement of Vernal along the Green River in Utah in 1878". In the article about Vernal, Utah: "Vernal, unlike most Utah towns, was not settled by Mormons". אביהו ( talk) 05:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Could someone add the fact that one of the previous names of the Colorado River was Buena Guia, as per /info/en/?search=Hernando_de_Alarc%C3%B3n ?
Also, what about Rio del Tizon as per /info/en/?search=Melchor_D%C3%ADaz ? (in case it's true) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2ED6:9470:7171:760E:F581:4BF6 ( talk) 23:44, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2ED6:9470:7171:760E:F581:4BF6 ( talk) 23:37, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
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The map is incorrect. The map names Fort Collins as "Boulder".
Boulder is actually situated where the "y" in Granby is written. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.127.21.51 ( talk) 17:42, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I rewrote part of the intro of the article, which seemed to imply that the Colorado is dry in northern Mexico because of natural evaporation, which is false. Prior to its use as a water source, the Delta was a lush marshland. Also the statement that it drains the region between the Rockies and the Sierras is broadly misleading, since its drainage is skewed much more to the western slope of the Rockies, with few of its tributaries penetrating near the Sierra (which is the Great Basin). -- Decumanus 21:13, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I would suggest that this page is moved to either Colorado River or Colorado River (Gulf of California). "Colorado River (U.S.)" makes no sense because: 1) It flows not only through the USA, but also through Mexico. 2) It is not the only river with that name in the US, there is also the Colorado River (Texas).
Replacing the disambig page at Colorado River might be OK because this is the biggest of all of the rivers with this name. If we don't want to do this, I think the best way to distinguish rivers is by their destination -- a river may cross several countries, but it always has only one body of water into which it empties. Comments? -- Chl 16:12, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
This article has been renamed as the result of a move request.
I would prefer destination style " Colorado River (Gulf of California)" , even if it is the biggest there might come wrong links otherwise. Disambig at Colorado River is nice. Maybe disambig should show which is the biggest/most important of these Rivers. Importance might differ, question: who out of 5 billion would know that the C.River in US is the biggest. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 03:41, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The links to Colorado River almost all mean the one that flows through the Grand Canyon, so I agree with moving this article to that title and moving the disambiguation material to a new page, " Colorado River (disambiguation)". The other two article titles are OK. This article, if placed at " Colorado River", would begin with the "other uses" notice to direct readers to the dab page. JamesMLane 05:35, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Support Colorado River (for this river) and Colorado River (disambiguation). –Hajor 19:54, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[1] May be this article should mention briefly the Colorado River Interstate Compact. I visited it expecting some encyclopedic article about the whole compact
Discussion about the title of this article and its recent change can be found at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (acronyms)#Changing article titles from XXXXX (US) to XXXXX (United States). Feel free to contribute. -- hike395 16:25, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I keep deleting the last 2 paragraphs from the engineering section because they are a political discourse on the status of a species recovery program that has nothing to do with the engineering of the Colorado River and is more opinion than information. Apparently, people worried about vandalism keep putting the paragraphs back in. I would suggest that those people actually read the paragraphs before replacing them. They may be used as intersting commentary in an article dealing with the Endangered Species Act and the costs of such programs, but they have no place here.
See the wikipedia article on the Upper Colorado River Endangered Fish Recovery Program. The program IS controversial because of the removal and killing of sportfish that are perhaps unfairly being given part of the blame for the demise of native fish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.211.155.22 ( talk) 20:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Someone removed the statement that "at full flow" the Yukon is larger. The Yukon is larger on average, but what does "full flow" really mean? Perhaps the comparison sentence could be made more precise. -- R27182818 15:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The assertion that the fish recovery program is controversial seems itself controversial. :) I reworded it and added a citation-needed tag. If no one comes up with a citation within a few weeks, I'll assume none is readily available and will remove the statement on controversy. Feedback on this plan is welcome. -- R27182818 19:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Check the wikipedia page on the Upper colorado River Endangered Fish Recovery Program. The program has some controversy surrounding it because they are killing the river's sportfish, which are blamed, perhaps unfairly, for contributing to the demise of the native fish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.33.223.224 ( talk) 00:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
The figure on USGS on the average flow being 22,000 cfs IS TRUE. However this is since the early 1900s, when large amounts of water started to be diverted from the river for irrigation and municipal use. The Colorado historically had a much larger flow before it was diverted for human use. This is true with many other rivers, such as the Rio Grande and China's Huang He (Yellow) River. I am a hydrologist and the 42,600 cfs comes from historical data before diversions. --peckvet55
As far as the Green being larger than the Upper Colorado, that is not true according to USGS. Here is the link. Note that the mean flow of the Colorado River near Cisco (before the Green empties into it) is larger:
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ut/nwis/current/?type=flow
The Green River page asserts that it has the larger flow at its confluence with the Colorado, and is the parent river of the river system.
So which is it? The USGS flow data shows the upper Colorado has the greater flow, so did the Green historically have a greater flow (perhaps before the construction of the Flaming Gorge Reservoir)?
The Upper Colorado River always had a higher flow than the Green. Also, Flaming Gorge is a hydroelectric and storage dam, not a diversion dam, so it doesn't lower the flow of the Green River. Spring runoff flows are less however. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.166.224.199 ( talk) 22:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
The section on the renaming of the Grand River to Colorado had a misplaced reference. I just moved it to the end of the sentences actually described in the source. I also added a fact tag for this claim, which I had not heard before and am skeptical about: The USGS had begun a process of simplifying the nomenclature of the nation's rivers. The convention was that the longer of two rivers that converge would carry the name of the greater river system,... If nothing else, that claim is not mentioned in the source referenced, even though the footnote used to be just after it. The only sentence in the source cited that relates is: The Green River is the longer tributary reach of river, but not the one contributing the greatest volume, and traditionally the longest tributary is regarded as a river's headwaters. Nothing about the USGS or any process of renaming rivers. Pfly ( talk) 03:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
This section is still pretty unclear in the article. So did Wyoming and Utah (and perhaps the USGS) want the Green to be remaned the Colorado or did they just not want the State of Colorado to have a "monopoly" on association with the river? And why did congress end up passing the law —Preceding unsigned comment added by IrishJew ( talk • contribs) 05:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I am still researching the early history of the "Grand River". Historically there are two conventions regarding naming of rivers. When Lewis and Clark explored the Missouri, they had no knowledge of how long or wide the drainage basins were, so they named the rivers according to the amount of flow. As long as they could determine which had the greater flow, that was considered the Missouri and the other was given a different name. When they reached the Jefferson, Madison, and Gallitin Rivers, however, they could not clearly determine which had the greatest flow and therefore named Three Forks as the source of the Missouri and gave each branch its name. The confluence of the Green and Grand Rivers, however, was not visited before the rivers were named. The names Green River, Spanish River, and Seedskeedee worked their way down from Wyoming, while the name of Colorado worked its way up from the Gulf of California. At first, "Colorado" was applied only to that portion of the river below its junction with the San Juan (then called the Nabajoo or Nabajoa). That portion of the river from there to the next major junction (with the Dolores) was for a time called the Zaguananas. Gradually that name was dropped and "Colorado" reached as far as the Dolores. Above that point the Dolores and the Rafael were the major branches. It was clear to the trappers that the waters of the Green came out of the unknown regions in or as the Colorado, but exactly how the Green, the Dolores, the Rafael, and the lower Colorado/Zaguananas were connected was not known. Some conlcuded that the Rafael was the Green, others realized it was not and gave it the name Grand. Some then concluded that the Green and Dolores Rivers joined and that the Grand River was a tributary of the Green. Finally Powell charted the correct details.
In the debate over whether the Grand should have been renamed the Colorado, the two conventions were in opposition to each other. The Green had the longer trace, the Grand had the greater volume. If the habit of naming a river up to two relatively equal tributaries had held, then the Grand River would have remained Grand River. But politics overruled not only common practice but the usage of history. Except for a brief reference by Escalante, the Grand/Rafael River had never been referred to as the Colorado; but the Green River often had been, not just by such as Jedediah Smith (who called them both, according to his spelling, the Seeds Keeder) but also by map makers. RDavS ( talk) 21:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi all, I have renamed the photo caption for the river level photo from Grand Canyon. This photo is mislabled and is not from the Upper Grand Canyon-Marble Canyon reach. The photo is a downstream view of Cove Canyon taken from about 174 Mile. If you'd like I can replace the photo with one from Marble Canyon. Tom Martin, author, Guide to the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon, Lee's Ferry to South Cove and Day Hikes From The River, A Guide to 100 Hikes From Camps on the Colorado River in Grand Canyon National Park. Tom@vishnutemplepress.com Grandcanyontom ( talk) 05:24, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I deleted the part that said the Green River has a larger flow. I live on these rivers and that is NOT the case. Check the USGS site. This time of year the upper Colorado has an average flow of approx. 10,000 cfs and the Green 8,600. This trend is true year round, even though the flows are higher or lower. http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ut/nwis/current/?type=flow ==peckvet55==
Which is the proportion of water sharing of each country? How much of the water is left for Mexico? Does US compensate the ecological dammage on Colorado delta? (It's well known that the massive water use on US is leaving the Colorado delta dry, and several fish species are on the brink of extinction).
Hi all, hope you don't mind a little tweaking here too. "Just south of the town of Page, Arizona, the river forms the dramatic Horseshoe Bend, then at Lees Ferry is joined by another tributary, the warm, shallow, muddy Paria River, and begins its course through Marble Canyon. Here, the Colorado ranges from 300 to 2000 feet in width (90 to 610 m) and 9 to 130 feet in depth (3 to 40 m)."
Where is the river 2000 feet wide? How about 700 feet max at Middle Nankoweap, river mile 53.4. Runner-up would be just above the Paria Riffle about 0.25 mile.
And 300 feet wide minimum? How about 175 feet in the Supai gorge, around 13.5 mile. Grandcanyontom ( talk) 05:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I have never been to the Grand Canyon so I know nothing about width there. I do know the Colorado is 2000 feet wide or more in many places along the CA/AZ border. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.211.152.207 ( talk) 07:42, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Lakes or pools behind dams don't count for width. Most of the areas I have seen of the lower Colorado, around Laughlin, are easily 400 - 500 yards wide. Some places below the Parker strip are close to a half mile but I would say the average width of the lower river is probably about 1100 feet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.122.31 ( talk) 05:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
The topic of the ecological damage caused by the use of about 80% of this river upstream, radically altering the ecosystems at the delta near the mouth of the river, has been extensively studied. But it's barely touched upon in this article! I would like to request this article be expanded to discuss this, esp. regarding the ecosystems near the river's delta. Cazort ( talk) 01:44, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
I've cut the following from the article. It is sourced to a masters thesis from 1982. It may be the "opinion of some geologists...", but we need reliable sources for it.
Please provide a better source if it is to go back into the article. Vsmith ( talk) 02:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
I've been unable to find an article that describes jsut what a "Spanish mile" is. Anyone? babbage ( talk) 04:53, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
The infobox claims a discharge of 22,000 cfs, and the text clarifies that this was the mean flow between 1903 and 1934. The source cited is this USGS page. The source does back this up, but shouldn't discharge info, especially in the infobox, reflect flow rates up to the present day, not just 1903-1934? The infobox is misleading by not mentioning the value given is historic not current. In fact, the USGS page says the current discharge (at least in 1990 when the text was written) is "less than 15,000 cfs". Pfly ( talk) 21:54, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Twenty two thousand CFS is about right. The flows below Parker and Davis Dams are generally 20,000 - 26,000 cfs during the day or higher in hotter months due to power generation. During night and at other times of the year they can dip below 14,000 cfs. Monitor the USGS discharge site, and you will find the flow to be generally over that this time of year. Flows don't often top 15,000 cfs below Palo Verde Dam and 4000 cfs is a high flow for the river near Yuma, however the majority of the river has been diverted into the All American and Gila Gravity Canals by the time the river reaches Yuma. What remains at Yuma is generally used by Mexico at Morelos Dam, usually around 2000 cfs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.116.24 ( talk) 03:25, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Total flows of the river range from {{convert|113|m3/s|abbr=on|lk=on}} in droughts to {{convert|28000|m3/s|abbr=on}} in severe floods. With the construction of massive power dams on the lower course of the river, flows of over {{convert|2000|m3/s|abbr=on}} are unusual. The mean flow of the river was {{convert|620|m3/s|abbr=on}} during the period between 1903-34. From 1951-80, the average flow was less than {{convert|110|m3/s|abbr=on}}.<ref name=largest/> Historically the flow was much higher before water usage began in the basin.
Heya Shannon, I see we're editing at the same time :-) .. I wonder though how you converted acre-feet per year to cfs--you fixed my numbers (2661 to 2527 and 1194 to 1133). I merely used Google's unit conversion feature, which may or may not be the best way. Still, I double checked: For 1928000 acre-feet per year it says 2661.33907 cfs, and for 865000 acre-feet per year it says 1194.01364 cfs. Pfly ( talk) 17:35, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
This is the time of year the Colorado is normally near it's 22,000 cfs average from Hoover Dam to Imperial Dam due to power generation demand during warmer times of the year. During the day during winter the flows can drop to half that much. So your mean annual figures of the flow beneath the various dams seems about right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.116.24 ( talk) 02:34, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
I think we need to repost the 22,000 cfs figure as that is the natural discharge of the river. Wiki has the discharge of the Rio Grande as 5650, and that is the natural flow, as there is no stretch of the Rio Grande that even comes close to that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.116.24 ( talk) 06:51, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
The article states that Lake Mead is 1200 feet above sea level. This was true as late as June 2000 but the level has been steadily decreasing and is currently (Aug.2010)at 1086.91 Ft. The last time it was this low at the end of August was 1936 when it was first being filled. http://www.usbr.gov/lc/region/g4000/hourly/mead-elv.htm
This in itself seems noteworthy since the Lake Mead reservoir is the largest in the U.S. BrianAlex ( talk) 21:31, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Some people keep putting municipal diversions as a major reason the Colorado River is severely dewatered. This is not the case. Irrigation makes up 90% of all water diversions in the Colorado River basin. Also, the river is not noticeably dewatered until downstream of the Yuma area, which is where the All American Canal, the largest irrigation canal in the world, and the Gila Gravity Canal, still a huge canal, are diverted at Imperial Dam for irrigation purposes. Municipal water use and evaporation do have an effect, but it's a small one. So I clarified this and also listed those as smaller reasons to satisfy all parties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.119.2 ( talk) 05:14, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I speak four languages... I love languages... the language of this article is English. Is it really necessary to translate "Colorado River" into so many different tongues in the very first sentence? Maybe this info would be better in some other part of the article. The parenthesis and pronunciation guides are nice, but don't add anything to the intro.-- Lacarids ( talk) 03:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
It seems we have eleven reference tags which point to the ACME Mapper website. The ACME website gives the option of viewing USGS topo maps, but doesn't go to the map view supporting the referenced feature - the user has to search. It seems a better approach is needed, at minimum each ref to ACME should take the user to the specific map view referenced. It seems a better approach would be to reference the USGS Quadrangle used specifically for each ref use with perhaps a link to ACME mapper's view for that location at whatever resolution needed to show the named feature. That requires more work and requires each as a stand alone ref rather than a "ref name=" grouping. Currently the user is required to do the work and I'm skeptical about the current useage of ACME mapper satisfying WP:RS requirements. Vsmith ( talk) 14:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
This redo of the article really, really sucks. It is filled with erroneous information (ie municipal diversions being a major reason for depletion of river flow) and unproven assertions (ie climate change being a big reason for depletion of the river. The historical flow of the Colorado is 22,000 cfs and that should be listed as the discharge, rather than man altered flows. There is a big environmentalist slant to this entire article. It is NOT NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.127.119.2 ( talk) 03:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
This rewrite is quite problematic. It starts out well, but the Course section trashed a lot of hard work and research by those who came before. It displays an ignorance of how the river actually flows, and which features that it flows past or through are significant. A lot of important information has been thrown away. The many of us who contributed before have more intimate knowledge of the river, especially its upper reaches. For instance, I have traveled its entire length in Colorado, from LaPoudre Pass to the Utah line, either by road, rail, on foot, or on watercraft - and I am probably not the only previous contributor who has done so. I would prefer to revert this entire drastic rewrite and discuss any proposed changes here first, but I will await further comment before doing that. RogerD ( talk) 19:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
Hey, I know a lot of the Colorado too, it's not like I live in Canada and I've never even stood on its banks before. Revert the goddamn section if you want, but the thing is that it was way too long compared to the rest of the article (whether the previous, good version or the current version). I've seen instances where course descriptions that are too long have been relegated to separate pages, like Course of the Willamette River, or Course of the Klamath River, etc. I'm especially irritated at how I'm a strong supporter of the dams and the Bureau of Reclamation and this whole thing still came out with an "environmentalist slant", at least according to the IP above, who cannot watch his mouth... whoever wrote Wikipedia:IPs are human too may want to rethink that page... The Colorado has been my favorite river since who knows when, but I'll try to avoid editing such a controversial topic again; I apologize for b.s.'ing such an important topic, and lacking the talent to do this right Shann º n 01:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
A separate Course of the Colorado River page, made from the huge amount of deleted material, would be an interesting alternative to reverting it. One of the most attractive aspects of a separate page would be the opportunity for further work on it to include more detail, without fearing making the main article even longer. You have also found some good photographs which would be great at appropriate places on a separate Course page, in addition to the ones that were there in the previous version of the main page.
However, including lots of references in a new Course page would be easy, done the way you have done some of them - by simply referring in many cases to a generic USGS topo map site, without even specifying which topo map or coordinates. Doing that, and then saying the previous version of Course had no references, does not add actual sources. All that proves is that USGS maps of this location exist somewhere. The previous version did not violate WP:OR, which states that material must be "attributable, even if not attributed". For instance, stating that the Colorado River meets the Eagle River at Dotsero, Colorado falls in the same category as WP:OR's example of Paris being the capital of France - it is very widely attributable from a number of sources.
After we create a separate Course page, it would probably be appropriate to further reduce the Course section in the main article to be even more of an overview, listing only main highlights such as principal canyons (Glenwood, Grand), tributaries (Gunnison, Green, Gila), and reservoirs (Powell, Mead). This would better integrate a new Course page into the main page.
I do not doubt that you know something about, and you care about, the Colorado River, but I get the feeling that your knowledge is more about its lower course than its upper course. You did not include much information about the upper river, such as in the Recreation section. You also have some clear errors involving the river's upper reaches. Going forward, you can expect the usual number of edits to commence soon, especially concerning the Upper Colorado with which others are more familiar.
I see now one of the things you have done is to move, rather than delete, some material from the Course section into other sections. (Example: Mention of Grand Ditch was moved from Course to River development.) It appears that you have "rotated" the whole page from being organized geographically to be more organized by subject. Whether that is a good or bad idea (it's probably good), you could have headed off some of the unease among other editors about deleted material by explaining this on the Talk page. In fact, that would be my main advice to you next time you contemplate a time-consuming project like this on a large, important page with numerous ongoing contributors: Don't make it a surprise! Announce your plans on the Talk page, perhaps even with a link to your sandbox page as you develop it. Explain what you are doing and why. You might even get help with it, instead of criticism. The final product would be better, and would be better received too.
I've gone on too long here, but this rewrite has touched on some issues. So we all have some work to do to hopefully move forward.
(And by the way, I believe in signing everything, even criticism, unlike some above.) RogerD ( talk) 06:52, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
The third paragraph, second sentence of the article says "These works irrigate an area larger than the state of Connecticut". Come on, it has to be bigger than that! The Colorado irrigates vast areas; Connecticut is tiny. I tagged that phrase as "citation needed" but what I really meant was "this statement defies common sense, can we just get rid of it?" -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:05, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: MathewTownsend ( talk · contribs) 20:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
(I'll add some more if I see anything, but I think the article is quite well done, considering all the information it encompasses.
MathewTownsend ( talk) 20:18, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
GA review-see WP:WIAGA for criteria (and here for what they are not)
Congratulatons! MathewTownsend ( talk) 18:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Your depth and width assertions for the river are incorrect. I have traveled the entire Colorado from Granby to below Yuma, complete with sonar and range finders. The river is actually quite a deep one for being more or less free flowing except in the reservoirs. I would say the 6 - 20 foot depth figure is accurate for the Upper River in Colorado, with notable exceptions. The deepest spot in the Upper Colorado is over 90 feet near Black Rocks in Colorado, with a 50 foot pool upstream of Glenwood Springs. As far as width, 200 - 500 feet would be accurate until you get to Grand Junction, where the Gunnison joins. Downstream of here until the Green meets, the average width is more like 350 - 750 feet. The widest is just downstream of the Green Confluence at about 1040 feet.
The Lower Colorado through the Grand Canyon is VERY deep, which numerous spots over 100 feet deep. The average depth in the Canyon is 20 - 30 feet, though it is narrower here, the widest spot being about 0.25 of a mile and the narrowest under 100 feet.
Once downstream of Davis Dam until Imperial Dam, the Colorado is wide and deep. This is the area I frequent most. The average width is probably over 1000 feet, with the widest spot being downstream from the Parker Strip at around 2100 feet. The narrowest area is around Blythe at about 560 feet. The depth ranges from as shallow as 7 to as deep as 110, with the average depth probably 18 - 20 feet. That is deep for a free flowing river. Comparible rivers, such as the Missouri and Upper Mississippi are SHALLOWER in their unaltered sections. In fact they were too shallow for large barges until scores of dams turned them into a series of reservoirs. The Colorado was navigable by similiar craft year round WITHOUT a lock and dam system.
Downstream of Imperial, where most of the water is removed and enters canals, the river is similiar in size to it's headwaters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.6.221.202 ( talk) 02:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
To say the river is relatively shallow is a personal view. It is shallower than say the Columbia or Lower Mississippi, but for a river that is not equipped with a lock and dam system (which can turn even modest sized rivers such as the Verdigris in Oklahoma into a waterway navigable by large vessels) it is quite deep. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
98.127.217.40 (
talk)
08:39, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
This section of the article appears to be based on a misunderstanding of sources. The root of the problem is the failure to differentiate between prehistoric cultures known only from the archaeological record and oral tradition and modern indigenous cultures/nations, hundreds of thousands of whose members continue to live in traditional communities and speak native languages (note that the Navajo language alone has over 170,000 speakers).
While Hohokam and Ancestral Puebloan (aka Anasazi or Hisatsinom) agricultural society can be said to have collapsed before the 1500s, it is inaccurate to portray their descendants as mere relics of the past, given that nations such as the Navajo, Hopi, Havasupai, Hualapai, Mojave, etc., have continued to engage -- very successfully, in many cases -- in traditional agricultural practices long after the arrival of Europeans to the area. These nations all still call the Colorado River watershed home. All of the languages whose names for the river were removed from the lede and relegated to a past-tense reference to what the river "was called" in times long since past are still natively spoken by anywhere between 100 and 170,000 people, depending on language.
Of equal importance to note is the fact that the tribal governments of these nations are major players in the geopolitical landscape of the Southwest, in large part due to their legal standing wrt water rights to Colorado River water.
The general consensus among archaeologists nowadays is that the ancestral civilizations of the Southwest didn't "collapse" so much as they adapted to changes in climate, resulting in more dispersed settlements in some cases, and a greater focus on agricultural adaptations to very low rainfall conditions, including floodplain farming and use of especially drought-resistant crop varieties, among other techniques. These adaptations resulted in the modern indigenous societies that inhabit the area today.
Anyhow, the point is that it's incorrect to refer to prehistoric groups and modern groups as if there were no difference, and claim that their societies all collapsed as if they are no longer around - this is only half-true for the prehistoric groups, and absolutely false for the historic and modern societies.
I've made some basic changes to the article, but felt unsure about changing the Indigenous section very much as I wasn't sure how to fix it without deleting the whole section and starting over.
Thanks for reading this and taking these important facts into consideration. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 02:34, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Also I'd like to give my rationale for why it's necessary to keep native names in the infobox and first paragraph. Given that the river flows through the jurisdictions of tribal governments, as well as the territory of the Republic of Mexico, I think it's important that we give the same placement to the name of this body of water in the official languages of those political entities just as we generally do with any geographical name in the official language of the country/region/etc where it is found. -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 02:48, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Although suggested Toltec origins of the Hohokam people are an interesting theory, they are little more than that. When talking about prehistoric cultures it's important to remember that besides things that can be dug up and analyzed, or found on a rock (petroglyphs) or something of the sort, it's difficult to state anything definitively, and for this reason many conclusions that have been drawn from archeological evidence are extremely controversial within the field. As far as Toltec origins of Hohokam culture go specifically, there are some who are of the idea that Hohokam developed out of previous cultures that were already in the area and learned agricultural techniques from other cultural groups, and others who believe that they migrated from the south and brought agriculture with them. It would be somewhere between difficult and impossible to definitively prove either theory with the evidence that is currently available... -- ಠ_ಠ node.ue ಠ_ಠ ( talk) 23:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
I've been debating for a while whether to create a seperate "Names" header for this article or not, since it seems that there's no really good place to mention the multiple Native American and Spanish names for the river; also the Grand River paragraph seems to just be tacked onto the back of the history section. Suggestions are welcome. Shann º n 17:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
A blockquote of Floyd Dominy has been placed with no context adjacent to early 1900s efforts to "harness" the Colorado.
The quote: "The undammed Colorado River is] useless to anyone... I've seen all the wild rivers I ever want to see."
—Floyd Dominy, USBR commissioner from 1959–1969
The quote appears four paragraphs ahead of his tenure with the USBR and has no connection. I see the quote as a POV problem - especially with no context provided. If included in a paragraph re: the 1950-70s controversy over Lake Powell with sufficient context might be justified. But not as a misplaced, isolated quote.
Vsmith (
talk)
01:06, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
According to the map, the river reaches the sea, but nowadays the river (usually) doesn't even reach San Luis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.81.0 ( talk) 10:41, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
I see that current ref #28, which is cited eight times, is still to the general ACME mapper page (clicking the link takes you to the last map view you accessed). ACME Mapper is a tool to view USGS topo maps in a seamless manner. Seems it would not qualify as a WP:RS, rather a means of viewing USGS maps. The specific USGS maps would be reliable sources (depending on what is being sourced) and should be linked directly as the source. The maps are available for download from the USGS here. If a web based format is preferred then Topoquest would perhaps be better as they provide the USGS map name and datum used. Additionally, I see that ACME is used for the length of the Deloris and Virgin rivers while the National Map is used for the San Juan and Gunnison rivers. Both are tools for map viewing - and I don't see how they are a reference for the length of a specific river. Vsmith ( talk) 14:14, 24 June 2013 (UTC)
I noticed there was a sorting issue with the tributaries table, when I borrowed and adapted it for an English river, and realised I had not returned the favour. The problem being that the metric columns were not sorting correctly, due to the references. I have edited the table as below to solve the problem, but thought you may want to see the result before using it. Jokulhlaup ( talk) 17:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Statistics of the Colorado's longest tributaries | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Name | State | Length | Watershed | Discharge | References | |||
mi | km | mi2 | km2 | cfs | m3/s | |||
Green River | ![]() |
730 | 1,170 | 48,100 | 125,000 | 6,048 | 171.3 | [1] [2] [3] [n 1] |
Gila River | ![]() |
649 | 1,044 | 58,200 | 151,000 | 247 | 7.0 | [4] [2] [5] [n 2] |
San Juan River | ![]() |
383 | 616 | 24,600 | 64,000 | 2,192 | 62.1 | [7] [2] [8] [n 3] |
Little Colorado River | ![]() |
356 | 573 | 26,500 | 69,000 | 424 | 12.0 | [9] [2] [10] |
Dolores River | ![]() |
250 | 400 | 4,574 | 11,850 | 633 | 17.9 | [11] [2] [12] |
Gunnison River | ![]() |
164 | 264 | 7,930 | 20,500 | 2,570 | 73 | [7] [2] [13] |
Virgin River | ![]() |
160 | 260 | 13,020 | 33,700 | 239 | 6.8 | [14] [2] [15] [n 4] |
USGSbasins
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).USGSrivers
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Shannon, I assume that either you wrote this sentence or you are familiar with the information. I find it confusing. Why is the verb for "Gila" in the past tense, and what does "naturally" mean in this case? Is it the Gunnison and San Juan combined that exceed the Gila, or each one alone? Jsayre64 (talk) 22:58, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
I may be missing something, and I see that the matter has already been discussed here at least once, but it doesn't appear that the claim of a 22,500-cfs average natural flow at the mouth is supported by any of the three flow citations that the article gives in the geobox. That average flow citation did not have a URL until I found it online and added it, when I noticed that the source mentions neither 22,500 nor 16.3 million acre-feet (a statistic given at the beginning of the discharge section). Checking the USGS citation for the min. flow, it only mentions 422 cfs. The Wiltshire book, which I can read much of on Google Books, reflects the article's claim of 384,000 cfs as the max. flow, but produces no results for 22,500 or for 16.3 million. I went here and typed in the gage number at Topock, Arizona, to no avail. Then I tried selecting Mohave County, Arizona, which brought up a different gage number at a different spot on the river [5]—already trouble—that has completely different flow numbers (and, by the way, demonstrates how unbelievably dry 2012 was away from home). I ran several Google searches for 22,500 cfs on the Colorado River, and the closest I got was this USBR presentation (it's on the slide titled "Colorado River Operations"), where there isn't enough context. Jsayre64 (talk) 04:20, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Also, while I'm at it! Yesterday I came across this "streamflow map" of the lower Colorado and its various diversions and returns. It may well be out of date (1964), but is interesting in how it shows the flow sizes—the All-American Canal dramatically diverts most of the river. It also shows how most of the tiny bit left below the All-American Canal is in turn diverted at Morelos Dam. I don't think I'd rely on this older source for detailed info, but the map is pretty nice, and it gives one a good sense of the complexities of the lower river's flow: [7] (also at File:LowerColoradoRiver-waterresources-USGS1964.jpg). (I'll try to actually work on the page itself sooner or later) Pfly ( talk) 19:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to be opening another talk page section, but I am puzzled by the temperature numbers given in the second paragraph of the watershed section. I don't have access to that page in Rivers of North America, but if these are the "mean monthly high temperatures," I think the range would be much greater. Doesn't Rock Springs, Wyoming, average a high of 27.3 F in January, and doesn't Phoenix peak at 106.1 F in July? I'm citing their Wikipedia pages, which cite NOAA. Jsayre64 (talk) 17:00, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Is there a way to make the conversion template display as, say, "85 million short tons (77 million t)" instead of "85,000,000 short tons (77,000,000 t)"? The numbers in this article tend to be very large (i.e. we're talking millions of acre feet, millions of tons) so it seems it may be beneficial to reduce them. Shann o n 02:09, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Inhabitants living thanks to the Colorado : 30 millions — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.220.166.253 ( talk) 21:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
The name Colorado can be understood if it is written in Bengali.'Kaliro' is the word Kali in the possessive case, which means ' of Kali '. The word' Aado' is derived from the Sanskrit word- ' Aadya ' which means'the first/ or the beginning'. Thus the word Colorado = Kaliro + Ado = Kali's beginning or the first step of the Naga tribe into the west coast of North America. It seems that they entered the Gulf of California, sailed up to the point where the river Colorado joins the Gulf and entered the main land at the mouth of the river. So they called the river as ' the first step of the sons of Kali into the west coast' some twelve thousand years ago. 117.195.241.94 ( talk) 05:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)Bksatyanarayana
So one day I went and followed the example of many UK featured river articles and created one of those nifty route diagram templates for the Colorado at User:Shannon1/Sandbox 3. I was just seeking some opinion before inserting it into the article because it turned out to be extremely complex, possibly bigger than any routemap currently in use. Anyways, I like it because it gives a better idea of the complexities of Colorado River diversions (especially in the lower basin, which is a veritable maze of waterways, as Pfly pointed out above. Thoughts? Shann o n 02:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the recent change of the geobox picture, while I do understand the original photo made it sort of hard to see the river, the new photo also does (the shown stretch is technically part of Lake Mohave so you also can't see the river). Does anyone know of a photo, preferably aerial or at least from a high vantage point, e.g. canyon rim, where you can see the river clearly? (e.g. this or this, except that's not a picture of the Colorado River.) There aren't any on the Commons I can find. Shann o n 03:04, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
From a purely referenced based point of view almost every sentence in the paragraph "Beginning with small bands of nomadic..." is a unreferenced statement. I could put tens of citation needed tags there but this seems heavy handed and would bog things down. What do you think? Is there a single reference to cover this entire paragraph? None is provided. Personally I think that the statements in this paragraph are probably correct but I would like to have some references to look at to get more detail. Maybe just a single citation needed at the end of the paragraph or just a note (I.E. this) that some citations would be good? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtpaley ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
According to the article Francisco de Ulloa was "the first documented European to reach the Colorado River, sailed up the Gulf of California and continued a short distance into the river's delta". Well, the link to support that fact is unfortunately broken and the link FRANCISCO DE ULLOA and the Naming of California says something else, that de Ulloa never reached the Colorado, but suspected its existence because of strong current there. אביהו ( talk) 07:01, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
It would be super awesome to have a List of Crossings of the Colorado River page, analogous to /info/en/?search=List_of_fixed_crossings_of_the_Hudson_River and its kin. 71.218.4.209 ( talk) 18:24, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
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In this article: "Mormons founded the settlement of Vernal along the Green River in Utah in 1878". In the article about Vernal, Utah: "Vernal, unlike most Utah towns, was not settled by Mormons". אביהו ( talk) 05:41, 14 December 2016 (UTC)
Could someone add the fact that one of the previous names of the Colorado River was Buena Guia, as per /info/en/?search=Hernando_de_Alarc%C3%B3n ?
Also, what about Rio del Tizon as per /info/en/?search=Melchor_D%C3%ADaz ? (in case it's true) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2ED6:9470:7171:760E:F581:4BF6 ( talk) 23:44, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2ED6:9470:7171:760E:F581:4BF6 ( talk) 23:37, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
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The map is incorrect. The map names Fort Collins as "Boulder".
Boulder is actually situated where the "y" in Granby is written. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.127.21.51 ( talk) 17:42, 9 May 2018 (UTC)