![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
*side note in reference to legality:
"Cold water extraction is used legally and recommended for people with liver problems who can die from the extras put in painkillers such as Vicodin or Tylenol 3 if using higher doses; hence how I ended up here because I had no idea what cold water extraction was. Thank you for the explanations." [FYI, Cold water extraction should be used even if you don't have liver problems to avoid getting them in the future.] {[ Yenglin ]} January 20, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.9.213.190 ( talk) 06:28, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: PMC format (
link)
I know this may sound a tad petty, but some of the terminology used in the description of the possible side-effects of intravenous codeine use don't seem befitting of an encyclopedic document.
Cheers, -- Der Leiter 06:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
yes, and codeine (and most opiates) are much more soluble. That's the point of the extraction 84.92.137.39 20:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
[YES]AFAIK, 'cold water extraction' isn't recognized by chemists, but is more of a "kitchen chemistry" way to purify codiene tablets employed by drug users. I don't know that this is deserving of an article. If I'm wrong, it definatelt needs expansion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.160.28.71 ( talk • contribs) 08:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC).
[NO]If this isn't the the place to detail what hot cold water extraction (or any other drug/weapon/ANYTHING) process, then I don't know what would be the appropriate place. Wikipedia is about education, what you do with it is up to you, not Wikipedia. If we were to go running around deleting things on Wikipedia because they are "drug abuse-friendly", how is that any different from censorship? An open forum encyclopedia is not about censorship. Educate yourself, you owe it to yourself to not allow yourself to be ignorant of things out there.
[NO]Cold water extraction is a standard technique in quantitative chemistry. The differential solubilities of different substances at different temperatures is commonly used by chemists to separate those substances. Furthermore, it is part of the educational curriculum. The Royal Society of Chemistry for example provides an educational document (intended for high school students) at http://www.chemsoc.org/pdf/LearnNet/rsc/paracetamol.pdf which describes in great detail, procedures to isolate paracetamol from other substances. I quote from page 4: "When the hot solution is cooled down, it reaches the temperature at which paracetamol reaches its limit of solubility and therefore starts to crystallise out." If it's good enough for the RSC, it's good enough for wikipedia, I say. As for the issue of censorship generally, the illegality of the matter described is totally irrelevant. Lots of illegal activities are described in wikipedia and it helps law-abiding persons such as you and me to be aware of that activity. As for whether it could be harmful to describe the procedures, well I am NOT opposed to censorship in principle. Censorship is sometimes the most ethical course of action even though it can weaken democracy. But let's get our priorities right. You could at a pinch argue that removing bomb-making instructions from wikipedia might be worthwhile even though it's elsewhere on the net anyway, but stopping Australians from purifying a drug that is available in pure form in pharmacies in other 1st world countries is not exactly law-enforcement's highest priority and that's why the police don't bother to prosecute for possession of this drug, despite it being illegal. I recommend that there be no censorship on Wikipedia for any matters concerning drugs, legal or illegal. Tmrussell 09:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
[NO]I have to agree strongly that this issue is about Wikipedia being an unbiased informational resource to the public. The very suggestion that something be removed on the grounds that it makes Wikipedia look "drug abuse-friendly" is in explicit violation of content neutrality. Being a consumer that actually wants to know what western medicine is trying to do to my body, I was researching the vicodin that was prescribed for post-knee surgery pain. I actually read the edited version, and was hoping for more, as I know my body does not do well with acetominiphen, so I would prefer to use ibuprofin. I found the cached version on answers.com and was dismayed to see the info had been censored with the spurious commnent "Technical description not an encyclopedic topic". Please note the following definitions of "encyclopedic":
broad in scope or content; "encyclopedic knowledge" http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
An encyclopedia (alternatively encyclopaedia/encyclopædia) is a written compendium of knowledge. The term comes from the Greek εγκύκλιος παιδεία (enkuklios paideia), literally "in a circle of instruction", and more generally connoting "a well-rounded education". Many encyclopedias are titled Cyclopaedia and the terms are interchangeable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedic
[NO] Wikipedia being internet based has the flexibility to have a lot of information you wouldn't put in a paper encyclopedia due to size constraints. Like articles on popular TV shows for example. This article isn't going to encourage anyone that wasn't already interested in the subject matter to try it. If anything keeping this article might make people safer through knowledge. BWF89 12:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
[NO] I've removed the drug references that I believe are irrelevant to the article, kept the ones I think are, rewrote the process so that it is technically accurate and searched for a long time to find a credible source of information on this extraction. I have not found a credible source that directly states this method of extraction for opiates. It would be helpful if someone could find this information, because it would be a shame to have to take down this portion of the article due to government censorship of other sources. Tmrussell does has a very good link to a credible article with information on paracetamol extraction which I will try to include to make this article more complete. But I am looking for other cold water extraction uses to make this more than just part of the recreational drug users handbook. Nickstuckert 17:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe that there is even any discussion about censoring Wikipedia. What next, censorship of the articles about sex or pornography? Fuzzform 03:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Censorship = The right of the people to speak a they wish to give information, be it information others do not like. Censor ship hides the problem and and result, and it educates others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.221.130.35 ( talk) 07:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the info, works great with nurofen plus —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.177.151.101 ( talk) 06:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
works with any co-codamol (paracetamol & codeine) you can buy from the pharmacy too.. just avoid any containing caffeine
"...used to extract hydrocodone (which is insoluble in water)..." hydrocodone is an opiate salt... and so... "These extractions are possible because opiate salts dissolve in water far more readily than acetaminophen and ibuprofen." I was wondering the solubility of ibuprofen, it's not in that article.-- x1987x( talk) 03:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Can Wiki tell me how to roll a joint, next?
Watch the film "Kids." There is an in-detail set of instructions and a jamming soundtrack to boot! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.83.122.38 ( talk) 22:42, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
You really showed your intelligence. How can you even compare a scientific technique to that of rolling tobacco?-- 78.86.159.199 ( talk) 02:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Crumble up the weed, place it in the paper with the sticky side up and away from you. Roll the weed back and forth until a round shape forms, lick the sticky strip, and glue it together. I'm not sure if a page on rolling joints would be appropriate, because wikipedia is an encyclopedia which includes common laboratory techniques, such as fractional crystallization, but not DIY pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.191.137.130 ( talk) 20:55, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The instructional information regarding the CWE was deleted by a previous user (OAC)who claimed that it was in "non-encyclopaedic structure and acts as a guide to recreational opiate use-. should not be on 'pedia, or needs major clean-up, or needs to be generalized, not outlined in a tutorial."
While I agree that the writing style of that section did seem to require a revamping to a more appropriate tone, I would question why someone would suggest that tutorial style instructions are not appropriate for Wikipedia and site the "The 85 Ways to Tie a Tie" page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_85_Ways_to_Tie_a_Tie) as a clear example of instructional information being provided on Wikipedia. If there are specific Wikipedia guidelines that would justify such information's removal either due to their instructional nature, or which would sanction the removal of that information for any other reasons, I would challenge someone to present it.
JeffieFreedom ( talk) 21:21, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
The page is confusing, because the codeine and paracetamol containing tablets don't contain codeine freebase, rather codeine phosphate.
The codeine phosphate salt is far more soluble than the stated 9mg/ml at 21C - which is actually the solubility of Codeine freebase. Codeine phosphate has a solubility closer to 4000mg/ml ( http://www.janssen-ortho.com/JOI/pdf_files/tylenol_E.pdf page 14).
Therefore, one could extract all 256mg of Codeine Phosphate in a standard 8/500mg Co-codamol pack of 32 in a comparatively tiny amount of liquid.
Even if the user starts the CWE process with 50ml water, (which, theoretically could hold 200g codeine phosphate), the maximum amount of paracetamol consumed will be 450mg (50ml*9mg/ml=450mg), which is less than 1 adult dose.
93.97.226.17 ( talk) 01:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I agree. The whole section on acetaminophen-codeine extraction is severely flawed; the whole argument is invalid because the article refers to the solubility of freebase codeine rather than codeine sulfate. Codeine sulfate, and pretty much any prescribed codeine salt (present in non-basic conditions) is more soluble by several orders of magnitude. The editors should review their general chemistry texts in order to become more familiar with the behavior of amine functionalities in aqueous solutions.
Hekog (
talk)
17:05, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm still confused as to why this article is even present. It's just a dumbed down version of recrystallization with all references to actual chemistry omitted. I don't think Wikipedia should support information like this which could lead to bodily harm because someone fails to understand the basic chemistry of pharmaceuticals like amine salts and their solubility. At a minimum this article should provide a reference to the recrystallization article. Kasooi ( talk) 05:35, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
*side note in reference to legality:
"Cold water extraction is used legally and recommended for people with liver problems who can die from the extras put in painkillers such as Vicodin or Tylenol 3 if using higher doses; hence how I ended up here because I had no idea what cold water extraction was. Thank you for the explanations." [FYI, Cold water extraction should be used even if you don't have liver problems to avoid getting them in the future.] {[ Yenglin ]} January 20, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.9.213.190 ( talk) 06:28, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: PMC format (
link)
I know this may sound a tad petty, but some of the terminology used in the description of the possible side-effects of intravenous codeine use don't seem befitting of an encyclopedic document.
Cheers, -- Der Leiter 06:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
yes, and codeine (and most opiates) are much more soluble. That's the point of the extraction 84.92.137.39 20:19, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
[YES]AFAIK, 'cold water extraction' isn't recognized by chemists, but is more of a "kitchen chemistry" way to purify codiene tablets employed by drug users. I don't know that this is deserving of an article. If I'm wrong, it definatelt needs expansion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.160.28.71 ( talk • contribs) 08:54, 24 May 2006 (UTC).
[NO]If this isn't the the place to detail what hot cold water extraction (or any other drug/weapon/ANYTHING) process, then I don't know what would be the appropriate place. Wikipedia is about education, what you do with it is up to you, not Wikipedia. If we were to go running around deleting things on Wikipedia because they are "drug abuse-friendly", how is that any different from censorship? An open forum encyclopedia is not about censorship. Educate yourself, you owe it to yourself to not allow yourself to be ignorant of things out there.
[NO]Cold water extraction is a standard technique in quantitative chemistry. The differential solubilities of different substances at different temperatures is commonly used by chemists to separate those substances. Furthermore, it is part of the educational curriculum. The Royal Society of Chemistry for example provides an educational document (intended for high school students) at http://www.chemsoc.org/pdf/LearnNet/rsc/paracetamol.pdf which describes in great detail, procedures to isolate paracetamol from other substances. I quote from page 4: "When the hot solution is cooled down, it reaches the temperature at which paracetamol reaches its limit of solubility and therefore starts to crystallise out." If it's good enough for the RSC, it's good enough for wikipedia, I say. As for the issue of censorship generally, the illegality of the matter described is totally irrelevant. Lots of illegal activities are described in wikipedia and it helps law-abiding persons such as you and me to be aware of that activity. As for whether it could be harmful to describe the procedures, well I am NOT opposed to censorship in principle. Censorship is sometimes the most ethical course of action even though it can weaken democracy. But let's get our priorities right. You could at a pinch argue that removing bomb-making instructions from wikipedia might be worthwhile even though it's elsewhere on the net anyway, but stopping Australians from purifying a drug that is available in pure form in pharmacies in other 1st world countries is not exactly law-enforcement's highest priority and that's why the police don't bother to prosecute for possession of this drug, despite it being illegal. I recommend that there be no censorship on Wikipedia for any matters concerning drugs, legal or illegal. Tmrussell 09:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
[NO]I have to agree strongly that this issue is about Wikipedia being an unbiased informational resource to the public. The very suggestion that something be removed on the grounds that it makes Wikipedia look "drug abuse-friendly" is in explicit violation of content neutrality. Being a consumer that actually wants to know what western medicine is trying to do to my body, I was researching the vicodin that was prescribed for post-knee surgery pain. I actually read the edited version, and was hoping for more, as I know my body does not do well with acetominiphen, so I would prefer to use ibuprofin. I found the cached version on answers.com and was dismayed to see the info had been censored with the spurious commnent "Technical description not an encyclopedic topic". Please note the following definitions of "encyclopedic":
broad in scope or content; "encyclopedic knowledge" http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
An encyclopedia (alternatively encyclopaedia/encyclopædia) is a written compendium of knowledge. The term comes from the Greek εγκύκλιος παιδεία (enkuklios paideia), literally "in a circle of instruction", and more generally connoting "a well-rounded education". Many encyclopedias are titled Cyclopaedia and the terms are interchangeable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedic
[NO] Wikipedia being internet based has the flexibility to have a lot of information you wouldn't put in a paper encyclopedia due to size constraints. Like articles on popular TV shows for example. This article isn't going to encourage anyone that wasn't already interested in the subject matter to try it. If anything keeping this article might make people safer through knowledge. BWF89 12:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
[NO] I've removed the drug references that I believe are irrelevant to the article, kept the ones I think are, rewrote the process so that it is technically accurate and searched for a long time to find a credible source of information on this extraction. I have not found a credible source that directly states this method of extraction for opiates. It would be helpful if someone could find this information, because it would be a shame to have to take down this portion of the article due to government censorship of other sources. Tmrussell does has a very good link to a credible article with information on paracetamol extraction which I will try to include to make this article more complete. But I am looking for other cold water extraction uses to make this more than just part of the recreational drug users handbook. Nickstuckert 17:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe that there is even any discussion about censoring Wikipedia. What next, censorship of the articles about sex or pornography? Fuzzform 03:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Censorship = The right of the people to speak a they wish to give information, be it information others do not like. Censor ship hides the problem and and result, and it educates others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.221.130.35 ( talk) 07:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the info, works great with nurofen plus —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.177.151.101 ( talk) 06:15, 31 January 2007 (UTC).
works with any co-codamol (paracetamol & codeine) you can buy from the pharmacy too.. just avoid any containing caffeine
"...used to extract hydrocodone (which is insoluble in water)..." hydrocodone is an opiate salt... and so... "These extractions are possible because opiate salts dissolve in water far more readily than acetaminophen and ibuprofen." I was wondering the solubility of ibuprofen, it's not in that article.-- x1987x( talk) 03:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Can Wiki tell me how to roll a joint, next?
Watch the film "Kids." There is an in-detail set of instructions and a jamming soundtrack to boot! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.83.122.38 ( talk) 22:42, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
You really showed your intelligence. How can you even compare a scientific technique to that of rolling tobacco?-- 78.86.159.199 ( talk) 02:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Crumble up the weed, place it in the paper with the sticky side up and away from you. Roll the weed back and forth until a round shape forms, lick the sticky strip, and glue it together. I'm not sure if a page on rolling joints would be appropriate, because wikipedia is an encyclopedia which includes common laboratory techniques, such as fractional crystallization, but not DIY pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.191.137.130 ( talk) 20:55, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
The instructional information regarding the CWE was deleted by a previous user (OAC)who claimed that it was in "non-encyclopaedic structure and acts as a guide to recreational opiate use-. should not be on 'pedia, or needs major clean-up, or needs to be generalized, not outlined in a tutorial."
While I agree that the writing style of that section did seem to require a revamping to a more appropriate tone, I would question why someone would suggest that tutorial style instructions are not appropriate for Wikipedia and site the "The 85 Ways to Tie a Tie" page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_85_Ways_to_Tie_a_Tie) as a clear example of instructional information being provided on Wikipedia. If there are specific Wikipedia guidelines that would justify such information's removal either due to their instructional nature, or which would sanction the removal of that information for any other reasons, I would challenge someone to present it.
JeffieFreedom ( talk) 21:21, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
The page is confusing, because the codeine and paracetamol containing tablets don't contain codeine freebase, rather codeine phosphate.
The codeine phosphate salt is far more soluble than the stated 9mg/ml at 21C - which is actually the solubility of Codeine freebase. Codeine phosphate has a solubility closer to 4000mg/ml ( http://www.janssen-ortho.com/JOI/pdf_files/tylenol_E.pdf page 14).
Therefore, one could extract all 256mg of Codeine Phosphate in a standard 8/500mg Co-codamol pack of 32 in a comparatively tiny amount of liquid.
Even if the user starts the CWE process with 50ml water, (which, theoretically could hold 200g codeine phosphate), the maximum amount of paracetamol consumed will be 450mg (50ml*9mg/ml=450mg), which is less than 1 adult dose.
93.97.226.17 ( talk) 01:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I agree. The whole section on acetaminophen-codeine extraction is severely flawed; the whole argument is invalid because the article refers to the solubility of freebase codeine rather than codeine sulfate. Codeine sulfate, and pretty much any prescribed codeine salt (present in non-basic conditions) is more soluble by several orders of magnitude. The editors should review their general chemistry texts in order to become more familiar with the behavior of amine functionalities in aqueous solutions.
Hekog (
talk)
17:05, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm still confused as to why this article is even present. It's just a dumbed down version of recrystallization with all references to actual chemistry omitted. I don't think Wikipedia should support information like this which could lead to bodily harm because someone fails to understand the basic chemistry of pharmaceuticals like amine salts and their solubility. At a minimum this article should provide a reference to the recrystallization article. Kasooi ( talk) 05:35, 31 August 2011 (UTC)