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This seems a pretty decent and complete article; good work! I guess the only thing I think that it needs is a diagram for the "Experimental set-up and observations" section, showing the experimental setup. Also, in the lead section,, maybe there could be a little more expansion on why Cold Fusion would be such a good thing (tm) if it worked; I know it's mentioned, but perhaps it could be played up more? And for fun, Cold Fusion in the movies (I'm thinking of The Saint here...) — Matt 02:38, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Pcarbonn, I removed consistently, because I wasn't aware of any experiments that were even an attempt at a verifiable setup that had claimed a large net release of energy. What reputed scientist have claimed a large net release of energy for even a few of their tries? I do like the addition of convincingly because clearly none of them have been able to convince many people that the results were real. - Taxman 12:19, Jul 31, 2004 (UTC)
The last bit of this section seems to be just a commentary, not a statement of fact, and I'm not sure that it's necessary:
It's the word should that rings alarm bells. Whose point of view is this? Who says that the researcher's credentials are more important than the reproducibility of his results? The second sentence looks as if it was tacked on as an answer to the first, in which case we have a dialogue here, not a statement. -- Heron 13:26, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Someone here wrote:
That is incorrect. Many experimental results are taken for granted even though reproducibility is much less than 100%. For example, the success rate for most transistor production lines in the mid-1950s was well below 50%, and for some devices it was below 10% [Riordan & Hoddeson] but no one questioned the existence of the transitor. Reproducibility for cloning mammals today varies from 0.1 to 3%, but no one doubts that cloning works, and the results are real. (See http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/cloning/cloningrisks/). A few modern experiments, such as the top quark findings at Fermilab, have not been replicated at all, and no attempt to replicate them is planned, because the experiments cost so much money, and because it would be impossible to duplicate the Fermilab equipment for an independent test. However, the results are accepted by most scientists despite these limitations.
In cold fusion, the transmutation results reported by Iwamura et al. (Mitsubishi) cannot be independently replicated in full because the experimental apparatus costs roughly $20 million and requires a team of experts to operate. However the results have been confirmed by other labs in Japan, Italy and France using their own mass spectrometers. Confirmation is not the same as replication, but it does enhance confidence in the results.
- Jed
We aren't trying to blame this whole thing on Americans, are we? Martin Fleischmann FRS is a Briton (Imperial College, Southampton University) of Czech birth. I couldn't immediately see a non-clumsy way to put in both nationalities, so I just deleted the wrong attribution, pending work by someone who cares. Dandrake 00:00, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC)
IMHO the intro is too long and not clear enough; but then, I don't like long intro sections, and most people do, it seems.
More to the point, the change by Stevenj went too far in avoiding the implication that cold fusion is an established fact. It is established, in the impractical form of muon-catalyzed fusion, but not in the Fleischmann-Pons version. Dandrake 07:59, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
As written the beginning seems reasonably neutral, but deeper into the article it becomes clear it was written by a Cold Fusion supporter.
Some suggestions for improvement:
-- Doom 20:26, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
Jed, I believe that the term 'ash' refers to fusion products and waste materials. For example, in one paper I've read, spectral analysis of the palladium electrode before and after the experiment found post-experiment isotopes that were not there prior to the experiment, including Ag-110, lead, rhodium, sodium, and a number of other element isotopes that the Russian researchers theorize all fit a theory that CF involves a combination of both fusion and fission between palladium, multiple deuterium atoms, and fusion/fission into every new isotope found, post-experiment. User:Mlorrey
In the third paragraph of the introduction, we find the phrase "produces only small but hard to manage amounts of radioactive waste". I'm having trouble discerning the intent here. Did the author mean to say that the waste, though small in quantity, was especially hard to manage? If so, it doesn't clearly belong in a list of advantages. But perhaps the writer meant "small amounts of hard to manage radioactive waste", in which case the "hard to manage" qualification feels unnecessary: it's clear from context that radioactive waste is bad.
I think I favor "produces only small amounts of radioactive waste" here, but without knowing the writer's intent I'm reluctant to edit.
These aren't quite the same thing.
The following edit reverted material, but I did not know what of it was valid: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Cold_fusion&diff=5426435&oldid=5424946 I may move back in the parts that seem reasonable if I have a chance, but I would like to see what other's think. Clearly a POV was being pushed by this revert. - Taxman 14:38, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
For clarity, here is the material removed by the anon. It has partially been put back in since, but it seems there is a bit more information here, especially the quote by P&F and the journal citation. I am not familiar enough with the experiments to add it back myself:
It would seem both of these points would be fairly easy to fact check and to put back in if correct. - Taxman 22:48, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
What's the source for the statement about 2.45-MeV neutrons from conventional fusion (in Experimental Setup)? F&P didn't have any equipment for a neutron energy spectrum. Their report of neutron production was based on gamma radiation from absorption of neutrons by hydrogen in the water. Their initial report put that peak at 2.5 MeV; physicists pointed out that that's the wrong figure; their published report put the peak at 2.2 MeV, the right value. This is from Close's book, which of course is out of date. But anyone with a Chemical Rubber handbook and a spreadsheet can confirm that gamma energy in a few minutes. Dandrake 18:06, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
I put that edit in. F&P did claim that their experiment produced 2.45 MeV neutrons, a claim allegedly based on gamma ray detection ( http://www.totse.com/en/fringe/fringe_science/fusion.html the J Electroanalytical Chem article in which they did so). A relevant quote:
"3) Fig. 1A illustrates the gamma-ray spectra which have been recorded in regions above the water bath adjacent to the electrolytic cells and this spectrum confirms that 2.45 MeV neutrons are indeed generated in the electrodes by reaction (vi). These gamma-rays are generated by the reaction (vii). "
I was attempting to describe what they initially claimed to observe. I now realize that the parenthetical statement after that is incorrect- it was foolish of me to expect they'd gotten that right. That was, however, the reason P&F included that bit of experimental 'evidence'.
They may well have changed their story in a later publication, but I was intending to describe the original report.- 130.20.71.114 19:00 Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
Aha, that explains it. Thanks for the citation. There's a comment in Close's book to the effect that the physicists had to explain to P & F that the energy of the neutrons was not relevant to the reaction that yields gammas or to the gamma energy; this seemed to me quite cryptic. The reference you provided makes it clear where they were assuming that it was related. And that's how they were inferring the 2.45 MeV energy without having any means for direct measurement of neutron energies. It follows that this report of neutrons with the proper energy was simply wrong (apart from their getting the gamma energy wrong), a non-sequitur. The easiest and most informative step from here is to note the error; so I've done it. Dandrake 04:31, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
Why is the bubbling of gas to stir the solution referred to as sparging? (In the experimental setup section) What's being done there has nothing to do with sparging as described in the Wikipedia entry. Plain "bubbling" would be both clearer and more accurate, if there's not some good reason for the other term. Dandrake 07:28, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that "What's being done there has nothing to do with sparging"?
- Easy there. No offence meant. My evidence is the Wikipedia article on sparging, which says nothing of using bubbles to achieve mixing. It seems to me that the removal of anything from the system (as implied by the sparging article) was the exact opposite of what they needed to do, given the danger of explosion if the liquid level got too low. Of course if F & P used the term, that settles it; I'm not teaching chemists their subject. But the two articles at the moment are confusingly inconsistent, as a non-chemist will find out if he conscientiously tries to find out what this "sparging" stuff is. As you say, the sparging article needs to be amended. (Unless someone who knows these things says that F & P's usage was non-standard, which would call for different changes.) BTW there surely can't be copyright issues with a link to the article? It would be a fine thing to have. Dandrake 18:44, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
Well, I'm a chemist but not an experimentalist, so I'm not exactly an expert, but my understanding and interpretation is that sparging in this context refers to the action of bubbling an inert gas through a liquid. I don't think it is specific to doing so for a particular purpose as was implied in the previous edit of the sparging page. In my very brief time doing experimental work we called it sparging when we bubbled nitrogen through refluxing solvents to remove dissolved oxygen gas. (This method isn't perfect, but removes very nearly all the oxygen over the course of a few days.) I do not believe that allowing the bubbles created at the cathode to leave the solution would be classified as sparging, however, and that interpretation doesn't match the context of P&F's claim that gas sparging was used "where necessary".
Except for this, I've never heard of using sparging as a stirring method, but I'm far from an expert so I can't state whether or how often it is used for that purpose. However, lack of adequate stirring was a major criticism leveled at P&F by a number of experimental electrochemists, including Nate Lewis. This was later considered by a majority of chemists to be a non-fusion explanation of the thermochemical data which purported to show excess heat- there was no excess heat, just an inadequately stirred cell which was hotter near the thermometer than elsewhere.
What I meant about copyright is that I'm suspicious that the person hosting the link I referred to above is doing so in violation of copyright, though I have no evidence either way. Perhaps putting the link on the main page is okay anyhow, I'm just not sure what the usual practice here is. Put it in if you like.
I also updated the sparging wiki page, I'm not entirely happy with it but it's what I know on the subject. 130.20.71.114 21:10, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
- Now I see the point. (I seem to be saying that a lot currently. That's science for you.) And F & P's application of the the term doesn't contradict the one-sentence definition that introduces sparging. I may want to stick a "(bubbling)" into the text, though, as the technical word is so unfamiliar and doesn't seem to convey a lot more. As to copyright, I agree that we con't want links to copyvio pages; it would have to be checked before it'sa allowed into the article. Dandrake 17:40, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)
- I find that the site has a reasonable copyright policy; good enough, anyway, that linking to them should be acceptable. So I've added one, whcih should be zapped if anyone finds out the policy is misleading. Dandrake 01:01, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
There's an excellent reason to refer to it as sparging: that was the method P&F actually reported that they used to stir the cells. From the J Electroanal Chem article above, here's a quote which I originally put into the page in my 01:36, 25 Aug 2004 edit (but which was subsequently reverted):
"Stirring in these experiments (and in those listed under 1)) was achieved, where necessary, by gas sparging using electrolytically generated D2."
In my second attempt to get this information included on the page I avoided using quotations, as that seems not to be the style used here.
You are correct that the wiki definition of sparging doesn't match the pre-edit description of (lack of) stirring, but the edit to describe the process used as sparging was a correction rather than a clarification. The production of bubbles on the cathode is not sparging- the original version of the page was in error. Not even P&F made the incredible claim the older version of this page did, that "the bubbling action of the gas kept the electrolyte well mixed and of a uniform temperature". It may well be that P&F never actually sparged there cells at all ("where necessary" is quite ambiguous) but they did include that sentence, presumably to anticipate objections concerning inadequate stirring. The "where necessary" part of the article revision was taken explicitly from the P&F quote above. It would be nice to link the P&F article in the article rather than here in the discussion, but I'm concerned about copyright issues.
The wiki definition of sparging should probably be updated as well. 130.20.71.114 16:45, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
The article has a presentation of reproducibility and other issues that's disjointed and confused; in effect, the article argues with itself, which is a too-common parody of NPOV. I'd have voted negative on WP:FAC if I hadn't been occupied elsewhere; but it has benefitted from all the attention, so who can figure?
I'm trying to work out a treatment of what reproducibility is about, briefer than the main article (or than it ought to be) and in context, for the reader who doesn't have much background. I find it easy to give examples of work that had no good theory behind it, was easily reproduced, and was accepted by the community; radioactivity will do, with its apparent violation of conservation of energy. From the same period there's a classic of work that had no theory, was not widely reproducible, was not generally accepted, and turned out to be spurious: N-rays. To show how the scientific process works, I'm looking for a good example of a contrasting situation: no theory, initially poor reproducibility, general non-acceptance, and eventual vindication and acceptance. Continental drift has some of that quality, but the problem wasn't reproducibility, really. Does anyone have a good example? I presume that the cold-fusion literature would provide something, but I haven't run into it. Dandrake 01:18, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
Removing the following paragraph:
This has no visible relevance to the section. If anyone finds a better place, in the context of some dispute to which it's material, please fix. Dandrake 22:54, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
See:
Szpak, S., et al. Polarized D+/Pd-D2O System: Hot Spots and “Mini-Explosions”. in Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 2003. Cambridge, MA: LENR-CANR.org. lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSpolarizedd.pdf
See also PowerPoint slides for same, and movie clip from IR camera, here: lenr-canr.org/Collections/USNavy.htm
to summarize the pro fusion argument: some experements show excess heat, but this has not been proven. However, current physics knowlege is that huge initialization energy is required (its also suspicious that the counterargument to this is that current understanding of fusion physics is wrong). Also, electrolysis of heavy water is just oxidation and reduction, a chemical reaction involving valance electrons, which has nothing to do with nuclear reaction and nuclear forces. Also, "generaly cold, localy hot", is misleading because its hot fussion on a microscopic scale, and the only example of generaly cold fussion has nothing to do with electrolytic fussion (so there is really only one established prcess by which this can occur). Has a person with a physics or chemistry degree looked at this and found the pro argument convincing? 209.197.155.118
The DOE report recently added can be used to improve the NPOV and factual correctness of this article. It asked for the best available data and evidence from the specified proponents of cold fusion and then peer reviewed it in a few ways. A 5 page summary pdf is available here. An important excerpt is the following:
I suppose it is interesting to note that at least one of the reviewers was swayed by the evidence and did accept that there was some effect beyond the "ordinary chemical or solid state sources". Overall, two thirds of the reviewers did not find the evidence compelling, one did, and the rest were somewhat convinced.
For the second review question, the standout quote is "The reviewers raised serious concerns regarding the assumptions postulated in the proposed theoretical model for the explanation for 4HE production"
Good stuff. - Taxman 03:23, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Note that the DoE did not publish the actual commments made by the review panel members, but the New Energy Times and LENR-CANR did. They are here:
2004 US Department of Energy Cold fusion Review Reviewer Comments.
lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DOEusdepartme.pdf
130 papers were submitted to the DoE by cold fusion researchers during the review. They are listed here:
lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Hagelsteinnewphysica.pdf
Full text versions of 41 of these papers are available here:
lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm
I have trimmed several external links to news articles about cold fusion developments. (We could probably trim more!) They were repetitive and superseded by events, and wikipedia isn't a link farm. In general, links should be limited to deep background or source information. - DavidWBrooks 18:18, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While it's true that the page is quite long, I must disagree with Susurrus' removal of the "Arguments in the controversy" section for a number of reasons (Indeed, I think such a dramatic change in a feature article probably should have been mentioned here first):
First, if sub-pages are decided to be appropriate, I believe that the section heading should remain and a summary paragraph should remain in the main body- A good example of this might be the
United States Constitution page has sub-pages for
Preamble to the United States Constitution and
United States Bill of Rights but retains a summary giving the gist of the material along with a link.
Secondly, the choice of which material should go onto a sub-page seems inappropriate to me- the arguments in the controversy section is the most important part of the article, and should remain on the main page. I would prefer to see almost any other section be summarized- perhaps the "Experimental Setup and Observations" which is rather technical and the "continuing Efforts" which is mostly a list of people rather than an explanation.
Finally, although I obviously don't know what Susurrus' motivations are, I believe there is an appearance of bias in this action of the removal of most of the skeptical material to a poorly labelled, easy to overlook link while keeping all of the nonskeptical material in the main body of the article. --
Noren 17:18, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Prior reference linked to an incomplete version of the document. See Pg9 (Errata) for explanation of "Hawkins." -sk
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
This seems a pretty decent and complete article; good work! I guess the only thing I think that it needs is a diagram for the "Experimental set-up and observations" section, showing the experimental setup. Also, in the lead section,, maybe there could be a little more expansion on why Cold Fusion would be such a good thing (tm) if it worked; I know it's mentioned, but perhaps it could be played up more? And for fun, Cold Fusion in the movies (I'm thinking of The Saint here...) — Matt 02:38, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Pcarbonn, I removed consistently, because I wasn't aware of any experiments that were even an attempt at a verifiable setup that had claimed a large net release of energy. What reputed scientist have claimed a large net release of energy for even a few of their tries? I do like the addition of convincingly because clearly none of them have been able to convince many people that the results were real. - Taxman 12:19, Jul 31, 2004 (UTC)
The last bit of this section seems to be just a commentary, not a statement of fact, and I'm not sure that it's necessary:
It's the word should that rings alarm bells. Whose point of view is this? Who says that the researcher's credentials are more important than the reproducibility of his results? The second sentence looks as if it was tacked on as an answer to the first, in which case we have a dialogue here, not a statement. -- Heron 13:26, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Someone here wrote:
That is incorrect. Many experimental results are taken for granted even though reproducibility is much less than 100%. For example, the success rate for most transistor production lines in the mid-1950s was well below 50%, and for some devices it was below 10% [Riordan & Hoddeson] but no one questioned the existence of the transitor. Reproducibility for cloning mammals today varies from 0.1 to 3%, but no one doubts that cloning works, and the results are real. (See http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/units/cloning/cloningrisks/). A few modern experiments, such as the top quark findings at Fermilab, have not been replicated at all, and no attempt to replicate them is planned, because the experiments cost so much money, and because it would be impossible to duplicate the Fermilab equipment for an independent test. However, the results are accepted by most scientists despite these limitations.
In cold fusion, the transmutation results reported by Iwamura et al. (Mitsubishi) cannot be independently replicated in full because the experimental apparatus costs roughly $20 million and requires a team of experts to operate. However the results have been confirmed by other labs in Japan, Italy and France using their own mass spectrometers. Confirmation is not the same as replication, but it does enhance confidence in the results.
- Jed
We aren't trying to blame this whole thing on Americans, are we? Martin Fleischmann FRS is a Briton (Imperial College, Southampton University) of Czech birth. I couldn't immediately see a non-clumsy way to put in both nationalities, so I just deleted the wrong attribution, pending work by someone who cares. Dandrake 00:00, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC)
IMHO the intro is too long and not clear enough; but then, I don't like long intro sections, and most people do, it seems.
More to the point, the change by Stevenj went too far in avoiding the implication that cold fusion is an established fact. It is established, in the impractical form of muon-catalyzed fusion, but not in the Fleischmann-Pons version. Dandrake 07:59, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
As written the beginning seems reasonably neutral, but deeper into the article it becomes clear it was written by a Cold Fusion supporter.
Some suggestions for improvement:
-- Doom 20:26, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
Jed, I believe that the term 'ash' refers to fusion products and waste materials. For example, in one paper I've read, spectral analysis of the palladium electrode before and after the experiment found post-experiment isotopes that were not there prior to the experiment, including Ag-110, lead, rhodium, sodium, and a number of other element isotopes that the Russian researchers theorize all fit a theory that CF involves a combination of both fusion and fission between palladium, multiple deuterium atoms, and fusion/fission into every new isotope found, post-experiment. User:Mlorrey
In the third paragraph of the introduction, we find the phrase "produces only small but hard to manage amounts of radioactive waste". I'm having trouble discerning the intent here. Did the author mean to say that the waste, though small in quantity, was especially hard to manage? If so, it doesn't clearly belong in a list of advantages. But perhaps the writer meant "small amounts of hard to manage radioactive waste", in which case the "hard to manage" qualification feels unnecessary: it's clear from context that radioactive waste is bad.
I think I favor "produces only small amounts of radioactive waste" here, but without knowing the writer's intent I'm reluctant to edit.
These aren't quite the same thing.
The following edit reverted material, but I did not know what of it was valid: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Cold_fusion&diff=5426435&oldid=5424946 I may move back in the parts that seem reasonable if I have a chance, but I would like to see what other's think. Clearly a POV was being pushed by this revert. - Taxman 14:38, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
For clarity, here is the material removed by the anon. It has partially been put back in since, but it seems there is a bit more information here, especially the quote by P&F and the journal citation. I am not familiar enough with the experiments to add it back myself:
It would seem both of these points would be fairly easy to fact check and to put back in if correct. - Taxman 22:48, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
What's the source for the statement about 2.45-MeV neutrons from conventional fusion (in Experimental Setup)? F&P didn't have any equipment for a neutron energy spectrum. Their report of neutron production was based on gamma radiation from absorption of neutrons by hydrogen in the water. Their initial report put that peak at 2.5 MeV; physicists pointed out that that's the wrong figure; their published report put the peak at 2.2 MeV, the right value. This is from Close's book, which of course is out of date. But anyone with a Chemical Rubber handbook and a spreadsheet can confirm that gamma energy in a few minutes. Dandrake 18:06, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
I put that edit in. F&P did claim that their experiment produced 2.45 MeV neutrons, a claim allegedly based on gamma ray detection ( http://www.totse.com/en/fringe/fringe_science/fusion.html the J Electroanalytical Chem article in which they did so). A relevant quote:
"3) Fig. 1A illustrates the gamma-ray spectra which have been recorded in regions above the water bath adjacent to the electrolytic cells and this spectrum confirms that 2.45 MeV neutrons are indeed generated in the electrodes by reaction (vi). These gamma-rays are generated by the reaction (vii). "
I was attempting to describe what they initially claimed to observe. I now realize that the parenthetical statement after that is incorrect- it was foolish of me to expect they'd gotten that right. That was, however, the reason P&F included that bit of experimental 'evidence'.
They may well have changed their story in a later publication, but I was intending to describe the original report.- 130.20.71.114 19:00 Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
Aha, that explains it. Thanks for the citation. There's a comment in Close's book to the effect that the physicists had to explain to P & F that the energy of the neutrons was not relevant to the reaction that yields gammas or to the gamma energy; this seemed to me quite cryptic. The reference you provided makes it clear where they were assuming that it was related. And that's how they were inferring the 2.45 MeV energy without having any means for direct measurement of neutron energies. It follows that this report of neutrons with the proper energy was simply wrong (apart from their getting the gamma energy wrong), a non-sequitur. The easiest and most informative step from here is to note the error; so I've done it. Dandrake 04:31, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
Why is the bubbling of gas to stir the solution referred to as sparging? (In the experimental setup section) What's being done there has nothing to do with sparging as described in the Wikipedia entry. Plain "bubbling" would be both clearer and more accurate, if there's not some good reason for the other term. Dandrake 07:28, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that "What's being done there has nothing to do with sparging"?
- Easy there. No offence meant. My evidence is the Wikipedia article on sparging, which says nothing of using bubbles to achieve mixing. It seems to me that the removal of anything from the system (as implied by the sparging article) was the exact opposite of what they needed to do, given the danger of explosion if the liquid level got too low. Of course if F & P used the term, that settles it; I'm not teaching chemists their subject. But the two articles at the moment are confusingly inconsistent, as a non-chemist will find out if he conscientiously tries to find out what this "sparging" stuff is. As you say, the sparging article needs to be amended. (Unless someone who knows these things says that F & P's usage was non-standard, which would call for different changes.) BTW there surely can't be copyright issues with a link to the article? It would be a fine thing to have. Dandrake 18:44, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
Well, I'm a chemist but not an experimentalist, so I'm not exactly an expert, but my understanding and interpretation is that sparging in this context refers to the action of bubbling an inert gas through a liquid. I don't think it is specific to doing so for a particular purpose as was implied in the previous edit of the sparging page. In my very brief time doing experimental work we called it sparging when we bubbled nitrogen through refluxing solvents to remove dissolved oxygen gas. (This method isn't perfect, but removes very nearly all the oxygen over the course of a few days.) I do not believe that allowing the bubbles created at the cathode to leave the solution would be classified as sparging, however, and that interpretation doesn't match the context of P&F's claim that gas sparging was used "where necessary".
Except for this, I've never heard of using sparging as a stirring method, but I'm far from an expert so I can't state whether or how often it is used for that purpose. However, lack of adequate stirring was a major criticism leveled at P&F by a number of experimental electrochemists, including Nate Lewis. This was later considered by a majority of chemists to be a non-fusion explanation of the thermochemical data which purported to show excess heat- there was no excess heat, just an inadequately stirred cell which was hotter near the thermometer than elsewhere.
What I meant about copyright is that I'm suspicious that the person hosting the link I referred to above is doing so in violation of copyright, though I have no evidence either way. Perhaps putting the link on the main page is okay anyhow, I'm just not sure what the usual practice here is. Put it in if you like.
I also updated the sparging wiki page, I'm not entirely happy with it but it's what I know on the subject. 130.20.71.114 21:10, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
- Now I see the point. (I seem to be saying that a lot currently. That's science for you.) And F & P's application of the the term doesn't contradict the one-sentence definition that introduces sparging. I may want to stick a "(bubbling)" into the text, though, as the technical word is so unfamiliar and doesn't seem to convey a lot more. As to copyright, I agree that we con't want links to copyvio pages; it would have to be checked before it'sa allowed into the article. Dandrake 17:40, Aug 27, 2004 (UTC)
- I find that the site has a reasonable copyright policy; good enough, anyway, that linking to them should be acceptable. So I've added one, whcih should be zapped if anyone finds out the policy is misleading. Dandrake 01:01, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
There's an excellent reason to refer to it as sparging: that was the method P&F actually reported that they used to stir the cells. From the J Electroanal Chem article above, here's a quote which I originally put into the page in my 01:36, 25 Aug 2004 edit (but which was subsequently reverted):
"Stirring in these experiments (and in those listed under 1)) was achieved, where necessary, by gas sparging using electrolytically generated D2."
In my second attempt to get this information included on the page I avoided using quotations, as that seems not to be the style used here.
You are correct that the wiki definition of sparging doesn't match the pre-edit description of (lack of) stirring, but the edit to describe the process used as sparging was a correction rather than a clarification. The production of bubbles on the cathode is not sparging- the original version of the page was in error. Not even P&F made the incredible claim the older version of this page did, that "the bubbling action of the gas kept the electrolyte well mixed and of a uniform temperature". It may well be that P&F never actually sparged there cells at all ("where necessary" is quite ambiguous) but they did include that sentence, presumably to anticipate objections concerning inadequate stirring. The "where necessary" part of the article revision was taken explicitly from the P&F quote above. It would be nice to link the P&F article in the article rather than here in the discussion, but I'm concerned about copyright issues.
The wiki definition of sparging should probably be updated as well. 130.20.71.114 16:45, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)
The article has a presentation of reproducibility and other issues that's disjointed and confused; in effect, the article argues with itself, which is a too-common parody of NPOV. I'd have voted negative on WP:FAC if I hadn't been occupied elsewhere; but it has benefitted from all the attention, so who can figure?
I'm trying to work out a treatment of what reproducibility is about, briefer than the main article (or than it ought to be) and in context, for the reader who doesn't have much background. I find it easy to give examples of work that had no good theory behind it, was easily reproduced, and was accepted by the community; radioactivity will do, with its apparent violation of conservation of energy. From the same period there's a classic of work that had no theory, was not widely reproducible, was not generally accepted, and turned out to be spurious: N-rays. To show how the scientific process works, I'm looking for a good example of a contrasting situation: no theory, initially poor reproducibility, general non-acceptance, and eventual vindication and acceptance. Continental drift has some of that quality, but the problem wasn't reproducibility, really. Does anyone have a good example? I presume that the cold-fusion literature would provide something, but I haven't run into it. Dandrake 01:18, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
Removing the following paragraph:
This has no visible relevance to the section. If anyone finds a better place, in the context of some dispute to which it's material, please fix. Dandrake 22:54, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)
See:
Szpak, S., et al. Polarized D+/Pd-D2O System: Hot Spots and “Mini-Explosions”. in Tenth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 2003. Cambridge, MA: LENR-CANR.org. lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SzpakSpolarizedd.pdf
See also PowerPoint slides for same, and movie clip from IR camera, here: lenr-canr.org/Collections/USNavy.htm
to summarize the pro fusion argument: some experements show excess heat, but this has not been proven. However, current physics knowlege is that huge initialization energy is required (its also suspicious that the counterargument to this is that current understanding of fusion physics is wrong). Also, electrolysis of heavy water is just oxidation and reduction, a chemical reaction involving valance electrons, which has nothing to do with nuclear reaction and nuclear forces. Also, "generaly cold, localy hot", is misleading because its hot fussion on a microscopic scale, and the only example of generaly cold fussion has nothing to do with electrolytic fussion (so there is really only one established prcess by which this can occur). Has a person with a physics or chemistry degree looked at this and found the pro argument convincing? 209.197.155.118
The DOE report recently added can be used to improve the NPOV and factual correctness of this article. It asked for the best available data and evidence from the specified proponents of cold fusion and then peer reviewed it in a few ways. A 5 page summary pdf is available here. An important excerpt is the following:
I suppose it is interesting to note that at least one of the reviewers was swayed by the evidence and did accept that there was some effect beyond the "ordinary chemical or solid state sources". Overall, two thirds of the reviewers did not find the evidence compelling, one did, and the rest were somewhat convinced.
For the second review question, the standout quote is "The reviewers raised serious concerns regarding the assumptions postulated in the proposed theoretical model for the explanation for 4HE production"
Good stuff. - Taxman 03:23, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)
Note that the DoE did not publish the actual commments made by the review panel members, but the New Energy Times and LENR-CANR did. They are here:
2004 US Department of Energy Cold fusion Review Reviewer Comments.
lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DOEusdepartme.pdf
130 papers were submitted to the DoE by cold fusion researchers during the review. They are listed here:
lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Hagelsteinnewphysica.pdf
Full text versions of 41 of these papers are available here:
lenr-canr.org/Collections/DoeReview.htm
I have trimmed several external links to news articles about cold fusion developments. (We could probably trim more!) They were repetitive and superseded by events, and wikipedia isn't a link farm. In general, links should be limited to deep background or source information. - DavidWBrooks 18:18, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While it's true that the page is quite long, I must disagree with Susurrus' removal of the "Arguments in the controversy" section for a number of reasons (Indeed, I think such a dramatic change in a feature article probably should have been mentioned here first):
First, if sub-pages are decided to be appropriate, I believe that the section heading should remain and a summary paragraph should remain in the main body- A good example of this might be the
United States Constitution page has sub-pages for
Preamble to the United States Constitution and
United States Bill of Rights but retains a summary giving the gist of the material along with a link.
Secondly, the choice of which material should go onto a sub-page seems inappropriate to me- the arguments in the controversy section is the most important part of the article, and should remain on the main page. I would prefer to see almost any other section be summarized- perhaps the "Experimental Setup and Observations" which is rather technical and the "continuing Efforts" which is mostly a list of people rather than an explanation.
Finally, although I obviously don't know what Susurrus' motivations are, I believe there is an appearance of bias in this action of the removal of most of the skeptical material to a poorly labelled, easy to overlook link while keeping all of the nonskeptical material in the main body of the article. --
Noren 17:18, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Prior reference linked to an incomplete version of the document. See Pg9 (Errata) for explanation of "Hawkins." -sk