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BetacommandBot 13:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move them all. It is very difficult to use Google to indicate what the most common name in English is as it gets mixed up with the professional football club ( Associação Académica de Coimbra - O.A.F.). But the University is under the name University of Coimbra as is this is indicative that WP:NC#Use English words should apply. Also it will make the leads easier to write because they can take the form "English name (Portuguese: Associação Académica de Coimbra ...)" Also I have remove the word section as it is redundant and would not be used in English and I have added Coimbra University Stadium. I will make the moves but Sebisthlm you will have to alter the wording -- PBS ( talk) 11:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Associação Académica de Coimbra →
Coimbra Academic Association —
WP:name ("Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form"),
WP:Common name ("When choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the [English] Wikipedia put into the search engine?"). There is no reason why this article name is in portuguese (compare e.g.
National Alliance of Student Organizations in Romania and
Uppsala Student Union). I would argue that "Académica (de) Coimbra" in English text most oftenly refers to
the football club. —
Sebisthlm (
talk)
09:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.From my talk page:
Which policy or guideline did I break? -- PBS ( talk) 06:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The discussion was over 5 days old the usual time for a WP:RM. WP:RMs are not just about finding a consensus. I will not move a page to a name that clearly breaks Wikipedia policies and guidelines even if there is a consensus for the move, not would any other responsible admin. In this case I gave my reasons for the moves. Basically I agreed with you (Sebisthlm) that the names should be anglicized. If consensus is you only problem then consider I as my opinion was the same as yours that there was a consensus to move the pages. Please remember that anyone can move a page and if the others were being moved because they were being anglicized then it definitely made sense to move Estádio Universitário de Coimbra to Coimbra University Stadium along with the other pages. Do you think that Coimbra University Stadium should be at Estádio Universitário de Coimbra if so why? I just checked and pt:Estádio de Wembley is not called Wembley Stadium would you expect it to be under its English name on the Portuguese Wikipedia? -- PBS ( talk) 10:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Your not adressing my principle objection of how you managed the moves. Is it policy for admins to move pages against consensus at their own whim? Sebisthlm ( talk) 08:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I wasn't actually saying you acted on a whim and rhetorically asking the question seemed to just cloud the question, since you're still not answering my policy question. You have only provided your arguments in favour of a page move, arguments that had been much appreciated at the actual discussion. I agree with some of them but not all (certainly not translating the stadium name). The main question is still, how can you make a clearly controversial page move when there is no consensus? What policy support such an action? Sebisthlm ( talk) 12:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but the problem is that you weren't part of the discussion, so your arguments never got the chance to get tried, as mine or Yodaki's were. Your arguments were also different from mine, e.g. adding the Stadium (I was personally thinking of amending the RM after my discussion with Yodaki). Furthermore, you're saying that you didn't and don't consider an eventual consensus when closing RM's, which is my main concern. Sebisthlm ( talk) 14:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Now we're getting somewhere. As I've said all along I have two concerns with these closings: the principal concern of how these RM's were closed, and the smaller concern about the actual reasons for the moves. I raised the first question at WP:ANI in lack of a better place to turn (if there is a proper place to raise policy questions about how the move requests are closed at WP:RM, feel free to enlighten me). You have not until now addressed my principal questions, but rather defended your reasons for a page move. I understand that Wikipedia is run by amateurs, which is one of it's strengths, but one downside is that it's extremely difficult to get principal discussions on policies, routines and so forth going. Now you've finally addressed my concerns by saying that "over the last year and a half there has been a move away from just counting opinions to decide these issues to also looking at the Wikipedia policies and giving administrators more discretion". As a Swede I think that concepts like democracy, clarity and accountability are important, so I'm concerned by this development that shifts the "power" from the regular users to the hands of a few admins, who you yourself has said makes a lot of closings in short spaces of time. These are the questions that I think would be better off discussed at another place than in a review of a page move that no-one seemed to care about.
On the smaller issue of reviewing your page move, I have said that I think the move of the stadium was wrong since Stadiums aren't translated per WP:COMMON (again, see all the category:football venues above). Are you actually saying that all these hundreds of Stadiums should be translated and moved. I'm also leaning towards that moving the different sports branches of AAC was wrong if they are professional sports clubs playing in national domestic competitions; In that case they shouldn't be translated, but moved to their WP:COMMON name.
Sebisthlm ( talk) 15:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Why do you want to use a mix of Portuguese and English for an article name? -- PBS ( talk) 16:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
PBS man (or boy, I don't know), imagine this comparision/example: In Portuguese we never call Texas Longhorns by its real name in Portuguese language because it would be a very nasty designation. It would be Cornos Compridos do Texas and since Cornos Compridos is easily undestood (slang) as "the guy whose girlfriend is cheating him" this college/university sports team's name would be a total joke. I urge you to understand that sports teams are usually referred to by its real native designation or, at least, by a short form of its native designation. Thanks. Yodaki ( talk) 02:08, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:AAC.svg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 01:39, 15 December 2011 (UTC) |
See this edit (21 February 2011)
I see no point in this edit as any additional information cab be placed in this article unless the the information becomes so much that a separate article is desirable. -- PBS ( talk) 13:03, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Club | Points |
---|---|
Centro Desportivo Universitário de Lisboa (CDUL) | 58 |
Grupo Desportivo Direito (Direito) | 50 |
Centro Desportivo Universitário do Porto (CDUP) | 43 |
Clube de Futebol Os Belenenses (Belenenses) | 41 |
Associação de Estudantes do Instituto Superior de Agronomia (Agronomia) | 40 |
Associação Académica de Coimbra (Académica) | 33 |
Clube de Rugby do Instituto Superior Técnico (Técnico) | 31 |
Grupo Dramático e Sportivo Cascais (Cascais) | 18 |
Clube de Rugby de Arcos de Valdevez (CRAV) | 15 |
Râguebi do Sport Lisboa e Benfica (S.L. Benfica) | 0 |
The result of the move request was: no consensus. -- tariqabjotu 02:29, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Coimbra Academic Association → Associação Académica de Coimbra – references to the parent student association are massively overshadowed by the famous football club Associação Académica de Coimbra – O.A.F.. There are 2 English print sources giving "Academic Association" and 1 more "Academic Club" but these are (slightly) outnumbered by use of the same name as the football team, such as Lonely Planet Portugal 2009 Page 328 "In the Associação Acadêmica de Coimbra (AAC); head here for student cards and youth travel discounts." - however if articles mentioning both team and club are brought in then (1st rationale) the WP:COMMONNAME is the same as the football team. Also (2nd rationale) move per WP:AT Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. In ictu oculi ( talk) Relisted. BDD ( talk) 16:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC) relisted Hot Stop talk- contribs 07:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC) 02:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
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Image:Associação Académica de Coimbra flag.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 13:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The result of the debate was move them all. It is very difficult to use Google to indicate what the most common name in English is as it gets mixed up with the professional football club ( Associação Académica de Coimbra - O.A.F.). But the University is under the name University of Coimbra as is this is indicative that WP:NC#Use English words should apply. Also it will make the leads easier to write because they can take the form "English name (Portuguese: Associação Académica de Coimbra ...)" Also I have remove the word section as it is redundant and would not be used in English and I have added Coimbra University Stadium. I will make the moves but Sebisthlm you will have to alter the wording -- PBS ( talk) 11:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Associação Académica de Coimbra →
Coimbra Academic Association —
WP:name ("Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form"),
WP:Common name ("When choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the [English] Wikipedia put into the search engine?"). There is no reason why this article name is in portuguese (compare e.g.
National Alliance of Student Organizations in Romania and
Uppsala Student Union). I would argue that "Académica (de) Coimbra" in English text most oftenly refers to
the football club. —
Sebisthlm (
talk)
09:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.From my talk page:
Which policy or guideline did I break? -- PBS ( talk) 06:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The discussion was over 5 days old the usual time for a WP:RM. WP:RMs are not just about finding a consensus. I will not move a page to a name that clearly breaks Wikipedia policies and guidelines even if there is a consensus for the move, not would any other responsible admin. In this case I gave my reasons for the moves. Basically I agreed with you (Sebisthlm) that the names should be anglicized. If consensus is you only problem then consider I as my opinion was the same as yours that there was a consensus to move the pages. Please remember that anyone can move a page and if the others were being moved because they were being anglicized then it definitely made sense to move Estádio Universitário de Coimbra to Coimbra University Stadium along with the other pages. Do you think that Coimbra University Stadium should be at Estádio Universitário de Coimbra if so why? I just checked and pt:Estádio de Wembley is not called Wembley Stadium would you expect it to be under its English name on the Portuguese Wikipedia? -- PBS ( talk) 10:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Your not adressing my principle objection of how you managed the moves. Is it policy for admins to move pages against consensus at their own whim? Sebisthlm ( talk) 08:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I wasn't actually saying you acted on a whim and rhetorically asking the question seemed to just cloud the question, since you're still not answering my policy question. You have only provided your arguments in favour of a page move, arguments that had been much appreciated at the actual discussion. I agree with some of them but not all (certainly not translating the stadium name). The main question is still, how can you make a clearly controversial page move when there is no consensus? What policy support such an action? Sebisthlm ( talk) 12:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but the problem is that you weren't part of the discussion, so your arguments never got the chance to get tried, as mine or Yodaki's were. Your arguments were also different from mine, e.g. adding the Stadium (I was personally thinking of amending the RM after my discussion with Yodaki). Furthermore, you're saying that you didn't and don't consider an eventual consensus when closing RM's, which is my main concern. Sebisthlm ( talk) 14:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Now we're getting somewhere. As I've said all along I have two concerns with these closings: the principal concern of how these RM's were closed, and the smaller concern about the actual reasons for the moves. I raised the first question at WP:ANI in lack of a better place to turn (if there is a proper place to raise policy questions about how the move requests are closed at WP:RM, feel free to enlighten me). You have not until now addressed my principal questions, but rather defended your reasons for a page move. I understand that Wikipedia is run by amateurs, which is one of it's strengths, but one downside is that it's extremely difficult to get principal discussions on policies, routines and so forth going. Now you've finally addressed my concerns by saying that "over the last year and a half there has been a move away from just counting opinions to decide these issues to also looking at the Wikipedia policies and giving administrators more discretion". As a Swede I think that concepts like democracy, clarity and accountability are important, so I'm concerned by this development that shifts the "power" from the regular users to the hands of a few admins, who you yourself has said makes a lot of closings in short spaces of time. These are the questions that I think would be better off discussed at another place than in a review of a page move that no-one seemed to care about.
On the smaller issue of reviewing your page move, I have said that I think the move of the stadium was wrong since Stadiums aren't translated per WP:COMMON (again, see all the category:football venues above). Are you actually saying that all these hundreds of Stadiums should be translated and moved. I'm also leaning towards that moving the different sports branches of AAC was wrong if they are professional sports clubs playing in national domestic competitions; In that case they shouldn't be translated, but moved to their WP:COMMON name.
Sebisthlm ( talk) 15:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Why do you want to use a mix of Portuguese and English for an article name? -- PBS ( talk) 16:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
PBS man (or boy, I don't know), imagine this comparision/example: In Portuguese we never call Texas Longhorns by its real name in Portuguese language because it would be a very nasty designation. It would be Cornos Compridos do Texas and since Cornos Compridos is easily undestood (slang) as "the guy whose girlfriend is cheating him" this college/university sports team's name would be a total joke. I urge you to understand that sports teams are usually referred to by its real native designation or, at least, by a short form of its native designation. Thanks. Yodaki ( talk) 02:08, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:AAC.svg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 01:39, 15 December 2011 (UTC) |
See this edit (21 February 2011)
I see no point in this edit as any additional information cab be placed in this article unless the the information becomes so much that a separate article is desirable. -- PBS ( talk) 13:03, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
Club | Points |
---|---|
Centro Desportivo Universitário de Lisboa (CDUL) | 58 |
Grupo Desportivo Direito (Direito) | 50 |
Centro Desportivo Universitário do Porto (CDUP) | 43 |
Clube de Futebol Os Belenenses (Belenenses) | 41 |
Associação de Estudantes do Instituto Superior de Agronomia (Agronomia) | 40 |
Associação Académica de Coimbra (Académica) | 33 |
Clube de Rugby do Instituto Superior Técnico (Técnico) | 31 |
Grupo Dramático e Sportivo Cascais (Cascais) | 18 |
Clube de Rugby de Arcos de Valdevez (CRAV) | 15 |
Râguebi do Sport Lisboa e Benfica (S.L. Benfica) | 0 |
The result of the move request was: no consensus. -- tariqabjotu 02:29, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Coimbra Academic Association → Associação Académica de Coimbra – references to the parent student association are massively overshadowed by the famous football club Associação Académica de Coimbra – O.A.F.. There are 2 English print sources giving "Academic Association" and 1 more "Academic Club" but these are (slightly) outnumbered by use of the same name as the football team, such as Lonely Planet Portugal 2009 Page 328 "In the Associação Acadêmica de Coimbra (AAC); head here for student cards and youth travel discounts." - however if articles mentioning both team and club are brought in then (1st rationale) the WP:COMMONNAME is the same as the football team. Also (2nd rationale) move per WP:AT Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. In ictu oculi ( talk) Relisted. BDD ( talk) 16:04, 25 July 2013 (UTC) relisted Hot Stop talk- contribs 07:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC) 02:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
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