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Maybe we can start a dicussion also about the overall structure of this article?
Much regards, Rob van Doorn 20:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I edited the ontop KIA-list according to the informations provided in the articles below. I don=t take any responsibility for the numbers given there. -- 92.75.109.162 ( talk) 09:14, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Please list only Coalition casualties in Afghanistan. Recent edits have been including US soldiers killed elsewhere. While these deaths may be part of Op Enduring Freedom, they do not belong on this page. Motorfix 01:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I have added this page. If anyone wants to combine this into a Casualties in the 2001 Invasion of Afghanistan page like the Iraq one, or to put it on the main page, then go ahead. I just thought we should do a page on the coalition casualties as well. PBP, 4 November 2004
61 American soldiers have been removed from the count of 333 who have died in operation Enduring freedom puting the number 272. OK I will agree not including the 14 soldiers killed in operation OEF Horn of Africa,14 soldiers killed in operation OEF Philippines and 5 soldiers killed in operation OEF Guantanamo bay. But that leaves 28 more soldiers. I guess you removed the soldiers that were killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Bahrain, Jordan and in the Arabian sea. Well in that case we should remove also more than 50 soldiers that have been killed in the war in Iraq from that list because they were killed in these places too. C'mon man think. They were killed suporting the war in Afghanistan. OK I agree about the 33 in Africa, Cuba and the Pacific but these guys should be listed as killed in the war in Afghanistan. So let the number be 300 killed american soldiers OK? Also stop removing the South Korean soldier listed killed. If you want to confirm these than go to yahoo, search for afghanistan timeline january 2003 wikipedia then check the date january 28th, you will see a report about the accidental killing of a south korean soldier in Afghanistan, even his name and rank. If you don't belive me then here are the information: In the Bagram Air Base barracks north of Kabul, Afghanistan, South Korean army major Lee Kyu-sang shot and killed Captain Kim Hyo-sung. The captain had refused an order to speak quietly on the telephone. The call involved the leasing of construction equipment with some Afghans. Kyu-sang, who said he didn't know the gun was loaded, was arrested. That was january 28th 2003.The link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_timeline_January_2003#January_28.2C_2003
Motorfix 12:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
preceeding comment was made by User:89.216.229.112
At least more than 50 american soldiers have been listed as killed in the war in Iraq, but were killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc. If you don't want to list those 28 killed out of Afghanistan in the war in Afghanistan then don't list these in the war in Iraq. I mean c'mon guys. When the DoD identified them they specificly said if they were killed while supporting operation Enduring Freedom or Iraqi freedom. OK about those 33 killed in Cuba, Africa and the Philippines but these have to be included.
Maybe you guys should go to WP:ArbCom or ask for mediation to get this sorted out... on an aside, icasualties.org puts the number at 483 as of today... Mike McGregor (Can) 04:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
icasualties.org puts it at 483 because they include the 33 killed in Africa, Cuba and the Phillipines, I agree that they be counted as casualties in OEF Africa, OEF Phillipines and the 5 from Cuba don't be counted at all, but there is 28 killed in other arabic parts of Asia that should be counted as killed in the war in Afghanistan because they were supporting it in logistics and other things like 50 or so killed that are listed in the Iraq war but were not killed in Iraq.
Look...Read the title of the artical. It is not called casualties in Op enduring freedom, or Casualties In and around Afghanistan, or casualties in the Afghanistan war. It is coalition casualties in Afghanistan. Please read other conversations. We have already agreed on the source. Most of the coalition is only in Afghanistan! The source we are using as ref is http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf. Also, please cite a non wikipedia source for the South Korean...if you can. Motorfix 02:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I think you should write that the South Korean officer was arrested, it sounds like it's standard practice to kill people who don't obey orders in South Korea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.236.128.225 ( talk) 23:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Please check [1] before updating this page. Copperchair 28 June 2005 20:48 (UTC)
All right, I'll trust you on the WIA, but the DoD page does not specify the number of non-Americans killed, so there is no official number of those servicemen killed after June 22.
Copperchair 29 June 2005 05:05 (UTC)
The CNN page was updated today. You were right about German casualties. I have only edited the date now. I also updated (with the same figures) the Operation Enduring Freedom casualties section. Copperchair 30 June 2005 02:22 (UTC)
Today the CNN page counts 211 American soldiers dead (as of June 30, and the DoD page counts only 195 (as of July 1). I've updated it to the earlier, then. Copperchair 2 July 2005 04:47 (UTC)
Please people (particularly American people), if you're going to type out where an American casualty was from, don't use abbreviations for U.S states. Do North Carolina, not N.C, or Alabama, not Ala. Most people from outside of the US wouldn't know what 'N.C' or 'S.D' or whatever stood for. Ebglider91 ( talk) 03:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, I have put in for third party help on this: for about two months, there's been a constant edit war over these figures. Whenever a casualty is announced, I add it to the figures available. However, another editor only wants to put the figures up when they are listed on an external web page, such as the ones under "External Links". For instance, today, an American soldier was killed by a bomb in Afghanistan. I added it to the current figures. However, this other editor will likely revert the page and say we should only add the death once the DoD casualty page has updated. Those pages take days to update, and when they do, they end up validating my figures anyway. I have tried to explain this, but to no avail.
Also, he does not seem to believe there have been 17 German deaths in Afghanistan, though I have provided evidence that there, in fact, have been 17 deaths. Any outside opinions/help on these sticking points would be appreciated. PBP 13:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
It possibly has been resolved, as the editor in question has not updated this site for days. What I tried to do with this page was to create something not unlike the one at Icasualties.org [5], but focusing on Afghanistan. Since Icasualties does not list coalition deaths in Afghanistan, I researched the hostile/non-hostile deaths myself. There is no external source that breaks up the American/coalition deaths in hostile/non-hostile categories, other than this page, so it is impossible to update that part using another source. PBP 14:09, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
The April 22, 2006, incident included the names of just two of the four killed: (Bombardier Myles Mansell of the 5th British Columbia Field Regiment RCA, and Lt. William Turner of Land Force Western Area Headquarters). I removed this bit, as it didn't seem NPOV or fair to name only half of the men. I added an internal link -- [ | here ] -- that includes the other names. I personally have no big problem listing all four, but I think we should be consistent. PLEASE PLEASE note that Wikipedia includes individual entries on many of these folks, so if we include the names we ought to verify whether there are any internal entries.-- Thatnewguy 22:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Having the names, when available, allows to positively distinguish the incidents. Often the names are not available in the days following the incident but a week or two later. When the press reports a death on a certain date, and Governments report the same incident as occuring a day earlier, it can be thought to be 2 disctint incidents. Names help, and should be added as they become available. Hudicourt 17:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The May 5 Italian attack may have "only" killed two and wounded four. I can't find a reference that says it was three, though I'm certainly aware that one of the wounded could have died later, creating the stated three-three number. This needs a cite. -- Thatnewguy 23:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The Aug. 21 entry originally said fewer soldiers were wounded. I found a citation. Please let's cite our sources and keep this straight. -- Thatnewguy 23:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Ugh!! This artical leaves a bad taste...needs a rewrite. Motorfix 14:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Check out Canadian Forces casualties in Afghanistan. Would that format (ie the table) be viable here? perhaps broken down by nationality (at least for the countries with higher casualties)? I think the problem is the haphazard way that some incidents are selected to be outlined in the article while many more are not. should we develop some guidelines regarding which incidents to include in the article? Mike McGregor (Can) 12:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Steve Reich (Army) redirects here, but I see no reference to him in the article. What's up with that? Omphaloscope talk 16:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Surprised nobody's included him here. Will do later, if nobody else gets around to it. Soren.harward 22:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Please provide assiatance to resolve the currenty edit war. Motorfix 16:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Could you both (all?) explaine what your criteria is for inclusion on this page and also let us know what your using for refrences? Mike McGregor (Can) 17:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Lets put it this way: If we were counting soldiers killed in lets say France during World War 2, would you include soldiers killed over the English channel,in Holland, Belgium, and Italy? anyways, I think i'm okay as for as NPOV. cheers, Motorfix 18:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I came from the RFC. I agree that you should only state the deaths that happened in Afghanistan. After all, that is the title of the article. If the person who is editing in the other deaths is heart -set on including them (and I am assuming good faith), please mention the deaths in a separate statement, specifically declaring "x number of coalition casualties occurred in places other than Afghanistan including ____, ____, and ____.", or something to that effect. -- Connor K. 21:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
http://www.jihadunspun.com/newsarchive/
http://www.jihadunspun.com/articles/08212002-Casualty.Report/casualty02.html
From October 21, 2001, Jihad Unspun staff and researchers began tracking military casualties in the US war on “terrorism” campaign in Afghanistan from approximately 40 international news sources daily. Although limited information on the extent of casualties suffered in Afghanistan by US and Coalition troops has appeared in main stream North American press, this has not been the case in other parts of the globe. This report documents our research.
Source material has been gathered from mainstream and uncensored news sources. Only those reports that could be verified in more than one source are included here. When casualties or kills were listed as “several soldiers wounded” they were excluded. As the counts come only from those that actually found there way into the press, we expect the actually figures to be as much as three times higher that those listed here.
What this report clearly shows is the censorship of the American media and the reports issued by the Pentagon. Rena Golden, the executive vice-president and general manager of CNN International said at a Newsworld conference is Asia that US news organizations “censored” their coverage of the US campaign in Afghanistan in order to be in step with public opinion in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks was shaped by the level of public support that existed for US action.
This report is not to be misconstrued as an official casualty count as it shows only figures reported in the 40 daily news sources Jihad Unspun monitors however it should be noted that the totals concluded here are significantly higher than those presented by the media within North America. Although we can not conclude with 100% accuracy the validity of any news item, this report begins to show a broader picture of casualties as reported throughout the globe and helps us to put into perspective the human cost of this war.
The US & Coalition Casualties Report has been independently audited by TREK Technologies Inc., a third party market research firm, to add further validity to this work.
It should be noted that this research began after Operation Enduring Freedom in the mountains of Afghanistan and therefore is not a complete accounting from the beginning of the Afghan invasion.
In our first limited distribution of this report a few weeks ago, we received many inquiries from American citizens who questioned how these deaths could be hidden from the public. As one General said “the first casualty of war is the truth” and casualties have been kept from the public in every war since WW1. How? Missing In Action. By the end of the Vietnam war there where some 70,000 MIA’s, with only a small portion of those accounted for to this day. We owe our understanding of the human cost of Vietnam to the families of soldiers who pressed for the declassification of documents and finally, years later, at least a portion of the truth was exposed. This is standard war time procedure that lawmakers consider to be in the best interest of national security.
This conclusion that can be drawn from this report is that the deaths of both US and Coalition soldiers are significantly higher than the public is being made aware of and therefore the willingness to continue the America war effort to new theatres such as Iraq is being orchestrated under false pretenses.
For more information contact: report@jihadunspun.net
http://www.jihadunspun.com/articles/08212002-Casualty.Report/casualty02.html
This is also a good source: http://icasualties.org/oef/ Hudicourt 17:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I dont see the sense of redirecting to this page when the guy is not mentioned in the article. Panth 23:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I began working on a minor spelling mistake which led to the discovery that much of the material under "Specific Incidents" in 2008 has been directly cut-and-pasted from the US Military news releases. I don't believe this is appropriate or that it meets Wikipedia's standards. However, I a don't have hours to check the whole thing over right now. Perhaps the original contributor of these bits could correct this issue? -- CokeBear ( talk) 18:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
As Germany does not publish details about its casualties, foreign sources are even more unprecise than their domestic counterparts. That becomes obvious, too, when the death tolls of CNN and icasualties.org are compared to each other. However, the German MoD has recently confirmed in an interview (Source: See main article), that 29 Germans died in Afghanistan. Thus I'm going to reedit the entry concerning the Germans again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.95.195.157 ( talk) 19:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/div/KSK-Bundeswehr-Afghanistan;art771,2582857 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.95.214.32 ( talk) 14:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
There was no mention of Coalition casualties on the War in Afghanistan (2001–present) page, other than the info box, so a small section has been added halfway down. If anyone is updating numbers, could they update that page as well please? Thanks Chwyatt ( talk) 08:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
OK listen up the number given for the US military casualties here is not right. The figure doesn't include those killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar who were killed while supporting the mission in Afghanistan, before the Iraq invasion. So the number should be changed. icasualties.org states that 543 soldiers have been killed in Enduring Freedom up to date. The operation can be bropken down into four different operations. OEF - Afghanistan, OEF - Phillipines, OEF - Horn of Africa and OEF - Guantanamo bay. The Phillipines part of the operation has had 15 fatalities, the Africa part 17 and Guantanamo bay 5. So 543 - (15+17+5) = 516. Also the icasualties.org number doesn't include the civilian employee of the DoD that was killed by hostile fire. I have found out that the person in question was the contractor killed in Kuwait in January 2003. So the final number should be 517. Those that were killed before the Iraq invasion in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain were killed while supporting logistical operations in Afghanistan, just like they are now primaraly supporting operations in Iraq. So those deaths should be included! I will make the changes and please don't revert before giving a proper rational why does fatalities shouldn't be included. I have removed those killed in Africa, Cuba and the Far East because yest they don't belong on this list but those from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain do. If you want to stick to the DoD definition of "In and around Afghanistan" then it looks like that less have been killed during OEF in contrast to the actual number and this is missleading. Top Gun
Oh yes updating the number of US killed now from 517 to 518, another one died today, here is the reference http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2008/07/08/1_nato_soldier_killed_in_afghan_blast/. Top Gun
Someone has recently been editing down the Canadian casualty count by one. For instance, as of this note, DND, CBC, and iCasualties.org all agree that there have been 93 casualties, but once again someone has reduced it by one. Anyway, if someone can shed some light on this or if we can just agree to stick to the iCasualties.org number, that would be great. andrewpullin 02:27 22 August 2008 (UTC)
According to the article (as of my addition of two casualties on 4. December) 20 Danish casualties in Afghanistan since 2002 are listed, 17 of these with names. Of these 10 has been in 2008. But according to the Danish national broadcast service (DR) about the same casualties it only makes 18 casualtes and only nine in 2008 ( this article - sorry but it's only in Danish). So either the list here on Wikipedia is wrong (i hope we're not having some false entries) or DR is wrong. Does anybody have the possibility to review and confirm the list? -- Hebster ( talk) 20:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Warrant officer Jens Mathias Petersen - died on the 13th March, 2008 due to over-exertion during training.
The unnamed sergeant, whom died on the 3th December, 2004 committed suicide.
Both is not listed on the official fatality list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.143.196.89 ( talk) 01:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I have just read throught the comments.. The section Details, the British, Canadians and Germans all have there own seperate pages which highlights the individuals killed in Afghanistan. Should not the Americans also have there own page at US Forces casualties in Afghanistan since 2001 ?? This would reduce the length of this article. It would allow substantial references to be included. Currently, there are only 15 notes but 554 cites (not included in the notes) .. COMMENTS? Jez t e C 23:50, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I think in the list:
Coalition casualties · Afghan forces casualties · Civilian casualties · Aircraft losses
is certainly an entry missing for the number of deaths of the enemy. As far as I know NATO doesn't keep official records, but there are websites which try to estimate the number of terrorists killed based on news reports, like http://terroristdeathwatch.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.55.129.109 ( talk) 01:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
This is about Coalition deaths, that's why it's missing. (Also, they aren't terrorists just because they are the enemy) Psychokinetic ( talk) 06:36, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Will somebody tell that guy, who is constantly changing his IP so it would seem numerous editors are doing the reverting, to stop undoing my edit. I am constantly reintroducing the Canadian soldier who died at a logistics base in another country in the Persian gulf, but he is constantly removing him from the count. The death at the logistic base is associated with the war itself, while the rest of the US deaths outside Afghanistan are associated with other wars and operations not just Afghanistan, there is a big difference. We don't include those other US deaths because they are involved in other operations and wars that have nothing to do with Afghanistan, but this Canadian soldier was directly involved and supporting the war in Afghanistan, the same as those US soldiers killed in Pakistan and Uzbekistan. The Canadian news press even includes him in their Afghan war tally when they state the number of dead soldiers. What this anonymous editor is doing is missleading and he is pushing his own POW. He is trying to implement US military casualties policy on US casualties on to Canadian casualties in contradiction to Canadian military casualties policy. BobaFett85 ( talk) 15:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
How can I resolve the problem when you yourself are not inclined to resolve the problem through discussion. I have changed the article a bit and removed some links so for it not to be too much of a copy of this article but it will stick because there has to be an article that lists ALL of the casualties that have result directly from the war and not just those within the borders of that country. BobaFett85 ( talk) 18:13, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that any editor that didn't agree with this article, because it only lists soldiers killed within the borders of Afghanistan and not all soldiers who died as result of the war in other countries, can edit an article that lists all Coalition deaths that are the result of the war in Afghanistan right here. And I know that there are editors that don't agree with this article because there have been a number of discussions in the past where some editors tried to explain that this article is not listing properly all registered Coalition deaths that have been the result of the war. BobaFett85 ( talk) 06:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Listen, I'm going to say this now and for the last time and get it through that thick skull of yours. And stop being such an uncompromising person, also there is no need to be insulting towards me since I didn't attack you in any way. There is no magic involved but facts and sources! I didn't ignore your request for the link to the site with the filter, it's here, icasualties.org [23] and I listed it as one of my references on the page I am making. It's just that you ignored it and didn't read it. Also I told you before that I went through icasualties.org's list and found that more soldiers died than it is reported by the DoD. That's wrong information on their part.
Step 1: Icasualties.org states that 671 soldiers died supporting OEF (while DoD says 667, evidence one of wrong information by the DoD), if you use icasualties.org's filter on their list you will find that 41 died in Africa, Southeast Asia or Cuba, that leaves 630 who died in Afghanistan or other countries supporting operations in Afghanistan.
Step 2: Of the remaining 630 I found that 606 died in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan, while 24 died in Bahrain, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Persian Gulf, Arabian sea.
Step 3: I found that icasualties.org missed to put on their list four more servicemen that were CONFIRMED as OEF casualties. The female soldier on leave in Kansas (unit was in Kuwait at the time), a CIA operative killed in a vehicle accident in Khazakhstan, a sailor who was lost at sea in the Indian ocean in 2001 (his ship was supporting air operations against Afghanistan during the initial invasion at the time) and the civilian DoD employee who was killed by terrorist gunmen in Kuwait in January 2003. I put references for all of them in that paragraph of the article.
Step 4: My numbers are not based on DoD figures but on icasualties.org, which is more reliable. Thus, 606 killed (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan) + 24 killed (outside Afghanistan, while supporting operations there) + 4 additional deaths not listed on icasualties.org = 634 killed.
Step 5: I rest my case. No original research, everything verified with the list from icasualties.org and those additional references for the four servicemen that icasualties.org missed. Finall tally for OEF, including Africa, Southeast Asia and Cuba - 675, eight more than the DoD report's, but all confirmed by DoD to be OEF fatalities, I guess the Pentagon just forgot about those eight people. I guess the guy who maintains their site was not privy too all the information.
BobaFett85 (
talk)
06:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Step 1: The list with the filter is here
[25], It's not so hard to find it for anyone, well except for you of course.
Step 2: I revised the DoD number up by 2 because they were late by three days to add those last two Marines killed on their list, just wanted to be as precise as possible since my tally included those two guys.
Step 3: Again you are going on and on with the Original research accusation, it's not since it's all been referenced, so give it a rest with that will you?
Step 4: I said why it's 675 and not 671 like icasualties says, I said it I think two or three times, but you obviously cann't read. Icasualties.org missed to put on their list: the CIA operative killed in Khazakhstan, the woman serviceman from Kansas, the DoD employee, and the sailor who drowned in the Indian ocea.
Step 5: I made just one inacurace, I thought that icasualties.org included the DoD employee on their list, they didn't. He was killed by terrorists in Kuwait in January 2003. When I counted on icasualties the number of those killed in Kuwait I was looking at the country of death and not to which units they were assigned so I missed that he was not on the list. But I re-checked and found out the mistake and corrected it.
Step 6: There is nothing contradictory about the numbers it's simple. The DoD says 599 killed in and around Afghanistan and in military hospitals, while we have icasualties.org which has listed the names of 606 soldiers killed in and around Afghanistan and in military hospitals. All of those names were put on icasualties following DoD confirmation. So the reason is simple, whoever is updating the DoD's site is wrong by a factor of 7.
Step 7: Now listen to me realy carefull, I am almost finished with the list of all soldiers killed in the war in Afghanistan, it will take me just a couple of more days. When I am finished I will remove all reported incidents of US soldiers killed from this article, also I will remove the Danes, Poles and Australians as well since their names are already listed at the begining of the article. Then I will revise the number of US soldiers killed up by seven to 606 since it has been established that the DoD's number is unreliable. Again the names of 606 soldiers listed as killed of wounds received in or around Afghanistan on icasualties list were all put there following DoD confirmation. I will add a note that according to DoD numbers a smaller number of 599 were killed, like Publicus said, we cann't rule them out compleatly. But since we will have the Wikipedia article I am building as a basis we will use the bigger number from now on. In the end I will create a sub-section in the article that will deal with the out-of-country deaths that were the result of the war in Afghanistan but were not in Afghanistan, specificly the 28 US and one Canadian soldier. Cheers!
BobaFett85 (
talk)
07:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Listen, this will be the last time that I will talk to you like a friend, yes a friend, so listen. I will try to talk to you like we just met and like we are talking for the first time.
Listen buddy, I am realy tired fighting with you. Realy, realy tired, mentaly. Mike McGregor (Can) and Jezarnold were both aware of the edits, they didn't ignore it. They both knew about the new article American Forces casualties in the war in Afghanistan, I notified them. Mike McGregor (Can) even made a few edits to the article and gave me a few tips to edit the article. Thus he had no problem with the moving of the list from this article to that. As well as Jezarnold, he was the one who originaly proposed to me to do the article American Forces casualties in the war in Afghanistan, he actualy proposed this three months ago on this discussion page. He also got involved in the discussion over the new article and he backed me up and stated the article be kept. But I will warn you about something. A user called Perelada asked about the moving of the content to the new article and was angry the new article has been nominated for deletion. I told him if they delete it we will reinsert the old material back here. But user EyeSerene, who nominated the new article for deletion, has stated that we can not reinsert the old material back into this article since it itself is violation of the Wikipedia Memorial rule. So if you revert me again you will be in violation of that rule. He warned be that anyone who reinserts the old material can be easily blocked. This was a friendly warning to you. You realy like those wikipedia rules when they are usefull to you, so I will use one now. You can not reinsert that list of names of US soldiers in this article because it is in violation of the Wikipedia Memorial rule.
Listen, like I said I am very, very, very tired of fighting with you. You obviously, totaly, definetly got the wrong picture about me. Why didn't you want to be more constructive and compromising from the very start? We could have find a compromising solution. From the very start you were insulting towards me. The only real reason I created the article American Forces casualties in the war in Afghanistan was that this article here was getting toooooo long. And on Jezarnold's recomendation I created the new article. Listen pal, I realy have no ill will towards you, I realy have no problem with you. I don't know why you were always so hostile. Now because you were on some kind of stupid crusade against me, all of the material from this article on the names of the US soldiers will be deleted and it won't be allowed to be reinserted. They have also threatened to delete the German, Canadian and British lists as well. You were always accusing me of wrong information because of several of my bad edits with the numbers, those mistakes were because I was still calculating the number of soldiers killed based on the list by icasualties.org, but I was always changing the numbers because more soldiers were dying. Listen, can we talk this over calmly, realy calmly.
The OEF - Horn of Africa article was wrong, it said 21 but it was actualy 20. I corrected it. At this moment icasualties.org lists the names of 673 soldiers killed in OEF. 20 of those are listed as killed in African countries, 15 killed in Southeast Asia, 5 killed in Cuba and 1 killed in Mali (Trans-Sahara). That leaves 632 killed in the context of OEF - Afghanistan, among them 608 have been listed to have died in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan or military hospitals from wounds received in Afghanistan. The other 24 died in other Arabian countries. I also provided references for four more servicemen, who are not on icasuaties.org's lsit, but were confirmed by DoD to be fatalities of OEF. So that makes 28 to have died in other countries in support of operations in Afghanistan. A total of 636. I stated here in the article the 608 number of killed in or around Afghanistan, with an addition of 28 killed in other countries, just like that Canadian. I also, just like Publicus proposed, stated, noted that the 608 number given by icasualties.org is higher than the official DoD's tally, even if all of those 608 names were confirmed by DoD. If you would calm down and listen to this you would see that I am right.
BobaFett85 (
talk)
07:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Nevertheless Mike expressed a keep vote and I already discussed with him about the course on what we should to to expand the article, also what I ment by reinserting the deleted material was reinserting all of the things YOU are currently reinserting, the chronological list of soldiers killed. You yourself are reinserting it. And if that article is deleted I personaly will report you for reinserting material that is in violation of the Memorial rule, since you like to wave the Wikipedia rules so much so can I. And also this is no joke, the errors in numbers I made before were anticipated. Hell, the US government even initialy thought that 6,000 and not 3,000 people died on 9/11. But, now I have corrected all of the errors and have come to a definite number. Listen, for the last time. Icasualties.org lists 608, not 601, but 608 names of servicemen to have died in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan or in military hospitals from wounds received in Afghanistan. All of the names were confirmed by DoD. In any case the new article lists the names of soldiers killed almost just like this article here did it so there is no need for this article to contain the list since it is in the new article. I realy don't understand you, you yourself said a week ago you woulnd't have a problem with a subsection on out-of-country deaths and you yourself said you wouldn't have a problem to move the US deaths from the list in this article to a new article. BobaFett85 ( talk) 07:12, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello, the Afghan army is part of the coalition, they fight side by side with NATO troops against the Taliban. Are there no casualty figures for Afghans? 78.105.234.140 ( talk) 12:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed that the total for US casualties took a huge jump in this edit. can any one confirm or correct the number? Mike McGregor (Can) ( talk) 23:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't Pakistani casualties be included? Pakistan is part of the coalition, and can be considered 'international'?
VR talk 19:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
do we know how many civilians have died over there? thanks. n-dimensional §кakkl€ 05:10, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
1) THE TOTAL IS WRONG. 2) FRENCH CASUALTIES ARE NOW 39 (01/13/2010) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxloupio ( talk • contribs) 13:50, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes you are right.FRENCH CASUALTIES are 39.
http://www.icasualties.org/OEF/index.aspx —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
119.152.86.242 (
talk)
22:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Just saying, but Australian casualties now number 18, not 17. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.62.136 ( talk) 08:01, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
As my english is poor so please forgive me.I tell you in a huge puzzle language.
In the article, US caaualties, 5 CIA and 2 Blckwater agents killed in Camp Chapman incident.
As in the US caualty article.Casualties is according to icaualties.And icaualties doesnt add those 2 blackwater in US caualties data.Icaualties add 5 CIA agenst killed in that incident.
http://icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx
So as in the article "Of the American deaths, more than 700 have died in hostile action. Included in these numbers are 9 CIA operatives that were killed in Afghanistan.According to icasualties.org, 898 US soldiers killed in Afghanistan."
If we write that 11 CIA agenst killed in Afghanistan and 7 killed in that incident.Then US caualties become 702 and the refrence of icaualty is wrong because according to icasualty 700 US soldiers killed as hostile fire.
Maybe you understand what i want to say.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mujahid1947 ( talk • contribs)
Obviously this page is changing all the time so i dont expect it to be spot on, but the number of British deaths is now 263 not 256. Here is the BBC source, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8260060.stm
Keep up the good work. I was impressed by the depth of info! Willski72 ( talk) 15:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
My thanks for the update. I will try and remember to keep an eye-out for any updates and let you know!-- Willski72 ( talk) 16:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Its 266 now im afraid, here's the source from the BBC again, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8538423.stm -- Willski72 ( talk) 13:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
"List of deaths of European soldiers" is partially wrong.
"October 24, 2005 - An Italian soldier, Captain Jesús de la Pascua Belaustegui, died from an illness in Herat."
Captain Jesús de la Pascua Belaustegui wasn't an italian soldier, but a spanish one.
SOURCE : http://afghanistan.pigstye.net/article.php?story=JesusDeLaPascuaBelaustegui
In regards to Wikipedia not being a WP:Memorial to list all the names and details of the dead. There is also the external link that goes into the requisite details, a simple external link would do here. the encyclopaedic content is the info on the losses and the effects, not the memorializing of rank, age, name, etc. Lihaas ( talk) 14:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I would like to argue that this article is not of encyclopedic quality because it provides raw and emotional numbers without giving context. My thesis is that the number of death strictly due to war is in fact lower than one can infer from a quick reading of the article. Note that I don't dispute at all the numbers, only their possible interpretation by un-seasoned Wikipedia readers. Please also note that I deeply respect all the people who made the sacrifice of their life.
There are nearly 200,000,000 adults in USA, and there are nearly 30,000 deaths by car accident every year. Three deaths for 20,000 adults. There are nearly 200 Coalition deaths in Afghanistan per year. There was approximatively 60,000 troops for the whole Coalition during each of the nine years. It means that at least 9 deaths are not directly related to war but to something akin to a car accident. Moreover we can suppose that given the bad road infrastructure, road signs in foreign language if there are any and extreme geographical features of Afghanistan (some areas at more than 20,000 ft above sea level), wide range of temperature and inadequate vehicles for mountain roads: The rate of accidents is certainly much more higher. Let say ten times higher than in USA. It gives 90 deaths per year. Nearly half of the number which could be understood as war deaths. And this is only for car accidents, what about other kind of accident?
{{editsemiprotected}}
Please update link for Casualty Monitor to: http://www.casualty-monitor.org/p/british-casualties-in-afghanistan.html
Thanks!
Readknowwrite ( talk) 20:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
"Of the 512 foreign soldiers killed in 2009, 448 were killed in action. 280 of those were killed by IEDs."
We're all foreign to people outside our country. I assume this means non-US troops. If so, then I shall change it (unless someone gets there first). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psychokinetic ( talk • contribs) 06:33, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
As you can see I have edited it to the correct number of Australian Deaths and have corrected the total deaths in the box and the total deaths in the first section of the article. I think someone already added sources for me because I was not able to do so when I was on my iPad and forgot to do it later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.225.125 ( talk) 06:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
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Maybe we can start a dicussion also about the overall structure of this article?
Much regards, Rob van Doorn 20:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I edited the ontop KIA-list according to the informations provided in the articles below. I don=t take any responsibility for the numbers given there. -- 92.75.109.162 ( talk) 09:14, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Please list only Coalition casualties in Afghanistan. Recent edits have been including US soldiers killed elsewhere. While these deaths may be part of Op Enduring Freedom, they do not belong on this page. Motorfix 01:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
I have added this page. If anyone wants to combine this into a Casualties in the 2001 Invasion of Afghanistan page like the Iraq one, or to put it on the main page, then go ahead. I just thought we should do a page on the coalition casualties as well. PBP, 4 November 2004
61 American soldiers have been removed from the count of 333 who have died in operation Enduring freedom puting the number 272. OK I will agree not including the 14 soldiers killed in operation OEF Horn of Africa,14 soldiers killed in operation OEF Philippines and 5 soldiers killed in operation OEF Guantanamo bay. But that leaves 28 more soldiers. I guess you removed the soldiers that were killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Uzbekistan, Pakistan, Bahrain, Jordan and in the Arabian sea. Well in that case we should remove also more than 50 soldiers that have been killed in the war in Iraq from that list because they were killed in these places too. C'mon man think. They were killed suporting the war in Afghanistan. OK I agree about the 33 in Africa, Cuba and the Pacific but these guys should be listed as killed in the war in Afghanistan. So let the number be 300 killed american soldiers OK? Also stop removing the South Korean soldier listed killed. If you want to confirm these than go to yahoo, search for afghanistan timeline january 2003 wikipedia then check the date january 28th, you will see a report about the accidental killing of a south korean soldier in Afghanistan, even his name and rank. If you don't belive me then here are the information: In the Bagram Air Base barracks north of Kabul, Afghanistan, South Korean army major Lee Kyu-sang shot and killed Captain Kim Hyo-sung. The captain had refused an order to speak quietly on the telephone. The call involved the leasing of construction equipment with some Afghans. Kyu-sang, who said he didn't know the gun was loaded, was arrested. That was january 28th 2003.The link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_timeline_January_2003#January_28.2C_2003
Motorfix 12:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
preceeding comment was made by User:89.216.229.112
At least more than 50 american soldiers have been listed as killed in the war in Iraq, but were killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc. If you don't want to list those 28 killed out of Afghanistan in the war in Afghanistan then don't list these in the war in Iraq. I mean c'mon guys. When the DoD identified them they specificly said if they were killed while supporting operation Enduring Freedom or Iraqi freedom. OK about those 33 killed in Cuba, Africa and the Philippines but these have to be included.
Maybe you guys should go to WP:ArbCom or ask for mediation to get this sorted out... on an aside, icasualties.org puts the number at 483 as of today... Mike McGregor (Can) 04:22, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
icasualties.org puts it at 483 because they include the 33 killed in Africa, Cuba and the Phillipines, I agree that they be counted as casualties in OEF Africa, OEF Phillipines and the 5 from Cuba don't be counted at all, but there is 28 killed in other arabic parts of Asia that should be counted as killed in the war in Afghanistan because they were supporting it in logistics and other things like 50 or so killed that are listed in the Iraq war but were not killed in Iraq.
Look...Read the title of the artical. It is not called casualties in Op enduring freedom, or Casualties In and around Afghanistan, or casualties in the Afghanistan war. It is coalition casualties in Afghanistan. Please read other conversations. We have already agreed on the source. Most of the coalition is only in Afghanistan! The source we are using as ref is http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf. Also, please cite a non wikipedia source for the South Korean...if you can. Motorfix 02:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I think you should write that the South Korean officer was arrested, it sounds like it's standard practice to kill people who don't obey orders in South Korea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.236.128.225 ( talk) 23:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Please check [1] before updating this page. Copperchair 28 June 2005 20:48 (UTC)
All right, I'll trust you on the WIA, but the DoD page does not specify the number of non-Americans killed, so there is no official number of those servicemen killed after June 22.
Copperchair 29 June 2005 05:05 (UTC)
The CNN page was updated today. You were right about German casualties. I have only edited the date now. I also updated (with the same figures) the Operation Enduring Freedom casualties section. Copperchair 30 June 2005 02:22 (UTC)
Today the CNN page counts 211 American soldiers dead (as of June 30, and the DoD page counts only 195 (as of July 1). I've updated it to the earlier, then. Copperchair 2 July 2005 04:47 (UTC)
Please people (particularly American people), if you're going to type out where an American casualty was from, don't use abbreviations for U.S states. Do North Carolina, not N.C, or Alabama, not Ala. Most people from outside of the US wouldn't know what 'N.C' or 'S.D' or whatever stood for. Ebglider91 ( talk) 03:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, I have put in for third party help on this: for about two months, there's been a constant edit war over these figures. Whenever a casualty is announced, I add it to the figures available. However, another editor only wants to put the figures up when they are listed on an external web page, such as the ones under "External Links". For instance, today, an American soldier was killed by a bomb in Afghanistan. I added it to the current figures. However, this other editor will likely revert the page and say we should only add the death once the DoD casualty page has updated. Those pages take days to update, and when they do, they end up validating my figures anyway. I have tried to explain this, but to no avail.
Also, he does not seem to believe there have been 17 German deaths in Afghanistan, though I have provided evidence that there, in fact, have been 17 deaths. Any outside opinions/help on these sticking points would be appreciated. PBP 13:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
It possibly has been resolved, as the editor in question has not updated this site for days. What I tried to do with this page was to create something not unlike the one at Icasualties.org [5], but focusing on Afghanistan. Since Icasualties does not list coalition deaths in Afghanistan, I researched the hostile/non-hostile deaths myself. There is no external source that breaks up the American/coalition deaths in hostile/non-hostile categories, other than this page, so it is impossible to update that part using another source. PBP 14:09, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
The April 22, 2006, incident included the names of just two of the four killed: (Bombardier Myles Mansell of the 5th British Columbia Field Regiment RCA, and Lt. William Turner of Land Force Western Area Headquarters). I removed this bit, as it didn't seem NPOV or fair to name only half of the men. I added an internal link -- [ | here ] -- that includes the other names. I personally have no big problem listing all four, but I think we should be consistent. PLEASE PLEASE note that Wikipedia includes individual entries on many of these folks, so if we include the names we ought to verify whether there are any internal entries.-- Thatnewguy 22:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Having the names, when available, allows to positively distinguish the incidents. Often the names are not available in the days following the incident but a week or two later. When the press reports a death on a certain date, and Governments report the same incident as occuring a day earlier, it can be thought to be 2 disctint incidents. Names help, and should be added as they become available. Hudicourt 17:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The May 5 Italian attack may have "only" killed two and wounded four. I can't find a reference that says it was three, though I'm certainly aware that one of the wounded could have died later, creating the stated three-three number. This needs a cite. -- Thatnewguy 23:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
The Aug. 21 entry originally said fewer soldiers were wounded. I found a citation. Please let's cite our sources and keep this straight. -- Thatnewguy 23:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Ugh!! This artical leaves a bad taste...needs a rewrite. Motorfix 14:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Check out Canadian Forces casualties in Afghanistan. Would that format (ie the table) be viable here? perhaps broken down by nationality (at least for the countries with higher casualties)? I think the problem is the haphazard way that some incidents are selected to be outlined in the article while many more are not. should we develop some guidelines regarding which incidents to include in the article? Mike McGregor (Can) 12:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Steve Reich (Army) redirects here, but I see no reference to him in the article. What's up with that? Omphaloscope talk 16:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Surprised nobody's included him here. Will do later, if nobody else gets around to it. Soren.harward 22:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Please provide assiatance to resolve the currenty edit war. Motorfix 16:26, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Could you both (all?) explaine what your criteria is for inclusion on this page and also let us know what your using for refrences? Mike McGregor (Can) 17:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Lets put it this way: If we were counting soldiers killed in lets say France during World War 2, would you include soldiers killed over the English channel,in Holland, Belgium, and Italy? anyways, I think i'm okay as for as NPOV. cheers, Motorfix 18:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I came from the RFC. I agree that you should only state the deaths that happened in Afghanistan. After all, that is the title of the article. If the person who is editing in the other deaths is heart -set on including them (and I am assuming good faith), please mention the deaths in a separate statement, specifically declaring "x number of coalition casualties occurred in places other than Afghanistan including ____, ____, and ____.", or something to that effect. -- Connor K. 21:20, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
http://www.jihadunspun.com/newsarchive/
http://www.jihadunspun.com/articles/08212002-Casualty.Report/casualty02.html
From October 21, 2001, Jihad Unspun staff and researchers began tracking military casualties in the US war on “terrorism” campaign in Afghanistan from approximately 40 international news sources daily. Although limited information on the extent of casualties suffered in Afghanistan by US and Coalition troops has appeared in main stream North American press, this has not been the case in other parts of the globe. This report documents our research.
Source material has been gathered from mainstream and uncensored news sources. Only those reports that could be verified in more than one source are included here. When casualties or kills were listed as “several soldiers wounded” they were excluded. As the counts come only from those that actually found there way into the press, we expect the actually figures to be as much as three times higher that those listed here.
What this report clearly shows is the censorship of the American media and the reports issued by the Pentagon. Rena Golden, the executive vice-president and general manager of CNN International said at a Newsworld conference is Asia that US news organizations “censored” their coverage of the US campaign in Afghanistan in order to be in step with public opinion in the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks was shaped by the level of public support that existed for US action.
This report is not to be misconstrued as an official casualty count as it shows only figures reported in the 40 daily news sources Jihad Unspun monitors however it should be noted that the totals concluded here are significantly higher than those presented by the media within North America. Although we can not conclude with 100% accuracy the validity of any news item, this report begins to show a broader picture of casualties as reported throughout the globe and helps us to put into perspective the human cost of this war.
The US & Coalition Casualties Report has been independently audited by TREK Technologies Inc., a third party market research firm, to add further validity to this work.
It should be noted that this research began after Operation Enduring Freedom in the mountains of Afghanistan and therefore is not a complete accounting from the beginning of the Afghan invasion.
In our first limited distribution of this report a few weeks ago, we received many inquiries from American citizens who questioned how these deaths could be hidden from the public. As one General said “the first casualty of war is the truth” and casualties have been kept from the public in every war since WW1. How? Missing In Action. By the end of the Vietnam war there where some 70,000 MIA’s, with only a small portion of those accounted for to this day. We owe our understanding of the human cost of Vietnam to the families of soldiers who pressed for the declassification of documents and finally, years later, at least a portion of the truth was exposed. This is standard war time procedure that lawmakers consider to be in the best interest of national security.
This conclusion that can be drawn from this report is that the deaths of both US and Coalition soldiers are significantly higher than the public is being made aware of and therefore the willingness to continue the America war effort to new theatres such as Iraq is being orchestrated under false pretenses.
For more information contact: report@jihadunspun.net
http://www.jihadunspun.com/articles/08212002-Casualty.Report/casualty02.html
This is also a good source: http://icasualties.org/oef/ Hudicourt 17:33, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
I dont see the sense of redirecting to this page when the guy is not mentioned in the article. Panth 23:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I began working on a minor spelling mistake which led to the discovery that much of the material under "Specific Incidents" in 2008 has been directly cut-and-pasted from the US Military news releases. I don't believe this is appropriate or that it meets Wikipedia's standards. However, I a don't have hours to check the whole thing over right now. Perhaps the original contributor of these bits could correct this issue? -- CokeBear ( talk) 18:22, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
As Germany does not publish details about its casualties, foreign sources are even more unprecise than their domestic counterparts. That becomes obvious, too, when the death tolls of CNN and icasualties.org are compared to each other. However, the German MoD has recently confirmed in an interview (Source: See main article), that 29 Germans died in Afghanistan. Thus I'm going to reedit the entry concerning the Germans again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.95.195.157 ( talk) 19:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/div/KSK-Bundeswehr-Afghanistan;art771,2582857 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.95.214.32 ( talk) 14:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
There was no mention of Coalition casualties on the War in Afghanistan (2001–present) page, other than the info box, so a small section has been added halfway down. If anyone is updating numbers, could they update that page as well please? Thanks Chwyatt ( talk) 08:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
OK listen up the number given for the US military casualties here is not right. The figure doesn't include those killed in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Qatar who were killed while supporting the mission in Afghanistan, before the Iraq invasion. So the number should be changed. icasualties.org states that 543 soldiers have been killed in Enduring Freedom up to date. The operation can be bropken down into four different operations. OEF - Afghanistan, OEF - Phillipines, OEF - Horn of Africa and OEF - Guantanamo bay. The Phillipines part of the operation has had 15 fatalities, the Africa part 17 and Guantanamo bay 5. So 543 - (15+17+5) = 516. Also the icasualties.org number doesn't include the civilian employee of the DoD that was killed by hostile fire. I have found out that the person in question was the contractor killed in Kuwait in January 2003. So the final number should be 517. Those that were killed before the Iraq invasion in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain were killed while supporting logistical operations in Afghanistan, just like they are now primaraly supporting operations in Iraq. So those deaths should be included! I will make the changes and please don't revert before giving a proper rational why does fatalities shouldn't be included. I have removed those killed in Africa, Cuba and the Far East because yest they don't belong on this list but those from Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Bahrain do. If you want to stick to the DoD definition of "In and around Afghanistan" then it looks like that less have been killed during OEF in contrast to the actual number and this is missleading. Top Gun
Oh yes updating the number of US killed now from 517 to 518, another one died today, here is the reference http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2008/07/08/1_nato_soldier_killed_in_afghan_blast/. Top Gun
Someone has recently been editing down the Canadian casualty count by one. For instance, as of this note, DND, CBC, and iCasualties.org all agree that there have been 93 casualties, but once again someone has reduced it by one. Anyway, if someone can shed some light on this or if we can just agree to stick to the iCasualties.org number, that would be great. andrewpullin 02:27 22 August 2008 (UTC)
According to the article (as of my addition of two casualties on 4. December) 20 Danish casualties in Afghanistan since 2002 are listed, 17 of these with names. Of these 10 has been in 2008. But according to the Danish national broadcast service (DR) about the same casualties it only makes 18 casualtes and only nine in 2008 ( this article - sorry but it's only in Danish). So either the list here on Wikipedia is wrong (i hope we're not having some false entries) or DR is wrong. Does anybody have the possibility to review and confirm the list? -- Hebster ( talk) 20:19, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
Warrant officer Jens Mathias Petersen - died on the 13th March, 2008 due to over-exertion during training.
The unnamed sergeant, whom died on the 3th December, 2004 committed suicide.
Both is not listed on the official fatality list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.143.196.89 ( talk) 01:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
I have just read throught the comments.. The section Details, the British, Canadians and Germans all have there own seperate pages which highlights the individuals killed in Afghanistan. Should not the Americans also have there own page at US Forces casualties in Afghanistan since 2001 ?? This would reduce the length of this article. It would allow substantial references to be included. Currently, there are only 15 notes but 554 cites (not included in the notes) .. COMMENTS? Jez t e C 23:50, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I think in the list:
Coalition casualties · Afghan forces casualties · Civilian casualties · Aircraft losses
is certainly an entry missing for the number of deaths of the enemy. As far as I know NATO doesn't keep official records, but there are websites which try to estimate the number of terrorists killed based on news reports, like http://terroristdeathwatch.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.55.129.109 ( talk) 01:36, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
This is about Coalition deaths, that's why it's missing. (Also, they aren't terrorists just because they are the enemy) Psychokinetic ( talk) 06:36, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Will somebody tell that guy, who is constantly changing his IP so it would seem numerous editors are doing the reverting, to stop undoing my edit. I am constantly reintroducing the Canadian soldier who died at a logistics base in another country in the Persian gulf, but he is constantly removing him from the count. The death at the logistic base is associated with the war itself, while the rest of the US deaths outside Afghanistan are associated with other wars and operations not just Afghanistan, there is a big difference. We don't include those other US deaths because they are involved in other operations and wars that have nothing to do with Afghanistan, but this Canadian soldier was directly involved and supporting the war in Afghanistan, the same as those US soldiers killed in Pakistan and Uzbekistan. The Canadian news press even includes him in their Afghan war tally when they state the number of dead soldiers. What this anonymous editor is doing is missleading and he is pushing his own POW. He is trying to implement US military casualties policy on US casualties on to Canadian casualties in contradiction to Canadian military casualties policy. BobaFett85 ( talk) 15:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
How can I resolve the problem when you yourself are not inclined to resolve the problem through discussion. I have changed the article a bit and removed some links so for it not to be too much of a copy of this article but it will stick because there has to be an article that lists ALL of the casualties that have result directly from the war and not just those within the borders of that country. BobaFett85 ( talk) 18:13, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I just wanted to say that any editor that didn't agree with this article, because it only lists soldiers killed within the borders of Afghanistan and not all soldiers who died as result of the war in other countries, can edit an article that lists all Coalition deaths that are the result of the war in Afghanistan right here. And I know that there are editors that don't agree with this article because there have been a number of discussions in the past where some editors tried to explain that this article is not listing properly all registered Coalition deaths that have been the result of the war. BobaFett85 ( talk) 06:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Listen, I'm going to say this now and for the last time and get it through that thick skull of yours. And stop being such an uncompromising person, also there is no need to be insulting towards me since I didn't attack you in any way. There is no magic involved but facts and sources! I didn't ignore your request for the link to the site with the filter, it's here, icasualties.org [23] and I listed it as one of my references on the page I am making. It's just that you ignored it and didn't read it. Also I told you before that I went through icasualties.org's list and found that more soldiers died than it is reported by the DoD. That's wrong information on their part.
Step 1: Icasualties.org states that 671 soldiers died supporting OEF (while DoD says 667, evidence one of wrong information by the DoD), if you use icasualties.org's filter on their list you will find that 41 died in Africa, Southeast Asia or Cuba, that leaves 630 who died in Afghanistan or other countries supporting operations in Afghanistan.
Step 2: Of the remaining 630 I found that 606 died in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan, while 24 died in Bahrain, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Persian Gulf, Arabian sea.
Step 3: I found that icasualties.org missed to put on their list four more servicemen that were CONFIRMED as OEF casualties. The female soldier on leave in Kansas (unit was in Kuwait at the time), a CIA operative killed in a vehicle accident in Khazakhstan, a sailor who was lost at sea in the Indian ocean in 2001 (his ship was supporting air operations against Afghanistan during the initial invasion at the time) and the civilian DoD employee who was killed by terrorist gunmen in Kuwait in January 2003. I put references for all of them in that paragraph of the article.
Step 4: My numbers are not based on DoD figures but on icasualties.org, which is more reliable. Thus, 606 killed (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan) + 24 killed (outside Afghanistan, while supporting operations there) + 4 additional deaths not listed on icasualties.org = 634 killed.
Step 5: I rest my case. No original research, everything verified with the list from icasualties.org and those additional references for the four servicemen that icasualties.org missed. Finall tally for OEF, including Africa, Southeast Asia and Cuba - 675, eight more than the DoD report's, but all confirmed by DoD to be OEF fatalities, I guess the Pentagon just forgot about those eight people. I guess the guy who maintains their site was not privy too all the information.
BobaFett85 (
talk)
06:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Step 1: The list with the filter is here
[25], It's not so hard to find it for anyone, well except for you of course.
Step 2: I revised the DoD number up by 2 because they were late by three days to add those last two Marines killed on their list, just wanted to be as precise as possible since my tally included those two guys.
Step 3: Again you are going on and on with the Original research accusation, it's not since it's all been referenced, so give it a rest with that will you?
Step 4: I said why it's 675 and not 671 like icasualties says, I said it I think two or three times, but you obviously cann't read. Icasualties.org missed to put on their list: the CIA operative killed in Khazakhstan, the woman serviceman from Kansas, the DoD employee, and the sailor who drowned in the Indian ocea.
Step 5: I made just one inacurace, I thought that icasualties.org included the DoD employee on their list, they didn't. He was killed by terrorists in Kuwait in January 2003. When I counted on icasualties the number of those killed in Kuwait I was looking at the country of death and not to which units they were assigned so I missed that he was not on the list. But I re-checked and found out the mistake and corrected it.
Step 6: There is nothing contradictory about the numbers it's simple. The DoD says 599 killed in and around Afghanistan and in military hospitals, while we have icasualties.org which has listed the names of 606 soldiers killed in and around Afghanistan and in military hospitals. All of those names were put on icasualties following DoD confirmation. So the reason is simple, whoever is updating the DoD's site is wrong by a factor of 7.
Step 7: Now listen to me realy carefull, I am almost finished with the list of all soldiers killed in the war in Afghanistan, it will take me just a couple of more days. When I am finished I will remove all reported incidents of US soldiers killed from this article, also I will remove the Danes, Poles and Australians as well since their names are already listed at the begining of the article. Then I will revise the number of US soldiers killed up by seven to 606 since it has been established that the DoD's number is unreliable. Again the names of 606 soldiers listed as killed of wounds received in or around Afghanistan on icasualties list were all put there following DoD confirmation. I will add a note that according to DoD numbers a smaller number of 599 were killed, like Publicus said, we cann't rule them out compleatly. But since we will have the Wikipedia article I am building as a basis we will use the bigger number from now on. In the end I will create a sub-section in the article that will deal with the out-of-country deaths that were the result of the war in Afghanistan but were not in Afghanistan, specificly the 28 US and one Canadian soldier. Cheers!
BobaFett85 (
talk)
07:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Listen, this will be the last time that I will talk to you like a friend, yes a friend, so listen. I will try to talk to you like we just met and like we are talking for the first time.
Listen buddy, I am realy tired fighting with you. Realy, realy tired, mentaly. Mike McGregor (Can) and Jezarnold were both aware of the edits, they didn't ignore it. They both knew about the new article American Forces casualties in the war in Afghanistan, I notified them. Mike McGregor (Can) even made a few edits to the article and gave me a few tips to edit the article. Thus he had no problem with the moving of the list from this article to that. As well as Jezarnold, he was the one who originaly proposed to me to do the article American Forces casualties in the war in Afghanistan, he actualy proposed this three months ago on this discussion page. He also got involved in the discussion over the new article and he backed me up and stated the article be kept. But I will warn you about something. A user called Perelada asked about the moving of the content to the new article and was angry the new article has been nominated for deletion. I told him if they delete it we will reinsert the old material back here. But user EyeSerene, who nominated the new article for deletion, has stated that we can not reinsert the old material back into this article since it itself is violation of the Wikipedia Memorial rule. So if you revert me again you will be in violation of that rule. He warned be that anyone who reinserts the old material can be easily blocked. This was a friendly warning to you. You realy like those wikipedia rules when they are usefull to you, so I will use one now. You can not reinsert that list of names of US soldiers in this article because it is in violation of the Wikipedia Memorial rule.
Listen, like I said I am very, very, very tired of fighting with you. You obviously, totaly, definetly got the wrong picture about me. Why didn't you want to be more constructive and compromising from the very start? We could have find a compromising solution. From the very start you were insulting towards me. The only real reason I created the article American Forces casualties in the war in Afghanistan was that this article here was getting toooooo long. And on Jezarnold's recomendation I created the new article. Listen pal, I realy have no ill will towards you, I realy have no problem with you. I don't know why you were always so hostile. Now because you were on some kind of stupid crusade against me, all of the material from this article on the names of the US soldiers will be deleted and it won't be allowed to be reinserted. They have also threatened to delete the German, Canadian and British lists as well. You were always accusing me of wrong information because of several of my bad edits with the numbers, those mistakes were because I was still calculating the number of soldiers killed based on the list by icasualties.org, but I was always changing the numbers because more soldiers were dying. Listen, can we talk this over calmly, realy calmly.
The OEF - Horn of Africa article was wrong, it said 21 but it was actualy 20. I corrected it. At this moment icasualties.org lists the names of 673 soldiers killed in OEF. 20 of those are listed as killed in African countries, 15 killed in Southeast Asia, 5 killed in Cuba and 1 killed in Mali (Trans-Sahara). That leaves 632 killed in the context of OEF - Afghanistan, among them 608 have been listed to have died in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan or military hospitals from wounds received in Afghanistan. The other 24 died in other Arabian countries. I also provided references for four more servicemen, who are not on icasuaties.org's lsit, but were confirmed by DoD to be fatalities of OEF. So that makes 28 to have died in other countries in support of operations in Afghanistan. A total of 636. I stated here in the article the 608 number of killed in or around Afghanistan, with an addition of 28 killed in other countries, just like that Canadian. I also, just like Publicus proposed, stated, noted that the 608 number given by icasualties.org is higher than the official DoD's tally, even if all of those 608 names were confirmed by DoD. If you would calm down and listen to this you would see that I am right.
BobaFett85 (
talk)
07:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
Nevertheless Mike expressed a keep vote and I already discussed with him about the course on what we should to to expand the article, also what I ment by reinserting the deleted material was reinserting all of the things YOU are currently reinserting, the chronological list of soldiers killed. You yourself are reinserting it. And if that article is deleted I personaly will report you for reinserting material that is in violation of the Memorial rule, since you like to wave the Wikipedia rules so much so can I. And also this is no joke, the errors in numbers I made before were anticipated. Hell, the US government even initialy thought that 6,000 and not 3,000 people died on 9/11. But, now I have corrected all of the errors and have come to a definite number. Listen, for the last time. Icasualties.org lists 608, not 601, but 608 names of servicemen to have died in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan or in military hospitals from wounds received in Afghanistan. All of the names were confirmed by DoD. In any case the new article lists the names of soldiers killed almost just like this article here did it so there is no need for this article to contain the list since it is in the new article. I realy don't understand you, you yourself said a week ago you woulnd't have a problem with a subsection on out-of-country deaths and you yourself said you wouldn't have a problem to move the US deaths from the list in this article to a new article. BobaFett85 ( talk) 07:12, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello, the Afghan army is part of the coalition, they fight side by side with NATO troops against the Taliban. Are there no casualty figures for Afghans? 78.105.234.140 ( talk) 12:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
I just noticed that the total for US casualties took a huge jump in this edit. can any one confirm or correct the number? Mike McGregor (Can) ( talk) 23:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't Pakistani casualties be included? Pakistan is part of the coalition, and can be considered 'international'?
VR talk 19:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
do we know how many civilians have died over there? thanks. n-dimensional §кakkl€ 05:10, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
1) THE TOTAL IS WRONG. 2) FRENCH CASUALTIES ARE NOW 39 (01/13/2010) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxloupio ( talk • contribs) 13:50, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes you are right.FRENCH CASUALTIES are 39.
http://www.icasualties.org/OEF/index.aspx —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
119.152.86.242 (
talk)
22:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
Just saying, but Australian casualties now number 18, not 17. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.176.62.136 ( talk) 08:01, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
As my english is poor so please forgive me.I tell you in a huge puzzle language.
In the article, US caaualties, 5 CIA and 2 Blckwater agents killed in Camp Chapman incident.
As in the US caualty article.Casualties is according to icaualties.And icaualties doesnt add those 2 blackwater in US caualties data.Icaualties add 5 CIA agenst killed in that incident.
http://icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx
So as in the article "Of the American deaths, more than 700 have died in hostile action. Included in these numbers are 9 CIA operatives that were killed in Afghanistan.According to icasualties.org, 898 US soldiers killed in Afghanistan."
If we write that 11 CIA agenst killed in Afghanistan and 7 killed in that incident.Then US caualties become 702 and the refrence of icaualty is wrong because according to icasualty 700 US soldiers killed as hostile fire.
Maybe you understand what i want to say.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mujahid1947 ( talk • contribs)
Obviously this page is changing all the time so i dont expect it to be spot on, but the number of British deaths is now 263 not 256. Here is the BBC source, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8260060.stm
Keep up the good work. I was impressed by the depth of info! Willski72 ( talk) 15:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
My thanks for the update. I will try and remember to keep an eye-out for any updates and let you know!-- Willski72 ( talk) 16:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Its 266 now im afraid, here's the source from the BBC again, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8538423.stm -- Willski72 ( talk) 13:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
"List of deaths of European soldiers" is partially wrong.
"October 24, 2005 - An Italian soldier, Captain Jesús de la Pascua Belaustegui, died from an illness in Herat."
Captain Jesús de la Pascua Belaustegui wasn't an italian soldier, but a spanish one.
SOURCE : http://afghanistan.pigstye.net/article.php?story=JesusDeLaPascuaBelaustegui
In regards to Wikipedia not being a WP:Memorial to list all the names and details of the dead. There is also the external link that goes into the requisite details, a simple external link would do here. the encyclopaedic content is the info on the losses and the effects, not the memorializing of rank, age, name, etc. Lihaas ( talk) 14:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I would like to argue that this article is not of encyclopedic quality because it provides raw and emotional numbers without giving context. My thesis is that the number of death strictly due to war is in fact lower than one can infer from a quick reading of the article. Note that I don't dispute at all the numbers, only their possible interpretation by un-seasoned Wikipedia readers. Please also note that I deeply respect all the people who made the sacrifice of their life.
There are nearly 200,000,000 adults in USA, and there are nearly 30,000 deaths by car accident every year. Three deaths for 20,000 adults. There are nearly 200 Coalition deaths in Afghanistan per year. There was approximatively 60,000 troops for the whole Coalition during each of the nine years. It means that at least 9 deaths are not directly related to war but to something akin to a car accident. Moreover we can suppose that given the bad road infrastructure, road signs in foreign language if there are any and extreme geographical features of Afghanistan (some areas at more than 20,000 ft above sea level), wide range of temperature and inadequate vehicles for mountain roads: The rate of accidents is certainly much more higher. Let say ten times higher than in USA. It gives 90 deaths per year. Nearly half of the number which could be understood as war deaths. And this is only for car accidents, what about other kind of accident?
{{editsemiprotected}}
Please update link for Casualty Monitor to: http://www.casualty-monitor.org/p/british-casualties-in-afghanistan.html
Thanks!
Readknowwrite ( talk) 20:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
"Of the 512 foreign soldiers killed in 2009, 448 were killed in action. 280 of those were killed by IEDs."
We're all foreign to people outside our country. I assume this means non-US troops. If so, then I shall change it (unless someone gets there first). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psychokinetic ( talk • contribs) 06:33, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
As you can see I have edited it to the correct number of Australian Deaths and have corrected the total deaths in the box and the total deaths in the first section of the article. I think someone already added sources for me because I was not able to do so when I was on my iPad and forgot to do it later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.225.125 ( talk) 06:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
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