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I requested a citation for Catholics who argue against this doctrine, as it would be interesting, and I think important, to know what kind of support this has in the Catholic Church. We know six million signed a petition for it; who's arguing against it? Of those, how many outright don't believe it, and how many are keeping it out of dogma on pragmatic grounds to appease Protestants and Orthodox Christians? -- NZUlysses ( talk) 20:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Why was my statement about the blood of Mary not being redemptive because at no point in her divnine maturnity did she shed her blood as a normal mother would edited out? The statement is wholy within Catholic tradition. I am a doctoral candidate in historical theology at a Jesuit university and already have a degree in systamtic theology from a Jesuis pontifical seminary. The only points of view cited in this Wikidepia against this 'doctrine' are not theological, but practical, namely that it be politically correct in ecuementical relations with Protestants. Neither Catholic nor Orthodox theological opposition to this 'dogma' are cited. I cannot even find an actual theological explanation of this 'doctrine' What is it supposed to mean? It seems to be an additional title without actual theological content that some Catholics want to have formally applied to the Mother of God. I must protest that whoever is the final editer of this site has an undue persoanl bias for the formal propagation of a new Marian title and one without any clear theological content to justificy such an preopagation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.60.247 ( talk) 13:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Isn't it possible that Catholics over-emphasize the role of Mary? Declaring her to be Jesus' mother and venerating her as such is justifiable by tradition and practice, but to declare that ALL GRACES MUST be derived through her intercession is a bit blasphamous. God was around LONG before Mary, why would it be required for her to be involved when things functioned perfectly fine without her? Can not God do things without the Virgin being involved? Mary said she was the "Hand-Maiden of the Lord", His lowly servant, not His go between for humanity. Why, if God became incarnate, would we need to have a human female mediatrix, isn't having a God-Man enough? Mary is a human being, not the all powerful semi-divine demi-goddess virgin Catholicism has concocted. I personally believe that this idea, if pronounced Dogma, will be the death nell of Roman Catholicism, because no non-Catholic would ever buy it because it does deminish the role of Christ and the Crucifixion by giving some (although small) of the credit to Mary, something unheard of in the history of Christianity. Maybe this doctrine has more to do with dominating Italian mothers and the human mother-child relationship than it does with anything based in reality? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.60.247 ( talk) 13:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I have found this interesting claim that Saint-Germain/ Enoch/Metatron was also Saint Joseph, the husband of Mary. If this was the case, Enoch could almost be considered to be a Co-Redemptor too. [1] ADM ( talk) 03:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
There are interesting quotes from Scripture that are used to argue in favour of this doctrine. These should probably be added. ADM ( talk) 22:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
> Any dogma would likely attempt to clarify Catholic teaching, that Mary's role is subordinate to and always dependent upon the essential and chief role of her Son.
Not exactly. Nowadays the strongest reasoning for Mary as Co-Redemptor is that original sin was taken on by man and woman (Adam and Eve) and thus cannot be removed but by man and woman acting together (Jesus and Mary).
Therefore Mary's role in redempting mankind is not inferior, just like the role of Eve in eating the apple of knowledge in the Garden of Eden was not inferior. 82.131.210.163 ( talk) 18:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
This also means that HE CAN do anything regardless of the Virgin. Hence no reason for her to be involved and certainly not for it to be considered dogma.
Btw I wouldn't be too sure to contribute to Adam and Eve equal parts in committing original sin. Paul attributes it to Adam without even mentioning Eve.-- 84.154.86.97 ( talk) 17:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC) And St. Thomas Aquinas says Eve sinned more in her person than Adam did, but Adam, and he alone, brought the sin physically to his descendants. Well we hopefully agree that Christ brought salvation to all mankind. But that shows that your parallel can't be drawn since if we believe from St. Thomas that the personal sin of Eve was bigger than Adam's, to state the reverse about the relation of Christ's (blessed be His Name) and His virgin mother's holiness would be an abomination. -- 217.189.254.116 ( talk) 21:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
is the unreliability of the source which I wanted to quote, being a partisan source and quoted as a partisan source, so that a reader might in a better way achieve to inform himself sufficiently? And, pardon me, even if the source is not the best, I should think a non-ideal source of this party is better than only sources of the other party. (Which is, in that case, the Diocesan Bishop of Harlem - "unsourced" in a technical sense but both well-known and, I should think, easy to source still via Internet. I also think, without checking, that the other internet pages which were in the article before November 3rd were almost all quite pro-dogmatisation and pro-Amsterdam. The respective IP's 217.189.254.116, 131.159.0.7, 84.154.83.72 have been myself.) If you want a personal standpoint, for clearness about what we are talking: I think that co-redemptrix is a pious and accurate title of the Blessed Virgin, that none of the papal teaching given by now was, though they were fallible, erroneous, and that this title suffers, instead of being fostered, by the dogmatisation proposal and the Amsterdam apparition. As seen in the previous form of the article. "if the Holy See approves of it" - the Holy See and a proposed Dogma and we speak of approving, just the same as the Holy See may approve of the English translation of the Roman Missal! What concerns this apparition, I can't personally help being convinced by the arguments given in the document I wanted to cite, and happily I'm no member of the Diocese of Harlem and, thus, not so strictly forced to take His Lordship their Bishop's saying as Church authority. What I would decide neither in the positive nor in the negative, is whether Bishop Punt's decision is, from a canonical standpoint, even so much as a decision, there apparently being a Roman decision declaring the matter closed. I can't help to speculate that maybe, besides the obvious reason of ecumenism, the apparition could have been another reason for Vatican II being silent on Coredemptrix and rather vague on Mediatrix. All that said in the sincere wish to obey to God, to the Church, especially but not restricted to the Holy See, and also to supernatural apparitions if indeed they are. [And if they command, by the way: I don't bind myself, herewith, to obey their counsels.] -- 77.4.91.211 ( talk) 23:40, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Possibly the Vatican may declare the Blessed Virgin Mary as official co-redemptrix, on the the occasion of Fatima's one hundredth anniversary of the visions in 2017-2018. 87.97.55.9 ( talk) 22:48, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
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As my Dutch is a bit rusty, I've no idea what term Ms. Peerdeman used, but I find reputable sources using the current term as translated. Mannanan51 ( talk) 21:15, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
I see some logic in the hyphenated form in English. As hyphenated words become more used in English, they lose the hyphen. Here, since the term has been rejected by the magisterium, it seems to me better to not sanction it as a usable title by removing the hyphen. Jzsj ( talk) 22:07, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
No consensus to move. After extended time for discussion, there is nearly as much opposition as support for the move. Both titles are permissible and supported by some amount of evidence, so a stronger showing of consensus is required to change the status quo. bd2412 T 02:44, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Co-Redemptrix → Coredemptrix – Cannot swap page with its redirect because redirect has two lines of edit history instead of one Jdcompguy ( talk) 18:47, 7 May 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. DannyS712 ( talk) 06:20, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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I requested a citation for Catholics who argue against this doctrine, as it would be interesting, and I think important, to know what kind of support this has in the Catholic Church. We know six million signed a petition for it; who's arguing against it? Of those, how many outright don't believe it, and how many are keeping it out of dogma on pragmatic grounds to appease Protestants and Orthodox Christians? -- NZUlysses ( talk) 20:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
Why was my statement about the blood of Mary not being redemptive because at no point in her divnine maturnity did she shed her blood as a normal mother would edited out? The statement is wholy within Catholic tradition. I am a doctoral candidate in historical theology at a Jesuit university and already have a degree in systamtic theology from a Jesuis pontifical seminary. The only points of view cited in this Wikidepia against this 'doctrine' are not theological, but practical, namely that it be politically correct in ecuementical relations with Protestants. Neither Catholic nor Orthodox theological opposition to this 'dogma' are cited. I cannot even find an actual theological explanation of this 'doctrine' What is it supposed to mean? It seems to be an additional title without actual theological content that some Catholics want to have formally applied to the Mother of God. I must protest that whoever is the final editer of this site has an undue persoanl bias for the formal propagation of a new Marian title and one without any clear theological content to justificy such an preopagation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.60.247 ( talk) 13:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
Isn't it possible that Catholics over-emphasize the role of Mary? Declaring her to be Jesus' mother and venerating her as such is justifiable by tradition and practice, but to declare that ALL GRACES MUST be derived through her intercession is a bit blasphamous. God was around LONG before Mary, why would it be required for her to be involved when things functioned perfectly fine without her? Can not God do things without the Virgin being involved? Mary said she was the "Hand-Maiden of the Lord", His lowly servant, not His go between for humanity. Why, if God became incarnate, would we need to have a human female mediatrix, isn't having a God-Man enough? Mary is a human being, not the all powerful semi-divine demi-goddess virgin Catholicism has concocted. I personally believe that this idea, if pronounced Dogma, will be the death nell of Roman Catholicism, because no non-Catholic would ever buy it because it does deminish the role of Christ and the Crucifixion by giving some (although small) of the credit to Mary, something unheard of in the history of Christianity. Maybe this doctrine has more to do with dominating Italian mothers and the human mother-child relationship than it does with anything based in reality? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.41.60.247 ( talk) 13:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
I have found this interesting claim that Saint-Germain/ Enoch/Metatron was also Saint Joseph, the husband of Mary. If this was the case, Enoch could almost be considered to be a Co-Redemptor too. [1] ADM ( talk) 03:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
There are interesting quotes from Scripture that are used to argue in favour of this doctrine. These should probably be added. ADM ( talk) 22:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
> Any dogma would likely attempt to clarify Catholic teaching, that Mary's role is subordinate to and always dependent upon the essential and chief role of her Son.
Not exactly. Nowadays the strongest reasoning for Mary as Co-Redemptor is that original sin was taken on by man and woman (Adam and Eve) and thus cannot be removed but by man and woman acting together (Jesus and Mary).
Therefore Mary's role in redempting mankind is not inferior, just like the role of Eve in eating the apple of knowledge in the Garden of Eden was not inferior. 82.131.210.163 ( talk) 18:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
This also means that HE CAN do anything regardless of the Virgin. Hence no reason for her to be involved and certainly not for it to be considered dogma.
Btw I wouldn't be too sure to contribute to Adam and Eve equal parts in committing original sin. Paul attributes it to Adam without even mentioning Eve.-- 84.154.86.97 ( talk) 17:18, 14 March 2010 (UTC) And St. Thomas Aquinas says Eve sinned more in her person than Adam did, but Adam, and he alone, brought the sin physically to his descendants. Well we hopefully agree that Christ brought salvation to all mankind. But that shows that your parallel can't be drawn since if we believe from St. Thomas that the personal sin of Eve was bigger than Adam's, to state the reverse about the relation of Christ's (blessed be His Name) and His virgin mother's holiness would be an abomination. -- 217.189.254.116 ( talk) 21:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
is the unreliability of the source which I wanted to quote, being a partisan source and quoted as a partisan source, so that a reader might in a better way achieve to inform himself sufficiently? And, pardon me, even if the source is not the best, I should think a non-ideal source of this party is better than only sources of the other party. (Which is, in that case, the Diocesan Bishop of Harlem - "unsourced" in a technical sense but both well-known and, I should think, easy to source still via Internet. I also think, without checking, that the other internet pages which were in the article before November 3rd were almost all quite pro-dogmatisation and pro-Amsterdam. The respective IP's 217.189.254.116, 131.159.0.7, 84.154.83.72 have been myself.) If you want a personal standpoint, for clearness about what we are talking: I think that co-redemptrix is a pious and accurate title of the Blessed Virgin, that none of the papal teaching given by now was, though they were fallible, erroneous, and that this title suffers, instead of being fostered, by the dogmatisation proposal and the Amsterdam apparition. As seen in the previous form of the article. "if the Holy See approves of it" - the Holy See and a proposed Dogma and we speak of approving, just the same as the Holy See may approve of the English translation of the Roman Missal! What concerns this apparition, I can't personally help being convinced by the arguments given in the document I wanted to cite, and happily I'm no member of the Diocese of Harlem and, thus, not so strictly forced to take His Lordship their Bishop's saying as Church authority. What I would decide neither in the positive nor in the negative, is whether Bishop Punt's decision is, from a canonical standpoint, even so much as a decision, there apparently being a Roman decision declaring the matter closed. I can't help to speculate that maybe, besides the obvious reason of ecumenism, the apparition could have been another reason for Vatican II being silent on Coredemptrix and rather vague on Mediatrix. All that said in the sincere wish to obey to God, to the Church, especially but not restricted to the Holy See, and also to supernatural apparitions if indeed they are. [And if they command, by the way: I don't bind myself, herewith, to obey their counsels.] -- 77.4.91.211 ( talk) 23:40, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Possibly the Vatican may declare the Blessed Virgin Mary as official co-redemptrix, on the the occasion of Fatima's one hundredth anniversary of the visions in 2017-2018. 87.97.55.9 ( talk) 22:48, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 05:15, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
As my Dutch is a bit rusty, I've no idea what term Ms. Peerdeman used, but I find reputable sources using the current term as translated. Mannanan51 ( talk) 21:15, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
I see some logic in the hyphenated form in English. As hyphenated words become more used in English, they lose the hyphen. Here, since the term has been rejected by the magisterium, it seems to me better to not sanction it as a usable title by removing the hyphen. Jzsj ( talk) 22:07, 7 May 2019 (UTC)
No consensus to move. After extended time for discussion, there is nearly as much opposition as support for the move. Both titles are permissible and supported by some amount of evidence, so a stronger showing of consensus is required to change the status quo. bd2412 T 02:44, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
Co-Redemptrix → Coredemptrix – Cannot swap page with its redirect because redirect has two lines of edit history instead of one Jdcompguy ( talk) 18:47, 7 May 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. DannyS712 ( talk) 06:20, 14 May 2019 (UTC)