This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LinguisticsWikipedia:WikiProject LinguisticsTemplate:WikiProject LinguisticsLinguistics articles
Yes, Estonian õ is a central vowel, this one here a back vowel. Nonetheless, no central vowel linked in the graph sounds similar to Estonian õ. And, errraneously, Estonian wiki also uses symbol [ɤ] for letter õ. --
Constanz -
Talk10:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)reply
It appears to be a convention in Estonian linguistics to use [ɤ] for the Estonian mid-central "õ" sound, contrary to the IPA standard - apparently because there isn't any other appropriate symbol for the sound. This should be checked upon.
PeepP21:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Appearantly, these conventions have mislead linguists of other nations: [Estonian] does not allow mid back unrounded [ ] in non-initial syllables..[1] thus they do think õ is [ɤ].--
Constanz -
Talk07:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)reply
If Estonian <õ> really is a mid central unrounded vowel rather than a mid back unrounded vowel, then its symbol ought to be [ɘ] rather than [ɤ]. Nevertheless it is extremely common for linguists focusing on a particular language to use conventional symbols in away not entirely consistent with their canonical IPA values. Russian <ы> is customarily transcribed as [ɨ] although it's far enough back to be [ɯ]. The Eastern American English "thought" vowel is customarily transcribed as [ɔ] even though it's low enough to be [ɒ]. Ideal IPA practice is quite different from what real-life linguists actually do, and always has been. (I don't think I've ever seen [ɘ] used in any phonology or phonetics article I've ever read, only in IPA charts.)
User:Angr19:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Well, does anyone have the Finno-Ugric Transcription for Estonian? That system seems to have more vowel contrasts than IPA. On the other hand I can confirm hearing <õ> as high up as [ɯ] in some cases, though I'd buy the [ɘ] for unstressed positions. I know a couple Turks who, in describing their <ı> sound have said that it sounds a lot like the Estonian <õ> to their ears. In a way that confirms my own experiences of being taught the sound by an Estonian. When I actually produced a [ɤ] she didn't feel like it was high enough, though that may have been a result of it being in recitation form, though it certainly was [ɯ] initially (tonguetwister, õueaiamaa jõeääres 'apple orchard on the river shore'). The article should maybe be edited to say that Estonian is commonly said to have [ɤ], though this is not true in all positions and it's more of a convention?
Finno-Ugric Transcription for estonian õ is e with a curve below the letter, meaning a mid-vowel e. UPT [e] itself is closer to IPA [ɛ].
Constanz -
Talk10:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Yorkshire English
Where does the claim that this vowel is used in Yorkshire English hope come from? That vowel is usually transcribed as rounded, I think (though as different rounded vowels depending on the variety).--
JHJ16:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)reply
I'm going to remove it, based on
this paper, which reveals a complex situation involving various monophthongs and diphthongs in Bradford English, and does not mention a back unrounded vowel anywhere as far as I can tell.--
JHJ12:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)reply
I think the classification is accurate, but the sound sample in this article is bad (and that's what misleads Bulgarian users). In contrast, the Chinese sample [xɤ˥]ⓘ sounds pretty much like the Bulgarian vowel, as do the samples for ɤ in
this and
this online IPA charts.--
Anonymous44 (
talk)
19:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)reply
I agree that the sound sample for
ɤ does not correspond well to to the stressed Bulgarian ъ. A sound sample that completely corresponds to the stressed ъ, as in път, ръб, пън, сън, etc., is that given in
ɞ (I do not know how close is this sample to the true sounding ɞ). On the other hand, unstressed ъ sounds almost exactly as the sound sample in
ə. Bulgarians often mistake unstressed ъ with а, in fact, this is one of the most frequent spelling errors. --
Lantonov (
talk)
07:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)reply
The vowel is ɤ̞: somewhat more open, this is why there seems to be some confusion. It is a subtile difference. And anyway, Bulgarian is no longer listed in this article. --
Kreuzkümmel (
talk)
11:59, 27 June 2016 (UTC)reply
In my idiolect, this is precisely the pre-closed "ə" in "əʊ", aka my realization of "u" (sort of making "ɤɯ" in the end). My idiolect of Standard American is characterized by notable lack of rounding (caught-cot merger, "go" -> "gʌɯ").
Squirrelous (
talk)
17:34, 12 March 2014 (UTC)reply
The sound occurs in some dialects of
AAVE. The sound clip for the vowel in this article sounds precisely like the AAVE equivalent of 'ew' or 'ugh' to my ears, but the AAVE vowel may be a bit less tense and/or less back. It occurs in the word 'good' too, although sometimes has an off-glide to something fronter and higher. --
Pyry (
talk)
20:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)reply
I know this is a tiny bit late to comment, but I also hear it in AAVE, often replacing an l, like /hɛl/-->/hɛɤ/. I'm going to be bold and add it, but feel free to revert it and discuss out here.
Qwed117 (
talk)
16:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)reply
The sound [ɤ:] occurs in my own idiolect of English (northern England). It is the vowel in words such as "moor", "tour", "mourn". Most dialects of English do not have a separate phoneme in these words, so for instance "moor" and "more" are pronounced the same.
91.107.138.244 (
talk)
01:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Linguistics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
linguistics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LinguisticsWikipedia:WikiProject LinguisticsTemplate:WikiProject LinguisticsLinguistics articles
Yes, Estonian õ is a central vowel, this one here a back vowel. Nonetheless, no central vowel linked in the graph sounds similar to Estonian õ. And, errraneously, Estonian wiki also uses symbol [ɤ] for letter õ. --
Constanz -
Talk10:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)reply
It appears to be a convention in Estonian linguistics to use [ɤ] for the Estonian mid-central "õ" sound, contrary to the IPA standard - apparently because there isn't any other appropriate symbol for the sound. This should be checked upon.
PeepP21:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)reply
Appearantly, these conventions have mislead linguists of other nations: [Estonian] does not allow mid back unrounded [ ] in non-initial syllables..[1] thus they do think õ is [ɤ].--
Constanz -
Talk07:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)reply
If Estonian <õ> really is a mid central unrounded vowel rather than a mid back unrounded vowel, then its symbol ought to be [ɘ] rather than [ɤ]. Nevertheless it is extremely common for linguists focusing on a particular language to use conventional symbols in away not entirely consistent with their canonical IPA values. Russian <ы> is customarily transcribed as [ɨ] although it's far enough back to be [ɯ]. The Eastern American English "thought" vowel is customarily transcribed as [ɔ] even though it's low enough to be [ɒ]. Ideal IPA practice is quite different from what real-life linguists actually do, and always has been. (I don't think I've ever seen [ɘ] used in any phonology or phonetics article I've ever read, only in IPA charts.)
User:Angr19:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Well, does anyone have the Finno-Ugric Transcription for Estonian? That system seems to have more vowel contrasts than IPA. On the other hand I can confirm hearing <õ> as high up as [ɯ] in some cases, though I'd buy the [ɘ] for unstressed positions. I know a couple Turks who, in describing their <ı> sound have said that it sounds a lot like the Estonian <õ> to their ears. In a way that confirms my own experiences of being taught the sound by an Estonian. When I actually produced a [ɤ] she didn't feel like it was high enough, though that may have been a result of it being in recitation form, though it certainly was [ɯ] initially (tonguetwister, õueaiamaa jõeääres 'apple orchard on the river shore'). The article should maybe be edited to say that Estonian is commonly said to have [ɤ], though this is not true in all positions and it's more of a convention?
Finno-Ugric Transcription for estonian õ is e with a curve below the letter, meaning a mid-vowel e. UPT [e] itself is closer to IPA [ɛ].
Constanz -
Talk10:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)reply
Yorkshire English
Where does the claim that this vowel is used in Yorkshire English hope come from? That vowel is usually transcribed as rounded, I think (though as different rounded vowels depending on the variety).--
JHJ16:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)reply
I'm going to remove it, based on
this paper, which reveals a complex situation involving various monophthongs and diphthongs in Bradford English, and does not mention a back unrounded vowel anywhere as far as I can tell.--
JHJ12:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)reply
I think the classification is accurate, but the sound sample in this article is bad (and that's what misleads Bulgarian users). In contrast, the Chinese sample [xɤ˥]ⓘ sounds pretty much like the Bulgarian vowel, as do the samples for ɤ in
this and
this online IPA charts.--
Anonymous44 (
talk)
19:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)reply
I agree that the sound sample for
ɤ does not correspond well to to the stressed Bulgarian ъ. A sound sample that completely corresponds to the stressed ъ, as in път, ръб, пън, сън, etc., is that given in
ɞ (I do not know how close is this sample to the true sounding ɞ). On the other hand, unstressed ъ sounds almost exactly as the sound sample in
ə. Bulgarians often mistake unstressed ъ with а, in fact, this is one of the most frequent spelling errors. --
Lantonov (
talk)
07:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)reply
The vowel is ɤ̞: somewhat more open, this is why there seems to be some confusion. It is a subtile difference. And anyway, Bulgarian is no longer listed in this article. --
Kreuzkümmel (
talk)
11:59, 27 June 2016 (UTC)reply
In my idiolect, this is precisely the pre-closed "ə" in "əʊ", aka my realization of "u" (sort of making "ɤɯ" in the end). My idiolect of Standard American is characterized by notable lack of rounding (caught-cot merger, "go" -> "gʌɯ").
Squirrelous (
talk)
17:34, 12 March 2014 (UTC)reply
The sound occurs in some dialects of
AAVE. The sound clip for the vowel in this article sounds precisely like the AAVE equivalent of 'ew' or 'ugh' to my ears, but the AAVE vowel may be a bit less tense and/or less back. It occurs in the word 'good' too, although sometimes has an off-glide to something fronter and higher. --
Pyry (
talk)
20:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)reply
I know this is a tiny bit late to comment, but I also hear it in AAVE, often replacing an l, like /hɛl/-->/hɛɤ/. I'm going to be bold and add it, but feel free to revert it and discuss out here.
Qwed117 (
talk)
16:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)reply
The sound [ɤ:] occurs in my own idiolect of English (northern England). It is the vowel in words such as "moor", "tour", "mourn". Most dialects of English do not have a separate phoneme in these words, so for instance "moor" and "more" are pronounced the same.
91.107.138.244 (
talk)
01:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)reply