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This article currently lacks the reasoning why many climate scientists argue that we are in a climate emergency. Is is okay I lay out the reasoning first in the definition section and then in the second sentence of the lede, based on two scientific articles: the first BioScience article (primary source), which was used by Lenton's recent paper (secondary source)? I think this fits well within the scope of the article as it gives an explanation to why people changed the terminology from a scientific (instead of political) viewpoint. It is different from previous attempts at inserting argumentation for a crisis by just collecting alarmist articles about climate change. The argumentation consists of two aspect: there is little time to act left and the observed and projected effects of global warming are getting bad. Femke Nijsse ( talk) 09:04, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
An important aspect of this question is whether we should consider 'climate crisis' and 'climate emergency' as synonyms. I think they are, but I'm open to suggestions otherwise. Femke Nijsse ( talk) 08:51, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
She describes a crisis emergency as a situation where: The threat has never been encountered before, so there are no plans in place to manage it. It may be a familiar event, however, it is occurring at unprecedented speed, therefore developing an appropriate response is challenging. There may be a confluence of forces, which, while not new individually, in combination pose unique challenges to the response.Her first sentence suggests that if there are any plans to manage climate change, then it'll no longer be a crisis. So if some international agreement is in place, then it's no longer a crisis? Next, "occurring at unprecedented speed" may or may not apply. Didn't climate change occur even faster when an asteroid hit the earth 60 million years ago? The three sentences together bring in irrelevancies that confuse the issue. As pointed out earlier, Phelps is not talking explicitly about climate, so perhaps her definition makes more sense in a different context. NightHeron ( talk) 14:12, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 14:17, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Climate crisis → Climate crisis (term) – Climate crisis is widely used by reliable sources instead of or alongside climate change (see below), and should redirect there. The current article deals with the term itself rather than the topic it refers to and should be moved to Climate crisis (term). ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 13:44, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
I am just wondering if it might be useful to merge climate communication to here, or to merge both articles together under a new title, as they are pretty much about the same thing. They are both about how climate change is communicated and the term "climate crisis", as well as all of its derivatives, like "climate chaos", "climate emergency" etc. are all different ways to communicate the issues to the public. Looking at the view rates for both articles, they both linger at low view rates since their creation. I think a combined article would make sense. (happy to be shot down in flames now ;-) ) P.S. the article climate movement is also closely related, but more distinct, I guess. EMsmile ( talk) 01:30, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2021 and 23 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Vanessa Li (YYL). Peer reviewers:
Abigailcampbell7.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 19:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
The AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dominika Lasota has been relisted twice, with the hope of getting more participation by experienced editors. Boud ( talk) 19:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose merging Climate apocalypse and climate endgame into this article. Not only is there a significant overlap between all three articles, but the current article is both small enough to accommodate the merge of all relevant information and is by far the best of the three, lacking the fundamental issues which plague the other two articles. It is also already featured on Template:Climate change, making it easier to find within Wikipedia than the others.
Climate endgame article is devoted to a single "perspective" paper (a peer-reviewed opinion piece from scientists, more-or-less, rather than fundamentally new research) and the article itself consists of only a handful of small paragraphs, so it can be merged very easily without losing anything.
Climate apocalypse is a bit more complicated. Several sections fully fit the scope of this article and can be merged with only slight edits and no meaningful loss of information - I'm thinking about "Etymology and usage", "Narratives of climate change" and maybe "Famous figures" (although that is a very messy section and it would be difficult to retain it while setting non-arbitrary criteria on just who is famous enough for it). Parts of those sections could also be moved to Climate change in popular culture.
Unfortunately, the rest of the article is a badly sensationalized version of Effects of climate change, where it effectively ends up either uncritically fringe narratives, misrepresenting more reliable sources or performing what amounts to WP:SYNTHESIS on a range of obscure sources.
I have previously wrote my detailed criticisms of that article over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Climate_change#Climate_apocalypse_and_climate_endgame_articles, and I guess I'll go over them again.
You can see already see that this section is very vague and full of WP:WEASEL. It technically has 4 references, but one is a YouTube video and the other three are basically the same, consisting of this paper and two news articles about it. Moreover, these sources are hardly even congruent with either each other or the text, since the video is about a 5 degree scenario, which is never even mentioned in the paper. In fact, the paper also makes no mention of any part of the Earth being rendered uninhabitable, and nor does it predict any "inability to grow crops". What's more, its "Ecological Overshoot: Population Size and Overconsumption" section ends with an acknowledgement that the authors do not actually expect the human population to decline due to climate change during this century. (Which is, of course, the mainstream scientific position, as represented by the IPCC reports, where the only reason why human population might be lower in 2100 than it is today is due to declining population-level fertility from widespread access to birth control.)
Lastly, several predictions at the end of the article are presented largely uncritically in a manner uncharacteristic (and unbecoming) of a Wikipedia article. Examples:
In all, I suggest that we move every section to do with the communication of climate risks into this article (while also helping to put each one in its proper context: i.e. the sections on Franzen's piece and "2050 scenario" can stay, but only with their criticism from fact-checkers included), move the parts discussing popular culture to Climate change in popular culture, and just let go of the rest (mainly the poor version of effects of climate change) before turning that page into a redirect here, since there's no real value to salvage.
@ RCraig09: as the primary author of this article.
@ Ebenwilliams, Bluerasberry, Prototyperspective, and Alvarosinde: as the primary authors of climate apocalypse and climate endgame. InformationToKnowledge ( talk) 06:26, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
As my 06:42 18 Jan post demonstrates, "climate crisis" is a commonly-used reliably sourced characterization of the present reality, and "climate apocalypse" is a hypothetical physical situation that few if any reliable sources state as present reality.
The issue with this approach is its narrow focus on "present reality", while ignoring the future. We live in a world where the largest climate activist groups outright call themselves Extinction Rebellion and, quite literally, The Last Generation. To suggest that the bulk of their participants do not believe that "climate crisis (present) -> climate apocalypse (future)" is naive in the extreme. Considering the size of these groups, this belief alone is worthy of discussion, and I believe that this article is the best place to do so.
Right now, this article is too focused on "when?" and is extremely vague on "why?" The only points where it discusses the motivation behind the subject are this sentence in the lead.
In the scientific journal BioScience, a January 2020 article, endorsed by over 11,000 scientists worldwide, statedthat "the climate crisis has arrived" and that an "immense increase of scale in endeavors to conserve our biosphere is needed to avoid untold suffering due to the climate crisis.
and in the "Scientific Basis" + "Description" sections.
While powerful language had long been used in advocacy, politics and media, until the late 2010s the scientific community traditionally remained more constrained in its language.[13] However, in a November 2019 statement published in the January 2020 issue of the scientific journal BioScience, a group of over 11,000 scientists argued that describing global warming as a climate emergency or climate crisis was appropriate.[14] The scientists stated that an "immense increase of scale in endeavor" is needed to conserve the biosphere, but noted "profoundly troubling signs" including sustained increases in livestock populations, meat production, tree cover loss, fossil fuel consumption, air transport, and CO2 emissions—concurrent with upward trends in climate impacts such as rising temperatures, global ice melt, and extreme weather,[5] which in turn can also have many indirect impacts such as large-scale migration and food insecurity. Also in November 2019, an article published in Nature concluded that evidence from climate tipping points alone suggests that "we are in a state of planetary emergency", defining emergency as a product of risk and urgency, with both factors judged to be "acute".[15] The Nature article referenced recent IPCC Special Reports (2018, 2019) suggesting individual tipping points could be exceeded with as little as 1–2 °C of global average warming (current warming is ~1 °C), with a global cascade of tipping points possible with greater warming
In the context of climate change, Pierre Mukheibir, Professor of Water Futures at the University of Technology Sydney, states that the term crisis is "a crucial or decisive point or situation that could lead to a tipping point," one involving an "unprecedented circumstance."[4] A dictionary definition states that "crisis" in this context means "a turning point or a condition of instability or danger," and implies that "action needs to be taken now or else the consequences will be disastrous."[16] Another definition differentiates the term from global warming and climate change and defines climate crisis as "the various negative effects that unmitigated climate change is causing or threatening to cause on our planet, especially where these effects have a direct impact on humanity.
The issue is that this is so vague as to be read in almost countless ways, depending on the level of one's knowledge and assumptions. For many people, phrases like "untold suffering", "a global cascade of tipping points" and "the consequences will be disastrous" already bring up the idea of an apocalypse, and not the relatively dry scientific findings or whatever it is you think makes the two terms different. We do no favors to anybody by failing to delve deeper. After all, the article already has "Concerns about crisis terminology" section, even though I suspect it's frankly meaningless to an average person, full of quotes that are easy to misinterpret. I.e.
Finally, it may be counterproductive by causing disbelief (absent immediate dramatic effects), disempowerment (in the face of a problem that seems overwhelming), and withdrawal—rather than providing practical action over the long term.
Relying on this article alone, can anyone explain what "the long term" even is? To someone who genuinely considers themselves a member of The Last Generation (and people with such inclinations are more likely to be reading an article like this then most), it means something very different to what it means in the professional literature. Likewise, people do not care about whether or not something seems overwhelming, as much as they care about whether or not it actually is overwhelming. The way the article is structured, there is no way to get a clear answer on that point. (Just consider the first page image and what sort of a message it sends.)
In all, this article is overly narrow by not recognizing that the apocalypse rhetoric is a clear outgrowth of the crisis rhetoric, and consequently, they need to be discussed in tandem - which includes apocalyptic claims and the pushback they received. Some of those were in fact published in reliable sources as well - i.e. Franzen's piece, which was published in The New Yorker, generally considered more reliable than half the sources in "Related terminology". Likewise, if Greta Thunberg talking about "ecological breakdown" (itself a rather apocalyptic term), "ecological crisis" and "ecological emergency" is considered WP:NOTABLE and worthy of inclusion in this article, is there a defensible reason not to include Roger Hallam (activist) claiming that climate change would kill 6 billion people, and the media coverage + scientific pushback it received?
Finally, if you read the scientific paper where the term climate endgame was proposed in the first place, it does very little to actually advance a new hypothesis. In fact, much of the paper is devoted to terminology - precisely the scope of this article. InformationToKnowledge ( talk) 07:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
— Since you are relatively new to Wikipedia, you would be wise to perform less ambitious projects, such as cleaning up the CApocalypse article and merging a cleaned-up CEndgame into it. Those two articles are simply beyond the scope of the present (terminology) article, and you will save a lot of everyone's time, including your own, if you don't attempt a merge here. —
RCraig09 (
talk)
09:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
—
WP:TOPIC summarizes the issue of article content. Since scientific consensus is that the climate crisis will NOT develop into (~alarmist) Apocalypse or Endgame scenarios, links to those articles are now kept in the /* See also */ section to avoid conflation with the widely used climate crisis. Aside: it's more productive on Talk Pages to focus concisely on Wikipedia policies rather than long essays. —
RCraig09 (
talk)
17:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
(continued from above, "Merger proposal")
In a speech about climate change from April 4th of this year, UN General Secretary António Guterres lambasted “the empty pledges that put us on track to an unlivable world” and warned that “we are on a fast track to climate disaster” (1). Although stark, Guterres’ statements were not novel. Guterres has made similar remarks on previous occasions, as have other public figures, including Sir David Attenborough, who warned in 2018 that inaction on climate change could lead to “the collapse of our civilizations” (2). In their article, “World Scientists’ Warning of a Climate Emergency 2021”—which now has more than 14,700 signatories from 158 countries—William J. Ripple and colleagues state that climate change could “cause significant disruptions to ecosystems, society, and economies, potentially making large areas of Earth uninhabitable” (3).
Because civilization cannot exist in unlivable or uninhabitable places, all of the above warnings can be understood as asserting the potential for anthropogenic climate change to cause civilization collapse (or “climate collapse”) to a greater or lesser extent. Yet despite discussing many adverse impacts, climate science literature, as synthesized for instance by assessment reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), has little at all to say about whether or under which conditions climate change might threaten civilization. Although a body of scientific research exists on historical and archeological cases of collapse (4), discussions of mechanisms whereby climate change might cause the collapse of current civilizations has mostly been the province of journalists, philosophers, novelists, and filmmakers. We believe that this should change.
What article name would summarize both sides of all 3+ items in my list? It's the threshold question defining where your new content belongs. — RCraig09 ( talk) 06:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
ITK: as a rule, it's best to make changes incrementally with specific edit comments, especially in your first few thousand edits on Wikipedia.(totally new articles excepted since there was nothing to "change" to begin with) Incremental changes let the community of editors see what is proposed, and respond accordingly before anyone has spent inordinate amounts of time. Subject matter expertise is very different from Wikipedia experience, and massive changes can be disruptive and can be interpreted as a violation of WP:OWN. Related: brevity is king, both in the article space and on Talk Pages. — RCraig09 ( talk) 18:49, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Just a house keeping update: in the meantime, the article Climate endgame has been merged into Climate apocalypse. Discussions about this, and further work, are available here at the WikiProject Climate Change talk page: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Climate_change#Climate_apocalypse_and_climate_endgame_articles EMsmile ( talk) 13:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
This article currently lacks the reasoning why many climate scientists argue that we are in a climate emergency. Is is okay I lay out the reasoning first in the definition section and then in the second sentence of the lede, based on two scientific articles: the first BioScience article (primary source), which was used by Lenton's recent paper (secondary source)? I think this fits well within the scope of the article as it gives an explanation to why people changed the terminology from a scientific (instead of political) viewpoint. It is different from previous attempts at inserting argumentation for a crisis by just collecting alarmist articles about climate change. The argumentation consists of two aspect: there is little time to act left and the observed and projected effects of global warming are getting bad. Femke Nijsse ( talk) 09:04, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
An important aspect of this question is whether we should consider 'climate crisis' and 'climate emergency' as synonyms. I think they are, but I'm open to suggestions otherwise. Femke Nijsse ( talk) 08:51, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
She describes a crisis emergency as a situation where: The threat has never been encountered before, so there are no plans in place to manage it. It may be a familiar event, however, it is occurring at unprecedented speed, therefore developing an appropriate response is challenging. There may be a confluence of forces, which, while not new individually, in combination pose unique challenges to the response.Her first sentence suggests that if there are any plans to manage climate change, then it'll no longer be a crisis. So if some international agreement is in place, then it's no longer a crisis? Next, "occurring at unprecedented speed" may or may not apply. Didn't climate change occur even faster when an asteroid hit the earth 60 million years ago? The three sentences together bring in irrelevancies that confuse the issue. As pointed out earlier, Phelps is not talking explicitly about climate, so perhaps her definition makes more sense in a different context. NightHeron ( talk) 14:12, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved ( non-admin closure) ( t · c) buidhe 14:17, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
Climate crisis → Climate crisis (term) – Climate crisis is widely used by reliable sources instead of or alongside climate change (see below), and should redirect there. The current article deals with the term itself rather than the topic it refers to and should be moved to Climate crisis (term). ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 13:44, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
I am just wondering if it might be useful to merge climate communication to here, or to merge both articles together under a new title, as they are pretty much about the same thing. They are both about how climate change is communicated and the term "climate crisis", as well as all of its derivatives, like "climate chaos", "climate emergency" etc. are all different ways to communicate the issues to the public. Looking at the view rates for both articles, they both linger at low view rates since their creation. I think a combined article would make sense. (happy to be shot down in flames now ;-) ) P.S. the article climate movement is also closely related, but more distinct, I guess. EMsmile ( talk) 01:30, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 September 2021 and 23 December 2021. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Vanessa Li (YYL). Peer reviewers:
Abigailcampbell7.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 19:11, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
The AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dominika Lasota has been relisted twice, with the hope of getting more participation by experienced editors. Boud ( talk) 19:01, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose merging Climate apocalypse and climate endgame into this article. Not only is there a significant overlap between all three articles, but the current article is both small enough to accommodate the merge of all relevant information and is by far the best of the three, lacking the fundamental issues which plague the other two articles. It is also already featured on Template:Climate change, making it easier to find within Wikipedia than the others.
Climate endgame article is devoted to a single "perspective" paper (a peer-reviewed opinion piece from scientists, more-or-less, rather than fundamentally new research) and the article itself consists of only a handful of small paragraphs, so it can be merged very easily without losing anything.
Climate apocalypse is a bit more complicated. Several sections fully fit the scope of this article and can be merged with only slight edits and no meaningful loss of information - I'm thinking about "Etymology and usage", "Narratives of climate change" and maybe "Famous figures" (although that is a very messy section and it would be difficult to retain it while setting non-arbitrary criteria on just who is famous enough for it). Parts of those sections could also be moved to Climate change in popular culture.
Unfortunately, the rest of the article is a badly sensationalized version of Effects of climate change, where it effectively ends up either uncritically fringe narratives, misrepresenting more reliable sources or performing what amounts to WP:SYNTHESIS on a range of obscure sources.
I have previously wrote my detailed criticisms of that article over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Climate_change#Climate_apocalypse_and_climate_endgame_articles, and I guess I'll go over them again.
You can see already see that this section is very vague and full of WP:WEASEL. It technically has 4 references, but one is a YouTube video and the other three are basically the same, consisting of this paper and two news articles about it. Moreover, these sources are hardly even congruent with either each other or the text, since the video is about a 5 degree scenario, which is never even mentioned in the paper. In fact, the paper also makes no mention of any part of the Earth being rendered uninhabitable, and nor does it predict any "inability to grow crops". What's more, its "Ecological Overshoot: Population Size and Overconsumption" section ends with an acknowledgement that the authors do not actually expect the human population to decline due to climate change during this century. (Which is, of course, the mainstream scientific position, as represented by the IPCC reports, where the only reason why human population might be lower in 2100 than it is today is due to declining population-level fertility from widespread access to birth control.)
Lastly, several predictions at the end of the article are presented largely uncritically in a manner uncharacteristic (and unbecoming) of a Wikipedia article. Examples:
In all, I suggest that we move every section to do with the communication of climate risks into this article (while also helping to put each one in its proper context: i.e. the sections on Franzen's piece and "2050 scenario" can stay, but only with their criticism from fact-checkers included), move the parts discussing popular culture to Climate change in popular culture, and just let go of the rest (mainly the poor version of effects of climate change) before turning that page into a redirect here, since there's no real value to salvage.
@ RCraig09: as the primary author of this article.
@ Ebenwilliams, Bluerasberry, Prototyperspective, and Alvarosinde: as the primary authors of climate apocalypse and climate endgame. InformationToKnowledge ( talk) 06:26, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
As my 06:42 18 Jan post demonstrates, "climate crisis" is a commonly-used reliably sourced characterization of the present reality, and "climate apocalypse" is a hypothetical physical situation that few if any reliable sources state as present reality.
The issue with this approach is its narrow focus on "present reality", while ignoring the future. We live in a world where the largest climate activist groups outright call themselves Extinction Rebellion and, quite literally, The Last Generation. To suggest that the bulk of their participants do not believe that "climate crisis (present) -> climate apocalypse (future)" is naive in the extreme. Considering the size of these groups, this belief alone is worthy of discussion, and I believe that this article is the best place to do so.
Right now, this article is too focused on "when?" and is extremely vague on "why?" The only points where it discusses the motivation behind the subject are this sentence in the lead.
In the scientific journal BioScience, a January 2020 article, endorsed by over 11,000 scientists worldwide, statedthat "the climate crisis has arrived" and that an "immense increase of scale in endeavors to conserve our biosphere is needed to avoid untold suffering due to the climate crisis.
and in the "Scientific Basis" + "Description" sections.
While powerful language had long been used in advocacy, politics and media, until the late 2010s the scientific community traditionally remained more constrained in its language.[13] However, in a November 2019 statement published in the January 2020 issue of the scientific journal BioScience, a group of over 11,000 scientists argued that describing global warming as a climate emergency or climate crisis was appropriate.[14] The scientists stated that an "immense increase of scale in endeavor" is needed to conserve the biosphere, but noted "profoundly troubling signs" including sustained increases in livestock populations, meat production, tree cover loss, fossil fuel consumption, air transport, and CO2 emissions—concurrent with upward trends in climate impacts such as rising temperatures, global ice melt, and extreme weather,[5] which in turn can also have many indirect impacts such as large-scale migration and food insecurity. Also in November 2019, an article published in Nature concluded that evidence from climate tipping points alone suggests that "we are in a state of planetary emergency", defining emergency as a product of risk and urgency, with both factors judged to be "acute".[15] The Nature article referenced recent IPCC Special Reports (2018, 2019) suggesting individual tipping points could be exceeded with as little as 1–2 °C of global average warming (current warming is ~1 °C), with a global cascade of tipping points possible with greater warming
In the context of climate change, Pierre Mukheibir, Professor of Water Futures at the University of Technology Sydney, states that the term crisis is "a crucial or decisive point or situation that could lead to a tipping point," one involving an "unprecedented circumstance."[4] A dictionary definition states that "crisis" in this context means "a turning point or a condition of instability or danger," and implies that "action needs to be taken now or else the consequences will be disastrous."[16] Another definition differentiates the term from global warming and climate change and defines climate crisis as "the various negative effects that unmitigated climate change is causing or threatening to cause on our planet, especially where these effects have a direct impact on humanity.
The issue is that this is so vague as to be read in almost countless ways, depending on the level of one's knowledge and assumptions. For many people, phrases like "untold suffering", "a global cascade of tipping points" and "the consequences will be disastrous" already bring up the idea of an apocalypse, and not the relatively dry scientific findings or whatever it is you think makes the two terms different. We do no favors to anybody by failing to delve deeper. After all, the article already has "Concerns about crisis terminology" section, even though I suspect it's frankly meaningless to an average person, full of quotes that are easy to misinterpret. I.e.
Finally, it may be counterproductive by causing disbelief (absent immediate dramatic effects), disempowerment (in the face of a problem that seems overwhelming), and withdrawal—rather than providing practical action over the long term.
Relying on this article alone, can anyone explain what "the long term" even is? To someone who genuinely considers themselves a member of The Last Generation (and people with such inclinations are more likely to be reading an article like this then most), it means something very different to what it means in the professional literature. Likewise, people do not care about whether or not something seems overwhelming, as much as they care about whether or not it actually is overwhelming. The way the article is structured, there is no way to get a clear answer on that point. (Just consider the first page image and what sort of a message it sends.)
In all, this article is overly narrow by not recognizing that the apocalypse rhetoric is a clear outgrowth of the crisis rhetoric, and consequently, they need to be discussed in tandem - which includes apocalyptic claims and the pushback they received. Some of those were in fact published in reliable sources as well - i.e. Franzen's piece, which was published in The New Yorker, generally considered more reliable than half the sources in "Related terminology". Likewise, if Greta Thunberg talking about "ecological breakdown" (itself a rather apocalyptic term), "ecological crisis" and "ecological emergency" is considered WP:NOTABLE and worthy of inclusion in this article, is there a defensible reason not to include Roger Hallam (activist) claiming that climate change would kill 6 billion people, and the media coverage + scientific pushback it received?
Finally, if you read the scientific paper where the term climate endgame was proposed in the first place, it does very little to actually advance a new hypothesis. In fact, much of the paper is devoted to terminology - precisely the scope of this article. InformationToKnowledge ( talk) 07:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
— Since you are relatively new to Wikipedia, you would be wise to perform less ambitious projects, such as cleaning up the CApocalypse article and merging a cleaned-up CEndgame into it. Those two articles are simply beyond the scope of the present (terminology) article, and you will save a lot of everyone's time, including your own, if you don't attempt a merge here. —
RCraig09 (
talk)
09:51, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
—
WP:TOPIC summarizes the issue of article content. Since scientific consensus is that the climate crisis will NOT develop into (~alarmist) Apocalypse or Endgame scenarios, links to those articles are now kept in the /* See also */ section to avoid conflation with the widely used climate crisis. Aside: it's more productive on Talk Pages to focus concisely on Wikipedia policies rather than long essays. —
RCraig09 (
talk)
17:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
(continued from above, "Merger proposal")
In a speech about climate change from April 4th of this year, UN General Secretary António Guterres lambasted “the empty pledges that put us on track to an unlivable world” and warned that “we are on a fast track to climate disaster” (1). Although stark, Guterres’ statements were not novel. Guterres has made similar remarks on previous occasions, as have other public figures, including Sir David Attenborough, who warned in 2018 that inaction on climate change could lead to “the collapse of our civilizations” (2). In their article, “World Scientists’ Warning of a Climate Emergency 2021”—which now has more than 14,700 signatories from 158 countries—William J. Ripple and colleagues state that climate change could “cause significant disruptions to ecosystems, society, and economies, potentially making large areas of Earth uninhabitable” (3).
Because civilization cannot exist in unlivable or uninhabitable places, all of the above warnings can be understood as asserting the potential for anthropogenic climate change to cause civilization collapse (or “climate collapse”) to a greater or lesser extent. Yet despite discussing many adverse impacts, climate science literature, as synthesized for instance by assessment reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), has little at all to say about whether or under which conditions climate change might threaten civilization. Although a body of scientific research exists on historical and archeological cases of collapse (4), discussions of mechanisms whereby climate change might cause the collapse of current civilizations has mostly been the province of journalists, philosophers, novelists, and filmmakers. We believe that this should change.
What article name would summarize both sides of all 3+ items in my list? It's the threshold question defining where your new content belongs. — RCraig09 ( talk) 06:17, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
ITK: as a rule, it's best to make changes incrementally with specific edit comments, especially in your first few thousand edits on Wikipedia.(totally new articles excepted since there was nothing to "change" to begin with) Incremental changes let the community of editors see what is proposed, and respond accordingly before anyone has spent inordinate amounts of time. Subject matter expertise is very different from Wikipedia experience, and massive changes can be disruptive and can be interpreted as a violation of WP:OWN. Related: brevity is king, both in the article space and on Talk Pages. — RCraig09 ( talk) 18:49, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Just a house keeping update: in the meantime, the article Climate endgame has been merged into Climate apocalypse. Discussions about this, and further work, are available here at the WikiProject Climate Change talk page: /info/en/?search=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Climate_change#Climate_apocalypse_and_climate_endgame_articles EMsmile ( talk) 13:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)