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A perusal of the history would appear to show an unfortunate misunderstanding (at best) or perhaps even deliberate abuse (at worst) of the policy regarding revert/undo/rollback/what have you. The policy is clear: you are not to revert contributions, barring vandalism, except as a last resort. A revert should be seen as a revolting thing, to be avoided wherever possible. Prior consensus, sometimes years old and established long before recent editors came on board, does not mean permanent consensus. Every time a visitor loads an article in their browser, it is born anew and is fertile ground for editing. That you or I may not like those edits is not grounds for reverting them. It is grounds for further editing.
I don't think this is a misunderstanding in most cases; WP policy is thrown around quite freely here, which would seem to indicate that it is understood by most. Therefore, I won't insult anyone by providing links you have already bookmarked. I also don't think it is abuse in most cases, because I assume good faith. What I suspect is the most likely scenario is simple laziness; it is easier to revert than to spend several minutes pondering a newly contributed sentence or paragraph, trying to reformulate it in a way that will incorporate it while remaining factual. If new contributions are suspected to be factually wrong, every effort should be made -- by the editor who is considering a revert -- to determine the veracity of the content. In other words, just because a new editor adds a sentence but doesn't source it, you should not delete that sentence. It may be factual, but the unsophisticated editor doesn't understand the need to cite his or her facts. You, as a sophisticated editor and in keeping with the spirit of Wikipedia, should seek ways to incorporate that fresh material, rather than reasons to revert it.
That last bit is key: your instinctive goal should be inclusion, not exclusion.
If, after attempting to verify a statement, you determine that it is indeed unsupported, you should bring it up in talk, so that others (including, hopefully, the original contributor) might have a chance to verify it. If this also fails, removal is of course justified. This process seems to rarely take place in the GW article; it would appear that a large percentage of regular editors of this article could use a refresher course on reverting, in particular how and when it is to be used. Maintaining prior consensus does not apply.
Thanks for your consideration. -- Triple-Deuce 22:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
All this is largely beside the point. Most of the time the argument isn't about factual errors but the appropriatness of including stuff William M. Connolley 16:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, Tjsynkral, neverminding calls to end discussion (sounds irrational, stupid, and contrary to Wikipedia spirit), I'm not saying AMQUA holds no water; they're entitled to their opinion. What I think Triple-Deuce and I are saying is we're not reflecting their opinion on this article appropriately. For the most part, having no source is better than having a false or misrepresented source. ~ UBeR 23:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Global warming WMD of overpopulation and Population Control —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.247.54.215 ( talk • contribs).
I noticed that the article on global warming had exactly zero mentions of nuclear power. So I added one sentence stating that the United Nations has come out in favor of nuclear power as a way to combat global warming, and I cited my source. It was a legitimate source.
After I did this, someone erased it. Their only comment was "rv." I assume that comment means they are accusing me of vandalism. I was not vandalizing. My contribution was legitimate.
-- grundle2600 May 13, 2007
I'm afraid grundle2600 is mistaken; I accused him/her of no such thing, I merely deleted (by reversion) the not-well-thought-out addition of an inaccurate statement that "The United Nations has come out in favor of nuclear power as a way to combat global warming", which 1. mistakenly conflates the United Nations with the IPCC; 2. does not "come out in favor", but rather is a more nuanced position on nuclear power as one approach among many; and 3. was material that was inappropriately placed. Mention of the IPCC's position on nuclear power is certainly worth mentioning (as per KDP's comment above), but you had it in the wrong place. In future, please try not to leap to false accusations so readily. Aloha, Arjuna 09:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I think UBeR means "contentious", not "ostentatious", although I remain confused as to whom s/he thinks "doesn't fully understand WP:AGF or WP:REVERT" -- a statement which seems self-contradictory. Arjuna 09:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
You see, none of the explanations you gave warranting deleting, Arjuna808. "If you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, improve it rather than simply reverting or deleting it." Just keep that in mind next time. ~ UBeR 17:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Uber, perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote, because clearly the reasons I gave were sufficient for deleting, regardless of one's attitude towards GW. Arjuna 20:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I found some new sources - the BBC and PBS - that are more reliable. And instead of putting the information in the global warming article, I put it somewhere else. If anyone disagrees with it, let's please try to fix it, instead of erasing it. Thank you for your advice everyone. Grundle2600 23:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Arjuna - while you're so quick to point out your perceived flaws in others, you should more-fully use the edit summary next time as opposed to just typing "rv" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.156.166.51 ( talk • contribs).
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Study:_Arctic_ice_could_be_gone_by_2020 it states taht there would be no ice left in arctic by 2020.I edited the arctic article but some annoying users always reverts this and says it has no place here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic manchurian candidate 10:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
http://spacegeek.org/ep3_QT.shtml I was wondering if this video would make a good addition to external links which has no video resources. It explains GW by comparing Earth to Mars and Venus. The video is 8 min long and is very good; however, there is an ad at the end of it (for a book).
The article on global warming mentions the Kyoto Treaty several times, but there is no mention of nuclear power at all. It seems to me that this is proof of a bias against nuclear power in this article.
France stopped mining coal 3 years ago because it gets almost all of its electricity from nuclear power. Although several western European countries use wind power, when the wind isn't blowing they import their electricity from France.
Any article about global warming and the Kyoto Treaty which does not mention nuclear power simply cannot be taken seriously, because without nuclear power, it is impossible to enforce the Kyoto Treaty or solve the problem of global warming. Grundle2600 14:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Should the exact amount of temperature change at the beginning of this article have a citation? I'm not pretending to be an expert or even a scientist but I am very interested in Global Warming and I think the efforts made on this page to be methodical and exact are to be applauded. A citation for this exact amount of temperature change seems indispensable. Markisgreen 05:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
In answer to your question: From my first reading of this article, I found the second sentence of the article off-putting due to its lack of attribution and poor flow between the first few sentences. These are the opening sentences "Global warming is the increase in the average temperature of the Earth's near-surface air and oceans in recent decades and its projected continuation.
Global average air temperature near the Earth's surface rose 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.3 ± 0.32 °F) during the past century. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes, "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations,"[1] which leads to warming of the surface and lower atmosphere by increasing the greenhouse effect."
Which I would re-write as follows: "Global warming is the observable phenomenon of consistently increasing average temperatures in the air and oceans on the surface of the earth. Over the most recent decades, numerous trends have been detected through careful measurement of environmental data suggesting that this phenomenon will continue.
According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the global average air temperature near the Earth's surface rose 0.74° +/- 0.18° C (1.3° +/- 0.32° F) during the past century. The IPCC, in an assessment report for policymakers, indicates in the conclusion of their report that "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic (human-generated) greenhouse gas concentrations."[1] which lead to increased warming of air and water on the surface of the earth by exaggerating the atmosphere's greenhouse effect."
Just a minor suggestion. Nothing I'm real heated up about. I should be in bed. Markisgreen 06:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The section titled "Pre-human climate variations" uses the infamous "hockey stick" graphic showing a pronounced rise in global temperatures during recent decades. I suggest that this graphic should definitely not be used because serious flaws have been found in the methods used to create the graphic. See http://www.climatechangeissues.com/files/PDF/conf05mckitrick.pdf for information. -- 76.2.44.243 14:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Examination of the Hockey-stick so called flaws by an NRC panel : http://www.nap.edu/execsumm_pdf/11676.pdf -- Galahaad 22:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I note that Raymond arritt appears to have completely deleted two comments from this Talk page because, in his opinion, they were irrelevant. I thought that was not permitted.
He seems also to have deleted much content from his own Talk page without archiving the content. Again, is that permitted?
Please don't mis-interpret this posting as a criticism of Raymond arritt. I just want to know whether or not such deletions from Talk pages are permitted. - mbeychok 02:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I'm quite sure that irrelevant comments can be removed. WP:TALK is a guideline, by the way, and the most relevant part of the guideline is "The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page." In the spirit of that quote, I hope that someone will delete this thread, as it doesn't have anything to do with improving the Global warming article. --Akhilleus ( talk) 02:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not know what information was deleted, but I have seen relevant info deleted from Talk pages. IMHO, the best course of action is to restore the information and explain why it is relevant to improving the article. It will generally not be deleted a second time. RonCram 04:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I am more then sure that a few of the posters here have a zealous desire for proving Global Warming as being through and through fact, but there are just to many flaws right now for it to be considered as such.
With that in mind I tried to read this whole article without trying to express my own opinion but when I see right off the bat that it is stated that only a few scientists, most being un-credible, think that it is false is just outright false and more annoying then anything else. A large number of scientist (mainly prior supporters or (in some cases) some of the origional founders of the theory) have now left the alarmist camp and are now saying that Global Warming has now been greatly exagerated. It is not just a 95% majority in the scientific community that believes in Global Warming, it is closer to 60%-75%. Saying things like "a few" and "uncredited" scientists gives the impression that if you believe Global Warming is a misinterpentation of the facts then you must either be on your own or stupid, or both. To say such things is not only ignorant, but biased. -- Joshic Shin 21:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200702/CUL20070208c.html has an article talking about how many climatoligists are having their jobs threatened if they do not go with the consensus.
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=927b9303-802a-23ad-494b-dccb00b51a12&Region_id=&Issue_id= talks about several prominit scientists who were once alarmist and are now critics. A very intresting person to note in this article is Dr. Claude Allegre, one of the first to sound off on Global Warming. (The person I was refrering to earlier)
And lastly, a very long series of articles by the National Post, http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=156df7e6-d490-41c9-8b1f-106fef8763c6&k=0, talked about how Global Warming is not happening in the way it is currently describe, if at all.
Spotts, P. (May 22, 2007) "Global carbon emissions in overdrive" Christian Science Monitor
75.18.208.222 17:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not good news that global warming isn't as bad as you thought?
Quote from article:
-- BMF81 18:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Novel ways to decarbonize our economies need to be discussed because this promotes more efficient use of fossil fuels and lower amounts of all atmospheric pollutants including greenhouse gases. There are a variety of ways to finance the decarbonization process. Please see the entry "Global Premium Carbon Bonds". I would like the following statement added to the "Mitigation and Adaptation" section of the Global Warming page at the end of the discussion of emissions trading: The market for tradeable carbon economic instruments will be in the hundreds of billions within years. A novel approach to carbon financing is through Global Premium Carbon Bonds.
Jimmyookpik 00:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think its notable (yet?) William M. Connolley 17:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like the phrase below added to the Mitigation and Adaptation section of this page because there is no mention of the types of economic instruments that can be traded. Examples of such instruments should be given because if carbon emissions trading is acknowledged to be important, then what are examples of the instruments that are tradeable?
After the phrase: "One important innovation has been the development of greenhouse gas emissions trading through which companies, in conjunction with government, agree to cap their emissions or to purchase credits from those below their allowances."
There should be the phrase: " Global Premium Carbon Bonds would stimulate saving, investment and trading in long term global emissions sparing capabilities because of their broad public appeal and their powerful incentive toward extended holding periods." 66.79.240.218 19:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe shows a distorted representation of the situation.
Should there not be a graph showing the little ice age etc?
And there was a great global warming after the ancient ice ages should not that also be included?
FatherTree 14:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
(redent)Indeed, and the scientific method does not require controlled double blind studies - indeed, "double blind" studies only make sense if the subject of the research is a sentinent being (traditionally human). General relativity has not been tested in double blind studies, and neither has statistical thermodynamics or Quantum electrodynamics. -- Stephan Schulz 19:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
"Moreover, attribution is not only or even primarily based on the temperature record. We do have a reasonably good (though far from perfect) understanding of the underlying physical mechanisms that cause warming." The warming is larger than can be accounted for by the underlying mechanisms, so positive feedbacks are needed, and models are needed to "understand" them. Those models have to be better than "reasonably good" to be useful for attribution and projection. The models are being doubted "in peer review publications".-- Africangenesis 09:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
It should be noted that temperatures increased more dramitcally in the medival warm period (BEFORE cars and jets and oil derricks), and it was a time of prosperity, good crops and longer lives. Shouldn't the graph display that (New User)
Looks like the next edit war is shaping up over the "bsed on modelling results bit". I regard this as deceptive: its based on modelling, obs and theory. To describe it as only based on models seems odd William M. Connolley 11:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is the new paper I am following [3] The relevant interesting quote for solar and models is:
-- Africangenesis 12:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
What is the point of all these "TEXT" comments? johnpseudo 16:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I have added the roesch and stroeve cites, showing all the AR4 models getting the surface albedo and ice-albedo feedbacks wrong. Arritt has done a revert of properly cited material that has been discussed. He should assume good faith. He assumed these would be non-consensus, when the community has not evaluated them. If the community is intellectually honest (I am assuming good faith), they will have no problem with these additions. I am open to having them either in the intro or in the model section, but they should be with the projection numbers so they are in proper perspective.-- Africangenesis 21:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The last two sentences of the first paragraph in the "causes" section currently (2007-05-26) read: "Contrasting with the scientific consensus, other hypotheses have been proposed to explain most of the observed increase in global temperatures. Among these hypotheses are that the warming is caused by natural fluctuations in the climate or that warming is mainly a result of variations in solar radiation." This wording states two views which are not supported by primary references. First it suggests that some research views solar radiation as a primary cause of global warming. Secondly, it suggests that a belief in solar radiation as a contributing factor to warming are outside the scientific mainstream. The current reference is to a media article (secondary reference). If these views are supported in research literature, such references should be added.
There are peer-reviewed research articles which support that solar variation is a contributing factor (Solanki 2004, Stott 2007). But neither of these sources claim that solar variation is the major cause of global warming. Stott et al. say, "results from this research show that increases in solar irradiance are likely to have had a greater influence on global-mean temperatures in the first half of the twentieth century than the combined effects of changes in anthropogenic forcings. Nevertheless the results confirm previous analyses showing that greenhouse gas incresases explain most of the global warning observed in the second half of the twentieth century." Solanki et al. arrive at similar conclusions, saying "Although the rarity of the current episode of high average sunspot numbers may indicate that the Sun has contributed to the unusal climate change during the twentieth century, we point out that solar variability is unlikely to have been the dominant cause of the strong warming during the past three decades."
I made edits regaring this issue which were reverted. I won't attempt to make edits again, but I request that other editors find a satisfactory way to resolve this.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Peanutvampire ( talk • contribs)
I have just completed a section of citation formatting for readability and ease of finding the end of a citation. I know it make the differences look screwy, so I took care to do all the formmatting at once,without any other edits for a one time transition. The formatting takes advantage of two characteristics.
Therefore we can find the next ref by looking for the <space> at the beginning of a line. We can find where the text resumes by finding the /ref by itself on a line, and the very next line is the resumption of the text. The only exception is where there are two references in a row, in that case, I put the /ref and the new ref on the same line, and then also make sure to being the next line of the new ref with a space as usually. I do NOT suggest that we enforce this on editors, just that we fix it, for our own benefit when we see it. -- regards,-- Africangenesis 14:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I have added a POV tag to the article page, because without something of the kind like I propose below, undue weight is being given to the projections, by featuring them without qualification and in the introductory section of the article. I have added this after the discussions up to the date/time in my signature. -- Africangenesis 20:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The existing text
Climate models referenced by the IPCC project that global surface temperatures are likely to increase by 1.1 to 6.4 °C (2.0 to 11.5 °F) between 1990 and 2100. [1] The range of values reflects the use of differing scenarios of future greenhouse gas emissions and results of models with differences in climate sensitivity. Although most studies focus on the period up to 2100, warming and sea level rise are expected to continue for more than a millennium even if greenhouse gas levels are stabilized. [1] This reflects the large heat capacity of the ocean
The proposed text
Climate models referenced by the IPCC reflect too much solar energy into space when compared to the actual climate, due to a positive surface albedo bias, [2] and an ice-albedo feedback to global warming that is too low. [3] [4] These models project that global surface temperatures are likely to increase by 1.1 to 6.4 °C (2.0 to 11.5 °F) between 1990 and 2100. [1] The range of projections reflects the use of differing scenarios of future greenhouse gas emissions and results of models with differences in climate sensitivity. Although most studies focus on the period up to 2100, warming and sea level rise are expected to continue for more than a millennium even if greenhouse gas levels are stabilized. [1] This reflects the large heat capacity of the oceans.
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The mean annual surface albedo of the 15 AR4 models amounts to 0.140 with a standard deviation of 0.013. All AR4 models are slightly above the mean of PINKER (0.124) and ISCCP-FD (0.121)." "These substantial deviations are still far too high to meet the required accuracy of surface albedos in GCMs.
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All models participating in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Fourth Assessment Report (IPCC AR4) show declining Arctic ice cover over this period. However, depending on the time window for analysis, none or very few individual model simulations show trends comparable to observations." Co-author Scambos from press release: "Because of this disparity, the shrinking of summertime ice is about thirty years ahead of the climate model projections.
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Discussion
Note, the existing paragraph is the third paragraph of the introduction and projects a range of global surface temperatures produced only by models of different sensitivities under different greenhouse gas scenerios. The range does not reflect any of the known errors in the models. My proposed text adds some perspective, to the rather idealized POV that has been presented, based upon model diagnostic work published in the peer reviewed literature. I am for brief introductions, so I am open to the whole paragraph being moved to the model section, but it is POV to allow the projections without the perspective in near proximity. I tried having the projections as the first sentence, but chose having the perspective first as it read better, because it did not break up the flow of the later sentences. This is because the rest of the paragraph goes on as if the projections are true. I am open to an intelligible reordering that reads smoothly. I limited this to two citations, that are particularly relevant to relative attribution among the competing forcings but there are numerous other citations among the IPCC diagnostic subprojects, and earlier work.
Keep in mind that the errors found by Roesch are several times the global energy imbalance that we are trying to attribute and project with the models. See the discussion by searching the May archives [7]
The article cited for the model ice-albedo feedback problems was discussed above and is the subject of its own article [8], although it doesn't seem to be wiki-linkable. -- Africangenesis 16:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The mean annual surface albedo of the 15 AR4 models amounts to 0.140 with a standard deviation of 0.013. All AR4 models are slightly above the mean of PINKER (0.124) and ISCCP-FD (0.121)." "The annual mean surface albedo of the AR4 models is 0.140 with a standard deviation of 0.013. All climate models are slightly above the average derived from the PINKER and ISCCP climatology. The participating models all capture the large-scale seasonal cycle of the surface albedo quite well. However, pronounced systematic biases are predicted in some areas. Highest differences between the models are found over snow-covered forested regions. The winter surface albedo of CNRM-CM3, averaged over the latitude zone from 50N-70N, is nearly 0.3 lower than in MIROC3.2 and INM-CM3.0. Comparisons with ground-based and remote-sensed data reveal that most AR4 models predict positive biases over primarily forested areas during the snow period. These substantial deviations are still far too high to meet the required accuracy of surface albedos in GCMs.
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help)Opposed, this is OR without some connection (via good sources) of the errors to the projections. All models have errors, this is no surprise; there is no reason to pick out this error William M. Connolley 14:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
If reason, based on our best ability to analyze facts and knowledge, counts for so little, that it can be easily brushed aside, by a preconcieved, ideologically driven opinion, that is then persued without any regard for what the facts might otherwise dictate, then the problem is not simply to get a new president, or to elect a different individual or different people, the problem is the news media, with the politicians, with us, we the people, ..., the fact that evidence and facts, themselves are just so easily shunted aside, that is the real underlying problem. And so, we will fix our democracy when we restore the integrity of the way we communicate with one another about the choices we have to make as American citizens, that's the underlying problem, there is crack in the foundation of our democracy, and it has to be fixed by the restoration of respect for reason, fact, knowledge and truth.
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help)Regarding the holocene maximum (which occured approximately 6000 years ago); how come there is no mention of this in the current article? It seems like a very significant piece of information in relation to global warming, and there already exist other graphs in the article which deal with time periods before the holocene maximum. Perhaps some mention of this, plus this image may improve the article? -- Rebroad 15:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Raymond & Leland. Thanks for your quick replies. I understood that the "Great Global Warming Swindle" graph is using IPCC data. Is this correct? Is this data not reliable? If not, why not? Thanks, -- Rebroad 16:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, simple and quick question. Which follows which? Temperature lags behind CO2 levels, or CO2 lags behind temperature levels? Many thanks!! -- Rebroad 16:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Under the right conditions, both statements are TRUE. Notice that the statement
is the definition of "positive feedback". The fact that the planet did NOT overheat 100 years ago is proof that either
or that
or that
Deciding which statement is correct IS the "Global Warming" argument.
It is relatively easy to produce a lab experiment where adding some CO2 increases temperature. But, at some point, adding more has no effect. It is not clear how to apply these results. With respect to the real world, the Ice Core data is pretty clear - temperature changes either lead CO2 changes, or they are not correlated. However, note that "cause and effect" ... either way ... is an unproven theory (at current temperatures and pressures). Correlation must never be used to suggest "cause". Q Science 18:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to add a section under the Model subheading which describes the serious inconsistency that's been pointed out in Temp Trends in the Lower Atmosphere. The gist is 'all models project tropical amplification' which is consistent with the Greenhouse Effect Theory, but no observations show tropical amplification.[ [10]]....unless someone else would rather take a stab. 65.12.145.148 02:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It belongs here too. Under Climate Model, the discussion of the limitation of climate models. 65.12.145.148 03:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 20 | ← | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | → | Archive 30 |
A perusal of the history would appear to show an unfortunate misunderstanding (at best) or perhaps even deliberate abuse (at worst) of the policy regarding revert/undo/rollback/what have you. The policy is clear: you are not to revert contributions, barring vandalism, except as a last resort. A revert should be seen as a revolting thing, to be avoided wherever possible. Prior consensus, sometimes years old and established long before recent editors came on board, does not mean permanent consensus. Every time a visitor loads an article in their browser, it is born anew and is fertile ground for editing. That you or I may not like those edits is not grounds for reverting them. It is grounds for further editing.
I don't think this is a misunderstanding in most cases; WP policy is thrown around quite freely here, which would seem to indicate that it is understood by most. Therefore, I won't insult anyone by providing links you have already bookmarked. I also don't think it is abuse in most cases, because I assume good faith. What I suspect is the most likely scenario is simple laziness; it is easier to revert than to spend several minutes pondering a newly contributed sentence or paragraph, trying to reformulate it in a way that will incorporate it while remaining factual. If new contributions are suspected to be factually wrong, every effort should be made -- by the editor who is considering a revert -- to determine the veracity of the content. In other words, just because a new editor adds a sentence but doesn't source it, you should not delete that sentence. It may be factual, but the unsophisticated editor doesn't understand the need to cite his or her facts. You, as a sophisticated editor and in keeping with the spirit of Wikipedia, should seek ways to incorporate that fresh material, rather than reasons to revert it.
That last bit is key: your instinctive goal should be inclusion, not exclusion.
If, after attempting to verify a statement, you determine that it is indeed unsupported, you should bring it up in talk, so that others (including, hopefully, the original contributor) might have a chance to verify it. If this also fails, removal is of course justified. This process seems to rarely take place in the GW article; it would appear that a large percentage of regular editors of this article could use a refresher course on reverting, in particular how and when it is to be used. Maintaining prior consensus does not apply.
Thanks for your consideration. -- Triple-Deuce 22:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
All this is largely beside the point. Most of the time the argument isn't about factual errors but the appropriatness of including stuff William M. Connolley 16:05, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, Tjsynkral, neverminding calls to end discussion (sounds irrational, stupid, and contrary to Wikipedia spirit), I'm not saying AMQUA holds no water; they're entitled to their opinion. What I think Triple-Deuce and I are saying is we're not reflecting their opinion on this article appropriately. For the most part, having no source is better than having a false or misrepresented source. ~ UBeR 23:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Global warming WMD of overpopulation and Population Control —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.247.54.215 ( talk • contribs).
I noticed that the article on global warming had exactly zero mentions of nuclear power. So I added one sentence stating that the United Nations has come out in favor of nuclear power as a way to combat global warming, and I cited my source. It was a legitimate source.
After I did this, someone erased it. Their only comment was "rv." I assume that comment means they are accusing me of vandalism. I was not vandalizing. My contribution was legitimate.
-- grundle2600 May 13, 2007
I'm afraid grundle2600 is mistaken; I accused him/her of no such thing, I merely deleted (by reversion) the not-well-thought-out addition of an inaccurate statement that "The United Nations has come out in favor of nuclear power as a way to combat global warming", which 1. mistakenly conflates the United Nations with the IPCC; 2. does not "come out in favor", but rather is a more nuanced position on nuclear power as one approach among many; and 3. was material that was inappropriately placed. Mention of the IPCC's position on nuclear power is certainly worth mentioning (as per KDP's comment above), but you had it in the wrong place. In future, please try not to leap to false accusations so readily. Aloha, Arjuna 09:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I think UBeR means "contentious", not "ostentatious", although I remain confused as to whom s/he thinks "doesn't fully understand WP:AGF or WP:REVERT" -- a statement which seems self-contradictory. Arjuna 09:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
You see, none of the explanations you gave warranting deleting, Arjuna808. "If you feel the edit is unsatisfactory, improve it rather than simply reverting or deleting it." Just keep that in mind next time. ~ UBeR 17:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Uber, perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote, because clearly the reasons I gave were sufficient for deleting, regardless of one's attitude towards GW. Arjuna 20:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I found some new sources - the BBC and PBS - that are more reliable. And instead of putting the information in the global warming article, I put it somewhere else. If anyone disagrees with it, let's please try to fix it, instead of erasing it. Thank you for your advice everyone. Grundle2600 23:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Arjuna - while you're so quick to point out your perceived flaws in others, you should more-fully use the edit summary next time as opposed to just typing "rv" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.156.166.51 ( talk • contribs).
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Study:_Arctic_ice_could_be_gone_by_2020 it states taht there would be no ice left in arctic by 2020.I edited the arctic article but some annoying users always reverts this and says it has no place here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic manchurian candidate 10:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
http://spacegeek.org/ep3_QT.shtml I was wondering if this video would make a good addition to external links which has no video resources. It explains GW by comparing Earth to Mars and Venus. The video is 8 min long and is very good; however, there is an ad at the end of it (for a book).
The article on global warming mentions the Kyoto Treaty several times, but there is no mention of nuclear power at all. It seems to me that this is proof of a bias against nuclear power in this article.
France stopped mining coal 3 years ago because it gets almost all of its electricity from nuclear power. Although several western European countries use wind power, when the wind isn't blowing they import their electricity from France.
Any article about global warming and the Kyoto Treaty which does not mention nuclear power simply cannot be taken seriously, because without nuclear power, it is impossible to enforce the Kyoto Treaty or solve the problem of global warming. Grundle2600 14:59, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Should the exact amount of temperature change at the beginning of this article have a citation? I'm not pretending to be an expert or even a scientist but I am very interested in Global Warming and I think the efforts made on this page to be methodical and exact are to be applauded. A citation for this exact amount of temperature change seems indispensable. Markisgreen 05:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
In answer to your question: From my first reading of this article, I found the second sentence of the article off-putting due to its lack of attribution and poor flow between the first few sentences. These are the opening sentences "Global warming is the increase in the average temperature of the Earth's near-surface air and oceans in recent decades and its projected continuation.
Global average air temperature near the Earth's surface rose 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.3 ± 0.32 °F) during the past century. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes, "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations,"[1] which leads to warming of the surface and lower atmosphere by increasing the greenhouse effect."
Which I would re-write as follows: "Global warming is the observable phenomenon of consistently increasing average temperatures in the air and oceans on the surface of the earth. Over the most recent decades, numerous trends have been detected through careful measurement of environmental data suggesting that this phenomenon will continue.
According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the global average air temperature near the Earth's surface rose 0.74° +/- 0.18° C (1.3° +/- 0.32° F) during the past century. The IPCC, in an assessment report for policymakers, indicates in the conclusion of their report that "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic (human-generated) greenhouse gas concentrations."[1] which lead to increased warming of air and water on the surface of the earth by exaggerating the atmosphere's greenhouse effect."
Just a minor suggestion. Nothing I'm real heated up about. I should be in bed. Markisgreen 06:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
The section titled "Pre-human climate variations" uses the infamous "hockey stick" graphic showing a pronounced rise in global temperatures during recent decades. I suggest that this graphic should definitely not be used because serious flaws have been found in the methods used to create the graphic. See http://www.climatechangeissues.com/files/PDF/conf05mckitrick.pdf for information. -- 76.2.44.243 14:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Examination of the Hockey-stick so called flaws by an NRC panel : http://www.nap.edu/execsumm_pdf/11676.pdf -- Galahaad 22:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I note that Raymond arritt appears to have completely deleted two comments from this Talk page because, in his opinion, they were irrelevant. I thought that was not permitted.
He seems also to have deleted much content from his own Talk page without archiving the content. Again, is that permitted?
Please don't mis-interpret this posting as a criticism of Raymond arritt. I just want to know whether or not such deletions from Talk pages are permitted. - mbeychok 02:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I'm quite sure that irrelevant comments can be removed. WP:TALK is a guideline, by the way, and the most relevant part of the guideline is "The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page." In the spirit of that quote, I hope that someone will delete this thread, as it doesn't have anything to do with improving the Global warming article. --Akhilleus ( talk) 02:31, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not know what information was deleted, but I have seen relevant info deleted from Talk pages. IMHO, the best course of action is to restore the information and explain why it is relevant to improving the article. It will generally not be deleted a second time. RonCram 04:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
I am more then sure that a few of the posters here have a zealous desire for proving Global Warming as being through and through fact, but there are just to many flaws right now for it to be considered as such.
With that in mind I tried to read this whole article without trying to express my own opinion but when I see right off the bat that it is stated that only a few scientists, most being un-credible, think that it is false is just outright false and more annoying then anything else. A large number of scientist (mainly prior supporters or (in some cases) some of the origional founders of the theory) have now left the alarmist camp and are now saying that Global Warming has now been greatly exagerated. It is not just a 95% majority in the scientific community that believes in Global Warming, it is closer to 60%-75%. Saying things like "a few" and "uncredited" scientists gives the impression that if you believe Global Warming is a misinterpentation of the facts then you must either be on your own or stupid, or both. To say such things is not only ignorant, but biased. -- Joshic Shin 21:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200702/CUL20070208c.html has an article talking about how many climatoligists are having their jobs threatened if they do not go with the consensus.
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=927b9303-802a-23ad-494b-dccb00b51a12&Region_id=&Issue_id= talks about several prominit scientists who were once alarmist and are now critics. A very intresting person to note in this article is Dr. Claude Allegre, one of the first to sound off on Global Warming. (The person I was refrering to earlier)
And lastly, a very long series of articles by the National Post, http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=156df7e6-d490-41c9-8b1f-106fef8763c6&k=0, talked about how Global Warming is not happening in the way it is currently describe, if at all.
Spotts, P. (May 22, 2007) "Global carbon emissions in overdrive" Christian Science Monitor
75.18.208.222 17:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
It's not good news that global warming isn't as bad as you thought?
Quote from article:
-- BMF81 18:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Novel ways to decarbonize our economies need to be discussed because this promotes more efficient use of fossil fuels and lower amounts of all atmospheric pollutants including greenhouse gases. There are a variety of ways to finance the decarbonization process. Please see the entry "Global Premium Carbon Bonds". I would like the following statement added to the "Mitigation and Adaptation" section of the Global Warming page at the end of the discussion of emissions trading: The market for tradeable carbon economic instruments will be in the hundreds of billions within years. A novel approach to carbon financing is through Global Premium Carbon Bonds.
Jimmyookpik 00:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think its notable (yet?) William M. Connolley 17:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I would like the phrase below added to the Mitigation and Adaptation section of this page because there is no mention of the types of economic instruments that can be traded. Examples of such instruments should be given because if carbon emissions trading is acknowledged to be important, then what are examples of the instruments that are tradeable?
After the phrase: "One important innovation has been the development of greenhouse gas emissions trading through which companies, in conjunction with government, agree to cap their emissions or to purchase credits from those below their allowances."
There should be the phrase: " Global Premium Carbon Bonds would stimulate saving, investment and trading in long term global emissions sparing capabilities because of their broad public appeal and their powerful incentive toward extended holding periods." 66.79.240.218 19:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe shows a distorted representation of the situation.
Should there not be a graph showing the little ice age etc?
And there was a great global warming after the ancient ice ages should not that also be included?
FatherTree 14:00, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
(redent)Indeed, and the scientific method does not require controlled double blind studies - indeed, "double blind" studies only make sense if the subject of the research is a sentinent being (traditionally human). General relativity has not been tested in double blind studies, and neither has statistical thermodynamics or Quantum electrodynamics. -- Stephan Schulz 19:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
"Moreover, attribution is not only or even primarily based on the temperature record. We do have a reasonably good (though far from perfect) understanding of the underlying physical mechanisms that cause warming." The warming is larger than can be accounted for by the underlying mechanisms, so positive feedbacks are needed, and models are needed to "understand" them. Those models have to be better than "reasonably good" to be useful for attribution and projection. The models are being doubted "in peer review publications".-- Africangenesis 09:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
It should be noted that temperatures increased more dramitcally in the medival warm period (BEFORE cars and jets and oil derricks), and it was a time of prosperity, good crops and longer lives. Shouldn't the graph display that (New User)
Looks like the next edit war is shaping up over the "bsed on modelling results bit". I regard this as deceptive: its based on modelling, obs and theory. To describe it as only based on models seems odd William M. Connolley 11:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Here is the new paper I am following [3] The relevant interesting quote for solar and models is:
-- Africangenesis 12:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
What is the point of all these "TEXT" comments? johnpseudo 16:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I have added the roesch and stroeve cites, showing all the AR4 models getting the surface albedo and ice-albedo feedbacks wrong. Arritt has done a revert of properly cited material that has been discussed. He should assume good faith. He assumed these would be non-consensus, when the community has not evaluated them. If the community is intellectually honest (I am assuming good faith), they will have no problem with these additions. I am open to having them either in the intro or in the model section, but they should be with the projection numbers so they are in proper perspective.-- Africangenesis 21:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
The last two sentences of the first paragraph in the "causes" section currently (2007-05-26) read: "Contrasting with the scientific consensus, other hypotheses have been proposed to explain most of the observed increase in global temperatures. Among these hypotheses are that the warming is caused by natural fluctuations in the climate or that warming is mainly a result of variations in solar radiation." This wording states two views which are not supported by primary references. First it suggests that some research views solar radiation as a primary cause of global warming. Secondly, it suggests that a belief in solar radiation as a contributing factor to warming are outside the scientific mainstream. The current reference is to a media article (secondary reference). If these views are supported in research literature, such references should be added.
There are peer-reviewed research articles which support that solar variation is a contributing factor (Solanki 2004, Stott 2007). But neither of these sources claim that solar variation is the major cause of global warming. Stott et al. say, "results from this research show that increases in solar irradiance are likely to have had a greater influence on global-mean temperatures in the first half of the twentieth century than the combined effects of changes in anthropogenic forcings. Nevertheless the results confirm previous analyses showing that greenhouse gas incresases explain most of the global warning observed in the second half of the twentieth century." Solanki et al. arrive at similar conclusions, saying "Although the rarity of the current episode of high average sunspot numbers may indicate that the Sun has contributed to the unusal climate change during the twentieth century, we point out that solar variability is unlikely to have been the dominant cause of the strong warming during the past three decades."
I made edits regaring this issue which were reverted. I won't attempt to make edits again, but I request that other editors find a satisfactory way to resolve this.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Peanutvampire ( talk • contribs)
I have just completed a section of citation formatting for readability and ease of finding the end of a citation. I know it make the differences look screwy, so I took care to do all the formmatting at once,without any other edits for a one time transition. The formatting takes advantage of two characteristics.
Therefore we can find the next ref by looking for the <space> at the beginning of a line. We can find where the text resumes by finding the /ref by itself on a line, and the very next line is the resumption of the text. The only exception is where there are two references in a row, in that case, I put the /ref and the new ref on the same line, and then also make sure to being the next line of the new ref with a space as usually. I do NOT suggest that we enforce this on editors, just that we fix it, for our own benefit when we see it. -- regards,-- Africangenesis 14:42, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I have added a POV tag to the article page, because without something of the kind like I propose below, undue weight is being given to the projections, by featuring them without qualification and in the introductory section of the article. I have added this after the discussions up to the date/time in my signature. -- Africangenesis 20:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The existing text
Climate models referenced by the IPCC project that global surface temperatures are likely to increase by 1.1 to 6.4 °C (2.0 to 11.5 °F) between 1990 and 2100. [1] The range of values reflects the use of differing scenarios of future greenhouse gas emissions and results of models with differences in climate sensitivity. Although most studies focus on the period up to 2100, warming and sea level rise are expected to continue for more than a millennium even if greenhouse gas levels are stabilized. [1] This reflects the large heat capacity of the ocean
The proposed text
Climate models referenced by the IPCC reflect too much solar energy into space when compared to the actual climate, due to a positive surface albedo bias, [2] and an ice-albedo feedback to global warming that is too low. [3] [4] These models project that global surface temperatures are likely to increase by 1.1 to 6.4 °C (2.0 to 11.5 °F) between 1990 and 2100. [1] The range of projections reflects the use of differing scenarios of future greenhouse gas emissions and results of models with differences in climate sensitivity. Although most studies focus on the period up to 2100, warming and sea level rise are expected to continue for more than a millennium even if greenhouse gas levels are stabilized. [1] This reflects the large heat capacity of the oceans.
References
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The mean annual surface albedo of the 15 AR4 models amounts to 0.140 with a standard deviation of 0.013. All AR4 models are slightly above the mean of PINKER (0.124) and ISCCP-FD (0.121)." "These substantial deviations are still far too high to meet the required accuracy of surface albedos in GCMs.
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All models participating in the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Fourth Assessment Report (IPCC AR4) show declining Arctic ice cover over this period. However, depending on the time window for analysis, none or very few individual model simulations show trends comparable to observations." Co-author Scambos from press release: "Because of this disparity, the shrinking of summertime ice is about thirty years ahead of the climate model projections.
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Discussion
Note, the existing paragraph is the third paragraph of the introduction and projects a range of global surface temperatures produced only by models of different sensitivities under different greenhouse gas scenerios. The range does not reflect any of the known errors in the models. My proposed text adds some perspective, to the rather idealized POV that has been presented, based upon model diagnostic work published in the peer reviewed literature. I am for brief introductions, so I am open to the whole paragraph being moved to the model section, but it is POV to allow the projections without the perspective in near proximity. I tried having the projections as the first sentence, but chose having the perspective first as it read better, because it did not break up the flow of the later sentences. This is because the rest of the paragraph goes on as if the projections are true. I am open to an intelligible reordering that reads smoothly. I limited this to two citations, that are particularly relevant to relative attribution among the competing forcings but there are numerous other citations among the IPCC diagnostic subprojects, and earlier work.
Keep in mind that the errors found by Roesch are several times the global energy imbalance that we are trying to attribute and project with the models. See the discussion by searching the May archives [7]
The article cited for the model ice-albedo feedback problems was discussed above and is the subject of its own article [8], although it doesn't seem to be wiki-linkable. -- Africangenesis 16:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The mean annual surface albedo of the 15 AR4 models amounts to 0.140 with a standard deviation of 0.013. All AR4 models are slightly above the mean of PINKER (0.124) and ISCCP-FD (0.121)." "The annual mean surface albedo of the AR4 models is 0.140 with a standard deviation of 0.013. All climate models are slightly above the average derived from the PINKER and ISCCP climatology. The participating models all capture the large-scale seasonal cycle of the surface albedo quite well. However, pronounced systematic biases are predicted in some areas. Highest differences between the models are found over snow-covered forested regions. The winter surface albedo of CNRM-CM3, averaged over the latitude zone from 50N-70N, is nearly 0.3 lower than in MIROC3.2 and INM-CM3.0. Comparisons with ground-based and remote-sensed data reveal that most AR4 models predict positive biases over primarily forested areas during the snow period. These substantial deviations are still far too high to meet the required accuracy of surface albedos in GCMs.
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help)Opposed, this is OR without some connection (via good sources) of the errors to the projections. All models have errors, this is no surprise; there is no reason to pick out this error William M. Connolley 14:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
If reason, based on our best ability to analyze facts and knowledge, counts for so little, that it can be easily brushed aside, by a preconcieved, ideologically driven opinion, that is then persued without any regard for what the facts might otherwise dictate, then the problem is not simply to get a new president, or to elect a different individual or different people, the problem is the news media, with the politicians, with us, we the people, ..., the fact that evidence and facts, themselves are just so easily shunted aside, that is the real underlying problem. And so, we will fix our democracy when we restore the integrity of the way we communicate with one another about the choices we have to make as American citizens, that's the underlying problem, there is crack in the foundation of our democracy, and it has to be fixed by the restoration of respect for reason, fact, knowledge and truth.
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help)Regarding the holocene maximum (which occured approximately 6000 years ago); how come there is no mention of this in the current article? It seems like a very significant piece of information in relation to global warming, and there already exist other graphs in the article which deal with time periods before the holocene maximum. Perhaps some mention of this, plus this image may improve the article? -- Rebroad 15:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Raymond & Leland. Thanks for your quick replies. I understood that the "Great Global Warming Swindle" graph is using IPCC data. Is this correct? Is this data not reliable? If not, why not? Thanks, -- Rebroad 16:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Ok, simple and quick question. Which follows which? Temperature lags behind CO2 levels, or CO2 lags behind temperature levels? Many thanks!! -- Rebroad 16:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Under the right conditions, both statements are TRUE. Notice that the statement
is the definition of "positive feedback". The fact that the planet did NOT overheat 100 years ago is proof that either
or that
or that
Deciding which statement is correct IS the "Global Warming" argument.
It is relatively easy to produce a lab experiment where adding some CO2 increases temperature. But, at some point, adding more has no effect. It is not clear how to apply these results. With respect to the real world, the Ice Core data is pretty clear - temperature changes either lead CO2 changes, or they are not correlated. However, note that "cause and effect" ... either way ... is an unproven theory (at current temperatures and pressures). Correlation must never be used to suggest "cause". Q Science 18:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to add a section under the Model subheading which describes the serious inconsistency that's been pointed out in Temp Trends in the Lower Atmosphere. The gist is 'all models project tropical amplification' which is consistent with the Greenhouse Effect Theory, but no observations show tropical amplification.[ [10]]....unless someone else would rather take a stab. 65.12.145.148 02:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It belongs here too. Under Climate Model, the discussion of the limitation of climate models. 65.12.145.148 03:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)