This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The title of this page seems stilted and unnatural. I'd like to think of a better one but I can't. UninvitedCompany 17:40, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I've heard "Eighteenth Century Classicism" a lot. Just throwing it out there. -DVM
Considering that all of the other periods are labeled: PeriodName_music, I think that's the best solution. So, we should call it Classical_music. It's simple, effective, and in the opening paragraph you can explain that it's a period of music as well as a blanket term. --5:52pm PST, 2008.07.18
The blanket term "Classical music" encompasses Baroque, Romantic, and Modern classical music as well. There already is a link at the top of the Classical music page leading to Classical period music, although I do agree that this page should be named Classical_music to consistently match the Baroque and Romantic music pages. Perhaps the "Classical music" page could be renamed to "Classical music (blanket term)"? Musicguyguy ( talk) 20:38, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Switched is incorrect, it implies a sharp break. Haydn's innovation is the effect where it is not clear when the moment of transition occurs. Stirling Newberry 17:09, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)//
It's an innovation or it isn't. Stirling Newberry 17:09, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Stirling, I have been concerned to preserve what is good in this article without adding much content of my own. I have therefore edited with a view to clarity, style, correctness of spelling and orthodoxy of punctuation and the like, and set aside my own expertise in the content area. I pass over certain alterations that you have made, not because I think them unexceptionable, but because life is too short. I do comment on these matters, however:
1. More than once I have put "led" in place of your "lead", as the past tense. Please do not restore "lead", since it is plain wrong English.
2. I replaced your comma with a semicolon because a comma is not apt between independent clauses (unless there is also a conjunction). Please leave the semicolon alone.
3. You comment: "it's an innovation or it isn't". Wrong. The very point being made is that though the individual features may appear to be innovations in the work, they are not. Rather, what is striking is the work's collocation of "every part of the Classical style". That's why "seeming innovations" is apt. Would you strike out "alleged" from "alleged thief", because everyone is either a thief or not?
4. You have: "During this decade Mozart would compose his most famous operas, his six late symphonies which would help redefine the genre, and a string of piano concerti which still stand at the pinnacle of these forms." I say that, because of the inelegant wording at the end, it is unclear whether you mean that the piano concerti still stand, or that the operas, symphonies, and the piano concerti still stand. Just possibly a minute weighing of contextual considerations could settle for matter for a reader; but why not say directly what is meant? That's why I put, as a rough approximation to what might be best: "Many in each of these categories are still acknowledged as among the finest of their kind." If you want the text to mean something other than this, alter it! So long as the meaning is unambiguous. The mere fact that one discerning reader cannot work out what you mean shows that restoring the original is not enough.
5. Do you understand my point about the difference between "unclear" and "indeterminate"? If you like I will explain. It would be best if you understood before restoring "unclear". The same applies to my proposed omission of "momentary".
6. I think I understand why you want "segue"; but I still think "switch" is more idiomatic in the context, and that the meaning is easier to grasp if it is used instead of "segue". I leave the point to be examined by any interested others. -- Noetica 22:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Stirling Newberry 22:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Stirling, I have more edifying things to do, so I'll move on. Others may judge the matters here amply laid out before them. But I would suggest that you restore the semicolon, if, as you claim, you reverted to the comma simply by carelessness. And the same for your incorrect past tense "lead", which should be restored to my correct "led". -- Noetica 23:18, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well you certainly need edification, so I will happily let you move on. Stirling Newberry 04:27, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why is this on there at all thats not the classical period. -Dan
Not much of a reason, but classical music era just doesn't ring right in my ears. Maybe because music, a noun, is being used to describe era, which is the proper function of an adjective. It's not a big deal, really, since it's clear and descriptive, and I can't think of anything better -- classical musical era is bad, classical era in music worse. I'm fine with the title until something better comes along though. Tuf-Kat 01:51, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
I've put Haydn into the Big Three, partly because it's my impression that this is the common view, and partly based on a quick Google search:
Joseph Haydn 2,510,000
Josef Haydn 1,190,000
Ludwig van Beethoven 2,020,000
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart 1,850,000
Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach 250,000
Muzio Clementi 109,000
Johann Ladislaus Dussek 9,420
Mozart 17,000,000
Beethoven 13,600,000
Haydn 4,350,000
Charles Rosen's book The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, which is probably the most cited general work in this area, might also be taken as support for including Haydn.
Opus33 15:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)----
Czerny was Liszt's teacher, not Hummel. Liszt's father Adam found Hummel's fees way too exhorbitant compared to Czerny's. It is also regrettable that not much is being mentioned about Dussek in this article, who was one of the true creative spirits and neglected geniuses besides Hummel that led directly and provided the 'missing link' from Mozart to Chopin, Liszt or even Schumann - DT. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.186.9.2 ( talk • contribs) .
(side note) It states that Beethoven studied in his youth under Mozart, but this is unverified, and is still greatly speculated. ( User:Comp-soer8) —Preceding comment was added at 18:55, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
How come this artical has so little on the actual instruments of this time period... someone should add information like that... Is it Steak?<Xiaden's Homepage> 17:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
If anybody has an important event post it here. I am writing a paper on it.
Back then, in the past, in this era? What did they call the music, genre-wise? Instant classical music? Predictably classical music? Presumptively classical music? VolatileChemical 12:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Well, I'm guessing they called it "modern music" back then... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.64.243 ( talk) 11:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I am a GCSE Music student, and in the syllabus these are treated as different musical eras (c. 1750-1800 and 1800-1830 respectively). However, no difference is shown between these in the 'main characteristics' section. Although I consider Orchestral Landmarks one of my weaker ares of study, I am still aware that there are a number of differences between the two, so perhaps this could be rectified by someone who knows more about it than I? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.69.110 ( talk) 15:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I am horribly surprised by the fact that this article still (being 5 years old) contains no inline citations, and very few books on the reading list. This situation needs to be rectified immeadiately. There are an enormous number of authoritative texts that discuss this period, by both modern authors and contemporary authors. I'll do what I can to make a start. -- Jubilee♫ clipman 20:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
The title of this page seems stilted and unnatural. I'd like to think of a better one but I can't. UninvitedCompany 17:40, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I've heard "Eighteenth Century Classicism" a lot. Just throwing it out there. -DVM
Considering that all of the other periods are labeled: PeriodName_music, I think that's the best solution. So, we should call it Classical_music. It's simple, effective, and in the opening paragraph you can explain that it's a period of music as well as a blanket term. --5:52pm PST, 2008.07.18
The blanket term "Classical music" encompasses Baroque, Romantic, and Modern classical music as well. There already is a link at the top of the Classical music page leading to Classical period music, although I do agree that this page should be named Classical_music to consistently match the Baroque and Romantic music pages. Perhaps the "Classical music" page could be renamed to "Classical music (blanket term)"? Musicguyguy ( talk) 20:38, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Switched is incorrect, it implies a sharp break. Haydn's innovation is the effect where it is not clear when the moment of transition occurs. Stirling Newberry 17:09, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)//
It's an innovation or it isn't. Stirling Newberry 17:09, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Stirling, I have been concerned to preserve what is good in this article without adding much content of my own. I have therefore edited with a view to clarity, style, correctness of spelling and orthodoxy of punctuation and the like, and set aside my own expertise in the content area. I pass over certain alterations that you have made, not because I think them unexceptionable, but because life is too short. I do comment on these matters, however:
1. More than once I have put "led" in place of your "lead", as the past tense. Please do not restore "lead", since it is plain wrong English.
2. I replaced your comma with a semicolon because a comma is not apt between independent clauses (unless there is also a conjunction). Please leave the semicolon alone.
3. You comment: "it's an innovation or it isn't". Wrong. The very point being made is that though the individual features may appear to be innovations in the work, they are not. Rather, what is striking is the work's collocation of "every part of the Classical style". That's why "seeming innovations" is apt. Would you strike out "alleged" from "alleged thief", because everyone is either a thief or not?
4. You have: "During this decade Mozart would compose his most famous operas, his six late symphonies which would help redefine the genre, and a string of piano concerti which still stand at the pinnacle of these forms." I say that, because of the inelegant wording at the end, it is unclear whether you mean that the piano concerti still stand, or that the operas, symphonies, and the piano concerti still stand. Just possibly a minute weighing of contextual considerations could settle for matter for a reader; but why not say directly what is meant? That's why I put, as a rough approximation to what might be best: "Many in each of these categories are still acknowledged as among the finest of their kind." If you want the text to mean something other than this, alter it! So long as the meaning is unambiguous. The mere fact that one discerning reader cannot work out what you mean shows that restoring the original is not enough.
5. Do you understand my point about the difference between "unclear" and "indeterminate"? If you like I will explain. It would be best if you understood before restoring "unclear". The same applies to my proposed omission of "momentary".
6. I think I understand why you want "segue"; but I still think "switch" is more idiomatic in the context, and that the meaning is easier to grasp if it is used instead of "segue". I leave the point to be examined by any interested others. -- Noetica 22:08, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Stirling Newberry 22:54, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Stirling, I have more edifying things to do, so I'll move on. Others may judge the matters here amply laid out before them. But I would suggest that you restore the semicolon, if, as you claim, you reverted to the comma simply by carelessness. And the same for your incorrect past tense "lead", which should be restored to my correct "led". -- Noetica 23:18, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well you certainly need edification, so I will happily let you move on. Stirling Newberry 04:27, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Why is this on there at all thats not the classical period. -Dan
Not much of a reason, but classical music era just doesn't ring right in my ears. Maybe because music, a noun, is being used to describe era, which is the proper function of an adjective. It's not a big deal, really, since it's clear and descriptive, and I can't think of anything better -- classical musical era is bad, classical era in music worse. I'm fine with the title until something better comes along though. Tuf-Kat 01:51, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)
I've put Haydn into the Big Three, partly because it's my impression that this is the common view, and partly based on a quick Google search:
Joseph Haydn 2,510,000
Josef Haydn 1,190,000
Ludwig van Beethoven 2,020,000
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart 1,850,000
Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach 250,000
Muzio Clementi 109,000
Johann Ladislaus Dussek 9,420
Mozart 17,000,000
Beethoven 13,600,000
Haydn 4,350,000
Charles Rosen's book The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, which is probably the most cited general work in this area, might also be taken as support for including Haydn.
Opus33 15:34, 16 October 2005 (UTC)----
Czerny was Liszt's teacher, not Hummel. Liszt's father Adam found Hummel's fees way too exhorbitant compared to Czerny's. It is also regrettable that not much is being mentioned about Dussek in this article, who was one of the true creative spirits and neglected geniuses besides Hummel that led directly and provided the 'missing link' from Mozart to Chopin, Liszt or even Schumann - DT. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.186.9.2 ( talk • contribs) .
(side note) It states that Beethoven studied in his youth under Mozart, but this is unverified, and is still greatly speculated. ( User:Comp-soer8) —Preceding comment was added at 18:55, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
How come this artical has so little on the actual instruments of this time period... someone should add information like that... Is it Steak?<Xiaden's Homepage> 17:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
If anybody has an important event post it here. I am writing a paper on it.
Back then, in the past, in this era? What did they call the music, genre-wise? Instant classical music? Predictably classical music? Presumptively classical music? VolatileChemical 12:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Well, I'm guessing they called it "modern music" back then... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.134.64.243 ( talk) 11:34, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I am a GCSE Music student, and in the syllabus these are treated as different musical eras (c. 1750-1800 and 1800-1830 respectively). However, no difference is shown between these in the 'main characteristics' section. Although I consider Orchestral Landmarks one of my weaker ares of study, I am still aware that there are a number of differences between the two, so perhaps this could be rectified by someone who knows more about it than I? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.168.69.110 ( talk) 15:49, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I am horribly surprised by the fact that this article still (being 5 years old) contains no inline citations, and very few books on the reading list. This situation needs to be rectified immeadiately. There are an enormous number of authoritative texts that discuss this period, by both modern authors and contemporary authors. I'll do what I can to make a start. -- Jubilee♫ clipman 20:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)