Move to talk for elaboration. I don't see how this thesis applies to the Taiwan straits. Arguing that Taiwan is Chinese, doesn't explain the situation, nor does arguing that Taiwan is Western explain things like the fact that the United States has limited support for Chen Shuibian.
I signed your comment above.
I'm guessing that what the author of the above passage was trying to get at was that the Taiwan Straits conflict is one between the PRC (a Sinic civilization) and the United States (a Western civilization). -- Lowellian 18:55, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
That's one interpretation, but it's one that hardly vindicates Huntington's thesis. Huntington's thesis would not account for the fact that the US has at times tilted (however slightly) toward Beijing in the last year.
Roadrunner 19:41, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
This needs to be attributed. Who thinks this?
Roadrunner 19:43, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
I am the author of the "universalizing civilizations" section. I also wrote the "Modernizing without Westernizing". I have recently registered this account (after I wrote the section). If anyone has any advice on changes/improvements I will alter the section. I also know the person who wrote the Taiwan Strait section on this article. He thinks that the Taiwan Strait section should be edited or perhaps removed however he wants to keep the rest of section (Cyprus, Kosovo, et al).
Nizhny Novgorod: I added a section entitled: "Possible resolution of the conflict."
The German science of geography has pointed out that Huntington's regions of "civilizations" are affected by the concept of the "Kulturerdteile" (culture-continents) of the geographer Albert Kolb - a deprecated theory from 1962. In this theory, the effect of religious aspects were less important than historical and social aspects. Am I the only one for whom that passage carries no meaning? -- Christofurio 20:18, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be a mistake when you classify India & Pakistans war as a clash of two different civilizations. Most modern-day Pakistanis are descendents of Indian Hindus who converted (or were compeld to convert) to Islam. The basic population of Pakistan & of North India is or Aryan stalk. The language Urdu used by Pakistanis and Indian Muslims is nothing but Hindi loaded with Arabic words & written in Persian script.Moreover you cannot distinguish between Indian Muslims who number 160million and Pakistanis. Hence even though Pakistanis dont accept it they are a part of Indian Culture. So India & Pakistan conflict can be termed as a clash within a civilization not clash of civilizations.
The content added from the ON reference remains in this article, but the reference has been removed. This action is disputed and a conversation is ongoing here. Uriah923 06:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Voltairnet is not an encyclopedic source of information. Moreover, the article linked to does not deal with the topic of this article directly, rather it is an extended and sensationalized polemic about U.S.-Islamic interactions. Needless to say, this is only a very small piece of Huntington's theory. The Voltairnet link ought not be kept. — thames 21:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Could we get some sources for these claims? Huntington writes about immigration and might agree with some of these ideas, but the clash of civilizations is a bit more specific and focused on geopolitics. Tfine80 23:12, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
As you stated, Huntington has written about Civilizational/cultural clash within individual nations, specifically in " Who Are We? The Challenges to America's National Identity". Huntington also refers to culturally/'civilizationally' 'torn' nations in his Clash of Civilizations thesis itself. The French Muslim situation is textbook Huntington. 144.136.217.39
Where does Huntington place Israel in his theory? It's in the Mideast but seems to me to be more a Jewish part of the Western world in some ways, or a Jewish part of the Mideast in some other ways. 204.52.215.107 01:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what is meant by the sentence: The demographic decline of the West, combined with its inability to unify and even a decadent society, risked significant dangers.
Can someone who has read Huntingtn clarify? Is the following rewrite accurate: "The demographic decline of the West, combined with its inability to present a united front, and a state that Huntington considers decadent mean the West will face significant dangers."
Texteditor 18:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
What is this all about? "Clash of Civilizations critics often target traditional culture and internal reformers who do not wish to Westernize whilst modernizing. They sometimes claim that to modernize is to necessarily become Westernized to a very large extent. Those who consider the Clash of Civilizations thesis accurate often offer in refutation of its argument the example of Japan, claiming that is not a Western state at its core."
Why would those who consider the thesis accurate offer a refutation of its arguments? Something has gone wrong here, but I can't edit it because I find these sentences incomprehensible in their current form. Can someone who understands what is intended please edit this bit so that the meaning is clear? Metamagician3000 08:31, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the paragraph in the light of the above comments. What is there now makes sense to me, at least. :) Would you folks like to check it and see if you think it is right, and whether you can improve it? Metamagician3000
Thanks. Sorry about the typos. I just fixed another one. Metamagician3000 06:28, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
"Civilization is a damned good thing, if somebody would try it" Charlie Parker (1920 - 1955) ( 84.192.176.157 11:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC))
Taking Japan out of East Asian civilization is one of the weakest points of Huntington's argument. Because if he does not separate Japan from East Asian civilization ("Sinic" as Huntington calls it), then he has to explain the Sino-Japanese and Korean-Japanese tensions in the world today. Huntington arbitrarily takes Japan out of East Asian civilization as a matter of intellectual convenience.
There exist several points that are problematic in taking Japan out of East Asia:
First, Japan still uses the Chinese script (the Japanese use it far more than the "Sinic" Koreans and Vietnamese) and Japan's literary tradition absolutely depends on the mastering of Chinese characters. 65% of modern Japanese vocabulary have Sinitic origins, the remainder being native Japanese and Western loanwords. Western civilization is dependent upon the Latin alphabet, Orthodox civilization is dependent on the Cyrillic alphabet, Hindi civilization is dependent upon Sanskrit derivative scripts, and Islamic civilization is strongly influenced by the Arabic script. This leaves "Japanese civilization" the only non-derivative, core-state civilization whose main script depends on that of another civilization ("Sinic" or East Asian civilization). This is a glaring inconsistency that is only weakly glossed over by Huntington.
Second, and perhaps the most important point, Japanese thought immediately preceding its modernization was directly influenced by its contemporary Chinese thinkers. In other words, many aspects of contemporaneous Chinese thought paved the way for Japan to modernize, and strongly influenced the formation of Japanese identity in the modern era. This is in direct contrast to Huntington's cariculture-like assertion that Japan while being influenced by China in its early history, was able to develop into an independent civilization in the second millennium. The reality is that 15th and 16th century Chinese neo-Confucian intellectuals like Zhu Xi and Wang Yangming (Oyomei in Japanese) continued to strongly influence Japanese neo-Confucianists like Ogyu Sorai and reformers like Matsudaira Sadanobu, and paved the way intellectually for anti-Confucianists like Motoori Norinaga. In Asia, it was the Chinese thinker Wang Yangming who first in the 16th century argued the existence of innate knowing (that every person from birth knows the difference between good and evil, that such knowledge was intuitive and cannot be completely rationalized). His ideas inspired what is today considered the Japanese "samurai ethic." Copying Wang Yangming ideas, Motoori Norinaga in his pursuit of characterizing an unique identity for the Japanese argued that the Japanese people alone, because of their Shinto deities, had an intuitive ability to distinguish good and evil without complex rationalization. Norinaga argued that the Chinese Confucianists were too fixated on reason and rationalized virtue, and that the heritage of ancient Japan was one of natural spontaneity in feelings and spirit. Not only did Norinaga adopt Wang Yangming's ideas wholesale, his philological methodology (critical reading of ancient texts) was also similar to Chinese and Japanese neo-Confucianists like Zhu Xi and Sorai. Norinaga's ideas would later play a critical role in the Meiji government during Japan's modernization.
Third, the modernization of "Sinic" societies in the last two decades such as South Korea, Taiwan and even mainland China have blasted another gaping hole through Huntington's decision to take Japanese civilization out of East Asian civilization. Chinese society today in an era of rapid economic growth is looking ever more similar to Meiji Japan a hundred years ago.
Huntington's decision of taking Japan out of East Asian civilization amounts to a cop-out. Naus 07:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Some quotes of Huntington regarding China:
Huntington clearly has ulterior intentions. In fact one can argue that his entire thesis of the Clash of Civilizations is designed to target specifically against the muslims and Chinese. He is clearly confusing Communism in China with the Chinese civilization, and that's a shame. Chinese civilizational influence on other Asian countries is millennia long, if Huntington believes the US has the capacity to limit Chinese influence in Asia as China grows, he is in a for a sharp awakening. 69.214.107.84 19:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I came across an interview on Booknotes where SPH mentions the arrival of the Huntingtons in the U.S. in 1633. This may be of interest but I'm not sure where you would put that. It may have some bearing on his world view. Abu Amaal 03:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
"Whereas, Western civilization includes both Protestant and Catholic branches; and the Germanic and Romance cultural differences in Western Europe are also disregarded"? WTF is that about? this article needs serious attention from a competent person familiar with both huntington and english
This isn't mean to be political, only an observation. In the course of the War on Terror "Clash of Civilizations" has become almost a cachet for the conflict with Islamism. Certainly Islamism itself does see it that way from their perspective on history - and destiny. What struck me while pondering various news bits today, knitting them together as it were, is that the US seems unaware of the scale of the game which goes far beyond two civilizations. However the various spheres of civilization are defined or distinguished, the urgent fact of the increasingly global community - the immediacy of everywhere else, and the growing similarities and convergence of all civilizations; either in a violent dialectic, or one that comes to a peaceful resolution - the most unlikely of all outcomes, unfortunately. Add onto to that the growing planetary emergency of global warming, and there's a lot at stake in the bigger game.
It's not the doom and gloom that must all sound like a listing of that I'm concerned with here; I've grown used to it. What I'm raising is the notion that the current public usage of it - in the US media arena, that the theme of civilization-clash (wie sagt es auf Deutsch, bitte?) is limited in that usage to Islam vs Christendom - as if nothing else were a problem. Well, other than North Korea, but that also involves China directly, unlike Afghanistan, where China's interests are in maintaining the stability of its own Islamic populations just east and northeast of there; so supporting the American cause from there over to the MidEast is in China's best interests. India cannot take part because of its own Islamic neighbour-state, only recently being drawn into peace talks (perhaps by the American presence in the region, as a precaution; a united subcontinent would be immensely more powerful than a divided one - as Gandhi and Nehru knew. It is interesting that Europe, even Russia, is almost a bystander in the whole affair in terms of the realpolitik; the cause is American geopolitics, not European but as with China it may be the only way to stem the variour problems with Islamism in their own nations, and also in global tactical terms; for a united Europe is, too, potentially a global superpower on the same order as China or the United States or - soon, again - Russia (if not as part of Europe, that is).
The Great Game is afoot, for those out there who know their 19th Century diplomacy; only there's more players now than there were then, and the weaponry is at lot nastier and potentially world-destroying if ever used (by any side, but a launch would never be only one side....).
Sorry for the long digression; I know this isn't a blogging page and I don't mean to overly rhapsodize on world politics; it only strikes me that the scale of Huntington's thesis or the multi-civilization geopolitic of the current era is a very different sense of "clash of civilizations" than in the way that CNN, Time and others have used and repeated it; taking the title of the book, but only one geopolitical theme and coopting the phrase to a purely binary meaning; almost apocalyptic in tone sometimes in its use, but I don't mean to politicize. The idea is that the page should reflect something to the effect that the popular usage - as derived from or directedd by media usage - is different from the full scope of what's in the book. I note that the "Recent issues" section is entirely West vs. Islam events; giving the impression that the clash of civilizations is only about that dialectic, and no other forces are at play, as if there were no other players in the game.
What was a simple observation was not meant to become an essay; the essence is that there is a divergence between how this (and Hayakawa's title) can be so easily taken out of context, and are; and that listing of civilization-clash events in other eras and regions, both current and historical; those connected with the US-themed usage of "clash of civilizations" could be so grouped as "current American media use" (and, well, like I said, where Al-Queda is coming from on their end is also a clash of civilizations; that's how they define themselves) and that the rest of the list would be the US vs China in the western Pacific, or the Islam-Christendom thing in sub-Saharan Africa (in which Darfur is only the latest pawn in the game), and so on.
I'll leave it at that, and hope someone can condense my thoughts, if they're worthwhile, into Wikipedia-style text, which my habitual writing/thinking style isn't. If this should be on some other page somewhere and does not fit in terms of usage of this Talk page let me know and I'll move/remove it elsewhere. Skookum1 02:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
No doubt the common currency of the phrase "Clash of Civilizations" is due to Huntington's book and thesis; but is his thesis all that original in historiography? I'm thinking back to Toynbee's extensive works on "spheres of civilization" and the ways they have interacted over the centuries; and are bound to. Classical geopolitics - Ratzel, the shatterbelt theorists, and others, also deal with the concept of "clash of civilizations", and I'd even venture that this easy-to-construct phrase is not of Huntington's coinage. Not that this is Da Vinci Code vs Holy Blood and Holy Grail, only that perhaps this article shouldn't be so focussed on the contemporary account as popularized by Huntington, but also make at least some comment that the ideas expressed were already current in histographical/geopolitical circles before popularized to the masses in best-seller form... Skookum1 19:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
And all that by way of someone's suggestion for a map; Toynbee's vintage works have several that would be suitable.... Skookum1 19:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
fictitious name:angel right/05.07.2006/09:10 U T C
the last president of iran has set forth the discussion of civilizations. approximately most of the world , accepted this opinion . but i did not hear that anyone found it out or declared that he has decided to introduce the islamic civilisation not iranian civilisation. he decided to mix the original ancient iranian culture and civilization with imported islamic orders and introduce it as iranian civilization. in the event that the iranian original ancient religion has been zoroastrian not islam. i as an iranian and approximately all real iranians are impatiently waiting a real discussion of civilations with permition of defend of national civilization to any non government defender. we request of any powerfull ternational society to provide this opportunity. thanks, angel right -- 84.11.38.68 16:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The information about www.clashofcivilisations.com is misleading. It's an Islamist website, probably connected with Hizb-ut-Tahrir, since it talks a lot about the caliphate.
Are you sure everything's OK with the map? Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina are coloured in red ("Western Christendom"), when in fact they're Muslim-majority countries that don't have stronger ties with Western culture than other Southeastern European countries. Especially Albania has nothing to do with the West, and Bosnia certainly isn't more "Western" than Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, etc.
I know the theory is controversial, not quite up-to-date with current events (e.g. EU enlargement, economic development and geopolitical stance of Balkan countries) and all, but did Huntington actually specify Albania and Bosnia as part of the Western world in the book? I see no reason that they should be in red and not "lone" like Turkey (as secular Muslim and, in the case of Albania, until recently totally isolated from the rest of Europe) or anything else.
As a person from Southeastern Europe who's well aware of the situation here, referring to Bosnia and espcially Albania as "Western" is quite funny, if I really have to be sincere :) And that "Orthodox world" group seems totally undue today, but that's another thing. Todor → Bozhinov 18:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This map differs the one I have seen in Huntington's book. In that map there are "rifts" in the middle of Ukraine and Romania. 84.2.210.186 07:07, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The structure of Huntington's world map of civilisations is somewhat fluid, and was criticized as being inaccurate from its inception. As such, some difference in regard to contemporary ethnic societies is to be expected.
Is the map from the book available online somewhere? -- Astrokey 44 11:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The author of this article lists Huntington's civilizations (Sinic, Western Christendom, Orthodox, etc, etc). But the list is wrong. I don't mean Huntington's list is wrong (well, it is a bit nuts, but that's another matter). I mean that the author of the Wiki article made at least two major mistakes in what should have been an easy task.
First, the author would have us believe that Huntington listed "Buddhist" as one of the major civiliazations. That is flat-out not true. In fact, on page 48 of his book, says, "...Buddhism, although a major religion, has not been the basis of a major civilization."
Secondly, Huntington did NOT include "Western Christendom" as a civilization. It was "Western" in the book - see page 46. Yes, he does delve into the obvious identity-cultural link between Christianity and "the West." But for him, the West is NOT one of the civlizations that defines itself by a major world religion. That is a major underlying point in the book - the West's pluralism and secularism.
Third, Huntington does not list the British Caribbean islands as a distinct civilization.
I think that the first point above is quite serious and needs to be corrected in this article.
I deleted the short "Misconceptions" section recently added by 69.249.97.64. The section made two claims. First, the hypothesis that "The clash of civilizations predicts increased numbers of wars" is argued not to be derived from Huntington's theory. Well, the hypothesis is in line with Huntington's own words. In his essay, Huntigton explicitly predicted a change in frequency of conflicts: "conflict between groups in different civilizations will be more frequent, more sustained and more violent than conflicts between groups in the same civilization". Second, 69.249.97.64 argued that Huntington's critics ignore his view that states would remain the key actors in IR. Well, none of the critical studies cited in this article does it. Tankred 00:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm wondering if it's appropriate to put the Toronto Terrorism case in as a "Islam & the West" story, considering that Mubin Shaikh, a conservative Muslim who in his words "did it for Islam," worked as an informant for the RCMP and collected most of the evidence used to bring the suspects to trial.
JB
1:30 Nov 6, 2006
Should we consider war between Croatia and Serbia Western-Orthodox clash, and wars Croatia and Serbia led against Bosnian Muslims Western-Islam and Orthodox-Islam clashes?
While this article is referred to as controversial (and rightly so), it currently lacks any section addressing the actual arguments for and against this theory.
One example of this is the concept of social reflexivity. Given Huntington's background and the seriousness with which this text was taken at upper levels, it would not at all be surprising to consider the possibility that a broad, civilisational perspective WOULD be taken by increasing numbers of people over time. The fact that this could occur promotes the article and book's abilities as persuasive pieces, not analytical fact. A comparison in this regard could be made to the viewpoints of ethical egoists.
On a related note, I think that there are currently too many examples of events that may align with Huntington's theory in that list, there. The criterion for application is simply that violence is, broadly, nationalistic, given Huntington's claims. As such, we don't really need a listing of all or most human conflict linked here.
Would anyone care to clarify this passage please:
What is "conversion by others Universal"? And, what is the predicate of the sentence beginning with the word "Teleological", and where does it stop? Maybe "conversion of others" is meant, and some periods are missing? I don't want to fix it myself cause I'm not sure what is meant.
Thanks
Sukkoth 10:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The Darfur conflict cannot be an example here, as that conflict is between Arabic-speaking Black African Muslims, and non-Arabic speaking Black African Muslims (without prejudice as to the cause of the conflict). See any Wiki article about it, for example, Janjaweed. Therefore, This is not a conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims. Perhaps the cotributor confused it with the conflict in South-Sudan/ Equatoria.
The conflicts in northern Nigeria might be a better example of an Islamic-"African" conflict, although Islamic-Christian would be more accurate.
Sukkoth 10:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I have recently reverted the addition of "Ethinic cleansing in Bangladesh" by User:Sujoyiit (aka 130.126.228.190?). The list of "recent issues" should include articles in Wikipedia. It is not a list of external links. If we start adding external links about all ethnic conflicts in the world, this will become the longest article ever. Moreover, websites are often partisan and they contradict each other. To sum up, I believe the [4] edit put an external link to an inappropriate place of an inappropriate article. Tankred 17:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I differ with user:tankred in that the "recent issues" need not "necessarily" include articles within wikipedia ( although this is mostly the case). The external link is provided "only" for the user reference. Websites can be partisan and contradict but that is for the users to decide which one to accept. Removing edits just because someone doubts authenticity of a source is not a wiki policy. Finally, I disagree that the link is inappropiate since is at the core of "Hindu-Islamic clash" as mentioned in the book (although not this particular case). I expect user who wish to omit my addition to "first settle" the issue with me (user:sujoyiit) by email or talk page instead resorting to unilateral deletions.-- Sujoyiit 18:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Who decides wich conflict will be linked in, and wich not? I don't see clear references, just popular believes, and some ethnic conflicts listed as civilizational clashes, wich are quite constrained to be listed here as a "recent issue". Clash of civilizations is about the clash of civilizations, where civilizaitions are clashing. Like Ukrainian presidental elections, tha israeli-arab conflict, international terrorism, and such. Wars other than the former Yugoslavia's (Kosovo, Croatia vs Serbia) are tipically one of those constrained ones. You misunderstood Huntington? -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 10:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
The identity crisis of the 1990s, wich lead to the new order of civilizations
Religions are more important in civilizational clashes, than ethnicity or such.
And some more. -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 11:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Like Francis Fukuyama's The End of History and the Last Man wich is really not important to mention. No, the reason, why Huntington wrote this book is not intresting. No. Not. Gosh... -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 00:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Clash of Civilizations/Archive_1 for the archived discussions from prior to this year. Kyle Cronan 05:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I have made a plot of past and projected population by civilization, using Huntington's classification. The data is from the US Census and covers the period 1950-2050. Perhaps this is a bit too much in the way of original research (as I had to decide exactly which countries to put into each civilization), but I wondered if this might be good for the article. One caveat is that as Huntington himself points out, this model is not so useful once you go back to the Cold War era and may not be again in 2050. But it seems to give a pretty good impression of how things are changing presently.
I'd be glad to also post the country lists if people are interested in how this data came about. Here is the image.
Kyle Cronan 05:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Rastinny 11:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Atleast with regards to India. I dont think it does justice to Sikhs, Jains, Bddhists or even India's 150 million Muslims to pegionhole Indian civilization as a "Hindu civilization". Whats more the South East Asian countries decidedly have cosiderable Hindu influence. I know Huntington labels it as such, but the map makes it look as if Wikipedia is endorsing his hypothesis. I mean c'mon you dont need a grossly incorrect map on this article. This isnt Clash of Civilizations of Dummies or something, is it? Amey Aryan DaBrood © 19:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
In fact, India is also marked as a "cleft" coutry. It's muslim pop is considered as part of the Muslim civ. Huntington's map is divided on religions, not real borders. Those are just sometimes match with religious borders. So, I partially agree that the map incorrect. OFF:But this is common. ( Personal attack removed) -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 12:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The main problem with the map is that it differs from Huntington's own map (in the book) in quite a few details. Arguably it reflects Huntington's views better than his own map but it involves some interpretation that might be controversial. Christopher Parham (talk) 01:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
There is also a mistake on the map regarding Bosnia and Herzegovina. On the map it is under Orthodox and in the text it says Muslim. In reality is neither Orthodox nor Muslim nor Western. It's a strange kind of mix. 122.162.158.198 12:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
As we all know this is a major issue within the Huntington framework.
Even on this wikipedia page the information is carelessly contradictory, as Bosnia and Herzegovina is placed in the Orthodox camp on the map and in the Islamic camp in the text.
I am here to propose a solution.
As we all know Bosnia and Herzegovina is a region particularly relevant to the clash of civilizations concept because the three major groups there, the Serbs (Orthodox), the Bosniaks (Muslim), and the Croats (Catholic) connect their national identity largely with their religions (civilizations). As Huntington observed, this led to a clash of these 3 civilizations and a civil war. The country is now an independent state for the first time in history and we are puzzled as to where to place this country on Huntington's map.
The solution is simple: Bosnia and Herzegovina is divided into 2 distinct entities, The Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Serb Republic (Republika Srpska). Each entity takes up roughly 50% of the geographical area. (see Subdivisions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina on wikipedia) The population of the eastern region, Republika Srpska, is nearly 90% Serb and thus 90%+ Orthodox. The other entity, The Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is 70% Bosniak and 28% Croat. That second entity may yet see a struggle between the Islamic and Western civilizations, but one thing is clear...
The western borders of the Orthodox Civilization must be drawn at the Republika Srpska, including this entity into the Orthodox world. This is a notion Huntington himself would certainly agree with, and the solution that makes the most sense. Bosnia and Herzegovina is far too divided along civilizational lines to be represented as a whole single entity on the Huntington map. It is Huntington's view that any such country that embodies clashing civilizations will meet the same fate as Yugoslavia itself in the near future: civil war and ultimately partitioning of territory along civilizational lines.
I propose we make this change to both the text and the map, dividing Bosnia and Herzegovina by its distinct entities.
-- 24.150.77.3 23:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I took me quite a while to find this article, being that I was using "Civilisations rather than the American "Civilizations". I'm not a pro at Wikiediting, so could someone put a redirect to this page from the former's spelling? Thanks --AQjosh 14:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I just changed in a slightly bold/choleric action the main article on Samuel P. Huntington. Maybe I should have waited for a reactions on my entry in the talk section Talk:Samuel P. Huntington#Coinage:_The Clash of Civilization.
BUTWhat I cut out now is an unsourced contribution in brackets, that suggests the following influence on the "Clash of Civilization" : (inspired by Polish scientist Feliks Koneczny) My hope is that the author might be around, and strictly it belongs here. LeaNder ( talk) 13:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, Koneczny also divided civilisation into seven types and also argued, that civilisations lead the wars.. But Koneczny divided civilisation not according to language and religion, but according to treatment of law, ethics, church, attitude to private and public spheres of life etc. In Koneczny classification, for example, France is byzantine type of civilisation (high role of state, centralisation, no place for ethics in politics) despite being catholic country. Szopen ( talk) 16:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
We learn a lesson from Harvard clashes. See the historical instances in the following sections. -- KYPark ( talk) 10:54, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
the map/theory is laughable. It has greece painted with the same color as russia and whatever is "at that side of the world" just because of the religion denomination. i suspect the guy is a fanatical christian of a certain denomination seeing only black or white for regions never visited or even cared to read something more than a few sentences about them. greece, the country that gave the roots of the western civilization and the word that names europe. not only this theory is ridiculous, the whole article should be at least renamed to ".. (book)" or ".. (Huntington 's view)" -- Leladax 11:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I find nothing laughable. And you are entitled to your own opinions... however laughable.
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 ( talk) 10:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate the usefulness of File:Clash of Civilizations world map.png, but there remain some issues:
-- dab (𒁳) 16:16, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
The original map in the source is this one and only this map is corresponds with it. -- Olahus ( talk) 06:46, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Did Huntington say that Eastern Thrace and Anatolia belong to two different civilizations? Prove he did and I'll your map alone.-- Mttll ( talk) 20:56, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
So you accept it's a technical glitch and you don't think it should be corrected?
Turkey's case is different. It's a glitch like Tsourkpk says. Do you not agree? Do you think the source thinks Eastern Thrace belongs to a different civilization? Please, being neutral doesn't mean acting like robots or zombies.-- Mttll ( talk) 18:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Fine. Just correct that printing error. Apparently that map doesn't recognize lone countries, but that's another topic of discussion.-- Mttll ( talk) 19:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I have updated the map of Huntington's major civilizations to more accurately reflect the one from the book. This look about right? Kyle Cronan 08:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll take a look at the book's map tonight and provide some input on this. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Ishvara's identified errors are supported by the book to various degrees; Haiti is the most clear one. (Israel isn't marked as Muslim in Kyle's map.) With countries like Kazakhstan, however, it is not clear that being majority Muslim puts them in the Muslim civilization; Kazakhstan is pretty clearly identified as being politically dominated by its Russian minority. And while the Phillipines are clearly Catholic it's not clear that this puts them in the Western world. In general, Huntington doesn't speak directly to the affiliation of many countries. The nice thing about adopting the same divisions as Huntington's own map is that they are clear and unambiguous. Christopher Parham (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I have done a slow revert on the map again. If anyone objects (Ishvara, are you still around?), please let's discuss it here. Personally, I just don't see how it can be incorrect to use a map that follows exactly what's in the book. Kyle Cronan 19:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
KOREA AND JAPAN ( ALTAIC CULTURAL GROUP). LANGUAGE WISE AND CULTURAL WISE NON-CHINESE SPHERE. MAP IS WRONG. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Korean1Professor ( talk • contribs) 08:27, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Wooah, that is some statement! I would suggest removing this sentence:"The Clash of Civilizations thesis may also be regarded as an example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The ideas of Huntington and Bernard Lewis were already influential among American neoconservative figures such as Vice President Dick Cheney prior to September 11, 2001;[citation needed] Middle East scholar Gilles Kepel (2003) reports that many radical Islamists in the Middle East likewise viewed Huntington's thesis approvingly.". The claim that this theory in itself is the principal cause for conflicts between the different "civilizations" is pretty bold and does need citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.247.238 ( talk) 11:53, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
World politics is entering a new phase, in which the great divisions among humankind and the dominating source of international conflict will be cultural. Civilizations-the highest cultural groupings of people-are differentiated from each other by religion, history, language and tradition. These divisions are deep and increasing in importance. From Yugoslavia to the Middle East to Central Asia, the fault lines of civilizations are the battle lines of the future. In this emerging era of cultural conflict the United States must forge alliances with similar cultures and spread its values wherever possible. With alien civilizations the West must be accommodating if possible, but confrontational if necessary. In the final analysis, however, all civilizations will have to learn to tolerate each other —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.28.27.68 ( talk) 16:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
i'm all for it but you try telling every other person in the world that they have to abandon their culture and way of living for some yet to be determined global civ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.34.27.132 ( talk) 02:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
'The slow suicide of the West' by Jorge Majfud, presented an argument against the views of a certain famous Italian journalist (an Italian best seller writer/journalist who is known to have problems with most of the people around the world). While the journalist's venom was mainly targetted against African Muslims, it does not exclude Muslims of different ethnicity. Her argument was based on the premise that west has a open tolerant value system while Islam is repressive and intolerant in doctrine. Jorge Majfud presented the other side of the view with gallant logic.
I have heard many such arguments from intellectuals who on one hand proclaim to be tolerant, rational and logical but on the other hand stand rigidly on jingoistic opinions. Infact those who tout the supremacy of the western rational and progressive values often forget that this was not the case during its entire history until the very recent times. The history of the west is replete with many instances of regressive values (the crusades, the inquistion, slavery, not to mention colonization atrocities) and irrationality.
I suppose the journalist's intolerance of Islam talk volumes of her open minded values. Muslim Immigrants are growing ever more conscious of the image that they carry with them considering that even before they open their mouth, their last name, their attire and skin colour subject them to a prejudiced straitjacket. In the meanwhile, thank god for some sane voices like that of Jorge Majfud. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.99.170.150 ( talk) 01:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Malta is counted as being part of the Muslim world. This is certainly incorrect. They are 98% Catholic and are adamently European. Their ethnicity is a mix of Arab (because of repeated invasions throughout history) and Italian (due to proximity), but the Maltese should be counted as part of Western Europe.
212.22.61.71 ( talk) 17:20, 1 May 2009 (UTC)A. F.
Aside from Australia and New Zealand, which have obvious Western roots, has Huntington ever made any formal statements about the nations of the Pacific Ocean? It seems that this region was largely ignored. These countries are generally grouped in with the Western World, but this seems odd when you consider that Huntington considered the English-speaking Caribbean to be a distinct civilization. The linguistic and cultural roots are largely indigenous - Polynesian, Micronesian, Melanesian, and Papuan - rather than Western. The only real criteria I can see that would make them Western is the prevalence of Christianity, but even that is often highly sychretized with indigenous rituals such as the ceremonial use of kava. Western influence through colonization and Christianization does not seem to make Sub-Saharan Africa part of the West either, for example... -- 76.98.148.217 ( talk) 13:58, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Why Turkey is green? It is a lone country in Huntington's map.--Martianmister (talk) 11:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, somebody should correct that. I will remove the map, it's misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.106.169.123 ( talk) 19:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I have restored Turkey and reverted the map to its earliest version which I think is the most correct version. Because in Huntington's criticism, the Turkish culture is the mixture between Islam and Western, a lone country like Japan or Ethiopia with its owned culture. As you can see, the map was fixed by some Muslims. That is nosense to say that Turkey is the same sort with other Muslim cultures, it's not totally right, at least if according to the original criticism of Huntington. I also think that Turkey is mixed, not very Muslim culture at all. Angelo De La Paz ( talk) 03:33, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Turkey is supposed to have a unique color in that map. Please fix that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fnr Kllrb ( talk • contribs) 05:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
"a lone country like Japan or Ethiopia with its owned culture."
Don't you understand that EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has their own separate culture? The lumping in the map is simply ridiculous. Intranetusa ( talk) 04:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
In the third paragraph "it has been claimed" is tagged as "weasel words". Reference (#8) is provided and the text as written seems appropriate. Labelling the ideas following in the paragraph a "claim" is correct; neither clear-cut fact or an overt falsehood. I suggest removing the "weasel" tag. JAB
I majored in International Relations and Western World Studies! What is interesting is that the author sperates Latin America as their own civilization, If I can recall it was Europeans that colonized all of Latin America. The French, English, Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch. Even in Canada is way different than the US. Quebec is official in French. Quebec considers themselves part of Latin America. But the world "Latin" by itself is too contraversial as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.2.137.103 ( talk) 06:30, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
In Canada, on the other hand, the Metis are relatively small portion of the Francophone population, while the larger Quebecois are more solidly Western. Quebec's indigenous people are marginalized by the mainstream, having only minor influences that are much under-appreciated. In opinion, however, Argentina and Uruguay should also be counted as "Western", apart from the rest of Latin America due to their overwhelmingly European flavor and their lack of pronounced indigenous or African influence. -- 74.220.50.16 ( talk) 09:38, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
The article contains right now this passage:
"Huntington's geopolitical model, especially the structures for North Africa and Eurasia, is largely derived from the "Intermediate Region" geopolitical model first formulated by Dimitri Kitsikis and published in 1978."
There is a reference to Greek and Turkish edit ions of Kitsikis' book but it's quiteunclear to me whether Huntington has indeed been influenced in any significant way by Kitsikis. Did Huntington ever read Kitsikis' books, much less derived his theory from them? This latter claim is somewhat dubious, unless backed up with a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bazuz ( talk • contribs) 22:00, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a problem with both the map and the division of the civilization(s) especially as it pertains to the case of Bosnia, as part of the former Yugoslavia. Huntington fairly clearly noted that Bosnia was one of those locations where, according to him, civilizations clashed precisely because of its fusion of Western (Catholic), Islamic and Orthodox influences. As such, to simply lump Bosnia into the category of "Orthodox" civilization is missing the entire point of his thesis, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.246.52.131 ( talk) 22:09, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Huntington writes in Clash of Civilizations that instead of belonging to one of the "major" civilizations, Ethiopia and Haiti are "lone" countries, and that Israel could be considered a unique state with its own civilization.
Therefore, imho, these three countries should appear in a different color in the map. It is true that Ethiopia, Haiti and Israel are not singled out in the original map (the one printed on the book), but we'd rather give priority to the text over the map. Sebasbronzini ( talk) 19:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.149.74 ( talk) 02:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
The article's thesis is ridiculous concerning my country. We have absolutely no real ties with Russia at the moment. The OPPOSITE is true. There have been talks with Turkey and Russia after the "Georgia Incident" last year "If you help us with Georgia, we'll help you with Cyprus" is what Russia said to Turkey. Even if the situation is not black and white - a deal with oil by last government comes to mind - there's certainly no real certainty of ties. If you have some ties with someone and some differences, the same may be true with others. This RELIGIOUS-centric view of the world has failed. It's not the 19th century anymore.-- 194.219.255.153 ( talk) 15:40, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
how can france be described as a cleft between sub-saharan-africa and france, using french guyana as an example. french guyana's state of development might be discussed, but its geographic location is definitely not in africa, but in south america. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.20.227 ( talk) 10:13, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
IF i am not wrong,Bhutan is a predominantly Buddhist country.Granted that it has pseudo-suzerainty with India - a.k.a Hindu civilization but that foes not stop it from labeling it as a "Hindu civilization"please help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.219.225.43 ( talk) 13:49, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Can we change the map in the article to this version? It is much easier to read. 89.188.103.210 ( talk) 10:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
não é oeste vs resto o oeste se expandiu na zona de outras estas estão a retomar seu espaço por exemplo a longitude Americana já em outros casos a civilização islamica tenta recuperar o tempo que perdeu com o oeste se expandindo e atrapalhando sua expansão por exemplo no sul da asia onde ja controlavam quase tudo pouco antes do oeste chegar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.64.9.219 ( talk) 22:47, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
"Guyana and Suriname (cleft between Hindu and Sub-Saharan African)" Is that really an accurate description of what Huntington said in the book? It seems ridiculous to me, but has been in the article for a long time (I found the same phrasing all the way back to 2009). -- Khajidha ( talk) 21:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
this section has had no sources and a tag for practically 2 years now. If there is no source for this original research/synthesis then it doesnt belong here.( Lihaas ( talk) 11:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
This section has no sources and is purely based on the editor's speculation. I think that this section should be deleted
Talibalim (
talk)
18:04, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
This section lists a number of bullet points that it claims Huntington attributes to the clash of Islam and the west. It says that both Islam and Christianity are missionary religions, universalist (all or nothing) and teleological. I see nothing in the article that states these things but I find it an interesting comment so I was wondering if someone could source this for me?
Thanks, Pmychang — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.198.213.117 ( talk) 05:32, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
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Considering this is the second most assigned textbook in Ivy League schools after Plato's Republic, I think the article needs to spend more time talking about its impact. It should also be rated higher on its relative importance scales. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/03/what-ivy-league-students-are-reading-that-you-arent/ - 2605:E000:1714:C080:F968:95EF:F0F8:EE22 ( talk) 22:02, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
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The picture used to accompany the article does not appear to be of the book The Clash of Civilizations, as stated, but rather of the edition of Foreign Affairs magazine in which Huntingdon originally proposed his theory. Will I just go ahead and make the appropriate changes or does anyone have any objections? Brooklyn Eagle ( talk) 00:04, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
Move to talk for elaboration. I don't see how this thesis applies to the Taiwan straits. Arguing that Taiwan is Chinese, doesn't explain the situation, nor does arguing that Taiwan is Western explain things like the fact that the United States has limited support for Chen Shuibian.
I signed your comment above.
I'm guessing that what the author of the above passage was trying to get at was that the Taiwan Straits conflict is one between the PRC (a Sinic civilization) and the United States (a Western civilization). -- Lowellian 18:55, May 21, 2004 (UTC)
That's one interpretation, but it's one that hardly vindicates Huntington's thesis. Huntington's thesis would not account for the fact that the US has at times tilted (however slightly) toward Beijing in the last year.
Roadrunner 19:41, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
This needs to be attributed. Who thinks this?
Roadrunner 19:43, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
I am the author of the "universalizing civilizations" section. I also wrote the "Modernizing without Westernizing". I have recently registered this account (after I wrote the section). If anyone has any advice on changes/improvements I will alter the section. I also know the person who wrote the Taiwan Strait section on this article. He thinks that the Taiwan Strait section should be edited or perhaps removed however he wants to keep the rest of section (Cyprus, Kosovo, et al).
Nizhny Novgorod: I added a section entitled: "Possible resolution of the conflict."
The German science of geography has pointed out that Huntington's regions of "civilizations" are affected by the concept of the "Kulturerdteile" (culture-continents) of the geographer Albert Kolb - a deprecated theory from 1962. In this theory, the effect of religious aspects were less important than historical and social aspects. Am I the only one for whom that passage carries no meaning? -- Christofurio 20:18, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
There seems to be a mistake when you classify India & Pakistans war as a clash of two different civilizations. Most modern-day Pakistanis are descendents of Indian Hindus who converted (or were compeld to convert) to Islam. The basic population of Pakistan & of North India is or Aryan stalk. The language Urdu used by Pakistanis and Indian Muslims is nothing but Hindi loaded with Arabic words & written in Persian script.Moreover you cannot distinguish between Indian Muslims who number 160million and Pakistanis. Hence even though Pakistanis dont accept it they are a part of Indian Culture. So India & Pakistan conflict can be termed as a clash within a civilization not clash of civilizations.
The content added from the ON reference remains in this article, but the reference has been removed. This action is disputed and a conversation is ongoing here. Uriah923 06:33, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Voltairnet is not an encyclopedic source of information. Moreover, the article linked to does not deal with the topic of this article directly, rather it is an extended and sensationalized polemic about U.S.-Islamic interactions. Needless to say, this is only a very small piece of Huntington's theory. The Voltairnet link ought not be kept. — thames 21:20, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Could we get some sources for these claims? Huntington writes about immigration and might agree with some of these ideas, but the clash of civilizations is a bit more specific and focused on geopolitics. Tfine80 23:12, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
As you stated, Huntington has written about Civilizational/cultural clash within individual nations, specifically in " Who Are We? The Challenges to America's National Identity". Huntington also refers to culturally/'civilizationally' 'torn' nations in his Clash of Civilizations thesis itself. The French Muslim situation is textbook Huntington. 144.136.217.39
Where does Huntington place Israel in his theory? It's in the Mideast but seems to me to be more a Jewish part of the Western world in some ways, or a Jewish part of the Mideast in some other ways. 204.52.215.107 01:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure what is meant by the sentence: The demographic decline of the West, combined with its inability to unify and even a decadent society, risked significant dangers.
Can someone who has read Huntingtn clarify? Is the following rewrite accurate: "The demographic decline of the West, combined with its inability to present a united front, and a state that Huntington considers decadent mean the West will face significant dangers."
Texteditor 18:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
What is this all about? "Clash of Civilizations critics often target traditional culture and internal reformers who do not wish to Westernize whilst modernizing. They sometimes claim that to modernize is to necessarily become Westernized to a very large extent. Those who consider the Clash of Civilizations thesis accurate often offer in refutation of its argument the example of Japan, claiming that is not a Western state at its core."
Why would those who consider the thesis accurate offer a refutation of its arguments? Something has gone wrong here, but I can't edit it because I find these sentences incomprehensible in their current form. Can someone who understands what is intended please edit this bit so that the meaning is clear? Metamagician3000 08:31, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I've rewritten the paragraph in the light of the above comments. What is there now makes sense to me, at least. :) Would you folks like to check it and see if you think it is right, and whether you can improve it? Metamagician3000
Thanks. Sorry about the typos. I just fixed another one. Metamagician3000 06:28, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
"Civilization is a damned good thing, if somebody would try it" Charlie Parker (1920 - 1955) ( 84.192.176.157 11:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC))
Taking Japan out of East Asian civilization is one of the weakest points of Huntington's argument. Because if he does not separate Japan from East Asian civilization ("Sinic" as Huntington calls it), then he has to explain the Sino-Japanese and Korean-Japanese tensions in the world today. Huntington arbitrarily takes Japan out of East Asian civilization as a matter of intellectual convenience.
There exist several points that are problematic in taking Japan out of East Asia:
First, Japan still uses the Chinese script (the Japanese use it far more than the "Sinic" Koreans and Vietnamese) and Japan's literary tradition absolutely depends on the mastering of Chinese characters. 65% of modern Japanese vocabulary have Sinitic origins, the remainder being native Japanese and Western loanwords. Western civilization is dependent upon the Latin alphabet, Orthodox civilization is dependent on the Cyrillic alphabet, Hindi civilization is dependent upon Sanskrit derivative scripts, and Islamic civilization is strongly influenced by the Arabic script. This leaves "Japanese civilization" the only non-derivative, core-state civilization whose main script depends on that of another civilization ("Sinic" or East Asian civilization). This is a glaring inconsistency that is only weakly glossed over by Huntington.
Second, and perhaps the most important point, Japanese thought immediately preceding its modernization was directly influenced by its contemporary Chinese thinkers. In other words, many aspects of contemporaneous Chinese thought paved the way for Japan to modernize, and strongly influenced the formation of Japanese identity in the modern era. This is in direct contrast to Huntington's cariculture-like assertion that Japan while being influenced by China in its early history, was able to develop into an independent civilization in the second millennium. The reality is that 15th and 16th century Chinese neo-Confucian intellectuals like Zhu Xi and Wang Yangming (Oyomei in Japanese) continued to strongly influence Japanese neo-Confucianists like Ogyu Sorai and reformers like Matsudaira Sadanobu, and paved the way intellectually for anti-Confucianists like Motoori Norinaga. In Asia, it was the Chinese thinker Wang Yangming who first in the 16th century argued the existence of innate knowing (that every person from birth knows the difference between good and evil, that such knowledge was intuitive and cannot be completely rationalized). His ideas inspired what is today considered the Japanese "samurai ethic." Copying Wang Yangming ideas, Motoori Norinaga in his pursuit of characterizing an unique identity for the Japanese argued that the Japanese people alone, because of their Shinto deities, had an intuitive ability to distinguish good and evil without complex rationalization. Norinaga argued that the Chinese Confucianists were too fixated on reason and rationalized virtue, and that the heritage of ancient Japan was one of natural spontaneity in feelings and spirit. Not only did Norinaga adopt Wang Yangming's ideas wholesale, his philological methodology (critical reading of ancient texts) was also similar to Chinese and Japanese neo-Confucianists like Zhu Xi and Sorai. Norinaga's ideas would later play a critical role in the Meiji government during Japan's modernization.
Third, the modernization of "Sinic" societies in the last two decades such as South Korea, Taiwan and even mainland China have blasted another gaping hole through Huntington's decision to take Japanese civilization out of East Asian civilization. Chinese society today in an era of rapid economic growth is looking ever more similar to Meiji Japan a hundred years ago.
Huntington's decision of taking Japan out of East Asian civilization amounts to a cop-out. Naus 07:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Some quotes of Huntington regarding China:
Huntington clearly has ulterior intentions. In fact one can argue that his entire thesis of the Clash of Civilizations is designed to target specifically against the muslims and Chinese. He is clearly confusing Communism in China with the Chinese civilization, and that's a shame. Chinese civilizational influence on other Asian countries is millennia long, if Huntington believes the US has the capacity to limit Chinese influence in Asia as China grows, he is in a for a sharp awakening. 69.214.107.84 19:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I came across an interview on Booknotes where SPH mentions the arrival of the Huntingtons in the U.S. in 1633. This may be of interest but I'm not sure where you would put that. It may have some bearing on his world view. Abu Amaal 03:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
"Whereas, Western civilization includes both Protestant and Catholic branches; and the Germanic and Romance cultural differences in Western Europe are also disregarded"? WTF is that about? this article needs serious attention from a competent person familiar with both huntington and english
This isn't mean to be political, only an observation. In the course of the War on Terror "Clash of Civilizations" has become almost a cachet for the conflict with Islamism. Certainly Islamism itself does see it that way from their perspective on history - and destiny. What struck me while pondering various news bits today, knitting them together as it were, is that the US seems unaware of the scale of the game which goes far beyond two civilizations. However the various spheres of civilization are defined or distinguished, the urgent fact of the increasingly global community - the immediacy of everywhere else, and the growing similarities and convergence of all civilizations; either in a violent dialectic, or one that comes to a peaceful resolution - the most unlikely of all outcomes, unfortunately. Add onto to that the growing planetary emergency of global warming, and there's a lot at stake in the bigger game.
It's not the doom and gloom that must all sound like a listing of that I'm concerned with here; I've grown used to it. What I'm raising is the notion that the current public usage of it - in the US media arena, that the theme of civilization-clash (wie sagt es auf Deutsch, bitte?) is limited in that usage to Islam vs Christendom - as if nothing else were a problem. Well, other than North Korea, but that also involves China directly, unlike Afghanistan, where China's interests are in maintaining the stability of its own Islamic populations just east and northeast of there; so supporting the American cause from there over to the MidEast is in China's best interests. India cannot take part because of its own Islamic neighbour-state, only recently being drawn into peace talks (perhaps by the American presence in the region, as a precaution; a united subcontinent would be immensely more powerful than a divided one - as Gandhi and Nehru knew. It is interesting that Europe, even Russia, is almost a bystander in the whole affair in terms of the realpolitik; the cause is American geopolitics, not European but as with China it may be the only way to stem the variour problems with Islamism in their own nations, and also in global tactical terms; for a united Europe is, too, potentially a global superpower on the same order as China or the United States or - soon, again - Russia (if not as part of Europe, that is).
The Great Game is afoot, for those out there who know their 19th Century diplomacy; only there's more players now than there were then, and the weaponry is at lot nastier and potentially world-destroying if ever used (by any side, but a launch would never be only one side....).
Sorry for the long digression; I know this isn't a blogging page and I don't mean to overly rhapsodize on world politics; it only strikes me that the scale of Huntington's thesis or the multi-civilization geopolitic of the current era is a very different sense of "clash of civilizations" than in the way that CNN, Time and others have used and repeated it; taking the title of the book, but only one geopolitical theme and coopting the phrase to a purely binary meaning; almost apocalyptic in tone sometimes in its use, but I don't mean to politicize. The idea is that the page should reflect something to the effect that the popular usage - as derived from or directedd by media usage - is different from the full scope of what's in the book. I note that the "Recent issues" section is entirely West vs. Islam events; giving the impression that the clash of civilizations is only about that dialectic, and no other forces are at play, as if there were no other players in the game.
What was a simple observation was not meant to become an essay; the essence is that there is a divergence between how this (and Hayakawa's title) can be so easily taken out of context, and are; and that listing of civilization-clash events in other eras and regions, both current and historical; those connected with the US-themed usage of "clash of civilizations" could be so grouped as "current American media use" (and, well, like I said, where Al-Queda is coming from on their end is also a clash of civilizations; that's how they define themselves) and that the rest of the list would be the US vs China in the western Pacific, or the Islam-Christendom thing in sub-Saharan Africa (in which Darfur is only the latest pawn in the game), and so on.
I'll leave it at that, and hope someone can condense my thoughts, if they're worthwhile, into Wikipedia-style text, which my habitual writing/thinking style isn't. If this should be on some other page somewhere and does not fit in terms of usage of this Talk page let me know and I'll move/remove it elsewhere. Skookum1 02:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
No doubt the common currency of the phrase "Clash of Civilizations" is due to Huntington's book and thesis; but is his thesis all that original in historiography? I'm thinking back to Toynbee's extensive works on "spheres of civilization" and the ways they have interacted over the centuries; and are bound to. Classical geopolitics - Ratzel, the shatterbelt theorists, and others, also deal with the concept of "clash of civilizations", and I'd even venture that this easy-to-construct phrase is not of Huntington's coinage. Not that this is Da Vinci Code vs Holy Blood and Holy Grail, only that perhaps this article shouldn't be so focussed on the contemporary account as popularized by Huntington, but also make at least some comment that the ideas expressed were already current in histographical/geopolitical circles before popularized to the masses in best-seller form... Skookum1 19:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
And all that by way of someone's suggestion for a map; Toynbee's vintage works have several that would be suitable.... Skookum1 19:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
fictitious name:angel right/05.07.2006/09:10 U T C
the last president of iran has set forth the discussion of civilizations. approximately most of the world , accepted this opinion . but i did not hear that anyone found it out or declared that he has decided to introduce the islamic civilisation not iranian civilisation. he decided to mix the original ancient iranian culture and civilization with imported islamic orders and introduce it as iranian civilization. in the event that the iranian original ancient religion has been zoroastrian not islam. i as an iranian and approximately all real iranians are impatiently waiting a real discussion of civilations with permition of defend of national civilization to any non government defender. we request of any powerfull ternational society to provide this opportunity. thanks, angel right -- 84.11.38.68 16:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The information about www.clashofcivilisations.com is misleading. It's an Islamist website, probably connected with Hizb-ut-Tahrir, since it talks a lot about the caliphate.
Are you sure everything's OK with the map? Albania and Bosnia and Herzegovina are coloured in red ("Western Christendom"), when in fact they're Muslim-majority countries that don't have stronger ties with Western culture than other Southeastern European countries. Especially Albania has nothing to do with the West, and Bosnia certainly isn't more "Western" than Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, etc.
I know the theory is controversial, not quite up-to-date with current events (e.g. EU enlargement, economic development and geopolitical stance of Balkan countries) and all, but did Huntington actually specify Albania and Bosnia as part of the Western world in the book? I see no reason that they should be in red and not "lone" like Turkey (as secular Muslim and, in the case of Albania, until recently totally isolated from the rest of Europe) or anything else.
As a person from Southeastern Europe who's well aware of the situation here, referring to Bosnia and espcially Albania as "Western" is quite funny, if I really have to be sincere :) And that "Orthodox world" group seems totally undue today, but that's another thing. Todor → Bozhinov 18:43, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
This map differs the one I have seen in Huntington's book. In that map there are "rifts" in the middle of Ukraine and Romania. 84.2.210.186 07:07, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The structure of Huntington's world map of civilisations is somewhat fluid, and was criticized as being inaccurate from its inception. As such, some difference in regard to contemporary ethnic societies is to be expected.
Is the map from the book available online somewhere? -- Astrokey 44 11:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The author of this article lists Huntington's civilizations (Sinic, Western Christendom, Orthodox, etc, etc). But the list is wrong. I don't mean Huntington's list is wrong (well, it is a bit nuts, but that's another matter). I mean that the author of the Wiki article made at least two major mistakes in what should have been an easy task.
First, the author would have us believe that Huntington listed "Buddhist" as one of the major civiliazations. That is flat-out not true. In fact, on page 48 of his book, says, "...Buddhism, although a major religion, has not been the basis of a major civilization."
Secondly, Huntington did NOT include "Western Christendom" as a civilization. It was "Western" in the book - see page 46. Yes, he does delve into the obvious identity-cultural link between Christianity and "the West." But for him, the West is NOT one of the civlizations that defines itself by a major world religion. That is a major underlying point in the book - the West's pluralism and secularism.
Third, Huntington does not list the British Caribbean islands as a distinct civilization.
I think that the first point above is quite serious and needs to be corrected in this article.
I deleted the short "Misconceptions" section recently added by 69.249.97.64. The section made two claims. First, the hypothesis that "The clash of civilizations predicts increased numbers of wars" is argued not to be derived from Huntington's theory. Well, the hypothesis is in line with Huntington's own words. In his essay, Huntigton explicitly predicted a change in frequency of conflicts: "conflict between groups in different civilizations will be more frequent, more sustained and more violent than conflicts between groups in the same civilization". Second, 69.249.97.64 argued that Huntington's critics ignore his view that states would remain the key actors in IR. Well, none of the critical studies cited in this article does it. Tankred 00:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm wondering if it's appropriate to put the Toronto Terrorism case in as a "Islam & the West" story, considering that Mubin Shaikh, a conservative Muslim who in his words "did it for Islam," worked as an informant for the RCMP and collected most of the evidence used to bring the suspects to trial.
JB
1:30 Nov 6, 2006
Should we consider war between Croatia and Serbia Western-Orthodox clash, and wars Croatia and Serbia led against Bosnian Muslims Western-Islam and Orthodox-Islam clashes?
While this article is referred to as controversial (and rightly so), it currently lacks any section addressing the actual arguments for and against this theory.
One example of this is the concept of social reflexivity. Given Huntington's background and the seriousness with which this text was taken at upper levels, it would not at all be surprising to consider the possibility that a broad, civilisational perspective WOULD be taken by increasing numbers of people over time. The fact that this could occur promotes the article and book's abilities as persuasive pieces, not analytical fact. A comparison in this regard could be made to the viewpoints of ethical egoists.
On a related note, I think that there are currently too many examples of events that may align with Huntington's theory in that list, there. The criterion for application is simply that violence is, broadly, nationalistic, given Huntington's claims. As such, we don't really need a listing of all or most human conflict linked here.
Would anyone care to clarify this passage please:
What is "conversion by others Universal"? And, what is the predicate of the sentence beginning with the word "Teleological", and where does it stop? Maybe "conversion of others" is meant, and some periods are missing? I don't want to fix it myself cause I'm not sure what is meant.
Thanks
Sukkoth 10:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The Darfur conflict cannot be an example here, as that conflict is between Arabic-speaking Black African Muslims, and non-Arabic speaking Black African Muslims (without prejudice as to the cause of the conflict). See any Wiki article about it, for example, Janjaweed. Therefore, This is not a conflict between Muslims and non-Muslims. Perhaps the cotributor confused it with the conflict in South-Sudan/ Equatoria.
The conflicts in northern Nigeria might be a better example of an Islamic-"African" conflict, although Islamic-Christian would be more accurate.
Sukkoth 10:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I have recently reverted the addition of "Ethinic cleansing in Bangladesh" by User:Sujoyiit (aka 130.126.228.190?). The list of "recent issues" should include articles in Wikipedia. It is not a list of external links. If we start adding external links about all ethnic conflicts in the world, this will become the longest article ever. Moreover, websites are often partisan and they contradict each other. To sum up, I believe the [4] edit put an external link to an inappropriate place of an inappropriate article. Tankred 17:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I differ with user:tankred in that the "recent issues" need not "necessarily" include articles within wikipedia ( although this is mostly the case). The external link is provided "only" for the user reference. Websites can be partisan and contradict but that is for the users to decide which one to accept. Removing edits just because someone doubts authenticity of a source is not a wiki policy. Finally, I disagree that the link is inappropiate since is at the core of "Hindu-Islamic clash" as mentioned in the book (although not this particular case). I expect user who wish to omit my addition to "first settle" the issue with me (user:sujoyiit) by email or talk page instead resorting to unilateral deletions.-- Sujoyiit 18:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Who decides wich conflict will be linked in, and wich not? I don't see clear references, just popular believes, and some ethnic conflicts listed as civilizational clashes, wich are quite constrained to be listed here as a "recent issue". Clash of civilizations is about the clash of civilizations, where civilizaitions are clashing. Like Ukrainian presidental elections, tha israeli-arab conflict, international terrorism, and such. Wars other than the former Yugoslavia's (Kosovo, Croatia vs Serbia) are tipically one of those constrained ones. You misunderstood Huntington? -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 10:06, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
The identity crisis of the 1990s, wich lead to the new order of civilizations
Religions are more important in civilizational clashes, than ethnicity or such.
And some more. -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 11:02, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Like Francis Fukuyama's The End of History and the Last Man wich is really not important to mention. No, the reason, why Huntington wrote this book is not intresting. No. Not. Gosh... -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 00:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Clash of Civilizations/Archive_1 for the archived discussions from prior to this year. Kyle Cronan 05:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I have made a plot of past and projected population by civilization, using Huntington's classification. The data is from the US Census and covers the period 1950-2050. Perhaps this is a bit too much in the way of original research (as I had to decide exactly which countries to put into each civilization), but I wondered if this might be good for the article. One caveat is that as Huntington himself points out, this model is not so useful once you go back to the Cold War era and may not be again in 2050. But it seems to give a pretty good impression of how things are changing presently.
I'd be glad to also post the country lists if people are interested in how this data came about. Here is the image.
Kyle Cronan 05:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Rastinny 11:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Atleast with regards to India. I dont think it does justice to Sikhs, Jains, Bddhists or even India's 150 million Muslims to pegionhole Indian civilization as a "Hindu civilization". Whats more the South East Asian countries decidedly have cosiderable Hindu influence. I know Huntington labels it as such, but the map makes it look as if Wikipedia is endorsing his hypothesis. I mean c'mon you dont need a grossly incorrect map on this article. This isnt Clash of Civilizations of Dummies or something, is it? Amey Aryan DaBrood © 19:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
In fact, India is also marked as a "cleft" coutry. It's muslim pop is considered as part of the Muslim civ. Huntington's map is divided on religions, not real borders. Those are just sometimes match with religious borders. So, I partially agree that the map incorrect. OFF:But this is common. ( Personal attack removed) -- Vince hey, yo! :-) 12:38, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The main problem with the map is that it differs from Huntington's own map (in the book) in quite a few details. Arguably it reflects Huntington's views better than his own map but it involves some interpretation that might be controversial. Christopher Parham (talk) 01:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
There is also a mistake on the map regarding Bosnia and Herzegovina. On the map it is under Orthodox and in the text it says Muslim. In reality is neither Orthodox nor Muslim nor Western. It's a strange kind of mix. 122.162.158.198 12:03, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
As we all know this is a major issue within the Huntington framework.
Even on this wikipedia page the information is carelessly contradictory, as Bosnia and Herzegovina is placed in the Orthodox camp on the map and in the Islamic camp in the text.
I am here to propose a solution.
As we all know Bosnia and Herzegovina is a region particularly relevant to the clash of civilizations concept because the three major groups there, the Serbs (Orthodox), the Bosniaks (Muslim), and the Croats (Catholic) connect their national identity largely with their religions (civilizations). As Huntington observed, this led to a clash of these 3 civilizations and a civil war. The country is now an independent state for the first time in history and we are puzzled as to where to place this country on Huntington's map.
The solution is simple: Bosnia and Herzegovina is divided into 2 distinct entities, The Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Serb Republic (Republika Srpska). Each entity takes up roughly 50% of the geographical area. (see Subdivisions_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina on wikipedia) The population of the eastern region, Republika Srpska, is nearly 90% Serb and thus 90%+ Orthodox. The other entity, The Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is 70% Bosniak and 28% Croat. That second entity may yet see a struggle between the Islamic and Western civilizations, but one thing is clear...
The western borders of the Orthodox Civilization must be drawn at the Republika Srpska, including this entity into the Orthodox world. This is a notion Huntington himself would certainly agree with, and the solution that makes the most sense. Bosnia and Herzegovina is far too divided along civilizational lines to be represented as a whole single entity on the Huntington map. It is Huntington's view that any such country that embodies clashing civilizations will meet the same fate as Yugoslavia itself in the near future: civil war and ultimately partitioning of territory along civilizational lines.
I propose we make this change to both the text and the map, dividing Bosnia and Herzegovina by its distinct entities.
-- 24.150.77.3 23:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I took me quite a while to find this article, being that I was using "Civilisations rather than the American "Civilizations". I'm not a pro at Wikiediting, so could someone put a redirect to this page from the former's spelling? Thanks --AQjosh 14:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I just changed in a slightly bold/choleric action the main article on Samuel P. Huntington. Maybe I should have waited for a reactions on my entry in the talk section Talk:Samuel P. Huntington#Coinage:_The Clash of Civilization.
BUTWhat I cut out now is an unsourced contribution in brackets, that suggests the following influence on the "Clash of Civilization" : (inspired by Polish scientist Feliks Koneczny) My hope is that the author might be around, and strictly it belongs here. LeaNder ( talk) 13:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, Koneczny also divided civilisation into seven types and also argued, that civilisations lead the wars.. But Koneczny divided civilisation not according to language and religion, but according to treatment of law, ethics, church, attitude to private and public spheres of life etc. In Koneczny classification, for example, France is byzantine type of civilisation (high role of state, centralisation, no place for ethics in politics) despite being catholic country. Szopen ( talk) 16:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
We learn a lesson from Harvard clashes. See the historical instances in the following sections. -- KYPark ( talk) 10:54, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
the map/theory is laughable. It has greece painted with the same color as russia and whatever is "at that side of the world" just because of the religion denomination. i suspect the guy is a fanatical christian of a certain denomination seeing only black or white for regions never visited or even cared to read something more than a few sentences about them. greece, the country that gave the roots of the western civilization and the word that names europe. not only this theory is ridiculous, the whole article should be at least renamed to ".. (book)" or ".. (Huntington 's view)" -- Leladax 11:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I find nothing laughable. And you are entitled to your own opinions... however laughable.
-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 ( talk) 10:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate the usefulness of File:Clash of Civilizations world map.png, but there remain some issues:
-- dab (𒁳) 16:16, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
The original map in the source is this one and only this map is corresponds with it. -- Olahus ( talk) 06:46, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
Did Huntington say that Eastern Thrace and Anatolia belong to two different civilizations? Prove he did and I'll your map alone.-- Mttll ( talk) 20:56, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
So you accept it's a technical glitch and you don't think it should be corrected?
Turkey's case is different. It's a glitch like Tsourkpk says. Do you not agree? Do you think the source thinks Eastern Thrace belongs to a different civilization? Please, being neutral doesn't mean acting like robots or zombies.-- Mttll ( talk) 18:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Fine. Just correct that printing error. Apparently that map doesn't recognize lone countries, but that's another topic of discussion.-- Mttll ( talk) 19:08, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I have updated the map of Huntington's major civilizations to more accurately reflect the one from the book. This look about right? Kyle Cronan 08:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll take a look at the book's map tonight and provide some input on this. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Ishvara's identified errors are supported by the book to various degrees; Haiti is the most clear one. (Israel isn't marked as Muslim in Kyle's map.) With countries like Kazakhstan, however, it is not clear that being majority Muslim puts them in the Muslim civilization; Kazakhstan is pretty clearly identified as being politically dominated by its Russian minority. And while the Phillipines are clearly Catholic it's not clear that this puts them in the Western world. In general, Huntington doesn't speak directly to the affiliation of many countries. The nice thing about adopting the same divisions as Huntington's own map is that they are clear and unambiguous. Christopher Parham (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I have done a slow revert on the map again. If anyone objects (Ishvara, are you still around?), please let's discuss it here. Personally, I just don't see how it can be incorrect to use a map that follows exactly what's in the book. Kyle Cronan 19:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
KOREA AND JAPAN ( ALTAIC CULTURAL GROUP). LANGUAGE WISE AND CULTURAL WISE NON-CHINESE SPHERE. MAP IS WRONG. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Korean1Professor ( talk • contribs) 08:27, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Wooah, that is some statement! I would suggest removing this sentence:"The Clash of Civilizations thesis may also be regarded as an example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The ideas of Huntington and Bernard Lewis were already influential among American neoconservative figures such as Vice President Dick Cheney prior to September 11, 2001;[citation needed] Middle East scholar Gilles Kepel (2003) reports that many radical Islamists in the Middle East likewise viewed Huntington's thesis approvingly.". The claim that this theory in itself is the principal cause for conflicts between the different "civilizations" is pretty bold and does need citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.247.238 ( talk) 11:53, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
World politics is entering a new phase, in which the great divisions among humankind and the dominating source of international conflict will be cultural. Civilizations-the highest cultural groupings of people-are differentiated from each other by religion, history, language and tradition. These divisions are deep and increasing in importance. From Yugoslavia to the Middle East to Central Asia, the fault lines of civilizations are the battle lines of the future. In this emerging era of cultural conflict the United States must forge alliances with similar cultures and spread its values wherever possible. With alien civilizations the West must be accommodating if possible, but confrontational if necessary. In the final analysis, however, all civilizations will have to learn to tolerate each other —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.28.27.68 ( talk) 16:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
i'm all for it but you try telling every other person in the world that they have to abandon their culture and way of living for some yet to be determined global civ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.34.27.132 ( talk) 02:50, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
'The slow suicide of the West' by Jorge Majfud, presented an argument against the views of a certain famous Italian journalist (an Italian best seller writer/journalist who is known to have problems with most of the people around the world). While the journalist's venom was mainly targetted against African Muslims, it does not exclude Muslims of different ethnicity. Her argument was based on the premise that west has a open tolerant value system while Islam is repressive and intolerant in doctrine. Jorge Majfud presented the other side of the view with gallant logic.
I have heard many such arguments from intellectuals who on one hand proclaim to be tolerant, rational and logical but on the other hand stand rigidly on jingoistic opinions. Infact those who tout the supremacy of the western rational and progressive values often forget that this was not the case during its entire history until the very recent times. The history of the west is replete with many instances of regressive values (the crusades, the inquistion, slavery, not to mention colonization atrocities) and irrationality.
I suppose the journalist's intolerance of Islam talk volumes of her open minded values. Muslim Immigrants are growing ever more conscious of the image that they carry with them considering that even before they open their mouth, their last name, their attire and skin colour subject them to a prejudiced straitjacket. In the meanwhile, thank god for some sane voices like that of Jorge Majfud. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.99.170.150 ( talk) 01:30, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Malta is counted as being part of the Muslim world. This is certainly incorrect. They are 98% Catholic and are adamently European. Their ethnicity is a mix of Arab (because of repeated invasions throughout history) and Italian (due to proximity), but the Maltese should be counted as part of Western Europe.
212.22.61.71 ( talk) 17:20, 1 May 2009 (UTC)A. F.
Aside from Australia and New Zealand, which have obvious Western roots, has Huntington ever made any formal statements about the nations of the Pacific Ocean? It seems that this region was largely ignored. These countries are generally grouped in with the Western World, but this seems odd when you consider that Huntington considered the English-speaking Caribbean to be a distinct civilization. The linguistic and cultural roots are largely indigenous - Polynesian, Micronesian, Melanesian, and Papuan - rather than Western. The only real criteria I can see that would make them Western is the prevalence of Christianity, but even that is often highly sychretized with indigenous rituals such as the ceremonial use of kava. Western influence through colonization and Christianization does not seem to make Sub-Saharan Africa part of the West either, for example... -- 76.98.148.217 ( talk) 13:58, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
Why Turkey is green? It is a lone country in Huntington's map.--Martianmister (talk) 11:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, somebody should correct that. I will remove the map, it's misleading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.106.169.123 ( talk) 19:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I have restored Turkey and reverted the map to its earliest version which I think is the most correct version. Because in Huntington's criticism, the Turkish culture is the mixture between Islam and Western, a lone country like Japan or Ethiopia with its owned culture. As you can see, the map was fixed by some Muslims. That is nosense to say that Turkey is the same sort with other Muslim cultures, it's not totally right, at least if according to the original criticism of Huntington. I also think that Turkey is mixed, not very Muslim culture at all. Angelo De La Paz ( talk) 03:33, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Turkey is supposed to have a unique color in that map. Please fix that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fnr Kllrb ( talk • contribs) 05:43, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
"a lone country like Japan or Ethiopia with its owned culture."
Don't you understand that EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has their own separate culture? The lumping in the map is simply ridiculous. Intranetusa ( talk) 04:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
In the third paragraph "it has been claimed" is tagged as "weasel words". Reference (#8) is provided and the text as written seems appropriate. Labelling the ideas following in the paragraph a "claim" is correct; neither clear-cut fact or an overt falsehood. I suggest removing the "weasel" tag. JAB
I majored in International Relations and Western World Studies! What is interesting is that the author sperates Latin America as their own civilization, If I can recall it was Europeans that colonized all of Latin America. The French, English, Spanish, Portuguese and Dutch. Even in Canada is way different than the US. Quebec is official in French. Quebec considers themselves part of Latin America. But the world "Latin" by itself is too contraversial as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.2.137.103 ( talk) 06:30, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
In Canada, on the other hand, the Metis are relatively small portion of the Francophone population, while the larger Quebecois are more solidly Western. Quebec's indigenous people are marginalized by the mainstream, having only minor influences that are much under-appreciated. In opinion, however, Argentina and Uruguay should also be counted as "Western", apart from the rest of Latin America due to their overwhelmingly European flavor and their lack of pronounced indigenous or African influence. -- 74.220.50.16 ( talk) 09:38, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
The article contains right now this passage:
"Huntington's geopolitical model, especially the structures for North Africa and Eurasia, is largely derived from the "Intermediate Region" geopolitical model first formulated by Dimitri Kitsikis and published in 1978."
There is a reference to Greek and Turkish edit ions of Kitsikis' book but it's quiteunclear to me whether Huntington has indeed been influenced in any significant way by Kitsikis. Did Huntington ever read Kitsikis' books, much less derived his theory from them? This latter claim is somewhat dubious, unless backed up with a reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bazuz ( talk • contribs) 22:00, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
There is a problem with both the map and the division of the civilization(s) especially as it pertains to the case of Bosnia, as part of the former Yugoslavia. Huntington fairly clearly noted that Bosnia was one of those locations where, according to him, civilizations clashed precisely because of its fusion of Western (Catholic), Islamic and Orthodox influences. As such, to simply lump Bosnia into the category of "Orthodox" civilization is missing the entire point of his thesis, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.246.52.131 ( talk) 22:09, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Huntington writes in Clash of Civilizations that instead of belonging to one of the "major" civilizations, Ethiopia and Haiti are "lone" countries, and that Israel could be considered a unique state with its own civilization.
Therefore, imho, these three countries should appear in a different color in the map. It is true that Ethiopia, Haiti and Israel are not singled out in the original map (the one printed on the book), but we'd rather give priority to the text over the map. Sebasbronzini ( talk) 19:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.149.74 ( talk) 02:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
The article's thesis is ridiculous concerning my country. We have absolutely no real ties with Russia at the moment. The OPPOSITE is true. There have been talks with Turkey and Russia after the "Georgia Incident" last year "If you help us with Georgia, we'll help you with Cyprus" is what Russia said to Turkey. Even if the situation is not black and white - a deal with oil by last government comes to mind - there's certainly no real certainty of ties. If you have some ties with someone and some differences, the same may be true with others. This RELIGIOUS-centric view of the world has failed. It's not the 19th century anymore.-- 194.219.255.153 ( talk) 15:40, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
how can france be described as a cleft between sub-saharan-africa and france, using french guyana as an example. french guyana's state of development might be discussed, but its geographic location is definitely not in africa, but in south america. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.20.227 ( talk) 10:13, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
IF i am not wrong,Bhutan is a predominantly Buddhist country.Granted that it has pseudo-suzerainty with India - a.k.a Hindu civilization but that foes not stop it from labeling it as a "Hindu civilization"please help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.219.225.43 ( talk) 13:49, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Can we change the map in the article to this version? It is much easier to read. 89.188.103.210 ( talk) 10:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
não é oeste vs resto o oeste se expandiu na zona de outras estas estão a retomar seu espaço por exemplo a longitude Americana já em outros casos a civilização islamica tenta recuperar o tempo que perdeu com o oeste se expandindo e atrapalhando sua expansão por exemplo no sul da asia onde ja controlavam quase tudo pouco antes do oeste chegar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.64.9.219 ( talk) 22:47, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
"Guyana and Suriname (cleft between Hindu and Sub-Saharan African)" Is that really an accurate description of what Huntington said in the book? It seems ridiculous to me, but has been in the article for a long time (I found the same phrasing all the way back to 2009). -- Khajidha ( talk) 21:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
this section has had no sources and a tag for practically 2 years now. If there is no source for this original research/synthesis then it doesnt belong here.( Lihaas ( talk) 11:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
This section has no sources and is purely based on the editor's speculation. I think that this section should be deleted
Talibalim (
talk)
18:04, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
This section lists a number of bullet points that it claims Huntington attributes to the clash of Islam and the west. It says that both Islam and Christianity are missionary religions, universalist (all or nothing) and teleological. I see nothing in the article that states these things but I find it an interesting comment so I was wondering if someone could source this for me?
Thanks, Pmychang — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.198.213.117 ( talk) 05:32, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
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Considering this is the second most assigned textbook in Ivy League schools after Plato's Republic, I think the article needs to spend more time talking about its impact. It should also be rated higher on its relative importance scales. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/03/what-ivy-league-students-are-reading-that-you-arent/ - 2605:E000:1714:C080:F968:95EF:F0F8:EE22 ( talk) 22:02, 18 December 2016 (UTC)
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The picture used to accompany the article does not appear to be of the book The Clash of Civilizations, as stated, but rather of the edition of Foreign Affairs magazine in which Huntingdon originally proposed his theory. Will I just go ahead and make the appropriate changes or does anyone have any objections? Brooklyn Eagle ( talk) 00:04, 21 September 2017 (UTC)