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If I have made my point clear by now (i.e., that cladistics is inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically erroneous), I would like to proceed to the next step requiring that this information is included in the beginning of the article about it. The reason for this choice of position is that it simplifies understanding of the apparent inconsistencies in the article, like, for example, the definitions of the terms:
- A clade is an ancestor species and all of its descendents, - A monophyletic group is a clade, - A paraphyletic group is a monophyletic group that excludes some of the descendants
where anyone with clear eyes can see that the definition of monophyletic group equalizes it with clade, and the definition of paraphyletic group equalizes it with monophyletic group, and thus also with clade, at the same claiming a difference between paraphyletic group and clade in "some" and "all". The definitions are simply not distinctions, but, on the contrary, a confusion of the concept clade with the concept monophyletic groups. The truth is that this mess arises because cladistics does not understand conceptualization of phylogenies (i.e., dichotomously propagating processes), and that it leaves out the concept holophyletic groups (see Envall in the Criticisms section).
Inconsistencies like these are much easier to understand if one knows from the beginning that cladistics per definition is inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically wrong. It is simply founded on an inconsistent definition that two things in a row equals a single thing, and thus that several equals single, and on the top of this that such several-single things can be defined by properties. It confuses one and many, and thing and kind, that is, everything that possibly can be confused, by definitions. In the light of this knowledge, inconsistencies like the confused definitions above is just what one can expect. (The cladistic battle is to "realize" lines of descent by defining the abstract as the concrete. It piles definitions on the top of each other trying to nail its abstractions in reality, at the same time trying to hinder the concrete from being nailed in the abstract, In practice, it means turning two into one by definitions, like turning me and C.Fred into one by definitions. It is, of course, just as impossible as eating a cake and keeping it). I thus suggest that a warning about cladistics' inherent inconsistency is included in the beginning of the article about it. Consist (presently at 83.254.20.53 ( talk) 10:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC))
Oppose merger. absurd since both terms can evolve into huge articles. the relationship is obvious. Plumpurple ( talk) 14:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This is a huge mess. We have huge overlap between
clade,
cladistics,
phylogenetic nomenclature,
monophyly,
Phylocode and possibly other articles. I think the best way to fix this is going to be to use a 'summary style' approach. A main article, probably cladistics, should give a brief section-length overview of all these topics. Each section should have a '
Main article' link to a more in-depth discussion. We might usefully separate historical background more clearly from the status quo, perhaps by creating articles such as 'history of phylogentic nomenclature' if they become necessary. Does this approach sound suitable? We have to do something to deconvolute our coverage of the topic.
Martin (
Smith609 –
Talk)
06:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I have the reference listed at the head of the table in .pdf. It is a published paper. It does not have the points listed in the table. There is no other reference by or near the table that tells where the info came from. Christian Skeptic ( talk) 05:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Reminder: Please proof-read your edits before saving them. This is an old article on an important topic, so please take some time.
Recently, an edit was made in the Intro paragraph (!) resulting in the sentence "It differs from heavy emphasis on objective, quantitative analysis". Huh? I fixed that, but please use more caution in the future.-- Noleander ( talk) 15:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
As it stands, this article confounds "cladistic" and Linnaean classification. What is being contrasted is not "cladistics versus Linnaean" but "Phylocode versus Linnaean." Fact is: any classification that contains monophyletic groups and is logically consistent with the underlying phylogeny is a "cladistic" classification. it may be Linnaean, an indented list, a classification that uses numerical prefixes, or a system that uses Phylocode. The article also confounds "Linnaean and evolutionary taxonomic classifications." A Linnaean classification that contains known paraphyletic groups is an evolutionary classification. A Linnaean classification that contains only monophyletic groups is a cladistic classification. In short, this article is in serious need of revision. Eowiley ( talk) 19:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC).
-- Aranae 02:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Eyu100( t| fr| Version 1.0 Editorial Team) 15:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The article at present seems to suggest that cladistics and the PhyloCode are inseparably linked; that all cladists are inherently advocates of the PhyloCode. For instance, the link for "phylogenetic systematics" in the introductory sentence discussing Hennig leads one instead to phylogenetic nomenclature, i.e., the PhyloCode; Hennig never advocated such a system, but the naive reader would likely be led to think otherwise. Later, we encounter the sentence: "These traditional approaches, still in use by some researchers (especially in works intended for a more general audience[23]) use several fixed levels of a hierarchy, such as kingdom, phylum, class, order, and family. Cladistics does not use those terms, because one of the fundamental premises of cladistics is that the evolutionary tree is so deep and so complex that it is inadvisable to set a fixed number of levels." This is simply false. Advocates of abandoning ranks are "cladists" in only the broadest possible sense, and in that broad sense they are a small (but admittedly vocal) minority. Similarly, the figure demonstrating different PhyloCode approaches for delimiting taxa has no place here. Unfortunately, there are so many errors embedded throughout this article that I am not sure I can fix them without simply rewriting the whole thing! Paalexan ( talk) 19:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Apomorph redirects here, but is not even mentioned in the article! 24.14.159.149 ( talk) 05:39, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
The article says of phenetic classification that
I think this exaggerates the importance of phenetic classification as a method in wide use (it certainly had an important intellectual influence). I do not recall a single year from about 1963 (when Sokal and Sneath's Principles of Numerical Taxonomy was published) to 1980 (when phylogenetic systematics was becoming dominant) that phenetic classifications were more common than other approaches such as Mayr and Simpson's "evolutionary systematics". I am also intrigued by the idea that distance matrix methods are part of "cladistics" as they are also frequently denounced as "phenetic". Which goes to show how muddled much thinking is on this topic. Felsenst ( talk) 21:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
As evidenced by the size of the article and the number of related articles and references, this is a big subject, hence the main article should be a summary with links to detailed sections. I suggest that the article be broken up into sections, with summary on the main page, as per:
Nbarth ( email) ( talk) 01:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I cut this out. I know, Tallapellet, this is not going to endear me to you. Nevertheless this is my perception in good conscience.
Tallapellet is a programmer and a WP editor; in fact, he worked on this article. He has his own web site, in which he does not identify himself, unless Tallapellet is his real name. Unfortunately the poster is part of the personal web site. With a click you can get photos of him (my what a handsome man), house plans, blogs, and his personal views of religion. The deciding factor in my mind, however, was the fact that he invites us to buy it online. We can download it for free, he says, if we take it to the copy center and pay for them to print it, or we can purchase it from the web site he specifies. Well, Tallapellet. Wonderful poster, great work of art. If this were not WP I would urge anyone interested to buy it forthwith. My walls don't have room for it. However, this is WP. In my judgement this is a personal and commercial site and is really part of his blogs and other stuff. Tallapellet, you well know this type of material is not allowed on WP. What do do you say, hey, how abut playing by the rules! I don't know what your rank is on WP but if you use it to override me I will object on grounds of abuse of power. By the way I do think it is a worthy and saleable poster and I am glad you contribute to WP. Dave ( talk) 15:36, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
"the first vertebrate is the common ancestor of all vertebrates" There seems to be a confusion here between taxa and individuals. There was no first vertebrate. And, there was no first human, no first chordate, etc. This is beginning to sound like Adam and Eve. As dearly as I love the myth, it is only a figure of speech. In considering fossils, no one ever has to deal with the problem of placing the dividing line in the middle of a continuous sequence of fossils, each very slightly different, so as to say, on this side of the line is one species, and on that, another. Fossils are always plucked out of their sequences by chance so as to appear totally discontinuous; in fact exactly what the sequence was can almost never be reconstructed. Have you not been listening to the critics of evolution? Suppose in a population of individuals gradually acquiring more and more distinctive individual variations a certain number cross some defined threshold for meeting the criteria of a new species. Statistically speaking it is most unlikely that the threshold would be crossed by one individual first. But supposing it was. He would not be related to any of the other individuals crossing it subsequently, unless you hypothesize that he and he alone produced this variation that exceeded the threshold. Well, suppose a single mutation occurred instead of the thousands and hundreds of thousands that regularly occur and that one was so advantageous the individual was able to multiply and transmit that mutation. There still wouldn't be any supposed clade of individuals as they would have other ancestors, unless you suppose asexual reproduction. All clades of individuals would have to be polyphyletic.
Cladistics cannot possibly refer to individuals. "Monophyletic" etc refer to phyletic, which are groups of a kind, not to single organisms. Suppose it did. How could you ever find any clades? Human descent is not actually a tree, it is a matrix. There is no such thing as a single ancestor to a group of individuals. Our family trees are cuturally defined, not biologically defined. There may have been a single person of my name, but at that time I must have been equally related to everyone in the population in which he lived. You know, the animals went two by two into the ark, two elephants, two giraffes. Even Adam and Eve were two people. How does that fit statements such as "the first vertebrate?" You mean, the first two vertebrates?
This language is really quite confusing to the public. They are very likely to conceive of the first vertebrate slithering around, perhaps named Charlie. Exactly how the second vertebrate got here would be a bit of a puzzle, or if one did get here at the other end of the world, how did the first and second find each other? So, I am going to alter the language to such an extent it is clear to the public "the first vertebrate" is really "the first taxon of vertebrates". While we are on the subject, let's consider the manuscripts. The method is analogous, not the same. Manuscripts are individual, not classes. Now, if I err, someone be sure and correct me. Dave ( talk) 03:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
This purports to present an advantage and disadvantage of the Cladistic method vis a vis the tree of life. But, the reference on the advantage does not mention the advantage and the disadvantage has been cited for a reference. Nor can I find it explicitly on the Internet. However, if we read a little further, we find that the whole topic is not only covered but referenced under the table of advantages and disadvantages! Presumably support of the reference there is implicit. Is there any point in repeating the material? I think not. But, we definitely want to mention the complexity of the tree of life under that title and as far as I can see at that location. That complexity is mainly fractal evolution and Gould's punctuated idea. The reference given is not as good as Albert on fractals so I want to switch to Albert and leave the assessment to later. Dave ( talk) 08:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
This is not a cladogram. No lineages of distribution are being reconstructed here. The Linux article says nothing at all about it. The source is a programmer's personal site. He has lost his job, he says, and he would like some help with a donation (so would I for that matter). All he does is list releases of Linux software. That's a list not a cladogram. Whether innovated by him on the spot or in use as a vogue word among software people, this is not a true use of pairwise comparison and no graphic cladogram is the outcome. Whew. Sorry, buddy, I sympathize with your economic situation, and with everyone's economic situation, and if I can't sympathize with that than I sympathize with us all for one problem or another, but you still can't use WP to raise money for yourself. Best wishes and best of luck. Dave ( talk) 10:21, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
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This is a tough call. It does contain some biographical info on Hennig and a blurb for their magazine, but no information useful in figuring out cladistics. It does plug the magazine and it gives meeting and event information with various chatty blog site material. Now, the magazine has its own article accessed through a link at the top of the page and Hennig has his own article also, so we don;t need it for that. I judge this not to be an encyclopedic source for cladistics. Dave ( talk) 13:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
The current definition of classifying based on shared ancestry is both deeply wrong and uninformative. Ancestry cannot be known in advance of cladistic analysis, so it cannot be said to be a basis for it. Cladistics is distinguished from other fields by classifying according to monophyletic groups (hence cladistics), which are based on shared derived (or unique) features—synapomorphies. The concept of grouping by synapomorphy, and only by synapomorphy, is the novel and distinguishing contribution of cladistics. The notion of grouping by ancestry is not novel to cladistics, and is in fact a better characterization of evolutionary taxonomy. Secondly, cladistics does not attempt to "construct a tree representing the ancestry of organisms and species." In fact, cladograms are completely silent on the question of ancestors, as all taxa are grouped hierarchically as sister taxa. I think we should restore my edits to the first paragraph from several months ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Braz ( talk • contribs) 08:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
An article such as this could have a bibliography hundreds of items long. In general the topic of interest is the article not the complete bibiography (unless the article topic begins "Bibliography of ...."). So, whatever supports that belongs, whatever does not, does not. I'm removing the unused biblio items to here. Naturally there might be disagreements, in which case put the item you feel should be in there back. Dave ( talk) 11:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
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link)The cladogram illustrating polyphyly, monophyly etc is nice looking, but it's inaccurate. Pisces is not a clade. I don't want to remove the picture until there's another one to take it's place, but I don't know how to edit images. -- Danger ( talk) 16:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree. Pisces is not monophyletic, it's not a good inclusion in an article talking about cladistics. Moreover, this picture is maybe difficult to understand. Using a separate picture to illustrate monophyly, paraphyly and polyphyly could make the article clearer. Naldo 911 ( talk) 13:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
In the version of 12:47, 4 December 2010, if the text relating to the terms Monophyletic, Paraphyletic and Polyphyletic in the Terminology section is meant to offer definitions, then they are either unclear or incorrect.
To be fair, I think it's very difficult to define in words what these terms mean in their current consensus usage (partly because authors aren't, in my view, consistent, and partly because they often don't give their definitions). However, what is written here is very problematic. I'm a bit reluctant to make editing changes without some input from others. There's also the difficulty of finding source references with clear and consistent definitions. Peter coxhead ( talk) 22:34, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Personnaly, I'll definite :
N@ldo ( talk) 11:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I agree too. The definitions based on the notion of common ancestor are rather confusing.
"All members of a monophyletic group are more closely related between them than they are with any other taxon situated outside the group. A monophyletic group is defined by at least a synapomorphy (= a character at a derived state)." Maybe we can also add that some will call them holophyletic groups.
I took these definitions from diverse lectures and sources, including Darlu & Tassy 1983 (rather old, but still valid for such definitions). N@ldo ( talk) 22:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
The example, I think, is confusing. True, the backbone is a plesiomorphy if you are inside the Vertebrates. But no matrix can group birds and mammals as a paraphyletic group if you use backbone as a character at a plesiomorphic state, because there is no apomorphic state for the same character in the group considered. As an example of symplesiomorphy which leads to paraphyletic groups, we can use for example the pluribasal member. Inside the Vertebrates (or at least, the Craniata), it is a plesiomorphic character. The apomorphic state for Sarcopterygii will be "absence of pluribasal member", or "monobasal member". As a consequence, a group defined by the character state "pluribasal member" (Chondrichtyes + Actinopterygii if you don't include fossils) will be paraphyletic, as it excludes Sarcopterygii. Glad that this discussion had made the article better ! N@ldo ( talk) 21:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
In a discussion with user Peter coxhead we came to the conclusion that the bird-dinosaur example is not entirely appropriate. If no one objects, I'll remove it. Does anyone know of another case, easily understandable to the general public, in which homology might have been assumed because of a presupposed phylogeny?-- MWAK ( talk) 14:00, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
I have determined that the Clade article and the Clades section of this article contain basically the same information, therefore making it pointless for Clade to have its own article. There is really no way to expand information on the term so as to necessitate a separate main article, since any discussions on clades refers directly to cladistics. This is just a heads up to anyone wondering where the Clade article went. Cadiomals ( talk) 03:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
In view of mounting evidence to the contrary (such as this source), to imply that there is a clade containing birds and lizards but not turtles violates WP:NPOV. The diagram in the Clades section therefore needs revision. I suggest eliminating the Testudines side branch, eliminating the Reptilia and Diapsida legends, and specifying Sauropsida as the node for the Lepidosauria branch. If five side branches is not considered enough, one for the Hyperoartia (lampreys) could be added. Peter M. Brown ( talk) 21:04, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Part of the problem is that terms like "paraphyly" and "polyphyly" aren't used consistently in the literature; they may include or exclude hypothetical ancestors. The commonest uses of these terms in papers that I read are to classify groups of terminal nodes in cladograms produced by either morphological or molecular cladistic analyses. In such cases there is no question of ancestors being included. (This is well-discussed by Podani (2010) – reference here.) So if you use the term "paraphyly" solely in terms of the terminal nodes of this cladogram then traditional monkeys are a paraphyletic group. Whether or not they are paraphyletic if ancestors are included isn't clear to me; you would have to define "monkeys" as all the whole simian clade (i.e. down to its earliest ancestor) minus the whole hominoid clade. I don't think that the traditional term "monkey" would be used in the kind of source which discussed the fossil ancestors. Peter coxhead ( talk) 17:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi Peter Brown - you asked if you were missing something in removing the sentence "The fact that ostriches and rheas both have four limbs does not provide any support for putting them into a separate group of 'flightless birds'." Perhaps. Isn't it an important concept that while ostriches and rheas share this character, it provides no evidence of their being closely related, because the trait is plesiomorphic for the larger clade containing those species - tetrapoda?
I am removing some commas recently added to the article. All are permitted by the rules, but many are optional and interfere with the flow of the text. For example, the edit added a comma after each occurrence of "e.g."; while this is always permitted, it is generally optional. The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation, for example, uses
as an example of acceptable usage; a comma is admissible after "e.g.", but it is not necessary. Peter M. Brown ( talk) 12:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Argh. This whole series of articles was, and largely still is, a mess. So many articles on so narrow topics, all of them repeating large chunks of the same stuff (independently written, not copied & pasted!) that only fits one of them... Cladogram explains phylogenetic analysis at considerable length, the very topic of the Phylogenetics article, when a cladogram is simply the result of a phylogenetic analysis...
I have tried to begin unraveling this mess. Yesterday, I extricated Phylogenetic nomenclature from it; that was fairly easy, because I had created that article independently of the mess. I also restricted Clade to what it says on the tin; that article was relatively short.
Today, I:
The article as it now is does not have enough references. I'll try to add more, but I won't have much time in the coming weeks. Feel free to scoop me!
Now on to Phylogenetics... but I won't do much there, it's late.
David Marjanović ( talk) 18:19, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
According to Cladistics#Example, Linnaean taxonomy defines the Tetrapoda "morphologically as vertebrates with four limbs (as well as animals with four-limbed ancestors, such as snakes)." The definition is not morphological if it includes the part in parentheses, which brings in the matter of ancestry. Without the parentheses, however, it is inadequate because it excludes snakes, moas, etc. Peter M. Brown ( talk) 17:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
If I have made my point clear by now (i.e., that cladistics is inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically erroneous), I would like to proceed to the next step requiring that this information is included in the beginning of the article about it. The reason for this choice of position is that it simplifies understanding of the apparent inconsistencies in the article, like, for example, the definitions of the terms:
- A clade is an ancestor species and all of its descendents, - A monophyletic group is a clade, - A paraphyletic group is a monophyletic group that excludes some of the descendants
where anyone with clear eyes can see that the definition of monophyletic group equalizes it with clade, and the definition of paraphyletic group equalizes it with monophyletic group, and thus also with clade, at the same claiming a difference between paraphyletic group and clade in "some" and "all". The definitions are simply not distinctions, but, on the contrary, a confusion of the concept clade with the concept monophyletic groups. The truth is that this mess arises because cladistics does not understand conceptualization of phylogenies (i.e., dichotomously propagating processes), and that it leaves out the concept holophyletic groups (see Envall in the Criticisms section).
Inconsistencies like these are much easier to understand if one knows from the beginning that cladistics per definition is inconsistent, self-contradictory and empirically wrong. It is simply founded on an inconsistent definition that two things in a row equals a single thing, and thus that several equals single, and on the top of this that such several-single things can be defined by properties. It confuses one and many, and thing and kind, that is, everything that possibly can be confused, by definitions. In the light of this knowledge, inconsistencies like the confused definitions above is just what one can expect. (The cladistic battle is to "realize" lines of descent by defining the abstract as the concrete. It piles definitions on the top of each other trying to nail its abstractions in reality, at the same time trying to hinder the concrete from being nailed in the abstract, In practice, it means turning two into one by definitions, like turning me and C.Fred into one by definitions. It is, of course, just as impossible as eating a cake and keeping it). I thus suggest that a warning about cladistics' inherent inconsistency is included in the beginning of the article about it. Consist (presently at 83.254.20.53 ( talk) 10:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC))
Oppose merger. absurd since both terms can evolve into huge articles. the relationship is obvious. Plumpurple ( talk) 14:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
This is a huge mess. We have huge overlap between
clade,
cladistics,
phylogenetic nomenclature,
monophyly,
Phylocode and possibly other articles. I think the best way to fix this is going to be to use a 'summary style' approach. A main article, probably cladistics, should give a brief section-length overview of all these topics. Each section should have a '
Main article' link to a more in-depth discussion. We might usefully separate historical background more clearly from the status quo, perhaps by creating articles such as 'history of phylogentic nomenclature' if they become necessary. Does this approach sound suitable? We have to do something to deconvolute our coverage of the topic.
Martin (
Smith609 –
Talk)
06:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
I have the reference listed at the head of the table in .pdf. It is a published paper. It does not have the points listed in the table. There is no other reference by or near the table that tells where the info came from. Christian Skeptic ( talk) 05:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Reminder: Please proof-read your edits before saving them. This is an old article on an important topic, so please take some time.
Recently, an edit was made in the Intro paragraph (!) resulting in the sentence "It differs from heavy emphasis on objective, quantitative analysis". Huh? I fixed that, but please use more caution in the future.-- Noleander ( talk) 15:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
As it stands, this article confounds "cladistic" and Linnaean classification. What is being contrasted is not "cladistics versus Linnaean" but "Phylocode versus Linnaean." Fact is: any classification that contains monophyletic groups and is logically consistent with the underlying phylogeny is a "cladistic" classification. it may be Linnaean, an indented list, a classification that uses numerical prefixes, or a system that uses Phylocode. The article also confounds "Linnaean and evolutionary taxonomic classifications." A Linnaean classification that contains known paraphyletic groups is an evolutionary classification. A Linnaean classification that contains only monophyletic groups is a cladistic classification. In short, this article is in serious need of revision. Eowiley ( talk) 19:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC).
-- Aranae 02:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Eyu100( t| fr| Version 1.0 Editorial Team) 15:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
The article at present seems to suggest that cladistics and the PhyloCode are inseparably linked; that all cladists are inherently advocates of the PhyloCode. For instance, the link for "phylogenetic systematics" in the introductory sentence discussing Hennig leads one instead to phylogenetic nomenclature, i.e., the PhyloCode; Hennig never advocated such a system, but the naive reader would likely be led to think otherwise. Later, we encounter the sentence: "These traditional approaches, still in use by some researchers (especially in works intended for a more general audience[23]) use several fixed levels of a hierarchy, such as kingdom, phylum, class, order, and family. Cladistics does not use those terms, because one of the fundamental premises of cladistics is that the evolutionary tree is so deep and so complex that it is inadvisable to set a fixed number of levels." This is simply false. Advocates of abandoning ranks are "cladists" in only the broadest possible sense, and in that broad sense they are a small (but admittedly vocal) minority. Similarly, the figure demonstrating different PhyloCode approaches for delimiting taxa has no place here. Unfortunately, there are so many errors embedded throughout this article that I am not sure I can fix them without simply rewriting the whole thing! Paalexan ( talk) 19:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Apomorph redirects here, but is not even mentioned in the article! 24.14.159.149 ( talk) 05:39, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
The article says of phenetic classification that
I think this exaggerates the importance of phenetic classification as a method in wide use (it certainly had an important intellectual influence). I do not recall a single year from about 1963 (when Sokal and Sneath's Principles of Numerical Taxonomy was published) to 1980 (when phylogenetic systematics was becoming dominant) that phenetic classifications were more common than other approaches such as Mayr and Simpson's "evolutionary systematics". I am also intrigued by the idea that distance matrix methods are part of "cladistics" as they are also frequently denounced as "phenetic". Which goes to show how muddled much thinking is on this topic. Felsenst ( talk) 21:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
As evidenced by the size of the article and the number of related articles and references, this is a big subject, hence the main article should be a summary with links to detailed sections. I suggest that the article be broken up into sections, with summary on the main page, as per:
Nbarth ( email) ( talk) 01:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I cut this out. I know, Tallapellet, this is not going to endear me to you. Nevertheless this is my perception in good conscience.
Tallapellet is a programmer and a WP editor; in fact, he worked on this article. He has his own web site, in which he does not identify himself, unless Tallapellet is his real name. Unfortunately the poster is part of the personal web site. With a click you can get photos of him (my what a handsome man), house plans, blogs, and his personal views of religion. The deciding factor in my mind, however, was the fact that he invites us to buy it online. We can download it for free, he says, if we take it to the copy center and pay for them to print it, or we can purchase it from the web site he specifies. Well, Tallapellet. Wonderful poster, great work of art. If this were not WP I would urge anyone interested to buy it forthwith. My walls don't have room for it. However, this is WP. In my judgement this is a personal and commercial site and is really part of his blogs and other stuff. Tallapellet, you well know this type of material is not allowed on WP. What do do you say, hey, how abut playing by the rules! I don't know what your rank is on WP but if you use it to override me I will object on grounds of abuse of power. By the way I do think it is a worthy and saleable poster and I am glad you contribute to WP. Dave ( talk) 15:36, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
"the first vertebrate is the common ancestor of all vertebrates" There seems to be a confusion here between taxa and individuals. There was no first vertebrate. And, there was no first human, no first chordate, etc. This is beginning to sound like Adam and Eve. As dearly as I love the myth, it is only a figure of speech. In considering fossils, no one ever has to deal with the problem of placing the dividing line in the middle of a continuous sequence of fossils, each very slightly different, so as to say, on this side of the line is one species, and on that, another. Fossils are always plucked out of their sequences by chance so as to appear totally discontinuous; in fact exactly what the sequence was can almost never be reconstructed. Have you not been listening to the critics of evolution? Suppose in a population of individuals gradually acquiring more and more distinctive individual variations a certain number cross some defined threshold for meeting the criteria of a new species. Statistically speaking it is most unlikely that the threshold would be crossed by one individual first. But supposing it was. He would not be related to any of the other individuals crossing it subsequently, unless you hypothesize that he and he alone produced this variation that exceeded the threshold. Well, suppose a single mutation occurred instead of the thousands and hundreds of thousands that regularly occur and that one was so advantageous the individual was able to multiply and transmit that mutation. There still wouldn't be any supposed clade of individuals as they would have other ancestors, unless you suppose asexual reproduction. All clades of individuals would have to be polyphyletic.
Cladistics cannot possibly refer to individuals. "Monophyletic" etc refer to phyletic, which are groups of a kind, not to single organisms. Suppose it did. How could you ever find any clades? Human descent is not actually a tree, it is a matrix. There is no such thing as a single ancestor to a group of individuals. Our family trees are cuturally defined, not biologically defined. There may have been a single person of my name, but at that time I must have been equally related to everyone in the population in which he lived. You know, the animals went two by two into the ark, two elephants, two giraffes. Even Adam and Eve were two people. How does that fit statements such as "the first vertebrate?" You mean, the first two vertebrates?
This language is really quite confusing to the public. They are very likely to conceive of the first vertebrate slithering around, perhaps named Charlie. Exactly how the second vertebrate got here would be a bit of a puzzle, or if one did get here at the other end of the world, how did the first and second find each other? So, I am going to alter the language to such an extent it is clear to the public "the first vertebrate" is really "the first taxon of vertebrates". While we are on the subject, let's consider the manuscripts. The method is analogous, not the same. Manuscripts are individual, not classes. Now, if I err, someone be sure and correct me. Dave ( talk) 03:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
This purports to present an advantage and disadvantage of the Cladistic method vis a vis the tree of life. But, the reference on the advantage does not mention the advantage and the disadvantage has been cited for a reference. Nor can I find it explicitly on the Internet. However, if we read a little further, we find that the whole topic is not only covered but referenced under the table of advantages and disadvantages! Presumably support of the reference there is implicit. Is there any point in repeating the material? I think not. But, we definitely want to mention the complexity of the tree of life under that title and as far as I can see at that location. That complexity is mainly fractal evolution and Gould's punctuated idea. The reference given is not as good as Albert on fractals so I want to switch to Albert and leave the assessment to later. Dave ( talk) 08:09, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
This is not a cladogram. No lineages of distribution are being reconstructed here. The Linux article says nothing at all about it. The source is a programmer's personal site. He has lost his job, he says, and he would like some help with a donation (so would I for that matter). All he does is list releases of Linux software. That's a list not a cladogram. Whether innovated by him on the spot or in use as a vogue word among software people, this is not a true use of pairwise comparison and no graphic cladogram is the outcome. Whew. Sorry, buddy, I sympathize with your economic situation, and with everyone's economic situation, and if I can't sympathize with that than I sympathize with us all for one problem or another, but you still can't use WP to raise money for yourself. Best wishes and best of luck. Dave ( talk) 10:21, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
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This is a tough call. It does contain some biographical info on Hennig and a blurb for their magazine, but no information useful in figuring out cladistics. It does plug the magazine and it gives meeting and event information with various chatty blog site material. Now, the magazine has its own article accessed through a link at the top of the page and Hennig has his own article also, so we don;t need it for that. I judge this not to be an encyclopedic source for cladistics. Dave ( talk) 13:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
The current definition of classifying based on shared ancestry is both deeply wrong and uninformative. Ancestry cannot be known in advance of cladistic analysis, so it cannot be said to be a basis for it. Cladistics is distinguished from other fields by classifying according to monophyletic groups (hence cladistics), which are based on shared derived (or unique) features—synapomorphies. The concept of grouping by synapomorphy, and only by synapomorphy, is the novel and distinguishing contribution of cladistics. The notion of grouping by ancestry is not novel to cladistics, and is in fact a better characterization of evolutionary taxonomy. Secondly, cladistics does not attempt to "construct a tree representing the ancestry of organisms and species." In fact, cladograms are completely silent on the question of ancestors, as all taxa are grouped hierarchically as sister taxa. I think we should restore my edits to the first paragraph from several months ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Braz ( talk • contribs) 08:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
An article such as this could have a bibliography hundreds of items long. In general the topic of interest is the article not the complete bibiography (unless the article topic begins "Bibliography of ...."). So, whatever supports that belongs, whatever does not, does not. I'm removing the unused biblio items to here. Naturally there might be disagreements, in which case put the item you feel should be in there back. Dave ( talk) 11:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
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link)The cladogram illustrating polyphyly, monophyly etc is nice looking, but it's inaccurate. Pisces is not a clade. I don't want to remove the picture until there's another one to take it's place, but I don't know how to edit images. -- Danger ( talk) 16:09, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree. Pisces is not monophyletic, it's not a good inclusion in an article talking about cladistics. Moreover, this picture is maybe difficult to understand. Using a separate picture to illustrate monophyly, paraphyly and polyphyly could make the article clearer. Naldo 911 ( talk) 13:45, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
In the version of 12:47, 4 December 2010, if the text relating to the terms Monophyletic, Paraphyletic and Polyphyletic in the Terminology section is meant to offer definitions, then they are either unclear or incorrect.
To be fair, I think it's very difficult to define in words what these terms mean in their current consensus usage (partly because authors aren't, in my view, consistent, and partly because they often don't give their definitions). However, what is written here is very problematic. I'm a bit reluctant to make editing changes without some input from others. There's also the difficulty of finding source references with clear and consistent definitions. Peter coxhead ( talk) 22:34, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Personnaly, I'll definite :
N@ldo ( talk) 11:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I agree too. The definitions based on the notion of common ancestor are rather confusing.
"All members of a monophyletic group are more closely related between them than they are with any other taxon situated outside the group. A monophyletic group is defined by at least a synapomorphy (= a character at a derived state)." Maybe we can also add that some will call them holophyletic groups.
I took these definitions from diverse lectures and sources, including Darlu & Tassy 1983 (rather old, but still valid for such definitions). N@ldo ( talk) 22:45, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
The example, I think, is confusing. True, the backbone is a plesiomorphy if you are inside the Vertebrates. But no matrix can group birds and mammals as a paraphyletic group if you use backbone as a character at a plesiomorphic state, because there is no apomorphic state for the same character in the group considered. As an example of symplesiomorphy which leads to paraphyletic groups, we can use for example the pluribasal member. Inside the Vertebrates (or at least, the Craniata), it is a plesiomorphic character. The apomorphic state for Sarcopterygii will be "absence of pluribasal member", or "monobasal member". As a consequence, a group defined by the character state "pluribasal member" (Chondrichtyes + Actinopterygii if you don't include fossils) will be paraphyletic, as it excludes Sarcopterygii. Glad that this discussion had made the article better ! N@ldo ( talk) 21:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
In a discussion with user Peter coxhead we came to the conclusion that the bird-dinosaur example is not entirely appropriate. If no one objects, I'll remove it. Does anyone know of another case, easily understandable to the general public, in which homology might have been assumed because of a presupposed phylogeny?-- MWAK ( talk) 14:00, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
I have determined that the Clade article and the Clades section of this article contain basically the same information, therefore making it pointless for Clade to have its own article. There is really no way to expand information on the term so as to necessitate a separate main article, since any discussions on clades refers directly to cladistics. This is just a heads up to anyone wondering where the Clade article went. Cadiomals ( talk) 03:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
In view of mounting evidence to the contrary (such as this source), to imply that there is a clade containing birds and lizards but not turtles violates WP:NPOV. The diagram in the Clades section therefore needs revision. I suggest eliminating the Testudines side branch, eliminating the Reptilia and Diapsida legends, and specifying Sauropsida as the node for the Lepidosauria branch. If five side branches is not considered enough, one for the Hyperoartia (lampreys) could be added. Peter M. Brown ( talk) 21:04, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Part of the problem is that terms like "paraphyly" and "polyphyly" aren't used consistently in the literature; they may include or exclude hypothetical ancestors. The commonest uses of these terms in papers that I read are to classify groups of terminal nodes in cladograms produced by either morphological or molecular cladistic analyses. In such cases there is no question of ancestors being included. (This is well-discussed by Podani (2010) – reference here.) So if you use the term "paraphyly" solely in terms of the terminal nodes of this cladogram then traditional monkeys are a paraphyletic group. Whether or not they are paraphyletic if ancestors are included isn't clear to me; you would have to define "monkeys" as all the whole simian clade (i.e. down to its earliest ancestor) minus the whole hominoid clade. I don't think that the traditional term "monkey" would be used in the kind of source which discussed the fossil ancestors. Peter coxhead ( talk) 17:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi Peter Brown - you asked if you were missing something in removing the sentence "The fact that ostriches and rheas both have four limbs does not provide any support for putting them into a separate group of 'flightless birds'." Perhaps. Isn't it an important concept that while ostriches and rheas share this character, it provides no evidence of their being closely related, because the trait is plesiomorphic for the larger clade containing those species - tetrapoda?
I am removing some commas recently added to the article. All are permitted by the rules, but many are optional and interfere with the flow of the text. For example, the edit added a comma after each occurrence of "e.g."; while this is always permitted, it is generally optional. The Blue Book of Grammar and Punctuation, for example, uses
as an example of acceptable usage; a comma is admissible after "e.g.", but it is not necessary. Peter M. Brown ( talk) 12:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Argh. This whole series of articles was, and largely still is, a mess. So many articles on so narrow topics, all of them repeating large chunks of the same stuff (independently written, not copied & pasted!) that only fits one of them... Cladogram explains phylogenetic analysis at considerable length, the very topic of the Phylogenetics article, when a cladogram is simply the result of a phylogenetic analysis...
I have tried to begin unraveling this mess. Yesterday, I extricated Phylogenetic nomenclature from it; that was fairly easy, because I had created that article independently of the mess. I also restricted Clade to what it says on the tin; that article was relatively short.
Today, I:
The article as it now is does not have enough references. I'll try to add more, but I won't have much time in the coming weeks. Feel free to scoop me!
Now on to Phylogenetics... but I won't do much there, it's late.
David Marjanović ( talk) 18:19, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
According to Cladistics#Example, Linnaean taxonomy defines the Tetrapoda "morphologically as vertebrates with four limbs (as well as animals with four-limbed ancestors, such as snakes)." The definition is not morphological if it includes the part in parentheses, which brings in the matter of ancestry. Without the parentheses, however, it is inadequate because it excludes snakes, moas, etc. Peter M. Brown ( talk) 17:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)