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It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. 2 July 2005 05:18 (UTC)
-- Prunetucky 19:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Civilisation is not somehow etymologically more correct. The word itself is a very late neo-Latin neologism, not found in classical or medieval Latin. The Latin noun is civis. The adjectival form is civilis. But a Roman would have called civilization urbanitas, civitas, humanitas or used the Greek πολιτισμός or πολιτεία --- not civilisatio, which simply never existed in Latin and is very bad Latin word formation. For the verb "civilize," a Roman would have said excolere or expolire. Civilisation does not somehow preserve a non-existent Roman spelling. In one sense, the American usage is more correct, because it preserves the proper transcription of the Greek zeta -ίζω that we English speakers have adopted as our own by appending -ize to almost any noun we choose to make it a verb. This goes back to the entrance of numerous Greek verbs into Latin in late classical and early medieval times, most notably the verb baptizo. The Romans kept the "z", but at some point the proud sons of Albion felt they should have their own Brittanic spelling, while the more humble colonials saw no need to tamper with the patrimony of Jesus, John the Baptist et al. The only reason I support this at all is because Chambers seems to be the originator of the term, and he used the standard British English spelling. I will continue my support only if British Wikipedians solemnly swear to support -ize and -ization for words coined by Americans, so help them God. ( Nonconformists may affirm). -- Jpbrenna 19:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For "civilization" (which is listed under that spelling), the OED refers to "civilize" for the etymology:
For the Greek-challenged, that's "-izein". The entry for "civilization" also has a 1704-1710 cite to Harris' Lex. Techn. (predating Chambers) which unfortunately doesn't give the spelling used. DopefishJustin (・∀・) June 29, 2005 21:52 (UTC)
An Oxford Dictionaries website states that -ize spellings during the 19th century standardization of English, "the consistent use of -ize was one of the conventions that became established. Further, it states that "The Oxford English Dictionary favoured -ize, partly on the linguistic basis that the suffix derives from the Greek suffix -izo, and this was also the style of Encyclopedia Britannica (even before it was American-owned)." prestonmarkstone November 15, 2005 18:03 (UTC)
The word civilisation comes from the Latin, civilis, via the French civilisation. The English word is thus Latin in origin. If it were Spanish, Estonian or otherwise a case could be made for the z rather than the s, but etymologically it is more crrect to say civilisation, unless, in the origin section, an amendment on the origins of the American spelling is to be added.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 |
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. 2 July 2005 05:18 (UTC)
-- Prunetucky 19:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Civilisation is not somehow etymologically more correct. The word itself is a very late neo-Latin neologism, not found in classical or medieval Latin. The Latin noun is civis. The adjectival form is civilis. But a Roman would have called civilization urbanitas, civitas, humanitas or used the Greek πολιτισμός or πολιτεία --- not civilisatio, which simply never existed in Latin and is very bad Latin word formation. For the verb "civilize," a Roman would have said excolere or expolire. Civilisation does not somehow preserve a non-existent Roman spelling. In one sense, the American usage is more correct, because it preserves the proper transcription of the Greek zeta -ίζω that we English speakers have adopted as our own by appending -ize to almost any noun we choose to make it a verb. This goes back to the entrance of numerous Greek verbs into Latin in late classical and early medieval times, most notably the verb baptizo. The Romans kept the "z", but at some point the proud sons of Albion felt they should have their own Brittanic spelling, while the more humble colonials saw no need to tamper with the patrimony of Jesus, John the Baptist et al. The only reason I support this at all is because Chambers seems to be the originator of the term, and he used the standard British English spelling. I will continue my support only if British Wikipedians solemnly swear to support -ize and -ization for words coined by Americans, so help them God. ( Nonconformists may affirm). -- Jpbrenna 19:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
For "civilization" (which is listed under that spelling), the OED refers to "civilize" for the etymology:
For the Greek-challenged, that's "-izein". The entry for "civilization" also has a 1704-1710 cite to Harris' Lex. Techn. (predating Chambers) which unfortunately doesn't give the spelling used. DopefishJustin (・∀・) June 29, 2005 21:52 (UTC)
An Oxford Dictionaries website states that -ize spellings during the 19th century standardization of English, "the consistent use of -ize was one of the conventions that became established. Further, it states that "The Oxford English Dictionary favoured -ize, partly on the linguistic basis that the suffix derives from the Greek suffix -izo, and this was also the style of Encyclopedia Britannica (even before it was American-owned)." prestonmarkstone November 15, 2005 18:03 (UTC)
The word civilisation comes from the Latin, civilis, via the French civilisation. The English word is thus Latin in origin. If it were Spanish, Estonian or otherwise a case could be made for the z rather than the s, but etymologically it is more crrect to say civilisation, unless, in the origin section, an amendment on the origins of the American spelling is to be added.