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Rewrote india and british relationship. The Indian Civil Service actually predates the British one.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadrunner ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 29 December 2002 (UTC)
I have moved "British Civil Service" to "Civil service of the United Kingdom" for several reasons. Foremost, the "civil service" is not the name of a specific institution - but rather the beaurocracy of any number of governmental departments. For this reason it cannot be written as a proper noun (Civil Service). Secondly, the civil service of the UNITED KINGDOM is not limited to England, Wales and Scotland but equally operates within Northern Ireland - rendering "Britain" an incorrect and obsolete term for the mainland. Finally, "United Kingdom civil service" is not as clear as "Civil service of the United Kingdom" - the second is compliant with naming conventions on Wikipedia. -- Oldak Quill 10:15, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The move from "British" to "United Kingdom" Civil Service is erroneous. There is in fact a separate Northern Ireland Civil Service, so British would be more accurate. The Departments in Northern Ireland are staffed by the NICS, although the Northern Ireland Office in London is part of the Home Civil Service.-- George Burgess 20:00, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have not been satisfied with this article, and have now put in a good deal of material seeking to improve it. I think it still needs better material on political independence (which has been a really central issue under Blair), Ponting and a Civil Service Act; something on the Whitley Council system and GCHQ; something on devolution; something on the break-up of centralised terms and conditions; and something on the new Professional Skills in Government programme. I shall aim to give this time in due course.
George Burgess is correct, by the way.
Mark O'Sullivan 10:34, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
"A new civil service code was launched on 6 August 2006" - How is it possible for a new code to have been launched (past tense)a month after the present date? Anyway. Can somebody confirm whether or not it will be launched on the 6th of August (i.e. tense error) or whether it in fact had been launched already and the date is wrong? -- User:Capreolus 19:56, 3rd July 2006 (UTC)
Reference link (20) invalid, could be replaced with: http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/work/cscode/index.aspx
The grade comparators are good, but only Executive grades and above are listed, up to SCS. The AAs and AOs have been omitted altogether. Given the preponderance of these grades in, for instance, Executive Agencies, does anyone want to have a go? Wisdom of clowns 10:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't see any grading material. This is poor compared to the good information on both the police and the armed forces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.0.57.14 ( talk) 21:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I have a lot of information on the AA/A0 grades across the board. BTW - Where has the grade chart gone, and why was it removed? (Lundenwych - 7 August 2008 - 1837hrs)
Could we add a column showing the old grades eg principal, assistant secretary? http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2009/c2/table225.html
The military equivalences below EO are completely made up and the column about competency levels is no longer relevant (and wasn't very useful when it was). I might try to update this table when I have a moment, I just hope it won't be reverted, as much of the current information is not properly cited anyway! Farleysmaster ( talk) 15:45, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
"Offices of state grew in England, and later the United Kingdom, piecemeal. Initially, as in other countries, they were little more than secretariats for their leaders, who held positions at court. In the 18th century, in response to the growth of the British Empire and economic changes, institutions such as the Office of Works and the Navy Board grew large. Each had its own system and staff were appointed by purchase or patronage. By the 19th century, it became increasingly clear that these arrangements were not working." I understand what this means, but it could be a lot better-written: for example, "institutions such as the Office of Works and the Navy Board grew large" seems both ugly and not very informative (how much bigger did they get and were they perceived as becoming so large as to be unwieldy?). The last sentence in particular raises questions: if it had become clear that appointments by purchase and patronage were "not working", how does the writer explain the growth of the British Empire? If the lack of a professionalised civil service was a genuine lack, shouldn't it have been perceived as an impediment to growth? In whose opinion was the existing system "not working", and why didn't they think it worked? Lexo ( talk) 09:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
At present the article says that the position of Head of the Home Civil Service has been combined with that of Secretary to the Cabinet since 1981, an assertion repeated on the Cabinet Secretary article. I've just been looking through the lists of heads of departments on pages 301 to 306 of 20th Century British Political Facts and this doesn't seem quite right. From 1919 to 1956 Fisher, Wilson, Hopkins and Bridges were Head of the HCS while also Permanent Secretary to the Treasury. Brook was Head from 1956 to 1963 while Secretary to the Treasury with Makins until 1959 and then with Lee from 1960 until 1962, when they were replaced by Helsby and W. Armstrong. In 1963 Helsby became Head of the Civil Service while Armstrong continued alone at the Treasury. In 1968 Armstrong became Head while also becoming Permanent Secretary at the Civil Service Department, and his successors Allen and Bancroft also filled both these roles. In 1981 the joint heads were Wass from the Treasury and R. Armstrong from the Cabinet Office. Wass retired in 1983 and the Cabinet Secretary has remained Head of the Home Civil Service since. Opera hat ( talk) 23:58, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I’m Andrew Clark and I work at the Office for National Statistics in the UK.
We publish lots of infographics and I wonder if this one on UK civil service ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_number_of_civil_servants_employed_in_the_UK_in_2013_is_448,840.png) would be of interest for UK_civil_service
FYI, the full gallery, updated weekly, is here < https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Content_created_by_the_Office_for_National_Statistics>
All the best
Andrew Clark (smanders1982) 10 Dec 2013
Smanders1982 ( talk) 13:38, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm aware I have a COI for updates to this article, as I work in the civil service. However, I've just made a few minor factual/neutral amends as allowed for in the Best practices for editors with close associations and, as advised in those guidelines, I'm also posting here to be up-front about it. I'm considering what other edits might be useful, but I will post here suggestions for anything substantial. Scrumph ( talk) 15:37, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: MOVED. ( non-admin closure) KSF T C 21:23, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
Her Majesty's Civil Service →
UK civil service – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here.
Tony
(talk)
04:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
The country is not identified (readers searching for the topic are expected to know that "her majesty" is the British queen?). The current title appears to result from a legalistic argument for monarchical identity, and sounds more like the title of a James Bond movie than what readers would type into their search box. I instinctively typed in "British civil service", and it was hard to find. I note that a UK civil servant—Andrew Clark—referred to it two threads above as "UK civil service". NB, I'd be fine with "British civil service" too—whichever is better for our readers. Tony (talk) 04:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
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The following statement in the article is undoubtely true: Recruitment data from the 2018 Civil Service Fast Stream process showed that white applicants were 15 times more likely to be recruited than black candidates. Yet, standing by itself, it gives the impression of discrimination against blacks. Hence it is missing a NPOV. The number of blacks recruited should be in relation to the number of blacks in the British society. It should also be mentioned how "whites" are defined. Creuzbourg ( talk) 15:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
If anyone would like to take it on, the overall article Civil Service needs some serious work. See Talk:Civil service#Why does an article nominally about a service immediately become one about Civil Servants?. Thank you. -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 15:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Since the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 the Home Civil Service is no longer a term that is used, with what would have previously been the Home Civil Service now, along with HM Diplomatic Service, being part of the "civil service of the State".
It has now become practice to refer to this as "The Civil Service", and titles such as the "Head of the Home Civil Service" have been renamed to "Head of the Civil Service".
HM Diplomatic Service remains as part of the Civil Service. Recollect4741 ( talk) 22:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
Rewrote india and british relationship. The Indian Civil Service actually predates the British one.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Roadrunner ( talk • contribs) 22:41, 29 December 2002 (UTC)
I have moved "British Civil Service" to "Civil service of the United Kingdom" for several reasons. Foremost, the "civil service" is not the name of a specific institution - but rather the beaurocracy of any number of governmental departments. For this reason it cannot be written as a proper noun (Civil Service). Secondly, the civil service of the UNITED KINGDOM is not limited to England, Wales and Scotland but equally operates within Northern Ireland - rendering "Britain" an incorrect and obsolete term for the mainland. Finally, "United Kingdom civil service" is not as clear as "Civil service of the United Kingdom" - the second is compliant with naming conventions on Wikipedia. -- Oldak Quill 10:15, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The move from "British" to "United Kingdom" Civil Service is erroneous. There is in fact a separate Northern Ireland Civil Service, so British would be more accurate. The Departments in Northern Ireland are staffed by the NICS, although the Northern Ireland Office in London is part of the Home Civil Service.-- George Burgess 20:00, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have not been satisfied with this article, and have now put in a good deal of material seeking to improve it. I think it still needs better material on political independence (which has been a really central issue under Blair), Ponting and a Civil Service Act; something on the Whitley Council system and GCHQ; something on devolution; something on the break-up of centralised terms and conditions; and something on the new Professional Skills in Government programme. I shall aim to give this time in due course.
George Burgess is correct, by the way.
Mark O'Sullivan 10:34, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
"A new civil service code was launched on 6 August 2006" - How is it possible for a new code to have been launched (past tense)a month after the present date? Anyway. Can somebody confirm whether or not it will be launched on the 6th of August (i.e. tense error) or whether it in fact had been launched already and the date is wrong? -- User:Capreolus 19:56, 3rd July 2006 (UTC)
Reference link (20) invalid, could be replaced with: http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/work/cscode/index.aspx
The grade comparators are good, but only Executive grades and above are listed, up to SCS. The AAs and AOs have been omitted altogether. Given the preponderance of these grades in, for instance, Executive Agencies, does anyone want to have a go? Wisdom of clowns 10:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't see any grading material. This is poor compared to the good information on both the police and the armed forces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.0.57.14 ( talk) 21:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I have a lot of information on the AA/A0 grades across the board. BTW - Where has the grade chart gone, and why was it removed? (Lundenwych - 7 August 2008 - 1837hrs)
Could we add a column showing the old grades eg principal, assistant secretary? http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2009/c2/table225.html
The military equivalences below EO are completely made up and the column about competency levels is no longer relevant (and wasn't very useful when it was). I might try to update this table when I have a moment, I just hope it won't be reverted, as much of the current information is not properly cited anyway! Farleysmaster ( talk) 15:45, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
"Offices of state grew in England, and later the United Kingdom, piecemeal. Initially, as in other countries, they were little more than secretariats for their leaders, who held positions at court. In the 18th century, in response to the growth of the British Empire and economic changes, institutions such as the Office of Works and the Navy Board grew large. Each had its own system and staff were appointed by purchase or patronage. By the 19th century, it became increasingly clear that these arrangements were not working." I understand what this means, but it could be a lot better-written: for example, "institutions such as the Office of Works and the Navy Board grew large" seems both ugly and not very informative (how much bigger did they get and were they perceived as becoming so large as to be unwieldy?). The last sentence in particular raises questions: if it had become clear that appointments by purchase and patronage were "not working", how does the writer explain the growth of the British Empire? If the lack of a professionalised civil service was a genuine lack, shouldn't it have been perceived as an impediment to growth? In whose opinion was the existing system "not working", and why didn't they think it worked? Lexo ( talk) 09:29, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
At present the article says that the position of Head of the Home Civil Service has been combined with that of Secretary to the Cabinet since 1981, an assertion repeated on the Cabinet Secretary article. I've just been looking through the lists of heads of departments on pages 301 to 306 of 20th Century British Political Facts and this doesn't seem quite right. From 1919 to 1956 Fisher, Wilson, Hopkins and Bridges were Head of the HCS while also Permanent Secretary to the Treasury. Brook was Head from 1956 to 1963 while Secretary to the Treasury with Makins until 1959 and then with Lee from 1960 until 1962, when they were replaced by Helsby and W. Armstrong. In 1963 Helsby became Head of the Civil Service while Armstrong continued alone at the Treasury. In 1968 Armstrong became Head while also becoming Permanent Secretary at the Civil Service Department, and his successors Allen and Bancroft also filled both these roles. In 1981 the joint heads were Wass from the Treasury and R. Armstrong from the Cabinet Office. Wass retired in 1983 and the Cabinet Secretary has remained Head of the Home Civil Service since. Opera hat ( talk) 23:58, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I’m Andrew Clark and I work at the Office for National Statistics in the UK.
We publish lots of infographics and I wonder if this one on UK civil service ( https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_number_of_civil_servants_employed_in_the_UK_in_2013_is_448,840.png) would be of interest for UK_civil_service
FYI, the full gallery, updated weekly, is here < https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Content_created_by_the_Office_for_National_Statistics>
All the best
Andrew Clark (smanders1982) 10 Dec 2013
Smanders1982 ( talk) 13:38, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm aware I have a COI for updates to this article, as I work in the civil service. However, I've just made a few minor factual/neutral amends as allowed for in the Best practices for editors with close associations and, as advised in those guidelines, I'm also posting here to be up-front about it. I'm considering what other edits might be useful, but I will post here suggestions for anything substantial. Scrumph ( talk) 15:37, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: MOVED. ( non-admin closure) KSF T C 21:23, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
Her Majesty's Civil Service →
UK civil service – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here.
Tony
(talk)
04:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
The country is not identified (readers searching for the topic are expected to know that "her majesty" is the British queen?). The current title appears to result from a legalistic argument for monarchical identity, and sounds more like the title of a James Bond movie than what readers would type into their search box. I instinctively typed in "British civil service", and it was hard to find. I note that a UK civil servant—Andrew Clark—referred to it two threads above as "UK civil service". NB, I'd be fine with "British civil service" too—whichever is better for our readers. Tony (talk) 04:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
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The following statement in the article is undoubtely true: Recruitment data from the 2018 Civil Service Fast Stream process showed that white applicants were 15 times more likely to be recruited than black candidates. Yet, standing by itself, it gives the impression of discrimination against blacks. Hence it is missing a NPOV. The number of blacks recruited should be in relation to the number of blacks in the British society. It should also be mentioned how "whites" are defined. Creuzbourg ( talk) 15:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
If anyone would like to take it on, the overall article Civil Service needs some serious work. See Talk:Civil service#Why does an article nominally about a service immediately become one about Civil Servants?. Thank you. -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 15:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)
Since the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 the Home Civil Service is no longer a term that is used, with what would have previously been the Home Civil Service now, along with HM Diplomatic Service, being part of the "civil service of the State".
It has now become practice to refer to this as "The Civil Service", and titles such as the "Head of the Home Civil Service" have been renamed to "Head of the Civil Service".
HM Diplomatic Service remains as part of the Civil Service. Recollect4741 ( talk) 22:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)