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Please any comments or disccusion would be appreciated.
You know the most famous civic nationalist here in Canada was Pierre Trudeau, the leader of our liberal party. He was actually the first one who argued for civil nationalism, that the only nationlism we should feel is pride in defending human rights as he felt the English and French Canadians unending squabbles were unfruitful for the nation. He came up with the famous phrase "the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation". lol. For the record Canda takes in more refugees than any country in the world and rather than assimilation we favor celebration of individual culture, so I guess we probably are the world's strongest proponent of civic nationalism
"Liberal nationalism" is more common than "civic nationalism". Page should be moved. Ostap 01:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Never heard about liberal nationalism before this article and assuming liberal nationalism is another name with same definition as civic nationalism, I would never assume it was the same thing if I saw the name. Also google trends ( https://trends.google.com.br/trends/explore?date=all&q=%22civic%20nationalism%22,%22liberal%20nationalism%22) put "civic nationalism" above "liberal nationalism" 201.79.59.127 ( talk) 20:32, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
I disagree with the merge proposal, that was given without reason, due to the fact that this article refers to a specific phenomenon within nationalism. The fact one of the books cited on this article is called 'Liberal nationalism' testifies to the existence of the genre. Munci ( talk) 22:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Just change it. Period. end of story. K, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.153.214.136 ( talk • contribs)
Can someone give me a good reason why Plaid Cymru and the SNP are on this page but the English Democrats have not been included? If the English Democrats have simply been missed out then that I can add a short sentence including them Angon450 ( talk)
This is an article about "civic nationalism" - simply meaning to unite all ethnics under one nation. And most of these examples given here are the political wing of separatist/terrorist organizations (IRA, ETA, Flemish, ...), which strictly oppose this concept. Absurd. -- 188.22.174.54 ( talk) 22:48, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
I noticed a number of references are the url to a Google Book link. I though editors might be interested in a tool which takes a link as input and creates a (usually) properly formatted ref.
Wikipedia citation tool for Google Books
I used it to improve two such references.
It really helps creates a much cleaner list of references. I hope you will try it.-- S Philbrick (Talk) 17:14, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
So guys, is there a difference between Patriotism versus Liberal Nationalism? Because I can't see any!
Steliokardam (
talk)
14:39, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
This entire phrasing, "...identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights..." is both overly generalizing and speculative in its reasoning for why such nations exist or came to exist, and unnecessarily prejudicial. Xenophobe isn't exactly a neutral term.
I'd also like to point out that just because you can link to a source doesn't make something true. It's not some magical function that suddenly turns an obviously subjective opinion into fact. The best you could say is, "X believes Y," and those kinds of statements are typically never relevant. They're usually just a vehicle for people to inject opinion into an article and nothing more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.111.96.81 ( talk) 02:10, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
I would like to know why someone is constantly removing UKIP from inclusion in the civic nationalism page. It is quite clear that the party are such, being an all inclusive party of all peoples. Perhaps I ought to author a whole paragraph and photo to illustrate..... It is also quite clear there are certain areas of politics which would like such "truths" be suppressed least they conflict with their own "interests".... such behavior does not belong on a facts page! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.122.49.85 ( talk) 07:39, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
References
Is the SNP even a nationalist party let alone civic nationalist? A nationalist party would not wish to transfer sovereignty to an external body such as the EU, this is in contrast to UKIP who wish to return sovereignty to the people of the UK. Furthermore UKIP are demonstrably more civil nationalist by encompassing four nations into a British identity within the UK territory(including all resident peoples), yet UKIP being included on this page is questioned by political motivated individuals.
I move that if UKIP are excluded then the SNP has no grounds to be on this page. Please discuss the merits of SNPs inclusion, pending possible removal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougal83 ( talk • contribs) 17:13, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
The "contrast with ethnic nationalism" section is full of problematic false dichotomies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:887:F7C0:5CD2:F0F1:779D:14E1 ( talk) 00:31, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
I resorted to this page to see whether it had any information about these Open Letters being published in Northern and Southern Ireland re " Civ " - ?
https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/02/27/are-the-terms-civic-unionists-and-nationalists-an-oxymoron/
" … Is it an oxymoron to attach the word “civic” to either unionist or nationalist? Is the benign label “civic” in front of them designed only to conceal partisanship behind a cloak of objectivity? Hopefully not. They are familiar signifiers rather than labels of allegiance; otherwise “civil society” would be limited to our few assorted socialists, Greens, Alliance party supporters, the professionally and personally unaligned and the genuinely uninterested. If “civic” still has meaning, it indicates a commitment to think freely beyond an acknowledged background in the interests of “the citizen.” … "
[ WHICH GIVES THE TEXT OF ONE OF THESE OPEN LETTERS - " CIVIC UNIONIST " ]
“We the undersigned desire a transparent and inclusive debate concerning rights, truth, equality and civil liberties and in so doing challenge assumptions that such values are not embedded within civic unionism, pluralism and other identities.
We are motivated by the desire to build a society for the betterment of everyone. This cannot happen when such a commitment is perceived as being vested in one community or political persuasion. We find it frustrating and puzzling that civic unionism, pluralists and other forms of civic leadership have been rendered invisible in many debates focused on rights and responsibilities. It has reduced our capacity to be heard and undermines the power of reconciliation to shift society away from stale and limiting notions of identity.
We have worked for peace and reconciliation and in so doing have had open and transparent engagement with civic nationalism. That has included recognition of the need for equality and most importantly the urgent need for polarised communities in Northern Ireland to reconcile and deal with barriers to a better future.
To achieve this requires the recognition that withholding truth presents as such. This is not unique to any institution or section within our society but where it is a selective process, healing a pernicious and destabilising past remains as a challenge to us all.
Civic unionism, and other identities are not resistant to claims of equality and full citizenship. These identities are central to the development of an authentically fair and tolerant society.
We wish to unite, not divide, and in encouraging transparency we call upon civic nationalism and others to engage with us in frank and fulsome debates about the many values and beliefs that are commonly shared and are vital to transforming the issues that we face."
WHICH WAS FROM = https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/civic-unionism-group-issues-riposte-to-civic-nationalism-1.3406055
… 03.00 am - I place this note here for you because I am going to put this on the back burner because of my lack of time and texts. DaiSaw ( talk) 02:06, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 February 2023 and 11 May 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Sourpatchkid10 (
article contribs). Peer reviewers:
That guy5947.
— Assignment last updated by Bane117 ( talk) 03:46, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
User:Yr Enw revert edits on the basis of Wikipedia:I just don't like it. His biggest personal problem with civic nationalism, that it just simply "stole the [ideological] show" of the cradle modern democracy from the much younger (and until the late 20th century) very marginal political philosophy of Cosmopolitanism/internationalism.-- Pharaph ( talk) 09:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
"Umut Özkirimli states, 'civic' nations can be as intolerant and cruel as the so-called 'ethnic' nations, citing French Jacobin techniques of persecution that were utilized by twentieth-century fascists.[6]"
Your addition must be remove, being unmeaning, due to the fact that civic nationalism has nothing to do with nazism. Nazism was ethnocentric and racist, which is the opposite of civic nationalism. 10:14, 3 September 2023 (UTC) There is no URL neither exact number of the page, thus it is a suspicious reference. -- Pharaph ( talk)
Page number and URL too. However the existence of the book, is not a guarantee for credibility, or it does not mean it is even important. Your claims are meaningless, because every political system can be cruel, even liberal democracies (which often express their cosmopolitanism) wage war for economic and geopolitical interests.-- Pharaph ( talk) 10:54, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
Without URL, how can you prove that the reference contains your claims? Or how can the skeptic people knew, that the citation is not a fantasy, and it really contains exactly what you have claimed? How can we be sure, that the info is exactly the same, and not only just your own highly subjective interpretation of the text?-- Pharaph ( talk) 11:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
I think, your reference does not support your claims/fantasy, that's exactly why you selected and inserted a book without URL to prove its real content. Even if it is true (I doubt that), there is no reason to be in this article, especially in the lead of the article. It is illogical and meaningless. Why? Because every ideology nad political systems (including hardcore liberal "cosmopolitan" or the communist internationalists) committed war crimes against certain groups of people/countries due to economic/geopolitical interests. It is not an exclusive feature of civic nationalism. And to make any stressed analogy between nazism and liberal nationalism is false, since the nazis were dedicated enemies of civic nationalism. Learn: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Oxford_Handbook_of_American_Immigrat/wUupDgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hitler+%22civic+nationalism%22&pg=PT196&printsec=frontcover
As you can see, I never give untraceable and unprovable references without URLs!-- Pharaph ( talk) 13:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Please any comments or disccusion would be appreciated.
You know the most famous civic nationalist here in Canada was Pierre Trudeau, the leader of our liberal party. He was actually the first one who argued for civil nationalism, that the only nationlism we should feel is pride in defending human rights as he felt the English and French Canadians unending squabbles were unfruitful for the nation. He came up with the famous phrase "the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation". lol. For the record Canda takes in more refugees than any country in the world and rather than assimilation we favor celebration of individual culture, so I guess we probably are the world's strongest proponent of civic nationalism
"Liberal nationalism" is more common than "civic nationalism". Page should be moved. Ostap 01:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Never heard about liberal nationalism before this article and assuming liberal nationalism is another name with same definition as civic nationalism, I would never assume it was the same thing if I saw the name. Also google trends ( https://trends.google.com.br/trends/explore?date=all&q=%22civic%20nationalism%22,%22liberal%20nationalism%22) put "civic nationalism" above "liberal nationalism" 201.79.59.127 ( talk) 20:32, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
I disagree with the merge proposal, that was given without reason, due to the fact that this article refers to a specific phenomenon within nationalism. The fact one of the books cited on this article is called 'Liberal nationalism' testifies to the existence of the genre. Munci ( talk) 22:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Just change it. Period. end of story. K, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.153.214.136 ( talk • contribs)
Can someone give me a good reason why Plaid Cymru and the SNP are on this page but the English Democrats have not been included? If the English Democrats have simply been missed out then that I can add a short sentence including them Angon450 ( talk)
This is an article about "civic nationalism" - simply meaning to unite all ethnics under one nation. And most of these examples given here are the political wing of separatist/terrorist organizations (IRA, ETA, Flemish, ...), which strictly oppose this concept. Absurd. -- 188.22.174.54 ( talk) 22:48, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
I noticed a number of references are the url to a Google Book link. I though editors might be interested in a tool which takes a link as input and creates a (usually) properly formatted ref.
Wikipedia citation tool for Google Books
I used it to improve two such references.
It really helps creates a much cleaner list of references. I hope you will try it.-- S Philbrick (Talk) 17:14, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
So guys, is there a difference between Patriotism versus Liberal Nationalism? Because I can't see any!
Steliokardam (
talk)
14:39, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
This entire phrasing, "...identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights..." is both overly generalizing and speculative in its reasoning for why such nations exist or came to exist, and unnecessarily prejudicial. Xenophobe isn't exactly a neutral term.
I'd also like to point out that just because you can link to a source doesn't make something true. It's not some magical function that suddenly turns an obviously subjective opinion into fact. The best you could say is, "X believes Y," and those kinds of statements are typically never relevant. They're usually just a vehicle for people to inject opinion into an article and nothing more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.111.96.81 ( talk) 02:10, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
I would like to know why someone is constantly removing UKIP from inclusion in the civic nationalism page. It is quite clear that the party are such, being an all inclusive party of all peoples. Perhaps I ought to author a whole paragraph and photo to illustrate..... It is also quite clear there are certain areas of politics which would like such "truths" be suppressed least they conflict with their own "interests".... such behavior does not belong on a facts page! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.122.49.85 ( talk) 07:39, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
References
Is the SNP even a nationalist party let alone civic nationalist? A nationalist party would not wish to transfer sovereignty to an external body such as the EU, this is in contrast to UKIP who wish to return sovereignty to the people of the UK. Furthermore UKIP are demonstrably more civil nationalist by encompassing four nations into a British identity within the UK territory(including all resident peoples), yet UKIP being included on this page is questioned by political motivated individuals.
I move that if UKIP are excluded then the SNP has no grounds to be on this page. Please discuss the merits of SNPs inclusion, pending possible removal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougal83 ( talk • contribs) 17:13, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
The "contrast with ethnic nationalism" section is full of problematic false dichotomies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:887:F7C0:5CD2:F0F1:779D:14E1 ( talk) 00:31, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
I resorted to this page to see whether it had any information about these Open Letters being published in Northern and Southern Ireland re " Civ " - ?
https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/02/27/are-the-terms-civic-unionists-and-nationalists-an-oxymoron/
" … Is it an oxymoron to attach the word “civic” to either unionist or nationalist? Is the benign label “civic” in front of them designed only to conceal partisanship behind a cloak of objectivity? Hopefully not. They are familiar signifiers rather than labels of allegiance; otherwise “civil society” would be limited to our few assorted socialists, Greens, Alliance party supporters, the professionally and personally unaligned and the genuinely uninterested. If “civic” still has meaning, it indicates a commitment to think freely beyond an acknowledged background in the interests of “the citizen.” … "
[ WHICH GIVES THE TEXT OF ONE OF THESE OPEN LETTERS - " CIVIC UNIONIST " ]
“We the undersigned desire a transparent and inclusive debate concerning rights, truth, equality and civil liberties and in so doing challenge assumptions that such values are not embedded within civic unionism, pluralism and other identities.
We are motivated by the desire to build a society for the betterment of everyone. This cannot happen when such a commitment is perceived as being vested in one community or political persuasion. We find it frustrating and puzzling that civic unionism, pluralists and other forms of civic leadership have been rendered invisible in many debates focused on rights and responsibilities. It has reduced our capacity to be heard and undermines the power of reconciliation to shift society away from stale and limiting notions of identity.
We have worked for peace and reconciliation and in so doing have had open and transparent engagement with civic nationalism. That has included recognition of the need for equality and most importantly the urgent need for polarised communities in Northern Ireland to reconcile and deal with barriers to a better future.
To achieve this requires the recognition that withholding truth presents as such. This is not unique to any institution or section within our society but where it is a selective process, healing a pernicious and destabilising past remains as a challenge to us all.
Civic unionism, and other identities are not resistant to claims of equality and full citizenship. These identities are central to the development of an authentically fair and tolerant society.
We wish to unite, not divide, and in encouraging transparency we call upon civic nationalism and others to engage with us in frank and fulsome debates about the many values and beliefs that are commonly shared and are vital to transforming the issues that we face."
WHICH WAS FROM = https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/civic-unionism-group-issues-riposte-to-civic-nationalism-1.3406055
… 03.00 am - I place this note here for you because I am going to put this on the back burner because of my lack of time and texts. DaiSaw ( talk) 02:06, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 February 2023 and 11 May 2023. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Sourpatchkid10 (
article contribs). Peer reviewers:
That guy5947.
— Assignment last updated by Bane117 ( talk) 03:46, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
User:Yr Enw revert edits on the basis of Wikipedia:I just don't like it. His biggest personal problem with civic nationalism, that it just simply "stole the [ideological] show" of the cradle modern democracy from the much younger (and until the late 20th century) very marginal political philosophy of Cosmopolitanism/internationalism.-- Pharaph ( talk) 09:10, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
"Umut Özkirimli states, 'civic' nations can be as intolerant and cruel as the so-called 'ethnic' nations, citing French Jacobin techniques of persecution that were utilized by twentieth-century fascists.[6]"
Your addition must be remove, being unmeaning, due to the fact that civic nationalism has nothing to do with nazism. Nazism was ethnocentric and racist, which is the opposite of civic nationalism. 10:14, 3 September 2023 (UTC) There is no URL neither exact number of the page, thus it is a suspicious reference. -- Pharaph ( talk)
Page number and URL too. However the existence of the book, is not a guarantee for credibility, or it does not mean it is even important. Your claims are meaningless, because every political system can be cruel, even liberal democracies (which often express their cosmopolitanism) wage war for economic and geopolitical interests.-- Pharaph ( talk) 10:54, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
Without URL, how can you prove that the reference contains your claims? Or how can the skeptic people knew, that the citation is not a fantasy, and it really contains exactly what you have claimed? How can we be sure, that the info is exactly the same, and not only just your own highly subjective interpretation of the text?-- Pharaph ( talk) 11:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
I think, your reference does not support your claims/fantasy, that's exactly why you selected and inserted a book without URL to prove its real content. Even if it is true (I doubt that), there is no reason to be in this article, especially in the lead of the article. It is illogical and meaningless. Why? Because every ideology nad political systems (including hardcore liberal "cosmopolitan" or the communist internationalists) committed war crimes against certain groups of people/countries due to economic/geopolitical interests. It is not an exclusive feature of civic nationalism. And to make any stressed analogy between nazism and liberal nationalism is false, since the nazis were dedicated enemies of civic nationalism. Learn: https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Oxford_Handbook_of_American_Immigrat/wUupDgAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hitler+%22civic+nationalism%22&pg=PT196&printsec=frontcover
As you can see, I never give untraceable and unprovable references without URLs!-- Pharaph ( talk) 13:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)