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How can this article be improved to make it sound less like a promotional brochure? Denverjeffrey ( talk) 17:06, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There's no agreement to move here, but feel free to put together a merge proposal or other suggestions if you think they will gain consensus. — Amakuru ( talk) 00:03, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
– As per the discussion we had in the deletion request for this article, I wanted to start a renaming request. There should be two articles for Civic Center. One for the neighborhood and one for the historic district. Golden Triangle is not the name of the neighborhood, and as such it should be named Civic Center. Here are two official websites backing that up. Denver Post crimes by neighborhood. Denver Gov website that lists it as Civic Center. Also want to point out that on Google Maps the area is only listed as Civic Center. The highlighted part of the map on the Golden Triangle article itself calls it civic center. And anecdotally, I live in Denver. People call it Civic Center. I've suspected that the whole Golden Triangle thing is to lure tourists to the area, but that's just speculation. If our goal in naming articles is to not confuse people, I think we should use the name that appears in most other spots, with a clarification in the article that it is sometimes called "Golden Triangle" I also threw the naming question to the people of the Denver subreddit. Here's what they said. Overwhelming majority said that they call it Civic Center. So both its official name and common name is Civic Center, so that's why I think the Golden Triangle Article needs to be renamed. Bluedude588 ( talk) 22:51, 18 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 11:09, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Well, despite the Requested Move not establishing a clear consensus for what this should be named, I do think there was enough of a consensus in the past AFD that there should be two separate articles, and that this is the one which should be about the neighborhood. Dickylon's late comment in the RM notwithstanding, and their concern partly addressed by my editing. And I have developed it somewhat that way. And I moved this to "Civic Center, Denver (neighborhood)". while mentioning "Golden Triangle" in bold in the lede, and I moved the other one (to be about the historic district area) to Denver Civic Center. I'm open to refinement of the names, but this is progress, providing distinction between and clear focus within each of them. -- Doncram ( talk) 21:45, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
Hey, is it possible to find some published characterization of the Golden Triangle name as being a promotional name pushed by real estate interests or similar (as suggested to be the case in AFD discussion)? It would help this article, and I think it could go far towards addressing some of the participants' concerns, if we could state such stuff explicitly, with sources. Probably the strongest opinions stated in the AFD were those of editor Jeffrey Beall (JB), who I characterized as really really disliking the Golden Triangle name of larger neighborhood, and whom I respect but I am afraid I might have offended perhaps by my disagreeing with their recommendation. JB, who I think has lived in Denver, supported outright deletion of the neighborhood article commenting JB "never really thought this article was needed in the first place. I think the article may have been an effort on the part of the real estate community to re-brand the area and avoid the stigma of the 'Civic Center' name. Certainly any content worth retaining can be incorporated into the Civic Center article" and later commented: " here's Denver's official neighborhoods map. Again, I think 'Golden Triangle' is an invention of real estate agents." And Bluedude588, who has also lived in Denver, commented "I've suspected that the whole Golden Triangle thing is to lure tourists to the area, but that's just speculation." (Although B noted: "If our goal in naming articles is to not confuse people, I think we should use the name that appears in most other spots [meaning a version of Civic Center name, which B notes is what people in Denver call the neighborhood], with a clarification in the article that it is sometimes called 'Golden Triangle'".) And I personally agree, personal-opinion-wise though not informed by ever living in the area, that "Golden Triangle" certainly sounds better real-estate-wise or chamber-of-commerce-wise, and I personally believe that however it was derived, that it is very plausible that real-estate and CofC people would indeed promote that name, with their fighting against locals' actual usage of "Civic Center". I agree with JB that "Civic Center" as a name would constitute "stigma", because the term does not convey residential or commercial prosperity at all, it perhaps conveys governmental stodginess instead. It was noted, but by Original Research only i think, that the "Golden Triangle" name shows up only from 1970s on, i think. The examples shared in the AFD support some of this, but also include stuff like the fact that the City of Denver has itself used the Golden Triangle term, perhaps without stodginess in their mind. Anyhow, this may be difficult, but I think it would help a lot to find and use sources explicitly talking about the introduction of the Golden Triangle term and explicitly about conflict/fighting among community forces about which name to use. -- Doncram ( talk) 16:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
For better or worse, what happened after Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Golden Triangle, Denver in 2019 and the requested move (also in 2019) above, was, I think:
I am now wanting to develop the Civic Center government buildings and plaza area one to cover, in appropriate detail, the NRHP-listed historic district and the smaller National Historic Landmark district that are within that area. Please don't anyone have a cow, but I will develop a bit at
Draft:Civic Center Historic District (Denver, Colorado), with expectation that the material will go into a section of the
Denver Civic Center article, and that
Civic Center Historic District (Denver, Colorado) will become a redirect to that section. [UPDATE: There's so much important to say, and so much detail available, that the draft article is going to be too large to merge in, so it will have to stand alone. Separate articles exist (or may yet be created) for many of its component buildings, but those contain (or will contain) more detail than appropriate for the historic district article. I will plan to provide summary about the historic district in the
Denver Civic Center article with a "main"-type link. --
Doncram (
talk) 21:08, 22 October 2022 (UTC)]
I'm not happy, but I see that two Denver Landmarks named "Civic Center" and "Downtown Denver" exist (per Denver's list of historic districts or landmark districts) which probably don't match up to either article, but they should be covered in Wikipedia. By the way it happens that Denver's "Civic Center" one includes a few individual Denver Landmarks (per Denver's list of individual landmarks) whose addresses put them far outside the government buildings area, i think. I don't know the boundaries of either yet, and I don't know Denver very well at all, but I'm going there soon and hope to upload some pics.
I hope, knock on wood, that it will become clear that the "Civic Center" one can be covered in one of the two articles that are going now, or in a section in the Denver Landmarks article itself, and I hope the "Downtown Denver" one can be covered in Downtown Denver. And I'm hoping to avoid ever using the phrase "Civic Center Historic District" as the proper noun name for Denver's landmark district in these and related articles. Instead I hope we can call it " Civic Center Landmark District" or " Civic Center Landmark District (Denver)" (currently redlinks which should be redirected to wherever the topic ends up). Denver's usage seems to be okay with calling them either "Landmark Districts" or "Historic Districts".
Pinging those with opinions in previous discussions ( User:Denverjeffrey, User:Bluedude588, User:Jeffrey Beall, User:Dekimasu, User:MB, User:Dicklyon, User:Britishfinance - though maybe you were just mediating) to update you, and to suggest further discussion if needed should be here on this Talk page. -- Doncram ( talk) 02:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on 1 December 2019. The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
|
How can this article be improved to make it sound less like a promotional brochure? Denverjeffrey ( talk) 17:06, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There's no agreement to move here, but feel free to put together a merge proposal or other suggestions if you think they will gain consensus. — Amakuru ( talk) 00:03, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
– As per the discussion we had in the deletion request for this article, I wanted to start a renaming request. There should be two articles for Civic Center. One for the neighborhood and one for the historic district. Golden Triangle is not the name of the neighborhood, and as such it should be named Civic Center. Here are two official websites backing that up. Denver Post crimes by neighborhood. Denver Gov website that lists it as Civic Center. Also want to point out that on Google Maps the area is only listed as Civic Center. The highlighted part of the map on the Golden Triangle article itself calls it civic center. And anecdotally, I live in Denver. People call it Civic Center. I've suspected that the whole Golden Triangle thing is to lure tourists to the area, but that's just speculation. If our goal in naming articles is to not confuse people, I think we should use the name that appears in most other spots, with a clarification in the article that it is sometimes called "Golden Triangle" I also threw the naming question to the people of the Denver subreddit. Here's what they said. Overwhelming majority said that they call it Civic Center. So both its official name and common name is Civic Center, so that's why I think the Golden Triangle Article needs to be renamed. Bluedude588 ( talk) 22:51, 18 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisting. Cwmhiraeth ( talk) 11:09, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Well, despite the Requested Move not establishing a clear consensus for what this should be named, I do think there was enough of a consensus in the past AFD that there should be two separate articles, and that this is the one which should be about the neighborhood. Dickylon's late comment in the RM notwithstanding, and their concern partly addressed by my editing. And I have developed it somewhat that way. And I moved this to "Civic Center, Denver (neighborhood)". while mentioning "Golden Triangle" in bold in the lede, and I moved the other one (to be about the historic district area) to Denver Civic Center. I'm open to refinement of the names, but this is progress, providing distinction between and clear focus within each of them. -- Doncram ( talk) 21:45, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
Hey, is it possible to find some published characterization of the Golden Triangle name as being a promotional name pushed by real estate interests or similar (as suggested to be the case in AFD discussion)? It would help this article, and I think it could go far towards addressing some of the participants' concerns, if we could state such stuff explicitly, with sources. Probably the strongest opinions stated in the AFD were those of editor Jeffrey Beall (JB), who I characterized as really really disliking the Golden Triangle name of larger neighborhood, and whom I respect but I am afraid I might have offended perhaps by my disagreeing with their recommendation. JB, who I think has lived in Denver, supported outright deletion of the neighborhood article commenting JB "never really thought this article was needed in the first place. I think the article may have been an effort on the part of the real estate community to re-brand the area and avoid the stigma of the 'Civic Center' name. Certainly any content worth retaining can be incorporated into the Civic Center article" and later commented: " here's Denver's official neighborhoods map. Again, I think 'Golden Triangle' is an invention of real estate agents." And Bluedude588, who has also lived in Denver, commented "I've suspected that the whole Golden Triangle thing is to lure tourists to the area, but that's just speculation." (Although B noted: "If our goal in naming articles is to not confuse people, I think we should use the name that appears in most other spots [meaning a version of Civic Center name, which B notes is what people in Denver call the neighborhood], with a clarification in the article that it is sometimes called 'Golden Triangle'".) And I personally agree, personal-opinion-wise though not informed by ever living in the area, that "Golden Triangle" certainly sounds better real-estate-wise or chamber-of-commerce-wise, and I personally believe that however it was derived, that it is very plausible that real-estate and CofC people would indeed promote that name, with their fighting against locals' actual usage of "Civic Center". I agree with JB that "Civic Center" as a name would constitute "stigma", because the term does not convey residential or commercial prosperity at all, it perhaps conveys governmental stodginess instead. It was noted, but by Original Research only i think, that the "Golden Triangle" name shows up only from 1970s on, i think. The examples shared in the AFD support some of this, but also include stuff like the fact that the City of Denver has itself used the Golden Triangle term, perhaps without stodginess in their mind. Anyhow, this may be difficult, but I think it would help a lot to find and use sources explicitly talking about the introduction of the Golden Triangle term and explicitly about conflict/fighting among community forces about which name to use. -- Doncram ( talk) 16:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
For better or worse, what happened after Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Golden Triangle, Denver in 2019 and the requested move (also in 2019) above, was, I think:
I am now wanting to develop the Civic Center government buildings and plaza area one to cover, in appropriate detail, the NRHP-listed historic district and the smaller National Historic Landmark district that are within that area. Please don't anyone have a cow, but I will develop a bit at
Draft:Civic Center Historic District (Denver, Colorado), with expectation that the material will go into a section of the
Denver Civic Center article, and that
Civic Center Historic District (Denver, Colorado) will become a redirect to that section. [UPDATE: There's so much important to say, and so much detail available, that the draft article is going to be too large to merge in, so it will have to stand alone. Separate articles exist (or may yet be created) for many of its component buildings, but those contain (or will contain) more detail than appropriate for the historic district article. I will plan to provide summary about the historic district in the
Denver Civic Center article with a "main"-type link. --
Doncram (
talk) 21:08, 22 October 2022 (UTC)]
I'm not happy, but I see that two Denver Landmarks named "Civic Center" and "Downtown Denver" exist (per Denver's list of historic districts or landmark districts) which probably don't match up to either article, but they should be covered in Wikipedia. By the way it happens that Denver's "Civic Center" one includes a few individual Denver Landmarks (per Denver's list of individual landmarks) whose addresses put them far outside the government buildings area, i think. I don't know the boundaries of either yet, and I don't know Denver very well at all, but I'm going there soon and hope to upload some pics.
I hope, knock on wood, that it will become clear that the "Civic Center" one can be covered in one of the two articles that are going now, or in a section in the Denver Landmarks article itself, and I hope the "Downtown Denver" one can be covered in Downtown Denver. And I'm hoping to avoid ever using the phrase "Civic Center Historic District" as the proper noun name for Denver's landmark district in these and related articles. Instead I hope we can call it " Civic Center Landmark District" or " Civic Center Landmark District (Denver)" (currently redlinks which should be redirected to wherever the topic ends up). Denver's usage seems to be okay with calling them either "Landmark Districts" or "Historic Districts".
Pinging those with opinions in previous discussions ( User:Denverjeffrey, User:Bluedude588, User:Jeffrey Beall, User:Dekimasu, User:MB, User:Dicklyon, User:Britishfinance - though maybe you were just mediating) to update you, and to suggest further discussion if needed should be here on this Talk page. -- Doncram ( talk) 02:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)