This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The article is C and S L R but calls the line C & S L R. A link to "C & S L R" redirects to "C and S L R". What did it call itself?-- SilasW ( talk) 14:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
( [1] or [2]). The ampersand is just an abbreviation. The article was originally called City & South London Railway but it was moved because the & causes problems in the URL.-- DavidCane ( talk) 21:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
That allows this railway to either but some organisations select one or the other, taking & (=et) as an abbreviation seems to me not to allow & or and as the fancy (or software) goes - some brands are particular about using upper or lower case. What problems might & cause? So far I (perhaps blaming a square electron stuck in the circuit) have observed none.-- SilasW ( talk) 09:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
to start the second before the first completes. So, if a command is attempted such as
cat City_&_South_London_Railway
what we actually get is two half-commands, both of which fail:
cat City_
_South_London_Railway
--
Redrose64 (
talk)
17:01, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
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I think that the junction at Camden Town, drawn as it is with two triangular junctions, is misleading: it suggests that trains from the City branch may proceed via Euston, run round a loop, and continue via Mornington Crescent, back to Euston and so on to the Charing Cross branch. Similarly, that trains from Edgware may run to High Barnet (calling twice at Camden Town). Of course the junction isn't like that at all; see right for my proposed solution -- Redrose64 ( talk) 16:54, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
The first "deep-level" urban passenger railway was the Mersey Railway opened in 1886, not the C&SLR. The Mersey Railway is around 200 foot below high-tide mark. Claiming that the C&SLR was the first "deep-level", underground, urban railway is historically inaccurate - totally false.
James Street Station in Liverpool and Hamilton Square Station in Birkenhead were the first deep-level stations - accessed by lifts. Also the first bored out of solid rock, as all previous were cut and cover stations.
The first "deep-level" underground railway, was goods only in 1929 1829. The 1.26 mile
Wapping Tunnel in Liverpool, the first tunnel bored under a metropolis.
Cheers 79.65.94.24 ( talk) 12:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
What you are referring to is a *tunnelled section* of the Mersey Railway. Green Lane and Birkenhead Central stations were both above ground. thus it is not an "underground railway" (first or otherwise) though it did have the first underwater tunnel. The C&SLR was an end-to-end below ground throughout railway, and hence why it gets the accurate "first deep-level underground railway" description. -- AlisonW ( talk) 13:43, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
194.83.172.121 ( talk) 16:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
statements are cited to reliable sources, preferable published works rather than web sites.
run under a very deep and wide river that is 100 foot deep at low tide in the centre and 132 foot at high tide. Some of the world's largest ships sail over the Mersey rail tunnel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.115.96 ( talk) 00:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
stations built later, it seems a stretch to describe it as a system compared with the Budapest and Glasgow systems which are generally recognised as the second and third systems.
bordering on lunacy - like someone has an agenda. If the Mersey Railway was not a system well neither was the C&SLR. Read up on the Railway. You are trying to airbrush from history the Mersey Railway and its historical importance. The longest under-river tunnel in 1886 by a country mile. The deepest stations. First stations in service bored in solid rock. By 1892 the tunnel eventually from Birkenhead Park to Liverpool Central was 3.12 miles long - about a mile longer now it goes to Brunswick. The Mersey Railway is older than Glasgow and Budapest - once again 1886. 1886 is before 1892 and 1896. Was The Mersey Railway underground? Yes. Did it have underground stations? Yes. Did it have the deepest running trains in the world? Yes. Was it cut and cover? No. Was it all beneath ground level? Yes. Was it a system? Yes. BTW, a tunnel was to be bored from Woodchurch on the outers of Birkenhead to Birkenhead Central provision was made for it at Central. The headers were cut for a branch tunnel to Huskisson Dock in Liverpool. Both were not cut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.115.96 ( talk) 00:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
all want to be historically accurate, the Glasgow City and District Railway, opened 2 months after the Mersey railway in 1886, with a 3 mile cut & cover section. Well that makes it the third oldest underground railway in the world, after London, Liverpool and then Budapest after being fourth. I like to see it as it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.115.96 ( talk) 00:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC) Answering anon user's comments above:
claim is with regard to it being a tube tunnel, not its depth. There was nothing particularly exceptional with regard to the depth of the tunnelling, many earlier railway tunnels were dug through hills making them deeper beneath the surface (e.g. the Box Tunnel, which is 300 ft deep in parts). The sentence would read equally well without mentioning depth, but, as I wrote above, that mention is there to identify it as being different to the earlier cut and cover tunnels of the Metropolitan railway.
and Liverpool, both at sea level, the high tide mark. The Mersey Rail Tunnel was deeper than anything in London. Running through a hill at sea level leaves a lot of hill above, so not relevant.
stations makes a system. If you can find a published statement that it the second underground railway in the world to cite, I will be happy to accept that.
Railway in London, Later a part the Circle Line of London Underground. Some stations were open to the air. If the Mersey railway is to be dismissed by you as of no historical importance because two stations on opening were open to the air, then the tag that London's Metropolitan Railway was the world's first should be as well. The London "underground" railway opened with 7 stations with some open to the air. The Mersey Railway opened with 4 stations, three less than London, and some open to the air. Sounds similar doesn't it? The C&SLR was the first with two points: 1, using electric traction; 2. All stations not open to the air. The Mersey Railway was the SECOND underground Railway in the world. WITHOUT A DOUBT. Not Budapest.
far deeper than the Thames, so deep the stations either side needed hydraulic passenger lifts.
system than any other railway with stations separated by a section of tunnel. Nor is the GC&DR, which is simply a section of the mainline service running partly in tunnels.
Mersey Railway and 4.35 miles for the Severn tunnel).
vandals. I strongly recommend that you get yourself a user log-in.
-Cheers 79.66.107.92 ( talk) 23:05, 18 October 2009 (UTC) -- DavidCane ( talk) 03:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Interesting talk. Got me reading.
The article says it was the first deep-level railway. Not true, the Mersey Railway was. The C&SLR was the first "deep-level that was 100% undergound with no staions exposed to the air". That is what it was. In fact it was not the first deep-level railway, that goes to Mersey Railway. So, deep-level should be taken out of the article as world's first claim. The Mersey railway was all below ground level on opening in Jan 1886.
The Mersey Railway WAS the second urban undergournd railway in the world. It had 4 staions on opening and work ongoing to extedn. By the time Budapest was opened, the Mersey Railwaay extedn to the River Dee, although overland from Birkenhead Park.
The Severn tunnel was not opened before the Mersey rail tunnel. 11 months after.
I did some searching...intereting...
Merseyrail, similar to London Underground in having under and overground lines, metro and commuter rail. It is the second oldest urban, underground, railway in the world, however sections of the network are the oldest of any urban underground/overground railway in the world. The first underground section originated in 1886 - Green Lane to James Street.
The oldest electrified section dates from 1848, from Southport to near the old Exchange Station, now a part of the Merseyrail Northern Line. The oldest part of the London Underground dates from 1856, now part of the Central Line, an overground section. So older in parts than London Underground.
It gets better. The oldest diesel section of Meseyrail dates from 1830, being a part of the original Liverpool-Manchester Passenger railway, the world's first passenger railway, now a part of the City Line. This is to be electrified up to Manchester and design work has started.
If the 1829 Wapping Tunnel in Liverpool is brought back into use, it will be the oldest underground section of any urban railway in the world, beating London's Marylebone Rd underground section by 34 years. Proposals are about to recomission the tunnel and maybe cut a station into it. It was to be used in the 1970s, but budget cut stopped it. Branch headers were cut. It would be the oldest used tunnel in the world. The oldest used tunnel is the world is the 50 yard section of the original Lime St tunnel at Edge Hill, 1836. This is used by Mesreyrail urban railway as well as mailine. The 1.26 mile Wapping Tunnel is the second oldest rail tunnel in the world, used or not used, urban or not, right now. The first under a metropolis.
If the 1848 Victoria/Waterloo Tunnel in Liverpool is brought back into use, it will beat London's Marylebone Rd underground section by 15 years.
So, if the Wapping Tunnel is recommissioend, the oldest underground railway in the world will be Mesreyrail, not London's underground.
London Undergroudn claims to be the oldest undergound rail system in the world. London Underground dates only from the 1930s when all the separate rail networks were merged into one. Merseyrail did the same in the 1970s.
London's claims to many rail firsts are shot to pieces when a search on Liverpool is done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.83.172.121 ( talk) 13:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The article is C and S L R but calls the line C & S L R. A link to "C & S L R" redirects to "C and S L R". What did it call itself?-- SilasW ( talk) 14:45, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
( [1] or [2]). The ampersand is just an abbreviation. The article was originally called City & South London Railway but it was moved because the & causes problems in the URL.-- DavidCane ( talk) 21:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
That allows this railway to either but some organisations select one or the other, taking & (=et) as an abbreviation seems to me not to allow & or and as the fancy (or software) goes - some brands are particular about using upper or lower case. What problems might & cause? So far I (perhaps blaming a square electron stuck in the circuit) have observed none.-- SilasW ( talk) 09:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
to start the second before the first completes. So, if a command is attempted such as
cat City_&_South_London_Railway
what we actually get is two half-commands, both of which fail:
cat City_
_South_London_Railway
--
Redrose64 (
talk)
17:01, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
City & South London Railway | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I think that the junction at Camden Town, drawn as it is with two triangular junctions, is misleading: it suggests that trains from the City branch may proceed via Euston, run round a loop, and continue via Mornington Crescent, back to Euston and so on to the Charing Cross branch. Similarly, that trains from Edgware may run to High Barnet (calling twice at Camden Town). Of course the junction isn't like that at all; see right for my proposed solution -- Redrose64 ( talk) 16:54, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
The first "deep-level" urban passenger railway was the Mersey Railway opened in 1886, not the C&SLR. The Mersey Railway is around 200 foot below high-tide mark. Claiming that the C&SLR was the first "deep-level", underground, urban railway is historically inaccurate - totally false.
James Street Station in Liverpool and Hamilton Square Station in Birkenhead were the first deep-level stations - accessed by lifts. Also the first bored out of solid rock, as all previous were cut and cover stations.
The first "deep-level" underground railway, was goods only in 1929 1829. The 1.26 mile
Wapping Tunnel in Liverpool, the first tunnel bored under a metropolis.
Cheers 79.65.94.24 ( talk) 12:31, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
What you are referring to is a *tunnelled section* of the Mersey Railway. Green Lane and Birkenhead Central stations were both above ground. thus it is not an "underground railway" (first or otherwise) though it did have the first underwater tunnel. The C&SLR was an end-to-end below ground throughout railway, and hence why it gets the accurate "first deep-level underground railway" description. -- AlisonW ( talk) 13:43, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
194.83.172.121 ( talk) 16:54, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
statements are cited to reliable sources, preferable published works rather than web sites.
run under a very deep and wide river that is 100 foot deep at low tide in the centre and 132 foot at high tide. Some of the world's largest ships sail over the Mersey rail tunnel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.115.96 ( talk) 00:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
stations built later, it seems a stretch to describe it as a system compared with the Budapest and Glasgow systems which are generally recognised as the second and third systems.
bordering on lunacy - like someone has an agenda. If the Mersey Railway was not a system well neither was the C&SLR. Read up on the Railway. You are trying to airbrush from history the Mersey Railway and its historical importance. The longest under-river tunnel in 1886 by a country mile. The deepest stations. First stations in service bored in solid rock. By 1892 the tunnel eventually from Birkenhead Park to Liverpool Central was 3.12 miles long - about a mile longer now it goes to Brunswick. The Mersey Railway is older than Glasgow and Budapest - once again 1886. 1886 is before 1892 and 1896. Was The Mersey Railway underground? Yes. Did it have underground stations? Yes. Did it have the deepest running trains in the world? Yes. Was it cut and cover? No. Was it all beneath ground level? Yes. Was it a system? Yes. BTW, a tunnel was to be bored from Woodchurch on the outers of Birkenhead to Birkenhead Central provision was made for it at Central. The headers were cut for a branch tunnel to Huskisson Dock in Liverpool. Both were not cut. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.115.96 ( talk) 00:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
all want to be historically accurate, the Glasgow City and District Railway, opened 2 months after the Mersey railway in 1886, with a 3 mile cut & cover section. Well that makes it the third oldest underground railway in the world, after London, Liverpool and then Budapest after being fourth. I like to see it as it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.115.96 ( talk) 00:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC) Answering anon user's comments above:
claim is with regard to it being a tube tunnel, not its depth. There was nothing particularly exceptional with regard to the depth of the tunnelling, many earlier railway tunnels were dug through hills making them deeper beneath the surface (e.g. the Box Tunnel, which is 300 ft deep in parts). The sentence would read equally well without mentioning depth, but, as I wrote above, that mention is there to identify it as being different to the earlier cut and cover tunnels of the Metropolitan railway.
and Liverpool, both at sea level, the high tide mark. The Mersey Rail Tunnel was deeper than anything in London. Running through a hill at sea level leaves a lot of hill above, so not relevant.
stations makes a system. If you can find a published statement that it the second underground railway in the world to cite, I will be happy to accept that.
Railway in London, Later a part the Circle Line of London Underground. Some stations were open to the air. If the Mersey railway is to be dismissed by you as of no historical importance because two stations on opening were open to the air, then the tag that London's Metropolitan Railway was the world's first should be as well. The London "underground" railway opened with 7 stations with some open to the air. The Mersey Railway opened with 4 stations, three less than London, and some open to the air. Sounds similar doesn't it? The C&SLR was the first with two points: 1, using electric traction; 2. All stations not open to the air. The Mersey Railway was the SECOND underground Railway in the world. WITHOUT A DOUBT. Not Budapest.
far deeper than the Thames, so deep the stations either side needed hydraulic passenger lifts.
system than any other railway with stations separated by a section of tunnel. Nor is the GC&DR, which is simply a section of the mainline service running partly in tunnels.
Mersey Railway and 4.35 miles for the Severn tunnel).
vandals. I strongly recommend that you get yourself a user log-in.
-Cheers 79.66.107.92 ( talk) 23:05, 18 October 2009 (UTC) -- DavidCane ( talk) 03:05, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Interesting talk. Got me reading.
The article says it was the first deep-level railway. Not true, the Mersey Railway was. The C&SLR was the first "deep-level that was 100% undergound with no staions exposed to the air". That is what it was. In fact it was not the first deep-level railway, that goes to Mersey Railway. So, deep-level should be taken out of the article as world's first claim. The Mersey railway was all below ground level on opening in Jan 1886.
The Mersey Railway WAS the second urban undergournd railway in the world. It had 4 staions on opening and work ongoing to extedn. By the time Budapest was opened, the Mersey Railwaay extedn to the River Dee, although overland from Birkenhead Park.
The Severn tunnel was not opened before the Mersey rail tunnel. 11 months after.
I did some searching...intereting...
Merseyrail, similar to London Underground in having under and overground lines, metro and commuter rail. It is the second oldest urban, underground, railway in the world, however sections of the network are the oldest of any urban underground/overground railway in the world. The first underground section originated in 1886 - Green Lane to James Street.
The oldest electrified section dates from 1848, from Southport to near the old Exchange Station, now a part of the Merseyrail Northern Line. The oldest part of the London Underground dates from 1856, now part of the Central Line, an overground section. So older in parts than London Underground.
It gets better. The oldest diesel section of Meseyrail dates from 1830, being a part of the original Liverpool-Manchester Passenger railway, the world's first passenger railway, now a part of the City Line. This is to be electrified up to Manchester and design work has started.
If the 1829 Wapping Tunnel in Liverpool is brought back into use, it will be the oldest underground section of any urban railway in the world, beating London's Marylebone Rd underground section by 34 years. Proposals are about to recomission the tunnel and maybe cut a station into it. It was to be used in the 1970s, but budget cut stopped it. Branch headers were cut. It would be the oldest used tunnel in the world. The oldest used tunnel is the world is the 50 yard section of the original Lime St tunnel at Edge Hill, 1836. This is used by Mesreyrail urban railway as well as mailine. The 1.26 mile Wapping Tunnel is the second oldest rail tunnel in the world, used or not used, urban or not, right now. The first under a metropolis.
If the 1848 Victoria/Waterloo Tunnel in Liverpool is brought back into use, it will beat London's Marylebone Rd underground section by 15 years.
So, if the Wapping Tunnel is recommissioend, the oldest underground railway in the world will be Mesreyrail, not London's underground.
London Undergroudn claims to be the oldest undergound rail system in the world. London Underground dates only from the 1930s when all the separate rail networks were merged into one. Merseyrail did the same in the 1970s.
London's claims to many rail firsts are shot to pieces when a search on Liverpool is done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.83.172.121 ( talk) 13:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)