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What would happen if a Wikipedia editor copied content from Citizendium? Would that violate the Citizendium l icense? The Wikipedia license? Any other Wikipedia rules? Does a WP:RS cover this issue? -- SV Resolution( Talk) 16:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Info on Wikimedia's license change can be found here Rreagan007 ( talk) 20:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Now have that new license. Can we use Citizendium material now? Andres ( talk) 21:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
i think the alexa rank is now like 60k. can someone update it? i don't know how to reference it correctly... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.22.220.61 ( talk) 22:30, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
There is a new version of the number of articles figure available under http://en.citizendium.org/images/a/a8/Number_of_articles.png and a new version of the article creation rate figure under http://en.citizendium.org/images/7/73/Creation_rate_main.png. Could someone update it (I tried but I am not able to do it). Cheers, Clemens —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clemens2000 ( talk • contribs) 10:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
WikiProject Citizendium Porting has been proposed. If you would be interested in joining such a WikiProject and/or have comments on the proposal, you are invited to say so at the aforelinked proposal page. -- Cybercobra ( talk) 02:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
This following was moved from User:TakuyaMurata's talkpage:
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Citizendium. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Web Hamster 23:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
TakuyaMurata, please use the article's talk page to discuss the content issues. Once an editor has reverted edits in an article, people should stop warring over it; it doesn't do anyone any good. Everyone take a break from editing the article directly, and go to the talk page for discussion. Specifically, you should start a new topic on the talk page explaining what content you think should be added, and why you think it should go there. If I see further reverts on this article without discussion, one or both of you will be blocked (and you will be the first one to be blocked, since you were the first to add the content and because it is in violation of the reliable sources guideline). rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 00:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
There's a huge difference between his leaving the project, which would be of importance, and his not being very active in the last few weeks. Not everything that someone posts to a forum is important, You appear to lack perspective on this.- gadfium 01:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
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So after nearly three years CZ has a grand total of 112 "approved articles." I think that's a fair indicator that the project has failed. Sanger's claims in 2006 that CZ would soon rival WP have not been fulfilled. Also its claim to be more accurate than Wikipedia is unsound. The very first "approved" article I looked at, on W E Gladstone, says in its first line that Gladstone was a Scot, which is untrue since he was born in Liverpool. Would it not be reasonable to point these things out in this article? I'm aware that WP is reluctant to be seen to be critical of CZ, but facts are facts. Intelligent Mr Toad ( talk) 05:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
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I have not resigned. I explained why I have been inactive in the community recently. I remain Editor-in-Chief. Moreover, it should not be news to anyone that I intend to step down. I have said so, on a regular basis, since the beginning of the project, and my reasons for saying so have always been clear.
This coverage of the issue is both inaccurate and biased. I hope someone will fix it. -- Larry Sanger ( talk) 01:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
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After nearly three years CZ has 112 "approved articles." I think that's a fair indicator that the project has failed. Larry Sanger's claims in 2006 that CZ would soon rival WP and that there would be a rapid take-off in articles have not been fulfilled. Would it not be reasonable to point this out in this article? I'm aware that WP is reluctant to be seen to be critical of CZ, but facts are facts. (Since Larry Sanger is watching this article, he might like to comment on this.) Intelligent Mr Toad ( talk) 01:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Gosh, that's right. They have now ...wait for it ...117 articles approved. Gangbusters, eh. Of some 12,300 odd now in some form of draft. And if they choose to misrepresent progress by showing article creation rate as a measure, rather than the glacial article approvals, well who in the NPOV are we to judge! Bah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 12:57, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Bah. This Wikipedia article uses *exactly* the same misleading data on articles, in graphs and over-blown language. Spare me the NPOV, non-evaluation claptrap. Citizendium has 117 approved articles. It's whole point was approved articles, not volume of articles created. Its not rather moribund. It's terminal. Time to switch it off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 06:40, 8 October 2009 (UTC) a review the aims and message of this page is overdueHmmm... the number of articles 'fact' depends on your definition of article. By any reasonable definition, the figure here is foolish aggrandisement and propaganda. And as Mr Toad points out, CZ was established on the basis that it would 'rival' WP - in a few years. It has not been able to do so. His second point about the 'take off' of articles is also empirically demonstrable. Yet these points are brushed away with irrelevant rhetoric. Instead, I suggest we need to have a proper look at this piece to make sure that CZ hacks are not using it as a kind of publicity page. Gemtpm ( talk) 20:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
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Since when does this article need a "Current Status" established by a bunch of libertarians? Tim Lee's crying about no articles on libertarianism from an 11,800 article project doesn't have any place here. Wikipedia has 500 times as many articles, huh? Fascinating. I never would have guessed that when you take into account that there's millions of editors for Wikipedia. 3,000,000 fewer articles? Wow. Shocking developments. I thought Citizendium has only been in place a few years. I guess I must have miscalculated. Come on, people! This is a cause for the same thing that Wikipedia is trying to achieve--free knowledge. To try and send Citizendium into the ground would be hypocritical. I know what you guys are thinking. "But Wikipedia's article has plenty of criticisms." You got me there--except that Wikipedia can still thrive despite a little criticism. But I don't think that Citizendium can. It's too fragile. If you honestly think you're doing the article a service by blogging about CZ's status in a so-called encyclopedia, well, I hope you realize how out of balance the NPOV really is. 98.202.38.225 ( talk) 05:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
As the author of the first draft of the "Current status" section let me say that the comment about libertariansm was chosen merely to illustrate the question of Citizendium's range of articles. I'm not a libertarian. It was just the first relevant comment I came across. Citizendium made some bold predictions about its own future two years and the fact that they haven't been fulfilled needs to be noted in this article, as is now the case. Intelligent Mr Toad ( talk) 07:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The section called Current status is a violation of Wikipedia policy. None of the sources are reliable. Wikipedia admins do not enforce policy is a problem as shown by this page. Please show how references such as blogs or personal websites are reliable. If an editor alleges they are reliable then that is evidence they are not reliable. Please show in accordance with Wikipedia policy how each source is reliable. QuackGuru ( talk) 19:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
I made this change to remove the unreliable references. Only one reference was possibly reliable. QuackGuru ( talk) 18:44, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
2.5 Content in the Table of Contents seems to link back to the Contents rather than to Content (and I'm not content with this...) Rolf-Peter Wille ( talk) 18:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
To show 120 as "less than 1%" is simple arithmetic and factual - it cannot be construed as "editorialising", "original thought", "original research" or anything other than a plain arithmetic fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 06:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 08:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree that "less than 1%" is an editorialising way of referring to 120/12,590, because it implies "few". The problem would have been clearer if the numbers were 180/12,590. In this case we could say "more than 1%" or "less than 2%", depending on how we want to influence our readers. The funny thing is that "more than 1%" sounds as if we are impressed and "less than 2%" as if we are unimpressed by the number.
However, routine calculations are allowed, and so is straightforward reasonable rounding (although that's not made explicit anywhere, but sometimes it's even required, such as here). How about "roughly 1%"? Is that something we can all agree on? Hans Adler 18:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
120 Approved Articles is what the source says. How can we calculate 1% when there is no other numbers mentioned? "Category:Approved Articles". Citizendium. Retrieved 2009-07-09. QuackGuru ( talk) 18:59, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
You have adopted a contradictory and nonsensical position which shows a poor grasp of describing numerical data. The previous text said "more than 110". That wasn't editorialising? If not, then merely ludicrous imprecision at that order of size, in a number subject to change. The number *is* less than 1%. It is not editorialising to state a plain mathematical fact. You can deny it, decry it or deride it as "editorialising" but you cannot make it go away. If you wish to permanently hobble Wikipedia content from sensible and correct statements of proportion, so be it. It'll stand to the eternal discredit of Wikipedians. At some point the proportion will be "over 1%". And will someone then object to that as editorialising by implying "more"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 19:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
"Roughly 1%" is an estimate not a calculation. "0.95" is not a routine calculation. "Less than 1%" is editorializing. Original research is not allowed. QuackGuru ( talk) 04:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
1% failed verification. QuackGuru ( talk) 05:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Of course if you think what you added might be OR you are free to change policy. QuackGuru ( talk) 07:11, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
2005 minus 2002 = 3. I think this is a routine calculation. QuackGuru ( talk) 20:32, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This went against Wikipedia policy. It is impossible to get 1% using this reference. QuackGuru ( talk) 04:17, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
QuackGuru by his own admission is totally unqualified to make any remark or judgement at all on any issue where a basic grasp of numbers is called for. He should be restrained form making such remarks and edits. 120 out of a number over 12,000 is easily resolved by simple mental arithmetic without any need for a calculator, as a proportion less than 1%. Nothing he says will ever make it original research. It is merely a simple proportion, by mental arithmetic, and the most simple routine calculation. Nothing he says will ever make .95 anything other than "less than 1". That said, I'll accept the 1% as a necessary and sufficient solution. The preceding version, "more than 100" was a ludicrous statement to allow, at these orders of magnitude. This discussion and the attitude of QuackGuru reflects all that is unsatisfactory about Wikipedia. The at best unfortunate "more than 100" reflected all that is unsatisfactory about both Wikipedia and Citizendium and their respective claquers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.5.61 ( talk) 07:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
And before quackguru starts yet another rule war out of sheer numerical ignorance, observe as follows:
% is the symbol which, by long established and agreed definition, refers to proportion out of 100 - no original research there, and no calculation.
1 in 100 is thus 1/100 or (exactly) 1% - no original research there & no calculator. It's mere simple arithmetic, if that.
By simple proportion, then,
10 out of 1,000 *must* also be 1% (ie 10 times greater each side must retain the same proprotion). The laws of arithmetic - incl proportion - are not original research and are not complex computation either. So, likewise 100 out of 10,000 must then be again 1%, the proportion remaining the same. And 120 out of 12,000 is by the same rule therefore also 1%.
And if the bottom line - the larger no - is more than that? Well, the proportion *must* be, by the laws of arithmetic ... less than 1%!
No original research at any point. No calculator. No "complex calculation". Simple arithmetic and simple rules of arithmetic.
And by the way, his remark about averages is a complete nonsense too. I'm done with this. Its pretty well cured me of wikipedia as a useful way of gathering information.
It is impossible to get 1% using this reference. No reference was provided to verify the 1%. That's not all folks. It is a violation of WP:WEIGHT to include trivial assertions; also it is improper synthesis to claim 1% using reference A with reference B to come to a new conclusion C. QuackGuru ( talk) 18:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I have requested a reference but no reference was given to verify the text. The reference at the end of the sentence has the total number of approved articles. 120 approved articles does not equal 1%. It is impossble to make a calculation using the current reference. Please provide a reference or it is time for editors to move on. QuackGuru ( talk) 16:29, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Not so. QuackGuru has failed to follow either the Citizendium reference or Wikipedia practice observantly. The Citizendium reference is plain - a single link provides both numbers, directly through the Wikipedia Live Articles article structure, with both presentations including full cross-reference to each other - same source, then. See http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:CZ_Live . Both numbers are readily found there, under clear headings. The 1% issue is thus emphatically *not* synthesis of any kind, and there is absolutely nothing in Wikipedia Verifiability about this sort of presentation, nor in Wikipedia Synthesis. And yes, 1% is an *entirely acceptable* level of accuracy for the proportion here, even without qualification.
QuackGuru has changed the ground of his complaint at every one of his posts from the very beginning. On inspection, each one of his points has been proven invalid and in error, either in use or understanding of accepted arithmetic practice, or in understanding of documented Wikipedia practice. To disallow a useful, common-practice numeric comparison , readily seen and verifiable from the source, would set the worst possible Wikipedia precedent for future data presentation and understanding. Thoroughly bad practice.
End notes:
"The word "source", as used in Wikipedia, has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (an article...."
and
"Verifiability implies that any one can check the cited sources to verify the information stated in a Wikipedia article. This does not, however, mean that any one can do so instantaneously"
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:V
"Routine calculations. This policy does not forbid routine calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided editors agree that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the information published by the sources [see preceding quotes] from which it is derived."
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Synthesis#Synthesis_of_published_material_that_advances_a_position
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
121.79.40.142 (
talk) 21:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
For clarity, the sets of 125 and 121 posts are me - my IP is dynamically allocated by my ISP. As for the reference, it is abundantly plain that the single article http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:CZ_Live comprises a number of subsets - lists - all part of the one article, as shown by the abundantly prominent Citizendium Articles Lists box, repeated in the same form on every subset, as seen here http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Approved_Articles . SO both numbers can indeed be found from a single reference. It is otiose in the extreme to claim that this is some form of mutiple reference, and some sort of synthesis. It is not. It is a single article, in multiple parts, and Hans Adler has made valid points - pendantic to insist on repeated reference and eccentric to pursue a completely unfounded case, by repeated unfounded assertion. I have concluded from quackguru's repeated changes of ground and repeated failure to address any of the valid points raised in rebuttal that he is not posting in good faith. He is a troll. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.40.142 ( talk) 20:05, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
To make plain the article content to you, as it is to everyone else. You're wrong about both mulitple source and synthesis, as you've failed to understand the CZ structure and the WP rules. Still, in good faith, I've looked again at the CZ page and its underlying code, to find there available a single source, that brings all the lists (and thus the underlying two numbers) together: viz http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Article_Lists. You are in error in your understanding of the CZ article and of the WP rules. There is no violation. I'm done here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.40.142 ( talk) 20:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Not so. Verification, weight, sources, etc satisfied and explained numerous times. You fail to follow or grasp these or the thread as a whole, and you fail to follow or grasp the meaning of the CZ Live Articles article, or Wikipedia rules. As a final example, note your preceding comment: you deliberately misrepresent remarks made in robust debate on the *Discussion* page, as if they were a mischiveous amends on the *article* page. Bad faith. Bad practice. You are pursuing a rule war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.40.142 ( talk) 23:47, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
See WP:PRIMARY: "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." QuackGuru ( talk) 01:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I request a secondary source for the interpretive claim of 1% not found in the primary source. See WP:PRIMARY. QuackGuru ( talk) 02:00, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
I recommmend turning this Talk page into a new WP article, with the title "Why Citizendium was created". It needs no further explanation than your discourse here.
85.72.224.116 (
talk) 15:42, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Image is complete crap according to Rvcx. QuackGuru ( talk) 03:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Here. Reasonably detailed coverage of some recent events. Skomorokh 15:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
In March 2010, about 90 people made even a single edit. Compare Conservapedia, which is all but moribund, which has 76 editors in the last week at the time I write this. The difference is, the latter is pretty much a personal website. - David Gerard ( talk) 02:05, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Here is what Citizendium has taught me: Writing for a massively multi-moron encyclopedia is a lot more fun than writing for a very quiet professional one. While I prefer the latter in theory, I prefer the former in practice.
I think the problem is that Citizendium did not reach critical mass. If they had started with our user base and our Google rank they might have been successful. During some discussions about notability requirements in the German Wikipedia someone proposed to split Wikipedia into a more Citizendium-like Encyclopedia Galactica and a Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy with very relaxed notability rules.
Wikipedia has acquired a weight in the world that should permit us to recruit large numbers of top academics, provided we can create an environment where they want to work. I think the best strategy would be to start with a Wikimedia platform for (1) writing scholarly articles alone or collaboratively on a wiki, and (2) hosting peer-reviewed online journals (possibly even with print subscriptions handled by Wikimedia – an excellent chance to make a little bit of money on the side). Sooner or later the community of that project would come up with ideas for handling peer-review of Wikipedia articles, perhaps most straightforwardly by means of a "Journal of Encyclopedic Articles". Could this be a direction for Wikiversity? Hans Adler 09:48, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
This section seems awfully POV. It seems to subtly editorialize that the system citizendium uses is elitist, and further seems to emphasize the negative nature of such a system. Sithman VIII !! 02:11, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
I added a graph made by a RationalWiki contributor using numbers from Citizendium itself. RW doesn't pretend to be any sort of Reliable Source (it's functionally a multi-contributor blog/essay/community site that just happens to use MediaWiki) - but these numbers are trivially derived from Citizendium's own publicly available data. Trivial derivations from facts are allowed in articles without a citation to someone else having said it first; is this sort of thing a trivial enough derivation to stand? If not, what would be suitable? (Three editors making half of all edits is remarkable for a wiki project that passes notability muster.)
[For the curious: tons of graphs here and here, derived from CZ data.] - David Gerard ( talk) 16:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Jimbo has given a talk at this foundation, heres the link. The foundation has sponsored speakers which have referred to Wikipedia, but not Citizendium. The long now is dedicated to the idea of deep time, ie human development over the next millenia and beyond. Its interesting that they dont gravitate to citizendium, which is at this point more of a long term project compared to ours. Wikipedia has the momentum now, which means it may be the seed for some future grand scheme of knowledge storage and retrieval in the far future. Citizendium could be that as well, or the two approaches, in various incarnations over the next century, could work in synchrony. While citizendium may be near death, the idea it represents is still valid, and will influence knowledge S&R for a long time. I dont think this can be added to the article, but its a way of gauging the two projects. pure OR, POV, TLA, TIARA, etc. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 06:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Is it properly referred to as "the Citizendium" or just "Citizendium"? Are there any relevant guidelines on whether Wikipedia should honor their
insistent grammar? I note that Wikipedia doesn't currently follow Apple's practice of sometimes-nonstandard
article use regarding the
iPhone (e.g. "The iPhone is awesome!"). --
Cybercobra
(talk) 08:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Agree with your comment, so I removed what I wrote if I'm allowed to do that.-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 11:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
"The Citizendium community has ratified and certified the Charter to provide a solid framework for further development of the project." (from the main page of CZ) Boris Tsirelson ( talk) 09:46, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is a mishmash of stuff current as of various dates between 2006 and the present. Apparently no-one can be bothered going through and at least making it coherent, let alone up to date. Anyone reading this interested? Huw's had a good hack, but properly fixing it will be a significant rewriting effort. I have some well-known current personal conflicts with some CZ administrators (though get along fine with others) so would rather hold off doing such a rewrite myself for the sake of decorum - unless no-one else can be bothered, as it presently appears - David Gerard ( talk) 11:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
"The project aims to improve on the Wikipedia model by providing a reliable encyclopedia.[6] It hopes to achieve this by requiring all contributors to use their real names, by strictly moderating the project for unprofessional behavior, by providing what it calls "gentle expert oversight" of everyday contributors, and also through its "approved articles", which have undergone a form of peer-review by credentialed topic experts and are closed to real-time editing.[7][8]"
The first sentence quoted above fails verification. It says nothing about the "Wikipedia model", and therefore does not say anything about aiming to improve on the wikipedia model. The wording is bizarre/vague about "providing a reliable encyclopedia" as well. It actually states it wants to "to create the most reliable and largest encyclopedia...". However, removing the failed verification sentence would cause the next sentence to no longer make sense. Thoughts to improve this? DigitalC ( talk) 22:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm no editing directly as there may be a COI conflict as a former CZ EC member, but it might be an idea to update the article and infobox to reflect the current situation with the Tides Center: I think Tides have now been unaffiliated. I never really kept track of the management side of the site, but there are some questions over the legal status of the site. It may still be a Tides incubated project, or it may still be run by Larry. The RationalWiki page on Citizendium probably has more details (can't check: am on a cramped train writing this on the iPad.) — Tom Morris ( talk) 11:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I have read on a URL from Citizendium's home page that their financial situation is quite nearly 'hanging by a thread' (based on their current estimation, they will only be able to afford server space until September 22, 2011). I am letting others know so that there is a 'heads up' that I am adding this information. I'm adding a new sub-section under the History section. It will be entitled "Financial endangerment". I will only be adding a little bit to this section. I understand this is a nominated "Good Article", so I hope Being Bold in Good Faith for an anonymous user is not a violation of editing policies for Good Articles. Please discuss here if there are any concerns, and hopefully my preliminary edit (if that is what it ends up being) will help either get the ball rolling for a little bit of development on this issue, or will bring this to our editors' attention so that the article can be monitored if this information is not deemed necessary or pertinent. One other concern that I have is this: The source that I added may not qualify for Wiki's policies for valid sources. (I used a URL from Citizendium's homepage, as I'm not sure if any other web sites have this information available.) Thanks, 67.182.237.57 ( talk) 00:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I am the anonymous editor who started the "Financial endangerment" section. I need help with editing this section. Pending approval, I need someone to replace all the text in this section of the article with the following to reflect an updated edit:
"A financial report first got issued in November of 2010, and a new one gets issued on or near the 15th of each month for Citizendium. The page emphasizes their concern for a lack of funds. According to the Management Council's estimation, Citizendium will be able to afford to continue running the server until approximately November 22, 2011 (according to the recent April 15th financial report). Earlier, in March, the estimate was set to until September 22, 2011, so the April update indicates an extra month of remaining server run time."
I tried doing so myself, but everytime I preview the changes and test the updated source, it links to an Infobox edit, which doesn't make sense to me. I don't think the source was formatted correctly the first time I tried to format it either. Good luck, and please contact me if anything I have stated doesn't make sense. Thanks. Oh and any other feedback is also appropriate obviously. 67.182.237.57 ( talk) 22:56, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
CZ has silenttly - as far as I could see - moved from Beta state, and adopted a revised logo. The WP article sidebar needs updating. If anyone cares. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.213.138.24 ( talk) 09:41, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
The nature of the project is "Fork of Wikipedia"? Is that supposed to be a pun? Axl ¤ [Talk] 16:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I made significant changes to said section. If anybody still happens to care for this page besides those stupid bots, please review for POV. Sorry, I'm in a really foul mood because Citizendium probably won't be alive and kicking forever. I don't hate the big 'W', I actually love lots of things about it and am fascinated by many aspects of it; I just wish Cz & Wikipedia could co-exist in harmony. Oh well. B t w, bots aren't stupid--That odd comment reflects the frustration I feel for a quite well-done pseudo-fork of Wiki--though Cz ain't perfect. THE END 67.182.237.57 ( talk) 18:36, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
You did, but not for the better. Not NPOV and barely readable, thanks to poor construction and grammar. As for the "quite well done" claim above, well, hardly. Optimism and over statement, here or by the Citizendians, is no substitute for useful content. The battle for that was lost long long ago. CZ is an all-but empty bucket, poncing about the place under clunkingly poor & inexpert page design, with utterly glacial content progress, mired in an unending barrage of high sounding committee babble.
WhisperToMe ( talk) 00:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I understand that we should be neutral in point of view here, but I think it is important that we document some of the criticism that Citizendum has faced, especially from its own former contributers (see http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2006/09/an_expertfocuse.php#c20557). Normally I would create such a section myself, but due to the controversial nature of this article, I'll wait for consensus. Mr. Anon 515 18:51, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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Citizendium is barely alive. No-one is interested any more. The only place to get outside news on it is Rationalwiki, and it doesn't get much more insignificant than that. The last coverage in anything within a mile of WP:RS was Ars Technica in 2011 - where the last comment is from the article author noting "Wow. Two weeks already and no-one is defending Citizendium. The project really is dead."
So, we have a philosophical problem: how does Wikipedia cover the long tail of something that has clearly achieved notability in the past, but has none any more, and how can we be useful to readers who wonder "wow ... whatever did happen to X?" Conservapedia is a good example of another such article - David Gerard ( talk) 22:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
All said and done, Wikipedia isn't going anywhere, so it won't hurt to wait until we can cite more than just hearsay, rumour, and original research extracted from a few data points. If something's at death's door, chances are, it will die. So let's just hang on and see what happens. I think the end of the current state of the article gives a clue that it's in a fairly terminal state. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:03, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps we can primary-source growth figures? Pending a better source for the terminal illness, or the actual death of the patient. Killer Chihuahua 16:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Although I suppose the edit rates already given show that just as well... Killer Chihuahua 16:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
The "Financial endangerment" section could really do with some updating (as could the whole history section). Obviously they managed to get some funding from somewhere as we're now more than "several months" beyond November 2011. Thryduulf ( talk) 19:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
This article has several problems that make it fail the GA criteria.
Section: Fork of Wikipedia
Lots of speculation about events that were discussed, but never happened and almost certainly won't. The sentence "No announcement has yet been made on Citizendium editions in languages other than English, but Sanger has stated in his essays that they may be forthcoming after the English-language version is established and successfully working." is at best horrifically outdated, at worst outright misleading.
Secondly, there's some bits that come out of nowhere. Is the following relevant? If it is, can we have enough context to establish what, exactly, Sanger is reacting to from the book, since the context is completely left out:
“ | n a review of Andrew Keen's book The Cult of the Amateur, Sanger comments ironically on Keen's favorable treatment of Citizendium: "The first example of a 'solution' he offers is the Citizendium, or the Citizens' Compendium, which I like to describe briefly as Wikipedia with editors and real names. But how can Citizendium be a solution to the problems he raises, if it has experts working without pay, and the result is free? If it succeeds, won't it contribute to the decline of reference publishing? | ” |
If the above is relevant, it needs rewritten to provide the context. If it isn't relevant, throw it out. And, at the very least, it's in the wrong section.
Section: Contrast to Wikipedia
Violates WP:SYNTH. There's porobably a few reasonably-sourced points, but, in the main, the sources consist of 1. People criticising Wikipedia, but not mentioning Citizendium, with context framing these as problems solved by Citizendium. You can't do that. 2. Aspirational statements about what it's hoped Citizendium will achieve, presented without questioning or any backing material. 3. Compare and contrast - this source says Wikipedia does X, this other source says Citizendium does Y. Noone else links these, but we will anyway.
This is a fundamental violation of Wikipedia's policies on original research, and is enough to demote this article by itself unless this section is completely rewritten. As I said, there's probably a few validly-sourced points, but they look to be a minority.
Other
Sources range from acceptable to questionable - the history section directly cites forum posts without secondary sources, for instance, though you MIGHT just be able to get away with that. Lots of use of primary sources and Larry Sanger sources, which is fine to some extent, but there's little balancing material.
The article has one Citation Needed tag.
To be clear:
This article violates WP:WIAGA criteria 2c (Original research), 4 (Neutral), and 2b (reliable sources), and possibly 3b (does not stay focused on the topic) due to the somewhat random interjections of content (though that's probably more of an organizational issue. These need fixed, or it cannot remain a good article. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 03:11, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, I'll give this until the 29th or so for responses, anyway, unless there's a lot of pile-on concurs. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 21:59, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
We really need more up to date info in this article on basic stats etc. I am not in a position to do this now and have used the template to (hopefully) remind folks who are more familiar with the subject matter as to where to ferret out material. If there is no action in a few days I will revisit and try to find some. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 05:51, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
" ... (yes, they do have some paid personnel – including Jimbo who makes more than $50K per event where he is a speaker)."
That does not sound very neutral to me! Jonas Vinther ( talk) 19:57, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
I understand that this article has been edited recently and like all WP articles is 'under construction'. I understand it is hard to find reliable sources for recent How ever this article is out dated and I will add apropriate template. However the article doesnt provide info on current status of CZ (active, aborted...). (Apparently Citizendium has modest activity and is using a new server [see link]) :) Naytz ( talk) 04:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm making some updates, still needs work. Naytz ( talk) 04:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I have read both citations for the below statement from the Lead and neither of them make the claim that "approved articles are close to real-time editing". Plus the statement also seems confusing when it says "and are close". In what way are they close?
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I've been looking into this site and its story, and it's given me food for thought. A seemingly good idea, but one that floundered due to fundamental flaws in its structure. Technically it's still active, but it's mostly moribund at this point.
This article does a decent job of covering the launch and initial developments, but the section on later developments is somewhat lacking. From my observation, this seems to be a result of lopsided coverage by reliable sources -- many publications wrote about the launch of Citizendium, but few have followed up on its subsequent history. To be blunt, CZ is a failure, and I don't mean that in a spirit of negativity. Failures happen, and they offer important lessons. Of course, we can't just add unsourced speculation, but I still think it's an important theme to develop within the rules we work under. The Later Developments section should be expanded and organized to show how CZ fell far short of its goals, along with more information on the issues and flaws that determined its trajectory.
Personally, I think it was not one, but several fatal flaws that led to this outcome. The requirement of real names and the account approval process was discouraging for many editors. Excessive bureaucracy caused a great deal of inefficiency (as always) and led to a focus on government rather than content. While the site compares itself to a republic, its organization is more feudal in structure -- authors as peasants, editors as nobles, constables as knights, and Larry Sanger et al as the monarchy. If CZ had developed as planned, you would've had issues with static hierarchy and abuse of power. Then there's the format for articles, with frozen 'approved articles' and draft versions open to editing. This makes it cumbersome to alter approved articles, even if they are far from ideal. It also makes it easy to prevent contributions which might challenge a reigning editors personal views, which led to the proliferation of pseudo-scientific content. The emphasis on credentialism made matters worse, as did micro-management. And then there's the fact that CZ competed directly with Wikipedia as a general purpose online encyclopedia, so that anyone dissatisfied with CZ had an alternative.
I understand that this is WP:NOTAFORUM. The only reason I posted my personal thoughts is that they may be a useful starting point for digging up sources for better, more in-depth coverage of CZ's decline, so I hope you'll bear with me on this. Btw, I found the article on rational wiki to be fairly informative, with many sources, so that may be a good place to start digging. Xcalibur ( talk) 18:01, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
I added a new reference to the Later developments sub-section regarding the SNCR award. It will be Ref. #60 according to my edit beside Ref. #59 that contains dead-links as of applying this modification and writing this note. Thanks! -- Naeem2017 ( talk) 22:43, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I haven’t yet attempted to update the article. Anyone who wants to have a crack can use the refs above as a starting point. Pelagic ( messages · Z ) – (09:54 Sun 02, AEST) 23:54, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
What would happen if a Wikipedia editor copied content from Citizendium? Would that violate the Citizendium l icense? The Wikipedia license? Any other Wikipedia rules? Does a WP:RS cover this issue? -- SV Resolution( Talk) 16:52, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Info on Wikimedia's license change can be found here Rreagan007 ( talk) 20:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Now have that new license. Can we use Citizendium material now? Andres ( talk) 21:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
i think the alexa rank is now like 60k. can someone update it? i don't know how to reference it correctly... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.22.220.61 ( talk) 22:30, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
There is a new version of the number of articles figure available under http://en.citizendium.org/images/a/a8/Number_of_articles.png and a new version of the article creation rate figure under http://en.citizendium.org/images/7/73/Creation_rate_main.png. Could someone update it (I tried but I am not able to do it). Cheers, Clemens —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clemens2000 ( talk • contribs) 10:37, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
WikiProject Citizendium Porting has been proposed. If you would be interested in joining such a WikiProject and/or have comments on the proposal, you are invited to say so at the aforelinked proposal page. -- Cybercobra ( talk) 02:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
This following was moved from User:TakuyaMurata's talkpage:
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Citizendium. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Web Hamster 23:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
TakuyaMurata, please use the article's talk page to discuss the content issues. Once an editor has reverted edits in an article, people should stop warring over it; it doesn't do anyone any good. Everyone take a break from editing the article directly, and go to the talk page for discussion. Specifically, you should start a new topic on the talk page explaining what content you think should be added, and why you think it should go there. If I see further reverts on this article without discussion, one or both of you will be blocked (and you will be the first one to be blocked, since you were the first to add the content and because it is in violation of the reliable sources guideline). rʨanaɢ talk/ contribs 00:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
There's a huge difference between his leaving the project, which would be of importance, and his not being very active in the last few weeks. Not everything that someone posts to a forum is important, You appear to lack perspective on this.- gadfium 01:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
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So after nearly three years CZ has a grand total of 112 "approved articles." I think that's a fair indicator that the project has failed. Sanger's claims in 2006 that CZ would soon rival WP have not been fulfilled. Also its claim to be more accurate than Wikipedia is unsound. The very first "approved" article I looked at, on W E Gladstone, says in its first line that Gladstone was a Scot, which is untrue since he was born in Liverpool. Would it not be reasonable to point these things out in this article? I'm aware that WP is reluctant to be seen to be critical of CZ, but facts are facts. Intelligent Mr Toad ( talk) 05:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
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I have not resigned. I explained why I have been inactive in the community recently. I remain Editor-in-Chief. Moreover, it should not be news to anyone that I intend to step down. I have said so, on a regular basis, since the beginning of the project, and my reasons for saying so have always been clear.
This coverage of the issue is both inaccurate and biased. I hope someone will fix it. -- Larry Sanger ( talk) 01:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
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After nearly three years CZ has 112 "approved articles." I think that's a fair indicator that the project has failed. Larry Sanger's claims in 2006 that CZ would soon rival WP and that there would be a rapid take-off in articles have not been fulfilled. Would it not be reasonable to point this out in this article? I'm aware that WP is reluctant to be seen to be critical of CZ, but facts are facts. (Since Larry Sanger is watching this article, he might like to comment on this.) Intelligent Mr Toad ( talk) 01:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Gosh, that's right. They have now ...wait for it ...117 articles approved. Gangbusters, eh. Of some 12,300 odd now in some form of draft. And if they choose to misrepresent progress by showing article creation rate as a measure, rather than the glacial article approvals, well who in the NPOV are we to judge! Bah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 12:57, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Bah. This Wikipedia article uses *exactly* the same misleading data on articles, in graphs and over-blown language. Spare me the NPOV, non-evaluation claptrap. Citizendium has 117 approved articles. It's whole point was approved articles, not volume of articles created. Its not rather moribund. It's terminal. Time to switch it off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 06:40, 8 October 2009 (UTC) a review the aims and message of this page is overdueHmmm... the number of articles 'fact' depends on your definition of article. By any reasonable definition, the figure here is foolish aggrandisement and propaganda. And as Mr Toad points out, CZ was established on the basis that it would 'rival' WP - in a few years. It has not been able to do so. His second point about the 'take off' of articles is also empirically demonstrable. Yet these points are brushed away with irrelevant rhetoric. Instead, I suggest we need to have a proper look at this piece to make sure that CZ hacks are not using it as a kind of publicity page. Gemtpm ( talk) 20:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
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Since when does this article need a "Current Status" established by a bunch of libertarians? Tim Lee's crying about no articles on libertarianism from an 11,800 article project doesn't have any place here. Wikipedia has 500 times as many articles, huh? Fascinating. I never would have guessed that when you take into account that there's millions of editors for Wikipedia. 3,000,000 fewer articles? Wow. Shocking developments. I thought Citizendium has only been in place a few years. I guess I must have miscalculated. Come on, people! This is a cause for the same thing that Wikipedia is trying to achieve--free knowledge. To try and send Citizendium into the ground would be hypocritical. I know what you guys are thinking. "But Wikipedia's article has plenty of criticisms." You got me there--except that Wikipedia can still thrive despite a little criticism. But I don't think that Citizendium can. It's too fragile. If you honestly think you're doing the article a service by blogging about CZ's status in a so-called encyclopedia, well, I hope you realize how out of balance the NPOV really is. 98.202.38.225 ( talk) 05:21, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
As the author of the first draft of the "Current status" section let me say that the comment about libertariansm was chosen merely to illustrate the question of Citizendium's range of articles. I'm not a libertarian. It was just the first relevant comment I came across. Citizendium made some bold predictions about its own future two years and the fact that they haven't been fulfilled needs to be noted in this article, as is now the case. Intelligent Mr Toad ( talk) 07:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The section called Current status is a violation of Wikipedia policy. None of the sources are reliable. Wikipedia admins do not enforce policy is a problem as shown by this page. Please show how references such as blogs or personal websites are reliable. If an editor alleges they are reliable then that is evidence they are not reliable. Please show in accordance with Wikipedia policy how each source is reliable. QuackGuru ( talk) 19:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
I made this change to remove the unreliable references. Only one reference was possibly reliable. QuackGuru ( talk) 18:44, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
2.5 Content in the Table of Contents seems to link back to the Contents rather than to Content (and I'm not content with this...) Rolf-Peter Wille ( talk) 18:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
To show 120 as "less than 1%" is simple arithmetic and factual - it cannot be construed as "editorialising", "original thought", "original research" or anything other than a plain arithmetic fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 06:10, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 08:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree that "less than 1%" is an editorialising way of referring to 120/12,590, because it implies "few". The problem would have been clearer if the numbers were 180/12,590. In this case we could say "more than 1%" or "less than 2%", depending on how we want to influence our readers. The funny thing is that "more than 1%" sounds as if we are impressed and "less than 2%" as if we are unimpressed by the number.
However, routine calculations are allowed, and so is straightforward reasonable rounding (although that's not made explicit anywhere, but sometimes it's even required, such as here). How about "roughly 1%"? Is that something we can all agree on? Hans Adler 18:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
120 Approved Articles is what the source says. How can we calculate 1% when there is no other numbers mentioned? "Category:Approved Articles". Citizendium. Retrieved 2009-07-09. QuackGuru ( talk) 18:59, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
You have adopted a contradictory and nonsensical position which shows a poor grasp of describing numerical data. The previous text said "more than 110". That wasn't editorialising? If not, then merely ludicrous imprecision at that order of size, in a number subject to change. The number *is* less than 1%. It is not editorialising to state a plain mathematical fact. You can deny it, decry it or deride it as "editorialising" but you cannot make it go away. If you wish to permanently hobble Wikipedia content from sensible and correct statements of proportion, so be it. It'll stand to the eternal discredit of Wikipedians. At some point the proportion will be "over 1%". And will someone then object to that as editorialising by implying "more"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.254.92.69 ( talk) 19:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
"Roughly 1%" is an estimate not a calculation. "0.95" is not a routine calculation. "Less than 1%" is editorializing. Original research is not allowed. QuackGuru ( talk) 04:12, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
1% failed verification. QuackGuru ( talk) 05:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Of course if you think what you added might be OR you are free to change policy. QuackGuru ( talk) 07:11, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
2005 minus 2002 = 3. I think this is a routine calculation. QuackGuru ( talk) 20:32, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
This went against Wikipedia policy. It is impossible to get 1% using this reference. QuackGuru ( talk) 04:17, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
QuackGuru by his own admission is totally unqualified to make any remark or judgement at all on any issue where a basic grasp of numbers is called for. He should be restrained form making such remarks and edits. 120 out of a number over 12,000 is easily resolved by simple mental arithmetic without any need for a calculator, as a proportion less than 1%. Nothing he says will ever make it original research. It is merely a simple proportion, by mental arithmetic, and the most simple routine calculation. Nothing he says will ever make .95 anything other than "less than 1". That said, I'll accept the 1% as a necessary and sufficient solution. The preceding version, "more than 100" was a ludicrous statement to allow, at these orders of magnitude. This discussion and the attitude of QuackGuru reflects all that is unsatisfactory about Wikipedia. The at best unfortunate "more than 100" reflected all that is unsatisfactory about both Wikipedia and Citizendium and their respective claquers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.5.61 ( talk) 07:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
And before quackguru starts yet another rule war out of sheer numerical ignorance, observe as follows:
% is the symbol which, by long established and agreed definition, refers to proportion out of 100 - no original research there, and no calculation.
1 in 100 is thus 1/100 or (exactly) 1% - no original research there & no calculator. It's mere simple arithmetic, if that.
By simple proportion, then,
10 out of 1,000 *must* also be 1% (ie 10 times greater each side must retain the same proprotion). The laws of arithmetic - incl proportion - are not original research and are not complex computation either. So, likewise 100 out of 10,000 must then be again 1%, the proportion remaining the same. And 120 out of 12,000 is by the same rule therefore also 1%.
And if the bottom line - the larger no - is more than that? Well, the proportion *must* be, by the laws of arithmetic ... less than 1%!
No original research at any point. No calculator. No "complex calculation". Simple arithmetic and simple rules of arithmetic.
And by the way, his remark about averages is a complete nonsense too. I'm done with this. Its pretty well cured me of wikipedia as a useful way of gathering information.
It is impossible to get 1% using this reference. No reference was provided to verify the 1%. That's not all folks. It is a violation of WP:WEIGHT to include trivial assertions; also it is improper synthesis to claim 1% using reference A with reference B to come to a new conclusion C. QuackGuru ( talk) 18:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I have requested a reference but no reference was given to verify the text. The reference at the end of the sentence has the total number of approved articles. 120 approved articles does not equal 1%. It is impossble to make a calculation using the current reference. Please provide a reference or it is time for editors to move on. QuackGuru ( talk) 16:29, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Not so. QuackGuru has failed to follow either the Citizendium reference or Wikipedia practice observantly. The Citizendium reference is plain - a single link provides both numbers, directly through the Wikipedia Live Articles article structure, with both presentations including full cross-reference to each other - same source, then. See http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:CZ_Live . Both numbers are readily found there, under clear headings. The 1% issue is thus emphatically *not* synthesis of any kind, and there is absolutely nothing in Wikipedia Verifiability about this sort of presentation, nor in Wikipedia Synthesis. And yes, 1% is an *entirely acceptable* level of accuracy for the proportion here, even without qualification.
QuackGuru has changed the ground of his complaint at every one of his posts from the very beginning. On inspection, each one of his points has been proven invalid and in error, either in use or understanding of accepted arithmetic practice, or in understanding of documented Wikipedia practice. To disallow a useful, common-practice numeric comparison , readily seen and verifiable from the source, would set the worst possible Wikipedia precedent for future data presentation and understanding. Thoroughly bad practice.
End notes:
"The word "source", as used in Wikipedia, has three related meanings: the piece of work itself (an article...."
and
"Verifiability implies that any one can check the cited sources to verify the information stated in a Wikipedia article. This does not, however, mean that any one can do so instantaneously"
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:V
"Routine calculations. This policy does not forbid routine calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided editors agree that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the information published by the sources [see preceding quotes] from which it is derived."
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Synthesis#Synthesis_of_published_material_that_advances_a_position
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
121.79.40.142 (
talk) 21:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
For clarity, the sets of 125 and 121 posts are me - my IP is dynamically allocated by my ISP. As for the reference, it is abundantly plain that the single article http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:CZ_Live comprises a number of subsets - lists - all part of the one article, as shown by the abundantly prominent Citizendium Articles Lists box, repeated in the same form on every subset, as seen here http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Approved_Articles . SO both numbers can indeed be found from a single reference. It is otiose in the extreme to claim that this is some form of mutiple reference, and some sort of synthesis. It is not. It is a single article, in multiple parts, and Hans Adler has made valid points - pendantic to insist on repeated reference and eccentric to pursue a completely unfounded case, by repeated unfounded assertion. I have concluded from quackguru's repeated changes of ground and repeated failure to address any of the valid points raised in rebuttal that he is not posting in good faith. He is a troll. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.40.142 ( talk) 20:05, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
To make plain the article content to you, as it is to everyone else. You're wrong about both mulitple source and synthesis, as you've failed to understand the CZ structure and the WP rules. Still, in good faith, I've looked again at the CZ page and its underlying code, to find there available a single source, that brings all the lists (and thus the underlying two numbers) together: viz http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Article_Lists. You are in error in your understanding of the CZ article and of the WP rules. There is no violation. I'm done here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.40.142 ( talk) 20:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
Not so. Verification, weight, sources, etc satisfied and explained numerous times. You fail to follow or grasp these or the thread as a whole, and you fail to follow or grasp the meaning of the CZ Live Articles article, or Wikipedia rules. As a final example, note your preceding comment: you deliberately misrepresent remarks made in robust debate on the *Discussion* page, as if they were a mischiveous amends on the *article* page. Bad faith. Bad practice. You are pursuing a rule war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.79.40.142 ( talk) 23:47, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
See WP:PRIMARY: "All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." QuackGuru ( talk) 01:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I request a secondary source for the interpretive claim of 1% not found in the primary source. See WP:PRIMARY. QuackGuru ( talk) 02:00, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
I recommmend turning this Talk page into a new WP article, with the title "Why Citizendium was created". It needs no further explanation than your discourse here.
85.72.224.116 (
talk) 15:42, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Image is complete crap according to Rvcx. QuackGuru ( talk) 03:06, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Here. Reasonably detailed coverage of some recent events. Skomorokh 15:52, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
In March 2010, about 90 people made even a single edit. Compare Conservapedia, which is all but moribund, which has 76 editors in the last week at the time I write this. The difference is, the latter is pretty much a personal website. - David Gerard ( talk) 02:05, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Here is what Citizendium has taught me: Writing for a massively multi-moron encyclopedia is a lot more fun than writing for a very quiet professional one. While I prefer the latter in theory, I prefer the former in practice.
I think the problem is that Citizendium did not reach critical mass. If they had started with our user base and our Google rank they might have been successful. During some discussions about notability requirements in the German Wikipedia someone proposed to split Wikipedia into a more Citizendium-like Encyclopedia Galactica and a Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy with very relaxed notability rules.
Wikipedia has acquired a weight in the world that should permit us to recruit large numbers of top academics, provided we can create an environment where they want to work. I think the best strategy would be to start with a Wikimedia platform for (1) writing scholarly articles alone or collaboratively on a wiki, and (2) hosting peer-reviewed online journals (possibly even with print subscriptions handled by Wikimedia – an excellent chance to make a little bit of money on the side). Sooner or later the community of that project would come up with ideas for handling peer-review of Wikipedia articles, perhaps most straightforwardly by means of a "Journal of Encyclopedic Articles". Could this be a direction for Wikiversity? Hans Adler 09:48, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
This section seems awfully POV. It seems to subtly editorialize that the system citizendium uses is elitist, and further seems to emphasize the negative nature of such a system. Sithman VIII !! 02:11, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
I added a graph made by a RationalWiki contributor using numbers from Citizendium itself. RW doesn't pretend to be any sort of Reliable Source (it's functionally a multi-contributor blog/essay/community site that just happens to use MediaWiki) - but these numbers are trivially derived from Citizendium's own publicly available data. Trivial derivations from facts are allowed in articles without a citation to someone else having said it first; is this sort of thing a trivial enough derivation to stand? If not, what would be suitable? (Three editors making half of all edits is remarkable for a wiki project that passes notability muster.)
[For the curious: tons of graphs here and here, derived from CZ data.] - David Gerard ( talk) 16:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Jimbo has given a talk at this foundation, heres the link. The foundation has sponsored speakers which have referred to Wikipedia, but not Citizendium. The long now is dedicated to the idea of deep time, ie human development over the next millenia and beyond. Its interesting that they dont gravitate to citizendium, which is at this point more of a long term project compared to ours. Wikipedia has the momentum now, which means it may be the seed for some future grand scheme of knowledge storage and retrieval in the far future. Citizendium could be that as well, or the two approaches, in various incarnations over the next century, could work in synchrony. While citizendium may be near death, the idea it represents is still valid, and will influence knowledge S&R for a long time. I dont think this can be added to the article, but its a way of gauging the two projects. pure OR, POV, TLA, TIARA, etc. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 06:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Is it properly referred to as "the Citizendium" or just "Citizendium"? Are there any relevant guidelines on whether Wikipedia should honor their
insistent grammar? I note that Wikipedia doesn't currently follow Apple's practice of sometimes-nonstandard
article use regarding the
iPhone (e.g. "The iPhone is awesome!"). --
Cybercobra
(talk) 08:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Agree with your comment, so I removed what I wrote if I'm allowed to do that.-- Tomwsulcer ( talk) 11:13, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
"The Citizendium community has ratified and certified the Charter to provide a solid framework for further development of the project." (from the main page of CZ) Boris Tsirelson ( talk) 09:46, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
This article is a mishmash of stuff current as of various dates between 2006 and the present. Apparently no-one can be bothered going through and at least making it coherent, let alone up to date. Anyone reading this interested? Huw's had a good hack, but properly fixing it will be a significant rewriting effort. I have some well-known current personal conflicts with some CZ administrators (though get along fine with others) so would rather hold off doing such a rewrite myself for the sake of decorum - unless no-one else can be bothered, as it presently appears - David Gerard ( talk) 11:32, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
"The project aims to improve on the Wikipedia model by providing a reliable encyclopedia.[6] It hopes to achieve this by requiring all contributors to use their real names, by strictly moderating the project for unprofessional behavior, by providing what it calls "gentle expert oversight" of everyday contributors, and also through its "approved articles", which have undergone a form of peer-review by credentialed topic experts and are closed to real-time editing.[7][8]"
The first sentence quoted above fails verification. It says nothing about the "Wikipedia model", and therefore does not say anything about aiming to improve on the wikipedia model. The wording is bizarre/vague about "providing a reliable encyclopedia" as well. It actually states it wants to "to create the most reliable and largest encyclopedia...". However, removing the failed verification sentence would cause the next sentence to no longer make sense. Thoughts to improve this? DigitalC ( talk) 22:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm no editing directly as there may be a COI conflict as a former CZ EC member, but it might be an idea to update the article and infobox to reflect the current situation with the Tides Center: I think Tides have now been unaffiliated. I never really kept track of the management side of the site, but there are some questions over the legal status of the site. It may still be a Tides incubated project, or it may still be run by Larry. The RationalWiki page on Citizendium probably has more details (can't check: am on a cramped train writing this on the iPad.) — Tom Morris ( talk) 11:40, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
I have read on a URL from Citizendium's home page that their financial situation is quite nearly 'hanging by a thread' (based on their current estimation, they will only be able to afford server space until September 22, 2011). I am letting others know so that there is a 'heads up' that I am adding this information. I'm adding a new sub-section under the History section. It will be entitled "Financial endangerment". I will only be adding a little bit to this section. I understand this is a nominated "Good Article", so I hope Being Bold in Good Faith for an anonymous user is not a violation of editing policies for Good Articles. Please discuss here if there are any concerns, and hopefully my preliminary edit (if that is what it ends up being) will help either get the ball rolling for a little bit of development on this issue, or will bring this to our editors' attention so that the article can be monitored if this information is not deemed necessary or pertinent. One other concern that I have is this: The source that I added may not qualify for Wiki's policies for valid sources. (I used a URL from Citizendium's homepage, as I'm not sure if any other web sites have this information available.) Thanks, 67.182.237.57 ( talk) 00:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I am the anonymous editor who started the "Financial endangerment" section. I need help with editing this section. Pending approval, I need someone to replace all the text in this section of the article with the following to reflect an updated edit:
"A financial report first got issued in November of 2010, and a new one gets issued on or near the 15th of each month for Citizendium. The page emphasizes their concern for a lack of funds. According to the Management Council's estimation, Citizendium will be able to afford to continue running the server until approximately November 22, 2011 (according to the recent April 15th financial report). Earlier, in March, the estimate was set to until September 22, 2011, so the April update indicates an extra month of remaining server run time."
I tried doing so myself, but everytime I preview the changes and test the updated source, it links to an Infobox edit, which doesn't make sense to me. I don't think the source was formatted correctly the first time I tried to format it either. Good luck, and please contact me if anything I have stated doesn't make sense. Thanks. Oh and any other feedback is also appropriate obviously. 67.182.237.57 ( talk) 22:56, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
CZ has silenttly - as far as I could see - moved from Beta state, and adopted a revised logo. The WP article sidebar needs updating. If anyone cares. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.213.138.24 ( talk) 09:41, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
The nature of the project is "Fork of Wikipedia"? Is that supposed to be a pun? Axl ¤ [Talk] 16:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I made significant changes to said section. If anybody still happens to care for this page besides those stupid bots, please review for POV. Sorry, I'm in a really foul mood because Citizendium probably won't be alive and kicking forever. I don't hate the big 'W', I actually love lots of things about it and am fascinated by many aspects of it; I just wish Cz & Wikipedia could co-exist in harmony. Oh well. B t w, bots aren't stupid--That odd comment reflects the frustration I feel for a quite well-done pseudo-fork of Wiki--though Cz ain't perfect. THE END 67.182.237.57 ( talk) 18:36, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
You did, but not for the better. Not NPOV and barely readable, thanks to poor construction and grammar. As for the "quite well done" claim above, well, hardly. Optimism and over statement, here or by the Citizendians, is no substitute for useful content. The battle for that was lost long long ago. CZ is an all-but empty bucket, poncing about the place under clunkingly poor & inexpert page design, with utterly glacial content progress, mired in an unending barrage of high sounding committee babble.
WhisperToMe ( talk) 00:22, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
I understand that we should be neutral in point of view here, but I think it is important that we document some of the criticism that Citizendum has faced, especially from its own former contributers (see http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2006/09/an_expertfocuse.php#c20557). Normally I would create such a section myself, but due to the controversial nature of this article, I'll wait for consensus. Mr. Anon 515 18:51, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
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Citizendium is barely alive. No-one is interested any more. The only place to get outside news on it is Rationalwiki, and it doesn't get much more insignificant than that. The last coverage in anything within a mile of WP:RS was Ars Technica in 2011 - where the last comment is from the article author noting "Wow. Two weeks already and no-one is defending Citizendium. The project really is dead."
So, we have a philosophical problem: how does Wikipedia cover the long tail of something that has clearly achieved notability in the past, but has none any more, and how can we be useful to readers who wonder "wow ... whatever did happen to X?" Conservapedia is a good example of another such article - David Gerard ( talk) 22:20, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
All said and done, Wikipedia isn't going anywhere, so it won't hurt to wait until we can cite more than just hearsay, rumour, and original research extracted from a few data points. If something's at death's door, chances are, it will die. So let's just hang on and see what happens. I think the end of the current state of the article gives a clue that it's in a fairly terminal state. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:03, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps we can primary-source growth figures? Pending a better source for the terminal illness, or the actual death of the patient. Killer Chihuahua 16:13, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Although I suppose the edit rates already given show that just as well... Killer Chihuahua 16:15, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
The "Financial endangerment" section could really do with some updating (as could the whole history section). Obviously they managed to get some funding from somewhere as we're now more than "several months" beyond November 2011. Thryduulf ( talk) 19:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
This article has several problems that make it fail the GA criteria.
Section: Fork of Wikipedia
Lots of speculation about events that were discussed, but never happened and almost certainly won't. The sentence "No announcement has yet been made on Citizendium editions in languages other than English, but Sanger has stated in his essays that they may be forthcoming after the English-language version is established and successfully working." is at best horrifically outdated, at worst outright misleading.
Secondly, there's some bits that come out of nowhere. Is the following relevant? If it is, can we have enough context to establish what, exactly, Sanger is reacting to from the book, since the context is completely left out:
“ | n a review of Andrew Keen's book The Cult of the Amateur, Sanger comments ironically on Keen's favorable treatment of Citizendium: "The first example of a 'solution' he offers is the Citizendium, or the Citizens' Compendium, which I like to describe briefly as Wikipedia with editors and real names. But how can Citizendium be a solution to the problems he raises, if it has experts working without pay, and the result is free? If it succeeds, won't it contribute to the decline of reference publishing? | ” |
If the above is relevant, it needs rewritten to provide the context. If it isn't relevant, throw it out. And, at the very least, it's in the wrong section.
Section: Contrast to Wikipedia
Violates WP:SYNTH. There's porobably a few reasonably-sourced points, but, in the main, the sources consist of 1. People criticising Wikipedia, but not mentioning Citizendium, with context framing these as problems solved by Citizendium. You can't do that. 2. Aspirational statements about what it's hoped Citizendium will achieve, presented without questioning or any backing material. 3. Compare and contrast - this source says Wikipedia does X, this other source says Citizendium does Y. Noone else links these, but we will anyway.
This is a fundamental violation of Wikipedia's policies on original research, and is enough to demote this article by itself unless this section is completely rewritten. As I said, there's probably a few validly-sourced points, but they look to be a minority.
Other
Sources range from acceptable to questionable - the history section directly cites forum posts without secondary sources, for instance, though you MIGHT just be able to get away with that. Lots of use of primary sources and Larry Sanger sources, which is fine to some extent, but there's little balancing material.
The article has one Citation Needed tag.
To be clear:
This article violates WP:WIAGA criteria 2c (Original research), 4 (Neutral), and 2b (reliable sources), and possibly 3b (does not stay focused on the topic) due to the somewhat random interjections of content (though that's probably more of an organizational issue. These need fixed, or it cannot remain a good article. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 03:11, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, I'll give this until the 29th or so for responses, anyway, unless there's a lot of pile-on concurs. Adam Cuerden ( talk) 21:59, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
We really need more up to date info in this article on basic stats etc. I am not in a position to do this now and have used the template to (hopefully) remind folks who are more familiar with the subject matter as to where to ferret out material. If there is no action in a few days I will revisit and try to find some. Cas Liber ( talk · contribs) 05:51, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
" ... (yes, they do have some paid personnel – including Jimbo who makes more than $50K per event where he is a speaker)."
That does not sound very neutral to me! Jonas Vinther ( talk) 19:57, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
I understand that this article has been edited recently and like all WP articles is 'under construction'. I understand it is hard to find reliable sources for recent How ever this article is out dated and I will add apropriate template. However the article doesnt provide info on current status of CZ (active, aborted...). (Apparently Citizendium has modest activity and is using a new server [see link]) :) Naytz ( talk) 04:49, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I'm making some updates, still needs work. Naytz ( talk) 04:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I have read both citations for the below statement from the Lead and neither of them make the claim that "approved articles are close to real-time editing". Plus the statement also seems confusing when it says "and are close". In what way are they close?
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I've been looking into this site and its story, and it's given me food for thought. A seemingly good idea, but one that floundered due to fundamental flaws in its structure. Technically it's still active, but it's mostly moribund at this point.
This article does a decent job of covering the launch and initial developments, but the section on later developments is somewhat lacking. From my observation, this seems to be a result of lopsided coverage by reliable sources -- many publications wrote about the launch of Citizendium, but few have followed up on its subsequent history. To be blunt, CZ is a failure, and I don't mean that in a spirit of negativity. Failures happen, and they offer important lessons. Of course, we can't just add unsourced speculation, but I still think it's an important theme to develop within the rules we work under. The Later Developments section should be expanded and organized to show how CZ fell far short of its goals, along with more information on the issues and flaws that determined its trajectory.
Personally, I think it was not one, but several fatal flaws that led to this outcome. The requirement of real names and the account approval process was discouraging for many editors. Excessive bureaucracy caused a great deal of inefficiency (as always) and led to a focus on government rather than content. While the site compares itself to a republic, its organization is more feudal in structure -- authors as peasants, editors as nobles, constables as knights, and Larry Sanger et al as the monarchy. If CZ had developed as planned, you would've had issues with static hierarchy and abuse of power. Then there's the format for articles, with frozen 'approved articles' and draft versions open to editing. This makes it cumbersome to alter approved articles, even if they are far from ideal. It also makes it easy to prevent contributions which might challenge a reigning editors personal views, which led to the proliferation of pseudo-scientific content. The emphasis on credentialism made matters worse, as did micro-management. And then there's the fact that CZ competed directly with Wikipedia as a general purpose online encyclopedia, so that anyone dissatisfied with CZ had an alternative.
I understand that this is WP:NOTAFORUM. The only reason I posted my personal thoughts is that they may be a useful starting point for digging up sources for better, more in-depth coverage of CZ's decline, so I hope you'll bear with me on this. Btw, I found the article on rational wiki to be fairly informative, with many sources, so that may be a good place to start digging. Xcalibur ( talk) 18:01, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
I added a new reference to the Later developments sub-section regarding the SNCR award. It will be Ref. #60 according to my edit beside Ref. #59 that contains dead-links as of applying this modification and writing this note. Thanks! -- Naeem2017 ( talk) 22:43, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I haven’t yet attempted to update the article. Anyone who wants to have a crack can use the refs above as a starting point. Pelagic ( messages · Z ) – (09:54 Sun 02, AEST) 23:54, 1 August 2020 (UTC)