This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
The context is well defined, this is an official project proposal by one of the founders of Wikipedia. Announced today. conTEXT is very clear defined, WP:CSD A1 not met. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The current edition of this article is biased against Larry and pro-Wikipedia. Isn't the idea that Wikipedia is neutral on everything in articles, even itself?
Gosh, I'm surprised that this talk page isn't a hundred screens long (yet). Are all the American Wikipedians too busy watching football to check Slashdot?
Melchoir
17:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Nah, the problem is that American Wikipedian Slashdotters are too busy reading and posting on Slashdot to arrive at this forum in a timely fashion. Rydra Wong 18:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
But as an American Wikipedian Slashdot Troll (AWST?) I hereby edit this article. The Citizendium FAQ tried hard to be nice, but there was an obvious emphasis on how Wikipedia doesn't respect experts enough. Added/ King 21:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I commend your attention to the third edit to this page: a proposal for speedy deletion. The eloquent edit summary, reproduced here verbatim: "Huh?"
That's what Wikipedia has far too much of: "contributions" by people who know nothing. Some of us will be delighted to see that fixed. - ikkyu2 ( talk) 00:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
And there is more: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wizards_of_OS_4&diff=75913579&oldid=75913541
Yeah, that's wikipedia! Tobias Conradi (Talk) 12:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
His user page has somthing about this now: [1]. Is it allowed to add links for userpages on namespace articles?--- Scott3 Talk Contributions Count: 950+ 02:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone do translation on the armada of German news media that seem to be covering this, to expand the article further? · XP · 02:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Quoting from http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/homesteading/ar01s03.html
This kind of divergence is called a fork. The most important characteristic of a fork is that it spawns competing projects that cannot later exchange code, splitting the potential developer community. (There are phenomena that look superficially like forking but are not, such as the proliferation of different Linux distributions. In these pseudo-forking cases there may be separate projects, but they use mostly common code and can benefit from each other's development efforts completely enough that they are neither technically nor sociologically a waste, and are not perceived as forks.
cow_2001 22:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
From the article: "The stated aim of the project is to build up an expert culture and community that encourages academics to contribute and "citizens" to respect these expert contributions."
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.242.113.133 ( talk • contribs) .
That is not the stated aim. Please look at http://www.citizendium.org/essay.html and the FAQ for the stated aim. I request that this article be labelled as questionably non-neutral until this and other problems are fixed. --Larry Sanger
Ok, this is just a idea at the moment, nothing notable yet, so, why not merge it with Larry sanger for the time being. If is get wings, we can always split it off again. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I hereby found the AdInfinitium. While Citizendium defers to "experts," there's no recognition of the contributions of Gurus, demi-gods, Wizards, or even the cogniscienti. Expertise isn't a binary function. Ojcit 22:59, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is arguably dysfunctional community," which appears to be " committed to amateurism...for a community that has produced one of the best sources of information on the net...we sure take a lot of flack. Does this qualify as treason? Nobleeagle (Talk) 03:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I read on the article "Larry Sanger" that "In December 2005, Digital Universe Foundation announced that Sanger had been hired as Director of Distributed Content Programs,[3] where he will lead the Digital Universe Encyclopedia content resource of the larger web project to be launched in early 2006.[4] Unlike Wikipedia, the Digital Universe encyclopedia plans to bring in recognized experts to certify the accuracy of user-submitted articles as well as to write articles themselves." Since I read in the FAQ of citizendium.org that Citizendium is not related to Digital Universe Foundation, and that Sanger's role in Digital Universe Foundation is supposed to be a professional one, even if the Foundation should be non-profit, isn't there a danger of a conflict of interests? Does anybody know any sources about this issue? Or maybe Sanger is no longer involved in Digital Universe Foundation? -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.104.143.109 ( talk • contribs) .
Indeed I was just asking if anybody knew about some "discussion of such a conflict published somewhere", or to update the article "Larry Sanger" in case its namesake wasn't a DUF employee anymore. I wasn't soliciting original points of view on the issue.
This article doesn't have much information about the subject, but that's because the subject is so new that there simply isn't much information. I don't see much room for expansion until there are further developments -- and there's enough interest among Wikipedians that I suspect any developments will be added to the article quite promptly. I suggest removing the "stub" tag. JamesMLane t c 18:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed [3]. Is there a source for it somewhere? -- HappyCamper 15:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
He calls his administrators "Constables", minimum qualification, "four-year college degree". Fred Bauder 23:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
"If you don't see the reason in that, then I encourage you to stop attempting to shape policy for the Citizendium, and stick with Wikipedia. This isn't the project for you." Fred Bauder 01:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
"I figured that I would catch a little flak on this, but I am sticking by my guns, and I hope to hear from those of you who support me on this.
Constables must both work closely with editors and be *excellent* judges for the general public. In a knowledge-oriented project, this is a job that is *emphatically not* merely one of conflict mediator. It is one that requires, quite simply, a great deal of practical wisdom. So in fact I would be more inclined to put an age limit--say, 25 years old--before I would put a requirement of a college degree.
The point is that, in an open, scalable, rapidly-growing community, we have a *practical* need of objective indicators of this practical wisdom. Age and formal education are obviously imperfect indicators, but they are indicators.
What remains open to negotiation is the specific configuration of requirements for being a constable. I *can* imagine a set of qualifications that allows someone to be a constable who doesn't possess a college degree. My point is that the minimum education and maturity level of constables is indicated by the possession of a college degree.
What is completely unacceptable to me is, for example, a callow 20-year-old college undergraduate making key enforcement decisions that directly affect the motivation of a 50-year-old college professor to participate in the Citizendium.
If you don't see the reason in that, then I encourage you to stop attempting to shape policy for the Citizendium, and stick with Wikipedia. This isn't the project for you."
Rather different IMHO.-- Phil Wardle 02:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
NB like it says: This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. Please talk to the article and its improvement. Charles Matthews 10:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Whats the right way to cite these, until they are archived somewhere? And after? · XP · 23:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Can nobody else see the obserdety is creating a "better than wiki" starting out using wiki and then going into it's own website to become bigger and better than wiki?
Wikipedia is already here! Alan2here 16:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I know this is not meant to be a forum, so please forgive me, but I have to mention the rejection I got from the Citizendium mailing list when I asked some questions about the appointment of
Bernard Haisch as editor in chief. Reply "Posting of your message titled "Bernard Haisch" has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request: "We are not going to have a thread on citizendium-l about Bernard Haisch. Sorry."
Dbuckner
17:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC) Edward Buckner
Guys - this is not the place to hash over all the controversies. In line with the page warning, I will happily cut out whole threads here that do not conform to the principle, that this page is for discussion of the article. We do not create Talk pages as a magnet for all sorts of passing comment and trolling. Please bear that in mind. Charles Matthews 09:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
As Fred Bauder said above: We want a neutral article that chronicles the developing project. Absolutely right, and a test of NPOV. When you say I have to mention the rejection I got from the Citizendium mailing list, I must disagree. You write
Most people would count this as 'stirring', and I'll trouble you and others to keep such edits off WP. You don't even have your facts straight ( User:Hillman is editing today, I'm glad to say). Charles Matthews 14:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
In the article I've eliminated all dates for hardware set-up, beta testing, full launch, and basically anything else except the original announcement and Haisch's appointment, per Larry's e-mail of September 27 on the launch plan. I'll watch the CZ mailing list and forums for future announcements of any dates. Casey Abell 12:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states: "The stated aim of the project is to create an expert culture and a community that encourages subject specialists (presently named as 'editors') to contribute, and 'citizens' (to be called 'authors') to 'respect' the expert contributions. . . ".
But isn't that confusing method and purpose? The purpose, as stated in the project announcements, is to create a "new compendium of knowledge", a "citizen's compendium of everything". Hope this is not being too nit-picky. :-) JFPerry 17:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Larry just posted a long, rather rambling comment on the CZ mailing list that apparently was intended to clear up the editing rules, which so far have remained incredibly hazy. Unfortunately, the post is so hedged with reservations and OTOH's that I really don't see how I can update the article with anything definite. Apparently, Larry wants a two-fold article approval process from the subject expert "editor" and the (I think) style expert "copy-editor". But the article would still be open to editing even after both these people signed off with approval notices. At least that's what he seems to be saying.
We may have to wait for the actual launch of the project, which continues to recede into the future, to see how the editing rules actually develop. I'd like to put some more specifics into the article, but the editing rules still look hopelessly vague to me.
In fact, I'm having second thoughts about a change I recently made. I wrote that Sanger favors a complete fork of the English-language WP instead of importing only selected articles. Other posters on the CZ mailing list keep bashing WP's quality, and they argue that only a small percentage of articles are even worth working on. So far Larry seems to be sticking to a complete fork, so I won't change the article. But as usual with CZ, stay tuned.
One other thing: apparently an announcement of the identity of the "Chief Constable" is upcoming. I'll keep a lookout for the news, because this is at least one specific thing we can put in the article. Casey Abell 22:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
It is fun to drop in on the CZ forum and mailing list. Larry and the gang are always coming up with ideas for the encyclopedia to be launched later. In fact, the latest idea shows some impatience: import a few WP articles into Larry's already existing Textop wiki and, well, start editing them. After all, Larry and the would-be CZers have been chewing the fat for a while now, and some of them want to get busy on some actual encyclopedia articles, dammit.
Can't put any of this into the article yet, because Larry is only thinking it over. And in a very top-down project like CZ, nothin' ain't nothin' until Larry says so. But I really hope this idea gets somewhere, and fast. It would provide some content for the article besides endless versions of "to be decided later". Watching the CZ folks actually work on some entries would let us put a little genuine meat on the article's bones. Not to mention that we could see if any of the content got spooned back to WP after the fork, which would make a whole new interesting section of the article. As I've said before, stay tuned. Casey Abell 22:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello,
I've created the page Wikipedia:Comments on Citizendium (and its accompanying talk page), for discussion of Citizendium itself--its potential impact on Wikipedia, its editorial policies, and its personalities. I did this so this talk page can be about the article, and not about the article's subject.
Normally, such an action would be inappropriate--Wikipedia is WP:NOT a web forum or chatroom; and most articles have subjects which have little bearing on Wikipedia itself. I certainly wouldn't create an article such as Wikipedia:Big Bang wherein armchair (or professional FTM) physicists can debate the origins of the Universe without any regard to encyclopedic content--such a subject is irrelevant to the workings of the encyclopedia, and is only of interest to the Wikipedia project as a subject to document in the encyclopedia. A debate on the Big Bang itself is not appropriate for any part of Wikipedia; this is probably true for most subjects we cover. However, this topic is much more relevant to the "meta-" side of the house; thus finding a home for discussion on the project may be appropriate.
Of course, those who disagree vehemently with my WP:BOLD action are welcome to take the matter to WP:MfD; I understand full well that I am pushing the envelope a bit. This should not be construed as a generic means to move irrelevant debates out of article talk pages.
Assuming that Wikipedia:Comments on Citizendium survives, though--it, not here, is the place to discusses Citizendium qua Citizendium; rather than the present encyclopedia article.
-- EngineerScotty 02:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Larry has put out a fairly detailed pilot proposal that apparently is meant to blossom into the full-blown wiki. It looks very private and password-protected, so prying eyes won't be able to see much of what is going on. Whether GFDL content from Wikipedia can be used in such a hush-hush manner is for the lawyers to decide. Anyway, I've summarized the proposal in the history section and cited everything. I've also given Larry's loose deadlines for the launch of the fully functioning encyclopedia. Casey Abell 04:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Added a link to a brief Nature article (remember Wikipedia vs. Britannica?) about CZ, via Larry on the mailing list. The article says the CZ pilot will launch next week, but I've learned my lesson about putting dates into the article. Larry first talked about getting the wiki running by the end of September. Monday he was talking about getting the pilot running this week. Now the pilot is next week, maybe. Deadlines slide like southern California mud on CZ, and I'm not even comfortable with Larry's very vague language ("one to two months") currently in the article for the actual launch of the project. Casey Abell 19:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Rearranged the article to get "Nature of the Project" material up front. The basic stuff was getting pushed further and further down by the lengthening "History" section. If and when things settle out and CZ actually gets going, it will be possible to put the "Nature" material into more polished and concise form, without all the endless qualifiers now necessary. The "History" section can also get boiled down once the project progresses further. Casey Abell 18:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
In my last edit, I removed the above sentence from the article. It strikes me as being a speculation of the author who published it. I did not see any discussion of this issue in the document to which the reference following that sentence pointed.
Meanwhile, I don't think it is unclear whether this can or cannot be done under the terms of the GFDL. If I were to take some source code and work with it on my computer, privately and away from public scrutiny, is that not okay? Presumably, a small group could also do this as part of the development process, only sharing their work when it is advanced enough. The pilot proposal to work a limited number of WP articles by a small group as a test for a limited time is clearly not a problem (at least, it does not seem so to me). If Richard Stallman or someone like that weighs in and says it is, then that is another matter. Until then . . . JFPerry 22:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you have misunderstood the nature and meaning of the GFDL. It does not require that any derivative work of a GFDL-licensed document be available to anyone, at any time, as you seem to think. It requires that anyone who gets a copy of the derivative work can distribute it without any restrictions; this is very different. There is the famous "technical measures" clause, which complicates things, but, considering the statement from the GPL FAQ above, I strongly doubt that the FSF intended (or intends) the clause to require public distribution of deriviative works. There is absolutly no problem with making a copy of a Wikipedia article, modifying it, and giving the modified copy only to your friends, and refusing to give a copy to some stranger who asks you for one. What you can't do is prevent your friends from giving the stranger a copy (if they want to). AFAIK, there is no restriction on people who are able to read the pilot project site distributing what they read - that's all that is required by the license. Please do not spread misunderstandings like this. Thanks! 71.128.189.182 01:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC) (actually, User:JesseW/not logged in)
"...a Citizendium Foundation which is yet to be founded." Well, it has been founded; some of its members have been listed in the first press release; it's just that it has applied for, yet not received, 501(c)(3) status. Please make an effort to be unbiased with this article. -- Larry Sanger 21:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
well, uh, i don't mean to sound naive (but i probably do), but can an article stay if the thing it's about doesn't exist yet? i keep checking the site, and i get bumpkis. this seems more like a article on gossip than anything corporeal. JoeSmack Talk( p-review!) 07:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Some media stories cropped up in response to Larry's October 17 press release about the encyclopedia to be seen later. I included some of the more interesting ones in the article under the comments section. Also got rid of the tiny "linguistic spread" section and transferred the content to the first section. Casey Abell 12:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The present "Comments" section is yet another example of vain Wikipedian navel-gazing: rather than discuss the substantive comments that people have made about the project, nearly the entire section is about the relationship between WP and CZ, and particularly about the relationship between Jimmy and me. Are you an encyclopedia or a tabloid? "Other published comments have emphasized the rivalry between Sanger and Wales." Actually, only a few stories have even mentioned this, so this issue doesn't deserve the pride of place it is given here. If you look, you'll see that most of the stories don't even mention a "rivalry," as well they shouldn't, because on my side there is no rivalry, and I doubt there is on his; instead, matters are precisely as Jimmy described them, a difference in vision. I have no desire to be Jimmy's rival. As always, I wish him and Wikipedia all the best. Now, of course, I wish CZ the resource to outdo WP the resource, but that doesn't mean there's a personal rivalry by Jimmy and me. Frankly, that's just silly. -- Larry Sanger 21:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
David Marshall, the newly appointed managing editor, is asking would-be CZ-ers to start writing articles on Larry's textop wiki. This seems to be a way of getting more people involved while the Select Group works on the very private pilot project. Larry thought about the same idea a while ago, but then it went into hibernation.
A few articles have appeared on Textop: the WP article on Bach, one of Jon Awbrey's obscurer (!) versions of WP's C.S. Peirce article, and a stub on Tony Blair. It's a little odd to see all those red links in the transplanted WP articles. There's not much to write about yet, but I did add a couple paragraphs to the article on Marshall's suggestion. Casey Abell 22:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added some material to the "Pilot project implementation" subsection about edits on the Johann Sebastian Bach article, which was forked to the Textop wiki here. Of course, I can't write directly about the pilot project because it is off-limits to public view. But some of the things that happened on Textop—the accuracy disclaimer, the acknowlegement notice, the link back to WP, and the GFDL statement—may become standard on CZ. It's nice to have at least a bit of actual encyclopedia-writing to discuss. Casey Abell 18:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
From Peter's comments at forge.citizendium.org and posts by Jason and Larry on Citizendium-l, it appears the pilot is now functioning. I like the CaesarWiki nickname for the pilot, even if Jason doesn't ("CZ-er", get it?) Of course, nobody on the planet except the "20", as Peter dubs them, can directly report on the pilot. In fact, the identities of the "20" haven't even been disclosed. We'll just have to pick up what we can about the pilot from the CZ mailing list and web forum and forge.citizendium.org—and from any public releases of material derived from WP under the GFDL. As more people get invited to the pilot, maybe more info will become available. Casey Abell 15:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I left alone the comment that Jon Awbrey is "working closely" with Larry on CZ editorial policy. It's true that they've had some discussions about editorial policy on the Textop wiki. However, Awbrey does not appear to be a CZ insider. In particular, he doesn't seem to have access yet to the tightly controlled pilot project, which is why he's posting on the publicly accessible Textop wiki. According to comments on the CZ web forum, the pilot will be opened up to a wider range of participants within the next few days, though it appears that public access is still not close. It will be interesting to see if Awbrey gets into the pilot. Casey Abell 18:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know what happened to David Marshall? He does not seem to be registered at the Citizendium Forum or Textop Wiki anymore. Farmer Kiss 20:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It's a sad habit of mine to try to get things right—must keep taking the tablets. As to the proposal, I think wikis should actively take on the commercial publishers across the board of news, current interest, and more popular forms like comics. If Wikpedia can start at the top and do encyclopaedias, then it (or a group to be formed) should be interested in crossing over into all other published formats. Naturally, I have a plan to manage the risks. David Marshall 13:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Larry has released the first draft of his policy outline. On the Citizendium blog he specifically asked that this article not make hard-and-fast statements based on the provisional outline. (Larry's request is quoted in a footnote to the article.) Fair enough, though I have added some general comments that there will be dispute-resolution procedures on CZ. I have not gone into the details of those processes, which don't seem to have been nailed down completely yet. Of course, others are welcome to modify the article based on Larry's outline. Casey Abell 13:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Granted that Citizendium rolls off the tongue better than Citizenipedia, but still, shouldn't the latter be the more consistant name? Tabletop 01:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The main page of the pilot project is now accessible to the public, though everything else on the pilot remains sealed off. I put the link in the article. On the CZ blog Larry gave some figures for work on the pilot. I didn't put them in the article because they will date so quickly. The CZ web forum also has a list of articles being actively edited on the pilot, but again that list will date quickly. This thread includes a discussion about releasing pilot material in public (see a similar discussion above). Larry sounds dead set against any public releases, as does Zach.
In general, I'm going to boil down the sections of the article on the pilot, once CZ goes public. Not much else is happening in public right now, except the usual comments on the CZ mailing list about how terrible Wikipedia is (smile). Casey Abell 19:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
The context is well defined, this is an official project proposal by one of the founders of Wikipedia. Announced today. conTEXT is very clear defined, WP:CSD A1 not met. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 17:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The current edition of this article is biased against Larry and pro-Wikipedia. Isn't the idea that Wikipedia is neutral on everything in articles, even itself?
Gosh, I'm surprised that this talk page isn't a hundred screens long (yet). Are all the American Wikipedians too busy watching football to check Slashdot?
Melchoir
17:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Nah, the problem is that American Wikipedian Slashdotters are too busy reading and posting on Slashdot to arrive at this forum in a timely fashion. Rydra Wong 18:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
But as an American Wikipedian Slashdot Troll (AWST?) I hereby edit this article. The Citizendium FAQ tried hard to be nice, but there was an obvious emphasis on how Wikipedia doesn't respect experts enough. Added/ King 21:45, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I commend your attention to the third edit to this page: a proposal for speedy deletion. The eloquent edit summary, reproduced here verbatim: "Huh?"
That's what Wikipedia has far too much of: "contributions" by people who know nothing. Some of us will be delighted to see that fixed. - ikkyu2 ( talk) 00:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
And there is more: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wizards_of_OS_4&diff=75913579&oldid=75913541
Yeah, that's wikipedia! Tobias Conradi (Talk) 12:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
His user page has somthing about this now: [1]. Is it allowed to add links for userpages on namespace articles?--- Scott3 Talk Contributions Count: 950+ 02:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone do translation on the armada of German news media that seem to be covering this, to expand the article further? · XP · 02:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Quoting from http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/homesteading/ar01s03.html
This kind of divergence is called a fork. The most important characteristic of a fork is that it spawns competing projects that cannot later exchange code, splitting the potential developer community. (There are phenomena that look superficially like forking but are not, such as the proliferation of different Linux distributions. In these pseudo-forking cases there may be separate projects, but they use mostly common code and can benefit from each other's development efforts completely enough that they are neither technically nor sociologically a waste, and are not perceived as forks.
cow_2001 22:23, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
From the article: "The stated aim of the project is to build up an expert culture and community that encourages academics to contribute and "citizens" to respect these expert contributions."
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.242.113.133 ( talk • contribs) .
That is not the stated aim. Please look at http://www.citizendium.org/essay.html and the FAQ for the stated aim. I request that this article be labelled as questionably non-neutral until this and other problems are fixed. --Larry Sanger
Ok, this is just a idea at the moment, nothing notable yet, so, why not merge it with Larry sanger for the time being. If is get wings, we can always split it off again. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I hereby found the AdInfinitium. While Citizendium defers to "experts," there's no recognition of the contributions of Gurus, demi-gods, Wizards, or even the cogniscienti. Expertise isn't a binary function. Ojcit 22:59, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is arguably dysfunctional community," which appears to be " committed to amateurism...for a community that has produced one of the best sources of information on the net...we sure take a lot of flack. Does this qualify as treason? Nobleeagle (Talk) 03:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I read on the article "Larry Sanger" that "In December 2005, Digital Universe Foundation announced that Sanger had been hired as Director of Distributed Content Programs,[3] where he will lead the Digital Universe Encyclopedia content resource of the larger web project to be launched in early 2006.[4] Unlike Wikipedia, the Digital Universe encyclopedia plans to bring in recognized experts to certify the accuracy of user-submitted articles as well as to write articles themselves." Since I read in the FAQ of citizendium.org that Citizendium is not related to Digital Universe Foundation, and that Sanger's role in Digital Universe Foundation is supposed to be a professional one, even if the Foundation should be non-profit, isn't there a danger of a conflict of interests? Does anybody know any sources about this issue? Or maybe Sanger is no longer involved in Digital Universe Foundation? -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.104.143.109 ( talk • contribs) .
Indeed I was just asking if anybody knew about some "discussion of such a conflict published somewhere", or to update the article "Larry Sanger" in case its namesake wasn't a DUF employee anymore. I wasn't soliciting original points of view on the issue.
This article doesn't have much information about the subject, but that's because the subject is so new that there simply isn't much information. I don't see much room for expansion until there are further developments -- and there's enough interest among Wikipedians that I suspect any developments will be added to the article quite promptly. I suggest removing the "stub" tag. JamesMLane t c 18:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed [3]. Is there a source for it somewhere? -- HappyCamper 15:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
He calls his administrators "Constables", minimum qualification, "four-year college degree". Fred Bauder 23:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
"If you don't see the reason in that, then I encourage you to stop attempting to shape policy for the Citizendium, and stick with Wikipedia. This isn't the project for you." Fred Bauder 01:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
"I figured that I would catch a little flak on this, but I am sticking by my guns, and I hope to hear from those of you who support me on this.
Constables must both work closely with editors and be *excellent* judges for the general public. In a knowledge-oriented project, this is a job that is *emphatically not* merely one of conflict mediator. It is one that requires, quite simply, a great deal of practical wisdom. So in fact I would be more inclined to put an age limit--say, 25 years old--before I would put a requirement of a college degree.
The point is that, in an open, scalable, rapidly-growing community, we have a *practical* need of objective indicators of this practical wisdom. Age and formal education are obviously imperfect indicators, but they are indicators.
What remains open to negotiation is the specific configuration of requirements for being a constable. I *can* imagine a set of qualifications that allows someone to be a constable who doesn't possess a college degree. My point is that the minimum education and maturity level of constables is indicated by the possession of a college degree.
What is completely unacceptable to me is, for example, a callow 20-year-old college undergraduate making key enforcement decisions that directly affect the motivation of a 50-year-old college professor to participate in the Citizendium.
If you don't see the reason in that, then I encourage you to stop attempting to shape policy for the Citizendium, and stick with Wikipedia. This isn't the project for you."
Rather different IMHO.-- Phil Wardle 02:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
NB like it says: This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. Please talk to the article and its improvement. Charles Matthews 10:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Whats the right way to cite these, until they are archived somewhere? And after? · XP · 23:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Can nobody else see the obserdety is creating a "better than wiki" starting out using wiki and then going into it's own website to become bigger and better than wiki?
Wikipedia is already here! Alan2here 16:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I know this is not meant to be a forum, so please forgive me, but I have to mention the rejection I got from the Citizendium mailing list when I asked some questions about the appointment of
Bernard Haisch as editor in chief. Reply "Posting of your message titled "Bernard Haisch" has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request: "We are not going to have a thread on citizendium-l about Bernard Haisch. Sorry."
Dbuckner
17:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC) Edward Buckner
Guys - this is not the place to hash over all the controversies. In line with the page warning, I will happily cut out whole threads here that do not conform to the principle, that this page is for discussion of the article. We do not create Talk pages as a magnet for all sorts of passing comment and trolling. Please bear that in mind. Charles Matthews 09:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
As Fred Bauder said above: We want a neutral article that chronicles the developing project. Absolutely right, and a test of NPOV. When you say I have to mention the rejection I got from the Citizendium mailing list, I must disagree. You write
Most people would count this as 'stirring', and I'll trouble you and others to keep such edits off WP. You don't even have your facts straight ( User:Hillman is editing today, I'm glad to say). Charles Matthews 14:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
In the article I've eliminated all dates for hardware set-up, beta testing, full launch, and basically anything else except the original announcement and Haisch's appointment, per Larry's e-mail of September 27 on the launch plan. I'll watch the CZ mailing list and forums for future announcements of any dates. Casey Abell 12:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The article currently states: "The stated aim of the project is to create an expert culture and a community that encourages subject specialists (presently named as 'editors') to contribute, and 'citizens' (to be called 'authors') to 'respect' the expert contributions. . . ".
But isn't that confusing method and purpose? The purpose, as stated in the project announcements, is to create a "new compendium of knowledge", a "citizen's compendium of everything". Hope this is not being too nit-picky. :-) JFPerry 17:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Larry just posted a long, rather rambling comment on the CZ mailing list that apparently was intended to clear up the editing rules, which so far have remained incredibly hazy. Unfortunately, the post is so hedged with reservations and OTOH's that I really don't see how I can update the article with anything definite. Apparently, Larry wants a two-fold article approval process from the subject expert "editor" and the (I think) style expert "copy-editor". But the article would still be open to editing even after both these people signed off with approval notices. At least that's what he seems to be saying.
We may have to wait for the actual launch of the project, which continues to recede into the future, to see how the editing rules actually develop. I'd like to put some more specifics into the article, but the editing rules still look hopelessly vague to me.
In fact, I'm having second thoughts about a change I recently made. I wrote that Sanger favors a complete fork of the English-language WP instead of importing only selected articles. Other posters on the CZ mailing list keep bashing WP's quality, and they argue that only a small percentage of articles are even worth working on. So far Larry seems to be sticking to a complete fork, so I won't change the article. But as usual with CZ, stay tuned.
One other thing: apparently an announcement of the identity of the "Chief Constable" is upcoming. I'll keep a lookout for the news, because this is at least one specific thing we can put in the article. Casey Abell 22:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
It is fun to drop in on the CZ forum and mailing list. Larry and the gang are always coming up with ideas for the encyclopedia to be launched later. In fact, the latest idea shows some impatience: import a few WP articles into Larry's already existing Textop wiki and, well, start editing them. After all, Larry and the would-be CZers have been chewing the fat for a while now, and some of them want to get busy on some actual encyclopedia articles, dammit.
Can't put any of this into the article yet, because Larry is only thinking it over. And in a very top-down project like CZ, nothin' ain't nothin' until Larry says so. But I really hope this idea gets somewhere, and fast. It would provide some content for the article besides endless versions of "to be decided later". Watching the CZ folks actually work on some entries would let us put a little genuine meat on the article's bones. Not to mention that we could see if any of the content got spooned back to WP after the fork, which would make a whole new interesting section of the article. As I've said before, stay tuned. Casey Abell 22:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello,
I've created the page Wikipedia:Comments on Citizendium (and its accompanying talk page), for discussion of Citizendium itself--its potential impact on Wikipedia, its editorial policies, and its personalities. I did this so this talk page can be about the article, and not about the article's subject.
Normally, such an action would be inappropriate--Wikipedia is WP:NOT a web forum or chatroom; and most articles have subjects which have little bearing on Wikipedia itself. I certainly wouldn't create an article such as Wikipedia:Big Bang wherein armchair (or professional FTM) physicists can debate the origins of the Universe without any regard to encyclopedic content--such a subject is irrelevant to the workings of the encyclopedia, and is only of interest to the Wikipedia project as a subject to document in the encyclopedia. A debate on the Big Bang itself is not appropriate for any part of Wikipedia; this is probably true for most subjects we cover. However, this topic is much more relevant to the "meta-" side of the house; thus finding a home for discussion on the project may be appropriate.
Of course, those who disagree vehemently with my WP:BOLD action are welcome to take the matter to WP:MfD; I understand full well that I am pushing the envelope a bit. This should not be construed as a generic means to move irrelevant debates out of article talk pages.
Assuming that Wikipedia:Comments on Citizendium survives, though--it, not here, is the place to discusses Citizendium qua Citizendium; rather than the present encyclopedia article.
-- EngineerScotty 02:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Larry has put out a fairly detailed pilot proposal that apparently is meant to blossom into the full-blown wiki. It looks very private and password-protected, so prying eyes won't be able to see much of what is going on. Whether GFDL content from Wikipedia can be used in such a hush-hush manner is for the lawyers to decide. Anyway, I've summarized the proposal in the history section and cited everything. I've also given Larry's loose deadlines for the launch of the fully functioning encyclopedia. Casey Abell 04:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Added a link to a brief Nature article (remember Wikipedia vs. Britannica?) about CZ, via Larry on the mailing list. The article says the CZ pilot will launch next week, but I've learned my lesson about putting dates into the article. Larry first talked about getting the wiki running by the end of September. Monday he was talking about getting the pilot running this week. Now the pilot is next week, maybe. Deadlines slide like southern California mud on CZ, and I'm not even comfortable with Larry's very vague language ("one to two months") currently in the article for the actual launch of the project. Casey Abell 19:35, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Rearranged the article to get "Nature of the Project" material up front. The basic stuff was getting pushed further and further down by the lengthening "History" section. If and when things settle out and CZ actually gets going, it will be possible to put the "Nature" material into more polished and concise form, without all the endless qualifiers now necessary. The "History" section can also get boiled down once the project progresses further. Casey Abell 18:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
In my last edit, I removed the above sentence from the article. It strikes me as being a speculation of the author who published it. I did not see any discussion of this issue in the document to which the reference following that sentence pointed.
Meanwhile, I don't think it is unclear whether this can or cannot be done under the terms of the GFDL. If I were to take some source code and work with it on my computer, privately and away from public scrutiny, is that not okay? Presumably, a small group could also do this as part of the development process, only sharing their work when it is advanced enough. The pilot proposal to work a limited number of WP articles by a small group as a test for a limited time is clearly not a problem (at least, it does not seem so to me). If Richard Stallman or someone like that weighs in and says it is, then that is another matter. Until then . . . JFPerry 22:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but you have misunderstood the nature and meaning of the GFDL. It does not require that any derivative work of a GFDL-licensed document be available to anyone, at any time, as you seem to think. It requires that anyone who gets a copy of the derivative work can distribute it without any restrictions; this is very different. There is the famous "technical measures" clause, which complicates things, but, considering the statement from the GPL FAQ above, I strongly doubt that the FSF intended (or intends) the clause to require public distribution of deriviative works. There is absolutly no problem with making a copy of a Wikipedia article, modifying it, and giving the modified copy only to your friends, and refusing to give a copy to some stranger who asks you for one. What you can't do is prevent your friends from giving the stranger a copy (if they want to). AFAIK, there is no restriction on people who are able to read the pilot project site distributing what they read - that's all that is required by the license. Please do not spread misunderstandings like this. Thanks! 71.128.189.182 01:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC) (actually, User:JesseW/not logged in)
"...a Citizendium Foundation which is yet to be founded." Well, it has been founded; some of its members have been listed in the first press release; it's just that it has applied for, yet not received, 501(c)(3) status. Please make an effort to be unbiased with this article. -- Larry Sanger 21:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
well, uh, i don't mean to sound naive (but i probably do), but can an article stay if the thing it's about doesn't exist yet? i keep checking the site, and i get bumpkis. this seems more like a article on gossip than anything corporeal. JoeSmack Talk( p-review!) 07:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Some media stories cropped up in response to Larry's October 17 press release about the encyclopedia to be seen later. I included some of the more interesting ones in the article under the comments section. Also got rid of the tiny "linguistic spread" section and transferred the content to the first section. Casey Abell 12:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The present "Comments" section is yet another example of vain Wikipedian navel-gazing: rather than discuss the substantive comments that people have made about the project, nearly the entire section is about the relationship between WP and CZ, and particularly about the relationship between Jimmy and me. Are you an encyclopedia or a tabloid? "Other published comments have emphasized the rivalry between Sanger and Wales." Actually, only a few stories have even mentioned this, so this issue doesn't deserve the pride of place it is given here. If you look, you'll see that most of the stories don't even mention a "rivalry," as well they shouldn't, because on my side there is no rivalry, and I doubt there is on his; instead, matters are precisely as Jimmy described them, a difference in vision. I have no desire to be Jimmy's rival. As always, I wish him and Wikipedia all the best. Now, of course, I wish CZ the resource to outdo WP the resource, but that doesn't mean there's a personal rivalry by Jimmy and me. Frankly, that's just silly. -- Larry Sanger 21:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
David Marshall, the newly appointed managing editor, is asking would-be CZ-ers to start writing articles on Larry's textop wiki. This seems to be a way of getting more people involved while the Select Group works on the very private pilot project. Larry thought about the same idea a while ago, but then it went into hibernation.
A few articles have appeared on Textop: the WP article on Bach, one of Jon Awbrey's obscurer (!) versions of WP's C.S. Peirce article, and a stub on Tony Blair. It's a little odd to see all those red links in the transplanted WP articles. There's not much to write about yet, but I did add a couple paragraphs to the article on Marshall's suggestion. Casey Abell 22:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I've added some material to the "Pilot project implementation" subsection about edits on the Johann Sebastian Bach article, which was forked to the Textop wiki here. Of course, I can't write directly about the pilot project because it is off-limits to public view. But some of the things that happened on Textop—the accuracy disclaimer, the acknowlegement notice, the link back to WP, and the GFDL statement—may become standard on CZ. It's nice to have at least a bit of actual encyclopedia-writing to discuss. Casey Abell 18:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
From Peter's comments at forge.citizendium.org and posts by Jason and Larry on Citizendium-l, it appears the pilot is now functioning. I like the CaesarWiki nickname for the pilot, even if Jason doesn't ("CZ-er", get it?) Of course, nobody on the planet except the "20", as Peter dubs them, can directly report on the pilot. In fact, the identities of the "20" haven't even been disclosed. We'll just have to pick up what we can about the pilot from the CZ mailing list and web forum and forge.citizendium.org—and from any public releases of material derived from WP under the GFDL. As more people get invited to the pilot, maybe more info will become available. Casey Abell 15:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I left alone the comment that Jon Awbrey is "working closely" with Larry on CZ editorial policy. It's true that they've had some discussions about editorial policy on the Textop wiki. However, Awbrey does not appear to be a CZ insider. In particular, he doesn't seem to have access yet to the tightly controlled pilot project, which is why he's posting on the publicly accessible Textop wiki. According to comments on the CZ web forum, the pilot will be opened up to a wider range of participants within the next few days, though it appears that public access is still not close. It will be interesting to see if Awbrey gets into the pilot. Casey Abell 18:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know what happened to David Marshall? He does not seem to be registered at the Citizendium Forum or Textop Wiki anymore. Farmer Kiss 20:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It's a sad habit of mine to try to get things right—must keep taking the tablets. As to the proposal, I think wikis should actively take on the commercial publishers across the board of news, current interest, and more popular forms like comics. If Wikpedia can start at the top and do encyclopaedias, then it (or a group to be formed) should be interested in crossing over into all other published formats. Naturally, I have a plan to manage the risks. David Marshall 13:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Larry has released the first draft of his policy outline. On the Citizendium blog he specifically asked that this article not make hard-and-fast statements based on the provisional outline. (Larry's request is quoted in a footnote to the article.) Fair enough, though I have added some general comments that there will be dispute-resolution procedures on CZ. I have not gone into the details of those processes, which don't seem to have been nailed down completely yet. Of course, others are welcome to modify the article based on Larry's outline. Casey Abell 13:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Granted that Citizendium rolls off the tongue better than Citizenipedia, but still, shouldn't the latter be the more consistant name? Tabletop 01:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
The main page of the pilot project is now accessible to the public, though everything else on the pilot remains sealed off. I put the link in the article. On the CZ blog Larry gave some figures for work on the pilot. I didn't put them in the article because they will date so quickly. The CZ web forum also has a list of articles being actively edited on the pilot, but again that list will date quickly. This thread includes a discussion about releasing pilot material in public (see a similar discussion above). Larry sounds dead set against any public releases, as does Zach.
In general, I'm going to boil down the sections of the article on the pilot, once CZ goes public. Not much else is happening in public right now, except the usual comments on the CZ mailing list about how terrible Wikipedia is (smile). Casey Abell 19:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)