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Stop adding wrong facts that Cis-Sutlej states were "HINDU STATES", they were primarily Sikh states with few exceptions, and that [Scindhias|Scindhia dynasty]] was a Rajput dynasty instead of a Maratha dynasty. These are well sourced, established FACTS, stop changing them. Shimlaites ( talk) 07:25, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Many historians and sources such as Hari Ram Gupta have mentioned that Mahadji Shinde or Sindhia was the viceregent of Mughal Emperor Shah Alam II and on behalf of the emperor, Mahadji was given task to bring peace in the territories of Mughal Kingdom. Javerine ( talk) 15:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
By Mahadji Shinde's treaty of 1785 with the Sikhs, Maratha influence had been established over the divided Cis-Sutlej states. But at the end of the second Maratha war in 1806 that influence had been pass over to the British.The arrangement remained in place till 1803. Also note that after Mahadji, Daulat Rao Scindia continued to exert influence over these areas. Marathas as Regent of Mughal has been clearly described. Mughals were under their protection not the other way. What you are trying to do is make Mughals the final sovereign, when in fact all the sources clearly mention Marathas as the sovereigns of the territory after 1785. It's not the second Anglo-Mughal war, it's the second Anglo-Maratha war that took place in 1803. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 02:28, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Advanced Study in the History of Modern India 1707–1813, p. 140, at Google Books S. M. Ikram (1964). "XIX. A Century of Political Decline: 1707–1803". In Ainslie T. Embree (ed.). Muslim Civilization in India. New York: Columbia University Press. Retrieved 5 November 2011. Das, Aditya. Defending British India Against Napoleon.
The Cis-Sutlej states were a group of states in the contemporary Punjab and Haryana states of northern India during the 19th century, lying between the Sutlej River in the north, the Himalayas in the east, the Yamuna River and Delhi District in the south, and Sirsa District in the west.
The Cis-Sutlej state was ruled by many chiefs though it belonged to Mughal Empire. [1] Mughal Emperor Shah Alam II's viceregent Afrasiyab was killed by Zain-ul-Abidin Khan on 2 November 1784, thus leaving no one to appoint as the next viceregent. [2] Thus Mughal Emperor appointed Mahadji Sindhia as viceregent of the empire as Shah Alam II knew that Sindhia is the only one who would remain acquiescent to him and would be able to maintain peace and order in his kingdom. [3] Therefore, Mahadji as newly appointed viceregent of the Mughal Emperor, tried to come to an agreement with the Cis-Sutlej chiefs and concluded a treaty in May 1785, which however fell apart as the chiefs did not observe the terms of the treaty. [4] [5] But in 1789, a peaceful agreement was set in place where Sindhia legitamized the chiefs to collect tributes from the villages and the purpose behind Mahadji's policy was to win over the chiefs by friendship, but this policy too failed. [4] After Mahadji's death in 1794, Daulat Rao was made his replacement, under whom the unstable conditions continued against the chiefs till the Second Anglo-Maratha War, losing any influence over Cis-Sutlej state and parts of Uttar Pradesh, which he supervised on behalf of the Mughal Emperor. [6] [7] [8] [9] Following the Second Anglo-Maratha War in 1806, Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington drafted a treaty granting independence to the Sikh clans east of the Sutlej River in exchange for their allegiance to the British General Gerard Lake acting on his dispatch. [10] [11] At the conclusion of the war, the frontier of British India was extended to the Yamuna.
Ranjit Singh led three expeditions into Cis-Sutlej states in 1806, 1807 and 1808, seizing many territories, particularly 45 district subdivisions or administrative units (parganas) and then distributed them among different chiefs who would pay annual tributes of certain amount as recognition of Ranjit Singh's supremacy. [12] Ranjit Singh gave some territories of Cis-Sutlej to his mother in law Rani Sada Kaur and granted a good deal of villages to his general Dewan Mokham Chand. [12] In all 45 paraganas, Ranjit Singh assigned salaried agents to different territories who sustained some soldiers for internal administration to retrieve revenues from lands. [12] Some of the important vassal territories of Sikh empire were, Anandpur, Rupar, Himmatpur, Wadni, Harikepatan, Firozpur and Mamdot. [13] An 1809 agreement with Ranjit Singh, emperor of the Sikh Empire west of the Sutlej, brought the territories under the aegis of Ranjit Singh's Sikh Empire's dominion from Anandpur to Mamdot. [14] On 29 July 1809, David Ochterlony also recognized under Ranjit Singh's supremacy, large territory from Chamkaur to Harikepatan and Kot Kapura, 102 villages in the tehsil of Dharamkot, Zira and Kot Kapura, 90 districts in the paraganah of Ludhiana- Sirhind, 106 villages in the tehsil of Talwandi and Naraingarh, 38 villages secured to Raja Jaswant Singh of Nabha, 32 villages in the tehsil of Baddowal secured to Gurdit Singh of Ladwa, 36 villages in the tehsil of Ghungrana secured to Karam Singh Nagia, 62 villages in the tehsil of Dharamkot granted to Garbha Singh of Bharatgarh, many number of villages granted to Jodh Singh of Kalsia, Basant Singh, Atar Singh, Jodh Singh of Bassia and Ranjit Singh's mother in law Sada Kaur was granted with Himmatpur-Wadni. [14] The Cis-Sutlej states included Kaithal, Patiala, Jind, Thanesar, Maler Kotla and Faridkot.
Before 1846 the greater part of this territory was relatively independent, the chiefs being subject to supervision from a political officer stationed at Umballa, and styled the agent of the British Governor-General of India for the Cis-Sutlej states. [15] A number of states were confiscated or acquired by Britain under the Doctrine of Lapse. After the First Anglo-Sikh War the full administration of the territory became vested in this officer. [15] In 1849, Punjab was annexed to British India, when the Cis-Sutlej states commissionership, comprising the districts of Ambala, Ferozepore, Ludhiana, Thanesar and Simla, was incorporated with the new Punjab Province. [15]
The name continued to be applied to this division until 1862, when—owing to Ferozepore having been transferred to Lahore Division and a part of Thanesar to Delhi Division—it ceased to be appropriate. [15] The remaining tract became known as the Ambala Division. The princely states of Patiala, Jind, and Nabha were appointed a separate political agency in 1901. Excluding Bahawalpur (for which there was no political agent) and Chamba, the other states were grouped under the commissioners of Jullunder and Delhi, and the superintendent of the Simla Hill States. [15] All native states, except Kaithal, would join PEPSU after India's independence. Javerine ( talk) 21:30, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Instead of adding whole versions, kindly narrow down the differences so we can invite the editors to join the discussion. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 05:56, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Make a compilation of all the citations regarding who controlled these states till 1803 as hegemons, Marathas or Mughals and add them here. Take your time search all internet if you want. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 12:42, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
The crux of the discussion regarding changes here is that User:Javerine wants Mughals to be declared as the rulers of these states for the time period of 1785-1806, instead of the Marathas and further, he wants to add more than required details of three years i.e. 1806-1809, the interim period before the British rule in 1809, when parts of these states were invaded by Ranjit Singh's forces and were captured briefly. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 06:25, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
S. M. Ikram (1964). "XIX. A Century of Political Decline: 1707–1803". In Ainslie T. Embree (ed.). Muslim Civilization in India. New York: Columbia University Press. Retrieved 5 November 2011. Das, Aditya. Defending British India Against Napoleon. they all call Marathas as the dominant power in the region not Mughals. All these citations mention Marathas as the dominant power with Mughals as their mere protectorates. You can't remove Marathas and add Mughals as the rulers. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 10:20, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Also, kindly mention the specific sources with quotations to support your edits. Hari Ram Gupta's work is not visible nor the user has quoted what's written in them about the topic. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 10:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I already provided comments by Gupta from his book which seems like you ignored earlier but here it is in bold. Gupta states on page 169 and 170 of his book, Afrasiyab, the regent of the Mughal Empire, was murdered by Zain-ul- Abidin Khan on the 2nd November, 1784. The news staggered Shah Alam II who had none else in his court to appoint in place of the deceased.
Shah Alam 11 was aware that Mahadji Sindhia was the only man who could remain obedient to him, and who was capable of establishing peace and order in the kingdom.
The Emperor met the Maratha chief at Khanua near Agra and in a secret conference on the 17th November told him; You must undertake the regency of my house and regulate my empire.
On the 4th December at another public darbar the Emperor bestowed the highest post of Vakahi-Mutlaq [Regent Plenipotentiary] on Mahadji Sindhia. This office was so rarely filled that only three previous instances, under Akbar, Shahjahan and Bahadur Shah I, existed in the whole range of the Mughal rule in India." And about treaty, Gupta says "The peace-parleys continued for a month, when Mahadji Sindhia concluded the following treaty with them on behalf of the Sikh chiefs on the 9th May, 1785".
No sooner was the treaty signed than misgivings arose between them. The Sikhs did not wish to abide by the treaty. Only a day later the treaty was signed, James Anderson wrote to the Governor-General that “ there was little probability of a sincere union taking place between the Mahrattas and the Seiks.” At this prospect he expressed his opinion that “ it is perhaps on the whole more favourable to the interests of the Company that they should continue to be disunited. Even go through pages 167 to 170 of R.S. CHaurasia's book which gives these detail informations
[1].
Javerine (
talk)
11:22, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
1. A large part of the territory along river Satluj from Chamkaur to Harikepatan and Kot Kapura worth about 4 lakh of rupees annually was kept directly under Lahore Government.
2. His Commander-in-Chief Diwan Mohkam Chand was granted 102 villages in the taluqas of Dharamkot, Zira and Kot Kapura of the value of Rs. 68,900 annually. This territory also belonged to Ranjit Singh.
3. Ranjit Singh's maternal uncle, Raja Bhag Singh of Jind, was given 90 villages in the parganahs of Ludhiana-Sirhind fetching annual reve- nues of Rs. 41,700.
4. Ranjit Singh's turbaned-brother, Fatah Singh Ahluwalia of Kapurthala, received 106 villages in the taluqas of Talwandi and Naraingarh worth Rs. 40,505 a year.
5. Jodh Singh of Bassia 1 was assigned a number of villages to the annual value of Rs. 42,000.
6. Raja Jaswant Singh of Nabha secured 38 villages bringing annual revenue of Rs. 30,040.
7. Gurdit Singh of Ladwa got 32 villages in the taluqa of Baddowal yielding Rs. 23,540.
8. Karam Singh Nagla obtained 36 villages in the taluqa of Ghungrana worth Rs. 23,415.
9. Garbha Singh of Bharatgarh was granted 62 villages in the taluqa of Dharamkot fetching an annual revenue of Rs. 22,63410. Jodh Singh Kalsia of Chhachhrauli was given villages worth Rs. 10,000 a year.
1 1. Basant Singh received villages to the annual value of Rs. 6,914.
12. Atar Singh was assigned villages worth Rs. 4,000.
13. Ranjit Singh's mother-in-law, Sada Kaur, was granted Himmatpur Wadni near Moga with the stipulation that she would pay Rs. 15,000 per year.
14. Raja Sahib Singh of Patiala and Bhai Lai Singh of Kaithal got nothing.
These grants were made on the specific condition that the recipients accepted subordination to Ranjit Singh as their overlord
Territories from Chamkaur to Mamdot fell under him through the treaty while the remaining part of the CIs-Sutlej state remained under British protectorate. Gupta states Ranjit Singh possessed some 45 taluqas wholly or in share with others on the British side of the River Satluj. In these districts Ranjit Singh appointed his agents. They maintained a certain number of troops necessary for internal administration on the proceeds from their lands. The agents were paid salary in cash. For example. Waisakha Singh incharge of Zira got Rs. 1,000 per mensem.
Javerine (
talk)
13:27, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
"ART VI Scindiah to renounce all claims the Seik chiefs or territories" (p.318)
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Stop adding wrong facts that Cis-Sutlej states were "HINDU STATES", they were primarily Sikh states with few exceptions, and that [Scindhias|Scindhia dynasty]] was a Rajput dynasty instead of a Maratha dynasty. These are well sourced, established FACTS, stop changing them. Shimlaites ( talk) 07:25, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Many historians and sources such as Hari Ram Gupta have mentioned that Mahadji Shinde or Sindhia was the viceregent of Mughal Emperor Shah Alam II and on behalf of the emperor, Mahadji was given task to bring peace in the territories of Mughal Kingdom. Javerine ( talk) 15:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
By Mahadji Shinde's treaty of 1785 with the Sikhs, Maratha influence had been established over the divided Cis-Sutlej states. But at the end of the second Maratha war in 1806 that influence had been pass over to the British.The arrangement remained in place till 1803. Also note that after Mahadji, Daulat Rao Scindia continued to exert influence over these areas. Marathas as Regent of Mughal has been clearly described. Mughals were under their protection not the other way. What you are trying to do is make Mughals the final sovereign, when in fact all the sources clearly mention Marathas as the sovereigns of the territory after 1785. It's not the second Anglo-Mughal war, it's the second Anglo-Maratha war that took place in 1803. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 02:28, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Advanced Study in the History of Modern India 1707–1813, p. 140, at Google Books S. M. Ikram (1964). "XIX. A Century of Political Decline: 1707–1803". In Ainslie T. Embree (ed.). Muslim Civilization in India. New York: Columbia University Press. Retrieved 5 November 2011. Das, Aditya. Defending British India Against Napoleon.
The Cis-Sutlej states were a group of states in the contemporary Punjab and Haryana states of northern India during the 19th century, lying between the Sutlej River in the north, the Himalayas in the east, the Yamuna River and Delhi District in the south, and Sirsa District in the west.
The Cis-Sutlej state was ruled by many chiefs though it belonged to Mughal Empire. [1] Mughal Emperor Shah Alam II's viceregent Afrasiyab was killed by Zain-ul-Abidin Khan on 2 November 1784, thus leaving no one to appoint as the next viceregent. [2] Thus Mughal Emperor appointed Mahadji Sindhia as viceregent of the empire as Shah Alam II knew that Sindhia is the only one who would remain acquiescent to him and would be able to maintain peace and order in his kingdom. [3] Therefore, Mahadji as newly appointed viceregent of the Mughal Emperor, tried to come to an agreement with the Cis-Sutlej chiefs and concluded a treaty in May 1785, which however fell apart as the chiefs did not observe the terms of the treaty. [4] [5] But in 1789, a peaceful agreement was set in place where Sindhia legitamized the chiefs to collect tributes from the villages and the purpose behind Mahadji's policy was to win over the chiefs by friendship, but this policy too failed. [4] After Mahadji's death in 1794, Daulat Rao was made his replacement, under whom the unstable conditions continued against the chiefs till the Second Anglo-Maratha War, losing any influence over Cis-Sutlej state and parts of Uttar Pradesh, which he supervised on behalf of the Mughal Emperor. [6] [7] [8] [9] Following the Second Anglo-Maratha War in 1806, Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington drafted a treaty granting independence to the Sikh clans east of the Sutlej River in exchange for their allegiance to the British General Gerard Lake acting on his dispatch. [10] [11] At the conclusion of the war, the frontier of British India was extended to the Yamuna.
Ranjit Singh led three expeditions into Cis-Sutlej states in 1806, 1807 and 1808, seizing many territories, particularly 45 district subdivisions or administrative units (parganas) and then distributed them among different chiefs who would pay annual tributes of certain amount as recognition of Ranjit Singh's supremacy. [12] Ranjit Singh gave some territories of Cis-Sutlej to his mother in law Rani Sada Kaur and granted a good deal of villages to his general Dewan Mokham Chand. [12] In all 45 paraganas, Ranjit Singh assigned salaried agents to different territories who sustained some soldiers for internal administration to retrieve revenues from lands. [12] Some of the important vassal territories of Sikh empire were, Anandpur, Rupar, Himmatpur, Wadni, Harikepatan, Firozpur and Mamdot. [13] An 1809 agreement with Ranjit Singh, emperor of the Sikh Empire west of the Sutlej, brought the territories under the aegis of Ranjit Singh's Sikh Empire's dominion from Anandpur to Mamdot. [14] On 29 July 1809, David Ochterlony also recognized under Ranjit Singh's supremacy, large territory from Chamkaur to Harikepatan and Kot Kapura, 102 villages in the tehsil of Dharamkot, Zira and Kot Kapura, 90 districts in the paraganah of Ludhiana- Sirhind, 106 villages in the tehsil of Talwandi and Naraingarh, 38 villages secured to Raja Jaswant Singh of Nabha, 32 villages in the tehsil of Baddowal secured to Gurdit Singh of Ladwa, 36 villages in the tehsil of Ghungrana secured to Karam Singh Nagia, 62 villages in the tehsil of Dharamkot granted to Garbha Singh of Bharatgarh, many number of villages granted to Jodh Singh of Kalsia, Basant Singh, Atar Singh, Jodh Singh of Bassia and Ranjit Singh's mother in law Sada Kaur was granted with Himmatpur-Wadni. [14] The Cis-Sutlej states included Kaithal, Patiala, Jind, Thanesar, Maler Kotla and Faridkot.
Before 1846 the greater part of this territory was relatively independent, the chiefs being subject to supervision from a political officer stationed at Umballa, and styled the agent of the British Governor-General of India for the Cis-Sutlej states. [15] A number of states were confiscated or acquired by Britain under the Doctrine of Lapse. After the First Anglo-Sikh War the full administration of the territory became vested in this officer. [15] In 1849, Punjab was annexed to British India, when the Cis-Sutlej states commissionership, comprising the districts of Ambala, Ferozepore, Ludhiana, Thanesar and Simla, was incorporated with the new Punjab Province. [15]
The name continued to be applied to this division until 1862, when—owing to Ferozepore having been transferred to Lahore Division and a part of Thanesar to Delhi Division—it ceased to be appropriate. [15] The remaining tract became known as the Ambala Division. The princely states of Patiala, Jind, and Nabha were appointed a separate political agency in 1901. Excluding Bahawalpur (for which there was no political agent) and Chamba, the other states were grouped under the commissioners of Jullunder and Delhi, and the superintendent of the Simla Hill States. [15] All native states, except Kaithal, would join PEPSU after India's independence. Javerine ( talk) 21:30, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Instead of adding whole versions, kindly narrow down the differences so we can invite the editors to join the discussion. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 05:56, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Make a compilation of all the citations regarding who controlled these states till 1803 as hegemons, Marathas or Mughals and add them here. Take your time search all internet if you want. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 12:42, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
The crux of the discussion regarding changes here is that User:Javerine wants Mughals to be declared as the rulers of these states for the time period of 1785-1806, instead of the Marathas and further, he wants to add more than required details of three years i.e. 1806-1809, the interim period before the British rule in 1809, when parts of these states were invaded by Ranjit Singh's forces and were captured briefly. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 06:25, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
S. M. Ikram (1964). "XIX. A Century of Political Decline: 1707–1803". In Ainslie T. Embree (ed.). Muslim Civilization in India. New York: Columbia University Press. Retrieved 5 November 2011. Das, Aditya. Defending British India Against Napoleon. they all call Marathas as the dominant power in the region not Mughals. All these citations mention Marathas as the dominant power with Mughals as their mere protectorates. You can't remove Marathas and add Mughals as the rulers. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 10:20, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
Also, kindly mention the specific sources with quotations to support your edits. Hari Ram Gupta's work is not visible nor the user has quoted what's written in them about the topic. CrashLandingNew ( talk) 10:37, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
I already provided comments by Gupta from his book which seems like you ignored earlier but here it is in bold. Gupta states on page 169 and 170 of his book, Afrasiyab, the regent of the Mughal Empire, was murdered by Zain-ul- Abidin Khan on the 2nd November, 1784. The news staggered Shah Alam II who had none else in his court to appoint in place of the deceased.
Shah Alam 11 was aware that Mahadji Sindhia was the only man who could remain obedient to him, and who was capable of establishing peace and order in the kingdom.
The Emperor met the Maratha chief at Khanua near Agra and in a secret conference on the 17th November told him; You must undertake the regency of my house and regulate my empire.
On the 4th December at another public darbar the Emperor bestowed the highest post of Vakahi-Mutlaq [Regent Plenipotentiary] on Mahadji Sindhia. This office was so rarely filled that only three previous instances, under Akbar, Shahjahan and Bahadur Shah I, existed in the whole range of the Mughal rule in India." And about treaty, Gupta says "The peace-parleys continued for a month, when Mahadji Sindhia concluded the following treaty with them on behalf of the Sikh chiefs on the 9th May, 1785".
No sooner was the treaty signed than misgivings arose between them. The Sikhs did not wish to abide by the treaty. Only a day later the treaty was signed, James Anderson wrote to the Governor-General that “ there was little probability of a sincere union taking place between the Mahrattas and the Seiks.” At this prospect he expressed his opinion that “ it is perhaps on the whole more favourable to the interests of the Company that they should continue to be disunited. Even go through pages 167 to 170 of R.S. CHaurasia's book which gives these detail informations
[1].
Javerine (
talk)
11:22, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
1. A large part of the territory along river Satluj from Chamkaur to Harikepatan and Kot Kapura worth about 4 lakh of rupees annually was kept directly under Lahore Government.
2. His Commander-in-Chief Diwan Mohkam Chand was granted 102 villages in the taluqas of Dharamkot, Zira and Kot Kapura of the value of Rs. 68,900 annually. This territory also belonged to Ranjit Singh.
3. Ranjit Singh's maternal uncle, Raja Bhag Singh of Jind, was given 90 villages in the parganahs of Ludhiana-Sirhind fetching annual reve- nues of Rs. 41,700.
4. Ranjit Singh's turbaned-brother, Fatah Singh Ahluwalia of Kapurthala, received 106 villages in the taluqas of Talwandi and Naraingarh worth Rs. 40,505 a year.
5. Jodh Singh of Bassia 1 was assigned a number of villages to the annual value of Rs. 42,000.
6. Raja Jaswant Singh of Nabha secured 38 villages bringing annual revenue of Rs. 30,040.
7. Gurdit Singh of Ladwa got 32 villages in the taluqa of Baddowal yielding Rs. 23,540.
8. Karam Singh Nagla obtained 36 villages in the taluqa of Ghungrana worth Rs. 23,415.
9. Garbha Singh of Bharatgarh was granted 62 villages in the taluqa of Dharamkot fetching an annual revenue of Rs. 22,63410. Jodh Singh Kalsia of Chhachhrauli was given villages worth Rs. 10,000 a year.
1 1. Basant Singh received villages to the annual value of Rs. 6,914.
12. Atar Singh was assigned villages worth Rs. 4,000.
13. Ranjit Singh's mother-in-law, Sada Kaur, was granted Himmatpur Wadni near Moga with the stipulation that she would pay Rs. 15,000 per year.
14. Raja Sahib Singh of Patiala and Bhai Lai Singh of Kaithal got nothing.
These grants were made on the specific condition that the recipients accepted subordination to Ranjit Singh as their overlord
Territories from Chamkaur to Mamdot fell under him through the treaty while the remaining part of the CIs-Sutlej state remained under British protectorate. Gupta states Ranjit Singh possessed some 45 taluqas wholly or in share with others on the British side of the River Satluj. In these districts Ranjit Singh appointed his agents. They maintained a certain number of troops necessary for internal administration on the proceeds from their lands. The agents were paid salary in cash. For example. Waisakha Singh incharge of Zira got Rs. 1,000 per mensem.
Javerine (
talk)
13:27, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
"ART VI Scindiah to renounce all claims the Seik chiefs or territories" (p.318)