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I added the DVD and Blu-Ray lists back in to the article. The "citation" can be found on the packaging (covers) of these video releases. For example, here -> [1] is the back cover of Salt. The lower left area has the pink Cinavia logo. I am not sure how to properly cite the video packaging as a source. If any more experienced editors know how to do so properly, please do so instead of deleting these lists as they are useful to people. - Artificial Silence ( talk) 18:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
At this point I am not sure if Blu-Ray discs and DVD discs use the same Cinavia watermark. There may be a different one for AACS (Blu-Ray) and CSS (DVD). We know that there is a different watermark for theatrical releases and optical discs, since different behaviors are triggered on the PS3 for CAM bootlegs and Blu-Ray backups. So for now, I just added the section "List of Known DVD Releases with the Cinavia Watermark" for
Takers until it is known if AACS and CSS use different Cinavia watermarks. -
Artificial Silence (
talk)
09:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
What's this? Look at this index; in its current form this has nothing to do on Wikipedia.
4 List of Known Releases with Cinavia Watermarking
4.1 Blu-ray
4.2 Blu-ray - Region C
4.3 HDTV Or TV
4.4 DVD
4.5 DVD - Screener
4.6 DVD - Region 5
4.7 Workprint
4.8 Digital Distribution Copy
4.9 Pay Per View
4.10 Telecine
4.11 Telesync Or Cam
Questions:
4.1 What region does does chapter 4.1 refer to?
4.4 What region does does chapter 4.4 refer to?
4.11 What is "Cam"?
Are1981 ( talk) 23:01, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
First edit :o, Smurfs WORKPRINT is protected by Cinavia Stalksta ( talk) 18:41, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't see any reason to be listing all the releases that use this technology! The list will keep growing and growing and I am sure websites will cover it, wiki doesn't need to. Perhaps just some examples will do nicely. Tyros1972 ( talk) 13:35, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I removed NeoTV 550 from the list of devices with Cinavia protection. Back in February 2011, there was a lot of noise about this player being infested with Cinavia. However, when it hit the market, there was no Cinavia on it. Until anybody can confirm that a firmware update has been released that includes Cinavia detection, NeoTV should not be in this list. TrondM ( talk) 12:40, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
The current version of this article exclusively references verance.com (the developer's website) and cinavia.com (the website by the developer about the technology); both are primary sources and we need reliable, independent, secondary sources to achieve verifiability. — danhash ( talk) 15:19, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
As audio-watermarking on Blu-ray Discs introduces artifacts into lossless audio streams (within the human hearing frequency range), it is loathed by audiophiles as this necessarily means that all lossless audio tracks containing Cinavia are in fact no longer lossless. Thus future versions of watermarking will probably be applied to the (lossy) video streams rather than audio streams, as video streams are not lossless to begin with and so adding imperceptible artifacts will not be noticeable. - 168.140.181.4 ( talk) 18:48, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
lossless is just a container format, which in fact has nothing to do with how it compares to the "original master". Lossless just means the audio has not been lossy compressed that's all. If "audiophiles" knew anything they'd understand there is no such thing as lossles when it comes to digital sampling, only analog is truly continuous and lossless. Tyros1972 ( talk) 13:31, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Cinavia's technique is to use what they regard as an inaudible distortion (phase-domain) of the audio signal(s). whether or not this is actually discernable by "golden ears" or normal people or dogs or whatever remains to be proven, but for releases that are audio-only or especially feature audio content, it defeats the object of the high-resolution, high bitrate digital disc, which is to try to approach the transparency of a good analogue rendering of the content. Duncanrmi ( talk) 16:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I have removed a large amount of unsourced information from the article. We do not need to list every player with Cinavia or every Blu-ray or other release with Cinavia. Such lists are not necessary, they are unmaintainable, and they are not relevant to the article (major notable players such as the PlayStation 3 may deserve mention, but not every single player). There are plenty of other online resources for users wishing to learn about a specific player or release's implementation of Cinavia or lack thereof. One way to determine if a player is notable enough for inclusion in this article is if the player has its own Wikipedia article and there are reliable, secondary sources discussing the player's inclusion or lack of Cinavia. One way to determine if a film, Blu-ray, or other type of release is notable enough for inclusion in this article is if there are reliable, secondary sources documenting Cinavia's effect on consumers relating to that specific film/release. Entries based off of information gathered from cams, screeners, workprints, R5s, telesyncs, telecines, and the like is not eligible for inclusion unless a reliable source can be found and cited stating the presence or absence of Cinavia for that release. — danhash ( talk) 14:58, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
put a link to the list if you think it's valuable for purposes of providing examples of this "protection" or an idea of how widespread is its use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duncanrmi ( talk • contribs) 16:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Bluray.com shows the back cover of blurays with the watermark logo, you nerds need to find something better to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.186.195.29 ( talk) 04:52, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Cinavia is only able to detect the watermark if HDMI audio output is enabled. If one disables the HDMI output, and uses another audio output, for example TOSLINK or analog RCA audio connectors, Cinavia won't work and the user is able to watch pirated movies without being interrupted. (Posted @ [www.infobarrel.com/Cinavia_Message_Code_Workaround]) - Torriedekat ( talk) 18:47, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
I think the OP in this section is missing the point; the watermark works by telling the player to look for a key elsewhere on the disc. if the player cannot find it, there WILL BE NO AUDIO decoded, HDMI or TOSlink or RCA jacks, whatever. That's how it works. Duncanrmi ( talk) 16:30, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I think you dont understand how this works. The player has to read an audio stream for some time period (a good few seconds) in the first place to be able to know if it should validate movie or BD protected content via Cinavia. If it doesnt get to read the audio stream then it doesnt trigger the cinavia warning. I have personally validated that this work around is correct and valid both for the PS3 and at least 1 commercial BD player, 195.110.70.45 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:10, 16 July 2012 (UTC) {{ User:ClueBot III/ArchiveNow}}
Another workaround would of course be not to use a Bluray player at all. A home-built HTPC wouldn't care about Cinavia, right? I love how sometimes problems solve themselves. 83.250.172.154 ( talk) 11:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
If you don't use a BD player then how is it a "workaround"? A workaround would be to use the BD Player and some how fool it to bypass Cinavia on an unauthorized copy. Tyros1972 ( talk) 21:18, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I think a criticism section would be worth while. I'm sure there are lots. but i have read a great deal of criticism over the use of DTS-HD master audio, lossless, in conjunction with Cinavia. Principally that if there i an audio watermark then the audio can't be lossless. Anyone want to take this on. Flagpolewiki ( talk) 15:00, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Upon further research, I have decided to remove the article. There are 2 lossless audio formats for blu-Ray, DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD Lossless (which also claims the same thing).
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-truehd.html 'Dolby® TrueHD is a 100 percent lossless audio format that ensures you’ll experience movies and music that are identical to the studio masters '
Obviously it is because it is a file format (i.e. not lossy) so if Cinavia is used on the Studio Master, they will as stated make a bit identical copy.
I don't see any evidence to support your claims, it appears as I said you are misinterpreting what the term lossless means and is being used for. I don't see this making any sense, unless of course you don't know what lossless means. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tyros1972 ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Apparent Cinavia patents (transcribed + formatted as best I can). List as given in the list originally posted at AVSForum by AV journalist "Ruined"; and subsequently linked highlight on Wikipedia by User:Tyros1972 yesterday [2].
This product incorporates proprietary technology under license from Verance Corporation and is protected by U.S. Patent 7,369,677 and other …
{{
cite book}}
: |first=
missing |last=
(
help); |work=
ignored (
help) which is
US patent 7369677, Petrovic, Rade; Tehranchi, Babak & Winograd, Joseph M., "System reactions to the detection of embedded watermarks in a digital host content", published 26 October 2006, issued 6 May 2008, assigned to Verance Corporation —
Sladen (
talk)
23:25, 4 September 2012 (UTC)OK I understand now. The way you worded it above would be easier to understand concerning that, but other then that, the article is fine as is. Tyros1972 ( talk) 14:46, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite thesis}}
: CS1 maint: unrecognized language (
link) —
Sladen (
talk)
09:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)An "Encryption Method" info box was added. Except... Cinavia is not an encryption method. It does nothing to encrypt anything. It is a watermark. The logo was also deleted. I've not the time or the energy to fight or edit war with anyone. But I'd at least like to point out somewhere (here I guess) the inaccuracy of calling Cinavia an "encryption." - Artificial Silence ( talk) 04:48, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
image=
field again. —
Sladen (
talk)
06:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)I would like to see a list of discs that use Cinavia protection (probably on a new, related page), but I am not sure if it would be appropriate for Wikipedia. I found a list at http://blog.dvdfab.com/cinavia-protection.html, but I do not know if it is kept current or not. A list that everyone could contribute to would be helpful. Your opinions? Raran75 ( talk) 20:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Cinavia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I added the DVD and Blu-Ray lists back in to the article. The "citation" can be found on the packaging (covers) of these video releases. For example, here -> [1] is the back cover of Salt. The lower left area has the pink Cinavia logo. I am not sure how to properly cite the video packaging as a source. If any more experienced editors know how to do so properly, please do so instead of deleting these lists as they are useful to people. - Artificial Silence ( talk) 18:06, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
At this point I am not sure if Blu-Ray discs and DVD discs use the same Cinavia watermark. There may be a different one for AACS (Blu-Ray) and CSS (DVD). We know that there is a different watermark for theatrical releases and optical discs, since different behaviors are triggered on the PS3 for CAM bootlegs and Blu-Ray backups. So for now, I just added the section "List of Known DVD Releases with the Cinavia Watermark" for
Takers until it is known if AACS and CSS use different Cinavia watermarks. -
Artificial Silence (
talk)
09:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
What's this? Look at this index; in its current form this has nothing to do on Wikipedia.
4 List of Known Releases with Cinavia Watermarking
4.1 Blu-ray
4.2 Blu-ray - Region C
4.3 HDTV Or TV
4.4 DVD
4.5 DVD - Screener
4.6 DVD - Region 5
4.7 Workprint
4.8 Digital Distribution Copy
4.9 Pay Per View
4.10 Telecine
4.11 Telesync Or Cam
Questions:
4.1 What region does does chapter 4.1 refer to?
4.4 What region does does chapter 4.4 refer to?
4.11 What is "Cam"?
Are1981 ( talk) 23:01, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
First edit :o, Smurfs WORKPRINT is protected by Cinavia Stalksta ( talk) 18:41, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't see any reason to be listing all the releases that use this technology! The list will keep growing and growing and I am sure websites will cover it, wiki doesn't need to. Perhaps just some examples will do nicely. Tyros1972 ( talk) 13:35, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I removed NeoTV 550 from the list of devices with Cinavia protection. Back in February 2011, there was a lot of noise about this player being infested with Cinavia. However, when it hit the market, there was no Cinavia on it. Until anybody can confirm that a firmware update has been released that includes Cinavia detection, NeoTV should not be in this list. TrondM ( talk) 12:40, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
The current version of this article exclusively references verance.com (the developer's website) and cinavia.com (the website by the developer about the technology); both are primary sources and we need reliable, independent, secondary sources to achieve verifiability. — danhash ( talk) 15:19, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
As audio-watermarking on Blu-ray Discs introduces artifacts into lossless audio streams (within the human hearing frequency range), it is loathed by audiophiles as this necessarily means that all lossless audio tracks containing Cinavia are in fact no longer lossless. Thus future versions of watermarking will probably be applied to the (lossy) video streams rather than audio streams, as video streams are not lossless to begin with and so adding imperceptible artifacts will not be noticeable. - 168.140.181.4 ( talk) 18:48, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
lossless is just a container format, which in fact has nothing to do with how it compares to the "original master". Lossless just means the audio has not been lossy compressed that's all. If "audiophiles" knew anything they'd understand there is no such thing as lossles when it comes to digital sampling, only analog is truly continuous and lossless. Tyros1972 ( talk) 13:31, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
Cinavia's technique is to use what they regard as an inaudible distortion (phase-domain) of the audio signal(s). whether or not this is actually discernable by "golden ears" or normal people or dogs or whatever remains to be proven, but for releases that are audio-only or especially feature audio content, it defeats the object of the high-resolution, high bitrate digital disc, which is to try to approach the transparency of a good analogue rendering of the content. Duncanrmi ( talk) 16:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I have removed a large amount of unsourced information from the article. We do not need to list every player with Cinavia or every Blu-ray or other release with Cinavia. Such lists are not necessary, they are unmaintainable, and they are not relevant to the article (major notable players such as the PlayStation 3 may deserve mention, but not every single player). There are plenty of other online resources for users wishing to learn about a specific player or release's implementation of Cinavia or lack thereof. One way to determine if a player is notable enough for inclusion in this article is if the player has its own Wikipedia article and there are reliable, secondary sources discussing the player's inclusion or lack of Cinavia. One way to determine if a film, Blu-ray, or other type of release is notable enough for inclusion in this article is if there are reliable, secondary sources documenting Cinavia's effect on consumers relating to that specific film/release. Entries based off of information gathered from cams, screeners, workprints, R5s, telesyncs, telecines, and the like is not eligible for inclusion unless a reliable source can be found and cited stating the presence or absence of Cinavia for that release. — danhash ( talk) 14:58, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
put a link to the list if you think it's valuable for purposes of providing examples of this "protection" or an idea of how widespread is its use. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duncanrmi ( talk • contribs) 16:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Bluray.com shows the back cover of blurays with the watermark logo, you nerds need to find something better to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.186.195.29 ( talk) 04:52, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Cinavia is only able to detect the watermark if HDMI audio output is enabled. If one disables the HDMI output, and uses another audio output, for example TOSLINK or analog RCA audio connectors, Cinavia won't work and the user is able to watch pirated movies without being interrupted. (Posted @ [www.infobarrel.com/Cinavia_Message_Code_Workaround]) - Torriedekat ( talk) 18:47, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
I think the OP in this section is missing the point; the watermark works by telling the player to look for a key elsewhere on the disc. if the player cannot find it, there WILL BE NO AUDIO decoded, HDMI or TOSlink or RCA jacks, whatever. That's how it works. Duncanrmi ( talk) 16:30, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
I think you dont understand how this works. The player has to read an audio stream for some time period (a good few seconds) in the first place to be able to know if it should validate movie or BD protected content via Cinavia. If it doesnt get to read the audio stream then it doesnt trigger the cinavia warning. I have personally validated that this work around is correct and valid both for the PS3 and at least 1 commercial BD player, 195.110.70.45 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:10, 16 July 2012 (UTC) {{ User:ClueBot III/ArchiveNow}}
Another workaround would of course be not to use a Bluray player at all. A home-built HTPC wouldn't care about Cinavia, right? I love how sometimes problems solve themselves. 83.250.172.154 ( talk) 11:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
If you don't use a BD player then how is it a "workaround"? A workaround would be to use the BD Player and some how fool it to bypass Cinavia on an unauthorized copy. Tyros1972 ( talk) 21:18, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
I think a criticism section would be worth while. I'm sure there are lots. but i have read a great deal of criticism over the use of DTS-HD master audio, lossless, in conjunction with Cinavia. Principally that if there i an audio watermark then the audio can't be lossless. Anyone want to take this on. Flagpolewiki ( talk) 15:00, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Upon further research, I have decided to remove the article. There are 2 lossless audio formats for blu-Ray, DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD Lossless (which also claims the same thing).
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/home-theater/dolby-truehd.html 'Dolby® TrueHD is a 100 percent lossless audio format that ensures you’ll experience movies and music that are identical to the studio masters '
Obviously it is because it is a file format (i.e. not lossy) so if Cinavia is used on the Studio Master, they will as stated make a bit identical copy.
I don't see any evidence to support your claims, it appears as I said you are misinterpreting what the term lossless means and is being used for. I don't see this making any sense, unless of course you don't know what lossless means. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tyros1972 ( talk • contribs) 08:35, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
Apparent Cinavia patents (transcribed + formatted as best I can). List as given in the list originally posted at AVSForum by AV journalist "Ruined"; and subsequently linked highlight on Wikipedia by User:Tyros1972 yesterday [2].
This product incorporates proprietary technology under license from Verance Corporation and is protected by U.S. Patent 7,369,677 and other …
{{
cite book}}
: |first=
missing |last=
(
help); |work=
ignored (
help) which is
US patent 7369677, Petrovic, Rade; Tehranchi, Babak & Winograd, Joseph M., "System reactions to the detection of embedded watermarks in a digital host content", published 26 October 2006, issued 6 May 2008, assigned to Verance Corporation —
Sladen (
talk)
23:25, 4 September 2012 (UTC)OK I understand now. The way you worded it above would be easier to understand concerning that, but other then that, the article is fine as is. Tyros1972 ( talk) 14:46, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
{{
cite thesis}}
: CS1 maint: unrecognized language (
link) —
Sladen (
talk)
09:44, 4 September 2012 (UTC)An "Encryption Method" info box was added. Except... Cinavia is not an encryption method. It does nothing to encrypt anything. It is a watermark. The logo was also deleted. I've not the time or the energy to fight or edit war with anyone. But I'd at least like to point out somewhere (here I guess) the inaccuracy of calling Cinavia an "encryption." - Artificial Silence ( talk) 04:48, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
image=
field again. —
Sladen (
talk)
06:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)I would like to see a list of discs that use Cinavia protection (probably on a new, related page), but I am not sure if it would be appropriate for Wikipedia. I found a list at http://blog.dvdfab.com/cinavia-protection.html, but I do not know if it is kept current or not. A list that everyone could contribute to would be helpful. Your opinions? Raran75 ( talk) 20:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Cinavia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:34, 7 August 2017 (UTC)